Author Topic: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...  (Read 3810 times)

Abe Froman

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Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« on: March 18, 2021, 12:21:38 PM »
So  I have a pretty cush job right now. I have worked very hard over the last 15-20 years to get to this point.
My wife and I have been thinking of me retiring (she is a SAHM) for the last 6-9 months. COVID and work from home was impetus enough just to stick it out. But recent work news - which I am not too happy about has me thinking to pull the plug sooner than later. Sooner being next month.

At current spend rate - we are at ~2.5% WR. So I feel fairly confident we can do it.

BUT I just have this icky feeling, like I would be letting EVERYONE down at work if I do give my 2 weeks. The owner is real nice - but the leadership and direction from others in the C-Suite I feel could be a lot better. They are nice and all - but impending and likely work this summer and fall - just turns my stomach. Yes I have done this work many times for years prior - and all the extra effort I gave was never met with any additional bonus as it were. Not that I was actively seeking it - but once in a while - for some pretty cool stuff - you know? Like I do for my staff....

I have setup my direct reports so that they are self sufficient and can take on more breadth in capability - and make sure that they can take over while I am gone, or at least able to do so.

But my notice of leaving would come out of nowhere, and I suspect that this would stun many. I know that at least all the Sr. leadership would call me directly asking WTF? But my heart is not in it anymore. Working more - even monitoring email - just gives me that pit in your stomach - you know? I think I also have the fear of jumping off this cliff - or perceived cliff.

BUT ... I also feel icky because I want to leave a job that pays well over $150k that takes little to no effort.
I mean who does that!?  I am working in my sweats - getting up late - playing with kids at my leisure - even some sexy time with the Mrs in the middle of  the day🙂 - AND  getting paid for it all.
Maybe I have built the skills and confidence along the way to warrant it - but still, I feel like I am trading a big flaky donut for a dusty old door stop. I suspect I am feeling guilty or some such. Imposter syndrome mixed with fear?

I know this has been addressed in many ways on this site - but wanted to get this off my chest and get it out into the ether, maybe that will help.
Does one rip off the band aid?
I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?


CodingHare

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2021, 12:35:28 PM »
Seems like a straightforward case of one more year syndrome.

Regarding how your leaving effects your company... people leave all the time for health, better salary, personality conflicts.  If your company can't absorb that, that's on them, not their employees.  And they certainly aren't paying you extra for extra effort put in, so that shows you they don't value you as much as you think they do.  :)  Employees as family only benefits the business.

If the work this summer will be more stressful than what you are doing now, is that the real reason you want out?  You could try discussing with your manager to see if they will make any improvements since you have FU money.  Or you can just say enough is enough.

Also if your impending retirement feels like a "dusty old door stop" and your job feels like "a big flaky donut", maybe you need to spend some time figuring out what you want to do in retirement.  Which might also help with making the decision to go or not.  :)

Congratulations on reaching FI either way--it's all about being able to make the decision you want, not the decision you are financially forced to!

PDXTabs

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2021, 12:38:20 PM »
BUT I just have this icky feeling, like I would be letting EVERYONE down at work if I do give my 2 weeks. The owner is real nice - but the leadership and direction from others in the C-Suite I feel could be a lot better. They are nice and all - but impending and likely work this summer and fall - just turns my stomach. Yes I have done this work many times for years prior - and all the extra effort I gave was never met with any additional bonus as it were. Not that I was actively seeking it - but once in a while - for some pretty cool stuff - you know? Like I do for my staff....

It sounds to me like you should give them more than two weeks notice. Tell them now that you don't plan on coming in on June 21st.

the_gastropod

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 12:47:28 PM »
Wow. First off, congrats on saving up 40x your expenses. It sounds like you're in a pretty bullet-proof position. That's amazing.

You don't owe your employer anything. You have every right to quit today, right now, 0 notice, and not feel one bit bad about it. Two weeks notice is more than accommodating.

