Author Topic: Cybersocialism  (Read 2479 times)

GuyTheJester

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Cybersocialism
« on: June 23, 2018, 09:37:46 AM »
Hello all,
I wanted to open up a discussion about a concept that has been fermenting in my mind for quite some time. Before going into the details, I wanted to share some realizations that I feel I worded out recently after experiencing different lifestyles (in Northern Europe, Kibbutz & Urban Kibbutz in Israel, Africa & USA).

I think that one of the key things that we missed on Human Happiness in our current western society is The Community.
Having a community, or a rather big circle of close friends (that does not need to schedule an appointment to come and "hang out") is paramount to human happiness.

Moreover, it makes Economic Sense. Especially when considering factors such as Raising Children. In some parts of our earth, the concept of two parents raising children by their own in an isolated manner, like happens in most of the big Western cities, would appear insane. In a community lifestyle, there is less pressure on the parents since the child will be occupied in the roaming group of community kids his age (making up games and entertaining themselves), and when required to do the parenting jobs it is most of the time shared between the other members of the community.
 
The concept I am thinking of is creating a community that is like an Urban Kibbutz, and oriented at big Western cities. It consists an highrise building (similar to the notorious urban Condos), where all the households are part of the Community. Each household will pay a Fixed Rate of monthly payment based on their number, and in return will get all the necessities required to live (Health, Transportation, Education, Water, Heating, Groceries & Internet).
All the excess money will be Invested or used to purchase Shared Luxuries based on what the community members vote to do.
All of that will be managed through software based interfaces with the lowest amount of "Human Touch" as possible.
The pros for the above:
1.   Why big Western cities? A lot of humans choose to live in big Western cities due to the cultural experiences, work & education possibilities. Where many humans are concentrated, there are more options for Art, Education, Culture etc. However, since these are places that are concentrated with a lot of individuals, acting together as a community makes the most economical sense, mainly due to the ability of having Shared Buying Power. I believe that with Shared Buying Power, it is possible to achieve financially feasible lifestyles in the Big Cities, thus gaining the Big Cities pros without its obvious con of Cost of Living. Imagine for example haggling a price for Services (Internet, Health, Insurance, Education) and Materials (Groceries, Cars) when you are representing a "big client" of 50 families instead your own single family, and what will be the savings in the long run.
2.   Why Fixed Rate? The main problem why the Kibbutz & Other social movements failed is that the money that went into the Community was progressive rate based on your salary (like Taxes). This created a Crack over time where high earning families (who feel like they are the "hard working people") were funding low earning families (who they saw as "Lazy"). I believe that due to the Human Nature, in order for it to work in the long run it is better to have a Fixed Rate per family, and after the Fixed Rate is paid, if the family wishes to indulge in conspicuous consumption with their extras they are free to do so (without forcing them to share it with the community).
3.   Insource talent -  Everything that can be insourced from the community members, will be done low cost/free (and willingly) from the members. if one person is an accountant, electrician, IT, Dentist etc, they can give their services to the community in low cost/free.
4.   So what happens with all the money? All the leftover money will be invested. The investments will ideally include buying local businesses that are close to the community, and ideally provide services to the community as well for free/low cost (i.e buying the local grocery store, that will continue to operate normally and provide income, but community members can buy everything there for 70% discount).
5.   Shared Luxuries – Luxuries such as Gym, Music & Art shows, Parties/events are much more fun (and economical) when shared. The concept is to either buy or build from scratch a business that sells these services but for the community members it will be free (or almost free). The community can decide to buy the local Gym, or live music venue etc…
6.   Shared Cars – The community purchases cars, which are free to reserve to the members anytime they want.

So why Computers? In other past social experiments, the Clerical caste got too much power since its position to determine allocation of community resources. For example, who gets the Car on Sunday. In this scenario, a human, that is driven by emotions, needs to decide that, which often resulted in either black market (I can make sure the car is yours on Sunday for extra cash), Nepotism and personal rivalry (I hate this guy personally no way he will get the car on Sunday).

Interestingly enough, I don’t know of any socialist experiment that was controlled by Computers. With the right management software, every person will be able to Vote on each Community Decision directly, view everything in the community (with most notably "where the money goes to") with complete transparency, and "reserve" every shared community resource with a click of a button. As opposed to other socialist tryouts, once everything is completely transparent and decisions are made directly by each person (not through Representatives), we might see a different outcome.

