Author Topic: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars  (Read 19303 times)

Captain FIRE

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2017, 11:21:03 AM »
The lower paid spouse would have to make over $30k per year just to break even and cover the cost of day care and taxes.  To say nothing of the thousands of dollars it costs to work (gas, work clothes/shoes, professional fees, tolls, etc).  It seems unlikely that any job paying less than $35k would be worth even getting out of bed for.

When you consider the additional costs of working:  no time for making meals and more eating out, no time to do household chores/repairs and possibly hiring someone to do them (or be run ragged trying to do them after work), no time to do money saving things like clipping coupons or managing investments.

Damn, it seems that any job paying less than $45k would hardly be worth it.

And even then, you will be far more stressed and exhausted.  To say nothing of the toll warehousing kids in day care takes on them (as opposed to being at home with a mother/father).

It seems that unless the second spouse was a well paid professional, it wouldn't be worth the cost/stress/damage to take a job.

Skipping over the offensive "warehousing" phrasing, as others are tackling that...

Agreed, it is probably harder to clip coupons and make homemade meals when working than staying home, and can be more stressful to juggle things.  That said, I think you focus on only on one financial benefit from working, number one of the below list of financial benefits:
1) Wages and benefits (health care insurance, 401k matching, 401k option for tax deferred savings, professional fee reimbursed)
2) Opportunity cost of lost raises cumulating over 7.5+ years (assuming 2 kids, spaced about 2 years about, enter kindergarten around 5.5 years).  On the $30k salary you cite, at just 3% raises and no promotions, that becomes $38k by the end, or an additional $35k in total.
3) Challenges of getting back into the workforce, particularly after a 7.5+ year hiatus (which likely require taking a pay cut)
4) Lost years of credit into Social Security or pension
5) Stability/career for the SAHP if the couple divorces

In addition, working can provide other benefits:
6) Adult interaction for the parents (not all people are suited to stay home full time)
7) Trained child care development specialists (providing care & available for your questions) who are well-rested
8) Regular group interaction/socialization for the child

And don't forget, you still need to buy clothes/shoes, whether they are work related or not.  (Likely those requiring more expensive outfits (e.g. suits) are those with a higher salary making it clearly financially better to work.)

Certainly, there are many other benefits to staying home, but a strict look at just the finances should consider the entire financial picture and not just a slice of it.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2017, 11:21:09 AM »

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Only if you dig a hole in the backyard to dispose of their body... 
Our son was stillborn, and we had cremation fees (plus delivery fees...but let's call that a mother's expense and not a baby one). So even a kid that isn't alive has some expense.

StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2017, 11:21:20 AM »
It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Zero?

Um, what?

well sure - If you have 100% covered health care with no deductibles and you inherit a giant stash of washable diapers which  you wash in the creek behind your house and just increase your dumpster diving a little you too can have a child for ZERO extra dollars :)

MrAlanBreck

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2017, 11:22:06 AM »

I remember reading in Freakonomics that statistically it matters more who you are before you have children than what you do once you have children. Ie. a child who is born to a 30 year old college educated woman in  stable job but who is sent to daycare will almost always have better outcomes than a child born to a 22 year old with some college who stays at home and creates a wonderful and loving environment - essentially a sweet spot of both nature and nurture.


I would go further and say it matters more who you are in conception.  IQ, Personality, etc. are largely genetic.

mathlete

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2017, 11:23:02 AM »

Only if you dig a hole in the backyard to dispose of their body... 
Our son was stillborn, and we had cremation fees (plus delivery fees...but let's call that a mother's expense and not a baby one). So even a kid that isn't alive has some expense.

:(

Sorry for your loss.

ysette9

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2017, 12:01:22 PM »
Adding also that I am sorry for your loss. We had two losses at 17 weeks and that was the hardest thing I have ever lived through. I imagine it would be exponentially harder with a stillbirth.

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2017, 12:03:06 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2017, 12:07:33 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

don't be sorry! Lots of us have struggled with fertility and loss and it is really wonderful that you can speak about it.

