Author Topic: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss  (Read 6099 times)

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« on: April 30, 2021, 09:12:45 AM »
So my teeth have always been a point of pride and I am very regular about cleanings. For many years I paid cash for a dentist. Last few I have had insurance (which I don't recommend). My main criterion is just that I get a thorough cleaning. Unfortunately, 9 months had passed due to pandemic between my previous cleaning and the one I got yesterday. There was a new hygienist and new dentist at the office. They took full x-rays (which I tend to avoid) and the results were really "bad news": Extensive bone loss.

I'm in excellent health, don't drink/smoke/take any meds. I have no symptoms, no loose teeth, just a lot of plaque/tartar build up and maybe some brushing technique that could be better (tendency to scrub hard). I have brushed 2-3 times a day with baking soda and floss at least 2x a day for decades. The dentist literally said "have you neglected your teeth for many years?" Normally, dentists compliment me on my teeth. They showed me on the x-ray that I have irreversible bone loss between my teeth. I asked, is this simply due to my age (I reminded them I am 51, since sometimes people think I'm younger)? Nope, according to them.

"You probably won't lose your teeth," they said, but no advice as to what to do, mainly that it was too late. I do have a vague memory of 5+ years ago a different hygienist at a different practice saying I had bone loss and should go see a specialist. But I tend to think there's a lot of scamming in dentistry so I didn't do anything about it. I have also noticed more gum recession recently, which I attributed (apparently incorrectly) to age.

After some googling last night I bought an oral probiotic lozenge and may look into some rinses with ingredients like xylitol, fluoride, baking soda, etc.

My SO has lifelong bad dental problems (opposite of me) and I plan on sharing the probiotic with him (I read a number of medical studies on probiotics for dental bone loss/disease -- doesn't seem like a cure-all, but could have a moderate positive effect).

Should I get a 2nd opinion? Ask for my x-rays and have another dentist/specialist tell me if all is lost?

afox

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2021, 09:49:25 AM »
Sorry, that must be incredibly difficult to hear/deal with.

No idea if it has anything to do with your bone loss but why brush with baking soda and not a flouride toothpaste?

englishteacheralex

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3892
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Honolulu, HI
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2021, 09:54:17 AM »
Get a second opinion, and then maybe a third. I don't trust dentists. Fifteen years ago one told me that I would lose my front tooth due to a chip, and tried to schedule me in for a tooth transplant. I thought he was crazy and never went back. My front tooth is fine. I can't tell you how many times various dentists have told me to get fillings replaced. Sometimes I do, mostly I don't. My teeth are fine. No pain.


Systems101

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 218
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2021, 09:59:58 AM »
Should I get a 2nd opinion? Ask for my x-rays and have another dentist/specialist tell me if all is lost?

I definitely would.  I've been through 5 dentists since adulthood - two retired, two I moved away from.  In BOTH retirement cases the young dentists who bought the practice fired all the hygenists and my first appointment with the new staff was always a bucket list of problems - thousands of dollars worth of suggested work, some of it quite invasive.  In BOTH cases, second opinions were "everything is fine".

In one case, the place cratered, going to 3 day weeks soon after the transition due to lack of patients.  I didn't look for a replacement as I moved soon after, so next appointment was in another state.  New dentist said teeth were in good shape, and even laughed that I have teeth with sealant still on them (from multiple decades ago) - one of the previous criticisms was that the sealants were a problem and should be removed.  In the interim (>5 years) I've had a single cavity (not related to the sealants).  Meh, it happens.


Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7428
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2021, 10:00:55 AM »
Second opinion for sure.

RedmondStash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1114
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2021, 10:06:00 AM »
Seconding the second opinion.

But the bone loss is likely real, especially if this isn't the first time someone has mentioned it.

Neither is bone loss the end of the world. Bone resorption can happen in teeth for mysterious reasons, including physical trauma in childhood. It may take some specialist care to stabilize the teeth or replace with implants, and that will be $$, but you can still have functional teeth. Apparently implants have evolved a lot in the last several years.

So, yeah, it's a bummer. But it's manageable.

Nutty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 226
  • Location: Texas
  • Late but haven't missed the train.
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2021, 10:06:37 AM »
Is it causing pain? 

I still have my wisdom teeth after several dentists suggest I have them ripped out of my head because they will cause problems.  50 years old and unless I get a popcorn husk trapped, no problems.  No pain.

What did they suggest you do differently to prevent additional bone loss? 

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3791
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2021, 10:06:41 AM »
I'd definitely get a second opinion.   One of the reasons I really trust our dentist is that they note my deteriorating/cracked old fillings at every annual x ray, and note that I should consider getting them replaced and/or crowned 'at some point', but they never push me on it.  I've been getting them done at a rate of one replacement every few years, paid in cash (not cheap), and they always offer me a payment plan, etc. , but they never push me with any sense of urgency when they mention it.

