Author Topic: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?  (Read 40412 times)

HAULIN3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 75
  • Location: ILLINOIS
  • Plant Strong!

Josiecat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2014, 03:43:24 PM »
I used to but now I don't.  We all pay taxes to support they folks in one way or another (food stamps, Medicaid, rental assistance, etc.).  They need to utilize the services provided to them.

Cookie

  • Guest
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2014, 11:34:01 PM »
I once tried to give someone a McDonald's $20 gift card so he could buy food. He refused. Now I just donate to actual charities.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2014, 12:31:11 AM »

I once tried to give someone a McDonald's $20 gift card so he could buy food. He refused. Now I just donate to actual charities.

Cue (and queue) the line of people saying they don't blame him, and that McDonalds doesn't sell food, etc. ;)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

libertarian4321

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2014, 04:05:13 AM »
Not directly.  We donate money to our local food bank.

Most of these people need serious help, but I don't want it to go to drugs or booze, so food banks it is.

Same here.  That way, I can be sure hungry people will be fed, and not spend the money on drink or drugs.

Elderwood17

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 523
  • Location: Western North Carolina
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2014, 05:16:55 AM »
I don't.

I have noticed a trend where they will have a dog with them.  One of my friends gives money in those cases with the rationale that th dog shouldn't have to suffer for the humans mistakes or misfortune.  The cynic in me sees it as just a ploy. To get that very response.

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3367
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2014, 05:36:44 AM »
There was a women picking through the trash at a grocery store and she looked homeless. I was about 24 and had a cart full of food. I offered her some food and she yelled at me stating that she didn't need any help. I guess that I learned that you shouldn't offer, only respond to requests. This was in the suburbs of Chicago.

When I lived in San Diego I loved saying no to panhandlers who were kids (18-22) hanging out at the beach during the summer. They would hang out at a breakfast place that I would frequent often after surfing in the morning. I would call them out and ask where they came from because I didn't see them here 2 weeks ago. Are you local? Where did you grow up? How did you get here? If someone wants to travel and live out of their van for a summer, that is great. Go for it. I actually have plans to do the same. However, please do not ask me to support your vacation. 

chouchouu

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2014, 05:54:13 AM »
No, for various reasons.

However, if I see someone selling The Big Issue, I go out of my way to buy it and chat briefly with the seller. The people selling the Big Issue genuinely have issues (ie have been screened by the organisation) and it's considered by them to be a job. ie they're not begging, they're working and that is a very different mindset.

I used to buy the big issue and give to a guy at Circular Quay. We ended up chatting and became friends. One week he was complaining about how the SMH did an article on him and now he was getting job offers. I congratulated him and he told me didn't want to get another job because then he would have to pay child support to his "bitch ex-wife!" I just avoided him after that.

I generally don't give to beggars anymore. I prefer giving to charities that support the homeless, particularly homeless youth.

chouchouu

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2014, 06:00:38 AM »
I don't.

I have noticed a trend where they will have a dog with them.  One of my friends gives money in those cases with the rationale that th dog shouldn't have to suffer for the humans mistakes or misfortune.  The cynic in me sees it as just a ploy. To get that very response.

Actually many homeless have dogs because they're lonely and need the unconditional love that a dog gives. Tgere is a strong correlation between homeless and mental health conditions and abuse. At the youth shelters they're always asking for people to donate dog food and medicine. The dogs are very well cared for and loved, as well as companionship they give the homeless person a feeling of being needed which is very important to someone without a home or people they can rely on.

little_owl

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Location: DC Metro
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2014, 06:15:54 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OQjlzh279E

Good video...except: "Happiness comes from productive work," at the end - I'd say "happiness comes from being able to enjoy the fruits of your productive work...in FIRE!" :)

I don't ever, EVER give to panhandlers.  Newp.

FreeWheel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2014, 08:04:48 AM »
Thanks to the wise advice given by mustachians replying to this thread, I no longer give money to panhandlers. Now each one gets a dog.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2075
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2014, 09:13:29 AM »
I just got back from New Orleans yesterday, which has lots of panhandlers. While there, my wife saw a couple of them high five each other outside a convenience store after they got enough donations and one of them said, "Now we can get some weed!"

neophyte

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2014, 05:52:36 PM »
There are a lot of panhandlers and homeless around here.  I don't recognize most of the panhandlers from week to week.  They can be anyone from high school kids goofing off and just trying to see if they get money to down-and-out looking older middle aged folks.  I usually don't trust them or give them money.

We have a few regular homeless people that stick around.  Most of them are quite mentally ill and I've never even seen most of them ask for money.  It's sad because they seem to refuse the help available to them, but they are apparently functional enough that they can't be committed.  One guy will be all smiles and waves one day and ranting incoherently the next.  I don't give them money because (1) they don't ask and (2) I'm slightly worried that they would react unexpectedly and even perhaps violently.