If they'd be in as big a pickle as you think they would, they'll probably make that clear and try to bribe you to stay. It's obviously up to you whether the money's worth it or not. But if you don't need the money, and are dreading working during this time, I wouldn't think twice about pulling the plug and enjoying more time with the family.

As CodingHare said—the "we're family here!" kind of workplaces are just abusive. Your coworkers are not your family (unless they're actually your family... which is weird). Don't fall for any guilt trip messaging trying to suggest responsibility for their unpreparedness is on you. Run for the hills!

Metalcat

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2021, 12:59:50 PM »
Who leaves a well paying job?

Someone who doesn't need it.

The more important question is who gives up the bulk of their waking hours to stay in a job that they absolutely do not need???

Never give much weight to any rationalization when it comes to fear of change. Humans are rationalizing creatures, not rational creatures.

If staying in your job constitutes your vision of your ideal life, the stay. If it doesn't, then staying for any rational is downright batshit crazy. So what it feels icky? Most people find change dreadfully difficult for some reason, that doesn't mean change is bad.

Figure out what you want and then nut up and do it. Own the decision, follow through, and stop getting in your own head and in your own way.

As far as I can tell, what you are saying is that you have NO EXCUSE to not be living your absolute BEST life, every single day from here on out. So for fuck's sake, go do that.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 01:20:29 PM by Malcat »

swashbucklinstache

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2021, 01:11:05 PM »

Figure out what you want and then nut up and do it.
^yup

Maybe figure out what job you would apply to right now if you were retired. Would you apply for this job? This job with some parts removed? If you would apply for this job, think of a number you'd feel is worth it to you then add 20% to it and put it into the orally delivered message below to your boss.

"Boss, I'm just not interested in xyz any more. I'll do just x & y, but my compensation needs to move to $$$$$$$$$ at this point. I understand if that isn't something that makes sense on the business end, and I come to you satisfied with going our separate ways with a long set of happy memories to look back on if that's the case."

reeshau

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2021, 01:12:31 PM »
BUT I just have this icky feeling, like I would be letting EVERYONE down at work if I do give my 2 weeks.

...

I have setup my direct reports so that they are self sufficient and can take on more breadth in capability - and make sure that they can take over while I am gone, or at least able to do so.

If I had felt any guilt about leaving work, it might be to my team--my direct reports.  Even then, it isn't really on you; most companies have watered down the employee / boss relationship to avoid the risk of exploitation and related lawsuits.  But I always felt a need to mentor my team too, at least in part as a way of honoring the good bosses and mentors I had in my career.

So, it seems you have this base covered.  If your leadership calls in alarm, you can say: "Relax.  My team is capable and can step up."  Maybe put a good word in for a replacement, if you don't have a formal succession plan.

Then all you need is some soak time on what your post-retiremwnt life will be like.  It seems like you have a good start, thanks to WFH.

Congratulations, and good luck taking the leap!

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2021, 01:15:25 PM »
So, you like (or at least tolerate) the job at the current moment, but not once summer hits? Is there a specific date or a specific project? Just tell them that you plan on leaving before X date or that you will not be working on Y project. If the latter, and they say that you HAVE to, say "um, no I don't; if it's an absolute requirement for someone in my position to do Y project, then let me know two weeks in advance so I can give you my notice." Worst case scenario, they fire you on the spot (hello expanded unemployment benefits!).

You're at a 2.5% SWR at current spending? Any way you could reduce that to 2% (not saying you should, but could you?)? That's my personal cutoff where I'm not allowed to worry...stocks could drop 50% overnight and now you're at a 4% SWR. When's the last time stocks dropped 50% and didn't quickly (within a few years) recover? Stop worrying!

Here's what you ARE allowed to worry about. How much would it take to get you to WANT to do Y project? I mean, everyone has a number. Would an extra $100k be enough? $200k? Ok, so YOU don't need the money, but you could just throw it at various charities. $500k? What is the number? Stick to that. I'd go so far as to make it clear that you MIGHT reconsider at $500k/yr, but you make no promises.