Since your dentist didn't offer treatment, that (unfortunately) makes it more likely they are just alerting you for possible future issues.  This is exactly why I am happy they x ray me once a year...heading off trouble. But I'd certainly get a second opinion to see if anyone offers advice on how to best care for your teeth if this is a real problem.



wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3791
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 10:07:57 AM »
Is it causing pain? 

I still have my wisdom teeth after several dentists suggest I have them ripped out of my head because they will cause problems.  50 years old and unless I get a popcorn husk trapped, no problems.  No pain.

What did they suggest you do differently to prevent additional bone loss?

Yes, my dentist's 'leave the wisdom teeth alone unless they are causing problems' approach is another reason I trust them.

Jenny Wren

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 10:08:41 AM »
I have the same thing, diagnosed in 2016 by one (scammy) dentist, confirmed by another trustworthy dentist, and having moved across state, confirmed by yet a third. I also had similar dental history - always brushed/flossed, never had a cavity, teeth looked perfect, and I kept up with cleanings until I didn't (I went several years without one due to life/laziness/cost).

It's not the end of the world. I am supposedly in no danger of tooth loss either, unless it progresses due to lack of care. I go in for a cleaning twice a year now, as opposed to my old habit of once every year or so. I do a deep "periodontal" cleaning every two years, which takes two, one hour long appointments to complete but gets all that plaque below the gum line better. My main problem spot is my lower front teeth, which according to my old dentist is likely due to a childhood surgery that damaged the saliva glands under my tongue and lead to increased saliva production.

At first I was doing the deep cleanings every 6 months, which sucked. I switched to an electric toothbrush and a probiotic fluoride toothpaste, and switched to flossing twice daily instead of once daily. Might be unrelated to the daily hygiene changes, but I'm fine now on the current cleaning schedule and there has been no further bone loss since I was first diagnosed.

I'd get a second opinion, but it doesn't sound like they are trying to scam you. The first dentist that diagnosed me was trying to scam - told me I'd lose all my teeth over the next five years and that I may want to consider going the pull now and getting implants route while I still had some bone. That was terrifying to hear, which is why I sought a second opinion. The bone loss was real, the prognosis and the treatment prescribed wasn't. It doesn't sound like this dentist is trying to upsell you anything by using fear, and there really isn't anything you can do other than increased hygiene and frequent professional cleanings to minimize plaque buildup. The goal is simply to slow or stop the loss.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2021, 10:33:38 AM »
Thanks everyone! I've always liked how baking soda makes my teeth feel. I get the fluoride treatment at the dentist, but am considering a rinse now. They didn't suggest deep cleanings or anything, because when I asked if I needed gum surgery or planing they said it was too late. But they did do a very thorough cleaning. I will get a 2nd opinion or more, and change a few habits, and also use my magical mystical mental powers and see if the next time there is improvement!

Rosy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2742
  • Location: Florida
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2021, 10:49:30 AM »
Options - see a specialist, maybe even two specialists. This isn't a mystery illness. The x-rays tell the story loud and clear.
It isn't like once your bone is lost you can take a pill to make it grow back again.

Hopefully, there are options and supplements to strengthen and maintain the bone structure you still have.

From my own experience, I can tell you that there are immune disorders that can cause severe dental problems - like Sjogrens. It can and it did, it destroyed my teeth but luckily I had enough good bone structure to get implants. Teeth infections are painful and can be deadly - I am so glad all that pain and misery is gone - yet it went undetected for years.

X-rays only tell you what damage you already have but X-rays cannot identify the real cause.
Regular dentists sometimes categorically condemn you for not taking care of your teeth when in reality you have an undiagnosed illness that caused the trouble.

My suggestion would be to talk with a good primary care doctor and have him test for possibilities - delve into the possible causes, whether it is an immune disorder or simply a lack of something in your system that is easily rectified.
This could be a wake-up call for a hovering illness or just poor genes.
You only get one body - treat it well and insist on getting the best care and the best doctors available.

I will say this to all the extreme MMMrs who distrust their doctors and would rather save money at all costs - just don't!
Teeth and eyes are so important yet there are plenty of people who do not get a routine annual exam. Then they are surprised to find out things went south.
WTH do you think a dentist can see without an X-ray?

This isn't even pennies saved because the price you pay for ignoring simply isn't worth it. Dentures are outrageous and the good dentists with good in-house labs charge plenty. Never mind that if the bone loss is really bad you can't even get implants.

