Author Topic: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?  (Read 3944 times)

Psychstache

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Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« on: May 30, 2025, 05:54:35 PM »
Somewhat inspired by a post from another thread:

As someone who speaks to highly paid IT guys who have worked in IT 30-40 years on a regular basis, you may or may not be surprised to discover that a lot of these guys have virtually no money to their name because they spent it all.

Not even sure how it's physically possible to spend, say, $100k-$150k after tax in a year and leave nothing left over in savings. What would you even spend on?

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to ask though. Some of my acquaintances spend $80k a year ($50k USD) putting two kids through private school. Imagine spending that much money to prove to the world that your kids can't thrive in a normal environment and aren't smart enough to get into a gifted school.

It got me wondering about about the bolded as an idea of living paycheck to paycheck. In general, SO and I put aside a big chunk of our paychecks into pre-tax accounts, then we pay bills and buy stuff, and then another chunk is left over to go into post-tax/Roth/HSA accounts. I did some rough math and if we didn't do any pore-tax contributions, we would bring home around $12-13k a month, and I just can't even figure out how I would spend that on a regular basis. Maybe there could a some random month where we have a crazy vacation and blow out our spending (even then I don't think we are burning through the whole take home), but as just a run of the mill month of spending? I dunno. I don't have a monthly budget and I don't really restrain myself when it comes to buying stuff. I just don't really want a lot.

How about you? Could you shut it all down and join the masses in living paycheck to paycheck?*

*Really for those who are currently still employed and in the saving stage of FIRE.

Tasse

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2025, 06:09:29 PM »
The first month we'd buy the new gaming computer that my DH wants but acknowledges he doesn't need / doesn't fit our budget right now. And then the second month we'd look at each other in bafflement on how we would possibly repeat that spending level for months on end.

Actually, new idea. Right now we are travel hacking by pet sitting. I suppose we could eat up many thousands of dollars if we were doing this multi-month trip and actually paying for our lodging. We could also fly out here first class and then rent a car for the entire visit (we drove our car across the country). I don't imagine any of that would significantly improve our stay, but we sure could waste a lot of money. Maybe we could even manage to go into debt that we'd have to spend all our non-travel months paying off!

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2025, 06:19:26 PM »
I don't buy into the narrative that "most" people spend literally every penny they make. I suspect a lot of the polling data is vaguely falsified, that people report they're living "paycheck to paycheck" but neglect to mention that's after funding their 401k and their savings.

I certainly remember living "paycheck to paycheck" during grad school. Five years of living off $20k annually, that was a stretch. Every penny counted and I lived in fear of my car breaking down. When I got my first career job it was a massive relief and the very first thing I did was save as much as I possibly could.

As an adult, fertility related medical expenses make me appreciate how I can absolutely imagine people draining their savings, or spending all their income on a special needs child, or simply stretching to buy a house that's big enough for their children to thrive.

My household income is roughly 3x the median of the city I live in. We save about 60%, so really, it would be trivial to not save, it would just take a median income to match our median spending.

When I was young and single I (arrogantly) thought that anybody spending more than myself must be hugely wasteful. Now I understand how easy my life has been in general, and how much less lucky I could be.

This is why modern MMM is somewhat pedantic. There's no point in bragging about living off $40k as a single man with a paid off house. You spend $40k plus $30k of imputed rent, plus $20k of 401k contributions that don't have to happen plus $30k in taxes that aren't paid, congratulations, you're living the same lifestyle as a W2 employee making $110k, renting your house, saving for retirement, and paying taxes. That's hardly the epitome of frugality, that's just a life that's been significantly front-loaded. Efficient, yes, but hardly noble deprivation.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2025, 07:40:54 PM by VanillaGorilla »

Zikoris

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2025, 06:57:12 PM »
Our income fluctuates quite a bit, but last year we averaged about $7,600/month, and I have no idea how we would spend that much consistently within the constraints of reality. Like, I don't have a job where I can spend half the month vacationing every month, which would be the easiest thing to spend more money on. Most of the things a normal person would spend money on would be active downgrades for us. Restaurants? Cars? I would feel like shit eating restaurant food all the time, but that wouldn't last too long because I would be actively puking my guts out from motion sickness from having to spend time in a car in stop-and-go Vancouver traffic. Alcohol or coffee would likewise make me puke with no upside. I'd need blood pressure medication if I had to go shopping for clothing or whatever on a regular basis, because it just pisses me off that none of the stores ever have what I want.

I guess we could buy some sort of overpriced garbage housing (Vancouver condos), which would be probably pretty similar to the cheap place we rent now except we'd have more bullshit to deal with re: repairs, maintenance, etc.

