Author Topic: DH has a work issue...  (Read 25511 times)

Linea_Norway

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DH has a work issue...
« on: January 24, 2018, 02:56:58 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 04:51:01 AM by Linea_Norway »

Zamboni

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 03:03:56 AM »
This work situation certainly sounds like a recipe for disaster. It sounds like your DH has done his best to communicate the issues in a reasonable and professional manner. With his health being at stake, it's probably time for him to give them some version of "this has to change, pronto, or I'm walking permanently."

Good luck!

Loren Ver

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2018, 05:44:30 AM »
This really is terrible.  I like that your husband is trying to work with the company, but his boss is useless.

I think he needs to tell them about the staffing issue, and then tell them he will work his 100% and no more.  If they want all the work done, they need to hire more people and each person works only 100%.  Once some of the work stops getting done, maybe the boss will start paying attention as his books no longer look so good.

I am so glad you husband can walk away if needed.  You two have set your family up well and given yourself options!  Good for you!!

LV

LV

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 06:20:23 AM »
DH is now planning to have a serious conversation with his boss to find out what has been done in the past to weeks about the resource situation. And if he is not happy about it, he will talk with the boss at the level above. He eventually wants to threaten to quit, if they don't replace his boss with a better manager. We have the impression that the company needs DH more than they need his manager. But management teams also tend to support each other... DH will have to do these conversations on top of his already full plate of work, so this causes extra stress.

We have a good pile of FU money. We are almost FI, if we manage to get a good price for our clown house. We can easily live of less than my salary. So I gave DH my blessing to play it hard, after first trying to play is softly.
Not having DH's (higher than mine) salary this year would be a set back. But his health and his sanity are more important. He is currently extremely demotivated to start working again and has been demotivated in the past half year to have to do everything alone. Boss has not contributed anything to give DH better working conditions, which  his boss is responsible for.

I am curious how this will end.

Handling it the right way. Have 'the talk' with the boss, if not satisfied with the next level. If still not satisfied draft a writeup and send to the VP level the same time as your resignation. FWIW I did this at a workplace and although I was already gone I followed through former co-workers and it initiated sweeping change including the eventual termination of the manager and director causing the issues.

Your husband had a job before this job I assume, he can have one after. Or not in your case. :D

He can't have another life if his heart gives out, and in any case why would you want to deal with being miserable for any length of time when you don't have to.

PhilB

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 06:38:25 AM »
Hi Linda,
Sorry to hear you are having such problems and completely agree with the others that his health has to come first and he needs to make it clear that his health won't permit him to work more than standard hours.  If that still doesn't work, then I'd look seriously into the possibility of just getting him signed off with stress.
One final random thought, how much would the 'clown house' rent for?  Could you just rent it out and live in the mountain cabin off the proceeds for a year or two whilst your husband recovers his health and sanity and your FU money stays invested and building itself towards being FI money?

MayDay

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 07:25:16 AM »
The thing is, his boss can accept any projects he wants.

And your H can choose what projects he actually does.

He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home. At the end of each week he can send out a summary email up the chain that says "this week my teacher prioritized xyz. We did not work on ABC. In order to work on xyz and abc, we wiill need an additional 4 team members. Until those people are hired, we will continue to work on xyz unless given different direction."

Then if boss emails "work on all of them", he emails back, cc'ing big bosses, "if we work on all the projects, it will push the completion date out until x date. I will redistribute work to my team members, but please confirm that you understand we will miss xyz deadlines."

He doesn't have to bend over and take it.

SC93

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 07:30:37 AM »
There is always a great thing about working for someone else..... what doesn't get done today will still be there tomorrow.... or the next day.... or next week. He just needs to slow down and when things get done, they get done. Why worry? Do you know what happens if the worst hits and he eventually gets fired? He can sleep late!!! <<< That's what I used to tell every boss of mine.

Both of you are upset about nothing. Settle down, tell your husband to tell them what the thinks and get everything off his chest so he feels 100% better. Let it be known that he can quit at any time and whom ever is above his boss will more than likely make some changes if your husband really is that important to the company. If they fire him, he was probably more important in his mind than in reality. I've seen this more often than not.

Schaefer Light

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 07:39:29 AM »
He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home.

This was going to be my suggestion.  Just get as much done as you can in 40 hours and let the rest wait until next week.

Dave1442397

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 10:16:58 AM »
The thing is, his boss can accept any projects he wants.

And your H can choose what projects he actually does.

He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home. At the end of each week he can send out a summary email up the chain that says "this week my teacher prioritized xyz. We did not work on ABC. In order to work on xyz and abc, we wiill need an additional 4 team members. Until those people are hired, we will continue to work on xyz unless given different direction."

