Author Topic: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family  (Read 16946 times)

SavinMaven

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Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« on: October 14, 2018, 07:19:11 AM »
My "kid" brother is in his early 30s. He has an apartment, a girlfriend who doesn't work (claims she can't, but hasn't convinced anyone yet that she's disabled except herself and my brother) and a string of jobs the main miracle of which is that he somehow manages to always get the next one eventually. He stays at most jobs 3-4 months before having some sort of escalating disagreement with his boss that ends in him either quitting or being fired. Each time this happens there's various excuses, most of which involve external circumstances he believes were out of his control.

While working, he supports himself and his girlfriend. While not working, he (of course!) ends up desperate and asks for cash. This cycle has been repeating itself for at least 6 years. He doesn't seem able to see it despite my, our other sibling's, and our mother's attempts to open his eyes.

I do sincerely believe that the best way out of this is for him to realize no one is responsible for supporting him but himself, and if he chooses a partner that won't work then he has to be able to support her, too. He feels free to tell off his boss because when the lean times between jobs come, someone else cushions it for him. I get all that. I've told him "this is the last time I'm helping you" more than once (shame on me), but at least one of those 'bonus' times our mother called me and begged me to help him out, so I gave her money to help him with, I don't think he knew I was involved. I'm the only one in the family in a position to help him much, and I can (sort of) do it without hurting my own family. "Sort of" because when there is retirement to save for, and down the road, two kids' college educations that we choose to fund, is any dollar ever truly "extra" when it could have been invested instead?

But the conviction that he has to know this is up to him does NOT help the guilt. This weekend I went to the grocery store and the big box store, stocking up on everything from apples to kleenex, and couldn't help but think of him while I unpacked everything, thinking how he had nothing. They went to the food pantry a few days ago, because there was no food left in their apartment. I don't blame my mom for having begged me to help him in the past - this is hard for me to take as a sister; I can't imagine how it would feel to a mother.

I know there are many others who have dealt with similar situations in their families. I'm wondering a couple things - how do you handle the feelings of guilt? And, can anyone tell me any success stories, where the financial irresponsible loved one someday turned things around for themselves? 

Freedomin5

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2018, 07:49:09 AM »
We have several family members like that. They all made a series of bad choices that landed them in their current situation. We don’t feel guilty because we set good boundaries. Your mom bailing him out each time, and asking you to give her money to bail him out, is not setting good boundaries. As a result, your brother will never bear the full consequences of his actions of going around acting entitled and yelling at people in authority, and he will never learn to work through conflict and disagreement because he can just quit and run away.

BUT...given that we care for our family members and want to see them succeed, we try to help them develop areas of weakness, or for disabilities, we support them. For example, one family member has frequent “nervous breakdowns”. So we help by mentoring them, providing therapy resources, offering to pay for therapy, offering to pay for additional support so that they can get through their work. Yes, it still involves giving money, but the point is not to just give them a fish and feed them for a day, the point is to buy them a fishing pole and pay for fishing lessons so that they can gain more independence and emotional coping skills. No success story yet in this case because they have a lot of other stuff going against them.

But I do have a success story of another family member who grew up poor, took out a bunch of student loans for a college, and now has graduated and is unable to find a job in their field. However, this relative is also extremely hard working , working multiple part time jobs, volunteering with her basket weaving professor and wants to do a graduate degree. They were going to give up and just choose to stay in their current position cobbling together several minimum wage jobs. However, this person is super motivated. We are trying to mentor them at the moment on the wonderful (and previously unknown to her) world of grants and scholarships. Their parents want them to stay shackled local in an area where there are few opportunities in their area of study, but thankfully, they see the stupidity in the advice to stay local and have broadened their search to opportunities abroad. I have a sneaking suspicion that this story will have a happy ending, and we are happy to give whatever information and/or financial support to propel them forward.

AMandM

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 05:58:24 PM »
It i shard to watch beloved relatives suffer. But if the suffering is what is necessary to improve, then helping to reduce the suffering is really not helping in the long run. Does that help reduce the guilt?
Think of the medical analogy. If your brother was badly burned, you wouldn't stop the nurse from debriding and disinfecting his woulds, even though that is crazy painful. If you were the nurse, you wouldn't skip the care he needed to avoid the pain. You'd feel sorry for him, but you wouldn't feel guilty for causing the pain. (At least I hope not.)
In both cases, you aren't really the source of the pain. The real source is the burn or his lack of saving/employment.
Good luck to him and to you!

Sibley

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 06:14:00 PM »
Your brother is bringing his problems on himself. He keeps losing jobs because of his attitude/behavior, preferring instead to beg from friends and family. Now, that's his right, but it's also your right to decline to enable him or be harmed by him. You can love your brother, while at the same time recognizing his faults and declining to get involved.

The easy way to handle this is to not have money available. Money earmarked for retirement isn't available. Money earmarked for future education costs isn't available. So, change your mindset. Next time you get a phone call begging for money, your answer is, "I'm sorry, I wish I could help, but I don't have any free money. Have you tried <insert option of getting the money/services that doesn't involve you giving him money>?"

And everyone can cry and beg, but YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY. You don't need to feel guilty, because your brother could easily change his circumstances. All he has to do is get a job, not screw it up by behaving how he's been, and in time, he'll be fine.

aGracefulStomp

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 06:30:06 PM »
As Freedomin5 highlighted, throwing money at the result of the problem (unemployment/no money) will not solve the problem itself. To continue to do so is merely enabling the problem to continue.

I would offer to pay for counselling so that he can learn (and fix) why he can't work with others, has a hard time with authority, or whatever else is preventing him from having long-term employment. The other option is to give him money with conditions attached, such as attending therapy.

This way you're actually helping, rather than enabling.