Maybe full spa experiences every weekend? Or get a high-maintenance pet? Professional house cleaning? That would be about it, as far as spending on things that would actually be enjoyable.

Tyson

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2025, 07:53:35 PM »
Many people don't have an income problem.  They have a spending problem.  This is a dynamic that plays out to even very high income people. 

FIRE@50

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2025, 08:55:22 PM »
It would not be hard at all for me to drive a nicer car, play better golf courses, wear fancier watches, and drink better whiskey.

okits

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2025, 09:00:36 PM »
Sure, we could easily be paycheque to paycheque with one change:

simply stretching to buy a house that's big enough for their children to thrive.

Which is why we haven't done that.

Freedomin5

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2025, 11:28:33 PM »
I could live paycheck to paycheck. I’d just have to reduce the size of the paycheck.

I have a friend who makes 1/5 our household income. After paying for rent in a HCOL city, paying for her car repairs and gas, paying utilities, eating out every weekend, and charging two vacations to her credit card each year, she is definitely living paycheck to paycheck.

With our current income, I would need to hire a full-time ayi to cook, clean, and manage the house. I’d need to go on an expensive vacation every single holiday and only stay at five-star resorts, hire a private car and driver to take us around, and eat at Michelin-star restaurants. Oh, and hire a college consultant to get DD into a brand name college.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2025, 11:38:17 PM »
I could envision myself spending more or less than I do today, but living "paycheck to paycheck," where I had no savings to fall back on and could be forced to make major and immediate lifestyle changes at seemingly random times when my income changed for whatever reason...that's not something I would ever choose to do if I had an alternative.

ixtap

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2025, 11:54:00 PM »
I could certainly figure out how to spend more than we do. However, I have never lived as paycheck to paycheck as the folks around me. Even as a student supporting myself, I was able to float other students because I had an emergency fund. One "trick" I used during some of my hardest times was to live off two paychecks a month and save that third paycheck twice a year for the next emergency, which back then meant anything outside of my regular spending, as I had no sinking funds.

chasingthegoodlife

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2025, 11:58:08 PM »
If I ‘needed’ to spend it all for some reason? Easily!

I’d hire a garden helper, a weekly babysitter for fancy dates, give generously to all my favourite causes, and find more ways to support friends who are struggling.

vand

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2025, 12:58:22 AM »
Question presupposes that you are already making a paycheque.. there's a cohort of people not even or yet at that level who would love to live paycheque to paycheque..

twinstudy

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2025, 02:44:13 AM »
Sure, we could easily be paycheque to paycheque with one change:

simply stretching to buy a house that's big enough for their children to thrive.

Which is why we haven't done that.

I have no issue with people buying a big lavish house if that's what they want, but to suggest that a big house is necessary for children to thrive is a stretch. I have lived in a big 4BR, three storey house as well as a small 2BR flat, and I was equally happy in both. And plenty of families in Asia and parts of Europe do well in smaller dwellings.


2sk22

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2025, 03:13:37 AM »
Many people don't have an income problem.  They have a spending problem.  This is a dynamic that plays out to even very high income people.

Indeed - if you listen to the Ramit Sethi podcast, you can get a glimpse into that kind of obsessive spending!

AuspiciousEight

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2025, 04:36:26 AM »
I'm not sure what I would even spend the money on at this point...

I guess I could cash out the stocks and buy a 2 million dollar house and some sports cars. But if I paid cash for the house I would still need to find a way to spend 10 grand a month after tax. I guess I could start taking vacations to Europe every other month or develop some sort of drinking problem....idk, doesn't seem fun to me...

GilesMM

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2025, 06:52:48 AM »
We were frugal (at times too frugal perhaps) while working but have had to learn to open the flood gates a bit in retirement.  We are spending 2-3x what we spent pre-retirement and while it's not our nature, it is not that hard.  We still use digital coupons at Safeway and shop on Tuesday.  But I just bought a used car that cost more than our first house.  The warranty alone cost twice what my first car cost. We donate quite a bit more than my starting salary each year.  It all adds up!


Or you can look at this controversial old bit: https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-year-high-income-earners-struggling/

JupiterGreen

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2025, 07:33:24 AM »
I could envision myself spending more or less than I do today, but living "paycheck to paycheck," where I had no savings to fall back on and could be forced to make major and immediate lifestyle changes at seemingly random times when my income changed for whatever reason...that's not something I would ever choose to do if I had an alternative.