One time while I was carrying groceries home a man very politely asked me if I would give him some food, and I did give him two pears.  He seemed grateful and ate one of them immediately.

I have been avoiding the park near my place lately because the last time I was there a woman came up to me pretty aggressively and asked for money 'to buy food' while her 7 or 8 year old daughter was following her.  It really bothered me.  I just told her I didn't have any cash and left.  I feel sorry for that kid.  What a horrible example for her.


momoneymama

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2014, 08:32:59 PM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2014, 06:09:31 AM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

rocksinmyhead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Location: Oklahoma
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2014, 07:00:05 AM »
I don't.

I have noticed a trend where they will have a dog with them.  One of my friends gives money in those cases with the rationale that th dog shouldn't have to suffer for the humans mistakes or misfortune.  The cynic in me sees it as just a ploy. To get that very response.

Actually many homeless have dogs because they're lonely and need the unconditional love that a dog gives. Tgere is a strong correlation between homeless and mental health conditions and abuse. At the youth shelters they're always asking for people to donate dog food and medicine. The dogs are very well cared for and loved, as well as companionship they give the homeless person a feeling of being needed which is very important to someone without a home or people they can rely on.

I'm kinda torn on this. on the one hand, it's like, you can't even take care of yourself, why would you try to also take care of a dog?! knowing how hard it is to find housing when you have a dog (even as a person with a job and money, and no mental illness or drug issues), I can't imagine that it's helpful for them to have that extra barrier to stable housing. but I see your point too, and I just tell myself that maybe they already had the dog when they became homeless, and don't want to give it up in case it ends up euthanized. I totally feel for that. here in Tulsa we have a group that provides dog food and vet care for pets of the homeless, so I guess that's a good thing.

There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

+1000

major pet peeve of mine is when these churchy people from the suburbs come in and give money and stuff to the ne'er do wells in our neighborhood. if  you care about them so damn much, bring them back to Owasso with you! argh. I hope I don't offend anyone by comparing people to animals with this analogous story, but we also had a major feral cat problem in our 'hood for a while, and this woman who didn't even live here would drive in and FEED them!!! my boyfriend and I tried to talk to her once and explain why this was NOT helpful, and she just talked over us and didn't listen at all and basically was really stupid and rude. I get so mad just thinking about it. go fuck up your own neighborhood and get your misplaced "charity" projects out of mine, you're just making it worse.

We have a few regular homeless people that stick around.  Most of them are quite mentally ill and I've never even seen most of them ask for money.  It's sad because they seem to refuse the help available to them, but they are apparently functional enough that they can't be committed.  One guy will be all smiles and waves one day and ranting incoherently the next.  I don't give them money because (1) they don't ask and (2) I'm slightly worried that they would react unexpectedly and even perhaps violently.

I agree, these are the ones that make me really sad, and I feel like there is nothing I can do about it, or at least I don't know what to do.

neophyte

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2014, 08:45:48 AM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

Sorry, but I want to second (third?) this.  You don't know who really needs it and who doesn't.  You also don't know who is safe and who isn't.  A lot of people ended up in those circumstances through more than just bad luck and poor financial decision making.

A few weeks ago, a woman who lives 4 or 5 blocks from me was assaulted by a homeless man and strangled with a hanger as she walked to her car. The neighbors intervened and called the police, but it almost wasn't in time.  She'll be ok, but I don't want to end up in that situation  :(

A few months ago, a woman living in not-as-nice an area was followed home on public transportation by a panhandler.  He followed her to her home, forced his way in, and raped her. I don't want to end up in her situation either  :(

Both those guys now have a warm room to live in and three square meals a day courtesy of the Department of Corrections.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 08:52:29 AM by neophyte »

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2014, 11:57:12 AM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

Sorry, but I want to second (third?) this.  You don't know who really needs it and who doesn't.  You also don't know who is safe and who isn't.  A lot of people ended up in those circumstances through more than just bad luck and poor financial decision making.

A few weeks ago, a woman who lives 4 or 5 blocks from me was assaulted by a homeless man and strangled with a hanger as she walked to her car. The neighbors intervened and called the police, but it almost wasn't in time.  She'll be ok, but I don't want to end up in that situation  :(

A few months ago, a woman living in not-as-nice an area was followed home on public transportation by a panhandler.  He followed her to her home, forced his way in, and raped her. I don't want to end up in her situation either  :(

Both those guys now have a warm room to live in and three square meals a day courtesy of the Department of Corrections.

I can't seem to draw a conclusion from your anecdotes, other than mentally ill people often end up homeless.  How does this relate on whether or not to give someone money?

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2014, 12:01:50 PM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

How does it harm you?  I could see how it might cause a minor inconvenience, but harm?

