Author Topic: Did the Great Resignation class of 21-22 just pick the worst time to retire?  (Read 111066 times)

PhilB

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That makes sense.  I like your idea of coming up with your ideal retirement budget and then your "better than working"/less than ideal budget.  I think that buffer makes a big difference and maybe more so than the headline SWR.  Personally, we only have about $5k between our FIRE budget and "its better than working" budget.  I think people who are more laissez faire about swr probably have 25% or more they can cut from their FIRE budget.  Which effectively brings a 4% swr down to 3%.

One of the great inequalities of this game is the fact that, the richer you are / fatter your FIRE, the higher the SWR you can get away with as you have more fat to cut if necessary.  Lean FIRE people (unless they are prepared to go back to work) need to be more prudent.  A classic case of 'to them that have shall be given more' I'm afraid.

nereo

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I keep coming back to the Y2K retiree with 100% stock portfolio and them being down by 2/3rds at the bottom GFC.  At that point your portfolio has gone from x25 to x6.5 x8.3, and you need to withdraw 15%pa to meet living costs and your portfolio has to survive for at least another 20-30 years. Yes, in retrospect the portfolio hasn't failed yet, largely thanks to one of the best post-war bull runs we've had...

..but back in 2009, and faced with that reality I outlined above, how on earth does anyone not think they are going to experience portfolio failure. For me, it would be a continual worry each and every day... and the point of retirement is to not worry about money.

I also understand the concern here, but here's another take on why I don't think focusing on ever-smaller WR is a great strategy:

Let's say a ER wanted something that has historically never failed in the US, so s/he kept working for a bit longer squirreled away 31x expenses (a WR of 3.2%).  Under your same retirement scenario, s/he would have watched their 32x savings drop to about x10.  Yes, better than the ~x8 had they "only" saved up to x25 expenses and retired with a 4% WR, but still gut-wrenchingly low.  Would that person feel much better about their situation?  I'm guessing no if their entire focus had been "get to a level of savings that will never fail".

So to be truly 'comfortable' in a historically large downturn a retiree must be able to do at least one of the following: i) have steadfast faith that the markets will recover with amazing speed to prevent a portfolio failure, ii) have a WR in the low 2% range (and even then it may drop below 25x expenses)), or iii) have strategies which include things beyond just money in equities.

If the strategy remains "more money" the most likely outcome is having way more than you will ever likely deplete (and requires a longer accumulation phase - sometimes considerably so).  That's the predominate approach amount Bogleheads it seems. I just think there are more valuable strategies once you have 20-25x in expenses invested.

It's wasn't down to x8.3, it was down to x6.5 at the nadir because you are forgetting about all the INFLATION that happened between 2000 & 2009,

i.e. If you retired in Jan 2000 on a 4% initial WR and stuck rigidly to your spending plan then at the nadir in March 2009 you would have needed to be drawing out 15.3% on an annualized basis from the portfolio's remaining value in order to maintain the same real level of spending.

not sure how that changes my point in any way

Glenstache

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That makes sense.  I like your idea of coming up with your ideal retirement budget and then your "better than working"/less than ideal budget.  I think that buffer makes a big difference and maybe more so than the headline SWR.  Personally, we only have about $5k between our FIRE budget and "its better than working" budget.  I think people who are more laissez faire about swr probably have 25% or more they can cut from their FIRE budget.  Which effectively brings a 4% swr down to 3%.

(responding to more than just wageslave)
Variable spending plans are known to improve odds of success. Things like a mortgage that is locked in at low % rate (for those of us lucky enough to have been able to take advantage of that over the last couple of years) provides stability in a major expense that should reduce the real baseline budget over time and provide greater flexibility as we age.

Anyone with RE is going to see a minimum of one gut wrencher economic decline in their retirement period. If I lost 50% and got down to 12x at age 70, I wouldn't be that bothered as I'm not likely to live to 100 anyways.  If I ended up there at 55, I'd look at part time work and belt tightening. It is easy to find all of the reasons that things can go wrong- and they may go wrong. But, at some point, a person needs to sit back and look at the holistic picture, recognize the trade offs between continued accumulation vs RE, and what the actual odds of failure (and what that would look like) are. A lot of people in this thread are VERY conservative and risk-averse. That is fine. If you would be unable to enjoy RE because of persistent dread at what-ifs, then what's the point of RE anyways. If someone can't sleep at night with a 3.5%WR, then they probably need to see a therapist about generalized anxiety or whatever anyways. There feels to be an undercurrent of people falling on a sliding scale between FI as a means to maximize freedom to do non-work things vs FI as a means to have security. That is fine, and very, very valid, but will change where you feel comfortable pulling the plug.

lutorm

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I'm sorry, but I'm obsessive compulsive about terminology, and I can't stand this. (I'm quoting bryan995 here but I'm not commenting on him specifically.)
What is the savings rate of one additional year?
What is target SWR?
What is current SWR?
SWR means "Safe Withdrawal Rate". That is the withdrawal rate that would not deplete your assets during your lifetime. You don't target that, it is a fixed, but unknown, number that you can only calculate in hindsight, on your death bed. Your target and current Withdrawal Rates are, are just that: Withdrawal Rates. They may be safe, you hope they're safe, but they may not be.

BeanCounter

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What is the technical term for this "failure bias" ie only people who failed in RE will hang out in forums complaining about how they failed.  And the winners will be off on a beach somewhere.

There's two sides to this

1. There's how you portfolio is doing, objectively
2. Then there's how you feel about your portfolio


I keep coming back to the Y2K retiree with 100% stock portfolio and them being down by 2/3rds at the bottom GFC.  At that point your portfolio has gone from x25 to x6.5, and you need to withdraw 15%pa to meet living costs and your portfolio has to survive for at least another 20-30 years. Yes, in retrospect the portfolio hasn't failed yet, largely thanks to one of the best post-war bull runs we've had...

..but back in 2009, and faced with that reality I outlined above, how on earth does anyone not think they are going to experience portfolio failure. For me, it would be a continual worry each and every day... and the point of retirement is to not worry about money.

The issue in your Y2K example is the 100% stock allocation. Had that retiree had a 80 equities/ 15 bonds / 5 cash split they would have only had a 30% loss and mostly recovered in 2-3 years

In fact if you look into the details of the models in cFiresim, in all the negative market events none of them lost much more than 30% with a diversified portfolio.

Diversification is one part of the formula for increasing success.

bryan995

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I'm sorry, but I'm obsessive compulsive about terminology, and I can't stand this. (I'm quoting bryan995 here but I'm not commenting on him specifically.)
What is the savings rate of one additional year?
What is target SWR?
What is current SWR?