That's just me though.

chasingthegoodlife

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2021, 01:32:03 PM »
It sounds like you’re dreading explaining to your leadership team WHY you are leaving.

I get that, but I don’t think you owe them an explanation. Unless you know them outside of work, something vague about ‘family reasons’ is perfectly appropriate (and true).

If you don’t want to work, and you don’t have to work, but you’re not quite ready to draw the line in the sand and call yourself retired, why not think of this as a sabbatical?

nirodha

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2021, 01:44:57 PM »
Important to remember it is not a binary choice. Some questions I'd have:


Does your 2.5% WR account for insurance and any other work related benefits you may want to replace?

What if you did the job, but didn't put in any extra effort?

What if you took the job down to half time?

Would a frank conversation with the leadership team produce another option?

Is there protected leave you might qualify for, to give things a dry run? FMLA. Sabbatical. Unpaid leave due to Covid. Etc.

SavinMaven

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 02:40:52 PM »
Quote
I also feel icky because I want to leave a job that pays well over $150k that takes little to no effort.
I mean who does that!?  I am working in my sweats - getting up late - playing with kids at my leisure - even some sexy time with the Mrs in the middle of  the day🙂 - AND  getting paid for it all.

If you were truly trading your quality of life for the job, then I would say run for it and enjoy your retirement.

But you're getting up late, playing with the kids when you want to, and having sex mid-day? I'm not so sure your quality of life will improve after you retire!

My unconventional suggestion is simple: pick a charity or two that matter deeply to you. Live for six months as a philanthropist: give every after-tax penny of your earnings away. This may give you a sense of renewed meaning and purpose, and it's hard to picture regretting this phase of your life when someday on your deathbed. If, after this burst of philanthropy, and living on no salary, it's time to retire, you'll know it.

Congrats and good luck!

Abe Froman

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 03:11:43 PM »
Wow - great responses - mostly the kick in the pants kind.

...Figure out what you want and then nut up and do it. Own the decision, follow through, and stop getting in your own head and in your own way.
As far as I can tell, what you are saying is that you have NO EXCUSE to not be living your absolute BEST life, every single day from here on out. So for fuck's sake, go do that.
- yeah - giggle - nut up. You are right.
What you do remind me of though - is that some of the greatest accomplishments (I feel) I have undergone - you know the ones that you retell stories about? - are the ones that were very hard to accomplish - where your back was up against the wall and you had to perform. More often than not - it works out. And even then - its usually a great story.

^yup

Maybe figure out what job you would apply to right now if you were retired. Would you apply for this job? This job with some parts removed? If you would apply for this job, think of a number you'd feel is worth it to you then add 20% to it and put it into the orally delivered message below to your boss.

"Boss, I'm just not interested in xyz any more. I'll do just x & y, but my compensation needs to move to $$$$$$$$$ at this point. I understand if that isn't something that makes sense on the business end, and I come to you satisfied with going our separate ways with a long set of happy memories to look back on if that's the case."


 - no. I would not reapply - immediately. I am not saying I would never go back - but it is soul sucking to some degree.
Your proposed quote is a good idea - but is not really my style and something that I owuld feel tied to if I did offer and they then accepted. Eeeesh.


Important to remember it is not a binary choice. Some questions I'd have:


Does your 2.5% WR account for insurance and any other work related benefits you may want to replace?

What if you did the job, but didn't put in any extra effort?

What if you took the job down to half time?

Would a frank conversation with the leadership team produce another option?

Is there protected leave you might qualify for, to give things a dry run? FMLA. Sabbatical. Unpaid leave due to Covid. Etc.

Yes - the 2.5% accounts for the Health Insurance - which I have already mapped out through seattlecyclone's guidance.
As for your last question - funny you should mention this. I am in the midst of doing it right now. Kinda - sorta. I am recovering from a surgery where I am using Short Term Disability - for 80% of my time. And I have to say I like it. Although I am in pain through this recovery - I am more social with neighbors, more engaged with my family, commiserating more with my (much older) retired friends, cooking more at home, playing more games with the boys. I love it. And once I get better - I am planning on brewing beer in the summer, and getting more outside playing time. So - although I am still getting paid - this dry run as it were is awesome.