This is where I fall. I grew up in poverty and it was a struggle to pull out of that so like @ixtap I started saving and being frugal early. I have never really lived beyond my means. Occasionally there were months when things have been tight, but I never let it get out of control. And I'll also attribute it to good luck that I never got into a bad medical debt situation, long or short term disability, or something else like that. My partner did once unexpectedly lose a job, but was able to get another so it didn't interfere much with our finances.

In some ways we do live paycheck to paycheck now with a giant Efund, since everything is accounted for it's just the money gets siphoned to various accounts and earmarked for specific things.     

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2025, 07:58:41 AM »
Could I do it when I was making $36k/year out of college? Absolutely. With my previous income + DH's previous income? We'd have to be giving away a huge chunk every month to make it work. On the random month where we do a big trip or have a huge house project? Sure, but not every month. But, our shared income was in the very high outlier territory, so it feels a little silly to compare ourselves to people making a realistic wage where we live.

DS19 works full time this summer, and one of his coworkers is not a college student & it's his full time job. He makes $20/hr, 40 hrs/week. He also has a second job. He & DH19 spoke about his budget. Majority goes to rent (shared apartment), an inexpensive car, and food. He also sends some money back to his family in his country of origin, but it is still tight.

It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison, and seems unfair to ask whether we could have spent the incredibly high salaries we were making vs someone making $20/hr in a very HCOL area.

Tasse

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2025, 08:09:21 AM »
It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison, and seems unfair to ask whether we could have spent the incredibly high salaries we were making vs someone making $20/hr in a very HCOL area.

I totally agree this is an unfair comparison. I didn't really read the OP as trying to make that comparison, just asking the humorous question of how you'd even spend it all if you weren't allowed to save anything.

reeshau

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2025, 08:17:24 AM »
Could I imagine how people would be set up to do this in my area?  Yes, easily.

A large mortgage for a "prestigious" address in a good (read absolute best, by whatever standard) school district
Two leased vehicles, plus a third for weekend fun.  At least one, and possibly all 3, are a giant truck.
Two kids, with their day care and after-school activities
Season tickets / club membership / professional development
travelling based on the school schedule, which is always surge priced
Private school, even though you spent to be in an amazing school district
Saving up for a big name school, maybe your alma mater.  Extra prep and activities to increase chances for said school
Dining at the latest fancy place.  There always seems to be more.

My area is the kind of striving area where the after Christmas sale starts two days before Christmas.  (I'm not kidding)  If you want a hot Halloween costume for your kid, you better have shopped in September.

It also is one of the few places in Houston with trees.  Lots of trees.  So, it was the closest thing to Ireland that we could find.  And, fortunately, enough people who do not strive in the ways above for us to have found a lot of friends.  Even if not quite Mustachian, they boggle at the externally-driven consumption that goes on.

AerynLee

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2025, 08:23:24 AM »
Hm, quick math says that's about $12k/month with no savings. I think even if we bought the most house we could "afford" and each had a car payment more in line with what you'd expect a pair of DINKs earning ~$100k each we'd still have a lot left over. I hate shopping and don't want the aesthetic treatments (hair & nails, etc) that you think of women wasting money on so those are out. Add in a housekeeper, a lawncare service, lunches and dinners out most days I supposed we could spend it all.

Or I could buy the beautiful but neglected brick Queen Anne I have saved on Zillow and pour every penny into it. That would do it

svosavvy

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2025, 08:57:58 AM »
It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison, and seems unfair to ask whether we could have spent the incredibly high salaries we were making vs someone making $20/hr in a very HCOL area.

I totally agree this is an unfair comparison. I didn't really read the OP as trying to make that comparison, just asking the humorous question of how you'd even spend it all if you weren't allowed to save anything.
I like Tasse's take here.  I wonder if you mixed it with effective altruism which I know was a big mustache topic a few years back.  If you effectively were able to take your consumption up to the threshold of diminishing returns and dump the excess into a pet altruism project.  I can always buy more premium products for my life and have classically bought "value" not necessarily "cheap." 

There was a Seth Godin interview with I want to say Tim Ferriss a couple years back about product quality/consistency vs rarity.  In other words a brand new performance Toyota was as dependable or more than a brand new like 700 series or whatever Mercedes.  I just don't ever see myself enjoying "things" that are a metric of what I have vs what you don't and that is all they got going for them.  However, a new Toyota vs a 25 year old one will increase my happiness.

