Author Topic: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?  (Read 1730 times)

WranglerBowman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: DMV
Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« on: September 20, 2018, 08:34:42 AM »
So we currently own a 2013 Passat TDI that is part of Dieselgate and we need to figure out what to do with it by the end of December.  We like the car but the buy back is so good I think we would be foolish to turn it down.  It's my SO's car and she's leaning towards an SUV with a third row, which really doesn't make sense to me because we put about 20k+ miles (face punch gently) on a vehicle every year, won't need the third row for at least 3 more years, and an SUV just about doubles the costs of parts and maintenance over a car, while getting much less fuel mileage.  I'm trying to steer her towards a used wagon, preferably diesel, but not sure where to start.  I also do nearly all vehicle maintenance so not too concerned about labor hour costs.

I did a little research on the BMW 328d and I know parts would be expensive, but those also seem to have quite a host of issues with the engines and drivetrain.

Currently leaning towards a Jetta TDI Sport Wagon right now but could be swayed, so push me around.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:43:14 AM by WranglerBowman »

big_owl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2018, 10:10:24 AM »
IDK, my wife has a Jetta TDI that was affected - it has just under 100k miles on it and is in like-new condition (and long since paid off). 

We could have sold it back and got something like $13k IIRC.  We would have had to spend another $15k on top of that to get a new car of comparable class.  I guess I could have tried to find a used car instead...but we already have a used car in excellent working condition (the Jetta) so I'm dubious on that argument.  My wife has a personal driver for work so we don't use it to commute and as such it will easily last another ten years.

We just chose the option of keeping the car, having them repair it for free, and a cash.  It was about $5500 cash and we didn't have to spend additional monies or effort for a new car.  So far the data says we lost 1mpg in fuel economy as a result of the modification.

I guess if one is looking for an excuse to get a new car anyway then ok, but just getting another used car seems odd, are you really coming out ahead?  I'd have been hard pressed to find a used car as good as the Jetta for $13k.  Instead we got to keep the car and invested the free $5500.  Given the gains in the market since we invested the money it was the much better choice for us.

Adam Zapple

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2018, 05:57:22 AM »
I can't tell if you are trolling or not

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Location: Running barefoot thru Idaho mountains
    • Black Sheep With Feet
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2018, 07:06:46 AM »
I don't know if he I trolling or not either..... But I don't think you could pay me enough to take a car back that tricks the gov smog systems lol

trollwithamustache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 615
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2018, 08:09:54 AM »
People need to get over this VW thing and just use Biodiesel in them. Emissions problem solved, you are now carbon neutral!

skp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Location: oh
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2018, 11:04:25 AM »
I can only tell you what we did.  We bought the Jetta TDI wagon the first year it came out.  We loved that car. Good gas mileage, good cargo room, and fun to drive.   It averaged 42 miles per gallon for us- we live semi rural.  But, we had to make a choice- do the fix or take the rebate. It was 8 years old and starting to give us some trouble.  And we'd get $14,000 for an 8 year old used car- albeit one we loved. So after much agonizing we took the money  and put it towards a used Honda Civic- the first used car I ever bought.  There was really no other comparable replacement.  I did consider an Outback- but they are fairly expensive, I don't really need the 4 wheel drive, and I didn't like the gas mileage.  The Civic was  3 years old, and had heated seats and the engine that gets better gas mileage. I'm averaging  39 miles per gallon on regular gas (no diesel premium), and the out the door price was $18,000.  I don't love the civic.  But it was a practical choice.  Ifigure based on my usual car purchase schedule, I should get 8 years out of it  for $4000.
We just couldn't justify fixing the Jetta considering the buy back price offered.

WranglerBowman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: DMV
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2018, 11:30:46 AM »
Def not trolling, I'm a little surprised that even came up with my post...  VW is offering us $18.5k to buy back or $5.5k check and they make the repair.  The KBB estimated value of the car is about $7.5k.  My wife wants an SUV but it seems so illogical at this point in our life.  She likes her car, but sees this as a nice way to get a good down payment on an SUV.  I'd rather take the $18.5 and buy a used diesel sedan or wagon for half that price and invest the difference, but this is not just my decision and I'm really torn on what to do... 