And yes - Zero is ridiculous.

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2017, 12:30:47 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.

ysette9

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2017, 12:31:18 PM »
Not to hijack the thread too much, but having gone through infertility (now) and losses I think it is really important to talk openly about it. It is very painful to struggle with all of that while also feeling totally isolated due to a sense that no one else is going through the same thing. I try to be open about our own experiences now in case someone down the line has problems and wants to reach out.

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2017, 12:35:44 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

don't be sorry! Lots of us have struggled with fertility and loss and it is really wonderful that you can speak about it.

And yes - Zero is ridiculous.

Zero is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is that a bunch of adults that ought to know better, discard millions of year of human existence where having a child did not cost any money at all.

I am not saying that most people should aim for that in this day and age, I am saying that the starting point is zero and then you get to decide (like the adult that you are) how much to spend on top.






StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2017, 12:47:03 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

don't be sorry! Lots of us have struggled with fertility and loss and it is really wonderful that you can speak about it.

And yes - Zero is ridiculous.

Zero is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is that a bunch of adults that ought to know better, discard millions of year of human existence where having a child did not cost any money at all.

I am not saying that most people should aim for that in this day and age, I am saying that the starting point is zero and then you get to decide (like the adult that you are) how much to spend on top.

I'm saying the starting point is not Zero.

FWIW- I agree that it is possible for some of the population to raise children to the age of 18 with much lower costs than 250k, especially if you do not take opportunity costs of potential lost earnings years of a stay at home parent into account.

But unless you are off the grid from the moment of conception and purchase no additional furnishings, clothing, food, educational materials, medical care etc then then you are not at zero. I doubt anyone is all of those things. Even the most off the grid communities I can think of use money for basic materials and three people are eventually going to use more than two people.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 01:00:13 PM by StarBright »

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2017, 12:50:15 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.

I don't think anyone in this forum is arguing they have to be expensive, most of us have spending WELL below any averages. But the cost of these things is not zero. You cannot say a child costs zero and the rest is optional and not expect backlash.

RangerOne

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2017, 12:58:35 PM »
As others have noted many of the major costs factoring into these estimates are optional, though many higher income Americans don't see them as such.

There is always a balance between paying to open up opportunities for your child and remaining financially sound so you aren't a burden to your family late in life. There are many ways to reach that goal though I think if very early FIRE is your goal, you will be investigating many alternative more affordable ways to enrich your child.

I think also sometimes people forget that maybe being able to spend more actual time with your child may be worth more in the long run than being able to sign them up for more summer camp or classes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
Lots of good points recently.  And remember the article was talking 0-18 (or older? I didn't read it) - you are focusing on the expensive first years.  6-12 is relatively low-cost, or potentially so.  Teens start to be more expensive again (all those growth spurts).  But the same mustachian techniques that keep our living costs lower than average will work with children's expenses too.

honeybbq

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2017, 01:13:47 PM »
Quote
When you consider the additional costs of working:  no time for making meals and more eating out, no time to do household chores/repairs and possibly hiring someone to do them (or be run ragged trying to do them after work), no time to do money saving things like clipping coupons or managing investments.

Damn, it seems that any job paying less than $45k would hardly be worth it.

And even then, you will be far more stressed and exhaustedTo say nothing of the toll warehousing kids in day care takes on them (as opposed to being at home with a mother/father).

It seems that unless the second spouse was a well paid professional, it wouldn't be worth the cost/stress/damage to take a job.

Note I said "second spouse," not "wife."  Either parent could be the stay at home with the kids.  So please, feminists, don't go off on me as a "Donald Trump-like mysogynist."

The underlined are good points.  It can be tiring and stressful at times, and isn't for the faint of heart.

But fuck off on the bolded.  I don't fucking warehouse my kids.  It doesn't take a toll on either one of them (or didn't for the elementary school child either).  Of course, as someone without children you are showing your lack of knowledge.

