Author Topic: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.  (Read 32549 times)

mies

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2017, 03:45:56 AM »
I'm also not a fan of the absolutely no credit card advice.  If you are responsible with a credit card or can learn the discipline to use one responsibly, you get an easy method to track expenses, a way to dispute purchases, cash back, or points. I almost never carry cash and try to get it in the bank ASAP. if I lose a wallet full of credit cards, I am merely inconvenienced. If I lose a wallet full of cash, I am inconvenienced and poorer.

If your finances are a total train wreck, I can see his advice being useful. If you already have a good grip on them, move along. He has nothing of value to offer and his advice will cost you in the long term.
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KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2017, 04:13:54 AM »
I've since moved on to many more interesting podcasts (MadFientist, etc.), but if you're going to listen to DR (as I still do once in a while on a long drive) be sure to listen to the podcast - there are only about 2-3 commercials per hour of content as opposed to 5 commercials every 15 minutes.

I do podcast only and my player has a little button I can punch forward 15 seconds at a time and avoid all the commercials.

KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2017, 04:17:34 AM »
I keep having this fantasy that we could somehow engineer a mustachian phone bomb to one of Dave's new "millionaire theme hours" and totally blow his standard lines about how people get to be millionaires.  All us credit card carryin', index fund totin' early retired and happy about it folk calling in on one episode would make him crazy!    I know the producers would edit us all out in the end, but it would be fun to try, especially if those episodes really are live....

They pre-arrange the millionaire hours.  You contact them in advance to get lined up on a show.

KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2017, 04:22:14 AM »
DR is a great starting point for a lot of folks. I should find Rachel Cruz more annoying -- I don't want a 28-year-old's advice on anything, let alone long-term financial planning -- but she's found a niche with speaking to younger adults and kids.

Dave is training her, and a small crew of other speakers, to be the next Dave.  He's not going to be doing radio forever, and this new team is his legacy planning, so they will be helping people for decades and decades more.  And people will still need the help to avoid buying shiny things on debt and living beyond their means.

boyerbt

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2017, 06:51:29 AM »
DR is a great starting point for a lot of folks. I should find Rachel Cruz more annoying -- I don't want a 28-year-old's advice on anything, let alone long-term financial planning -- but she's found a niche with speaking to younger adults and kids.

Dave is training her, and a small crew of other speakers, to be the next Dave.  He's not going to be doing radio forever, and this new team is his legacy planning, so they will be helping people for decades and decades more.  And people will still need the help to avoid buying shiny things on debt and living beyond their means.

I've had a recurring thought when Rachel Cruz is on the DR show and that is, "Where does your credibility come from?".

The original appeal of DR for me was that he had made the financial mistakes that it discusses on the air daily with each caller. Another DR personality, Chris Hogen, also went through financial struggles before correcting his mistakes and can speak to that. But with Rachel, this isn't the case. It is unfair assessment as there are plenty of people  who teach from education and not from experience but for some reason the information that she provides on the shows doesn't resonate with me the same way as it does coming from the other personalities because she hasn't struggled through any of the problems that are up for discussion.
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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2017, 07:09:33 AM »
I checked out one of his books from the library when I first got serious about personal finances. There is literally no one I know for whom I have so little intellectual respect that I would recommend a Dave Ramsey book/class/podcast. The entire book could have been condensed into an index card and no pertinent information would have been lost. In addition to the shallowness of information, I despise his utter disregard for nuance. No thanks.
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KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2017, 07:12:22 AM »
It's definitely not the same with Rachel, and they are positioning her differently than Dave.  First, she is the daughter of Dave Ramsey, so she grew up with good financial lessons, and she saw her parents working through some of their issues and building a mega-business.  They have had her do the Smart Money Smart Kids book because she grew up as a "smart kid", and learned about money under the system.  They are also positioning her as the millennial -- this whole don't look at the Jonses, live for your own goals.  She will be fine at it, and as a female and as a millennial, she may appeal to a new generation of savers.   What other choices do they have?  This is Rachel's inheritance, she gets a shot at the work.

But notice they are diversifying with other speakers, and over time maybe one or two will emerge as the new rock star.


KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2017, 07:16:57 AM »

Then the cherry on top was the advice he offered a lady whose parents were having financial troubles but whose house had a nice positive equity.  The parents had not worked in two years and had run up about $30k in debt.

After learning the house had about $220k in positive equity he advice the daughter to have her parents sell the house. Buy a house in the $150k range in cash. Pay off their debt and GO BACK TO WORK at 60yo for the mother and 75yo for the father.

What in the mother fucking world???

How could you calmly - actually he was speaking down about the parents for not having worked - and "advice" a 75yo person to go back to work without asking any other questions? Ramsey had no idea what type of work they did before, their health condition, their finances (other than the simple example), their retirement finances etc. 