Stlbroke

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2014, 12:13:09 PM »
I always keep one and five dollar bills in my car to give to people at the highway off ramps. I don't care if they use it for food beer or drugs, whatever helps them thru the day.  Maybe they have severe PTSD from the military?  I don't know their story and I'm not going to assume they have a BMW parked behind the corner. 

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2014, 12:26:56 PM »
There are not many in my town, but when I travel to big cities, I put x amount of money in my pocket and give it to those who ask until its gone. Some people really need it, some don't. It's not for me to decide. But I find comfort in helping when I can.

I hate to continue to be negative, but this sort of thing just really pisses me off. I live in a big city, and have to deal with the consequences of your misplaced "comfort." You are harming me and everyone else who lives in a big city. Knock it off!

If you want to insist on giving to the homeless, do it in your own neighborhood. Don't waltz into mine and give me more problems!

How does it harm you?  I could see how it might cause a minor inconvenience, but harm?

  • At least a non-negligible minority of them actually are dangerous (either because they are criminals or because they're mentally ill).
  • They drive away tourists, business development and potential residents, increasing my taxes and decreasing my property value.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2014, 12:47:40 PM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.  Therefore, #1 will always be an issue.  I'm not sure about your #2.  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?  This seems greatly exaggerated.  San Francisco is like the homeless capital of the country and they don't seem to have a problem bringing in tourists, business development, or potential residents.  LA also. 


FreeWheel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2014, 01:22:57 PM »
I always keep one and five dollar bills in my car to give to people at the highway off ramps. I don't care if they use it for food beer or drugs, whatever helps them thru the day.  Maybe they have severe PTSD from the military?  I don't know their story and I'm not going to assume they have a BMW parked behind the corner.

^^^This. I believe the majority of panhandlers are truly in need for one reason or another. If a few turn out to be scammers who don't really need or deserve my dollar, it's not gonna hurt me.

FreeWheel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2014, 01:26:53 PM »
  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?   

No. Everyone is good at avoiding panhandlers when they want/need to. It's not hard at all. Just ask Jack.

Cpa Cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2014, 01:43:37 PM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.  Therefore, #1 will always be an issue.  I'm not sure about your #2.  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?  This seems greatly exaggerated.  San Francisco is like the homeless capital of the country and they don't seem to have a problem bringing in tourists, business development, or potential residents.  LA also.

Once, I politely declined to give a panhandler money and he got up and followed me to my car, yelling "Wh@re!" and saying he could take what he wanted from me and that I'd like it, because I'm a wh@re. I have to admit, that incident greatly diminished my desire to walk around and frequent the businesses in the area where that man was a regular.

Since my encounter, the businesses in the popular downtown panhandling location have made a concerted lobbying effort to change how the city deals with the homeless. They've had some success. They installed "donation meters" and encouraged people to donate to the meters instead of the panhandlers. They also asked for, and I believe they received, increased police presence/action.

Obviously, those businesses felt it was a big problem. And anecdotally, it does affect how someone views an area. Things are probably different in larger cities.

Not giving money directly to panhandlers isn't some magic cure for homelessness - but it hopefully encourages them to move elsewhere - and hopefully to make use of the services that are in place to help them. For those who are able to make use of help, that's a good thing. For those who are beyond help - maybe it's better than having them interacting with people in a potentially harmful way.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2014, 02:02:00 PM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.

If nobody gave them money [on the street], they'd be forced to use the myriad legitimate resources available to them, ranging from the Metro Atlanta Task Force for the Homeless to the Atlanta Community Food Bank to the Mad Housers to the hundreds (or maybe thousands?) of religious institutions (just counting the ones within the city limits!) that do charity work. They'd get actual help that would address their long-term needs and hopefully would get off the street and back into mainstream society.

If you really want to help people, volunteer at a shelter or something -- at an organization that has people with the skills to determine that your actions as a volunteer would genuinely improve the situation. Otherwise, you're clearly just interested in yourself and how your fake charity makes you feel instead of actually helping somebody else. That's narcissism, not charity.

Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?  This seems greatly exaggerated.  San Francisco is like the homeless capital of the country and they don't seem to have a problem bringing in tourists, business development, or potential residents.  LA also.

I've never been to LA or San Francisco, so I don't know what they're like. Maybe people visiting San Francisco are hippies and want to "commune" with the panhandlers, for all I know. But in Atlanta, a lot of the tourism is business conventions, and having poverty (especially on display) is bad for business.

I always keep one and five dollar bills in my car to give to people at the highway off ramps. I don't care if they use it for food beer or drugs, whatever helps them thru the day.  Maybe they have severe PTSD from the military?  I don't know their story and I'm not going to assume they have a BMW parked behind the corner.

^^^This. I believe the majority of panhandlers are truly in need for one reason or another. If a few turn out to be scammers who don't really need or deserve my dollar, it's not gonna hurt me.