I'm getting the impression I may have wandered into sensitive subject among parents? :)

You are right, I don't have kids and have never had to make that call.  And I'm not going to get into a long debate about it, because, as you said, I have no skin in the game.  And frankly, I don't really care all that much one way or the other.

My opinion was based on the fact that before I became a crotchety middle-aged man, I was a kid once.  And based on that experience, it seems to me that a parent might do a better job of taking care of kids than dropping them at some facility where they will be "cared for" by workers who make an average of $9/hour (less than what the average Walmart worker feeding the fish in the pet department makes)?

My kid's daycare employs college graduates or master's degree employees with specializations in early childhood education. I have a PhD in a STEM. Believe it or not, both the daycare and I (and the father) contribute to raising my daughter. My kid knows more about the solar system at 5 years old than I bet most adults do because of the projects they do at 'school'. And she can socialize with consistent friends since she is an only child. They do a fantastic job "caring" for her. Just being 'a kid once' means you have no idea of the modern facilities where children can be cared for, loved, and educated in a nurturing environment.

honeybbq

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2017, 01:16:35 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

I am also sorry for your tragic loss. There is a LOT of absurdity in this thread.

honeybbq

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2017, 01:17:22 PM »
Not to hijack the thread too much, but having gone through infertility (now) and losses I think it is really important to talk openly about it. It is very painful to struggle with all of that while also feeling totally isolated due to a sense that no one else is going through the same thing. I try to be open about our own experiences now in case someone down the line has problems and wants to reach out.

+ 1

Two miscarriages here.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2017, 01:19:53 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

don't be sorry! Lots of us have struggled with fertility and loss and it is really wonderful that you can speak about it.

And yes - Zero is ridiculous.

Zero is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is that a bunch of adults that ought to know better, discard millions of year of human existence where having a child did not cost any money at all.

I am not saying that most people should aim for that in this day and age, I am saying that the starting point is zero and then you get to decide (like the adult that you are) how much to spend on top.
Of course "millions of years" of humans did not use money--money was not the means by which goods and services were exchanged. But it did take hunting and gathering and constantly moving and work and trade and all other sorts of activities that took a lot of time and effort.

Our ancestors determined that this was not very efficient and, skipping a few millenia, we now use currency as a means for exchange.

To argue otherwise is being dense to the point of having zero credibility, and probably ignores your own life (which, I assume includes paying property taxes, buying food, etc.).

MayDay

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2017, 01:24:34 PM »
:::::::::::::runs in ::::::::::::::::

I sent my kids to daycare a warehouse once a week even when I was a sahm because kids suck sometimes.

:::::::::::: Runs out:::::::::::::

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2017, 02:02:29 PM »
Thanks...sorry, wasn't digging for sympathy in the thread. I compartmentalize pretty well, so was really just going with $0 for children is absurd.

don't be sorry! Lots of us have struggled with fertility and loss and it is really wonderful that you can speak about it.

And yes - Zero is ridiculous.

Zero is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is that a bunch of adults that ought to know better, discard millions of year of human existence where having a child did not cost any money at all.

I am not saying that most people should aim for that in this day and age, I am saying that the starting point is zero and then you get to decide (like the adult that you are) how much to spend on top.
Of course "millions of years" of humans did not use money--money was not the means by which goods and services were exchanged. But it did take hunting and gathering and constantly moving and work and trade and all other sorts of activities that took a lot of time and effort.

Our ancestors determined that this was not very efficient and, skipping a few millenia, we now use currency as a means for exchange.

To argue otherwise is being dense to the point of having zero credibility, and probably ignores your own life (which, I assume includes paying property taxes, buying food, etc.).

If you are going to pull out the hunter gatherer ledger book, you can't just count the input without also calculating output.

Millions of years ago, humans "spent" time raising children but that time was returned with dividends when the children grew up and contributed to the tribe. Given that we have survived these dark times and have not been driven to extinction because of having children, I am happy to state that raising children provides a net benefit and not a cost.

I maintain that it's possible to raise a child with minimal monetary input. I will even say that, with the existing social programs in some countries, it might even be possible to raise a child and pay LESS THAN ZERO.