I was listening to him in total disgust because I know they could had gotten better advice from the members here if they had done a member's case.

I think I'm done with him...

Dave Ramsey is working in the context of a call-in radio show, so he has about 1 - 3 minutes to assess the situation and give an answer.  That is why his system works so well, is it makes it fairly easy to give answers.   A major difference between Dave Ramsey and the Mustaschians, is that Dave believes in working as long as you are productive.  He isn't keen on sitting around.  He describes people who retire as taking a year on the beach, getting bored out of their minds, and getting back in the game.  Ideally, you find your passion and work on that.

What advice would you have given for this situation, with the limited information, and in 200 words or less?

Basically he is telling them to live more simply and find some work to cover the smaller living expenses.  It is not a bad answer!  This couple is in a perilous situation and they may end up suffering, but reducing expenses, eliminating debt and trying to increase income is not a bad answer.

ETA: Not working is OK if you can feed yourself.  Not working is not OK if you are running up a CC to live. 

Gunny

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2017, 08:07:51 AM »
Poor Dave.  Always gets hammered on this forum.  I used to listen to Dave almost everyday.  Learned some good stuff from his debt-free advice and used it.  Let the inapplicable, or what seemed unreasonable, slide.  Then I outgrew his get out of debt philosophy.  Never trusted his investment advise after getting raped by one of his ELPs on fees, but that's on me for not educating myself better.   Fast forward a few years.  Found MMM.  Learned some really great stuff, but some of it is a little much for me. I'm not giving up my Pickup for a bike.  Applied what I thought fit my situation.  I'm currently in ER, have a mortgage, use debt as a tool, use CCs as a tool, live below my means, practice more sustainable life style, but not full-on Mustachien.  Point is...one can learn from almost anyone else.  Apply sound advice to your life where applicable and let the rest go. 

MisterTwoForty

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2017, 09:51:27 AM »
Dave's program was the springboard that lead me to this forum and the MMM lifestyle.

I was 'normal' in Dave terms out of college and had the normal amounts of debt people have in their late 20's.  Using his program, I paid it all off and only have my primary 15 year mortgage left.  Being that I had completed his baby steps (except for paying off the house), I went on the search for 'whats next'.

That's when I came across this forum. 

Keep in mind that Ramsey Solutions is a for profit entity and needs to make revenue to pay their 500+ employees.  Dave Ramsey's program has helped millions of people get out of debt and back on track to win financially.  I am a big fan of Dave, even if some of his advice goes against what a MMM forum reader would think.  Keep in mind that he has a system, it works, and many many have benefited from it.

If you pay off your debts, invest the max allowable amounts for retirement, and live on a reasonable budget, you will retire with dignity.  Not everyone has the desire to retire before a traditional retirement age.

RangerOne

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2017, 12:10:22 PM »
Dave's main audience it seems are people who have no business being in debt if they can avoid it. Also it sounds like he offers simplified advice because his audience probably isn't interested in the nuances of finance and investment and just want simple advice that wont carpet bomb their financial future.

Debt is a tool that if you don't have the time or willingness to use properly will only get you into deep trouble.

If he convinces even a handful of his fans to avoid unnecessary debt he has probably done us all a service by keeping a few people from financial ruin.

MMM's target audience is people who make so much money relative to their necessary expenditures that they should be investing and leveraging debt to get ahead and build wealth. They are also people who have time and willingness to attempt to optimize their spending to achieve FI. Most of us when we came here weren't drowning in a debt, we were just under-utilizing our relatively high incomes, and missing out to all the great investment tools available to people with higher incomes.

craiglepaige

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2017, 12:15:40 PM »

Then the cherry on top was the advice he offered a lady whose parents were having financial troubles but whose house had a nice positive equity.  The parents had not worked in two years and had run up about $30k in debt.

After learning the house had about $220k in positive equity he advice the daughter to have her parents sell the house. Buy a house in the $150k range in cash. Pay off their debt and GO BACK TO WORK at 60yo for the mother and 75yo for the father.

What in the mother fucking world???

How could you calmly - actually he was speaking down about the parents for not having worked - and "advice" a 75yo person to go back to work without asking any other questions? Ramsey had no idea what type of work they did before, their health condition, their finances (other than the simple example), their retirement finances etc. 

I was listening to him in total disgust because I know they could had gotten better advice from the members here if they had done a member's case.

I think I'm done with him...

Dave Ramsey is working in the context of a call-in radio show, so he has about 1 - 3 minutes to assess the situation and give an answer.  That is why his system works so well, is it makes it fairly easy to give answers.   A major difference between Dave Ramsey and the Mustaschians, is that Dave believes in working as long as you are productive.  He isn't keen on sitting around.  He describes people who retire as taking a year on the beach, getting bored out of their minds, and getting back in the game.  Ideally, you find your passion and work on that.