My mother was right - once you hit 50, find a good primary care doctor that you like and can discuss anything with freely - one that listens.
Then get your routine exams - there is a reason they have saved lives and most insurers cover them anyway.
Just my two cents...

PJC74

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2021, 11:48:56 AM »
Do you drink a lot of carbonated beverages? Excessive carbonation can cause bone density issues.

Your body quells the carbonation with calcium, which it leeches from your bones.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2021, 11:57:35 AM »
Nope, and I asked if this had anything to do with osteoporosis and they said no it's just your mouth health. So dental bone loss in your mouth is due to those bad bacteria going to town deep under your gums. Of course you can also have osteoporosis separately but I've hit the ground pretty hard in recent years on my bike, no problem.

MrThatsDifferent

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2317
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2021, 12:45:45 PM »
Yes, definitely get a second opinion. I wouldn’t freak out though, especially if the dentist is saying that there’s nothing that can done and not to worry. I’ve seen people comment about scammy dentists and sure, that’s a thing like any profession. However, often the opposite is true and dentists under-report and share bad news with patients because most don’t take it well and don’t look after their teeth well at all. 

You’ve gone through your cleaning routine, which seems very extensive. That’s great. Flossing is one of the key exercises, especially after every time you eat. You need to remove food from between teeth. They also have those little brushes that clean between teeth, try those.

And no, your SO didn’t transfer anything to you. It’s not good to look for sources to blame. Confirm what’s happening and confirm if anything needs to be done. If a second dentist says don’t panic, don’t. If the dentist suggests a treatment plan, then you can either follow that or get a third dentist to confirm. Yes, it’s a little bit of memory, but considering your anxiety over this, it’ll be worth it.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2021, 12:50:41 PM »
Oh cool, reassuring points -- you sound like you may be a dentist? The idea of bacteria coming from a SO wasn't my idea, it came from a dental website. As they always say, the first step in healing is to assign blame. 😂

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2021, 12:51:16 PM »
Do you drink a lot of carbonated beverages? Excessive carbonation can cause bone density issues.

Your body quells the carbonation with calcium, which it leeches from your bones.

Do you have a source for that? I've not heard of this before, and Harvard seems to disagree.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2021, 12:58:33 PM »
Crazy hippie advice: make sure you are getting enough vitamin D either through sunlight or supplements. Your MD can also order lab work to see your actual levels. Also, add a K2 supplement. It doesn't matter how much calcium is in your diet if you don't have enough vitamin D and K to make bone.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.

Mr. Green

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4494
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2021, 01:41:58 PM »
My dentist highly recommends the use of a waterpik over flossing. She says bone loss occurs because bacteria get under the gum line and sit on top of the bone, causing it to erode over time. It's apparently very hard to get at all this bacteria with flossing alone. I've been told about a waterpik before but this time I decided to get one. I'm glad I use it now. Its not really a hassle. I got a cordless one with a little reservoir that you refill. Takes no more time than flossing and I guarantee you won't have anything left in your gum line when done. The water is very high pressure. They even give you a "beginner" pik that lowers the pressure until your gums are used to it.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2021, 01:48:22 PM »
Awesome Waterpik recommendation, thx! As for the hippy stuff, @PDXTabs, I also see some research saying fish oil is good for gum health. In general not a supplements person, and I am good for vitamin D and calcium.

Loretta

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 800
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2021, 02:16:36 PM »
Thanks everyone! I've always liked how baking soda makes my teeth feel. I get the fluoride treatment at the dentist, but am considering a rinse now. They didn't suggest deep cleanings or anything, because when I asked if I needed gum surgery or planing they said it was too late. But they did do a very thorough cleaning. I will get a 2nd opinion or more, and change a few habits, and also use my magical mystical mental powers and see if the next time there is improvement!

*I am not a doctor* but as a child I used baking soda to brush my teeth (my mom had been diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes and as such we all stopped using commercial toothpaste and started only using baking soda, to avoid the sweetness of toothpaste in the early 1980s).  I had major dental work done starting at age 18-22, and I foresee more in the future when the work breaks at some point in the future.  I have also been told I'm losing bone at 43, and gum tissue with age as well.  Nothing can regrow either issue. 

I mostly buy toothpaste when I visit my local H Mart Asian grocery, it's not overpoweringly strong and makes my teeth feel clean.  Ingredients are mostly bamboo/salt.  I also use an Ayurvedic toothpaste.   My insurance company GEHA offers a deal on a fancy electric toothbrush from CariPro, and it feels good.  When I have a cleaning appointment coming up, I use a Colgate product with stannous fluoride in advance to deaden my sensitivity a bit. 

friedmmj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
  • Age: 57
  • Location: USA
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2021, 02:58:07 PM »
In addition to switching to a fluoride toothpaste and flossing, I recommend a mouth rinse daily with Listerine Antiseptic mouthwash (I like the Cool Mist flavor not too intense).