I gave this the fancy name of Cybersocialism.

What I am still contemplating is what will be the social glue that will produce Social Solidarity between the community members. Giving your material (money) to the community involves a lot of risk for the individual. Social Solidarity was usually glued by ideology (For example a Kibbutz), relatively similar homogeneous population (For example the Social System in the Nordic Countries works because the average Scandinavian doesn’t believe that the guy next door is a total asshole that tries to leech him out of his tax money and be "lazy", but they are rather "similar" after all and if "they win" then "I win") or shared struggle (For example a community/ghetto of immigrants in a big city, that stick together and form all sorts of economical/social bondages that are similar to the above).

Perhaps MMM type of people who went through the shared struggle of achieving FI and are also very Financial Aware, will be a strong enough glue to form such a community?

I would like to hear your opinions

Yours,
The Jester
   

swampwiz

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 03:18:51 PM »
And a Rational Economic Actor would look at this deal and ask himself if he would be coming out ahead or behind by joining this commune.  The folks that would be coming out ahead would join in while the folks coming out behind would pass, thereby raising the costs.  This is the reason that ObamaRomneyHeritageCare has "failed" for folks not getting uncle Sam's backstop premium tax credit.

Syonyk

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2018, 12:11:32 AM »
Interesting concept.  Almost certainly likely to be an exciting exercise in emergent failure methods if tried, and feels like the result of playing a bit much SimCity, with a focus on Arcology towers.

"Shared Luxuries"?  Really? o.O

I think that one of the key things that we missed on Human Happiness in our current western society is The Community.
Having a community, or a rather big circle of close friends (that does not need to schedule an appointment to come and "hang out") is paramount to human happiness.

I'd agree for sure here.  We've mistaken "online friends" for actual human interaction, and the results have been very poor.  Humans do not scale.  The whole "global community" rubbish doesn't work.  At this point, we have enough data to demonstrate this, but, hey, it's a popular misconception.

Quote
Moreover, it makes Economic Sense. Especially when considering factors such as Raising Children. In some parts of our earth, the concept of two parents raising children by their own in an isolated manner, like happens in most of the big Western cities, would appear insane. In a community lifestyle, there is less pressure on the parents since the child will be occupied in the roaming group of community kids his age (making up games and entertaining themselves), and when required to do the parenting jobs it is most of the time shared between the other members of the community.

Eeenh... This, it depends.  I'll agree that in a community lifestyle, raising kids is probably easier, but it depends, very heavily, on the nature of the community.  If it's a culturally and religiously homogenous community, absolutely.  If not, it becomes a lot more complex, and I don't think a random mix of people, thrown together, will benefit from this.  Quite a few people have a particular lifestyle they wish to teach their children, and I'm not convinced that if you had a group of, say, Evangelical Christians in a building with the leading edge of the LGBTQ+++++ movement, you'd have much synergy in child raising.  Historically, the only groups like you're describing that actually worked were monasteries and nunneries. 
 
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All of that will be managed through software based interfaces with the lowest amount of "Human Touch" as possible.

Translation: "Those who grok hacking will have the most say."

Quote
Imagine for example haggling a price for Services (Internet, Health, Insurance, Education) and Materials (Groceries, Cars) when you are representing a "big client" of 50 families instead your own single family, and what will be the savings in the long run.

"Hey, fuck you, y'all buy individual services, or you don't get service."

I'm skeptical that the savings here you handwave at will actually exist.

Quote
3.   Insource talent -  Everything that can be insourced from the community members, will be done low cost/free (and willingly) from the members. if one person is an accountant, electrician, IT, Dentist etc, they can give their services to the community in low cost/free.

History would indicate that expecting "From all according to their ability, to all according to their need" is not a useful strategy.  If I had some skill I could use externally for, say, $100/hr, why would I donate that freely to all who needed it?  You'll get a few true believers who will do that, but evidence indicates you'll find yourself lacking for skilled labor in the community in a hurry, short of a religious connection.  Again, monasteries. 

Quote
6.   Shared Cars – The community purchases cars, which are free to reserve to the members anytime they want.

An electric bike fleet is an awful lot cheaper...

Quote
Interestingly enough, I don’t know of any socialist experiment that was controlled by Computers. With the right management software, every person will be able to Vote on each Community Decision directly, view everything in the community (with most notably "where the money goes to") with complete transparency, and "reserve" every shared community resource with a click of a button. As opposed to other socialist tryouts, once everything is completely transparent and decisions are made directly by each person (not through Representatives), we might see a different outcome.