Megma

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 07:25:27 PM »
SavinMavin, it’s really hard and I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Remember that we can only do so much. You’ve helped several times, you’ve met your obligation. You can’t help people who don’t help themselves, he’ll learn eventually when he has too....or limp from job to job visiting food pantries in between.

Help him with his resume, help him with transportation to the food pantry, give him thoughtful practical christmas gifts but no cash. Stay strong. Eventually he and the rest of the family will learn that you won’t give money.

I go through this with my mom (she told me Friday she is worried her mortgage will get foreclosed, she’s months behind on paying it...). I give her advice which she mostly ignores, pay for lunch when I visit and dont let her give me money as gifts (yeah she tries on Xmas etc, it’s weird). In short, i do what I can but I don’t give her any money. The last time I gave her money was fourish years ago and since then I’ve said no several times but now she’s stopped asking.

Norrie

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 07:39:24 PM »
It is really, really hard, but I commend you for recognizing that you’re not in a healthy cycle with this and looking for a way to break it. One of the biggest frustrations/stressors in my life is able-bodied relatives who are capable of working but don’t for various reasons. I’m right there with you and have made some incredibly stupid decisions to help family members (way above and beyond what I was comfortable with, and definitely things that have impacted my retirement savings and future finances). I have a great deal of regret over my actions and am trying to move forward with much more healthy boundaries. But it is extremely complicated.

I do believe that people have to feel the fear of hitting rock bottom, whatever that may look like (lack of adequate food, losing their home), before fully understanding that the onus is on them to earn money to provide for themselves. I’m not sure if there’s anything that I can say to alleviate your guilt, but know that I think that you are doing the right thing. Healthy boundaries are awesome. There’s a book called Co-Dependent No More that may or may not be helpful to you or your mom.

Milizard

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 07:59:24 PM »
Sounds like you brother may have ADHD.  I suspect he is with this girlfriend because can't get one who is better to put up with him.

dude

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 08:08:56 AM »
Sounds like it's past time for some Tough Love. You've built a dependency, and it won't go away until you cut it off completely. One possible alternative is to require something in return, i.e,, his labor. Have any yard work, painting, cleaning or the like he can do? Tell him you had money earmarked to hire someone for those tasks, but that you'd consider hiring him instead. Unless geographic distance isn't conducive to this? Continuing to enable him isn't good for either of you.

Dances With Fire

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 09:24:19 AM »
As Freedomin5 highlighted, throwing money at the result of the problem (unemployment/no money) will not solve the problem itself. To continue to do so is merely enabling the problem to continue.

I would offer to pay for counselling so that he can learn (and fix) why he can't work with others, has a hard time with authority, or whatever else is preventing him from having long-term employment. The other option is to give him money with conditions attached, such as attending therapy.

This way you're actually helping, rather than enabling.

+1 As others have pointed out you need to stop enabling with money that is earmarked for your own families long term plans. As gently as possible, try to convince your mother (and them) that this is helping no one. Years from today, there will be resentment, not quilt for putting your own retirement, college, and family plans on hold.

I have seen money that was supposed to help a family member spent on booze, smokes, gambling, car payments for a car they could not afford, and/or drug use. Money that was used to enable adult children for DECADES.

The "girl friend" needs to be bringing in a disability check from the Government or find a job she is capable of. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, however the cycle needs to end and yes, counseling may very well be need here. Best of Luck to you and your family...

mm1970

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 10:42:46 AM »
How do you deal with guilt?  You really have to remind yourself that he brings it upon himself.

It's not that he's disabled.

It's not that he got fired because he missed too much work due to cancer treatment.

He has a problem working.  He needs to grow up and get over it.

Tell yourself that.  Lather, rinse, repeat.


My younger brother is a reasonably hard worker, but always "needed money" from my mom and stepdad.  For kid braces, work on the house, etc.  He and his wife liked to SPEND (eating out, clothing, constant recycling of new and used cars, so much money on gas to go shopping).  My brother had a 30 hr a week low paying job, and his wife was bringing in the dough working 60 hr a week.

Well, eventually brother got a better paying job (state job), "Now I can retire someday!"  Wife got a lower paying job (but now she doesn't have to work 60-65 hours a week either, so that's good).

As far as their spending goes?  Well, my mom died.  They don't have the guts to ask my stepdad.  They complain about their kitchen being old and made for midgets (really, prior owners were 4'10" ad 5' tall and my brother is 6'2").  While he is completely capable of doing the work himself, he's lazy and doesn't want to.  So it's half done.  They seem to be surviving in any event.

Catbert

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 11:09:54 AM »
Sounds like you brother may have ADHD.  I suspect he is with this girlfriend because can't get one who is better to put up with him.

How does the inability to get along with others and "escalating disagreement with his boss" translate to ADHD? 

Milizard

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 11:33:25 AM »
Sounds like you brother may have ADHD.  I suspect he is with this girlfriend because can't get one who is better to put up with him.

How does the inability to get along with others and "escalating disagreement with his boss" translate to ADHD?

It's like a chapter out of this book, or several chapters, actually:
https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizing-Attention/dp/0307743152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539624492&sr=8-1&keywords=driven+to+distraction


Frankies Girl

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 11:56:51 AM »
Just as an additional "it's not your fault and it's not wrong to stop giving them money/help" bandwagon...

Enabling this type of behavior - where they make excuses for poor decisions and expect others to bail them out of the mess instead of figuring it out themselves - is actually more hurtful than helpful. You're building up a lifetime of dependence and poor judgement/logic/practical skills when you "solve" their problems for them. It's called learned helplessness and it sucks and makes stupid, annoying mooch people for life.

You are doing harm to him as an adult to not allow him to hit bottom and figure shit out himself. Actions have consequences. Poor stupid decisions SHOULD have consequences. We learn not to stick our hand on the stove or roll through a fire ant hill because it HURTS, but if you step in and rescue them from the pain every single time... what's to really stop them from doing it again?