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2021, 03:37:08 PM »
Is it causing pain? 

I still have my wisdom teeth after several dentists suggest I have them ripped out of my head because they will cause problems.  50 years old and unless I get a popcorn husk trapped, no problems.  No pain.

What did they suggest you do differently to prevent additional bone loss?

Periodontitis aka irreversible bone loss doesn't cause pain.

OP: if they aren't recommending extremely expensive treatment, then they aren't trying to scam you.

Don't bother getting a second opinion, just get a referral to a periodontist who may actually be able to help you and give you recommendations as to how to keep your teeth from literally falling out, which is exactly what happens eventually, and is the reason that very few seniors have all of their teeth.

No, it's not a normal part of aging. Yes, there are many factors involved, primarily genetic, but also clenching and grinding make this much, much worse.

Act on it quickly, don't fuck around with paying more general dentists for advice on a problem that they don't have many options to help you with, and about which many don't even have great knowledge.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2021, 03:38:38 PM »
Do you drink a lot of carbonated beverages? Excessive carbonation can cause bone density issues.

Your body quells the carbonation with calcium, which it leeches from your bones.

Do you have a source for that? I've not heard of this before, and Harvard seems to disagree.

Also periodontal bone loss had nothing to do with bone density.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2021, 03:42:43 PM »
Yes, definitely get a second opinion. I wouldn’t freak out though, especially if the dentist is saying that there’s nothing that can done and not to worry. I’ve seen people comment about scammy dentists and sure, that’s a thing like any profession. However, often the opposite is true and dentists under-report and share bad news with patients because most don’t take it well and don’t look after their teeth well at all. 

You’ve gone through your cleaning routine, which seems very extensive. That’s great. Flossing is one of the key exercises, especially after every time you eat. You need to remove food from between teeth. They also have those little brushes that clean between teeth, try those.

And no, your SO didn’t transfer anything to you. It’s not good to look for sources to blame. Confirm what’s happening and confirm if anything needs to be done. If a second dentist says don’t panic, don’t. If the dentist suggests a treatment plan, then you can either follow that or get a third dentist to confirm. Yes, it’s a little bit of memory, but considering your anxiety over this, it’ll be worth it.

Not strictly true. You can absolutely pick up new and more aggressive bacteria from a spouse. However, the bacteria don't cause the bone loss, they cause inflammation in the gums, and then the bone loss comes from the body's auto-immune response to the inflammation.

As for whether or not it's reassuring that the dentist didn't recommend anything...I'm not so sure about that. DH saw his dentist and hygienist for 10 years every 6 months and neither of them ever commented on the progressive bone loss he was having.

4 surgeries later and he's fine now. Thank god I have a lot of friends willing to do free surgeries for my family.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2021, 03:46:01 PM »
LOL thanks @Malcat. A perfect example of blind spots... I am always the champion of ageless chronological aging (as well as all the rarely celebrated aspects of getting older), yet here I was assuming gum disease was based on my age.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2021, 03:48:11 PM »
LOL thanks @Malcat. A perfect example of blind spots... I am always the champion of ageless chronological aging (as well as all the rarely celebrated aspects of getting older), yet here I was assuming gum disease was based on my age.

Nope. Not even a bit.

Some people with filthy mouths will never have bone loss around their teeth. It's an immune response that some people never get.

Meanwhile, my mom had such severe periodontitis that she lost teeth at the age of 19.

On average, people will get it as they get older, but it is 100% preventable in most cases.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2021, 06:08:44 PM »
Oh, and one last thought.

Don't put off dental x-rays, they're usually cheap ($30-60 here), they're about as much radiation as eating a bunch of bananas (I'm not even kidding), and most of what's wrong with your mouth can't be seen without them.

The American Journal of Oncology actually published in 2018 that dental x-rays do not increase risk of cancer, despite previous claims to the contrary. Between digital technology and thyroid collars on dental aprons, dental x-rays are quite safe according to the cancer folks, even though the dental folks are still a little behind on the times on this front, and the last time I checked, they were still subscribing to the lifetime cumulative radiation theory, which is what we're all taught, but whatevs.

Which means your dentist is likely more conservative about doing x-rays than the leading experts on cancer caused by ionizing radiation.

All that to say, don't worry about x-rays, even if they are aimed at your head. Catching dental problems early can save you thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Lastly, as for people who "don't trust dentists" I always wonder why they keep going to dentists they don't trust? If you don't feel totally, 100% confident that your dentist isn't a committed healthcare professional who cares more about your health and safety than their bottom line THEN DON'T GO TO THEM. Aren't dentists a dime a dozen in most places?