What advice would you have given for this situation, with the limited information, and in 200 words or less?

Basically he is telling them to live more simply and find some work to cover the smaller living expenses.  It is not a bad answer!  This couple is in a perilous situation and they may end up suffering, but reducing expenses, eliminating debt and trying to increase income is not a bad answer.

ETA: Not working is OK if you can feed yourself.  Not working is not OK if you are running up a CC to live.


Not completely true.  I remember Dave taking the time to listen, think and provide valuable help to callers in the past.  The "new" Dave is more worried about getting to his sales pitch and the commercials.

Regarding what to tell a 75yo person in this situation?  How about, "I'll be honest here, I need more time to consider your situation and best possible outcome."? Instead the caller goes through and "Financial Drive Thru" and Dave expects them to be merry as they exit the parking lot.

Seems to me you're a fan of Dave, can I ask if you also follow his religious beliefs?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 12:18:00 PM by craiglepaige »
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KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2017, 07:37:32 PM »
It's not a single 75 year old man, it's a 60 year old woman and a 75 year old man.  A 60 year old of decent health and mind should try to work in this situation.

I listen to Dave Ramsey a few times a week via the podcasts and think he generally does a good job inspiring people to live within their means and save for the future.  My faith is not relevant to my choice to listen to the show.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2017, 07:48:54 PM »
I'm pretty religious and more or less in the same camp on that front as Ramsey but I still disagree with a lot of his advice. It's not that I'm a hater, exactly--I think he's great at what he does--but it's just not my thing and I do get pretty irritated with some of the stuff that I consider damaging, like the 12% returns he is always talking about and the constant promotion of ELPs.
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craiglepaige

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2017, 04:50:31 AM »
It's not a single 75 year old man, it's a 60 year old woman and a 75 year old man.  A 60 year old of decent health and mind should try to work in this situation.

I listen to Dave Ramsey a few times a week via the podcasts and think he generally does a good job inspiring people to live within their means and save for the future.  My faith is not relevant to my choice to listen to the show.


Yes, a 60yo person, under these circumstances should consider going back to work. The problem that I had with this particular call was the lack of care by Dave to go a big deeper into the details, and just offer a standardized answer.  Sorry but not all problems are fixed the same way. 

And again, the more I listened to the 3hr. show the more it seemed like he was only there to push the products and not really provide help, as he used to do before.

On your religious beliefs, fair enough. Glad they were not interfering with your perspective.
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KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2017, 08:02:30 AM »
I'm pretty religious and more or less in the same camp on that front as Ramsey but I still disagree with a lot of his advice. It's not that I'm a hater, exactly--I think he's great at what he does--but it's just not my thing and I do get pretty irritated with some of the stuff that I consider damaging, like the 12% returns he is always talking about and the constant promotion of ELPs.

The ELP's are a danger area for listeners, because there is no way that Ramsey can audit them, and financial advice can be expensive.  Then again, not everyone is a do it yourself-er and I don't mind if people want to pay for hand-holding, as long as they are paying attention and not just blindly handing over their life savings.

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2017, 07:45:54 AM »
That would be awesome. Just lie to the phone screener (basically say that you followed all the steps and you only now use cash/debit), and then drop the bomb on ol Davey.

Oh yeah, you'll get him real good!  Trying to tell average people who can't handle credit cards and rack up 10's of thousands in debt (over $15K average in the USA) that they shouldn't use credit cards and rather to save up is SUCH bad advice.

lighten up francis

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WindWater

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2017, 07:20:11 PM »
I have to say that Dave Ramsey totally changed my life and I will be forever grateful.  When I found him, I was heavily into debt and was completely addicted to credit cards.  Dave Ramsey helped me overcome that addiction and learn how to live within my means.  I do not think I would have any chance of retiring EVER and would have ended up homeless and broke without the help I got from his books, forums, etc. 

However, now that I am out of debt and have overcome my addiction and am basically at his step 7, I pretty much feel like I have evolved past what he teaches.  Also, his politics and religion really got to be much.  So yeah, I don't go into his forums anymore or watch his show.

MrDelane

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2017, 07:50:53 PM »
I'm not religious (Don't call myself atheist, I just have my own beliefs)-

For the record -'atheist' just means 'not religious'. That's all. You're free to not call yourself one, but you are one by your own words.

Don't mean to derail the topic, but since Ramsey uses religion as part of his hook, I thought I'd mention this misconception people often have.