SWR means "Safe Withdrawal Rate". That is the withdrawal rate that would not deplete your assets during your lifetime. You don't target that, it is a fixed, but unknown, number that you can only calculate in hindsight, on your death bed. Your target and current Withdrawal Rates are, are just that: Withdrawal Rates. They may be safe, you hope they're safe, but they may not be.

I suppose SWR is fixed, but as you say, there is no way to know the MAX WR deemed safe, until the day you die and stop spending. You have no choice but to model and attempt to predict your own personal ‘SWR’.

Folks seem to define ‘safe’ as anywhere in the 1-6% withdrawal rate range. I assume the SWR notation is for WR deemed to be in this ‘Goldilocks safe range’, where risk is minimized.

Would you recommend we simply use the term ‘withdrawal rate’? If so then how one would differentiate a target 20% WR from a target 2% WR?  One has >99% of failure while the other has <1% chance of failure.

SWR to me signifies a WR at which the probability of failure is minimized given an individual risk tolerance, and basically approaches 0. Though I also would never use a static withdrawal percentage. I plan for a SVWR (safe variable wirthdrawl rate). And for me, my mean SVWR is somewhere between 2% - 2.5% SWR ;)

Others think it is 4%. And even some think it is 6%!


« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 10:39:24 PM by bryan995 »

Sandi_k

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I'm sorry, but I'm obsessive compulsive about terminology, and I can't stand this. (I'm quoting bryan995 here but I'm not commenting on him specifically.)
What is the savings rate of one additional year?
What is target SWR?
What is current SWR?
SWR means "Safe Withdrawal Rate". That is the withdrawal rate that would not deplete your assets during your lifetime.

This is incorrect. SWR is based on the 4% Rule of Thumb - which absolutely depletes your assets. The test is what withdrawal rate you can use - over 30 years - and not run out of money before you die.

The problem is that it is based on historical circumstances, and in many instances, you die with MORE money than you began with in retirement.

So safe means it lasts 30 years. It does not mean that you don't deplete your assets.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiehopkins/2021/12/06/what-almost-everyone-gets-wrong-about-the-retirement-distribution-4-rule-the-retirement-4-rule-is-not-a-rule/?sh=6557d6b54838

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Safe_withdrawal_rates

vand

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What is the technical term for this "failure bias" ie only people who failed in RE will hang out in forums complaining about how they failed.  And the winners will be off on a beach somewhere.

There's two sides to this

1. There's how you portfolio is doing, objectively
2. Then there's how you feel about your portfolio


I keep coming back to the Y2K retiree with 100% stock portfolio and them being down by 2/3rds at the bottom GFC.  At that point your portfolio has gone from x25 to x6.5, and you need to withdraw 15%pa to meet living costs and your portfolio has to survive for at least another 20-30 years. Yes, in retrospect the portfolio hasn't failed yet, largely thanks to one of the best post-war bull runs we've had...

..but back in 2009, and faced with that reality I outlined above, how on earth does anyone not think they are going to experience portfolio failure. For me, it would be a continual worry each and every day... and the point of retirement is to not worry about money.

The issue in your Y2K example is the 100% stock allocation. Had that retiree had a 80 equities/ 15 bonds / 5 cash split they would have only had a 30% loss and mostly recovered in 2-3 years

In fact if you look into the details of the models in cFiresim, in all the negative market events none of them lost much more than 30% with a diversified portfolio.

Diversification is one part of the formula for increasing success.

You have a good point, and yes I conceed that 100% TSM portfolio is not a sensible asset allocation for anyone if you are aiming for a 4% SWR.

In my defense however, it could well be that today's 75/25 stock/bond portfolio holds as much risk as they Y2K 100/0 portfolio if you take the aggregated risk across both stocks and bonds..

On a risk scale of 1-10, in I would rate stocks in 2000 as a 10 and bonds as a 5.  A 75/25 portfolio therefore would be weighted as (0.75*10 + 0.25*5) = 8.25.

By contrast I would rate the recent stock market as an 8 and bond market as a 10, so total aggregated risk for the 2021 retiree  with a 75/25 would be (0.75*8 +0.25*10) = 8.5.

just an example of course.. you can make up your own scores and asset allocation
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 01:57:30 PM by vand »

Much Fishing to Do

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Folks seem to define ‘safe’ as anywhere in the 1-6% withdrawal rate range. I assume the SWR notation is for WR deemed to be in this ‘Goldilocks safe range’, where risk is minimized.

Would you recommend we simply use the term ‘withdrawal rate’? If so then how one would differentiate a target 20% WR from a target 2% WR?  One has >99% of failure while the other has <1% chance of failure.

SWR to me signifies a WR at which the probability of failure is minimized given an individual risk tolerance, and basically approaches 0. Though I also would never use a static withdrawal percentage. I plan for a SVWR (safe variable wirthdrawl rate). And for me, my mean SVWR is somewhere between 2% - 2.5% SWR ;)

Others think it is 4%. And even some think it is 6%!

I think thats a good way to think about it, across ranges, which I have always thru the years.  I actually even think of 7% as kinda the max border of it, and here's why...I think its completely valid to think of one view to FIRE planning is maximizing the number of years retired.  Once there is less than a 50% chance you'll be Alive & Broke in any future year (both count of course) you pull the trigger.  This seems to happen around 7% at the age of 40+ looking at the Rich, Dead or broke calculator.  If you've chosen wrong and the markets move down you can even go back to work at many points, and work till you get yourself above that 50% again.

Few of us actively practice it that way b/c we know the difficulties involved of going back at the same pay rate....and we, I guess, fear being alive and broke more than working, but I think its a fair consideration.  On the flip side it looks like around 3% is kinda the "perpetual" SWR where one has almost always in the past kept the original balance up across decades.  Of course anything above 0 could always fail.

I'm very comfortable with 4% - 4.5%, but I'm 50, have never seem a relative over 80, and am on a fairly FatFire plan so would never cry over having to cut my budget somewhat in the future...

2sk22

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So to be truly 'comfortable' in a historically large downturn a retiree must be able to do at least one of the following: i) have steadfast faith that the markets will recover with amazing speed to prevent a portfolio failure, ii) have a WR in the low 2% range (and even then it may drop below 25x expenses)), or iii) have strategies which include things beyond just money in equities.

We have not yet had to withdraw from savings after I retired in 2020 because my wife plans to keep working, probably for another couple of years. Given this current dip (the third I have been through since I started working in the 1990s), I recently decided to do some detailed projections using very pessimistic assumptions. Both the Fidelity retirement calculator and Pralana Gold are still projecting a sub 2% WR once my wife decides to retire.