I don't generally trust dentists, lawyers, mechanics, used car salesmen, and I really don't trust doctors. However, I trust my dentist, my lawyers, my mechanic, the guy my family and I buy our used cars from, and only some of my doctors but that's because I'm in Canada and don't get to choose. I have A LOT of doctors. I trust one.

Basically, don't fucking let people you don't trust use *three hundred thousand RPM power tools* in your face! This is common sense people.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 06:15:46 PM by Malcat »

norajean

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2021, 07:33:49 PM »
Modern dentists are like car mechanics. Even car salesmen. If you take great care of your car then suddenly and new mechanic says the motor is shot, do you believe him? Get a new dentist.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2021, 08:03:21 PM »
Modern dentists are like car mechanics. Even car salesmen. If you take great care of your car then suddenly and new mechanic says the motor is shot, do you believe him? Get a new dentist.

On the flip side, "supervised neglect" is actually a HUGE issue in the dental industry. Absolutely it happens that some dentists over treat, but for every slimy over-treating dentist, there are probably a dozen who just watched as someone's mouth fell apart under shitty care.

I can't tell you how many people say things like "no matter what I do, I just keep getting cavities" or "my dentist told me I have soft teeth" or "my gums just keep receding" or "I just keep chipping teeth". Everyone has heard this at some point in their life. It's pure nonsense except in the rarest of situations, like Sjogren's, or after jaw radiation for cancer.

Shockingly, it's more profitable to be a shitty, neglectful dentist. And the patients can't tell.

So don't assume that just because a new dentist recommends a bunch of expensive treatments that they're a crook. They might actually be the good guy.

It happened to my DH. It also happened to my mom, my dad, my step mom, my aunt, and my cousin, all of whom lost teeth that could have been saved if a dentist had recommended more advanced, more expensive treatment years before. Suffice to say, I'm very picky about who my family see for their dental care.

Again, it's all about trust.

ETA: for the record, I say this as someone who's particular area of medical expertise is jam packed with scammy, excessive, slimy dentists and doctors. So I'm not talking from a position where I think that medical professionals are above bullshit over treatment for the sake of their bottom line.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 08:55:53 PM by Malcat »

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2021, 10:06:54 AM »
Yes, go see a periodontist. If your gums are receding, that's your warning. Don't scrub at them with baking soda, either - it's very abrasive. There are special periodontal toothpastes, though.

I've had periodontal issues since I was 30yo, and pregnant for the first time. 35 years later, I haven't lost any teeth, but I've followed a pretty rigorous treatment plan, and I get my teeth cleaned every 3 months.

honeybbq

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1468
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2021, 11:18:35 AM »
I didn't read all the responses, but if you having degenerative bone loss, please get to a GP and get a bone scan for the rest of your body. Osteopenia and osteoporosis is no joke and your dental x-ray may have given you general insight into a bigger problem.

(PS I hope your dentist was wrong!)

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2021, 11:44:23 AM »
My dentist highly recommends the use of a waterpik over flossing. She says bone loss occurs because bacteria get under the gum line and sit on top of the bone, causing it to erode over time. It's apparently very hard to get at all this bacteria with flossing alone. I've been told about a waterpik before but this time I decided to get one. I'm glad I use it now. Its not really a hassle. I got a cordless one with a little reservoir that you refill. Takes no more time than flossing and I guarantee you won't have anything left in your gum line when done. The water is very high pressure. They even give you a "beginner" pik that lowers the pressure until your gums are used to it.

I use both a waterpik and floss. Floss is better for larger stuff (I eat a lot of raw vegetables which can be fibrous) - followed by the waterpik.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2021, 11:53:42 AM »
I didn't read all the responses, but if you having degenerative bone loss, please get to a GP and get a bone scan for the rest of your body. Osteopenia and osteoporosis is no joke and your dental x-ray may have given you general insight into a bigger problem.

(PS I hope your dentist was wrong!)

Different disease. The dentist is highly likely right, most people over a certain age have this type of bone loss, just no one explains it to them in plain language.

Have you ever had your gums measured at a cleaning? Where they say numbers like "212, 222, 323, 332, 434, 533"?? Those are measuring how much bone has disintegrated, they're millimeters. The problem is that most hygienists are too polite and call it cute little terms like "pockets", which explains nothing. OP's dentist just called it accurately what it is.

It's not osteoporosis, it's not a loss of density, it's a loss of height.
It's like soil erosion, the density can be fine, but a tooth will fall out if it's only got 3mm left of bone holding it in your skull.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4136
  • Location: WDC
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2021, 04:41:02 PM »
Is it causing pain? 