Enjoy the day!





J Boogie

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2017, 02:37:54 PM »
:::::::::::::runs in ::::::::::::::::

I sent my kids to daycare a warehouse once a week even when I was a sahm because kids suck sometimes.

:::::::::::: Runs out:::::::::::::

No judgment here. You gotta come up for air sometimes, organize around the house or do a project you've been putting off.  Hard to do when you've got little ones running around.

People talk about it being more stressful to have a job and pay for childcare.  I don't think so.  I think frequent interaction with fellow adults, the free ability to go to the bathroom when you feel the need, etc that work provides actually makes me less stressed as a parent.  My wife is right around the income cutoff that people have named (but her job also includes yearly spouse included vacations to places like Napa Valley, Spain, Ireland where the finest restaurants cater to us) and I think she might be more stressed if she were looking after our 8 month old all day.  I know I would be.

ysette9

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »
Yes! A break to pee without an audience. What a luxury. Hahah

Note: I adore my kid and wish I had more time with her, but FT stay at home parent would be more than I could handle.

mm1970

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2017, 04:43:35 PM »
Quote
My opinion was based on the fact that before I became a crotchety middle-aged man, I was a kid once.  And based on that experience, it seems to me that a parent might do a better job of taking care of kids than dropping them at some facility where they will be "cared for" by workers who make an average of $9/hour (less than what the average Walmart worker feeding the fish in the pet department makes)?
Again, you are applying your own lack of knowledge here.  No personal experience whatsoever.

You are making a gross generalization about *all* daycares based...not only on ZERO personal experience, but on...what?  I have no idea?  Something you read somewhere?

My kids were very well cared for at small home daycares with small ratios.  One of my *very* best friends was the daycare provider for my younger son.  Her income each year, if she is full that year, is approximately $98,000 a year.  A far cry from $9 an hour.  She's been in childcare for a couple of decades and has her degree in it also.  (Granted, she is not "full", as she has a few part-time children, but a reasonable estimate of income is $80,000).

And yes she *does* care for and love the children she takes into her home.  Because she's an amazing and awesome woman.  My older son's childcare was much the same.  A mother-daughter team who had been going long enough to be on a "new generation" (aka, adults who attended the childcare had children who attended the childcare).

Move on to age 4 and preschool, and *both* preschools were/are staffed by college educated adults, some of whom have actual state teaching credentials.  (The preschool teachers at my older son's school are now teaching grades 1,4, and 5).

Wow the relationships that we've built with these folks.  Amazing.

Don't even make me get into the fact that the average child in child care attends 32 hours per week...FAR under the 168 hours that are in an actual week.  Also, not accounting for holidays and vacation days.

mm1970

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2017, 04:45:11 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.
You haven't seen my 10 year old eat.  And worse, I'm kind of remembering my younger brother age 15 or 16.  Oh boy.  My parents were separated by then.  He stayed with dad, I moved out with mom.  He would come over for the weekend.  When he left Sunday night there would be little left for us to eat in the house.

mm1970

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2017, 04:53:02 PM »
Yes! A break to pee without an audience. What a luxury. Hahah

Note: I adore my kid and wish I had more time with her, but FT stay at home parent would be more than I could handle.

I've always felt that
- Having a SAHP would be overall less stressful for the FAMILY than having two working parents, assuming that there are no financial burdens associated with that.  The SAHP has the stress of caring for the house and children.  The WP has stress of work.  But the fact that you are able to be at home means that you can handle "things" during the day, that working parents cannot.  You are physically there to meet the plumber, clean the toilet, cook dinner.  You are physically there to stay home on a snow day, or with a sick kid, or on those damn random "inservice days" at school.  This means that nights and weeks are there for relaxation.  From speaking with my SAHP friends - they would very often be reluctant to set up get-togethers on weekends.  It was "their time".  Family time, or even time alone - I saw many a dad at the playground on Sat morning with the kids, not many moms.  One even said this to me point blank.  That she had enough friends at playdates mid-week.