But this was not the result of any deep planning! As I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I kept working until I lost interest in work and it was only then that discovered the concept of early retirement.

I have tried to introspect to see if my decision to retire would have been different if I was planning to, say, retire now. The answer is a definite no - I am enjoying retirement too much and just can't see myself going back to any conventional employment.

bryan995

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Folks seem to define ‘safe’ as anywhere in the 1-6% withdrawal rate range. I assume the SWR notation is for WR deemed to be in this ‘Goldilocks safe range’, where risk is minimized.

Would you recommend we simply use the term ‘withdrawal rate’? If so then how one would differentiate a target 20% WR from a target 2% WR?  One has >99% of failure while the other has <1% chance of failure.

SWR to me signifies a WR at which the probability of failure is minimized given an individual risk tolerance, and basically approaches 0. Though I also would never use a static withdrawal percentage. I plan for a SVWR (safe variable wirthdrawl rate). And for me, my mean SVWR is somewhere between 2% - 2.5% SWR ;)

Others think it is 4%. And even some think it is 6%!

I think thats a good way to think about it, across ranges, which I have always thru the years.  I actually even think of 7% as kinda the max border of it, and here's why...I think its completely valid to think of one view to FIRE planning is maximizing the number of years retired.  Once there is less than a 50% chance you'll be Alive & Broke in any future year (both count of course) you pull the trigger.  This seems to happen around 7% at the age of 40+ looking at the Rich, Dead or broke calculator.  If you've chosen wrong and the markets move down you can even go back to work at many points, and work till you get yourself above that 50% again.

Few of us actively practice it that way b/c we know the difficulties involved of going back at the same pay rate....and we, I guess, fear being alive and broke more than working, but I think its a fair consideration.  On the flip side it looks like around 3% is kinda the "perpetual" SWR where one has almost always in the past kept the original balance up across decades.  Of course anything above 0 could always fail.

I'm very comfortable with 4% - 4.5%, but I'm 50, have never seem a relative over 80, and am on a fairly FatFire plan so would never cry over having to cut my budget somewhat in the future...

Agreed. I am 36, planning to FIRE around 40, but am hoping to live >100. Lots of money in this space, so there is a chance for us all!  ;)
https://www.calicolabs.com/
https://altoslabs.com/
https://www.science.org/content/article/once-you-hit-age-aging-appears-stop

I think one of the key things missed with a say, 7% ‘SWR’ is the amount of buffer one has juiced the numbers by. It varies dramatically per person.

If you have a 5M stash, and plan to pull out $350k (7%) per year, but could survive on a bare bones 50k should the need arise, then I’d argue your ‘SWR’ is really the 50k (1%). (Maybe a new term is indeed needed!)
You target 1%, but then while the gettin-is-good flex the WR up anywhere from 2-7%.

This is vastly different to someone with 750k, and a $52,500 (7%) bare bones ‘SWR’. They don’t have much fluff to cut and are exposed to several magnitudes more risk. 

Perhaps we should all agree and standardize that a SWR % only ever captures your minimum viable / bare bones  expenses?  Or maybe that is already the case on MMM ? ;)

For me, I am shooting for a 1.5% MVVSWR (Minimum Viable Variable Safe Withdrawl Rate) with the ability to flex up to an additional 4% (5.5% total).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 08:22:53 AM by bryan995 »

bacchi

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I think one of the key things missed with a say, 7% ‘SWR’ is the amount of buffer one has juiced the numbers by. It varies dramatically per person.

If you have a 5M stash, and plan to pull out $350k (7%) per year, but could survive on a bare bones 50k should the need arise, then I’d argue your ‘SWR’ is really the 50k (1%). (Maybe a new term is indeed needed!)
You target 1%, but then while the gettin-is-good flex the WR up anywhere from 2-7%.

cfire has some simulations (like percent of portfolio) with a floor and ceiling.

Sandi_k

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I think one of the key things missed with a say, 7% ‘SWR’ is the amount of buffer one has juiced the numbers by. It varies dramatically per person.

If you have a 5M stash, and plan to pull out $350k (7%) per year, but could survive on a bare bones 50k should the need arise, then I’d argue your ‘SWR’ is really the 50k (1%). (Maybe a new term is indeed needed!)
You target 1%, but then while the gettin-is-good flex the WR up anywhere from 2-7%.

cfire has some simulations (like percent of portfolio) with a floor and ceiling.

- The Bogleheads have the Variable Percentage Withdrawal Rate.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Variable_percentage_withdrawal#VPW_Accumulation_And_Retirement_Worksheet

- Also: academic researchers have evolved the Guyton-Klinger Guardrails method.

https://cornerstonewealthadvisors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/08-06_WebsiteArticle.pdf


Telecaster

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Agreed. I am 36, planning to FIRE around 40, but am hoping to live >100. Lots of money in this space, so there is a chance for us all!  ;)
https://www.calicolabs.com/
https://altoslabs.com/
https://www.science.org/content/article/once-you-hit-age-aging-appears-stop

I think one of the key things missed with a say, 7% ‘SWR’ is the amount of buffer one has juiced the numbers by. It varies dramatically per person.

If you have a 5M stash, and plan to pull out $350k (7%) per year, but could survive on a bare bones 50k should the need arise, then I’d argue your ‘SWR’ is really the 50k (1%). (Maybe a new term is indeed needed!)
You target 1%, but then while the gettin-is-good flex the WR up anywhere from 2-7%.

This is vastly different to someone with 750k, and a $52,500 (7%) bare bones ‘SWR’. They don’t have much fluff to cut and are exposed to several magnitudes more risk. 

Perhaps we should all agree and standardize that a SWR % only ever captures your minimum viable / bare bones  expenses?  Or maybe that is already the case on MMM ? ;)

For me, I am shooting for a 1.5% MVVSWR (Minimum Viable Variable Safe Withdrawl Rate) with the ability to flex up to an additional 4% (5.5% total).

You guys are making it way too hard.  We don't need new terms because the old terms work fine.  The SWR is the maximum withdrawal rate that would have survived 95% of 30 year periods in the past, which turns out to be 4% of a standard portfolio.   A  7% withdrawal rate does not meet that criteria, so it cannot be the SWR by definition.  Now, you can withdraw 7% a year if you like, but that has nothing to do with the SWR. 

The SWR also doesn't know about your expenses.   It only knows about what worked in the past.   Therefore, your expenses cannot be used to figure the SWR.   You can use your expenses to figure out your personal withdrawal rate.  But not the SWR.   

Villanelle

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Sometimes, I think people take "barista FIRE" a bit too literally.  It could also be a part time consulting gig, where you make 5x as much as a barista, but likely at least somewhat less than you made in your "big girl" job. 