I still have my wisdom teeth after several dentists suggest I have them ripped out of my head because they will cause problems.  50 years old and unless I get a popcorn husk trapped, no problems.  No pain.

What did they suggest you do differently to prevent additional bone loss?

Yes, my dentist's 'leave the wisdom teeth alone unless they are causing problems' approach is another reason I trust them.

My childhood dentist always gave me the same advice about the wisdom teeth.  Why mess with them unless they give you a problem? 

Then as an adult, I went to a dentist who explained to me that because I have a very small mouth (seriously, I can't even eat a whole piece of sushi without cutting it or choking) I couldn't clean well enough behind those last molars to keep them sparkling.  Then he explained that if the teeth start to rot, when they are extracted, they can shatter, which would mean they'd have to cut the jaw bone to extract all of the tooth.  That convinced me.  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

norajean

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2021, 04:56:11 PM »


…  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

Kickbacks are more common and legal than most people realize. See if your dentist will refer you to at least three completely unrelated specialists.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2021, 05:02:38 PM »
Is it causing pain? 

I still have my wisdom teeth after several dentists suggest I have them ripped out of my head because they will cause problems.  50 years old and unless I get a popcorn husk trapped, no problems.  No pain.

What did they suggest you do differently to prevent additional bone loss?

Yes, my dentist's 'leave the wisdom teeth alone unless they are causing problems' approach is another reason I trust them.

My childhood dentist always gave me the same advice about the wisdom teeth.  Why mess with them unless they give you a problem? 

Then as an adult, I went to a dentist who explained to me that because I have a very small mouth (seriously, I can't even eat a whole piece of sushi without cutting it or choking) I couldn't clean well enough behind those last molars to keep them sparkling.  Then he explained that if the teeth start to rot, when they are extracted, they can shatter, which would mean they'd have to cut the jaw bone to extract all of the tooth.  That convinced me.  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

Cutting jaw bone isn't a big deal in and of itself, but it can be if it's close to nerve. Otherwise bone is usually cut when removing wisdom teeth. As for dentists recommending to leave them alone, what they're usually talking about is leaving alone wisdom teeth that are either fully stuck in bone or never came through the gums. That's a totally different scenario than when they're actually in the mouth.

There's pros and cons to taking them out proactively and leaving them alone, but it totally depends on the individual case.

As for kickbacks from specialists, that's extremely illegal in Canada for both dentists and doctors. I think the medical anti-kickback statute in the US covers this.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2021, 05:04:10 PM »


…  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

Kickbacks are more common and legal than most people realize. See if your dentist will refer you to at least three completely unrelated specialists.

Again, I have to say though, if you don't trust your dentist not to refer you to the surgeon they believe is best, then don't go to that dentist.

Freedom2016

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2021, 05:47:43 PM »
Can anyone recommend a good water pik? Amazon choices range in price from $40 to $100; hard to know what price point gets you good/durable quality.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2021, 05:53:11 PM »
Can anyone recommend a good water pik? Amazon choices range in price from $40 to $100; hard to know what price point gets you good/durable quality.

Waterpik is a brand. All waterpik brand waterpiks are great, they just have different features.

The most important thing is to watch a video on how to use it properly, a waterpik can be either useless or damaging if used wrong. If used right, it's a great investment.

FWIW, the one I have is the portable model, but the professional portable model, which is waterproof and can be used in the shower.
Two reasons:
1: waterpik with cold water is torture on sensitive teeth
2: waterpik can be messy

gimmi80

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2021, 05:33:23 AM »


…  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

Kickbacks are more common and legal than most people realize. See if your dentist will refer you to at least three completely unrelated specialists.

Kick back in medicine and dentistry are, as a matter of fact, illegal. Punished by jail time and huge (practice ending level of) fines.
Usually referral in medicine/dentistry are made on a trust/skill/insurance network basis. You might get a bottle of wine for the holidays, but that's it.

Then I do not know the situation of that particular professionals, but kickback are usually not worth the risk of losing your practice or going to jail.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 05:35:02 AM by gimmi80 »

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2021, 06:45:01 AM »


…  He sent me to an oral surgeon, so unless there was a kickback involved, he didn't make any money off of me getting my teeth removed. 

No idea if it's true or not, but it's done now.  Just wanted to add that in case it makes a difference.

Kickbacks are more common and legal than most people realize. See if your dentist will refer you to at least three completely unrelated specialists.

Kick back in medicine and dentistry are, as a matter of fact, illegal. Punished by jail time and huge (practice ending level of) fines.
Usually referral in medicine/dentistry are made on a trust/skill/insurance network basis. You might get a bottle of wine for the holidays, but that's it.