Back when DW and I were paychecking it our SR was 50-60% consistently for twenty years or so.  Honestly, I feel like our spending is already up there, but, I could see a 25% spend increase on what we already use before I just couldn't find product that was realistically better.  Take the remaining surplus and directly invest into some type of altruism.  For me it couldn't be blind giving, but, givewell is compelling.  It would have to be hands on for me.  A proverbial: provide a person with a meal instead of flicking $20 at them to go away. 

svosavvy

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2025, 09:16:06 AM »
A big part of being able to save 50%+ of paycheck was that we were health lottery winners.  For which I am thankful.  As mentioned above many aren't.  Feels like a good way to discourage participation in capitalism is to take health lottery losers and economically grind them to dust.  Just sayin'

Psychstache

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2025, 09:20:18 AM »
It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison, and seems unfair to ask whether we could have spent the incredibly high salaries we were making vs someone making $20/hr in a very HCOL area.

I totally agree this is an unfair comparison. I didn't really read the OP as trying to make that comparison, just asking the humorous question of how you'd even spend it all if you weren't allowed to save anything.

Pretty much this. Obviously some people are in structurally challenging situations and some are just low to mid earners where this thought exercise doesn't work. I was imagining those in circumstances similar to me, high income where you are comfortably spending and saving, but now you can only spend.

markpst

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2025, 10:18:01 AM »
Could I? Yes, if I had to. Share an apartment, heck even share a room. Cut out all unnecessary expenditures, find a way to make some extra money.

However, I am so adverse to the thought of doing so, I could not do so if I have the means to avoid this. So, in the sense of 'wasting' money with the confidence that it will all work itself out next week and in the future, absolutely not. That would completely stress me out!

k290

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2025, 10:48:53 AM »
One or two posts in this thread seem to vastly underestimate the number of people earning low wages and barely getting by. Only a subset of blue collar work pays well, and most earn a fraction of salaried knowledge work jobs
« Last Edit: May 31, 2025, 11:01:30 AM by k290 »

okits

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2025, 11:03:58 AM »
Sure, we could easily be paycheque to paycheque with one change:

simply stretching to buy a house that's big enough for their children to thrive.

Which is why we haven't done that.

I have no issue with people buying a big lavish house if that's what they want, but to suggest that a big house is necessary for children to thrive is a stretch. I have lived in a big 4BR, three storey house as well as a small 2BR flat, and I was equally happy in both. And plenty of families in Asia and parts of Europe do well in smaller dwellings.

That's not what it says.  It says "a house that's big enough for their children to thrive".  There are homes that are too small for the number of inhabitants living there.  The opposite doesn't necessarily have to be big and lavish.

GilesMM

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2025, 11:43:27 AM »
Sure, we could easily be paycheque to paycheque with one change:

simply stretching to buy a house that's big enough for their children to thrive.

Which is why we haven't done that.

I have no issue with people buying a big lavish house if that's what they want, but to suggest that a big house is necessary for children to thrive is a stretch. I have lived in a big 4BR, three storey house as well as a small 2BR flat, and I was equally happy in both. And plenty of families in Asia and parts of Europe do well in smaller dwellings.

That's not what it says.  It says "a house that's big enough for their children to thrive".  There are homes that are too small for the number of inhabitants living there.  The opposite doesn't necessarily have to be big and lavish.

The average home size in Tokyo or Seoul is about 700 sq ft and yet their kids thrive.

catccc

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2025, 12:30:21 PM »
I think there’s some research out there that indicates families in smaller homes are happier than those in larger homes, but I don’t recall the details of what constitutes small v large and how happiness was measured.

Our home is 2300 sqft. Not sure if that’s large, it’s all relative.


In the topic at hand, my family could easily spend $100-$150k annually.  We easily spend $80-$105K annually, but there are some big home maintenance and improvement expenses in there.




swashbucklinstache

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2025, 12:49:15 PM »
Just for fun.
  • My GF and I currently live in a 1050 sqft townhouse for $2300 a month. It is 35% under market rate in one of the most expensive but renter-friendly non-coastal markets.
  • I take home 10.2k a month if we ignore bonus, 401k match, and a 4 figure annual stock grant.
  • In the last 12 months I have spent $2450 a month so I need to spend $7750 more.

I'll ignore real but stupid local options, like buying a 2,000 sqft house with a 15.6k mortgage after 20% down or renting an 1800 sqft house for 12k a month.

  • My GF retires! Add $3500 a month to spending and new total is $5950
  • Rent a nicer 1100 sqft place closer to downtown like https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1155-Canyon-Blvd-SUITE-205-Boulder-CO-80302/81883838_zpid/ for $3700 a month. Add $1400 a month to spending and new total is $7350 leaving $2650 to make up.