And there is something to be said for sweet, sweet flexibility.  I've long championed substitute teaching for those who qualify (and in the US are willing to risk their life to be in a school, I suppose).  Pay is pretty mediocre, but it doesn't get much more flexible than that.  You can tell the system to not even contact you on Tuesdays because that is when your model train club meets. You can take 3 weeks away to travel and not even have to tell anyone.  Yes, you are making less money per hour.  But you can fit work in around your life, instead of vice versa. 

One of the reasons I've been cultivating my freelance writing stuff, in addition to just wanting to write, is that I can 100% work on my own schedule.  In a crazy month, I don't take any extra jobs.  (Currently I have one stream where I just opt in if they are offering something that sounds interesting to me, or if I pitch an idea and they like it.  And the other is that I write 4 short pieces per month, on my own scheduled and, once I'm up and running, with the ability to write several months in advance.  I'll likely be getting an additional assignment, so that's 6 pieces a month.)  I can literally do all my work in 1-2 days a month, or spend 20 minutes a day for a few weeks, or anything in between.  The hourly pay is  way less than I could make full time, but I will never, ever have to say no to anything in life because of a work conflict. 

I'd rather to that for literally the rest of my life than work 8-5 in an office, with "permission" granted to take 2 weeks off a year, for another 6 months.  (And also, doing so means that while the hourly is much lower, so is the tax burden, compared to 6 months of high-pay work.)

These are just examples, but to me the biggest appeal of barista FIRE is the flexibility.  And to some extent the scalability.  (If markets are down once I start withdrawing, I can hopefully get a few extra gigs each month.)

The only time I needed to find a job was at the bottom of the 2009 bear market. The bear market also corresponded with the great recession. That these two events occurred at the same time is not a coincidence but rather typical.  I would have been lucky to find a job as a barista or Walmart greeter at the time, lots of hungrier, more qualified were looking for work, than a high-tech marketing guy who had been retired for a decade. Among my volunteer activities, I worked as docent a at several tourist places here in Honolulu.  I worked alongside paid staff, doing very similar jobs. So part-time jobs were options for many years, just not after the 9/11 recession or the 2008-9 recession.   But in my experience, part-time jobs are flexible more for the employer than the employee.  You can say that you can't work Tuesday for your model train club, or more plausible you have to take your uncle for dialysis, but they decide when you work the rest of the week.

I'm pretty sure that the market for freelance writers was also a lot tighter in 2009 than in 2021 or 2022. Freelancers, contractors, and part-time employees are pretty much always the first ones to go during a recession.  I suspect that even the demand for substitute teachers decreases during a recession.  I know several of my friends who get laid off in their 50s or early 60s have gone the teaching route.  Personally, I would have rather worked 3 years at my old job than one year as a substitute teacher, even if the pay was equivalent. In reality OMY at my old job, I would have made 3x as much as a substitute teacher.

I think the point of barista FIRE, as I understand it, it not to go find a job as a barista or anything else if the market goes bearish.  It is to already have the job.  You work at that for a time after you retire from your full-time, stressful job.  So it's not about going out and finding something new once the need arises.  It's not about trying to start as a freelance writer when it is 2009.  It's about already being a freelance writer in 2007.   That means you aren't scrambling, and it also means that you hopefully aren't the new guy, and a record of doing great, reliable work, so if and when cuts are made, it's not you.

One of many reasons I'm getting foothold in the freelancing is so that I already have it up and running.  I'm more liking to keep some or all of my gigs in a down market than I am to find something new when lay offs are happening and I'm competing with other desperate people. 

And there are many examples of extremely flexible part time jobs.  Substitute teaching is one of them.  You can take off every Tuesday for train club and every Friday for dialysis, and no one can tell you that means you must work on Wednesday if you don't want to.  Same with my freelance writing, where it is 100% my own schedule, and to some extent even scalable in that if I want to work less I don't take more assignments, and if I have some busy time coming up, I can write ahead on my ongoing projects that I can't opt out of.  I'm still getting established in my most recent gig but once I am, I will be able to work 8-10 hours for 3 days, and then not do any work for 2-3 months.   There are plenty of things like this.  Even being an actual barista--if you find a place that will hire your M, W, Th, then you likely only have to work those days.  No conflict with trains and kidneys.  Being available during the week is advantageous because students or people doing this as a second job are less likely to be available. 

frugalor

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When I retired, in 99/2000, like today we were at tail end of the web 1.0 internet stock bubble.  The class of 2000 retiree is the worse off class since sometime in the mid-1960s.  By the time the great recession hit us right after the dot com bubble burst and the  bear market of 2000-2002. Someone with 25x portfolio and no cushion, was looking at their portfolio being cut in 1/2 at normal AA ratios and a current withdrawal rate of close to 8%. Now the great bull market of 2009-2021 helped a lot but the 2000 retiree portfolio is below (in real terms) their starting portfolio. If was a 30-year retirement, it is very likely they'll still have a bit money after 30 years.  However, if you were 39 like I was when I retireed. You are still looking at another 20-35 years of retirement.  At the start of bear market, running out of money before you die is a distinct possibility.

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/01/18/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-6-a-2000-2016-case-study/

Luckily, in my experience, most people are disciplined enough to retirement early, has some slack in their budget. Even if that is not true, they are flexible.  One obvious thing to do is to skip the cost of living adjustment. If you retired this year with $1.3 million and planned to spend $50K/year.  Instead of giving yourself a cost of living raise next year to $54 or $55K, consider keeping spending flat or maybe only $1,000-2,000.  Then catch up during the next bull market.

You have pointed out a very tough/unfortunate timing here.  However, it could happen to anyone.  I am not FIRED yet, but that the peak of the market, I could have, with lots of cushion.  But I can no longer FIRED now.  It's a painful time and I have learned a few things.  I hope when I look at at this threat a few years from now, things will turn better.  If things do turn better in the future, then I would be more confident to actually FIRE.

clifp

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I do think having a cushion is very important.  Let me say this is only for early retirements, and especially super early (under 40). If you are 65 or 62, 4% is plenty conservative enough.
In all likelihood, a person who retired at 65 in 2000, is quite possibly running out of money today, they are also pretty likely dead. Although, I think a couple has close to a 50/50 to have a survivor at 87.
That's not true for a 40 or 50-yearold EARLY retirees.

I'll also say life is too short to work at a job you hate.

Now to me working part-time as a barista, or substitute teacher sounds very stressful and boring.  A sidekick where you are your own boss sounds a bit better, but even then, being self-employed is no walk in the park.  IMO, working another year or two is preferable to establish this cushion.  Also keep in mind the money you have the bottom of this bear market is going some of the most valuable money you'll have. So if you are working you are saving not spending it.