Truly grateful for these responses - they really do help me work this out.
I will likely go internalize this and work out these scenarios in my mind while trying to sleep at 2am.

... at least I can run this by the Mrs - since I will see her tomorrow afternoon.

TomTX

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2021, 03:29:09 PM »

Maybe I have built the skills and confidence along the way to warrant it - but still, I feel like I am trading a big flaky donut for a dusty old door stop.

Donuts are bad for your health.

2.5%WR is insanely conservative.

You're fine.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2021, 03:42:40 PM »
You mention that you feel that you'd be letting your team down if you left this year.  Is there a time in the future, or a set of conditions that you can bring about, where your departure wouldn't let your team down?  If no, then just leave now. If there's a way for you to make a more graceful exit, then by all means make it so.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2021, 03:57:37 PM »

Donuts are bad for your health.


What??? no way.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2021, 07:01:26 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 07:03:28 AM by Much Fishing to Do »

Metalcat

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2021, 07:12:49 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?

Planning to never retire will increase your chances of having more money, but it will lower your chances of succeeding at FIRE, because one had to actually succeed at RETIRING in order to do that.

Again, if someone's ideal retirement includes paid work done on their own terms, then have at it. But if the work is not instrumental to that ideal life, then their FIRE has failed BIG TIME.

Abe Froman

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2021, 07:48:41 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?

No. Success is not working another year - at least in this fashion. Success for me is freedom of my time.
The ability to go drive to another state to help a family member - just because they need it. That kind of thing.
Its exhilarating and scary at the same time - isn't it?

I also have a hang-up, well really a daddy issue, that drives me as well  - let me explain. Saving you from the storied background of issues I have had with my father - sufficed to say that I have always tried to be better than him in everything - to prove possibly to myself that I would not be relegated to his life issues, that I would not be handcuffed with marital, financial, and social issues he has. To that end - I have a list in my head that I have regularly checked off - ever since I left home at 18. These range from trivial things like playing this sport better than him? YES, I won regional tournaments. Keeping a marriage longer than him - YES, still on my 1st - not 3rd. Have supporting friends and (other side of) family - YES.

My biggest check on that list - is financial, and retiring relatively early. He worked until he could not anymore, after making a lifetime of what I think were awful financial decisions - and I feel sorry for him some - but not sorry as well. Maybe its proving to him that I can not just survive but thrive after what we had been through. So - part of this is is why success also means retiring before 50 for me.

</heavy stuff> I might have jack knifed the conversation with that one - LOL.



Metalcat

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2021, 07:52:37 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?

No. Success is not working another year - at least in this fashion. Success for me is freedom of my time.
The ability to go drive to another state to help a family member - just because they need it. That kind of thing.
Its exhilarating and scary at the same time - isn't it?

I also have a hang-up, well really a daddy issue, that drives me as well  - let me explain. Saving you from the storied background of issues I have had with my father - sufficed to say that I have always tried to be better than him in everything - to prove possibly to myself that I would not be relegated to his life issues, that I would not be handcuffed with marital, financial, and social issues he has. To that end - I have a list in my head that I have regularly checked off - ever since I left home at 18. These range from trivial things like playing this sport better than him? YES, I won regional tournaments. Keeping a marriage longer than him - YES, still on my 1st - not 3rd. Have supporting friends and (other side of) family - YES.

My biggest check on that list - is financial, and retiring relatively early. He worked until he could not anymore, after making a lifetime of what I think were awful financial decisions - and I feel sorry for him some - but not sorry as well. Maybe its proving to him that I can not just survive but thrive after what we had been through. So - part of this is is why success also means retiring before 50 for me.

</heavy stuff> I might have jack knifed the conversation with that one - LOL.