An atheist could be a nice, generous liberal, or angry, greedy libertarian. They might hate all religions, or not care about the subject at all. They could be highly logical/rational, or they could be a nutty conspiracy theorist. All they have to do is not have any religion/dogma or God they believe in. They could say they just don't know if a God or Gods exist (agnostic = no knowledge), or say the overwhelming evidence shows that any God is as fictional as Santa Claus or Batman.

Every time I've met someone who is super impressed by Ramsey, they're also very religious, very dumb with money, and very low-information, emotional deciders -meaning they seem to believe many important things in their lives based on whatever they feel they want to be true. People like Ramsey know this and abuse it as 'voices of authority' -same as most churches and cults that make sure to start right at birth.

I know this is way off topic, so apologies in advance, but I feel the need to clarify this.

'Atheist' does not mean 'not religious,' it mean a non-theist.
Many people are clearly religious while also being atheists.
Many Buddhists, Jains, Raelians, and Unitarian Universalists for example.

An atheist does not hold a belief that a god exists, that is all.
Any belief of dogma or religion aside from that is a whole other issue.


(yeah, I know, I'm pedantic... sorry)

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2017, 09:08:50 AM »
My biggest problem with him is how he totes the religion.  I wish I had saved it, but I read an article from him once where he basically talked about how god willed a sports car into his life.  The way he described it, it was like god chooses who gets fancy things, and when they do/don't get them. 

Maybe my disgust at this kind of assertion is simply because I'm not a religious person, but this does disgust me.  To see millions dying of malaria, malnutrition, war, etc, and then to assert that you have a fancy car because some supernatural power WANTS you to. No thank you. 

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craiglepaige

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2017, 01:57:24 PM »
I'm not religious (Don't call myself atheist, I just have my own beliefs)-

For the record -'atheist' just means 'not religious'. That's all. You're free to not call yourself one, but you are one by your own words.

Don't mean to derail the topic, but since Ramsey uses religion as part of his hook, I thought I'd mention this misconception people often have.

An atheist could be a nice, generous liberal, or angry, greedy libertarian. They might hate all religions, or not care about the subject at all. They could be highly logical/rational, or they could be a nutty conspiracy theorist. All they have to do is not have any religion/dogma or God they believe in. They could say they just don't know if a God or Gods exist (agnostic = no knowledge), or say the overwhelming evidence shows that any God is as fictional as Santa Claus or Batman.

Every time I've met someone who is super impressed by Ramsey, they're also very religious, very dumb with money, and very low-information, emotional deciders -meaning they seem to believe many important things in their lives based on whatever they feel they want to be true. People like Ramsey know this and abuse it as 'voices of authority' -same as most churches and cults that make sure to start right at birth.

I know this is way off topic, so apologies in advance, but I feel the need to clarify this.

'Atheist' does not mean 'not religious,' it mean a non-theist.
Many people are clearly religious while also being atheists.
Many Buddhists, Jains, Raelians, and Unitarian Universalists for example.

An atheist does not hold a belief that a god exists, that is all.
Any belief of dogma or religion aside from that is a whole other issue.


(yeah, I know, I'm pedantic... sorry)


Ha, I guess you could call my religion "StarWarnism" since I believe there is positive energy and negative energy in this universe and nothing else.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.

- Eres Un Esclavo Financiero
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Pushkina2

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2017, 02:27:11 PM »
I am practically addicted to listening to Dave Ramsey podcasts while gardening/doing other chores. And I'm a creditcard carrying, semi-militant atheist to boot. To me, Dave is like that older relative who occasionally drops gold nuggets along with other opinions/world views that you roll your eyes at (sometimes the eyes roll really hard).

I firmly believe there's a certain audience out there who need his simplified financial advice and won't ever grow beyond it. That's fine. There're other people out there (like me) who listen to him more for entertainment value, pocket a few ideas and know which ones to avoid in our own financial strategies.

Also, I like the idea posted earlier that Dave is like the undergraduate years while MMM is akin to grad school (in a much-more autdodidactical fashion).

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2017, 06:52:27 PM »
I'm not religious (Don't call myself atheist, I just have my own beliefs)-

For the record -'atheist' just means 'not religious'. That's all. You're free to not call yourself one, but you are one by your own words.
Don't mean to derail the topic, but since Ramsey uses religion as part of his hook, I thought I'd mention this misconception people often have.


Not true. An atheist is by definition "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods". Not all religions are theistic, thus one could have all sorts of religious or spiritual beliefs and still be an atheist under the actual definition.

Lumberjack

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2017, 07:57:49 PM »

...

I firmly believe there's a certain audience out there who need his simplified financial advice and won't ever grow beyond it. That's fine.

...