They aren't going to end up dead on the side of the road. There are too many programs out there for people, too many basic jobs he and the girlfriend could get (literally have a pulse and you can get the job). It may not be high paying, but they could easily survive on their own if they put in hard work. The girlfriend will leave if she isn't getting her needs met. He'll figure out that keeping a job means keeping his apartment and stuff, or he'll lose it.

I get you love him and don't want him to suffer, but what you are doing is PROLONGING THE SUFFERING because he won't learn until he hits bottom and realizes his actions are what are causing the mess and he needs to change.

So next time, you say "Brother, I love you and it really pains me to say this, but I am not going to step in this time because you are an adult and you need to figure out how to deal with this problem without me swooping in and fixing things for you. I may not always be around, and it scares me that you still lean so heavily on family to bail you out every time, instead of buckling down hard and working on your problems yourself. You are a smart, capable person and I have every faith that you can and will work through this stuff without my help. I'm here for advice, or willing to listen to you if you need to vent about frustrating things, but I'm not giving you any more money or providing you with economic help for this issue. "

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 12:00:00 PM »
1) Quit enabling, and admit to yourself this is exactly what you're doing, which you know logically, but you have to fully accept.

2) Check out the book Boundaries.  It's exactly for situations like this, and one of my favorite lines is 'just because you won't do something FOR someone, doesn't mean you're doing anything TO them'.  He's doing it to himself, and needs to learn this, which he'll never do if there aren't consequences.

I have a friend exactly like this.  Every boss he ever has is an asshole.  To which I say to him, maybe it's not everyone else that's the asshole...  He also job hopped every few months (always for 'reasons') until the bank of mom and dad finally closed, and lo and behold, he held his next job 2 years!  And had some savings!

Everyone has to grow up.  Unless he has legitimate mental health issues that require help, being lazy and/or an asshole doesn't justify outpatient financial care (not calling your brother that, more my friend :-) )

partgypsy

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2018, 01:48:26 PM »
Your brother sounds like my sister. Except that she has managed to hold onto jobs for years at a time, before something happens, either her being late to job and or conflict with boss. Unfortunately she is now in her 50's and only has essentially just above entry level type mostly service type experience. And they are going to hire a young peppy person over a 50 year old for that type of job.

I don't know if it is ADHD, or possibly some other type of issue (there is actually a disorder called oppositional disorder, also bipolar II, depression, etc) that is hampering him, because his job history is not normal. Most people can suck it up to keep even a crappy job, boss situation. He needs to figure out a long term situation for whatever is going on, by maybe seeing someone, getting on medication, whatever. He needs to learn how to be an adult, and that is taking care of yourself and not expecting someone else to do it.

But I feel for you. It is NEVER easy. I have 2 kids and am now divorced, no financial help from Ex. I moved many states away from my original family, never asked for assistance after graduating college to underline, I have my own life, my own priorities and responsibilities. I don't ask anything of you, do not expect anything from me. But I still get sucked in sometimes. 

One thing you have to realize, unless it is a once in a blue moon situation, you giving money to bail out your brother is not helping. It is enabling. You can still be his brother, give advice, be there for him in other ways, take him to a career placement center, research stuff. But do NOT help financially. Even if your Mom is still enabling you need to get out of that cycle. Honestly it would be best if Mom did as well, have an intervention. It's worth talking to and maybe giving your mom some information about how she is helping is not helping him long term. She might see the light, she might not, but that's her road, not yours.

 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 01:54:01 PM by partgypsy »

Penn42

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
There's a member of my GF's family kinda like that.  Always quits or gets fired after a few months.  In either situation there's always some outrageous story.  The first couple times I thought he had bad luck, but there's only so many iterations of the same circumstances that can happen before a common denominator appears.  He's got in demand technical skills and has lost/quit several super sweet gigs.  In the between times he seems to rely on his parents.  I'm not completely sure of that because I mostly stay out of it. 

Also related, I've always known my uncle has money issues and that my grandmother has dug him out a couple times.  It was only recently I learned, though, that she has owned his house for over a decade and doesn't collect rent.  A grown ass man in his 50's making good money as a medium wig for a department store can't get his shit together enough to pay rent.  My grandma is pretty well set, but ultimately his continued malfunction falls on her shoulders if you ask me. 

I wouldn't feel too bad about your brother.  It sounds like he has plenty places to look for emotional/professional/general support and is continuing to make bad choices.  At some point people have to learn the hard way or not learn at all.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 03:56:24 PM by Penn42 »

seemsright

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2018, 04:39:36 PM »
My Father in law is in deep debt. He has asked the BIL who is disabled who lives with him to ask us for cash. The thing is when my MIL died hubby and I spent weeks, (while hubby was moonlighting with a intense deadline) coming up with a financial plan for him. It was enough of a plan so he could retire and live a simple life. He would be able to keep the house, do a few fun things if he worked his side gig. It was all written down and he said he understood. He retired from his janitor job. All was good except he could not stay out of the casino. He wanted a different car, he needed this he needed that.

He ended up having to go back to work. He still cannot stay out of the casino and the last time hubby talked to him he needed a grand to make the new mortgage work the way he wanted. He is almost 70 and has a full mortgage and is looking at for foreclosure.  We could step in and save him. But he wont do the work to stay saved. So our lines to him is we have nothing left at the end of the month. 60% of what is going out every month is to investments, either 401K, IRA, 529, Vangaurd and soon a Roth. But that is not the point.. We can not help him. He is two far gone.