Then if boss emails "work on all of them", he emails back, cc'ing big bosses, "if we work on all the projects, it will push the completion date out until x date. I will redistribute work to my team members, but please confirm that you understand we will miss xyz deadlines."

He doesn't have to bend over and take it.

This is exactly how I would handle it. I've been lucky enough to not run into this situation more than a couple of times, but I always put it back on management - prioritize!


Sibley

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 10:29:19 AM »
The thing is, his boss can accept any projects he wants.

And your H can choose what projects he actually does.

He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home. At the end of each week he can send out a summary email up the chain that says "this week my teacher prioritized xyz. We did not work on ABC. In order to work on xyz and abc, we wiill need an additional 4 team members. Until those people are hired, we will continue to work on xyz unless given different direction."

Then if boss emails "work on all of them", he emails back, cc'ing big bosses, "if we work on all the projects, it will push the completion date out until x date. I will redistribute work to my team members, but please confirm that you understand we will miss xyz deadlines."

He doesn't have to bend over and take it.

This is exactly how I would handle it. I've been lucky enough to not run into this situation more than a couple of times, but I always put it back on management - prioritize!

I just started a new job, and my new manager has commented a few times that this is what she's doing this year, after having workload be very off balance last year. There's some problems with the workload for later in the year. I'm not going to work myself to death because the manager setting the schedule is clueless.

GuitarStv

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 10:46:03 AM »
He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home.

This was going to be my suggestion.  Just get as much done as you can in 40 hours and let the rest wait until next week.

+1

I think that part of the problem is that your husband has simply taken on too much.  Some managers don't listen to what employees say as long as they keep seeing success.

acroy

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2018, 11:14:12 AM »
whew!
Hubby needs to take care of his health first. prioritize that for sure. The company will be fine with or without him. Sounds like you are OK on the money front. That is the point of having FU money, right? No need to stress about work!
Good luck and prayers sent your way!

Laura33

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 01:25:56 PM »
Linda, first, so sorry for this. 

Second, I have experience with bad bosses, and I can tell you that you never make progress by complaining about how bad the boss is -- that sounds like you're whining and forces the bigger boss to decide who is telling the truth, and that decision almost always goes to the person who has the big boss' direct ear.  And unfortunately, it is always the best employees who are the most hurt, because they are the ones willing to go above and beyond to get the job done -- and the bad bosses will take maximum advantage of that willingness for as long as they can.

So you do two things.  First, internally, your DH has to redefine his job as "do the best I can for 40 hrs/week," not "get everything done no matter the cost."  He is being taken advantage of, and the bad boss will continue to do so for as long as your DH lets him get away with it.

Second, instead of attacking with vague, broad claims like how bad a manager your boss is and how you don't have the resources you need, you manage your boss in a way that demonstrates that the problem is his "management" style, not your lack of effort, along the lines of what MayDay suggested.  I.e.:

Every Friday (or Monday first thing), prepare a work plan for the team for the week -- your DH lists his top priorities and identifies the work that can reasonably be done on those priorities in 40 hrs by each available team member.  He then sends this to the bad boss, framed up as his understanding of the tasks/deadlines/priorities, and asks his boss to let him know if the boss would prefer different priorities.  If they discuss this in person, he should follow up with an email laying out the complete schedule. 

Because the boss is lazy, the boss may well ignore this, and your DH is good to go!  But if the boss responds that "everything" needs to be done, then your DH revises the schedule to add some work on the projects your boss wants to include and then pushes the due dates back on everything else.  Rinse, repeat: send it to the boss as his understanding based on their subsequent discussion, and ask him again to let him know if the boss wants any further changes.   

If the boss again responds saying, no, it all needs to get done, the next response is that ok, doing that will require XX more man-hours (if he can break it down by project/task, that would be great), which will require YY more people, and does he have authorization to hire those additional people?  And until he can find those people and bring them onboard, which of the first two options would the boss prefer?  The ultimate point is to always, always provide the boss options -- but all of those options are "things that can be done in 40 hrs/wk." 

As the team is working over the course of the week, if additional work comes in, each new task should be handled by revising the existing schedule to accommodate the new work -- not by adding more hours in the day, but by pushing other work back.  That again goes to the bad boss, and you repeat the process -- this should all be phrased as "here is my plan, please let me know if you would prefer me to handle this in some other way."  Then at the end of the week, he wraps things up with another email summarizing everything that was completed according to the plan.

Of course, the shit is going to hit the fan at some point, because bad boss keeps bringing in more work than they can manage.  But that's ok!  Because when that happens, and the bad boss starts yelling at him about why didn't he do XYZ on project ABC, your DH can just look befuddled and say that he was only working on the priorities and schedule that the bad boss approved (and present the schedule to back it up).