This right here. If you understand 10% of the posts on this forum, you probably don't need Dave's help. But there are many people who either can't, or aren't interested in spending the time to develop that understanding. For those people, adherence is most important, so a simple framework to follow is a win.

If everyone followed his steps, all mortgages would be 15 yr or less and nobody would have a 7 year loan for a new car. It'd hard to argue that most people wouldn't be better off if they stuck to that.

retired?

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2017, 09:16:07 PM »
I'm not religious (Don't call myself atheist, I just have my own beliefs)-

For the record -'atheist' just means 'not religious'. That's all. You're free to not call yourself one, but you are one by your own words.

Don't mean to derail the topic, but since Ramsey uses religion as part of his hook, I thought I'd mention this misconception people often have.

An atheist could be a nice, generous liberal, or angry, greedy libertarian. They might hate all religions, or not care about the subject at all. They could be highly logical/rational, or they could be a nutty conspiracy theorist. All they have to do is not have any religion/dogma or God they believe in. They could say they just don't know if a God or Gods exist (agnostic = no knowledge), or say the overwhelming evidence shows that any God is as fictional as Santa Claus or Batman.

Every time I've met someone who is super impressed by Ramsey, they're also very religious, very dumb with money, and very low-information, emotional deciders -meaning they seem to believe many important things in their lives based on whatever they feel they want to be true. People like Ramsey know this and abuse it as 'voices of authority' -same as most churches and cults that make sure to start right at birth.

I've fortunately never heard of DR. Funny thing is that before I read through all the posts and didn't know he had a religious bent, I was thinking he sounds like Suze Ormond. She preaches to the masses and very ill-informed. So the funny connection is that we used to watch her show for laughs the same way I was good ol Earnest Angeley back in the 70s/80s on Sunday morning for good laughs.

The line I will remember to my grave is (as he's healing someone):  Nicotine Devil come out of your ears!!  Then the guy faints.

Anyhow. Have a sister. Fairly religious. Horrible with money and finances. And goes by how 'something feels'. She's not flat out stupid but doesn't want to exercise her brain enough to learn a little finance. To me, it hurts to make poor financial decisions so I find value in learning. To her, the learning and dcision making is painful, so she overlays etc.

nvtribefan1

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2017, 09:25:39 PM »

MMM's target audience is people who make so much money relative to their necessary expenditures that they should be investing and leveraging debt to get ahead and build wealth.

I wasn't aware of that.

OurTown

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
He's really more of a motivational speaker than an expert.  The advice of pay off your debt and LBYM is common sense and free. 

KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2017, 09:45:10 AM »
Ramsey's radio show and podcast are free.  Of course there is marketing, but whether anyone spends a penny on extra services is their choice.

I'm listening to podcast #8750 from yesterday and he starts the hour with a long rant about the federal government possibly reneging on their promise to forgive student loans for people who agreed to take public service jobs.  It's a good rant, IMO.  The government should not make deals and then back out of their commitments.

surfhb

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2017, 09:53:55 AM »
The bottom line is that he has saved millions of people from financial ruin over the course of his career.   

Sure, there is some questionable advice but he has done a lot of good ( just like this site) and deserves to be rewarded for the hard work.   

Note:   Most people should be paying a financial adviser to manage their portfolio.   No amount of schooling will make these people understand the benefits of index investing


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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2017, 10:24:30 AM »
Ramsey's radio show and podcast are free.  Of course there is marketing, but whether anyone spends a penny on extra services is their choice.



True, but he's pitching his sleazy marketing campaign at a self-selected group of people who are bad with money and spending, while doing so in the name of god.  That reeks, as far as I'm concerned.

KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2017, 11:58:40 AM »
Well, no.  It's not sleazy.  He's selling books like Financial Peace University and his own budgeting software and his online community.  He gets advertising and pre-screens these ELPS, I forget what that stands for, but they are the investment folks, and he has screened and recommends realtors.   Just because the ELPs and the Realtors make money from their customers, does not mean they are sleazy.  Are they optimal?  Maybe not.  Probably some ELPs are great and some ELPs suck.  A load fund is NOT going to cause you financial ruin.  You might be over paying, but it depends on the service you are getting.  Right? 

Sleazy is payday lenders and rent to own and many lower tier car dealers, predatory lenders, etc. etc. etc. 

I once used a financial advisor that I fired.  They made money from me and I was OK with it in the beginning.  Then I decided to work on my own.  All of those choices are fine.  I do not hate the financial advisor, he was just not the right person for me long term.  It was my decision to hire and fire.

If Dave Ramsey were sleazy, there would be (eta: MANY) people out there saying he's terrible, he would not be so immensely successful.  Instead there are millions of people that he has helped and inspired.  Is it perfect?  No.  Does Dave deserve to make money for helping millions of people?  Yes.  Yes, absolutely.  If Dave Ramsey is not the right person for YOU that is your choice!  That is fine! 