Yeah, maybe it doesn't hurt you. But that's not the issue. Maybe that dollar helps keep the panhandler's drug dealer in business. Then, when a rival gang does a drive by on that drug dealer's house and a stray bullet hits some law-abiding neighbor's kid, your dollar contributed to it.

It's hyperbole, but I hope you get the point. There's a whole system surrounding panhandling, substance abuse, homelessness and crime that your misplaced "charity" perpetuates.

  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?   

No. Everyone is good at avoiding panhandlers when they want/need to. It's not hard at all. Just ask Jack.

That's not true. It's a skill learned from experience. Until you've lived in a big city, you just don't fucking get it!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:06:03 PM by Jack »

poppi4

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2014, 02:06:41 PM »
When I was a child, my grandmother would would fill her purse with homemade PB&J sandwiches or cheese & cracker snack packs to give away when we went into the city.  One time she even packaged up leftover birthday cake to give out.    Usually this effort was met with anger instead of gratitude, and in a few very scary instances the beggar actually threw the food back at us.  But it didn't matter, she still filled her purse EVERY time we went into the city. 

I guess I should have learned generosity without judgement from that.     Instead I learned to never give to panhandlers (but do try to be generous otherwise!)

rocksinmyhead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Location: Oklahoma
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2014, 02:31:17 PM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.  Therefore, #1 will always be an issue.  I'm not sure about your #2.  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?  This seems greatly exaggerated.  San Francisco is like the homeless capital of the country and they don't seem to have a problem bringing in tourists, business development, or potential residents.  LA also.

no, they wouldn't cease to exist, but they (at least the reasonably functional people) obviously will congregate in places where they are able to panhandle successfully. if they can't, they will either leave or try to seek help (and in my area there is a day center for the homeless as well as numerous church-based and other charities that provide shelter, hot meals, help getting services, etc.) I try to make my neighborhood inhospitable to panhandlers by NOT giving them money, talking with the new liquor store that just opened up about what kind of liquor they are planning to sell (please please please not the cheap stuff in small quantities), and calling the police when I see suspicious activity. it sucks to have this counteracted by people who DON'T live here, coming in and making the neighborhood MORE hospitable to panhandlers by giving them money.

with regard to #2, not everywhere is like SF or LA, e.g. enough of a draw to overcome the downside of tons of homeless. downtown Tulsa was a ghost town inhabited primarily by the homeless for years. if going to dinner and a show downtown meant being hassled by panhandlers or the mentally ill, it was easier for people who lived in midtown/South Tulsa and the suburbs to just stay in their part of town. downtown is just now coming back with new bars and restaurants, abandoned buildings being rehabbed, etc. but it's an ongoing struggle to keep people from being harassed. downtown business owners, residents (there still aren't that many of us but the numbers are growing), the cops and the city are working really hard to keep the good momentum going, and it's fucking annoying to see people come in from out of town and encourage panhandling. there are PLENTY of churches, charities, and other places for people to go downtown to get free shelter and a hot meal, that do not involve harassing people going about their business. I guess you could say fine, let downtown go to shit and the rest of the city will be fine, but I think it's kind of embarrassing for a decent sized city to have a central business district that goes dead after 5 PM, and doesn't do much for the quality of life in the city as a whole.

rocksinmyhead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Location: Oklahoma
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2014, 02:33:10 PM »
Obviously, those businesses felt it was a big problem. And anecdotally, it does affect how someone views an area. Things are probably different in larger cities.

I think this is part of it. I've been to SF several times and I know it's not a good analogy for Tulsa. I think the homeless/panhandling effect may be more detrimental in small to medium sized cities.

Okara

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2014, 02:43:01 PM »
In my neighbourhood we do have a problem with panhandlers. Also, in my neighbourhood, there are folks who for many reasons are considered homeless. Our city and province provide plenty of services. Do I ever give money to panhandlers? Sometimes, depending on a variety of factors, mostly subjective. I donate a bit of time and money and crocheted items to various local groups.

As to homeless with a dog to feed - it makes sense to have a dog for comfort, for groundedness, and also for protection. One thing not mentioned in above comments is the fact that the homeless are often victimized, beaten, robbed, pepper-sprayed by thugs, etc. It's a rather ugly situation for them and having a dog can discourage attackers. I don't give to them - they know the system.

And yes, I've seen groups of professional beggars hopping into luxury vans, shedding old grubby clothes and switching to their high end gear at the end of shift while the next shift does the opposite. Then they all ride away on bikes that would cost me half a year's income. ~20K.