@big_owl - Thanks for sharing your MPG difference from the fix, can you update me some more as you get numbers please.  That actually make me lean a little more towards keeping the car.  A big concern originally was the fix would drop our fuel economy by 15-20% or so, and go through much more Ad Blue, increasing costs.  We had gotten really used to 42 mpg city/hwy and I was able to get 54 mpg on long trips, which is incredible.

swinginbeef

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 62
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2018, 07:12:42 AM »
I drove a non-wagon 2001 Jetta TDI for just under 300k miles before the transmission started slipping and it needed yet another timing belt and I decided it just wasn't worth keeping. It was mostly a commuter, because we have 5 kids and use our Honda Odyssey for longer trips. We replaced it with a used 2011 Prius and I'm definitely happy with the switch. It will hold a considerable amount of cargo with the rear seats down and is plenty big for 4 adults or 2 and 3 kids. The fuel mileage is 25% better (averaged ~40mpg in the Jetta and ~50mpg in the Prius) and gasoline is cheaper than diesel on top of that. For cost, mileage and reliability (so far, we've only had it for about 30k and it'a at 127k)), this has been the best car we've owned.

Jon Bon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 596
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2018, 07:22:55 AM »
I think the answer here is to tell your SO you will buy them a minivan. 3 row suv/cuvs are some of the most expensive cars out there.

A van is better than an CUV in every way.
Cheaper
Better on gas
Hauls more stuff

IF your SO says yeah that's fine, a van sounds like a good solution. I would probably be on board with whatever their purchase is.

OR

IF your SO freaks out and says "I could never drive that!" then you know they are just a victim of marketing and want a big SUV because that is what everyone else drives.

Full disclosure I have had both vehicles. The van is without a doubt better. I think with 4 years in the SUV I only did something the van could not do 1 time.  With the van I use it for its intended purpose daily haul a large amount of stuff and people around. In real world usage you will likely use the van to do the things the SUV cannot do much more often then the reverse.

Also old German cars? What the hell, do you know what site you are on?! :)

pantherchams

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2018, 11:45:17 AM »
Diesel can  be challenging to come by in our area, and that would drive my wife insane, so for that reason I'd go for gas.  Some nice perks with diesel, though.

If you are doing your own labor, I don't understand why you think an SUV would have double the parts/maintenance costs over a car.  In my experience, that is not the case, or even close to the case.  Costs are very similar.

WranglerBowman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: DMV
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 10:44:49 AM »
@swinginbeef - Another timing belt on the TDI?...you mean the 2nd one which is supposed to be replaced every 150k miles?  Tell me about the Prius that you all bought, what model, price, stuff like that.

@Jon Bon - My wife refused to drive a minivan, and I have tried to convince her the last 3 years how great and practical they are.  She's def a victim of marketing and think minivans are so embarrassing.  This thinking drives me nuts and I can't seem to change her no matter how much logic I throw at her.  Don't even get me started on old German cars, I wanted a 300TD wagon for so long but they are rare and parts are relatively expensive...that is if they ever break.

@pantherchams - Diesel fuel is everywhere in the area we live.  I work on a lot of vehicles of friends and family, fair amount of Hondas, and just about any Honda part from NAPA or Advance Auto is 1/3 to 1/2 less than the price of an SUV/Truck.  Might not always be the case but pretty consistently from what I've seen and any SUV/truck gets a 1/3 to 1/2 less than the fuel mileage of a car.

swampwiz

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 451
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 11:42:24 AM »
As a Fahrvergnügen man, I was appalled at this scandal (I have the 1.8T gasoline engine).  I think that the driverless car is coming in the not too distant future, so I would loathe buying a new car now.  I've had a wonderful experience with a certified pre-owned VW, so I think would go in that direction.

swinginbeef

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 62
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 12:42:47 PM »
@swinginbeef - Another timing belt on the TDI?...you mean the 2nd one which is supposed to be replaced every 150k miles?  Tell me about the Prius that you all bought, what model, price, stuff like that.