Then I do not know the situation of that particular professionals, but kickback are usually not worth the risk of losing your practice or going to jail.

I was pretty sure it was the same in the US.

Patients always believe this is a common thing, but at least in Canada, I've never heard of it, and I've done a lot of advising specialists on their businesses, and not once have I ever heard of kickbacks, and I've seen A LOT of fraud and other illegal shit. Granted, frequently it's being done by staff who are stealing, because doctors are often clueless about their own business finance affairs.

I don't even know how a doctor or dentist would pull off a kickback to another independent doctor who is a totally separate business entity. How would the accounting even work??

I've gotten many very nice dinners from specialists, so more than just a bottle of wine, but I seriously can't fathom a way in which they would possibly manage to funnel actual money to me unless they did so from their own personal, after tax income, which would be beyond absurd.

Hadilly

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2021, 07:40:10 AM »
Yes, get a periodontist. Ask around to find a great one.

I have gum disease. As a result, I have a crazy cleaning regimen. Waterpik, floss, use a perioaid to run a tooth pick around the gum line, then use custom trays with a hydrogen peroxide gel for 15 minutes. After that, I brush with a prescription fluoride tooth paste. Wait half an hour and then use an antioxidant gel, putting it between my teeth with proxy brushes. That’s at night.

In the morning, I brush with the special toothpaste and then run the proxy brushes with an antibacterial rinse.

I get deep cleanings every three months at either my dentist or periodontist.

All of which is to say, you can arrest bone loss and gum disease, but it can take some work.


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2021, 08:20:03 AM »
Yes, get a periodontist. Ask around to find a great one.

I have gum disease. As a result, I have a crazy cleaning regimen. Waterpik, floss, use a perioaid to run a tooth pick around the gum line, then use custom trays with a hydrogen peroxide gel for 15 minutes. After that, I brush with a prescription fluoride tooth paste. Wait half an hour and then use an antioxidant gel, putting it between my teeth with proxy brushes. That’s at night.

In the morning, I brush with the special toothpaste and then run the proxy brushes with an antibacterial rinse.

I get deep cleanings every three months at either my dentist or periodontist.

All of which is to say, you can arrest bone loss and gum disease, but it can take some work.

Bingo.

The biggest red flag in OP's post is that the dentist DIDN'T recommend treatment.

norajean

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2021, 05:45:57 AM »

Kick back in medicine and dentistry are, as a matter of fact, illegal. Punished by jail time and huge (practice ending level of) fines.
Usually referral in medicine/dentistry are made on a trust/skill/insurance network basis. You might get a bottle of wine for the holidays, but that's it.

Then I do not know the situation of that particular professionals, but kickback are usually not worth the risk of losing your practice or going to jail.

This is a common misperception unless you live in a state with a unique law. Feel free to post a link.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2021, 05:54:18 AM »

Kick back in medicine and dentistry are, as a matter of fact, illegal. Punished by jail time and huge (practice ending level of) fines.
Usually referral in medicine/dentistry are made on a trust/skill/insurance network basis. You might get a bottle of wine for the holidays, but that's it.

Then I do not know the situation of that particular professionals, but kickback are usually not worth the risk of losing your practice or going to jail.

This is a common misperception unless you live in a state with a unique law. Feel free to post a link.

There is literally a US law called the "Anti Kickback Statute", it's a federal law.

I'm not an expert on US medical laws, but it seems almost identical to the Canadian laws, which I do know well.

However, I'm curious. You seem very certain that medical kickbacks are legal, so I'm wondering where that comes from. Is there some state my state laws that contradict it, like how marijuana is federally illegal but legal in certain states? Something like that?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 05:57:23 AM by Malcat »

norajean

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2021, 06:20:16 AM »

There is literally a US law called the "Anti Kickback Statute", it's a federal law.

I'm not an expert on US medical laws, but it seems almost identical to the Canadian laws, which I do know well.

However, I'm curious. You seem very certain that medical kickbacks are legal, so I'm wondering where that comes from. Is there some state my state laws that contradict it, like how marijuana is federally illegal but legal in certain states? Something like that?

That statute only applies if Federal monies are involved in paying the bills (e.g. Medicare). We don’t have socialized medicine in the US so most transactions are private.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2021, 06:45:10 AM »

There is literally a US law called the "Anti Kickback Statute", it's a federal law.

I'm not an expert on US medical laws, but it seems almost identical to the Canadian laws, which I do know well.

However, I'm curious. You seem very certain that medical kickbacks are legal, so I'm wondering where that comes from. Is there some state my state laws that contradict it, like how marijuana is federally illegal but legal in certain states? Something like that?

That statute only applies if Federal monies are involved in paying the bills (e.g. Medicare). We don’t have socialized medicine in the US so most transactions are private.