But subjectively speaking, one guy had a regular spot on Davie Street. He always had a smile and a friendly greeting. Sometimes I gave him a bit of cash, sometimes I sat and shared a sandwich and conversation. Last time I saw him he was thrilled that he had finally been allotted a small room with a door he could close and lock (that was very important to him) at a Home in the south end of town. Up to then he'd been sleeping under a bridge, preferring that to being beaten or having his meagre belongings stolen (usually shoes) in the homeless shelters. I offered him a twoonie for bus fare. He gave me change as he only needed 75 cents more to get to the place. Two days after moving into his new, safe home he was dead. There was a small memorial at his "spot", flowers placed by neighbourhood folks for about 6 weeks.

There's another, haven't seen him for awhile. Plays the panpipes. Lovely. He's earning his way. And another homeless man helped trash collectors move the big bins upslope to the trucks in exchange for digging out recyclable cans and bottles. Homeless for the same reasons as mentioned above. He was very clear about being a working man and I suspect would be insulted if offered money or food. Sharing conversation, a smoke and a coffee was just fine. He ended up in hospital with pneumonia brought on by lung damage when two local, upright young citizens pepper sprayed him. Haven't seen him in 2 years. Point being, each of these people are individual human beings, with stories, lives, motivations, demons. They do the best they can and if they F*'d up - well, who are we to judge? Just stop and chat, say hello, recognize them for pete's sake!
Just be smart enough to learn the difference between scammers and neighbours, eh. ;)

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2014, 02:56:54 PM »
Neuro-normative people aren't chronically homeless.

Ding! ding! ding!
So many homeless people are where they are because they have difficulty fitting into a system. So while there are a lot of resources available to the homeless, the cray-crays aren't helped by them and tend to fall through the cracks.  So, I feel sympathy for them and want to help. But the people who would most need this kind of help are the people who are most likely to be crazy jerks who can't get along with anyone. I get that maybe it's a biological condition and they can't help being anti-social, but it does sort of dry up the milk of human kindness.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2014, 03:24:07 PM »
if going to dinner and a show downtown meant being hassled by panhandlers or the mentally ill, it was easier for people who lived in midtown/South Tulsa and the suburbs to just stay in their part of town. ... I guess you could say fine, let downtown go to shit and the rest of the city will be fine, but I think it's kind of embarrassing for a decent sized city to have a central business district that goes dead after 5 PM, and doesn't do much for the quality of life in the city as a whole.

Indeed: in that sense, panhandling contributes to urban sprawl, so giving money to panhandlers is anti-mustachian on top of everything else.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2014, 03:32:16 PM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.

If nobody gave them money [on the street], they'd be forced to use the myriad legitimate resources available to them, ranging from the Metro Atlanta Task Force for the Homeless to the Atlanta Community Food Bank to the Mad Housers to the hundreds (or maybe thousands?) of religious institutions (just counting the ones within the city limits!) that do charity work. They'd get actual help that would address their long-term needs and hopefully would get off the street and back into mainstream society.

If you really want to help people, volunteer at a shelter or something -- at an organization that has people with the skills to determine that your actions as a volunteer would genuinely improve the situation. Otherwise, you're clearly just interested in yourself and how your fake charity makes you feel instead of actually helping somebody else. That's narcissism, not charity.

I'm aware that there are many services designed to help the homeless.  I'm just wondering if maybe the services offered are not so great as to completely take the place of any need for money at all.  If the services were so encompassing, homelessness would no longer be an issue.  You seem to think that someone who is homeless doesn't need currency for anything.  I tend to disagree.

Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?  This seems greatly exaggerated.  San Francisco is like the homeless capital of the country and they don't seem to have a problem bringing in tourists, business development, or potential residents.  LA also.

I've never been to LA or San Francisco, so I don't know what they're like. Maybe people visiting San Francisco are hippies and want to "commune" with the panhandlers, for all I know. But in Atlanta, a lot of the tourism is business conventions, and having poverty (especially on display) is bad for business.

Was this a serious response?  I hope it was just a bad joke that failed.

I always keep one and five dollar bills in my car to give to people at the highway off ramps. I don't care if they use it for food beer or drugs, whatever helps them thru the day.  Maybe they have severe PTSD from the military?  I don't know their story and I'm not going to assume they have a BMW parked behind the corner.

^^^This. I believe the majority of panhandlers are truly in need for one reason or another. If a few turn out to be scammers who don't really need or deserve my dollar, it's not gonna hurt me.

Yeah, maybe it doesn't hurt you. But that's not the issue. Maybe that dollar helps keep the panhandler's drug dealer in business. Then, when a rival gang does a drive by on that drug dealer's house and a stray bullet hits some law-abiding neighbor's kid, your dollar contributed to it.

It's hyperbole, but I hope you get the point. There's a whole system surrounding panhandling, substance abuse, homelessness and crime that your misplaced "charity" perpetuates.

It's obvious this isn't a serious response.  For all of your yelling at other people on this thread, trying to shame them into behaving exactly like you do, it sure seems like you're more interested in yelling than actually responding. 