What I'm hearing from this is that you've engineered your entire life around what your father did with his.
In a way, you've commemorated his life with yours.

CodingHare

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2021, 09:28:05 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?

No. Success is not working another year - at least in this fashion. Success for me is freedom of my time.
The ability to go drive to another state to help a family member - just because they need it. That kind of thing.
Its exhilarating and scary at the same time - isn't it?

I also have a hang-up, well really a daddy issue, that drives me as well  - let me explain. Saving you from the storied background of issues I have had with my father - sufficed to say that I have always tried to be better than him in everything - to prove possibly to myself that I would not be relegated to his life issues, that I would not be handcuffed with marital, financial, and social issues he has. To that end - I have a list in my head that I have regularly checked off - ever since I left home at 18. These range from trivial things like playing this sport better than him? YES, I won regional tournaments. Keeping a marriage longer than him - YES, still on my 1st - not 3rd. Have supporting friends and (other side of) family - YES.

My biggest check on that list - is financial, and retiring relatively early. He worked until he could not anymore, after making a lifetime of what I think were awful financial decisions - and I feel sorry for him some - but not sorry as well. Maybe its proving to him that I can not just survive but thrive after what we had been through. So - part of this is is why success also means retiring before 50 for me.

</heavy stuff> I might have jack knifed the conversation with that one - LOL.

I think it's pretty common to see what your parents did and either agree with an emulate it or wholesale reject it.  Sounds like whether you retire or not you'll have avoid what you see as mistakes your dad made.  Something I learned from my own troubles with my parents: The best revenge is living well.

ericrugiero

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2021, 11:44:11 AM »

I mean worst case - I could always go water flowers at Home Depot - right?

There was a lot in your post I totally get and I think is very common.  But then this sentence sticks out.  You really don't think you have enough to pull the trigger and may be setting yourself up for a bleak financial future?

I think you need to step back and look at your choices big picture.  Could something happen that destroys your retirement plan?  Of course it could, economic destruction, largest market crash ever, etc are of course possible.  But that's not the point, the point is would working another lets say year or two prevent or greatly reduce this possibility?  Without even knowing your numbers I'd say no way can someone with a 2.5%SWR really strengthen their portfolio that much by one year of income (and not near as much as making some small adjustments in spending over the next number of decades would do).  And the idea of keeping your job so you still have it if and when this crash happens?  Well it seems extremely improbable that destruction would happen to happen in the next year as opposed to one of the following many decades, and if that does happen why in the world do you think you'd get to keep that job and not get laid off then anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let the remote possibility of failure make you keep working a job for a time that wouldn't prevent that failure anyway.  Now planning to never retire probably would significantly increase you chance of success, but are you really considering that option?

No. Success is not working another year - at least in this fashion. Success for me is freedom of my time.
The ability to go drive to another state to help a family member - just because they need it. That kind of thing.
Its exhilarating and scary at the same time - isn't it?

I also have a hang-up, well really a daddy issue, that drives me as well  - let me explain. Saving you from the storied background of issues I have had with my father - sufficed to say that I have always tried to be better than him in everything - to prove possibly to myself that I would not be relegated to his life issues, that I would not be handcuffed with marital, financial, and social issues he has. To that end - I have a list in my head that I have regularly checked off - ever since I left home at 18. These range from trivial things like playing this sport better than him? YES, I won regional tournaments. Keeping a marriage longer than him - YES, still on my 1st - not 3rd. Have supporting friends and (other side of) family - YES.

My biggest check on that list - is financial, and retiring relatively early. He worked until he could not anymore, after making a lifetime of what I think were awful financial decisions - and I feel sorry for him some - but not sorry as well. Maybe its proving to him that I can not just survive but thrive after what we had been through. So - part of this is is why success also means retiring before 50 for me.

</heavy stuff> I might have jack knifed the conversation with that one - LOL.

I think it's pretty common to see what your parents did and either agree with an emulate it or wholesale reject it.  Sounds like whether you retire or not you'll have avoid what you see as mistakes your dad made.  Something I learned from my own troubles with my parents: The best revenge is living well.