Also context is important, I retired with 33X and enough cushion on spending to get down to 40x.  The Trinity study had just been published, this mrmoneymustache.com  didn't exist, Early-Retirement.org didn't exist, and Google had barely started.   So I was blissfully unaware, of the handful of studies. I just knew that $3 million was a lot money ($5 million in today's dollars).

In 22 years of retirement, I only worried about money from Feb of 2009 through Sept. 2009.  I'm very fortunate, since the vast number of working people worry about more than I do.

Frugalor, I'm sure you be fine.

Must_ache

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Quote
If you've chosen wrong and the markets move down you can even go back to work at many points, and work till you get yourself above that 50% again.

Can you?  "At many points"? That may work when you retire in Dec2021 and the market collapses in Jan2022 and you aren't too old yet, but if you are older and and maybe not in as good health, this might not be a viable option.

Anytime I hear someone lean on the "I'll just return to work" if things go south, I think to myself this isn't a "Safe" withdrawal rate at all.  If that is your contingency plan that's fine, but I  wish that scenario were off the table when talking about a proper SWR.   
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 10:06:16 AM by Must_ache »

Glenstache

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Quote
If you've chosen wrong and the markets move down you can even go back to work at many points, and work till you get yourself above that 50% again.

Can you?  "At many points"? That may work when you retire in Dec2021 and the market collapses in Jan2022 and you aren't too old yet, but if you are older and and maybe not in as good health, this might not be a viable option.

Anytime I hear someone lean on the "I'll just return to work" if things go south, I think to myself this isn't a "Safe" withdrawal rate at all.  If that is your contingency plan that's fine, but I  wish that scenario were off the table when talking about a proper SWR.   
A "proper SWR" by definition is a 95% probability of not running out of money in a 30 year window (per the studies). As stated above, it has a specific meaning. Using the terminology and focusing on the word "safe" out of that context is incorrect usage. If people feel that 4% is not "safe", that is a different issue. The discussion of mitigation strategies would come into play in 5% of those cases (assuming random start date).

If people are uncomfortable with the 95% threshold, they should simply say that they want a 99% or whatever probability. But the reality is that the risk can be diminished, but not eliminated. That's just not how life works. Having a solid sense of what your mitigation strategies could look like is worth considering. It is also true that the actual FIRE date people choose is often based on a complex set of factors ranging from spousal considerations, desire to see a work project through, utterly soul-crushing work conditions, the date of that last bonus, the date of a pension activating, and the psychology of finally making the plunge. For some it is a hard stop and for others it is a glide path taper down. For others it comes in fits and starts as they play with consulting work on and off after quitting FT work.

So, to the thread title: I expect for some lean-lean FIRE people, this could have been an unfortunate time to FIRE. Historically, not the worst. For some it will have been just fine. It seems a lot of the most worried people in this thread are not the ones who are on the cusp of FIRE, but those whose date is years away and seeing a pretty routine market drop and freaking out. I would say that they should keep investing and learning to expect this to happen and develop skills for how to take the long view and understand risk and volatility. IF the last 6 months made you change from thinking you need to plan for 4% to thinking you need 3.5% WR, then you are having an emotional reaction to recent volatility. Relative to historic trends, this is not a huge blip. This is expected market behavior.

GuitarStv

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My suspicions are that a return to work is a somewhat time limited opportunity for many of us.  Six months off and finding a new job?  No problem.  A year?  Yeah, sure, probably possible to get back into the swing of things.  Trying to jump back into software development after 4-5 years off?  That's going to be hard.

You can always find work of some sort . . . but getting the kind of pay that you left to ER will be pretty tricky.

PhilB

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My suspicions are that a return to work is a somewhat time limited opportunity for many of us.  Six months off and finding a new job?  No problem.  A year?  Yeah, sure, probably possible to get back into the swing of things.  Trying to jump back into software development after 4-5 years off?  That's going to be hard.

You can always find work of some sort . . . but getting the kind of pay that you left to ER will be pretty tricky.

That's why you want to cover off 95% of cases before FIRE when you have the big salary.  If there's a reasonable chance you'll need more money, then gather that money when you're at peak earnings.  For that last 5% - which 19 times out of 20 won't be needed - some combination of lower paid work and restricting spending works for me.

EscapeVelocity2020

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...

So, to the thread title: I expect for some lean-lean FIRE people, this could have been an unfortunate time to FIRE. Historically, not the worst. For some it will have been just fine. It seems a lot of the most worried people in this thread are not the ones who are on the cusp of FIRE, but those whose date is years away and seeing a pretty routine market drop and freaking out. I would say that they should keep investing and learning to expect this to happen and develop skills for how to take the long view and understand risk and volatility. IF the last 6 months made you change from thinking you need to plan for 4% to thinking you need 3.5% WR, then you are having an emotional reaction to recent volatility. Relative to historic trends, this is not a huge blip. This is expected market behavior.

Just my 2 cents, but I don't think the Fed has turned the corner just yet on getting inflation under control while also engineering a soft economic landing.  While it's true that markets have stabilized a bit last week, the Fed has an untold amount of rate hikes ahead before inflation is back to their 2% target rate.  It will also be interesting to follow employment data as companies look for ways to cut costs in the face of rising wages...

I think the jury is still out as to how this Great Resignation class ultimately fares in the face of currently high inflation and negative market returns.  Heck, the jury is still out on the Y2K class, and they are nearing their 30 year graduation! 

4% SWR may yet have new cohorts to add to the 5% failure data, which would make life awfully interesting in the FIRE sphere.  I wonder then if FIRE seeking folks would want the SWR to still reflect 95% success (the '3.5% Rule'?) or if they stick with 4% and accept it correlating to 90% success.

Edit to add - Portfolio Analysis, Y2K retiree with 100% US stock

2nd Edit to add the quote -
"It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours." , Harry S Truman
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 12:07:30 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Villanelle

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Quote
If you've chosen wrong and the markets move down you can even go back to work at many points, and work till you get yourself above that 50% again.

Can you?  "At many points"? That may work when you retire in Dec2021 and the market collapses in Jan2022 and you aren't too old yet, but if you are older and and maybe not in as good health, this might not be a viable option.

Anytime I hear someone lean on the "I'll just return to work" if things go south, I think to myself this isn't a "Safe" withdrawal rate at all.  If that is your contingency plan that's fine, but I  wish that scenario were off the table when talking about a proper SWR.   