So many of the chores are done during the day.

- Staying at home with children is HARD.  The lack of sleep, the breastfeeding, the no time to pee or eat.  Honestly, being at work is easier than being at home.  I love my kids to death.  But at work, I snack when I want, pee when I want, take a walk around the block when I want.  I am not constantly referreeing, pouring milk or water, getting food or snacks, washing dishes, picking up toys.

So, the physical/mental act of being at work is easier than being at home.
But family life is overall more stressful with two full time working parents, simply from a time standpoint (excepting financial or other special issues).

Two parents at 3/4 time would be GLORIOUS.  I worked 3/4 time for a number of years and it was awesome.

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2017, 04:54:50 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.
You haven't seen my 10 year old eat.  And worse, I'm kind of remembering my younger brother age 15 or 16.  Oh boy.  My parents were separated by then.  He stayed with dad, I moved out with mom.  He would come over for the weekend.  When he left Sunday night there would be little left for us to eat in the house.

You are a poor hunter/gatherer if you are paying for food.

Apparently.

obstinate

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »
You can feed an adult for about $200/mo, easy. Even if you model your kid as eating as much as an adult human (insanely generous assumption, over the kid's entire childhood), that's $2,500 per year. That's not going to add up to 250k, no matter how you twist it. That's $45,000 over eighteen years. Where is the other 80% going?

Edit: I see that what I'm responding to are people complaining about the hyperbolic use of "zero" where the poster clearly meant, "a low amount." Hrm. Do we really think that's the best use of our time?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:59:11 PM by obstinate »

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2017, 06:35:29 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.
You haven't seen my 10 year old eat.  And worse, I'm kind of remembering my younger brother age 15 or 16.  Oh boy.  My parents were separated by then.  He stayed with dad, I moved out with mom.  He would come over for the weekend.  When he left Sunday night there would be little left for us to eat in the house.

http://efficiencyiseverything.com/calorie-per-dollar-list/

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2017, 06:36:51 PM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.
You haven't seen my 10 year old eat.  And worse, I'm kind of remembering my younger brother age 15 or 16.  Oh boy.  My parents were separated by then.  He stayed with dad, I moved out with mom.  He would come over for the weekend.  When he left Sunday night there would be little left for us to eat in the house.

You are a poor hunter/gatherer if you are paying for food.

Apparently.

Ahah good one! Thanks for the intellectual input.

Not.

big_slacker

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2017, 07:03:03 PM »

http://efficiencyiseverything.com/calorie-per-dollar-list/

It's important to note that a *LOT* of the stuff on the list is of low nutritional value in addition to being cheap and high calorie. The author touches on it a little with his scurvy comment and his love of legumes.

It is possible to feed kids (and adults) cheaper than many people think or do. Meal planning isn't a lost art but it's getting there.

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2017, 07:38:26 PM »

http://efficiencyiseverything.com/calorie-per-dollar-list/

It's important to note that a *LOT* of the stuff on the list is of low nutritional value in addition to being cheap and high calorie. The author touches on it a little with his scurvy comment and his love of legumes.

It is possible to feed kids (and adults) cheaper than many people think or do. Meal planning isn't a lost art but it's getting there.

True :)!

I am not advocating feeding only flours to kids, I was merely pointing out that nutrition is cheap.


ysette9

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2017, 07:50:24 PM »
3/4 time sounds good and I think both parents working 1/2 fine would be perfect. I dream of doing that once FI but I don't know if my husband's job would support that. That will be time to look into consulting.

StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2017, 07:34:06 AM »
You can feed an adult for about $200/mo, easy. Even if you model your kid as eating as much as an adult human (insanely generous assumption, over the kid's entire childhood), that's $2,500 per year. That's not going to add up to 250k, no matter how you twist it. That's $45,000 over eighteen years. Where is the other 80% going?

Edit: I see that what I'm responding to are people complaining about the hyperbolic use of "zero" where the poster clearly meant, "a low amount." Hrm. Do we really think that's the best use of our time?