Do not feel sad that you cannot help your brother. And I do not see why you would waste your breath in trying to help him see the light. There is a ton you can do while you live your life where maybe the wool will be pulled from his eyes and see that there are ways around the hole he is in.

coppertop

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 07:35:21 AM »
I saw situations like this time and time again when I was a probate paralegal.  Son or daughter could not handle money nor keep a job and mom/dad would bail them out every time.  Eventually, mom/dad would die and leave the son/daughter an inheritance, which they would promptly blow through, at which time there was no one left to bail them out.  One person in this situation wound up living in their car after having inherited well over a million.  It is not helping people to hand them money each time they get into trouble because no lesson is ever learned.  I'd buy him a sandwich if he were hungry, but that would be the extent.  "Sorry, but I'm tapped out at this time."  I know you feel bad, but the best way you can help is to point him in the direction of counseling. 

Milizard

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 08:04:39 AM »
Outpatient economic care is only going to make them addicted instead of solving the cause.

Tabaxus

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 08:11:24 AM »
Had this with my father.  I deeply regret not helping him more.  He brought a lot of it on himself, though when he got older we legitimately would have had a hard time working.  He's since passed away.  So.


NV Teacher

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 09:09:52 AM »
We hate watching people suffer, even the idiots.

FireHiker

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2018, 10:24:20 AM »
I go through this with my mom (she told me Friday she is worried her mortgage will get foreclosed, she’s months behind on paying it...). I give her advice which she mostly ignores, pay for lunch when I visit and dont let her give me money as gifts (yeah she tries on Xmas etc, it’s weird). In short, i do what I can but I don’t give her any money. The last time I gave her money was fourish years ago and since then I’ve said no several times but now she’s stopped asking.

My situation with my mother is very similar to this, except she doesn't ask for money (yet). She has spent the last ten years unemployed, mooching off of her sister and a friend back and forth. Her sister finally sold her house (where my mom was living most recently) so my mom just bought a mobile home in a cheap area and moved there a week ago. It's about an hour from me (too close!). I tried to get her to run a full budget and make sure it was within her means and she got really mad and defensive, all "I never ask you for anything why do you care". When she visits I never let her pay for anything if we go out to eat or go to do anything. It makes me crazy that she sends money in a birthday card both to me AND my husband despite the fact that she doesn't have it to give and it is really more of a source of stress to me than anything else. This year we saved the money and used it to buy supplies for when we went to her place last weekend and did a bunch of home repair stuff to make the ghetto mobile home livable.

More than once in her life she's had some sort of windfall where she SHOULD have been set, but she spends all her money buying collectible shit she doesn't need on ebay. One year I went home for Thanksgiving and she said she didn't have money for groceries so I gave her $50 to cover the meal; I was a single mom at the time but I could kick in $50 for a holiday meal, sure. I checked her ebay account and saw that she had just that week spent $70 on a Tinkerbell snowglobe...she already had 12 Tinkerbell snowglobes; I counted them when I was there for Thanksgiving. I just don't see that it's ever going to change. She has social security and a small pension but very little savings otherwise. It's hard to see, but she has made her own decisions and when I've tried to help with financial advice she has made it abundantly clear that she doesn't want to hear it. We're getting ready to pay for my oldest to go to college so I will very easily be able to say "absolutely no extra money in our budget period" for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, all that to say, I understand. Even though I KNOW she has made terrible choices, and she was really shitty to me my whole childhood, verbally abusive, etc, while we were in and out of dysfunction and homelessness, I still have guilt when I don't help. I have to be careful to set up boundaries and keep them firm. It's a work in progress. Fortunately my husband is fantastic through it all, but he had a wonderful, "normal" upper middle upbringing with stable, responsible parents, so he cares and is sympathetic but doesn't really understand the guilt and turmoil.

mm1970

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 10:47:57 AM »
We hate watching people suffer, even the idiots.
Yes, it's tricky isn't it?

It's something I mull over often, when I see the growing homeless population in town.  Begging on corners.  Living in RVs.  Sleeping in tents on the beach (I see them during my morning runs).

I wish I knew an easy answer, but there isn't one. 

I don't want them here.  But where do they go?
Some of them have jobs and just cannot afford rent - and that is pretty common all over the country now.
Some of them have family, but I've spend enough time in the world and on this board to realize that family doesn't necessarily deserve to be burdened either.
Some of them are lazy and don't want to work.
Some of them are disabled and cannot work.
Some of them have limited mental capacity or need to be in a mental institution, but we really don't have those anymore.

So where is the line?  What is society's responsibility?  How do we care for people who cannot care for themselves?  What do we do for people who can, but WON'T care for themselves?  And how do you distinguish the difference?  Or do you even bother?

Pigeon

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 10:53:59 AM »
I also wonder if he has some type of psychological condition or personality disorder.  If I was strongly suspicious of that, I might help with therapy if he would participate.  If I thought he's just a jerk, I'd have no problem not helping financially.  Where it gets hard is if he's leaning on your mother for help, but all you can do is have a frank talk with her and then back away.

ABC123

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 10:58:26 AM »
Deal with the guilt by remembering that giving him money is NOT helping him.  By blocking him from the consequences of his actions, you are actively harming him.  If he has to go to a food pantry a few times, maybe he will decide he prefers to buy his own groceries.  Or maybe not, maybe it doesn't bother him a bit.  But you can't take that upon yourself. 

What does your spouse think of you giving him money the money that is earmarked for retirement or college funds for your children?  Can you have a frank discussion about this, and ask him/her to help you stand strong the next time the request for money comes?  Can you have a discussion about this with your mom, and ask her to not ask you for money for him again? 

A moocher is going to mooch.  I try to picture myself in that position, and I can't even imagine how humiliating that would be for me.  But people like him don't have that same view.  He is going to take your money as long as you will give it to him.  He is obviously not embarrassed about it, and doesn't really see a problem with you funding his and his girlfriend's lives.  You have to be the one to say no.  Once you say no a few times, he will realize that path is over, and will either find someone else to fund his life, or he will keep a job, or he will figure out a way to live with no money.