The key here is that he is (1) setting the expectations for himself and his team at a manageable level, (2) demonstrating his own professionalism (calmy focusing on getting the job done and making sure his team's efforts are aligned with corporate priorities), while (3) creating an excellent paper trail of facts that point directly to his boss as the problem here (which is both his own best defense and the necessary first step to getting the bad boss fired -- again, management is not going to fire his boss because someone whines he doesn't have enough resources; but if you have a lovely paper trail showing you executed perfectly on the plan that your boss approved, you are giving the big boss the documentation he needs to fire the bad boss).  That way, if things come to a head, he doesn't need to argue, or get upset, or be emotionally involved at all:  the documents speak for themselves.

netskyblue

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 03:09:38 PM »
the company is not more attractive than the competition, doesn't pay more and doesn't have more interesting projects

So why doesn't he just go to work for the competition?  This company isn't offering him what he wants, and he's not financially dependent on this job to the point where he couldn't keep the lights on if he had to take a pay cut.  He's had his warning - he could LITERALLY die if he can't cut the stress.  Not worth it.

Bicycle_B

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 03:39:57 PM »
Sounds like DH wants to get everything done even though there are too few resources.  But his heart is a finite resource too.  The work won't get done if he has a heart attack.

Boss is not going to stop.  DH can choose between his pride and risking death, which includes his wife living the rest of his life without him.  What is the money for if not to give him freedom?  What percentage of customers would it take to complete full FI plan if he leaves and starts his own business, assuming he preserves his health?  Has anyone asked him which is better, salving his pride or leaving you husband-less after a heart attack?

I don't see how they could fire him if he slows down.  But either he or his body will make the decision.  Best of luck to you both.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 04:17:21 PM by Bicycle_B »

NoraLenderbee

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 03:58:43 PM »
@Laura33gives excellent advice. I will add that the hardest part about this approach is actually living your boundaries. It's one thing to say "I will work X hours and no more." It's quite another thing to actually pack up and leave at the scheduled time, knowing that your desk is piled with work. For a responsible and self-sacrificing person, this can feel like shirking, being irresponsible, letting the team down, and so on, and can generate a tremendous feeling of guilt. DH may need a lot of encouragement and reassurance.

Also remember that unless *he* takes these steps, nothing will change. The bad boss will not change. No amount of explaining to him will change things. *He* has to do it.

Some useful wording:
"I understand new project X is a priority. Which other project do you want me to put aside in order to focus on project X?"
This reminds the boss that DH's time is finite and pushes the responsibility for setting priorites back to the boss.




big_slacker

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 07:13:14 PM »
Handling it the right way. Have 'the talk' with the boss, if not satisfied with the next level. If still not satisfied draft a writeup and send to the VP level the same time as your resignation. FWIW I did this at a workplace and although I was already gone I followed through former co-workers and it initiated sweeping change including the eventual termination of the manager and director causing the issues.

Your husband had a job before this job I assume, he can have one after. Or not in your case. :D

He can't have another life if his heart gives out, and in any case why would you want to deal with being miserable for any length of time when you don't have to.

He is not miserable with the kind of job in general. He likes this kind of work and likes leading other people. It is just the total amount of work that he boss presses his group to accept, that is too much. Also the fact that his boss is hopeless in many ways, like not organizing any strategy meetings ever and focussing on the wrong kind of projects (hard work for little pay). And oversleeping several times a year and being late for meetings at 10AM. And going on a 10!!! week summer vacation without authorizing anyone else to sign bills during that time. Not signing invoices for many weeks, despite reminders. Not creating a team of group leaders to work together on anything at all. Just weekly meeting about whether every group is meeting their goals. DH has the group that makes most profit in the whole company. When DH says during the meeting that it is difficult to cope with the work with the current resource situation, the answer is: I'm sure you can do it! Never any brainstorming/actions about how to improve the situation.

My suggestion is that the first step is telling the company that he is disappointed in how they handled the situation. And what they are intending to do now. Then later threaten with a choice between boss and DH if that doesn't have any effect.

By the way, DH has earlier gotten a direct manager replaced by have a structured meeting with the company, and having support from the rest of the group.

I get it, a good job vs a crappy job could be the same duties but tighter timelines or more work in the queue. This is why one on one meetings with the boss and being clear that he's fine with X, Y and Z being needed but there is only time for 2 so pick which ones are the priority. Whether that meeting is viewed as just normal expectation setting or your husband being lazy depends on the relationship with the manager and the same thing with upper management. I try to always have good working relationships with my managers whether I like them or not. Even a manager that is bad at their job can realize that their 'sergeant' is trying to keep them from stepping on a landmine. :D

If they don't and are truly clueless your husband always has the option of working somewhere else. So projects aren't as exciting, what does that matter? It's better than a f'in heart attack!