I personally was calling out the Zero as absurd because I think comments like that do a disservice to people planning on having kids. I think articles about astronomical child raising costs can help people plan better for when they have children (it certainly helped me). Knowing the average costs of hypothetical children led us to save more before we had them.

The most common comment I've heard from friends when they have children is being shocked at how expensive it is because "babies don't eat much and you can buy used clothes." - you know what they don't take into account? Childcare and medical.

At my office a silver-esque medical insurance plan is about $60 a paycheck (pretty reasonable) - add a kid to that and it jumps up to $250 a paycheck and then you have a fairly large deductible. Or in the case of some of my friends and coworkers, I often see one parent making 40k and one making 50k but the 40k parent has the much better insurance option, essentially cancelling out the extra money that the other spouse makes - so they both end up working and putting the kid in daycare.

One spouse making enough to have the other parent stay at home is a really wonderful option obviously and we know it happens (lots of people on this board do it) but I think a lot of young people in their prime childbearing years just aren't pulling in that kind of money yet. I think folks should take the 250k as a guideline and then do their darndest to come in under that - but don't tell 25 year olds that it takes almost nothing to raise a child.

MayDay

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2017, 07:55:51 AM »
^^^^^ gold star!

Chris22

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2017, 07:57:33 AM »
One spouse making enough to have the other parent stay at home is a really wonderful option obviously and we know it happens (lots of people on this board do it) but I think a lot of young people in their prime childbearing years just aren't pulling in that kind of money yet.

And even if it does happen, that doesn't mean your childcare is free, you've just given up a $XX,XXX income to pay for it.  It's only free if that person wasn't going to work anyways.

big_slacker

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2017, 08:11:33 AM »
Childcare and medical.

At my office a silver-esque medical insurance plan is about $60 a paycheck (pretty reasonable) - add a kid to that and it jumps up to $250 a paycheck and then you have a fairly large deductible. Or in the case of some of my friends and coworkers, I often see one parent making 40k and one making 50k but the 40k parent has the much better insurance option, essentially cancelling out the extra money that the other spouse makes - so they both end up working and putting the kid in daycare.

One spouse making enough to have the other parent stay at home is a really wonderful option obviously and we know it happens (lots of people on this board do it) but I think a lot of young people in their prime childbearing years just aren't pulling in that kind of money yet. I think folks should take the 250k as a guideline and then do their darndest to come in under that - but don't tell 25 year olds that it takes almost nothing to raise a child.

Healthcare is definitely a cost of doing business when it comes to kids. This is actually the main reason I'm working for the man W2 still instead of running my own consulting biz. It's worth noting though that when you work for a larger corp the healthcare cost is usually subsidized and a better plan. I have an HSA where the employer pays in 2/3rds of the yearly single person deductible so mine ends up being like $180/month to make up the rest of the deductible amount and monthly for dental and vision.

Childcare for really young ones is the big kick in the nuts. Until they're in full day regular school even with my high income we felt it was better to have my wife at home raising the kids. $1700/kid AFTER a 20% discount my employer pays would REALLY suck. Would eat up most of what my wife could make anyway so why not have mom at home raising the kids according to our values? She's going back to work this year and man what a relief that's going to be!

On your prime childbearing years thing, I disagree on what those are. My first kid was born when I was 36 and I feel like I had *JUST* enough patience, life experience and finances to get started. To be blunt, most 20 somethings I see don't have their shit together in a way that would make me comfortable having children. If I was interviewing them for the job of parent (which of course I'm not, haha!) I'd reject like 7/10, and that would absolutely include myself at 25.

Chris22

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2017, 08:17:34 AM »
On your prime childbearing years thing, I disagree on what those are. My first kid was born when I was 36 and I feel like I had *JUST* enough patience, life experience and finances to get started. To be blunt, most 20 somethings I see don't have their shit together in a way that would make me comfortable having children. If I was interviewing them for the job of parent (which of course I'm not, haha!) I'd reject like 7/10, and that would absolutely include myself at 25.