If the pantry truly is bare (not just "nothing he feels like eating", but truly empty), then I would buy food for him.  I couldn't let my brother go hungry just because he won't buy it himself.  But I would buy actual food, not give him money.

Jouer

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 02:45:05 PM »
I almost threw up when I read the OP. I am going through the exact same thing with my brother right now. Only difference is his wife isn't disabled (but is low income earner) and they have two little girls. That last part is what really kills me. Also, he's 10 years my junior and we're from a single parent family so I feel like I half-raised him. 

I live in a different province so don't see them a lot but I visited last thanksgiving and caught a glimpse of what was going on. Then before Xmas he had car trouble and thought buying/financing a new one was the best option because he couldn't afford to fix the old one. (???!???!!!) Took my dad and I a lot of work to talk him out of that one. Then he changed jobs but had non-paid training and some licensing wait-time so was unpaid for several weeks. Without savings for that time, of course. He's behind on his bills, his taxes. Ugh, everything.

Around that same time I started getting panic attacks. The guilt/worry really caught up to me and I spent about 3-4 months a bit of a mess before my therapist's work really pulled me out of the fog.

All this to say:  I haven't figured out how to turn off the guilt....but know that you are not alone. We have to keep telling ourselves that we're doing the right thing, even when we are hurting inside.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2018, 04:53:41 PM »
My parents enabled my brother's financial irresponsibility, among other things, for decades. The result: He ended up homeless in his 50s. DH came home one day to find him sleeping on our front lawn. DH and I had talked about that possibility beforehand with regards to both our brothers (his mom was also an enabler) and we agreed that we would not support such behavior. Bro wanted beer, money, a place to crash, and we said no. Yes, it was tough to send him away, but I'm glad we'd made the decision before the situation arose. You really do have to draw a hard line sometimes.

Why should you feel guilty anyways? Those who get into those situations don't seem to feel guilty!

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2018, 06:47:54 AM »
I appreciate all the input. It's comforting, though saddening, to see how common a situation like this is. For now, the situation is on pause because he's so mad I won't give him money, he's giving me the silent treatment. On the bright side, if he's not talking to me, he's not asking for money.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2018, 07:01:04 AM »
We hate watching people suffer, even the idiots.
Yes, it's tricky isn't it?

It's something I mull over often, when I see the growing homeless population in town.  Begging on corners.  Living in RVs.  Sleeping in tents on the beach (I see them during my morning runs).

I wish I knew an easy answer, but there isn't one. 

I don't want them here.  But where do they go?
Some of them have jobs and just cannot afford rent - and that is pretty common all over the country now.
Some of them have family, but I've spend enough time in the world and on this board to realize that family doesn't necessarily deserve to be burdened either.
Some of them are lazy and don't want to work.
Some of them are disabled and cannot work.
Some of them have limited mental capacity or need to be in a mental institution, but we really don't have those anymore.

So where is the line?  What is society's responsibility?  How do we care for people who cannot care for themselves?  What do we do for people who can, but WON'T care for themselves?  And how do you distinguish the difference?  Or do you even bother?

Don't forget people who have jobs, could afford rent, but nobody will rent to them because of bad credit, previous eviction, criminal record, sex offender, etc.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2018, 07:59:37 AM »
There's a member of my GF's family kinda like that.  Always quits or gets fired after a few months.  In either situation there's always some outrageous story.  The first couple times I thought he had bad luck, but there's only so many iterations of the same circumstances that can happen before a common denominator appears.  He's got in demand technical skills and has lost/quit several super sweet gigs.  In the between times he seems to rely on his parents.  I'm not completely sure of that because I mostly stay out of it. 

Also related, I've always known my uncle has money issues and that my grandmother has dug him out a couple times.  It was only recently I learned, though, that she has owned his house for over a decade and doesn't collect rent.  A grown ass man in his 50's making good money as a medium wig for a department store can't get his shit together enough to pay rent.  My grandma is pretty well set, but ultimately his continued malfunction falls on her shoulders if you ask me. 

I wouldn't feel too bad about your brother.  It sounds like he has plenty places to look for emotional/professional/general support and is continuing to make bad choices.  At some point people have to learn the hard way or not learn at all.
Yeah, my former SIL was like that. She mostly worked retail, and she'd get hired, do really well, and get promoted to assistant manager ...and then inevitably quit or get fired. It was usually some issue with the head manager, though sometimes she'd just quit so she could go on vacation (she never lasted long enough to build up vacation time or seniority).

She was married to my brother at the time, who held a steady job, so I guess it didn't really matter to her how often she was between jobs (though they did need the money). They were both spendypants, and she married him young, so I don't think she had ever had to face the reality of supporting oneself on a single income; she was still treating her career(s) like a high school job, to be jettisoned whenever it became annoying or inconvenient.

After they separated/divorced, it took several years and a heavy dose of reality to get her act together, but last I heard she was doing somewhat better (by necessity, once my brother finally cut her off).

saguaro

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2018, 08:15:21 AM »
I appreciate all the input. It's comforting, though saddening, to see how common a situation like this is. For now, the situation is on pause because he's so mad I won't give him money, he's giving me the silent treatment. On the bright side, if he's not talking to me, he's not asking for money.

I haven't weighed in on the situations I have seen both in my own and in-law family but yeah, it's amazingly common!  Regarding your brother's "silent treatment" it seems like the situation has resolved itself at least for now.   

Having been on the receiving end of the "silent treatment" when someone is not getting their way, I used to feel bad when someone did it, now I see it as emotional manipulation / blackmail / punishment on their part.  It tells me something about them that I will keep in mind if / when they resume contact and want something in the future.   I am going through such a situation right now.

ABC123

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2018, 01:51:12 PM »
I appreciate all the input. It's comforting, though saddening, to see how common a situation like this is. For now, the situation is on pause because he's so mad I won't give him money, he's giving me the silent treatment. On the bright side, if he's not talking to me, he's not asking for money.