I figured I was missing something if you were so certain.

What about Stark law then? I guess that's the same since it's federal? Only applying to federal money?

ETA: so you can have a state where kickbacks are super illegal if done to a patient on a state health insurance but totally legal if done to someone with an employer health insurance?? 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 06:51:10 AM by Malcat »

Kem

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2021, 09:57:52 AM »
My own journey, not necessarily advice…

Since my late teens I’ve flossed daily before bed and manually brushed with soda after every meal and before bedtime.  I’ve had 1 filling since my late teens.

Despite this, pitting began to occur which was later followed with root infections, exposed roots, and some molar catch.  This was causing bone density damage, sensitivity, and painful infections. 

Based on advice from MY dentist to try before moving onto a full blown periodontist about 10 years ago I switched to the following regime:

Electric toothbrush, with light pressure.  Every tooth surface scrubbed and the gums too.
Use the saliva and toothpaste remnants as a rinse for 1 minute. 
Drink/eat nothing for at least 30 minutes after cleaning.

Morning Toothpaste:  Baking Soda based with sodium fluoride.  I use Arm&Hammer Advanced.

After meals/before bed Toothpastes:  ½ re-mineralization paste (I use GSK Sensodyne with Novamin) and ½ Stannous fluoride (I use Crest Gum Detoxify). 

The baking soda based toothpaste still gives the polished smooth feeling for the day.

Stannous Fluoride helps trace minerals in saliva to be re-adhered to the enamel really well & is excellent at killing bacteria below the gumline. 

Novamin, Biorepair, etc contain the various trace minerals needed in enamel surface and dentine creation/repair and tubule sealant in high quantities. 

Now, I have zero sensitivity, yearly x-rays show strong bones, and pitting has been reversed or halted.  I still have the single filling.

Alas, shortly after starting this regime GSK purchased Novamin and began a World marketing campaign for ‘re-mineralization/restoration’ marketing.  This infringed on FDA rules for their flagship product, and GSK decided to not pursue the pricey approval.  Since then other 'bioglass' toothpastes have emerged with the same ‘re-mineralization/restoration’ marketing. 
As such, as a USA resident I need to import the paste.  This is easy enough from Amazon and comes directly from the Vendor.


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: Dentist said I had irreversible bone loss
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2021, 10:11:52 AM »
My own journey, not necessarily advice…

Since my late teens I’ve flossed daily before bed and manually brushed with soda after every meal and before bedtime.  I’ve had 1 filling since my late teens.

Despite this, pitting began to occur which was later followed with root infections, exposed roots, and some molar catch.  This was causing bone density damage, sensitivity, and painful infections. 

Based on advice from MY dentist to try before moving onto a full blown periodontist about 10 years ago I switched to the following regime:

Electric toothbrush, with light pressure.  Every tooth surface scrubbed and the gums too.
Use the saliva and toothpaste remnants as a rinse for 1 minute. 
Drink/eat nothing for at least 30 minutes after cleaning.

Morning Toothpaste:  Baking Soda based with sodium fluoride.  I use Arm&Hammer Advanced.

After meals/before bed Toothpastes:  ½ re-mineralization paste (I use GSK Sensodyne with Novamin) and ½ Stannous fluoride (I use Crest Gum Detoxify). 

The baking soda based toothpaste still gives the polished smooth feeling for the day.

Stannous Fluoride helps trace minerals in saliva to be re-adhered to the enamel really well & is excellent at killing bacteria below the gumline. 

Novamin, Biorepair, etc contain the various trace minerals needed in enamel surface and dentine creation/repair and tubule sealant in high quantities. 

Now, I have zero sensitivity, yearly x-rays show strong bones, and pitting has been reversed or halted.  I still have the single filling.

Alas, shortly after starting this regime GSK purchased Novamin and began a World marketing campaign for ‘re-mineralization/restoration’ marketing.  This infringed on FDA rules for their flagship product, and GSK decided to not pursue the pricey approval.  Since then other 'bioglass' toothpastes have emerged with the same ‘re-mineralization/restoration’ marketing. 
As such, as a USA resident I need to import the paste.  This is easy enough from Amazon and comes directly from the Vendor.

A 4 minutes a night fluoride gel tray would be easier and cheaper for remineralizing roots. Most dentists just don't know it's an option.

I did a rotation in geriatric care and while I was there met a dentist who only works on medically compromised patients in nursing homes. I did a ride along with him and we became friends. He's taught me all sorts of tricks they don't teach dentists in school for managing complex cases, which has really helped with my mom who has severe chronic autoimmune health issues and whose dentist had no idea how to stop or even slow the problems. He would just shrug and blane it on her health problems.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!