  Do tourists really avoid areas where people ask them for money?   

No. Everyone is good at avoiding panhandlers when they want/need to. It's not hard at all. Just ask Jack.

That's not true. It's a skill learned from experience. Until you've lived in a big city, you just don't fucking get it!

I've lived in a big city for a decade.  Apparently there must be another qualification to "get it".

FreeWheel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2014, 03:39:45 PM »
Jack, you and others make some valid points for not giving, and I'm listening. But I'm not convinced it's as black and white as you seem to believe. Sometimes, giving can help the recipient and not hurt anyone else.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2014, 04:08:58 PM »
I don't give money, just food if I have any extra on me. You just never know if they're really in need. For example, yesterday I was getting gas and this dude hit me up for a gallon or two. I declined, but the woman next to me offered and gave me the stink eye, as if I was a bad person. While she was helping him he kept saying he was trying to get back home to Florida. She pumped and left. The guy then drove away. His plates were from our county. I was glad I didn't help him.
Reminds me of an article we read in college -- must've been in our school newspaper because I remember a bunch of us talking about it together:  Someone did an experiment and determined that the #1 money-making panhandling scam was for a young, clean-cut college-aged student to go to the airport and say to people, "I'm a student at ____ college, and I'm heading home.  My flight has been delayed, and I need to let my parents know.  Could you give me a couple dollars for a phone call?"  The people who did the experiment found that people picked up HUNDREDS in one day with this scam.  One guy who I considered a good friend said, "Wow, Thanksgiving's coming up -- I know where I'm getting my Christmas money!"  And he did.  He was from an upperclass family who supported him in luxury.  I found it hard to remain friends with him after that.

You might already be saying, This was definitely in the past -- and you'd be right.  Obviously, this was in the days when:
- You didn't have to have a ticket to go into the airport
- No one had a cell phone
- No one could easily check flights on a computer


FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
  • Location: ME
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2014, 04:18:23 PM »
Well after reading this thread. I will be discussing this with the wife tonight. I don't usually give to panhandlers, but I recently moved from the southeast to the northwest and there are definitely more beggars in this part of the country. Last week I gave $10 to an older guy because I happened to have that bill in my wallet, but I think this thread has made me change my mind. I've been known to hand out $5 McDonalds cards or food if I have it with me, but it sounds better to just make a regular donation to the local food bank/shelter.

Lyssa

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
  • Location: Germany
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2014, 04:08:04 AM »

Once, I politely declined to give a panhandler money and he got up and followed me to my car, yelling "Wh@re!" and saying he could take what he wanted from me and that I'd like it, because I'm a wh@re. I have to admit, that incident greatly diminished my desire to walk around and frequent the businesses in the area where that man was a regular.


This reminds me of one obviously mentally ill panhandler who used to frequent a trainstation which I had to use to get to school. He used to incoherently ramble about all those "whoring Evas" while walking up and down the platform and gesturing. While being mentally ill in itself is not sufficient reason to be institutionalized I think if somebody explicitly or implicitly is threatening those around him that should suffice.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2014, 06:52:13 AM »
If the services were so encompassing, homelessness would no longer be an issue.

The services themselves are harmed by panhandling:

First, giving panhandlers cash on the street makes people feel like they've fulfilled their philanthropic "obligation" and gives them an excuse not to volunteer at or donate to the services.

Second, and more importantly, the services are comprehensive, but they're not easy. Until all easier-but-less-helpful alternatives are eliminated, some people will choose to exploit your misguided enabling instead of availing themselves of the services.

Was this a serious response?  I hope it was just a bad joke that failed.

What part of "I've never been to LA or San Francisco, so I don't know" did you fail to understand? The existence of a joke, bad or otherwise, doesn't give you an excuse to ignore the rest.

There's a whole system surrounding panhandling, substance abuse, homelessness and crime that your misplaced "charity" perpetuates.

It's obvious this isn't a serious response.  For all of your yelling at other people on this thread, trying to shame them into behaving exactly like you do, it sure seems like you're more interested in yelling than actually responding. 

Should I assume by the fact that you've resorted to ad-hominem attacks that you have no legitimate arguments left?

Jack, you and others make some valid points for not giving, and I'm listening. But I'm not convinced it's as black and white as you seem to believe. Sometimes, giving can help the recipient and not hurt anyone else.

No, I completely agree: it's possible for a situation to exist where giving money to a panhandler genuinely helps them and doesn't do any collateral damage.