True.  Learn what you can from your parents mistakes (or things they did well) but don't let their failings drive you to the point where it impacts your happiness. 

Regarding the decision to retire, the power is ALL YOURS.  If you want to retire, 2.5% withdraw is about as safe as it gets.  For that to fail, chances are society is falling apart or we have lost a war and are all speaking Chinese.  There isn't a big risk change from 2.5% to 1%.  If you want to work, figure out what you can tolerate and let your supervisors know.  Part time?  Reduced meetings?  No stupid projects?  Figure out what you want and ask for it.  Worst case is they fire you and that might be best anyway.  You would have plenty of time to find another job if you decide that's what you want. 

edit:  it sounds like you have some good people working for you.  If you retire, that could open up a path for one of them to be promoted.  I've seen a lot of great people retire and none of them have been irreplaceable.  I'm not irreplaceable and I would bet a lot of money you aren't either.  Don't let that hold you back.  Train them, set them up to succeed, have a good transition plan (if you want) and then don't feel guilty. 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 11:47:35 AM by ericrugiero »

nirodha

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2021, 12:27:21 PM »
You've solved the money problem. You've given it a dry run. That checks out too.

What's left? Does it help to look at your risk of death vs. the money running out?

https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/?spend=50000&initsav=2000000&age=47&yrs=50&stockpct=60&bondpct=40&cashpct=0&sex=0&infl=1&taxrate=15&fees=0.1&income=0&incstart=70&incend=100&expense=0&expstart=50&expend=70&showdeath=1&showlow=1&show2x=1&show5x=1&flexpct=0&spendthreshold=100&mort=best

The work relationships will probably fade away once you leave. Is the price of that loss too high?

Is working providing a sense purpose, one you are afraid cannot be replaced?

Is your ego prepared for the loss of status? You won't be important anymore.


I stopped about 6 weeks ago, after taking a 12 week FMLA last year. That last one - the lost of status, took me by surprise. For so long, people would seek my approval at work, do exactly as I asked. It was an unassailable part of my identity. I never considered it going away. It was gone half way through my 4 week notice period.

I prefer the person I am becoming, but it has definitely been an adjustment.

Abe Froman

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2021, 08:30:41 AM »
You've solved the money problem. You've given it a dry run. That checks out too.

What's left? Does it help to look at your risk of death vs. the money running out?

https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/?spend=50000&initsav=2000000&age=47&yrs=50&stockpct=60&bondpct=40&cashpct=0&sex=0&infl=1&taxrate=15&fees=0.1&income=0&incstart=70&incend=100&expense=0&expstart=50&expend=70&showdeath=1&showlow=1&show2x=1&show5x=1&flexpct=0&spendthreshold=100&mort=best

The work relationships will probably fade away once you leave. Is the price of that loss too high?

Is working providing a sense purpose, one you are afraid cannot be replaced?

Is your ego prepared for the loss of status? You won't be important anymore.


I stopped about 6 weeks ago, after taking a 12 week FMLA last year. That last one - the lost of status, took me by surprise. For so long, people would seek my approval at work, do exactly as I asked. It was an unassailable part of my identity. I never considered it going away. It was gone half way through my 4 week notice period.

I prefer the person I am becoming, but it has definitely been an adjustment.




chris' chart at engaging-data is truly simple and remarkable. It has nudged me - or at least confirmed for me that I can do it. And that at age 80 - chances of death outweigh chances of >1x and >2x.

Some work relationships I will miss - but this last year has shown me that those contacts who are important - will stay connected through phone, email, silly texts, etc.

Loss of purpose? .... no. I realize in my job I am not curing cancer - and it is what it is, a means to an end of saving money really. Purpose with passion is not there, never really was - and I accepted that.

Status? no. I never really was a status guy. Its nice when people ask for support - guidance, but I dont think I need that. I see others around me who do, and peacock around in various ways. Being unimportant is fine by me. I think its time for me to work on me, and I have seen that the electronic tether of email - work email - maybe its just the work....the 'I have to be available' requirement .... is what bothers me.