He isn't mad because you won't give him money, he is mad that he has to face the consequences of his actions and you won't treat him like a mischievous 2 year old.  This isn't a situation where he can't pay the rent because medical bills bankrupted him.  It is HIS CHOICE to live this way.  This is only your business if you let it be.  Don't let it be your business! 

simonsez

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2018, 02:43:03 PM »
They aren't going to end up dead on the side of the road. There are too many programs out there for people, too many basic jobs he and the girlfriend could get (literally have a pulse and you can get the job). It may not be high paying, but they could easily survive on their own if they put in hard work. The girlfriend will leave if she isn't getting her needs met. He'll figure out that keeping a job means keeping his apartment and stuff, or he'll lose it.
Agree with your post except for this part - well, kinda.  I think undiagnosed mental issues are at play with a lot of these situations.  A rational person would indeed utilize a program or work hard or do whatever it takes to get by on their own.  We're often not dealing with rational people in these situations. 

Say you have a family member that fits the bill of the OP's situation, at what age do you stop trying to talk to them about going to counseling/therapy after they've refused 1000x?  They certainly won't take advantage of the programs available to them and definitely do not want family help for professional resources.  I mean, people DO end up dead on the side of the road or in alleys, etc.  It is rare but it's not a randomized segment of the population, there are some commonalities typically involved.  And when a parent or a sibling or whatever loved one is aware of some serious warning signs, it's hard not to feel some guilt at the looming homelessness and potential early death.  Also, ability to work hard can be extremely complicated or impossible due to mental state.

Like I said, I agree with everything else.  I just think the mental health aspect is overlooked and often even when it might not be, carries serious stigma.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2018, 07:19:44 PM »
OP, you're part of a family pathology. Your best bet is to look into your own issues of codependence. You're giving your brother $$ for _yourself_, to soothe your own toxic guilt even though you see the self-destructive cycle he is in. In some ways, the enabler is just as sick as the addict.

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Johnez

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2018, 07:39:43 PM »
Best bet is to reframe the situation. My family came at me asking me to co-sign for a house. I didn't have to put any money down, but my name is on that house, on the hook for half a million dollars were they to default for whatever reason. It would have cost me nothing otherwise. They called me, crying, begging me to, as they were actually being evicted (owner of the rental they were at was selling) and laid on the guilt. What made me decide against "helping" them was this-I wasn't being asked without obligation, I was being manipulated. I hang up the phone every day on sales people who want money in return for their services, these people offered nothing in return, only the fact that I owed them due to a blood relation. Anyway, I put my interests first, my family's interest (2 kids here), and avoided placing them in a dangerous situation by standing firm. Your brother has made decisions to put his family or self at risk and now wishes for help. To ask is one thing, but to burden you with guilt is manipation and proof that your decisions are not respected. They (your mother/brother) cannot be trusted with holding your best interests at heart and are in a state of mind that is going to perpetually hirt them and everyone around them.

Jouer

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2018, 12:31:56 PM »
Some great points here. I'm not OP but I posted my similar experience so I'm using this thread as therapy.

Has anyone else who has gone through something like this offered help in terms of education and had it work? Actually had the family member take the advice? I've offered many things ranging from "go talk to this free credit expert from the province" all the way up to "show me your books and I'll show you the best way out of this, including managing the process" and stuff in between. None of this worked so it would be great if anyone has tips on how to get the message across better than I've been doing so far.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2018, 12:56:29 PM »
I wish I could say yes, but not really.

Well, there was a close call. My brother who is the black sheep in my family, my parents finally in desperation signed him up in High School age for this outward bound (operation break out) program, that was most of the people a choice between that or juvenile detention. It was actually good for him, but no one is going to tell him what to do, so him and this other guy, literally broke out of it. They were in the middle of some forest in MO. They walked out to a highway, crossed into IL, made it to a farm house (who let them in) and brother called my parents "come pick me up" before collapsing in exhaustion. Instead, parents called the program. After he came back from the program, he WAS like a different person. Calm, respectful. Also some self esteem because he happened to be good at climbing, other parts of it, and was able to help out other people, versus being seen as the "fuck up".

But, parents couldn't keep up the structure and discipline and things slipped back to the way he was. My Mom was a pushover never enforced anything or gave consequences. Dad was away from home most the time. But I think it could have worked. 

LibrarianFuzz

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2018, 04:18:06 PM »
Having a job may not actually be a problem for him...

...but working for someone else sure is.

Can you help him transition to some kind of self-employment? Something that minimizes his interactions with a boss-type figure?

Driving for Uber or Lyft, delivering packages for Amazon, selling on Ebay, designing eBook covres, doing social media for a company, offering services on Fiverr?

kms

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2018, 07:38:02 AM »
Fortunately, I never had to go through anything like this. My younger brother and his wife are both very responsible adults, and so are my parents, my wife, her sister, and my mother in law. My FIL is a different story, but my wife cut him out of her life long before we met so we don't have to deal with it. Accordingly, anything I say has to be taken with a grain of salt as it's not from personal experience as in "I had to deal with this, and this is how I solved it" but rather as in "this may be the reason why I never had to deal with this".

The best way to deal with the guilt is to tell yourself over and over again that by giving him money and bailing him out you are not helping him but rather enabling him to continue down this self-destructive path. You can tell a child the stove is hot a million times, but they will only start believing you when they burn themselves. That's the way my parents raised me and my brother - they gave us advice, but also let us hit rock bottom instead of bailing us out. It must have been hard on them, but in the long run it was incredibly helpful and the right thing to do. They never enabled us, and I strongly believe that our independence and financial stability is a result thereof.