    Having run out of things I would want to do without being worth 9 figures, we start getting dumb. Pick any one of the below.
  • How about a perfect gym bought at retail. Something like this could easily run 25k or 2.2k a month https://www.roguefitness.com/zeus-builder/project/173463025. Add some coaching and we're set for a year.
  • A local personal chef makes up to 8 servings of a single meal for $75 a session. $2650 pays for 35 of those a month.
  • A personal chauffeur charges $45 an hour here. I'm not in a car anywhere near the 60 hours a month I could get but maybe a retired GF wants to travel more.
  • We live in Colorado so we each need fully decked out Ford Lightning trucks. At 88k fully loaded that's $814 a month each.

Simple housing and health needs + no kids means you really have to try pretty hard with a relatively large income (I'm about 1.6x local median household income).

GuitarStv

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2025, 04:00:37 PM »
I do live paycheck to paycheck.

Food, property tax, electricity, water, toiletries, gas, and investments.


After that there's never anything left to spend.

Psychstache

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2025, 04:59:15 PM »
I do live paycheck to paycheck.

Food, property tax, electricity, water, toiletries, gas, and investments.


After that there's never anything left to spend.

Such a "if I could have one wish granted I would wish for infinite wishes" response. You're better than that Steve.

Loren Ver

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2025, 05:03:31 PM »
So I actually would sit down with people that were going through more than their paychecks and trying to help them out by their request.  One of the biggest issues was debt.  When you have bad credit you get hit with terrible 16%!!! or higher rates.  When you start hitting those types of numbers you are nearly paying for everything twice. 

They had windows, and water treatment, and appliances, and a car, and credit cards....

The lowest interest rate was 16% and it was the car.  And if something got missed or late, fees.  Credit card late fee here.  Pet emergency care late payment fee, on and on.  Overdraft fees when a paycheck came after a payment. 

It was a mess, and all because the thing was bought NOW on payment and not saved for and paid in full.  Every month the hole got deeper.  For no benefit other than NOW.  The shovels were still readily in hand.

So take everything you buy and add on 16-35% and a few fees.  It really makes life more expensive.  Even with a roommate.  None of this paying it off with cash, or at the end of the month non-sense.

Loren

Cranky

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2025, 06:28:03 PM »
We lived paycheck to paycheck when our paychecks were very small. We didnt overspend because we didn’t have any credit.

I don’t think it would be hard to spent $150k/ year on a middle class life, though - $2500 on an apartment, student loans, a nice car, eat out every day. That stuff adds up fast. Then throw daycare into the mix…

Dicey

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2025, 06:31:31 PM »
I've done it. I got a screaming deal on a condo in my HCOLA. It was a short sale, and I paid $120k for a 2+1 882 sf unit. Alas, at the time, I was only earning about $34k/year. I put 10% down and used a liar's stated income loan. Since I also was putting ~ 10% of my income into a 401k, there were times when my entire bi-monthly paycheck was less than my mortgage payment. I just figured out how to live well on whatever didn't go toward the mortgage payment. I sold it 5 years later for $260k, so the struggle was worth it. BTW, when I left that job after 10 years, my 401k and profit sharing were worth $80k. Those two things set me well on the path to FIRE, before the term existed. I moved into higher paying work and have never lived paycheck to paycheck again. Was it worth it? Hell yes.

Villanelle

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2025, 07:02:00 PM »
Are you asking if I could find ways to spend my entire check?  Like it suddenly because "use it or lose it"?  Sure.  I'd likely buy assets likely to hold (or gain) value, and/or give a lot away, plus overpay my mortgage (and maybe refi to a much shorter loan term) but even if you closed those loop holes, yes.  If there was no value whatsoever in not spending it, I'd spend a lot on services.  Housekeeper 1-2x/week, laundry service (with folding!), personal assistant a few hours a week, handyman, weekly massage, personal chef a few times a week, lawn and gardening service....

I would enjoy all those things.  Not enough to make the expenses worthwhile, but if there was money I had to spend, they would be nice.  Throw in a few "no expense spared vacations", and yeah, I could easily spend every penny and then some.  To be very clear, I don't feel at all deprived not having these things, but I can't say my life wouldn't feel at least a teeny bit better with them. 

Or maybe I'd take in a whole gaggle of rescue dogs.  Or redo my kitchen and bathrooms. 




Zamboni

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2025, 10:05:20 PM »
Someone told me last week he had wagered about $100K on sports gambling last year. He was up $1K. . . and he seemed quite proud of himself. I don't know what to say about that other than I can see a habit like that going sideways fast. Most of the sports were watched at our local sports bar where he sits for hours and hours having drinks and meals every evening and weekend. He also has a 5000 sq ft house overlooking a golf course as a single guy (but he doesn't golf.) Very good chance he is paycheck to paycheck even though he has a really good job.