Dave's approach is connected to churches.  His support groups often run in churches, he started out helping people through churches, etc. etc.  That does not make him bad.  He uses phrases like God's and Grandma's ways of handling money.  That is not bad.  He also often says that "it's all God's money and therefore I must be responsible with it."  That is not bad either.  He often talks about fortunate successful people having a responsibility to give to the less fortunate.  That is not bad.

I'm thankful for Dave Ramsey and I'm thankful for MMM and I like them both.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:01:08 PM by KBecks »

talltexan

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2017, 12:28:42 PM »
I haven't seen anyone on this thread address Dave's book THE LEGACY JOURNEY or his nudges towards being generous once you've "made it".

I know many non-religious people who still feel a powerful impulse to be effective in this dimension. Are you guys on here?

Gin1984

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2017, 12:53:41 PM »

...

I firmly believe there's a certain audience out there who need his simplified financial advice and won't ever grow beyond it. That's fine.

...

This right here. If you understand 10% of the posts on this forum, you probably don't need Dave's help. But there are many people who either can't, or aren't interested in spending the time to develop that understanding. For those people, adherence is most important, so a simple framework to follow is a win.

If everyone followed his steps, all mortgages would be 15 yr or less and nobody would have a 7 year loan for a new car. It'd hard to argue that most people wouldn't be better off if they stuck to that.
Actually I know quite a few people who would be worse off with a fifteen year mortgage, myself included. They'd have no money to save for retirement. I personally bought a duplex when my husband was in grad school and the mortgage/property taxes/insurance/repairs were the same as rent as long as we took a 30 mortgage.  Which meant that as long as we had a tenant, we were put the entire amount in retirement.  I'd have thousands less if I listened to Ramsey.

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Lumberjack

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2017, 09:05:36 PM »

...

I firmly believe there's a certain audience out there who need his simplified financial advice and won't ever grow beyond it. That's fine.

...

This right here. If you understand 10% of the posts on this forum, you probably don't need Dave's help. But there are many people who either can't, or aren't interested in spending the time to develop that understanding. For those people, adherence is most important, so a simple framework to follow is a win.

If everyone followed his steps, all mortgages would be 15 yr or less and nobody would have a 7 year loan for a new car. It'd hard to argue that most people wouldn't be better off if they stuck to that.
Actually I know quite a few people who would be worse off with a fifteen year mortgage, myself included. They'd have no money to save for retirement. I personally bought a duplex when my husband was in grad school and the mortgage/property taxes/insurance/repairs were the same as rent as long as we took a 30 mortgage.  Which meant that as long as we had a tenant, we were put the entire amount in retirement.  I'd have thousands less if I listened to Ramsey.

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You became a landlord and then lived off a single income, saving the other.

47% of polled Americans couldn't handle an unexpected bill of $400 (http://www.npr.org/2016/04/24/475432149/could-you-come-up-with-400-if-disaster-struck).

You don't fit in to the 'most' bucket, and neither do the people you're talking about.

Rife

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2017, 07:08:24 AM »
I am a credit card using atheist, but do listen to Ramsey on podcast at work. On some things I am more Ramseian than Mustachian and others obviously not. Both agree on debt being an emergency. I do think Ramsey does better talking about risk. Mostly I just find it motivating to listen to the callers stories.

Yes, his CC advise is non-sense branding as the No-CC Guy. Someone who follows a strict budget has already solved the problem. His motivating people to pay off the house is a bit sneaky but for many good advise. Really, few are going to strictly follow the plan forever, I will assume, and it is harder to spend a house than mutual funds. That said, I am not paying off my house.

He has great points about debt though. Interest rate doesn't matter much if you pay it off in less than a year. I don't see why a financial plan to build up hundreds of thousands of dollars needs to include keeping a student loan around. It should be easy to just get rid of.

I agree the downside is that the show pushes everyone to multiple revenue generating items such as books, ELPs, or seminars but I do think overall his followers come out in great shape.

Personally, I am also turned off by his overly evangelical approach. He was a sinner too?! He must know me so well! But again, I do find the show entertaining.

Try listening to the retired inspired podcast. I gave two episodes a listen and he literally said nothing other than "you can do this!" He never even thought about what he would talk about.

Dicey

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2017, 07:37:47 AM »
I haven't seen anyone on this thread address Dave's book THE LEGACY JOURNEY or his nudges towards being generous once you've "made it".

I know many non-religious people who still feel a powerful impulse to be effective in this dimension. Are you guys on here?
Sure.  We're FI. I'm RE and DH still works. We just did our taxes. We gave 10% of our income to charity last year. None of it went to organized religion. Not all of our giving was tax-deductible either, so technically we gave more than 10%. We are generous with our time as well.