I prefer the person I am becoming - who were you? who are you becoming? I am seriously interested - as I am wondering about the process and how I will change when I actually pull the plug and decompress after FIRE. I think in ways - FIREing forces you to really look in the mirror.

nirodha

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2021, 08:36:45 PM »
I prefer the person I am becoming - who were you? who are you becoming? I am seriously interested - as I am wondering about the process and how I will change when I actually pull the plug and decompress after FIRE. I think in ways - FIREing forces you to really look in the mirror.

For me personally - it is very easy to derive purpose from the urgency of work. An ever increasing net worth becomes the indicator of my value. Since the productivity treadmill only accelerates, work defines more and more of how I live. Always - "do more, better". The best hours of my week consistently go to the job, leaving scraps for my home life.

The obvious benefit of stopping, my best hours are now mine.

The unexpected - workplace culture defined who I am as a person. If I thought I could do 10 things in a day, I'd try to do 11. If my wife was talking too long, I'd start doing something in parallel with her conversation. When I put the time in to exercise, it needed to be at 100% effort, until I was wrecked. If someone made a mistake, I wouldn't be happy until the mistake was fixed, they knew it was wrong, and it could never possibly happen again.

Living that way is idealized in corporate America. Without continual reinforcement from work, much of it is fading. I am losing the constant sense that I am inadequate. There is no ongoing competition with my peers, no race to see who is going to fall behind and fail the team first. I no longer lay in bed ruminating on (impossible) work problems, waiting to pass out from exhausting myself.

Instead - I am doing much less in a day, but am often fully present. The calendar and clock aren't dictating my life. My productivity is way down. I am happier for it. I was in a state of constant stress, but in denial to the degree of the problem. It is enough to live my simple life. That sense is incredibly freeing.

This emerged when I took FMLA last year. In a matter of days, what I can only describe as euphoria set in. It faded as the return to work approached. I started to dread re-entering corporate culture, but resolved to remember how I'd been living. I made my best effort to preserve that perspective. I tried to form new work boundaries. The effort was an utter failure. Knowing what life could be, I was out of there 2 months later.

Having stopped permanently, it's now clear my ego was still anchored on status afforded by my position and salary. It's funny, because I would never self-describe as a person who values those things. By any outwards appearances, I do not.

Yet, I had internalized work success as the measure of life success. Letting that go is good for me. It's taking some time. I still find myself drifting to ideas for getting money - how I can both not work and see the net worth grow? I wonder - Maybe it was just a bad job for me, and a new place would be different? Etc.

There is a constant temptation to return to the old way. Due to work being my top priority for decades, it is what I am best at. My personal development is heavily imbalanced. I can barely put air in my car tires, but I am a great employee.

Fearing sequence of returns risk, I've purposefully taken 18 months living expenses as cash, to give all those thoughts time to evolve. I want to discover who I am without a job. If I take on something new, I want it to nurture that person. I wouldn't view new work as a failure, but a return to that old lifestyle would be very disappointing.

fishnfool

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2021, 11:14:14 PM »
Life is too short. If you know you can retire now, why wait?   GO FOR IT!

Linea_Norway

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Re: Damned if I do - damned if I don't...
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2021, 09:03:35 AM »
When one of my coworkers left to take another job, I felt a bit left down, as I often worked with him. But we got a very good replacement and things worked out after that. When I left myself (to FIRE), I also felt letting my coworkers down. But as I had a mandatory 3 month notice period, I didn't feel too guilty. One of my coworkers was summing up for the team how many replacements they would need to replace me. I told them that those replacements (at least some of them) could be hired as consultants. Me leaving would not be the end of the world. I also wanted to save my own health, as I had become very stressed about working as a high achiever.

You are saying that you love your 80% disbled period for the freedom it gives. That is what being FIREd means. Please do so. Then you can spend your time on your own choice of things.