Trifle

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2018, 04:43:34 AM »
DH said this morning that he has tried to let his boss prioritize his work, without getting any help from that direction. He also doesn't want to do his boss' job by making a prioritized list himself.

We have now agreed on that he will try for 1-3 months to get his boss replaced. If not, he will go or let himself be fired (with a goodbye package). The company has no negative things to FIRE him on, as he has been delivering very good work all the time. It's just that he cannot cooperate with his boss anymore.

Hey Linda. I'm sorry you and DH are going through this.  MayDay, Laura33, and others have given some great advice above. I'll just add one comment to your statement above.  DH making a prioritized list each week isn't doing Boss's job . . .  it's a strategy to set expectations and create a professional paper trail that can be shown to Bigger Bosses.  It could give him exactly the ammunition he needs if his goal is to replace Boss.

Good luck to you both!! 

former player

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2018, 05:18:27 AM »
DH said this morning that he has tried to let his boss prioritize his work, without getting any help from that direction. He also doesn't want to do his boss' job by making a prioritized list himself.

We have now agreed on that he will try for 1-3 months to get his boss replaced. If not, he will go or let himself be fired (with a goodbye package). The company has no negative things to FIRE him on, as he has been delivering very good work all the time. It's just that he cannot cooperate with his boss anymore.

Hey Linda. I'm sorry you and DH are going through this.  MayDay, Laura33, and others have given some great advice above. I'll just add one comment to your statement above.  DH making a prioritized list each week isn't doing Boss's job . . .  it's a strategy to set expectations and create a professional paper trail that can be shown to Bigger Bosses.  It could give him exactly the ammunition he needs if his goal is to replace Boss.

Good luck to you both!!
I agree with Trifele.  In an ideal world, DH would be right that the prioritised list is bad Boss's job.  DH has apparently still not internalised that he is not working in an ideal world, he is working in a world in which bad Boss has been throwing him under the bus for years.  In that situation, DH isn't doing bad Boss' job by making a list, he is putting in place essential defences against bad Boss.

I hope that you will ensure that DH limits his working hours to 40.  Don't let him work late in the evening: phone him at the end of the normal working day to get him to come home if need be.  Don't let him bring work home or work on the weekends. 

As to the time DH is at work, every Monday morning he needs to send bad Boss, copied to bad Boss's manager, a list headed "projects on which no progress will be made this week because of lack of resources".  As he is conscientious, he may wish to suggest that bad Boss or bad Boss' manager should perhaps contact the clients to keep them updated on the lack of progress.  And then DH should forget about what he is not doing and each week just take on and complete the reasonable amount of work which he has planned for him and his team.

Dave1442397

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2018, 05:48:35 AM »
If his manager can't prioritize, it sounds like your husband is easily capable of making his own list of projects and prioritizing things. I would make a list of all projects in progress, arranged in the order that they will be worked on. Send that to the manager with a note that says "This is my list of projects for the week/month/quarter, and the order in which I plan to work on them. If you wish to make any changes, please let me know asap", or words to that effect.

Laura33

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2018, 11:53:50 AM »
DH said this morning that he has tried to let his boss prioritize his work, without getting any help from that direction. He also doesn't want to do his boss' job by making a prioritized list himself.

We have now agreed on that he will try for 1-3 months to get his boss replaced. If not, he will go or let himself be fired (with a goodbye package). The company has no negative things to FIRE him on, as he has been delivering very good work all the time. It's just that he cannot cooperate with his boss anymore.

Hey Linda. I'm sorry you and DH are going through this.  MayDay, Laura33, and others have given some great advice above. I'll just add one comment to your statement above.  DH making a prioritized list each week isn't doing Boss's job . . .  it's a strategy to set expectations and create a professional paper trail that can be shown to Bigger Bosses.  It could give him exactly the ammunition he needs if his goal is to replace Boss.

Good luck to you both!!

+1.  This is not "doing the boss' job."  This is "CYA 101" and "how to get the bad boss fired."  Refusing to do this because you shouldn't have to is called "cutting off your nose to spite your face" -- because 9 times out of 10, you're the one who bears the blame when things go wrong if you can't affirmatively prove that the other guy did it.

More broadly, "managing up" is a critical business skill.  Even when you have a great, proactive boss, you want to make sure that the boss knows what you are working on and that you are meeting the boss' expectations -- that is part of your job.  And the best way to do that is exactly what we have talked about here -- regular emails saying this is what I am working on, and then periodic updates to demonstrate that you met the schedule. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 11:55:31 AM by Laura33 »

trollwithamustache

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2018, 12:08:19 PM »

Every Friday (or Monday first thing), prepare a work plan for the team for the week -- your DH lists his top priorities and identifies the work that can reasonably be done on those priorities in 40 hrs by each available team member.  He then sends this to the bad boss, framed up as his understanding of the tasks/deadlines/priorities, and asks his boss to let him know if the boss would prefer different priorities.  If they discuss this in person, he should follow up with an email laying out the complete schedule. 