I don't think I could do it myself at this point unless I bought a really, really much bigger home than I need and decided to start leasing new cars. I already travel more than I want to . . . with all the CC miles/points that seems to almost pay for itself anyway. Some of the nicest locations in the world to visit are not very expensive. Like the rest of you I rapidly get tired of eating out, and I make better coffee at home too. And I like shopping at thrift stores and feel guilty buying household items new because there is already way too much stuff in this country.

twinstudy

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2025, 12:59:53 AM »
Could I imagine how people would be set up to do this in my area?  Yes, easily.

A large mortgage for a "prestigious" address in a good (read absolute best, by whatever standard) school district
Two leased vehicles, plus a third for weekend fun.  At least one, and possibly all 3, are a giant truck.
Two kids, with their day care and after-school activities
Season tickets / club membership / professional development
travelling based on the school schedule, which is always surge priced
Private school, even though you spent to be in an amazing school district
Saving up for a big name school, maybe your alma mater.  Extra prep and activities to increase chances for said school
Dining at the latest fancy place.  There always seems to be more.

My area is the kind of striving area where the after Christmas sale starts two days before Christmas.  (I'm not kidding)  If you want a hot Halloween costume for your kid, you better have shopped in September.

It also is one of the few places in Houston with trees.  Lots of trees.  So, it was the closest thing to Ireland that we could find.  And, fortunately, enough people who do not strive in the ways above for us to have found a lot of friends.  Even if not quite Mustachian, they boggle at the externally-driven consumption that goes on.

I've never understood why so many parents who are genuinely smart and hard-working, whose positive traits got them in a position of wealth, are so obsessed with putting their kids into private schools so that the kids can be in 'elite' company, forgetting that none of it was required for the parents to achieve their riches in the first place. What does a private school give you that an elite public/gifted school wouldn't? I know that at a private school all the kids' parents will be rich, but that isn't going to make your kid a better student, or a better person. And if you really think networking is that important, (1) you have your own networks to give your kids; (2) it's trivially easy to network at university if you had good academic and social experiences in your youth, none of which require a private education.

twinstudy

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2025, 01:03:44 AM »
Someone told me last week he had wagered about $100K on sports gambling last year. He was up $1K. . . and he seemed quite proud of himself. I don't know what to say about that other than I can see a habit like that going sideways fast. Most of the sports were watched at our local sports bar where he sits for hours and hours having drinks and meals every evening and weekend. He also has a 5000 sq ft house overlooking a golf course as a single guy (but he doesn't golf.) Very good chance he is paycheck to paycheck even though he has a really good job.

I don't think I could do it myself at this point unless I bought a really, really much bigger home than I need and decided to start leasing new cars. I already travel more than I want to . . . with all the CC miles/points that seems to almost pay for itself anyway. Some of the nicest locations in the world to visit are not very expensive. Like the rest of you I rapidly get tired of eating out, and I make better coffee at home too. And I like shopping at thrift stores and feel guilty buying household items new because there is already way too much stuff in this country.

Gamblers are the biggest degenerates imo - unless they are playing games of skill, like poker, or they are using arbitrage methods across different gambling sites. Otherwise, they're junkies playing for dopamine with terrible odds. If you really are that much of a dopamine junkie you could just trade shares - same same but with a positive expected value instead of a negative expected value. Or just do some work which involves dopamine. Run trials or do surgery or be a fireman or something.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2025, 04:46:57 AM »
Yes gambling addiction is like any other addiction.  Can lead to very sad outcomes and ruin lives.  One of my husband's best friends in his 20s was a gambling addict, unbenownst to husband.  While staying on his couch this friend stole money from my husband while husband was out working.  Turns out that he was stealing money from pretty much everyone  he knew including from his kids' piggy banks to feed his addition to the poker machines. 

It ended his marriage and he didn't see his 2 kids for several years until he got help. Lost all of his friends. Now he's remarried and is a father to his adult kids but he had to go through what was essentially rehab after he hit rock bottom to get rid of his addition.  Seems like a broken man now.

rothwem

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2025, 04:58:47 AM »
I do live paycheck to paycheck.

Food, property tax, electricity, water, toiletries, gas, and investments.


After that there's never anything left to spend.

Haha yup. Same here.

