Author Topic: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?  (Read 3566 times)

teen persuasion

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2017, 09:40:07 PM »
I need light in the morning to get me up, so I want to shift things in winter - it's dangerous for my kids to be waiting out in the dark in the dead of winter for the bus (so we should shift dawn to earlier, or push back the start of school until after sunrise).  But in the summer, having sunrise at 4 am when no one gets up that early to use the daylight is a waste, so I'd like to shift things even further as we approach the summer solstice.

With our current DST scheme, I feel they've moved Spring Ahead a few weeks too early - we are just getting to a nice time for dawn, and they go and move it!  Wait until dawn is too early, and then reset it instead.  When DH was trying to bike to work, it was always frustrating - just as he had enough daylight to safely bike to work on time, DST hit and pushed dawn off again.

While we are railing against antiquated programs that no longer make sense, why does our school year still conform to agrarian schedules?  What percentage of the population is that important to now?  Given the numbers that have to come up with summer childcare arrangements, wouldn't year round schools make more sense?  Although in my area, I'd prefer to have a 4 or 6 week blizzard season break - just stay home and hunker down when the weather will be ugly (and enjoy holidays with the family) and skip the snow day roulette.  Of course, climate change is throwing a monkey wrench in predicting when we get winter weather - we've had a relatively mild winter, until now.  Last week they used 2 snow days for wind related power outages, and they've pre-emptively closed school for tomorrow.

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2017, 05:23:12 AM »
Bad, just more government crap

Villanelle

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2017, 05:27:14 AM »
Ditch it.  Whether a region prefers daylight savings or standard time, pick one and stick with it.  I live in a place that doesn't change the clocks (Japan) and it's wonderful not to have to deal with it.

Well Respected Man

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2017, 06:32:03 AM »
DST all the way! Add a second hour of it from May-July. No one should have to wake up when it's already light. What a waste of daylight. In the depths of winter, I like the 6 week school vacation/hunkering down idea. How about shortening the work day by an hour or two from mid-November through mid-January?

Fudge102

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2017, 07:46:28 AM »
I lived in Japan for three years.  They don't have DST there.  Just the same ol time zone year round.  It's great.  You don't worry or care about when the sun comes up or goes down.  It just changes.  Being a morning person myself, I prefer the sun in the morning.  Winter sucks either way because either the sun's down before you go to work, or before you come home.  Big picture, just go with and stick with it.  It doesn't really matter.  But get rid of the stupid idea of changing the clocks.  Solar panels, power plants, they all produce power all the same.  Batteries are the answer to demand periods, not moving clocks around.

CheapScholar

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2017, 08:05:34 AM »
I think the way people answer this question might largely depend on where they live within a time zone.

I've lived most of my life in metro Chicago, which is very close to the eastern border of the central time zone.  It can make life really depressing in the winter.  Especially in January when the sun sets at 4:30pm and you then have to drive home in dark traffic.  Just awful.

3 years ago I moved to northern Indiana, and we are in the eastern time zone.  I can't tell you how much better I feel.  At least here, even on the darkest day of the year, I can leave work at 5pm and get home before dark.   

Changing clocks does really suck.  I can manage it for the most part, but my 7 year old can't.  Our week is off to a horrible start.  Maybe we could agree to no more clock changes and split the baby down the middle?  This fall, we only fall back 30 minutes and NEVER change ever again?

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2017, 04:40:24 PM »

kayvent

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2017, 09:25:39 PM »

While we are railing against antiquated programs that no longer make sense, why does our school year still conform to agrarian schedules?  What percentage of the population is that important to now?  Given the numbers that have to come up with summer childcare arrangements, wouldn't year round schools make more sense?  Although in my area, I'd prefer to have a 4 or 6 week blizzard season break - just stay home and hunker down when the weather will be ugly (and enjoy holidays with the family) and skip the snow day roulette.  Of course, climate change is throwing a monkey wrench in predicting when we get winter weather - we've had a relatively mild winter, until now.  Last week they used 2 snow days for wind related power outages, and they've pre-emptively closed school for tomorrow.

Fall Harvest. The school calendar isn't based on an agrarian schedule. We're almost the opposite. If it was, we'd have Fall and part of Spring off instead of three weeks in winter and ten weeks of Summer. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2017, 05:16:25 AM »

While we are railing against antiquated programs that no longer make sense, why does our school year still conform to agrarian schedules?  What percentage of the population is that important to now?  Given the numbers that have to come up with summer childcare arrangements, wouldn't year round schools make more sense?  Although in my area, I'd prefer to have a 4 or 6 week blizzard season break - just stay home and hunker down when the weather will be ugly (and enjoy holidays with the family) and skip the snow day roulette.  Of course, climate change is throwing a monkey wrench in predicting when we get winter weather - we've had a relatively mild winter, until now.  Last week they used 2 snow days for wind related power outages, and they've pre-emptively closed school for tomorrow.