This is outstanding advice. I would add that the work list should always have below it the total work list/backlog list... A lot of disorganized companies end up with multiple lists. one of my client bosses has a compliance projects list, a safety projects list, a special maintenance items list, and a general capital projects list. But his company never looks at all 4 together since they are in different databases so its hard for him to explain why he is always behind.

The Work list also helps one take pride in what one got done and what extra got done, even if the backlog remains.

NevermindScrooge

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2018, 03:26:51 PM »
Hi Linda,

So sorry to hear about these troubles. I have no advice or insights to add, the good people of the internet have provided some really good stuff! (I'm taking notes, seriously).
I just wanted to sent some internet-support as I know how these kind of issues can eat away your happiness and self-esteem. The way I read it, your husband really cares about his work, and to be able to cope with Crappy Boss he would have to care less. But your husband doesn't want to change in a less-caring person! HE (Crappy Boss) should change! It's horribly unfair and now your husband has to do things that don't fit his personality (i.e. assembling a paper trail to get Crappy Boss fired). And when you're already in a sub-optimal state healthwise, this is extra difficult.
I would love to help, but all I can do is point to the other guys who said all the smart things: ^^ "what they said". It will be hard and it will be less-than-fun, but the way I see it it's probably for the best. Try to be as ice-cold and professional as possible, these things take time for management to 1) acknowledge that there might be a tiny bit of an issue; 2) find out that it's one of them that is the issue; 3) realize that this tiny issue could have consequences that will touch them; 4) realize that there is a paper trail so they can't deny it; 5) find someone else to blame; 6) realize that they actually have to do something; 7) delegate the 'doing of something' to someone else (and probably blame them as well). It's not how the world should be, but unfortunately this is how it works (in a lot of cases).

Am I cynical? Can't be, I'm way too young, right? Guys?

Anyway, hopefully this will all end quickly and smoothly, would you mind sending updates? Best of luck!

Astatine

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2018, 10:07:28 PM »
Just found this thread. Good luck! I hope your DH gets the best possible outcome, and that his stress goes down. Health is important.

dandarc

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2018, 11:39:07 AM »
I'd suggest "Here's my resignation" as the next communication with boss.  But then I'm nearly to "quit without another job lined up" territory myself, so I may be projecting my general displeasure with my own work situation onto your husband.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2018, 03:43:38 PM »
I'd suggest "Here's my resignation" as the next communication with boss.  But then I'm nearly to "quit without another job lined up" territory myself, so I may be projecting my general displeasure with my own work situation onto your husband.

That is what I asked, whether he was willing to pull the door behind him tomorrow. It would be an unmustachian decision. But he is willing to make it a choice to the boss above: DH or boss.
If DH's boss is not accepting responsibility for setting DH's priorities, then DH needs to be more forceful, and give Boss a clear choice.  I.e.

DH: "We have 50 projects.  Here is how much work is required for each.  Which would you like us to work on first?"
Boss: "Um, do them all."
DH: "I can only work on one project at a time.  Which do you want completed first?"
Boss: "We'll hire more people, so don't worry about it."
DH:  "It takes time to find, hire, and train new people.  In the meantime, which project do you want first?"

Just keep asking the question until you get an answer.  I had a similar situation a few years ago.  I have two bosses (it's a partnership), and there are times when they both have given me high-priority work at the same time.  I called them together and asked them to work out between the two of them which was the higher priority.

Boss apparently doesn't recognize that his employees are a finite resource, and hasn't (yet) experienced the negative consequences of poorly managing that resource, nor has he been challenged strongly enough to recognize that he actually needs to make decisions as a manager.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 03:18:42 PM »
Good for him. Please let us know how the meeting with HR Lady goes.

Astatine

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2018, 10:11:48 PM »
I'm sorry to hear he didn't get the answer he wanted. I hope the long term outcome is good for the both of you.

Mustache ride

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 06:46:55 AM »
HR works for the company, not the workers. Their job is to limit the company's liability and exposure. It would be foolish to rely on someone who's job is in direct conflict with what you're trying to accomplish.

Trifle

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 07:24:59 AM »
HR works for the company, not the workers. Their job is to limit the company's liability and exposure. It would be foolish to rely on someone who's job is in direct conflict with what you're trying to accomplish.

It was not unexpected. We have experienced HR people before and are very aware that HR is a part of the company management. But the lady behaved in such an sympathetic way in the beginning, telling that the company had failed DH, that she gave the impression of being alright. Obviously now she is back online with the rest of the management backing up the company.