To me a "proper" (whatever that means in this context) SWR is just the basic plan for when someone retires.  "I look at my life and think I'll want to spend around $40k/y.  To get there, I saved $1m, and will thus plan a 4% SWR."  That doesn't mean that exact plan needs to account for every contingency.  To me, there is no conflict if that person adds, "If my spouse get an illness that costs tens of thousand to treat, I'll probably pick up a part time job", or "if the markets are down 50%, I'll aim to cut expenses by at least 25% and to pick up some work if I can." 

To me, the SWR is just the first layer of the plan.

My plan included a small side gig that I don't even really count as income, but that I can likely scale up at least somewhat if needed or wanted, even potentially in a down market.  (We are talking thousands of dollars/yr, not tens or hundreds of thousands, but when the markets are down, every dollar not needed to be withdrawn is important.)  I also have every reason to believe I'll be getting a large inheritance, but I also don't specifically account for that, other then as an additional safety net.  We will have a fat FIRE, so the possibility of cutting expenses or delaying planned activities or purchases is yet another layer of our plan.

That doesn't mean I'm not planning for a 4% SWR.  It just means that I'm not so arrogant as to think I know exactly what they future holds, and I've got options to explore if it looks more and more like I might be in that 5% of the studies, or if my expenses increase for some reason.  Or if pig fly or swans start showing gray roots. 

I also think that "I'll return to work" means so many different things.  As I said above, I imagine it being a slight scaling up that brings in a few hundred dollars a month.  That kind of job likely won't be too hard to find.  Even during a downturn, people need dog sitters.  To me, those options also don't sound painful because even though they are generally low pay, they are low stress, low-responsibility, flexible, and likely very part-time.  If the *possibility* of giving back 50 days a year at some point in the future is what buys me and my spouse the ability to take back all 365 days tomorrow?  Done.  I'll take that transaction without hesitation. 

But to some people, it seems like "return to work" means going back to the same field for close to the same pay.  I'd agree that while sometimes that's possible, it's probably pretty unusual after a couple years away. 

But having a low-pay gig of some kind as one potential option, as-needed, and bringing in only enough to cushion things slightly?  That seems very realistic. 

wageslave23

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[/quote]

So, to the thread title: I expect for some lean-lean FIRE people, this could have been an unfortunate time to FIRE. Historically, not the worst. For some it will have been just fine. It seems a lot of the most worried people in this thread are not the ones who are on the cusp of FIRE, but those whose date is years away and seeing a pretty routine market drop and freaking out. I would say that they should keep investing and learning to expect this to happen and develop skills for how to take the long view and understand risk and volatility. IF the last 6 months made you change from thinking you need to plan for 4% to thinking you need 3.5% WR, then you are having an emotional reaction to recent volatility. Relative to historic trends, this is not a huge blip. This is expected market behavior.
[/quote]

We technically hit FI with a 4% withdrawal rate in March.  Was I even remotely considering FIRE?  Nope, not with the video game like market returns over the past few years.  I discounted the value of my assets by 20%, knowing that the asset gains were due to temporary pumping of money into the system.  If I was at 3.5% WR currently, I'd consider FIRE because the market is less overpriced.  But considering I plan on being lean FIRE without a lot I could cut, and not wanting to go back to work either part time or full time, I'll stick with my cake, remote job, that pays 6 figures that I worked 10+ yrs to get.

vand

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

And since the orthordoxy is that you stay invested through the ups and downs, it stands to reason that historically there have been very few people who found themselves on the cusp of FIRE before a market downturn whose investments survived well enough to put them in a position where they could still FIRE just as the market comes out the other side of a downturn.

maizefolk

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

shuffler

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

So did Big ERN on his site, coming to a similar conclusion:

Quote
As expected, endogenous retirement timing increases the failure probabilities. But not by a lot. Somewhere around 2-4 percentage points for the 4% Rule and less than 1 percentage point for the 3.25% withdrawal rate (at least for the high equity weights). The 4% Rule becomes a little bit less appealing than it already is but not by much. The 3.25% Rule doesn’t seem to be impacted much at all! I was very surprised by those numbers. I would have thought that the endogenous retirement timing would have made more of a difference. There is certainly a noticeable and significant impact, but a few percentage points in the failure rate don’t make or break a SWR.

vand

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

So did Big ERN on his site, coming to a similar conclusion:

Quote
As expected, endogenous retirement timing increases the failure probabilities. But not by a lot. Somewhere around 2-4 percentage points for the 4% Rule and less than 1 percentage point for the 3.25% withdrawal rate (at least for the high equity weights). The 4% Rule becomes a little bit less appealing than it already is but not by much. The 3.25% Rule doesn’t seem to be impacted much at all! I was very surprised by those numbers. I would have thought that the endogenous retirement timing would have made more of a difference. There is certainly a noticeable and significant impact, but a few percentage points in the failure rate don’t make or break a SWR.

This is really excellent stuff.. the historically simulated nuance is greatly underappreciated.

"But none of the peak safe withdrawal rates are ever feasible for the early retirees. That’s because they occur when the market is depressed and nobody can afford to retire, like 1932, 1949, 1982, 2002 and 2009."

...one can find examples where even with a 4% withdrawal rate the portfolio would have grown to five 5+ times its initial value (inflation-adjusted!!!) after 30 years. The only problem: that would have been the cohorts starting retirement in 1932 or 1982, at the bottom of some of the worst recessions and bear markets. Nobody following the “Simple Math” method would have ever retired back then!"


ixtap

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We are leaning towards a DIY, unsupported, seems logical, but math can disprove instinctual logic and one never can tell plan.

We take a financial snapshot every six months. We have decided to run any SWR math on the previous high. For example, if we wanted to retire now, the previous high was actually early Dec 2022. Obviously, that wasn't market high (point in our favor for being a little conservative). Moreover, as of tomorrow, we will have added $61k to 401k, a few thousand to HSA. So even though the new total is 7% less than the previous, we feel that the additional savings provides an additional buffer.

In reality, DH's manager talked him into staying on part-time, and we should still be able to save. So we may come up with a new plan before we actually start withdrawals.

Much Fishing to Do

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

So did Big ERN on his site, coming to a similar conclusion:

Quote
As expected, endogenous retirement timing increases the failure probabilities. But not by a lot. Somewhere around 2-4 percentage points for the 4% Rule and less than 1 percentage point for the 3.25% withdrawal rate (at least for the high equity weights). The 4% Rule becomes a little bit less appealing than it already is but not by much. The 3.25% Rule doesn’t seem to be impacted much at all! I was very surprised by those numbers. I would have thought that the endogenous retirement timing would have made more of a difference. There is certainly a noticeable and significant impact, but a few percentage points in the failure rate don’t make or break a SWR.