My 2001 Jetta factory timing belt was a suggested 80k belt. It was replaced with a 100k belt and then replaced with another 100k belt and was about ready for it's 4th timing belt.
We found a 2011 Prius with 94k miles on it for $7000. (it's been a couple years ago now, so they may be cheaper but you may not be able to find one with similar miles. I think they are all 4 door hatchbacks but this is a base model with cloth seats, nothing fancy but also fewer bells and whistles to malfunction in the future. The best mileage we've ever gotten for a full tank was 56.4mpg on a trip but my true commuter (+24 miles each way with a mix of Interstate and city streets) average is a little over 50 (50.5-51ish) in the summer and just under 50 (49-50) in the winter. My best ever in the Jetta was a hair over 50mpg on an all highway leg of a trip. The tank is a little smaller so instead of the 480-500 miles per tank I used to get, I have to refill every 400-420 miles.

FWIW- I was a big fan of my little VW diesel and anti Prius but once you get over the fact that it's a Prius, it really is a better choice. Similar to once you get past the fact that it's minivan, it really is a better choice than an SUV.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 12:47:22 PM by swinginbeef »

big_owl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2018, 03:54:05 AM »
Def not trolling, I'm a little surprised that even came up with my post...  VW is offering us $18.5k to buy back or $5.5k check and they make the repair.  The KBB estimated value of the car is about $7.5k.  My wife wants an SUV but it seems so illogical at this point in our life.  She likes her car, but sees this as a nice way to get a good down payment on an SUV.  I'd rather take the $18.5 and buy a used diesel sedan or wagon for half that price and invest the difference, but this is not just my decision and I'm really torn on what to do... 

@big_owl - Thanks for sharing your MPG difference from the fix, can you update me some more as you get numbers please.  That actually make me lean a little more towards keeping the car.  A big concern originally was the fix would drop our fuel economy by 15-20% or so, and go through much more Ad Blue, increasing costs.  We had gotten really used to 42 mpg city/hwy and I was able to get 54 mpg on long trips, which is incredible.

We had the fix done months ago so the 1mpg loss of fuel economy is pretty well established in our case.  She uses fuelly every time she fills up so we know th emileage on every single tank of diesel we've ever put in the thing. 

Jon Bon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 596
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2018, 12:33:34 PM »
Fair enough on the marketing aspect of all this. Something you could try: Rent a minivan on a road trip with the kids (if you dont have any kids go rent some) and you will realize it is the peak of human achievement!  If that does not convince her give it up and move on.

Yes at some point I think ze Germans started inventing solutions that did not have actual problems. I guess that depends on the manufacturer, but my opinion would be somewhere in the mid 2000's cars became too complex for their own good.

Just don't buy an Audi All-Road like that other guy was contemplating!

BlueMR2

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2018, 11:59:08 AM »
I'm pretty solidly anti-diesel at this point due to my personal experiences.

We've had a diesel car in the family before and it would end up sitting almost all Winter because they just don't like to start cold.  Plugging in block heater and glow plug pre-heat and then it still wouldn't usually start.

I've driven diesel trucks for companies.  I've run out of fuel due to lack of fuel stations that have diesel.  You've really got to know where you are going to stop ahead of time and hope they aren't closed or out of fuel when you get there.  Long trips on even interstates can be an issue in parts of the country.  Nevermind off the beaten path.  Then, purging a diesel system so it will run again after getting air in it from running out is a royal pain.  Especially on the side of the highway.

The Beacon

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 148
    • Financial Freedom Tips
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2018, 02:09:34 PM »
No diesel for me because I do not drive long distance a lot.  That is the only advantage that I can think of over my 13 year old well maintained Honda CR-V.  My parts are cheap and DIY repairs are abundant.

If it were me,  I'd take the money and buy a used regular gas car or a hybrid if i drive a lot.

nath

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2018, 12:23:36 AM »
Take the money for handing the car back and run,  plus stay away from all VW products they are not exactly known for reliability.
Diesels in general are now considered a serious health risk and are starting to be banned from major European cities which could eventually happen in most countries. Bye bye resale value.
Buy something as new as possible from a Japanese brand and preferably with a warranty and petrol motor.
I would however consider a diesel in a Large SUV (if you need one?) as long as know there may be resale issues in the future.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5921
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2018, 12:52:30 AM »
An SUV cannot be an option here. A reminder this is the MMM forum so the real question is why you need an additional car at all.