I'm merely arguing that (a) that situation is very unlikely compared to the situation where giving the panhandler money would cause harm, and (b) it's nigh-impossible for you, not being trained in social work and/or having time to investigate the panhandler's circumstances, to conclusively determine which situation you're in (especially since, in the likely scenario, the panhandler is actively trying to deceive you). Therefore, you must assume you're in the much more likely scenario and act accordingly.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against charity. I'm merely arguing for appropriate and effective charity. If you want to be charitable, go volunteer in a soup kitchen. Or build a house with Habitat for Humanity (or even the Mad Housers*). Or mentor at-risk youth and help prevent the homelessness in the first place. Or if you really want to give money instead of time, donate to an organization that is better equipped than you are to decide how to use the money effectively.

Of course, those types of appropriate and effective charity require more effort and forethought than simply forking over cash when prompted by a panhandler. In that sense, giving to panhandlers is the "bedpan-and-catheter" of philanthropy. We mustachians are better than that, are we not?

(* I'm a little ambivalent about the Mad Housers, since it could be argued that they're making homelessness more comfortable rather than ending it.... but at least they're an improvement over giving cash to panhandlers.)

HopefulMustache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2014, 08:40:44 AM »
Okay, but I feel like there's a missing link here.  Certainly you're not claiming that if no one gave them money, homeless people would cease to exist.

If nobody gave them money [on the street], they'd be forced to use the myriad legitimate resources available to them, ranging from the Metro Atlanta Task Force for the Homeless to the Atlanta Community Food Bank to the Mad Housers to the hundreds (or maybe thousands?) of religious institutions (just counting the ones within the city limits!) that do charity work. They'd get actual help that would address their long-term needs and hopefully would get off the street and back into mainstream society.

I think the sad fact is, if nobody gave any money on the street, while panhandling scammers would vanish and many needy persons would wisely change tactics in accordance with the system, a non-negligible percentage of the homeless would simply suffer as they either can't or won't adapt. They would probably sicken more and head to the ER on your dime, and eventually die sooner.

I think most of us on this board support your assertion that the problem will only be truly solved by giving to charitable organizations. A study in my city has shown it's far cheaper (by about $9K per year per person) for a chronically homeless individual to be given subsidized housing and supportive care than to allow them to live on the street - and we should ABSOLUTELY be supporting initiatives directing resources for more subsidized housing, and lessening the need for both direct aid and emergency shelters. (I think you and I could probably have a good chat on why emergency shelters are a bad idea from an efficiency standpoint too, at least the way we do it in my state).

Unfortunately, we're not there yet, and some people still need help on the streets (and a bed in a shelter). So while we're working to improve the charitable causes that are solving the problem, we can't forget that some percentage of immediate need on the street is legitimate. Hopefully, one day it won't be.

Quote from: jack
That's not true. It's a skill learned from experience. Until you've lived in a big city, you just don't fucking get it!

I don't mean to get personal with you, but, well, this is you getting personal with us. I really think most of us agree with most of what you're saying. And many of us, like myself, are from big cities. There's no need for that kind of arguing... it's more just venting, and not persuasive.

Quote from: jack
No, I completely agree: it's possible for a situation to exist where giving money to a panhandler genuinely helps them and doesn't do any collateral damage.

This is why I think you agree with the main point I made above. We're pulling in the same direction by advocating for more efficient giving. I just think the goal of efficiency needs to be guided primarily by a compassionate understanding that the need could be real, along with the mathematical understanding that it probably isn't.

In short - you seem to be advocating for 100% efficient giving, and against 100% blind compassion. I definitely value efficiency but don't think 100% either way is ideal (in just about anything, really). To an extent, that's probably just a personality thing, so we may disagree about that eternally.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2014, 09:27:56 AM »
MOD NOTE: Please try to argue or advocate for your perspective without being rude to those who disagree with you.  Thanks.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2014, 10:29:24 AM »
Was this a serious response?  I hope it was just a bad joke that failed.
The existence of a joke, bad or otherwise, doesn't give you an excuse to ignore the rest.

Actually, I think I can.  I'm pretty sure I can ignore whatever I want.  In fact, I'm now going to ignore your intentionally inflammatory posts.  Good luck convincing everyone of how right you are while berating them.  I'm sure it'll be successful!

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2014, 10:41:14 AM »
Nope.  I'm not even nice towards them either, usually hostile. 

OddOne

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #142 on: December 31, 2014, 09:13:34 AM »
No way am I giving the son of God money.  For a variety of reasons:

- Pretty sure his dad can bail him out if he's in trouble
- He'll just use it to buy 10L of water and turn it to wine . . .
- Dude can walk on water . . . you're telling me he can't get a job as a lifeguard?

This made me laugh. Thanks GuitarStv!

MrFancypants

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #143 on: December 31, 2014, 09:22:58 AM »
Nope.  I'm not even nice towards them either, usually hostile.

Yeah, that'll teach them to be homeless.  Surely if you shame them they'll get their act together!