This is really excellent stuff.. the historically simulated nuance is greatly underappreciated.

"But none of the peak safe withdrawal rates are ever feasible for the early retirees. That’s because they occur when the market is depressed and nobody can afford to retire, like 1932, 1949, 1982, 2002 and 2009."

...one can find examples where even with a 4% withdrawal rate the portfolio would have grown to five 5+ times its initial value (inflation-adjusted!!!) after 30 years. The only problem: that would have been the cohorts starting retirement in 1932 or 1982, at the bottom of some of the worst recessions and bear markets. Nobody following the “Simple Math” method would have ever retired back then!"


All very interesting.  It makes me think of a few different things that have come up in the past, 1) that, unless one's income/savings is extremely high in relation to their 'stache, you;re always gonna be hitting your target SWR and declaring FI when markets are doing great and at their highs, 2) me always saying 5% was a solid SWR, and 4% was what everyone liked because 4% becomes 5% after the expected 20% drop that fate says will occur the week after you pull the plug, and 3) me joking last year that I needed to "hurry up and retire" in case the market dropped and I was no longer FI so wouldn't be allowed to under my SWR plans.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

So did Big ERN on his site, coming to a similar conclusion:

Quote
As expected, endogenous retirement timing increases the failure probabilities. But not by a lot. Somewhere around 2-4 percentage points for the 4% Rule and less than 1 percentage point for the 3.25% withdrawal rate (at least for the high equity weights). The 4% Rule becomes a little bit less appealing than it already is but not by much. The 3.25% Rule doesn’t seem to be impacted much at all! I was very surprised by those numbers. I would have thought that the endogenous retirement timing would have made more of a difference. There is certainly a noticeable and significant impact, but a few percentage points in the failure rate don’t make or break a SWR.

This is really excellent stuff.. the historically simulated nuance is greatly underappreciated.

"But none of the peak safe withdrawal rates are ever feasible for the early retirees. That’s because they occur when the market is depressed and nobody can afford to retire, like 1932, 1949, 1982, 2002 and 2009."

...one can find examples where even with a 4% withdrawal rate the portfolio would have grown to five 5+ times its initial value (inflation-adjusted!!!) after 30 years. The only problem: that would have been the cohorts starting retirement in 1932 or 1982, at the bottom of some of the worst recessions and bear markets. Nobody following the “Simple Math” method would have ever retired back then!"


What would you do with that nuance then? What's the "rule" you would suppose? It's always going to be the case that people have the most when the markets are high and are going to meet whatever their threshold is (4%, 3.5%, 3.2%, etc.) at a market high.

lutorm

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It's probably true that if you define your SWR as the withdrawal rate that has some small but nonzero failure rate, you're more likely to FIRE in one of the years that fail. If you define your SWR as 100% success rate, though, the year you FIRE is obviously not a factor. So this effect must be less and less important the higher success rate you demand (and depend on your savings rate before FIRE.)

Sandi_k

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What would you do with that nuance then? What's the "rule" you would suppose? It's always going to be the case that people have the most when the markets are high and are going to meet whatever their threshold is (4%, 3.5%, 3.2%, etc.) at a market high.

They may have the most when markets are high. But that doesn't mean that they hit their threshold at a market high. I see it instead as the TIMING forces with withdrawal rate.

If you decide to retire, no matter what - then presumably you pick a withdrawal rate that matches that timeline. So for us, retiring at age 60, we assume retirement of 35 years' duration.

REGARDLESS of where are investments are, we will retire. And because we assume a longer period of retirement, we will not use 4% as our WR. We are planning on 3.5% for age 60-65, and 3.75% for age 65-70, and then 4%.

vand

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Another thing about the 4% rule's supposedly 95% success rate:

It's a 95% success rate by theoretical calendar period, not by case study.

That is to say that the starting point for failures or near-failure tend to cluster around the points just after markets have had their strongest period of performance and carried a large number of people across the line. 

Failure rates from starting points where the market is cheap/reasonable are very safe.. but the paradox is that nobody is in a position to retire at those points. 

@gerardc investigated this back in 2017. The time of hitting your retirement number effect is real, but quite small in size for people saving significant percentages of their income, it is the difference between a 94.7% success rate and a 93% success rate for people who are saving significant amounts of money.

So did Big ERN on his site, coming to a similar conclusion:

Quote
As expected, endogenous retirement timing increases the failure probabilities. But not by a lot. Somewhere around 2-4 percentage points for the 4% Rule and less than 1 percentage point for the 3.25% withdrawal rate (at least for the high equity weights). The 4% Rule becomes a little bit less appealing than it already is but not by much. The 3.25% Rule doesn’t seem to be impacted much at all! I was very surprised by those numbers. I would have thought that the endogenous retirement timing would have made more of a difference. There is certainly a noticeable and significant impact, but a few percentage points in the failure rate don’t make or break a SWR.

This is really excellent stuff.. the historically simulated nuance is greatly underappreciated.

"But none of the peak safe withdrawal rates are ever feasible for the early retirees. That’s because they occur when the market is depressed and nobody can afford to retire, like 1932, 1949, 1982, 2002 and 2009."

...one can find examples where even with a 4% withdrawal rate the portfolio would have grown to five 5+ times its initial value (inflation-adjusted!!!) after 30 years. The only problem: that would have been the cohorts starting retirement in 1932 or 1982, at the bottom of some of the worst recessions and bear markets. Nobody following the “Simple Math” method would have ever retired back then!"


What would you do with that nuance then? What's the "rule" you would suppose? It's always going to be the case that people have the most when the markets are high and are going to meet whatever their threshold is (4%, 3.5%, 3.2%, etc.) at a market high.

My own takeaway is that the upper quartile or so of "possible outcomes" should be taken off the table.  You can easily erroneously conclude from playing with cfiresim etc that "there is a much better chance of you dying with multiple times your starting wealth than dying broke" and shoot for more aggressive asset allocation.

As we have discussed above this is simply nonsense when you effectively take the best scenarios off the table due to no one being in a position to retire at those opportune points in market history.

I see people still fixated on stock-heavy portfolios with complex guardrail rules to give them a chance of preserving the chance of upside that stock heavy portfolios offer.  Newsflash: it just ain't gonna happen from today's starting levels.

Therefore asset allocation should remain at the forefront of your drawdown strategy. Don't shoot for the upper end of the distribution or even the median, shoot for the lower quartile.

Retirees today should pay very great attention to *what* is in their portfolio. The historic selection of stocks/bonds has rarely been more poised to deliver mediocre results when taken as a whole. 

PhilB

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The historic selection of stocks/bonds has rarely been more poised to deliver mediocre results when taken as a whole.