What I don't understand is that they/she are not afraid of DH quitting his job, or don't realize that he really is very close to quitting. DH thinks they might have gotten the impression that he is anxious to keep his job, as he is trying so hard to improve things. It would be very hard for them to replace DH and the company would have a problem. And I really don't understand why they let the direct boss stay in his function, not doing much work at all. That man is not beneficial for the company to keep.

I bet that's it Linda -- they probably do not appreciate that he is close to walking out the door.  So sorry you both are going through this.  These situations are tough, but hopefully you'll be in a better place soon. 

zolotiyeruki

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2018, 08:00:41 AM »
So...are they calling his bluff?  Then it may be time to lay the cards on the table.

Tuskalusa

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2018, 08:22:48 AM »
Agree that it’s time to call their bluff and give notice.

One of the greatest benefits of Mustacian life is that you have the power to walk away. In this case, I think it’s time to use that power. The company will either recognize that DH is serious and make changes, or DH will be free to leave and find a new opportunity. Either way, you will be fine.

former player

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2018, 08:43:15 AM »
Sorry about DH's experience with HR, but yes, HR work for "the man".

And I really don't understand why they let the direct boss stay in his function, not doing much work at all. That man is not beneficial for the company to keep.

In my experience the reason these useless types are allowed to hang around is that they spend all their time and effort in "managing upwards": that is, they angle everything they do to looking good to management and telling management what they want to hear.   If this is true of DH's boss, then it probably means that you are right: they have no idea how close DH is to walking out of the door, or how much money they would lose (through lost and uncompleted projects) if he did.

Does DH have a trades union?  I'm guessing not and that you would have mentioned it before if he did.

DH might think about writing a memo to Big Boss saying "1) Thanks for the meeting, 2) We agreed useless boss is to be taken off this work as he has failed to contribute value or manage the understaffing in an appropriate manner, 3) Unfortunately the long-term understaffing of this work, combined with my absence due to serious illness and useless boss's failure to manage matters in my absence has left us in an untenable position.  Routine workloads require 4 staff when we only have three, and there is a backlog of 15 projects which can only get worse as long as the understaffing continues, 4) My health does not permit me to take on more than a usual workload for the hours I work.  5)  While I appreciate that the move to a different department is intended to improve matters, it does not resolve the problem that we are understaffed and it does not provide any means for dealing with the backlog of work which has built up.  6)  The medical advice that I have received is that without significant changes to staffing or workload it would be preferable for me to manage my workloads by taking on an appropriate workload as a consultant to the company.  7)  I would be happy to discuss this with you further, and hope that you will be able to find time to schedule a meeting to discuss this in the very near future."

DH's health problems don't sound good.  It would be better to have him a healthy bicycle repair man than an unhealthy or (worst case) dead workplace drone.

plainjane

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2018, 09:02:40 AM »
I'd suggest "Here's my resignation" as the next communication with boss.  But then I'm nearly to "quit without another job lined up" territory myself, so I may be projecting my general displeasure with my own work situation onto your husband.
That is what I asked, whether he was willing to pull the door behind him tomorrow. It would be an unmustachian decision. But he is willing to make it a choice to the boss above: DH or boss.

I'm sorry this has been such a tough slog. But I'm going to call this out - I would say walking away from this situation is _completely_ a mustachian decision. If it means going to a competitor where there is less people management and it slightly lengthens the time before you FIRE, that is better than him getting sicker, burning out.

I'd push back on your bicycle repair man comment too - a small wage for a year or two to recover might be much better for you the two of you in the long term if you are able to live on just your salary and let the stash grow in the meantime.

wageslave23

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2018, 09:38:38 AM »
I would suggest at this point just putting in the bare minimum of work, 9-5.  Have him watch Office Space for an example.  In the meantime start looking at other jobs/opportunities.  He owes nothing to the company and they owe nothing to him, don't let it become personal.  Have him figure out how much they are paying him and the stress he has to deal with and then provide what he believes is a fair amount of work in return.  There is no point in quitting, at the extreme - do no work and wait for them to fire you. 

big_owl

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2018, 09:52:06 AM »
In my experience the path that DH has taken never really works out very well for the person taking that path.  Unless you're a real visionary like Steve Jobs or someone with out of this world contacts like Jamie Dimon, you're generally much more easily replaced than you imagine you are.  And fighting city hall generally involves you being miserable, getting fired, or resigning.  The HR lady was just trying to avoid conflict when she supported him in private.  Of course she's not going to take his side when facing boss and big boss and her own job and reputation are on the line.  He would have been best to have taken Laura33's advice and managed his manager more proactively.  Or if he was ready to FI anyway, even better (read: easier) would be just to do a normal 40 hour week like was recommended multiple time - Apathy.  Have fun at work and don't take it so seriously.  Do a good job on the work you do, but only do what can be done in a normal day's time and don't stress over it.  I bet he could have gotten by for years this way without any serious issues like getting fired. 