"Everyone voting on everything" is pretty much mob rule.  Expect the most popular person in the community to get everything they want, and the weird outcast to get nothing.  Also, expect this to scale terribly, and a small percentage of the population to actually vote on most of the things coming up for vote.  You've basically invented the HOA from Hell.

Quote
What I am still contemplating is what will be the social glue that will produce Social Solidarity between the community members. Giving your material (money) to the community involves a lot of risk for the individual. Social Solidarity was usually glued by ideology (For example a Kibbutz)

Or religion...

Quote
relatively similar homogeneous population (For example the Social System in the Nordic Countries works because the average Scandinavian doesn’t believe that the guy next door is a total asshole that tries to leech him out of his tax money and be "lazy", but they are rather "similar" after all and if "they win" then "I win")

Per my understanding, it's more so because they're related to the person next door through a fairly simple path they can work out if they care.

Quote
Perhaps MMM type of people who went through the shared struggle of achieving FI and are also very Financial Aware, will be a strong enough glue to form such a community?

Unlikely.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2018, 08:08:19 AM »
Sebastian Junger explored similar concepts in his book "Tribe."  I highly recommend anyone interested in this type of thing give it a read.  It is super short...a one or two day read and really thought-provoking. 

I hate to even bring this up but I think your concept would be seen as a bit cult-like in the context of Western society.  I find myself craving community but would never join a community like the one you are describing.  I'm not crapping on your idea, I think it is a good one, just not for me.  My fear would be having the community spoiled by people I don't like or who don't share my same values.  If people are "paying in" then how to they get out when things go south?

I think for it to work you would definitely need to base it around a singular value system or community goal and the enforcement of these values would need to be extremely strict.  In my very limited study of tribal or highly-social societies, punishment for breaking community rules or value systems tends to involve violence (stoning in the streets etc).  Junger goes into why this is but it has to do with the flip side of extreme trust in your friends and neighbors.  I can't put my thoughts together any more than that this morning but maybe someone else can touch on that more.

GuyTheJester

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2018, 08:31:04 AM »
Interesting concept.  Almost certainly likely to be an exciting exercise in emergent failure methods if tried, and feels like the result of playing a bit much SimCity, with a focus on Arcology towers.

"Shared Luxuries"?  Really? o.O

I think that one of the key things that we missed on Human Happiness in our current western society is The Community.
Having a community, or a rather big circle of close friends (that does not need to schedule an appointment to come and "hang out") is paramount to human happiness.

I'd agree for sure here.  We've mistaken "online friends" for actual human interaction, and the results have been very poor.  Humans do not scale.  The whole "global community" rubbish doesn't work.  At this point, we have enough data to demonstrate this, but, hey, it's a popular misconception.

Agree!

Quote
Moreover, it makes Economic Sense. Especially when considering factors such as Raising Children. In some parts of our earth, the concept of two parents raising children by their own in an isolated manner, like happens in most of the big Western cities, would appear insane. In a community lifestyle, there is less pressure on the parents since the child will be occupied in the roaming group of community kids his age (making up games and entertaining themselves), and when required to do the parenting jobs it is most of the time shared between the other members of the community.

Eeenh... This, it depends.  I'll agree that in a community lifestyle, raising kids is probably easier, but it depends, very heavily, on the nature of the community.  If it's a culturally and religiously homogenous community, absolutely.  If not, it becomes a lot more complex, and I don't think a random mix of people, thrown together, will benefit from this.  Quite a few people have a particular lifestyle they wish to teach their children, and I'm not convinced that if you had a group of, say, Evangelical Christians in a building with the leading edge of the LGBTQ+++++ movement, you'd have much synergy in child raising.  Historically, the only groups like you're describing that actually worked were monasteries and nunneries. 

Fully agree, this is why you need a certain Social Glue.

Quote
All of that will be managed through software based interfaces with the lowest amount of "Human Touch" as possible.

Translation: "Those who grok hacking will have the most say."

Not sure this is the case, a well written software that sits offline and isolated on the premise and can be accessed only with dedicated terminals (for example tablets or aesthetic mini computers in each apartment) is not that easy to hack without investing extensive resources.