I'm still not a huge DR fan, but then I have no love for Suze or Jim either.  Not sure what that proves, if anything.
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talltexan

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2017, 07:45:11 AM »
Count me among the people who were disappointed by the "Retired Inspired" podcast.

That second episode has a guy writing in about Roth IRA versus Traditional IRA. The answer was so low-quality, far worse than the best discussions I've found here.


marion10

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2017, 12:21:32 PM »
There are a lot of people who think they will pay off their credit cards but " things " come up.
That's why I don't recommend travel hacking to people who are not already in good financial shape.
Having no credit cards at all OTOH is unrealistic- I've seen people who had to put down huge cash deposits to rent a car. Credit cards give you a lot of purchase protections.

talltexan

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2017, 12:48:51 PM »
I have started to wonder if two of Dave's more controversial recommendations:

1. strive to be debt-free and mortgage-free, and
2. put investments 100% in stocks

Don't go together. reducing your cash flow for debt service is basically an implied bond position. I've seen many people on this site argue for the 100% stock allocation, which they justify by their reduced risk from being mortgage-free.

PiobStache

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2017, 11:17:53 AM »
My main problem with Ramsey is his pathological aversion to any sort of debt.  I understand in his earlier life he leveraged himself to the hilt and either went BK or had severe financial issues, so I get where he's coming from, but I think from reading here most people truly understand intelligently managed debt actually tends to yield an improved financial position over time.  Ramsey will always tell people they need to eliminate all debt even when it clearly is bad advice.

KBecks

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2017, 05:22:09 AM »
I think Ramsey needs to be black and white because a lot of people need rules for them in order to stick to a goal. 

Ramsey's approach is very different from Robert Kiyosaki (Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and other books).  I read Kiyosaki first, then got into Ramsey.  It is interesting to see both sides. 


Dicey

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2017, 07:14:46 AM »
My main problem with Ramsey is his pathological aversion to any sort of debt.  I understand in his earlier life he leveraged himself to the hilt and either went BK or had severe financial issues, so I get where he's coming from, but I think from reading here most people truly understand intelligently managed debt actually tends to yield an improved financial position over time.  Ramsey will always tell people they need to eliminate all debt even when it clearly is bad advice.
Shout that from the rooftops, PiobStache!

There are still a few folks here who don't quite understand the magnificent, wealth-building power of carefully managed debt yet, but we're working on it!
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talltexan

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2017, 07:25:57 AM »
I would be happy to debate any specific idea out of the Robert Kiyosaki books. Some of them (pay yourself first, buy assets, and stay away from liabilities, use your work to learn about how to invest in an industry) have merit.

Some of them (you should be able to earn a 16% risk-free return; incorporate with your cat as your business partner) are ludicrous. Kiyosaki puts so little discipline into keeping the ludicrous ideas out of his books that I have significant reservations with recommending them. The good ideas he presents are surely available in other places.

Chris22

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2017, 10:12:16 AM »
I have started to wonder if two of Dave's more controversial recommendations:

1. strive to be debt-free and mortgage-free, and
2. put investments 100% in stocks

Don't go together. reducing your cash flow for debt service is basically an implied bond position. I've seen many people on this site argue for the 100% stock allocation, which they justify by their reduced risk from being mortgage-free.

Interesting thought.  It's logical that if you are debt free that you can take on more risk in your portfolio.  If you are going to use leverage (which having debt is), than you must outpace the interest rate on your debt.  So if you have debt that is 25% of your assets, and you have 25% in cash or bonds that return less than the interest rate on your debt after taxes, it makes no sense.  I would actually argue that even if your investment returns are over your rate on debt, you may not have enough of a return when you factor in risk.  When you are debt free, your break even rate is zero, so any investment with a positive return can be used.

But wouldn't you also have to consider the compounding of time in terms of the investment when you are paying that debt down?

Basically, there are different scenarios.  There's one scenario where "I have $10k, should I invest it and finance XXX, or should I buy XXX outright and skip the debt and investment?" and there's another were "I have XXX debt outstanding, should I pay it down ASAP at the expense of investing, or should I pay at a slower rate and invest at the same time?" 

Where I have a problem with Ramsey is that I come at this from the viewpoint of a younger person who started life with some debt (low interest student loans), and the idea that I would pay those off like crazy at the expense of things like investing (especially in an employer-matched 401k) seems idiotic to me.
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craiglepaige

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2017, 01:17:04 PM »
So I decided to give Dave's show another try, just cause and within two minutes I was listening to a "Christian Health Care Insurance" commercial. Ahhh okay. What does Christianity have to do with health care??