My personal observation based on what I've read is that he's poisoned the well by this time and it's probably folly to expect the company to make any serious changes to support him.  If it were me and the steps he's taken weren't already widely known outside of big boss (unlikely), I'd probably shut my mouth and go back to Laura33's advice or the apathy route, or more likely some combination of the both.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 10:23:19 AM »
I agree bith big_owl and Laura33.  DH needs to remember that the success of the business is not his job.  His job is to do his work as well as he can, within normal working hours.  If that means that some projects languish, that's not his problem.  It's management's problem.  DH needs to simply learn to not care.  This will probably mean that his work output will decrease.  He needs to be ok with this.  If his boss or his boss's boss complains, DH should state the facts: "This is what I can do without negatively affecting my health."  If they back off, great!  If they fire him, that's not great, but then they have to find a way to fill that workload.  Either way, put in the required time, do your best work, enjoy it, and ignore the incompetence around you!

nick663

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2018, 01:21:47 PM »
The thing is, his boss can accept any projects he wants.

And your H can choose what projects he actually does.

He doesn't have to quit. He can just put in 40 hours and go home. At the end of each week he can send out a summary email up the chain that says "this week my teacher prioritized xyz. We did not work on ABC. In order to work on xyz and abc, we wiill need an additional 4 team members. Until those people are hired, we will continue to work on xyz unless given different direction."

Then if boss emails "work on all of them", he emails back, cc'ing big bosses, "if we work on all the projects, it will push the completion date out until x date. I will redistribute work to my team members, but please confirm that you understand we will miss xyz deadlines."

He doesn't have to bend over and take it.
I don't like the tone in the bolded portion of this email.  It's combative and turns the attention onto the person sending it.  It could result in people getting the perception that the problem is not the workload but the "bad attitude" of a team member.

Companies look to take the easiest route possible to resolve a problem and 9 times out of 10 that means axing the "trouble maker" instead of fixing issues higher up the food chain.

In my experience the path that DH has taken never really works out very well for the person taking that path.  Unless you're a real visionary like Steve Jobs or someone with out of this world contacts like Jamie Dimon, you're generally much more easily replaced than you imagine you are.  And fighting city hall generally involves you being miserable, getting fired, or resigning.  The HR lady was just trying to avoid conflict when she supported him in private.  Of course she's not going to take his side when facing boss and big boss and her own job and reputation are on the line.  He would have been best to have taken Laura33's advice and managed his manager more proactively.  Or if he was ready to FI anyway, even better (read: easier) would be just to do a normal 40 hour week like was recommended multiple time - Apathy.  Have fun at work and don't take it so seriously.  Do a good job on the work you do, but only do what can be done in a normal day's time and don't stress over it.  I bet he could have gotten by for years this way without any serious issues like getting fired. 

My personal observation based on what I've read is that he's poisoned the well by this time and it's probably folly to expect the company to make any serious changes to support him.  If it were me and the steps he's taken weren't already widely known outside of big boss (unlikely), I'd probably shut my mouth and go back to Laura33's advice or the apathy route, or more likely some combination of the both.
This is the same route I'd take. 
1.  Stop trying to fix something that upper management thinks isn't an issue.  He raised a concern and now that he has pushback he should stop.
2.  Continue to put in enough hours that he is getting a reasonable amount of work done.  Bare minimum to keep from getting his walking papers (although you keep mentioning severance which we don't get in the US if you are fired due to documented poor performance).
3.  If DH is unhappy still, start look for a new employer (or FIRE).

DH will be proven right eventually but sometimes you have to let management types discover these issues on their own.

Bicycle_B

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2018, 06:43:54 PM »
Maybe DH will edge closer to the apathy path as time goes on.  Certainly it sounds like he can control his departure date that way.  Good luck!

partgypsy

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2018, 01:38:59 PM »
HR works for the company, not the workers. Their job is to limit the company's liability and exposure. It would be foolish to rely on someone who's job is in direct conflict with what you're trying to accomplish.



It was not unexpected. We have experienced HR people before and are very aware that HR is a part of the company management. But the lady behaved in such an sympathetic way in the beginning, telling that the company had failed DH, that she gave the impression of being alright. Obviously now she is back online with the rest of the management backing up the company.

What I don't understand is that they/she are not afraid of DH quitting his job, or don't realize that he really is very close to quitting. DH thinks they might have gotten the impression that he is anxious to keep his job, as he is trying so hard to improve things. It would be very hard for them to replace DH and the company would have a problem. And I really don't understand why they let the direct boss stay in his function, not doing much work at all. That man is not beneficial for the company to keep.

I bet that's it Linda -- they probably do not appreciate that he is close to walking out the door.  So sorry you both are going through this.  These situations are tough, but hopefully you'll be in a better place soon.