I don't think anyone is ready until they actually have a kid.  But having a little living, breathing thing depend on you for literally every need has the effect of making most of us grow up pretty quickly. 

StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2017, 08:25:00 AM »

On your prime childbearing years thing, I disagree on what those are. My first kid was born when I was 36 and I feel like I had *JUST* enough patience, life experience and finances to get started. To be blunt, most 20 somethings I see don't have their shit together in a way that would make me comfortable having children. If I was interviewing them for the job of parent (which of course I'm not, haha!) I'd reject like 7/10, and that would absolutely include myself at 25.

I hear ya big_slacker. I'd call 25-35 prime childbearing years :) I had mine at 30 and 32 and wish I'd had them just a bit younger from an energy perspective - but DH and I have really just started to make solid money the last couple of years.

My "don't tell 25 year olds . . " was more about giving someone that age the heads up that kids are frackin expensive so they better start saving if they want to offer their future babies middle class advantages.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2017, 08:27:03 AM »
On your prime childbearing years thing, I disagree on what those are.

Fertility determines that for humans right now 36 is not "prime childbearing years".

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2017, 08:44:40 AM »
I think folks should take the 250k as a guideline and then do their darndest to come in under that - but don't tell 25 year olds that it takes almost nothing to raise a child.

I disagree with your guideline. The 250K figure is just a bunch of hypothetical noise and fear mongering.

Yes, kids CAN be expensive, but just like car shopping, you can guy the Lamborghini, the Mercedes, the used Volvo or you can just decide to think outside the box and ride your bike. 

Did you know that the Canadian Government provides up to 93-97K$ in free money to parents for kids from age 1-18? That is just one example, there are other ways too.


big_slacker

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2017, 09:43:49 AM »
On your prime childbearing years thing, I disagree on what those are.

Fertility determines that for humans right now 36 is not "prime childbearing years".

And everything else I mentioned in my post lets you know I wasn't talking about biological optimal age to HAVE the kids but instead optimal ability to raise them. Others bridged the gap, but you can mentally substitute childrearing for childbearing if it helps.

For everyone else, yes there is a tradeoff in that you're physically older but energy levels shouldn't be an issue if you take care of yourself. Most people in their 20's are still figuring out life. Mastering their trade, figuring out personal finances, figuring out what their real passions are, knowing their own strengths and weaknesses and working on both of them. Dumping kids into the mix adds a BIG degree of difficulty to those things. Sure it can help mature you in some ways out of necessity but it can really limit the time and energy you can put into developing many others. I could get specific using some examples and maybe will later, but now I have to drop a kid off and go snowboarding. :D

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2017, 09:52:14 AM »
And everything else I mentioned in my post lets you know I wasn't talking about biological optimal age to HAVE the kids but instead optimal ability to raise them. Others bridged the gap, but you can mentally substitute childrearing for childbearing if it helps.

I know what you were saying, but if you can't bear the children, you can't rear them. So if everyone waited until mid-30s a lot of people would end up just not having kids. (Or having kids with special needs that make them much more expensive to raise!

Yes, it works out for most people; but waiting until you are financially settled can cause a lot of issues.  Mid to late 20s seems to be fairly optimal in both regards. 

 
Did you know that the Canadian Government provides up to 93-97K$ in free money to parents for kids from age 1-18? That is just one example, there are other ways too.

)
Presumably only to Canadians, right?  This article is about the cost of raising a child in the US.  So I doubt those funds factor in.

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2017, 10:03:00 AM »
 
Did you know that the Canadian Government provides up to 93-97K$ in free money to parents for kids from age 1-18? That is just one example, there are other ways too.

)
Presumably only to Canadians, right?  This article is about the cost of raising a child in the US.  So I doubt those funds factor in.

Geo-social arbitrage.

But that was only an example to illustrate my point. I am sure clever people have managed to raise kids on the cheap in the states too. Kids are resource intensive for sure, but that resource does not have to be cash.