Answer: Nothing. But it gives other Christians a good feeling in their bellies, which in turn makes them trust this company over others.

I just don't see this would had been a thing on his show 2-3 years ago. Is it just me or what? Is it all about the commercials and steering the callers/listeners to spend money on his marketing stuff?


Side note:  For any Spanish speaking person in the forum, please see https://youtu.be/RhULQbDHNQ0

It's the Mexican version of Dave Ramsey. The guy went through the Financial Peace University program and now has his own.  Some of his speeches are word for word the same as Ramsey.

I found this about a week ago and now I don't even know how to feel about the whole ordeal. Yes you are helping but it just feels fake.
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Better Late

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2017, 08:39:33 PM »
One thing Dave Ramsey does is remove the shame/embarrassment/anxiety over talking about money. I love how he always asks, how much do you make, how much do you owe, how much do you owe on your cars in such a straightforward manner.  I remember the first time I heard his show I couldn't believe people were talking about money so openly.  It really helped me get honest with myself about what we were doing with our finances.

Bateaux

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2017, 07:11:25 AM »
One thing Dave Ramsey does is remove the shame/embarrassment/anxiety over talking about money. I love how he always asks, how much do you make, how much do you owe, how much do you owe on your cars in such a straightforward manner.  I remember the first time I heard his show I couldn't believe people were talking about money so openly.  It really helped me get honest with myself about what we were doing with our finances.


This is where he is best no doubt.  He wakes people up and makes them focus.  That helps them get on track to hopefully pull themselves out of the terrible feedback loop of spending more than they earn.  Calling it baby steps is very fitting.   Mustacianism is graduate level for these folks.  Many as obvious as the answer is have to be shown how to recover. Most of us who've practiced for years bore quickly with Dave.
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boyerbt

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2017, 11:20:49 AM »
So I was listening to DR today and he said something that has always irritated me but I finally ran the numbers to see how wrong he is about it. If someone would follow DR's baby steps plan you would not be contributing to retirement while repaying your debt. His response to someone's question about this is that it is only THREE years of investing that you are foregoing to pay off the debt and that this amount won't cost the caller that much in the long run. The way he said it so emphatically made me think it has to be wrong and I wanted to check it to see how bad of advice this is, as long as the person has some money to put into retirement.

Thus I sat at my desk and crunched some numbers to see what the total investment amount comes to if someone was to begin investing today by opening and fully funding an IRA and would then add another $5,500 per year and then running the numbers alone for the subsequent three years. From there the basic math comes out to a total amount of just under $105,000 in the same 24 years if a person waits three years to invest. This was based on an 8% return every year for simplicity which of course is not a winner in DR's book. So at a 12% return the three years of waiting would cost the person $251,000.

Not a lot of money? Depends on who you ask I guess.
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Chris22

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2017, 11:37:36 AM »
So I was listening to DR today and he said something that has always irritated me but I finally ran the numbers to see how wrong he is about it. If someone would follow DR's baby steps plan you would not be contributing to retirement while repaying your debt. His response to someone's question about this is that it is only THREE years of investing that you are foregoing to pay off the debt and that this amount won't cost the caller that much in the long run. The way he said it so emphatically made me think it has to be wrong and I wanted to check it to see how bad of advice this is, as long as the person has some money to put into retirement.

Thus I sat at my desk and crunched some numbers to see what the total investment amount comes to if someone was to begin investing today by opening and fully funding an IRA and would then add another $5,500 per year and then running the numbers alone for the subsequent three years. From there the basic math comes out to a total amount of just under $105,000 in the same 24 years if a person waits three years to invest. This was based on an 8% return every year for simplicity which of course is not a winner in DR's book. So at a 12% return the three years of waiting would cost the person $251,000.

Not a lot of money? Depends on who you ask I guess.

What happens if you re-run the numbers and instead of an IRA assume an employer-matched 401k with a nominal (say 3%) matching employer contribution? 

That's ALWAYS been my beef with Ramsey.  Delay that investing to pay off ALL debt, no matter the interest rate?  Nonsensical!
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lhamo

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Re: Distancing myself from Ramseyism.
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2017, 11:49:47 AM »
It also leaves out entirely the tax benefits of 401k and regular IRA investments, which can potentially put a significant amount of cash back into play for debt repayment.

The snowball all-in debt repayment approach works very well on smaller, high-interest debt like credit cards and some car loans.   In those cases, I think it may make sense for people who are struggling to make ends meet to focus on getting the debt out of the way before investing.  Even with a company match and a decent tax benefit, it is hard to beat paying off a 15-20% interest rate on consumer debt.   But I think he is really silly to recommend that people forego retirement investing when they have gobs of student loan debt at 4-8*, or are saving for a house.   
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