Quote
Imagine for example haggling a price for Services (Internet, Health, Insurance, Education) and Materials (Groceries, Cars) when you are representing a "big client" of 50 families instead your own single family, and what will be the savings in the long run.

"Hey, fuck you, y'all buy individual services, or you don't get service."

I'm skeptical that the savings here you handwave at will actually exist.

I believe that if you deal with local dealers, such as local ISPs and such it can work. And if you deal with the Corporates, you just get a quote on their Business 2 Business plan and dont act as an end consumer calling the sales line to get a quote. 

Quote
3.   Insource talent -  Everything that can be insourced from the community members, will be done low cost/free (and willingly) from the members. if one person is an accountant, electrician, IT, Dentist etc, they can give their services to the community in low cost/free.

History would indicate that expecting "From all according to their ability, to all according to their need" is not a useful strategy.  If I had some skill I could use externally for, say, $100/hr, why would I donate that freely to all who needed it?  You'll get a few true believers who will do that, but evidence indicates you'll find yourself lacking for skilled labor in the community in a hurry, short of a religious connection.  Again, monasteries. 

This is why Im not sure it should be entirely free. But this model is not that disconnected from reality. in modern Kibbutz, this is how it works. For example, a dentist has his own clinic and business, and makes money accepting all the regular clients, and sometimes when a member of the community comes, he will get it on a low cost or "on the house", since it's all "like family". I guess it depends on the size of the community (you wont be serving hundereds of people and you won't have time for your "regular business"), but if it's 50 families in a metro area I think it is reasonable.

Quote
6.   Shared Cars – The community purchases cars, which are free to reserve to the members anytime they want.

An electric bike fleet is an awful lot cheaper...

True!

Quote
Interestingly enough, I don’t know of any socialist experiment that was controlled by Computers. With the right management software, every person will be able to Vote on each Community Decision directly, view everything in the community (with most notably "where the money goes to") with complete transparency, and "reserve" every shared community resource with a click of a button. As opposed to other socialist tryouts, once everything is completely transparent and decisions are made directly by each person (not through Representatives), we might see a different outcome.

"Everyone voting on everything" is pretty much mob rule.  Expect the most popular person in the community to get everything they want, and the weird outcast to get nothing.  Also, expect this to scale terribly, and a small percentage of the population to actually vote on most of the things coming up for vote.  You've basically invented the HOA from Hell.

It's true that some charismatic political charaters will pop up and push their opinions. But I dont think it should be stopped, this is the human nature (and part of the fun is the heated debates on the future of the community). The concept is that if people can vote directly, it will be a "free market", and the market will balance itself if the people see that bad decisions were made to the community.

Quote
What I am still contemplating is what will be the social glue that will produce Social Solidarity between the community members. Giving your material (money) to the community involves a lot of risk for the individual. Social Solidarity was usually glued by ideology (For example a Kibbutz)

Or religion...

Yes religion is also a possibility.

Quote
relatively similar homogeneous population (For example the Social System in the Nordic Countries works because the average Scandinavian doesn’t believe that the guy next door is a total asshole that tries to leech him out of his tax money and be "lazy", but they are rather "similar" after all and if "they win" then "I win")

Per my understanding, it's more so because they're related to the person next door through a fairly simple path they can work out if they care.

The concept is that if we "feel" that the person next door can be trusted enough due to our Social Glue, we will be more willing to take the risk on doing reciprocal altruism.

Quote
Perhaps MMM type of people who went through the shared struggle of achieving FI and are also very Financial Aware, will be a strong enough glue to form such a community?

Unlikely.

SwordGuy

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2018, 09:04:25 AM »
3.   Insource talent -  Everything that can be insourced from the community members, will be done low cost/free (and willingly) from the members. if one person is an accountant, electrician, IT, Dentist etc, they can give their services to the community in low cost/free.


A rocket scientist would love this because no one is going to need their services.

An accountant would literally be giving away their much of their income (or all of their free time) because everyone could use their services.   


Toss this part of the idea.  It's as toxic to the plan as the hard worker/lazy folks issue you brought up.

Cranky

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Re: Cybersocialism
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2018, 10:33:57 AM »
I know of several groups like this, so it's not exactly a radically different concept. I warn you that it's pretty hard to resolve conflicts in such a group (and I've lived in a commune, and seen plenty of them struggle.)

You can, of course, just make good friends and get the same benefits in terms of childrearing and service trading.