What you are doing to your brother is harmful and dangerous because you're creating a codependency. The longer you keep enabling him, the more harm you are going to do, and the harder it is going for him to break the cycle. What if some day you won't be able to bail him out anymore? Not because you don't want to but because you literally can't? Cancer treatment, kids, unexpected unemployment, you name it - there is a gazillion things that can go wrong tomorrow, and your brother is going to suffer even more than you and your immediate family because of the codependency you've created. Deal with the guilt by telling yourself that you need to break this cycle for his own benefit, not yours.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2018, 08:03:14 AM »
Don't forget people who have jobs, could afford rent, but nobody will rent to them because of bad credit, previous eviction, criminal record, sex offender, etc.

...or because of having a child, or for having a pet, or for being under 19, or for being under 55 where housing stock is only available to over 55s, or because of regional regulations forbidding the offering of secondary suites or pads for tiny homes or an extra family on an acreage...

Re: guilt, I’ve only found a couple of things effective. One, therapy (especially CBT) to develop a fuller perspective and to retrain my mind tracks. Two, when it comes to manipulative or narcissistic people, reduced or eliminated contact. Sometimes when we pay close attention for a while we discover that all their contact is an effort to get something. When that’s so, I think limiting contact is best. When they can’t tell the story created to induce guilt/elicit unwarranted assistance, the source material for guilt isn’t there.

Jouer

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2018, 08:24:16 AM »
Having a job may not actually be a problem for him...

...but working for someone else sure is.

Can you help him transition to some kind of self-employment? Something that minimizes his interactions with a boss-type figure?

Driving for Uber or Lyft, delivering packages for Amazon, selling on Ebay, designing eBook covres, doing social media for a company, offering services on Fiverr?

This is what my brother did. Unfortunately, he did it with no savings and being behind on his bills. So he goes into sales where compensation is 100% commission. It doesn't go well at first so he gets behind on his bills. After a while he's doing better so earning more money. Then he decides he wants to switch to a different opportunity (still all commissions) but it takes him 3-4 weeks unpaid to get trained and get his license. Behind on bills even more. In collection. I learn from dad that he didn't hold out taxes from his commissions so owes about 6 months' worth but has no money to do so. Going self-employed has made things so much worse for he and his family. If he kept his old crappy job, he would have been fine. It paid $40k a year in LCOL.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2018, 09:13:29 AM »
Quote
Has anyone else who has gone through something like this […]Actually had the family member take the advice?

Yes (family members, friends, and strangers).

But I think it’s because I don’t limit it to advice. I offer (to nonstrangers and strangers):
*funding of brain disability assessment/diagnosis
*referral to a specific, smart person who is capable of helping (not to one who is supposed to, but who is not capable/effective)
*help applying for disability coverage
*help to get or maintain housing, therapies, and disability services
*help slashing budget

There’s a pattern. For the first decade or so, many are unwilling to receive anything except cash gifts from family and friends. Eventually, they become reluctantly willing to receive financial help from a disability program. Most ignore my advice to access/implement therapies (which throws me, because I find therapies to be almost as helpful as the above).

Many ideas demand a LOT of resources (cognitive, energetic, time) from the helpee. Most people who are struggling don’t have as much of those available as the “help” requires. When we set things up this way, some will manage to temporarily reorganize sufficiently to be able to access the first level(s) of the help suggested, on its terms, and break through the barrier. Many won’t. Or they’ll manage enough steps to secure a few of the practical pieces, then reach their limit of capacity. We think the person didn’t want x badly enough, when actually they lacked the cognitive (or other) resources to navigate the steps advised. i.e. A lot of people need help, not advice.

That said, I don’t consider a regular gift of cash helpful, when there are more effective options.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2018, 03:51:15 PM »
Having a job may not actually be a problem for him...

...but working for someone else sure is.

Can you help him transition to some kind of self-employment? Something that minimizes his interactions with a boss-type figure?

Driving for Uber or Lyft, delivering packages for Amazon, selling on Ebay, designing eBook covres, doing social media for a company, offering services on Fiverr?

THIS.

I obviously don't know the full story, but these posts always read to me like someone who has not found their niche. He sounds like he's good at finding jobs and getting employed, so he's not a total loser. His personality type isn't suited to those situations. That doesn't make him a loser. That could make him the kind of person who can go out on his own and end up making millions. Maybe he just doesn't know how. YET. I'm kind of that type of person myself, and I spent a lot of years comparing myself to the wage monkeys and coming up short. I had a lot of people in my life that also told me I was failing because I wasn't like them. I make more than them now....

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2018, 03:57:42 PM »
I had a lot of people in my life that also told me I was failing because I wasn't like them. I make more than them now....

:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

genesismachine

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2018, 05:14:26 PM »
Quote
Has anyone else who has gone through something like this […]Actually had the family member take the advice?

Yes (family members, friends, and strangers).

But I think it’s because I don’t limit it to advice. I offer (to nonstrangers and strangers):
*funding of brain disability assessment/diagnosis
*referral to a specific, smart person who is capable of helping (not to one who is supposed to, but who is not capable/effective)
*help applying for disability coverage
*help to get or maintain housing, therapies, and disability services
*help slashing budget

There’s a pattern. For the first decade or so, many are unwilling to receive anything except cash gifts from family and friends. Eventually, they become reluctantly willing to receive financial help from a disability program. Most ignore my advice to access/implement therapies (which throws me, because I find therapies to be almost as helpful as the above).

Many ideas demand a LOT of resources (cognitive, energetic, time) from the helpee. Most people who are struggling don’t have as much of those available as the “help” requires. When we set things up this way, some will manage to temporarily reorganize sufficiently to be able to access the first level(s) of the help suggested, on its terms, and break through the barrier. Many won’t. Or they’ll manage enough steps to secure a few of the practical pieces, then reach their limit of capacity. We think the person didn’t want x badly enough, when actually they lacked the cognitive (or other) resources to navigate the steps advised. i.e. A lot of people need help, not advice.