I do it on purpose, I make sure my checking account has a minimum buffer in it at the end of the month because I’m stupid and if I have money laying around it’ll get spent on something stupid so I make sure to put a shitload of it in investments before it ever hits my account. 

So yes, for the OP, I could totally live paycheck to paycheck even though we pull in 200k a year. There’s no limit to how stupid I could spend money.  I think the money incineration device I’d choose would be some kind of race car, maybe specE36 or rally…

Askel

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2025, 06:44:24 AM »
I think the money incineration device I’d choose would be some kind of race car, maybe specE36 or rally…

Same, it wouldn't take much of a push for me to spend every last dime and then some on rally.   

I had my wakeup call years ago when I shared an elevator with a couple of long time competitors in the sport- they were discussing the costs involved when one said "Man, imagine if we had put all this money we've spent on rally into property or something...."

I got into bicycle racing shortly thereafter. Same amount of fun, but way cheaper.   

reeshau

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2025, 07:22:19 AM »
Someone told me last week he had wagered about $100K on sports gambling last year. He was up $1K. . . and he seemed quite proud of himself. I don't know what to say about that other than I can see a habit like that going sideways fast. Most of the sports were watched at our local sports bar where he sits for hours and hours having drinks and meals every evening and weekend.

I bet his "up $1K" did not include all those drinks and meals, either...

rocketpj

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2025, 08:18:49 AM »
I could do it because I did do it for many years.  HCOL area, expensive kids (don't ask), modest wages.  Funnily enough, I live largely the same now except most of our $ goes into investment/mortgage elimination.

I have a great many friends and acquaintances who spend all they make, have invested nothing and are sanguine about it.  I don't necessarily understand it, but they seem to be enjoying themselves.  These are not low wage individuals, they just live inside the particular year they are experiencing right now.  In some ways they have more fun than I do because I (used to) worry more about $, but I just accept that they have a different path.  I'm happy to grab a happy hour pint with them once in awhile though.

JLee

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2025, 08:26:56 AM »
More expensive cars, hiring out more house projects / remodeling, and eating out all the time - I could totally do it.  Just remodeling bathrooms and hiring out floor / paint would probably consume an entire year's worth of savings space.

I don't think my life would be any better, though (but I will admit new bathrooms would be lovely).

JupiterGreen

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2025, 08:35:43 AM »
I think the money incineration device I’d choose would be some kind of race car, maybe specE36 or rally…

Same, it wouldn't take much of a push for me to spend every last dime and then some on rally.   

I had my wakeup call years ago when I shared an elevator with a couple of long time competitors in the sport- they were discussing the costs involved when one said "Man, imagine if we had put all this money we've spent on rally into property or something...."

I got into bicycle racing shortly thereafter. Same amount of fun, but way cheaper.

I have a friend into cycling and the way they do it, it is not cheap! The bike cost like 10k and they do all the races, travel for it, stay up to date on the bells and whistles. But I get it, by comparison, bikes are generally cheaper than cars. I like running, I need to buy a pair of shoes once a year. My running clothes don't seem to quit so I don't have to replace them often. I can't even remember when I bought those. I tend to buy good shoes, but at most they cost $150 retail, but I am on the "buy last years model" schedule so I tend to get them for under $100. I see it as a healthcare expense.

swashbucklinstache

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2025, 08:37:35 AM »
Could I imagine how people would be set up to do this in my area?  Yes, easily.

A large mortgage for a "prestigious" address in a good (read absolute best, by whatever standard) school district
Two leased vehicles, plus a third for weekend fun.  At least one, and possibly all 3, are a giant truck.
Two kids, with their day care and after-school activities
Season tickets / club membership / professional development
travelling based on the school schedule, which is always surge priced
Private school, even though you spent to be in an amazing school district
Saving up for a big name school, maybe your alma mater.  Extra prep and activities to increase chances for said school
Dining at the latest fancy place.  There always seems to be more.

My area is the kind of striving area where the after Christmas sale starts two days before Christmas.  (I'm not kidding)  If you want a hot Halloween costume for your kid, you better have shopped in September.

It also is one of the few places in Houston with trees.  Lots of trees.  So, it was the closest thing to Ireland that we could find.  And, fortunately, enough people who do not strive in the ways above for us to have found a lot of friends.  Even if not quite Mustachian, they boggle at the externally-driven consumption that goes on.