There was a time when the first responses here would be "can you figure out a way to rearrange your residence/distance from work/school/shops/leisure and do without?"

That being said, if VW is offering you $11k more than the value of the car, it's a no brainer - take the money.


WranglerBowman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: DMV
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2019, 08:01:30 AM »
I just wanted to close this loop since so many of the forums I'm on never provide a conclusion to a problem or story.  I appreciate all the helpful responses everyone provided and while I'm still a fan of the diesel cars it's become pretty hard to find newer TDI's out there due to the buybacks.  We ended up buying a 2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid.  I was skeptical of getting a hybrid because I've never worked on one before and why would I want additional large $ components, outside of an engine and trans, that need maintenance and repair when gas is $2/gallon...  I guess I gave in a little out of attrition (5 weeks of looking at vehicles) and the fact that this car appeared to be a clean car, good history, at a decent price, and it had the options my wife wanted so she was happy.  Camry hybrids appear to have pretty good reviews with many reporting very high miles with minimal maintenance and costs when maintained correctly.  Working on a hybrid will have a learning curve for me and I wanted to ask what other hybrid drivers can tell me about maintenance and costs to watch out for, especially with regenerative braking and battery cells going bad?

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 08:30:18 AM »
I have a friend who flips cars for a hobby. He said he flipped a Prius with close to 300K miles on it that was throwing battery troublecodes. He ended up buying two used battery cells (modules) on eBay for $50 (?) each and then installed them into the existing battery. He cleaned all the connections and then tightened every thing up and the battery troublecodes went away. The car regained it's acceleration and the fuel economy returned to normal. Study up on the repair if you ever do it. 62 volts DC is where DC begins to shock you so you'd need to be careful and wear some safety gear. You can't turn a battery off at that level. I've worked on DC equipment (forklifts and such). Not a big deal.

I don't think you'll have any troubles through. Its a Toyota. I have several friends with Toyota hybrids (Prius and 1 Camry). None have had any hybrid drive problems whatsoever aside from the car flipping friend who got his car cheap b/c it needed repairs. One of the Toyota owners had a stereo fail early on during the warranty period. 

Back to the diesels: I don't get upset about VW diesel and their polluting tendencies. Either get the updates or not, I don't care. I can ride y'all around town and show you all the domestic pickup trucks with the fuel turned up belching smoke, the commercial delivery trucks, the construction equipment belching soot, the tractors out on the farms belching smoke, and the train that toddles through town that belches a little smoke. OH and the big highway trucks rolling past on the interstate that smoke a little too under certain conditions.

I think those big engines are many, many magnitudes worse than anything a little 2.0 liter VW engine makes. What VW did was wrong and they deserved every penalty they were dished. Those cars can be updated to make them pollute less or just wear them out and in another few years, many of them will be recycled. Life goes on.

That diesel Sportwagen was very high on our list but we chose something larger as we needed more of a do everything vehicle which meant a bit more room, AWD, a little more highway comfort. What we chose should last us another decade or more. Maybe by then we can transition to something similar with electric vs gas drive and more ability to drive itself safely. I'd love to buy a Chevy Bolt as a second car but we barely need a second car at this point. Our "nice car" will be the second car while we wear out our old car - now repaired. Cheaper per mile, full depreciated and then some, I don't worry about it, etc.

dignam

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: Diesel Wagon/SUV Owners Why or Why Not?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 11:58:17 AM »
OP, agreed that number seems hard to turn down.

If you are good with DIY repairs as you stated, why not buy something more on the used side?  At that point, it matters less what type of SUV/CUV you get (mpg constant of course) as someone else already ate the bulk of the depreciation.

But it sounds like mpg is high on your list as you put a bunch of miles on each year.  Lots of newer "SUVs" (in quotes because many are based on sedan platforms) are getting pretty good mileage with gas engines.  Not as good as diesel but still pretty high.