So you're saying Top is In?

BeanCounter

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I'm a bit of a worrier and an over planner. I also get that this is a complicated subject. But some of the "mental gymnastics" going on in this thread are kind of astounding to me.

The variable percentage withdraw sheet from Bogleheads that someone posted up thread really makes the most sense. You have to do the math to see if your WR can flex as your portfolio might change. How much wiggle room do you have? Because regardless of when you pick to retire there will be down markets.

We picked our SWR by using cFiresim at a 98% confidence level for 50 years. That more than covers our bills.  We also looked amount we could safely draw off 70% of our portfolio (assuming that there would be a 30% drop in the market). That covers a bare budget for us. So in my mind that's FI. We also have two years of bare bones expenses in cash and that should help cover expenses while the portfolio recovers.

It's important to note that the Bogleheads formula and cFiresim- none of them suggest that 4% is a SWR for a 95% confidence level for a 50 year retirement. It works for 30 years but not 50. So your age matters. And it matters more than what the market is doing when you retire. So if you go in with a blind 4% WR at age 40 or (gasp) 30 you are more likely to have a failure without another pivot in mind (like part time work etc).



rantk81

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The historic selection of stocks/bonds has rarely been more poised to deliver mediocre results when taken as a whole.

So you're saying Top is In?

I struggle with thinking about asset allocation.  I can't bring myself to buy bonds at a negative "real" interest rate...  Currently (and for the past several years) this has pretty much excluded any thoughts of making bond purchases (except I-Bonds -- which I'm limited as to how much I can purchase each year.)
And even then, I-Bonds are technically a negative real interest rate too, since they are set up to only match inflation (with the interest being considered taxable income eventually!).  But they're "less bad" of a deal than regular treasuries or corporate bonds....

vand

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A really informative blog post from Ben Carlson on the worst historic outcomes for a 60/40:

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2022/06/the-worst-years-ever-for-a-60-40-portfolio/

Note that all figures are nominal only. It's quite easy to imagine 2021 slotting into these "worst performance" tables as the next 5-10 years unfolds imo.

Worst 5 year stretches


Worst 10 years stretches

Much Fishing to Do

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It's important to note that the Bogleheads formula and cFiresim- none of them suggest that 4% is a SWR for a 95% confidence level for a 50 year retirement. It works for 30 years but not 50. So your age matters. And it matters more than what the market is doing when you retire. So if you go in with a blind 4% WR at age 40 or (gasp) 30 you are more likely to have a failure without another pivot in mind (like part time work etc).

Though I would like to point out I don't think this is even outrageously risky.  Using the rich broke or dead calculator to greatly simplify, if one were to retire with a 60/40 portfolio and a 4% SWR at 30, then using past performance there's never greater than a 12% chance you are alive and broke at any date forward.

Geldsnor

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I wish there were an easy way to poll folks mid-thread on how this forum generally feels about a OMY this year, if they were FI and planned to ER in, say, July…. But there’s also that slippery slope element to OMY, and maybe in this tight labor market it would work out well to get a break then find a better work situation for your OMY if it turns out to be necessary….

That is one of the many quirks to this high inflation, negative market year - loads of job openings!


FIREing in July is exactly what I will do. Have been doing some OMYs already, so not planning to add a year because of some headwind (or two or three, because who knows how long this market downturn + high inflation will take?). So even though I am just a single example, I believe many have added a bit of a cushion on top of the already conservative 4% SWR before pulling the trigger. So I decided to rather risk needing to get back to work for a bit than giving away my time for money I in the end don't need.

2Birds1Stone

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2022 cohort member here. I would have pulled the plug April 30th but between markets and inflation just taking it month to month.

I quit in April, just haven't notified the employer.

wageslave23

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2022 cohort member here. I would have pulled the plug April 30th but between markets and inflation just taking it month to month.

I quit in April, just haven't notified the employer.

Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

henramdrea

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2022 cohort member here. I would have pulled the plug April 30th but between markets and inflation just taking it month to month.

I quit in April, just haven't notified the employer.

Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

Haha!  I kinda wondered the same thing.  I suppose one can simply, mentally checkout of a job, doing the absolute minimum and get that sense of quitting.  I've been in that mode for the last 2 years...only 7 more to go.  Wonder when they'll figure out I've "quit"?

BikeFanatic

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I get it, you “quit” by pulling back on production. I did that after my last review. Worked like hell up until that point, got a great review, then cut my work back by 20 percent or so. I was watched through
Automated computer spy program, and my production stats were monitored carefully, so not able to cut back more than that for the last 4 months. I remember that my underboss was doing my monthly
Review of my work, and I told her, I only have 6 weeks left until I retire the first week of 2021.
Told her I am only giving 2 weeks notice so the brand new big boss can’t screw me over on my vacation time payout. She kept it to herself and didn’t push me as she had been, I think retiring is leavening on the best terms, so much more acceptable by the company versus quitting where they get so mad
About how much they invested in you with “training”.

2Birds1Stone

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Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5YfJV12Xyo

rantk81

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I had hit my number (actually exceeded it) prior to the recent market correction.

I guess I probably still am "at" my "number", even after this market sell-off thus far.

But I'm really glad I didn't pull the rip-cord on my FIRE-chute yet.  I feel very fortunate to continue to have the "firehose of cash" coming in, to buy stocks at the current "discount" in price!

I'll probably OMY until the market recovers, or if my employer does layoffs and lets me go -- either one will probably mark the beginning of my early retirement.

wageslave23

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Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5YfJV12Xyo

Awesome.  I "quit" a looong time ago.  Keep up the good work ;)

2Birds1Stone

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Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5YfJV12Xyo

Awesome.  I "quit" a looong time ago.  Keep up the good work ;)

Haha! Do you work from home too? It's amazing. I get all of my shopping, walking, biking, reading, gardening, gaming, errands and calls with friends and family done during normal business hours.

wageslave23

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Lol what does that mean? An office space scenario where you don't work anymore but they think you do?

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5YfJV12Xyo

Awesome.  I "quit" a looong time ago.  Keep up the good work ;)

Haha! Do you work from home too? It's amazing. I get all of my shopping, walking, biking, reading, gardening, gaming, errands and calls with friends and family done during normal business hours.

Yep. It's actually kind of stressful because I have this self induced pressure to get all other chores done during work hours. I.e cook and eat breakfast and lunch, dishes, mow lawn, cut hair, watch our baby so my wife can get stuff done, any other house projects, daily nap, etc.  At this point I don't know if it would even be possible to go back into the office full-time.

2Birds1Stone

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I could never go back to the office after experiencing that freedom. We're left with so much free time in the mornings, evenings and weekends it's incredible.