Fall Harvest. The school calendar isn't based on an agrarian schedule. We're almost the opposite. If it was, we'd have Fall and part of Spring off instead of three weeks in winter and ten weeks of Summer. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

Long story short, summer break is because it's hot and until recently many schools didn't have a/c. The school district that I went to only had one school (middle school built in 80s) that had a/c. I graduated in 03 and they just built a new modern high school about 5 years ago. The elementary school still does not have a/c. This is a relatively decent local school district with 200+ person graduating classes in the Midwest so pretty average. The first couple weeks of school at the end of August and the end in May were often uncomfortable, as in warm to the point that focusing on class was more difficult. It was especially bad if you had gym and then had to sit in a 80+ degree classroom.


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talltexan

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2017, 06:35:41 AM »
I don't get why the one called standard time is only in effect 4ish months each year.

Exactly. What we have in place for most of the year should be "Standard" and those four months around the winter should have been dubbed "Daylight Wasting Time."  As I'm in the southern U.S. I'd be fine if we  ditched the whole time-changing thing altogether since we benefit less from it at this latitude.


Careful, I was being a bit sarcastic but got the technical response from a poster earlier.

Will be interesting if, as solar becomes a bigger share of energy production, what is the "optimal" time to balance demand and capacity. Extra sunlight hours as people go to work or get home. If it doesn't make any difference, then let's just pick one and stick with it since it's not like there is a 50/50 split time wise as is.


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I work for a large public utility: your question ultimately gets at the issue of when the peak demand on our electrical generation/grid occurs. During winter, it often occurs in the morning when people start waking up and turning on their lights. During summer, it happens in late afternoon (like 4 pm) when air conditions are working against the moment of peak summer temperature.

Unfortunately, peak solar generation occurs when the sun is hitting the panels most directly, often around true noon, which is 1 pm during DST.

Ocinfo

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2017, 07:41:55 AM »
I don't get why the one called standard time is only in effect 4ish months each year.

Exactly. What we have in place for most of the year should be "Standard" and those four months around the winter should have been dubbed "Daylight Wasting Time."  As I'm in the southern U.S. I'd be fine if we  ditched the whole time-changing thing altogether since we benefit less from it at this latitude.


Careful, I was being a bit sarcastic but got the technical response from a poster earlier.

Will be interesting if, as solar becomes a bigger share of energy production, what is the "optimal" time to balance demand and capacity. Extra sunlight hours as people go to work or get home. If it doesn't make any difference, then let's just pick one and stick with it since it's not like there is a 50/50 split time wise as is.


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I work for a large public utility: your question ultimately gets at the issue of when the peak demand on our electrical generation/grid occurs. During winter, it often occurs in the morning when people start waking up and turning on their lights. During summer, it happens in late afternoon (like 4 pm) when air conditions are working against the moment of peak summer temperature.

Unfortunately, peak solar generation occurs when the sun is hitting the panels most directly, often around true noon, which is 1 pm during DST.

Good data point. My main message is that we should do what is optimal within some bounds (e.g., don't change by more than a few hours since that can be too disruptive). I'm doubtful that a 1 hour change has any meaningful net benefits so either study and establish benefits of 1 hour change, identify a more optimal change within some bounds, or just stay on a single time if the net benefits are near zero.


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teen persuasion

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2017, 08:26:03 AM »

While we are railing against antiquated programs that no longer make sense, why does our school year still conform to agrarian schedules?  What percentage of the population is that important to now?  Given the numbers that have to come up with summer childcare arrangements, wouldn't year round schools make more sense?  Although in my area, I'd prefer to have a 4 or 6 week blizzard season break - just stay home and hunker down when the weather will be ugly (and enjoy holidays with the family) and skip the snow day roulette.  Of course, climate change is throwing a monkey wrench in predicting when we get winter weather - we've had a relatively mild winter, until now.  Last week they used 2 snow days for wind related power outages, and they've pre-emptively closed school for tomorrow.