Grateful Stache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 196
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #144 on: December 31, 2014, 09:26:58 AM »
I have done a lot of work with the homeless population. A common misconception is that homeless people need food. However, the proliferation of the $1 cheeseburger has changed that. Homeless folks need money for basic survival. While there may be a few scammers out there, a majority of them are indeed down on their luck.

I live in a cold place, and I guarantee you that nobody wants to stand on a street corner when it's 10 degrees outside. I don't give a lot, and I don't give all the time. But do I have a few bucks to spare from time to time? Absolutely.

Cheers,

- Grateful

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5688
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2014, 09:23:33 PM »
No, I never give money to panhandlers, and living in an urban core and I do, and working downtown, I encounter homeless people daily. Of course, homeless does not equal panhandlers.

I don't give money because I don't want to encourage panhandlers hanging out in a specific spot.

I don't give money because panhandlers are out of line when they open my gate, come up my steps, and knock on my door, I'm not rewarding that crap. Even when they drag along their small children, I won't give them money for food. Yes, they've done this. I won't give them money for prescriptions for their children's medicine. Yes, they've asked me, allthe  while standing on my front steps.

The free money spigot at Chez Iris is turned off (Bobby, I am looking at you!) I do NOT like being accosted in the street to give you money (Little Black Barbie, you are on my sh*t list.) I will call cops on you. I will work with neighborhood patrol to keep you out according to any restraining order that we have in place. I will monitor your presence on my street and I will guarantee that you are moved along and out of my neighborhood.

My charitable donations go to animal and architectural interests. I don't give to human services since my tax dollars are collected to address these issues.

I've lived in an urban core neighborhood for 25 years and I've seen the same panhandler work this 'neighborhood for 25 years off and on. He once lived in our basement when our house was an abandoned shell, before we bought it. The last time he swung by my house he opened our gate to come up the steps, I yelled at him to leave, and he hightailed it outta there but left the gate open. This enrages me because our dogs are endangered when gates are open. So I took off on foot to chase him after yelling at DH to put dogs in the house and to come and find me in the car, and bring his phone. I was channeling George Zimmerman although I did not have a gun, just my wits.   :) We followed him through and finally out of the neighborhood as he look in cars and opened backyard gates. We called the cops multiple times but they never arrived in time.

 And let me just say that the bleeding hearts who have only lived here a short time simply do NOT get it that paying panhandlers to be here is paying panhandlers to be here and Guess what! They will hang out here because they are getting paid! What a concept! And even if they are non-threatening (which they seldom are) their badass buddies will show up once they learn that we are easy marks and we will experience petty thefts that jin up to breakins that escalate into crimes upon persons.


« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 09:31:16 PM by iris lily »

EricL

  • Guest
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #146 on: January 01, 2015, 04:50:03 AM »
Sometimes I can completely ignore panhandlers.  Other times I'm very happy to tell them to go to hell. At times I will even throw them a nickel or a quarter. And sometimes, rarely, if the spirit moves me, I will give them much, much, more with a smile.  Yeah, I don't like the idea that I might be manipulated by some junky or entitled loser.  But neither do I like to be manipulated by my own preconceived notion over how this person's life actually is, how deserving they are or aren't, or how much they should be able to suck off the nation's social program teat rather than rely on me. I consider myself blessed and if someone seeks to take advantage of that then that's between them and God.  At worst I'm at enabling behavior that dooms them to a greater unhappiness down the line.

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2015, 09:00:02 AM »
Nope.  I'm not even nice towards them either, usually hostile.

Yeah, that'll teach them to be homeless.  Surely if you shame them they'll get their act together!

It's not about shaming them, it's about discouraging them from begging in public.  I don't want to be accosted by panhandlers, and I doubt anyone else does either.

rocksinmyhead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Location: Oklahoma
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2015, 09:56:03 AM »
No, I never give money to panhandlers, and living in an urban core and I do, and working downtown, I encounter homeless people daily. Of course, homeless does not equal panhandlers.

...

 And let me just say that the bleeding hearts who have only lived here a short time simply do NOT get it that paying panhandlers to be here is paying panhandlers to be here and Guess what! They will hang out here because they are getting paid! What a concept! And even if they are non-threatening (which they seldom are) their badass buddies will show up once they learn that we are easy marks and we will experience petty thefts that jin up to breakins that escalate into crimes upon persons.

love your whole post, iris lily. could not agree more.

MillenialMustache

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 265
Re: Do you ever give money to panhandlers?
« Reply #149 on: January 05, 2015, 02:56:41 PM »
Almost never. Once I gave someone food - they looked really hungry and seemed very happy. Once a girl ran into Moe's (right next to the bus station) and said she needed a quarter and she was very frantic. I gave it to her.

Otherwise, absolutely not. I always say no and have never given money to someone on the freeway.

I would if I saw a Hungry Hungry Hobos sign though. That is hilarious.