"A quarter of A MILLION DOLLAR!!!!!!!!!" Is just a big number to scare people (away from having kids? to promote social programs?).

It's like saying the average home in San-Francisco costs 3,000,000$. Yeah, maybe but that doesn't mean that you can't get shelter for orders of magnitudes less if you are clever.

Chris22

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2017, 10:30:42 AM »
"A quarter of A MILLION DOLLAR!!!!!!!!!" Is just a big number to scare people (away from having kids? to promote social programs?).

It's interesting, because I believe the number is probably pretty accurate for most people, but I disagree with they way they arrived at it (mostly the housing portion).  But I do think the childcare portion is probably either accurate (for daycare parents) or understated (for people who elect to stop working and stay home).  The only people it probably is overstating for are low-income people who stay home or have other subsidies.

StarBright

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2017, 10:36:45 AM »
"A quarter of A MILLION DOLLAR!!!!!!!!!" Is just a big number to scare people (away from having kids? to promote social programs?).

It's interesting, because I believe the number is probably pretty accurate for most people, but I disagree with they way they arrived at it (mostly the housing portion).  But I do think the childcare portion is probably either accurate (for daycare parents) or understated (for people who elect to stop working and stay home).  The only people it probably is overstating for are low-income people who stay home or have other subsidies.

You are correct that the quarter million overstates for low income. The article actually specifies that the quarter million number is for "middle class" which in the case of the study was declared to be those families making between 59k and 107k.

The number per child given for families earning less than 60k was about 175k.

Families earning more than 107k had an average closer to $350k.


mm1970

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2017, 10:53:11 AM »
Why is this posted here instead of in the wall of shame section?

It's all about choices. A kid costs zero, what is expensive is the topping you decide to put on top.

Yeah. Who says that you even have to keep the kid alive? Excellent cost savings measure there.

Your hyperbole is neither necessary nor helpful.

Children NEED food, shelter, love and intellectual stimulation. None of these are expensive.
You haven't seen my 10 year old eat.  And worse, I'm kind of remembering my younger brother age 15 or 16.  Oh boy.  My parents were separated by then.  He stayed with dad, I moved out with mom.  He would come over for the weekend.  When he left Sunday night there would be little left for us to eat in the house.

You are a poor hunter/gatherer if you are paying for food.

Apparently.
Well, I think my neighbors would be unhappy if I started stealing their eggs or chickens. :)  My family in PA hunts, but they don't ship me the venison.

mm1970

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2017, 10:58:22 AM »

http://efficiencyiseverything.com/calorie-per-dollar-list/

It's important to note that a *LOT* of the stuff on the list is of low nutritional value in addition to being cheap and high calorie. The author touches on it a little with his scurvy comment and his love of legumes.

It is possible to feed kids (and adults) cheaper than many people think or do. Meal planning isn't a lost art but it's getting there.

True :)!

I am not advocating feeding only flours to kids, I was merely pointing out that nutrition is cheap.
Calories are cheap.

Nutrition, not so much.

(FWIW, my grocery bill last year for a family of 4 was in the "low cost" per the USDA.  I do know what I'm doing.)

Guses

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2017, 11:01:16 AM »
You are correct that the quarter million overstates for low income. The article actually specifies that the quarter million number is for "middle class" which in the case of the study was declared to be those families making between 59k and 107k.

The number per child given for families earning less than 60k was about 175k.

Families earning more than 107k had an average closer to $350k.

To me, this clearly illustrates that most of the quoted number is (parents) WANTS not (children )NEEDS.

Do you really believe that a kid's need is a function of its (their?) parents' salaries? I certainly don't.

Is it surprising that people spend most of their available funds on their kids? No. Is it required? No.


I'm a red panda

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Re: Cost of raising a child nears a quarter million dollars
« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2017, 11:08:41 AM »
That's why it is an average cost to raise. Not a required cost to raise, or a minimum cost to raise.

This study looks at what people ARE spending to raise their kids. Not what they have to. 

But kids still aren't a zero cost thing.