Fall Harvest. The school calendar isn't based on an agrarian schedule. We're almost the opposite. If it was, we'd have Fall and part of Spring off instead of three weeks in winter and ten weeks of Summer. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

Thanks for the info.  So not truly agrarian based but instead urban heat island based from an era before insulation and A/C.  Still an antiquated hold over from the past that should be re-examined.  Sounds like local conditions should be taken into consideration: here heat in the summer isn't much of an issue, but winter storms hitting frequently are.  I wish we had 3 weeks of break at the holidays, we only generally get one week + one day, depending on how Xmas/New Year's falls.  Another week in late Feb (President's day extended to a week) stolen from the old 2 week Easter break, now 1 week + 1 day.  That's a fairly new change.  Ten, sometimes 11 weeks in summer is too long of a break, academically at least.  Start and end of the school year is already regional - we run after  Labor day to the last week of June here, but I've heard other states run August to May.

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2017, 09:22:58 AM »

While we are railing against antiquated programs that no longer make sense, why does our school year still conform to agrarian schedules?  What percentage of the population is that important to now?  Given the numbers that have to come up with summer childcare arrangements, wouldn't year round schools make more sense?  Although in my area, I'd prefer to have a 4 or 6 week blizzard season break - just stay home and hunker down when the weather will be ugly (and enjoy holidays with the family) and skip the snow day roulette.  Of course, climate change is throwing a monkey wrench in predicting when we get winter weather - we've had a relatively mild winter, until now.  Last week they used 2 snow days for wind related power outages, and they've pre-emptively closed school for tomorrow.

Fall Harvest. The school calendar isn't based on an agrarian schedule. We're almost the opposite. If it was, we'd have Fall and part of Spring off instead of three weeks in winter and ten weeks of Summer. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

Thanks for the info.  So not truly agrarian based but instead urban heat island based from an era before insulation and A/C.  Still an antiquated hold over from the past that should be re-examined.  Sounds like local conditions should be taken into consideration: here heat in the summer isn't much of an issue, but winter storms hitting frequently are.  I wish we had 3 weeks of break at the holidays, we only generally get one week + one day, depending on how Xmas/New Year's falls.  Another week in late Feb (President's day extended to a week) stolen from the old 2 week Easter break, now 1 week + 1 day.  That's a fairly new change.  Ten, sometimes 11 weeks in summer is too long of a break, academically at least.  Start and end of the school year is already regional - we run after  Labor day to the last week of June here, but I've heard other states run August to May.

My dad told stories of Fall harvest in northern Texas.  The entire school was let out for a week or two and EVERYONE (teachers, students, principal, etc) picked cotton.  It was definitely not in the summer.
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acroy

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2017, 09:26:08 AM »
Waste of energy and effort.
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seattlecyclone

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2017, 09:57:26 AM »
I agree with year-round DST.

The twice-per-year time change is such a disruption to people's lives and to computer systems. Seems like every time we switch the clock there's some new bug discovered for some important computer program that wasn't set up to handle it correctly.

And yet, if we standardized on "standard" time year-round, we'd have sunrise before 5 AM for a third of the year here in Seattle, and I think that's even stupider than changing the clocks back and forth all the time.
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Fudge102

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2017, 07:01:01 AM »
I agree with year-round DST.

The twice-per-year time change is such a disruption to people's lives and to computer systems. Seems like every time we switch the clock there's some new bug discovered for some important computer program that wasn't set up to handle it correctly.

And yet, if we standardized on "standard" time year-round, we'd have sunrise before 5 AM for a third of the year here in Seattle, and I think that's even stupider than changing the clocks back and forth all the time.

I lived in a country where that was normal.  You just learn to deal with it.  It only seems weird because we shift the clocks around.  Light in the morning, light at the end of the day, in the end it's all the same.  You learn to live with what you have.  If you shift it the other direction, then in winter you never see light until 9 or 10 in the morning.  It's hit or miss not matter which way you go about it.

talltexan

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2017, 07:44:54 AM »
I'd be curious to see whether state in-migration to Indiana changed when they adopted the DST practice 10 years ago. It could provide a sense of whether people care enough about this to change where they live based on it.

BlueHouse

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2017, 08:53:07 AM »
I agree with year-round DST.

The twice-per-year time change is such a disruption to people's lives and to computer systems. Seems like every time we switch the clock there's some new bug discovered for some important computer program that wasn't set up to handle it correctly.

And yet, if we standardized on "standard" time year-round, we'd have sunrise before 5 AM for a third of the year here in Seattle, and I think that's even stupider than changing the clocks back and forth all the time.

I lived in a country where that was normal.  You just learn to deal with it.  It only seems weird because we shift the clocks around.  Light in the morning, light at the end of the day, in the end it's all the same.  You learn to live with what you have.  If you shift it the other direction, then in winter you never see light until 9 or 10 in the morning.  It's hit or miss not matter which way you go about it.