I've never understood why so many parents who are genuinely smart and hard-working, whose positive traits got them in a position of wealth, are so obsessed with putting their kids into private schools so that the kids can be in 'elite' company, forgetting that none of it was required for the parents to achieve their riches in the first place. What does a private school give you that an elite public/gifted school wouldn't? I know that at a private school all the kids' parents will be rich, but that isn't going to make your kid a better student, or a better person. And if you really think networking is that important, (1) you have your own networks to give your kids; (2) it's trivially easy to network at university if you had good academic and social experiences in your youth, none of which require a private education.
This isn't quite your question. I'm not a parent but this is how the thinking goes for me. I'm a child of two 1975 college graduates of a university ranked around 100th in the country. They're millionaire next door types. I grew up in a small farm town in flyover country. There was no such thing as gifted public schools around here.

I never met my HS guidance counselor. That was for the best since he was there because he was a sports coach. His job was to help troubled kids graduate not talk to the smart kids. My parents gave me the best advice they had but it was 30 years out of date. No one in their network had an advanced degree.

I stopped being challenged academically by my sophomore year of high school (2005) because I'd taken the hardest senior classes offered. None of my friends took more than 1 AP class so I didn't either, though I did take 3 AP tests. The school offered 3 AP classes total. I didn't apply to Ivy schools because you had to write a couple hundred word essay, but really because I was intimidated. I applied for three in-state universities and was, in hindsight, very lucky that one of them was a top 20 university in the world. I only knew that it was a "good" school. I entered college completely under the impression that your college or major or GPA didn't matter. There wasn't really an internet to correct my outdated understandings at the time.

It was hard to fit in surrounded by kids who'd already done calc 3 and organic chemistry and passed 10 AP tests. Who'd picked specific programs to get into specific careers and spent the first semester applying to wall street and big tech internships. My high school chemistry class was taught by the gym teacher. I was vaguely aware of wall street.

I never got learn more than "smart kid goes to good school" when, in hindsight, I would have been much better off at a school on the other side of the student body size spectrum. While I made plenty of friends and networked, my lifelong friends are all from high school. The one exception is the other guy at college from a background like mine.

It's easy for me to imagine how things might've been easier or better if I went to private school because I saw it first hand. Friends who were paid more upon graduation in 2011 than I make now, who understood that setting a high water mark has lifelong career dividends in a way I never did. Who knew, in high school, the path from investment banking to top MBA at 27 to xyz. 

It's easy to forget there's downsides I don't know about and that I'm only seeing the success stories. I'm mindful that the biggest lesson from all the above is that every cohort is different - my knowledge is already significantly out of date. For now I think public school, with private tuition invested instead, and a lot of high school exposure to how the adult world works makes the most sense. It's also easy for me to understand why parents would trust a well-regarded private school if strong public/gifted isn't an option. I don't know why you'd pick private over the latter if they exist, but it's nothing I've ever been exposed to. I do know that many people in my shoes would simply equate their public experience to any public experience, observe their college peers, and conclude that private is better. Despite selection bias and that experience being 15+ years out of date. Thank God for the internet which will help me research things when the time comes.

FIREin2018

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2025, 02:17:53 PM »
re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?

No.
When i bought my house at age 26, there was one in Arlington, VA that was at the max of my mortgage limit.
I would be living on spaghetti/olive oil and peanut butter/jelly till my next raise.
And if i get laid off within the 1st few years of buying it, i'd be screwed.
So i bought a house 30min more away from work than that one.

15yrs later, that house was worth 250% more than the house I bought. Arlington exploded into a trendy place. (Plus all that time wasted getting to/from work)
Oh well. It made sense at that time. Living paycheck to paycheck is scary to me, especially when i can't scale back anything.

Oh, i also found peanut butter cold noddles. It's DELICIOUS!
Then i started making that multiple times per week even tho $ was no longer a problem.
If i knew i could have mixed those 2 together, maybe i would have bought that house.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2025, 06:16:21 PM by FIREin2018 »

ATtiny85

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2025, 05:14:06 PM »
Many people don't have an income problem.  They have a spending problem.  This is a dynamic that plays out to even very high income people.

I have a pretty serious VTSAX buying problem. I have been stressed recently because I retired and our checking account is not going to be able to support the habit starting next month. Spouse makes great money, but a lot comes late in the year. It is going to sting going in and decreasing the amount.

FIREin2018

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Re: Could You Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck?
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2025, 06:18:50 PM »
Many people don't have an income problem.  They have a spending problem.  This is a dynamic that plays out to even very high income people.

I have a pretty serious VTSAX buying problem. I have been stressed recently because I retired and our checking account is not going to be able to support the habit starting next month. Spouse makes great money, but a lot comes late in the year. It is going to sting going in and decreasing the amount.
Oh yes, 1st time i xferred $ INTO my bank acct to cover expenses after I Fired was painful.