ETA - congratulations on the new turn of events. There is positive stress and negative stress, and though it sounds exciting, hopefully he preserves his health through the transition.

It sounds like his boss, and possibly HR truly are clueless how bad things are. If so, they will only realize/react when the sh*t hits the fan. Many moons ago I had a boss who was first good (professional, highly productive) who then morphed into a terrible boss (micromanaging, felt you weren't allowed a personal life, gave no credit). To make a long story short, after much harassment, fired me in a fit of pique. She then realized she kind of screwed herself (because of the huge workload I was doing that couldn't easily be delegated) and quickly said to stay to stay to end of week. But I couldn't take emotional browbeating anymore. After I left, heard through the grapevine, crap did hit the fan, they lost a multi-million dollar grant, and the lab ended up closing. Don't count on the lack of stupidity of others.     
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 01:43:20 PM by partgypsy »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2018, 02:03:13 PM »
Just a note of caution.  I've not been in the workforce terribly long (13 years), but I've learned to never count on information given verbally.  I've been promised interesting assignments...that eventually went to others.  I've been promised raises that have never materialized.  There's a company that have said they really want to hire me in a couple months.  I'm not holding my breath, and neither should you, until it actually happens.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 05:45:57 AM »
I think most people on this site have a grit your teeth attitude when you have FU money and are approaching FI because the pain of getting to FI ASAP is assumed paid back by reaching FI a bit faster by making the assumed more money now then trying to go back in the future.

I don't think that attitude is appropriate when you mix in a dangerous health condition.  Gritting teeth is not the option here (one can recover in FI from an extra year of even soul crushing work, you wont always recover from a heart attack).   Demand a better situation and if that isnt accepted (and actually happen) then walk.  Maybe he'll find a better job later after some time off, maybe investments will do well and you reach FI while off (SWR 6% works half the time....if it doesnt this time its not something that happens immediately, you;ll see its not working and can go back to work years from now after health recovers and some of those mustachian payoffs are already enjoyed...)

Laura33

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2018, 07:34:12 AM »
Linda -- good luck to him (and you)!  I'm sure he feels better knowing that he has multiple viable options out there -- nothing worse than feeling stuck in a horrible spot.

Trifle

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2018, 07:44:36 AM »
Sounds like things are moving, Linda, which can only be a good thing.  Good luck to both of you!

NevermindScrooge

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2018, 12:59:10 PM »

In case plan A (Swedish plan becoming world leader company) doesn't work out, DH is already mentally preparing plan B (getting fired with a nice package and start own consultancy gig with a goal of working on average 75%). Plan C is working for the competition, but at the moment plan B is way more attractive to DH. I fully support him in plan B and C.

What a story! A soap opera writer couldn’t have made this up!
But, er, if I may be so rude... you’re not exactly over the moon about option A? May I ask why?

Bicycle_B

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2018, 01:37:35 PM »
Very glad DH is making decisions, communicating with people, moving forward with a plan.  +1 to it's good that he sees options now!  I hope his health improves from all of this.  Best wishes to both of you.

chrisgermany

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2018, 10:54:00 AM »
Sending good wishes.
DHs health has improved since retirement, even though he started with 2 spinal surgeries. But now he has time to work out regularly.
Once the bare necessities are covered no job is worth your health.
I doubt that the current employer will turn around fast enough to wait it out.
Good luck!

mbl

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2018, 06:59:42 AM »

Heart flimmers. DH has been investigated by the hospital and it has nothing to do with heart attack. He is very healthy otherwise. Has always been extremely sportive. But now, if he gets a higher puls, his heart can suddenly go up 30 to 50 beats per minute extra. Often it disappers after some minutes when he stops, sometimes it doesn't for a long time and then he really feels lousy. It is an issue that certain things in the heart region respond wrongly and make a chamber pull together too often. The last two weekend it already happens with very moderate puls, which is something we get very often when doing something active in the weekend. DH has been assigned an appointment with a specialist in september. Obviously his issue is not prioritized as life threatening. But he will try to find a solution through his private health insurance to get an appointed sooner, maybe in Denmark or so.

Is it Afib?
"Atrial fibrillation is a fast, irregular heart rhythm involving the upper heart chambers. It is the most common abnormal heart rhythm in adults. It will affect approximately 10 percent of people over 80. In people that have other heart diseases, such as heart failure, atrial fibrillation can develop in about half of them."

He has to wait until September to be seen by what, a cardiologist?  6 months from now?  Really?  Why does it take so long?

Livingthedream55

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2018, 07:35:56 AM »
Keeping you and your husband in our thoughts!!!

partgypsy

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Re: DH has a work issue...
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2018, 08:59:23 AM »
Best wishes for good outcomes on the surgery. It is good it is something correctable.