That said, I don’t consider a regular gift of cash helpful, when there are more effective options.

+1

People need to have compassion for these types of mental issues. No reasonable person chooses to live like OP's brother. I do believe there is some kind of underlying disorder at work.

For whatever reason, I have a pretty good amount of experience with people like this in my family/friend circle. My friend's brother got cut off, now he lives in his car and has for years. My neighborhood streets are full of people who got cut off and have addictions. My uncle on one side has been unable to hold a job, much in the same way as OP's brother - always getting in arguments. He's just turned 60 and hasn't changed yet even though both parents are dead.

My sister in law's husband has like 4 brothers all in/out of jail for stupid stuff. I had two troubled foster teenagers, one is doing fine now, the other has 3 kids from random women and is borderline homeless. Another friend's mom, dad and sister are all in some sort of self-inflicted near collapse.

On the flip side, I have more millionaires in this circle than I can count, and they are all dealing with the same guilt/problems as the OP. Luckily my wife and I somehow seem to not be hit up by anyone for money.

I wouldn't feel any guilt over it, but I also wouldn't feel so self-righteous dispensing tough love as a one size fits all solution. In my experiences above, tough love has never worked a single time.

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2018, 09:19:23 PM »
Don't forget people who have jobs, could afford rent, but nobody will rent to them because … [they are a] sex offender ...
After we had a halfway house for rapists and pedophiles set up near our home, I subscribed to our state's sex offender registry notification system.  It lets us know when one of them moves into or out of our neighborhood.  There are about 500-600 of these folks in our county (which seems to be about par for the course in our state). 

It's unfortunate they are let out of prison in anything other than a casket, but since they are, it makes me happy to see one of them with an address of "under Person Street bridge".   It's the next best thing to an address of "6 feet under".

PS - don't waste my time telling me about 17 year olds getting in trouble because of a 16 year old girlfriend.   I'm sure one of these near-mythical folks exist, but in about 8 years of watching hundreds of notifications about these folks, I haven't seen anything like that.   The overwhelmingly typical case is a guy in his 30s to 60s molesting a child age 2 to 10.   Next most likely are the plain old fashioned rapists, again with a huge disparity in age.


If I found out I had someone like that in my family, I would feel absolutely no guilt at not helping them.   





kite

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2018, 04:39:38 AM »
There is a God***, and I am not Him.  So I'm forever absolved from having to save anyone, or rescue them, or otherwise fix their lives.  I'm most certainly NOT their Savior and I should never pretend to be.  That's how I forestall any guilt.  (I do subscribe to a particular faith tradition that confers an obligation to help the poor, but again, I have no illusions about fixing other people's problems.)

***For Atheists, since there is no God, you aren't Him either. 

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2018, 02:54:14 PM »
They aren't going to end up dead on the side of the road. There are too many programs out there for people, too many basic jobs he and the girlfriend could get (literally have a pulse and you can get the job). It may not be high paying, but they could easily survive on their own if they put in hard work. The girlfriend will leave if she isn't getting her needs met. He'll figure out that keeping a job means keeping his apartment and stuff, or he'll lose it.
Agree with your post except for this part - well, kinda.  I think undiagnosed mental issues are at play with a lot of these situations.  A rational person would indeed utilize a program or work hard or do whatever it takes to get by on their own.  We're often not dealing with rational people in these situations. 

Say you have a family member that fits the bill of the OP's situation, at what age do you stop trying to talk to them about going to counseling/therapy after they've refused 1000x?  They certainly won't take advantage of the programs available to them and definitely do not want family help for professional resources.  I mean, people DO end up dead on the side of the road or in alleys, etc.  It is rare but it's not a randomized segment of the population, there are some commonalities typically involved.  And when a parent or a sibling or whatever loved one is aware of some serious warning signs, it's hard not to feel some guilt at the looming homelessness and potential early death.  Also, ability to work hard can be extremely complicated or impossible due to mental state.

Like I said, I agree with everything else.  I just think the mental health aspect is overlooked and often even when it might not be, carries serious stigma.

From my personal experience with my dad, mental illness was at play. He was born with OCD and other mild issues that got progressively worse after my brother and I were born. His parents were wealthy and "helped" my mother by writing my dad a monthly check to compensate for his inability to work. They tried therapy and medications but my dad would lie about the appointments and refused to take medicine.

At one point my mom tried to get him institutionalized for help but the system said no - he was too well. His rage grew worse over time. Verbal arguments and abuse. His mental issues led to declining health. Even to this day in assisted living he runs the risk of getting kicked out because he verbally abuses nurses and staff.

Money certainly didn't fix his problems and he actually squandered the majority of it on shopping addictions due to his OCD and hoarding. So giving money to someone who does not have dependents is not going to get them far. I don't know enough about the mental health system to know what options are available. My dad didn't accept them and more intensive ones weren't an option.

I really don't have a solution but just wanted to say you are not alone. At 35 years old my brother and I are still dealing with my dad and trying to figure out how to take care of my mom. Sometimes getting a therapist for you (as you navigate difficult emotions) can be beneficial!

lollipop_hurricane

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Re: Dealing with Guilt at Not Helping Family
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2018, 03:22:33 PM »
I would help your brother.  He sounds like someone who truly needs help.  However, I think you should choose how much help and what kind of help you want to give.  For example, buying food for someone is nice and usually genuinely appreciated, and if you can afford this gift, then why not?  However, if he needs $500 for his rent, and that's a lot for you, then you just say no.  You don't have to decide now exactly how much to give forever, but it's helpful to just budget it in.  Think of it as a charity donation.

I don't subscribe to the idea that letting them go hungry makes them better at working or keeping a job.  I would suggest the gf look into disability.  Some people are not as blessed as others when born into this world.  That doesn't mean they don't deserve a life without suffering. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!