If anyone here has ever gone a significant amount of time without electricity, it's amazing to feel your body adjust to normal daylight rhythms.   I went 6 months with no TV, no electric.  The body adjusts wonderfully.  Once you stop artificially forcing yourself to stay awake to watch Jimmy Fallon, then you go to sleep at a normal hour and wake up at a normal hour -- without alarms!  My biggest problem was sometimes how to stay awake until at least 9pm...otherwise I'd be awake at 4 in the morning.  Never felt better.  I'm looking forward to the day when I can ditch all sense of other people's time to do something and follow my own routine. 
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partgypsy

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2017, 10:03:27 AM »
I guess I'll be the dissenter and say that DST doesn't bother me that much. I work a regular office job, so people expect me to be there at certain hours. Once had spring forward, when I get home from work there is plenty of daylight for me to take my dog for a long walk, while it was dark early before dst. For people who are cubicle dwellers, even an extra hour of daylight is a real boon.
My kids took a couple days to get used to the change. No big deal.
I don't care strongly enough about it one way or another to make a protest if they got rid of it. 

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2017, 08:13:12 AM »
I want the evening light! I can't do much before work but I want to be outside all day and the evening is all I get!

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golfreak12

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2017, 09:40:32 PM »
DST way the way.
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CheapScholar

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2017, 06:22:34 AM »
I'd be curious to see whether state in-migration to Indiana changed when they adopted the DST practice 10 years ago. It could provide a sense of whether people care enough about this to change where they live based on it.

The data might not tell the entire story though.  I'm a former Illinois resident now in Indiana.  There are a LOT of us and we didn't come here because of anything to do with clocks.  It was all about escaping insane taxes and the corruption of IL.

pudding

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2017, 05:43:56 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

That is all.


Thats a funny video and that's how I feel about it too! ;)

VeggieGirl

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2017, 06:45:13 PM »
I was fine with DST until it was changed, should have just left well enough alone.

GuitarStv

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2017, 08:01:03 PM »

spicykissa

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2017, 09:49:29 PM »
As a night shift worker, Spring Forward is lovely, but doesn't make up for the horribleness that is Fall Back. There's nothing worse than living the 0300 hour over again. Also, clock changes can be dangerous in hospitals, particularly for medications.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2017, 04:51:42 AM »
Put me in the DST year round camp.  Now that we're here, let's stay.

Agreed. DST ends in about two weeks here, and I'm not looking forward to it. It almost feels as though the weather changes around the same time as the clocks do.

What I'd actually consider is DST in reverse, where the time goes an hour forward in winter and back in summer. I'm sure a lot of folks wouldn't agree with me as it'd mean sunrise in winter is at almost 9.

FWIW, school summer holidays are about six weeks here, and we went back right at the hottest time of year. I'm sure some of the school buildings I was in didn't have aircon. I'm amazed that summer holidays are nearly three months in the US (are there many breaks during the school year?).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 04:53:47 AM by alsoknownasDean »

kimmarg

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2017, 08:17:56 AM »
Personally I work rotating shift in an industry that uses UTC time so I'm pretty oblivous to the whole issue. I don't get people complaining one way or another. Just keep doing what you do at the same solar relative time and let them call it something else. I hate changing twice a year.

That said I really wish Maine would go to Atlantic time zone.  In mid winter sunrise is 7:10am and sunset is 4:00pm. (more like 7:20am and 3:45pm in the north). Then in summer we see the sunrise at 5am (4:40am up north), and honestly it starts getting light around 4:30am. I don't need sunrise at 4:40am. let's move that back to 5:40am ok?

kimmarg

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2017, 08:22:34 AM »
As a night shift worker, Spring Forward is lovely, but doesn't make up for the horribleness that is Fall Back. There's nothing worse than living the 0300 hour over again. Also, clock changes can be dangerous in hospitals, particularly for medications.

oh god yes. The only thing worse than working 2-3am is working it twice in one night. At least it's an hour of OT...

MrsFarmer

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2017, 08:49:05 AM »
I think I am the only person I know who likes the change. Mornings suck enough as is. Having to start my job in the dark all winter long would make them suck that much more. We are probably getting rid of one of them in Alberta and I hope we keep dst.

talltexan

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Re: Daylight savings clock change... good or bad?
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2017, 08:48:07 AM »
I heard a comedian (perhaps it was Dane Cook) propose that you make the time change be five hours (!?!) instead of one. So we're all basically on London time?