Anyone have an airplane?

[REatc]

It’s probably one of the least mustachian things, but I’ve always wanted one. I’ve chose my career path 10 years ago with the potential to afford an airplane one day vs flying for a living. I think I’ve chose correctly so far. I think it is probably only for those who are fatFIRE, and looking to add luxuries into their life. If I do decide in the next 5-10 years to get an airplane, I would build it and it would be my last expense. House would be paid off and I would be somewhere between FI and fatFI.
Any other pilots/airplane owners? How would you add the expense into your FI calculations, if anything different?

[KarefulKactus15]

Not an owner but my friend has one.

He owns it as a co op with 2 others.  It's an older model Mooney.

Going over cost with him didn't seem all that bad when split. It requires about 1 major thing a year. This year the fuel tanks were re done.

Like everything in life, he doesn't fly much any more, it sadly sits at the airport alot. 

I used to think I wanted a plane..... But there are soooooo many rules. Not the ultimate freedom I was looking for.

Most small airports have rental planes. I think it would be worthwhile to have the license and rent at any local airport when you go on vacation more than it would to own your own.

Example I went to reno a while back - I wanted to see lake tahoe. I rented a motorcycle and toured around that way. But there was a local airport that rented cesna 172 size and micro lite planes, if I had the license I would have much preferred to see everything that way.   

[Uturn]

I don't have a plane because I am medically grounded. However, if I were still able to fly I would love to have something like a Kolb MK III. 

Funny thing about planes, unless you put more specifics around what you are looking for, it is much like asking how much is a car.  A Cessna 150 is an airplane, as is a Gulfstream 700. 

I never had any desire to have a nice cross country plane, because of expense and I really have no where to go. But I love flying and just being in the air.  Hence a MK III is more suited to me than say a Piper Lance. I also think I would have more fun finding off airport fun rather than jumping from FBO to FBO.  Find some public land to set down on and pitch a tent for the night, sounds wonderful.  Fly to a fancy FBO and get a fancy hotel room, I think I would tire of that.

[YttriumNitrate]

For a few years I was part of a club that owned three airplanes. There were probably 50-something people, so scheduling was sometimes a bit tight on the weekends, but Monday through Friday I never had an issue getting a plane. If you are retired, that wouldn't be a problem. Currently, their Piper Warrior II rents for $105 an hour wet, and from what I remember that's pretty close to the actual hourly cost of the plane factoring everything (hanger, fuel, insurance, maintenance, etc.) and assuming a good amount of use (at least 1,000 hours a year). The fixed costs were a rather substantial, and a few times price hikes were threatened if people didn't start flying more.

I wouldn't budget for a plane any different than any other hobby.

[ericrugiero]

I have a friend who has two planes.  Neither one is expensive (relative to other planes).  He says that planes don't depreciate like most other vehicles.  His are worth more than he paid for them.  He does spend a fair amount in annual maintenance and hanger fees.  Finding a group of people to split the costs with and share the usage seems like the most efficient way to use one.   

My friend was actually bragging the other day about how much his planes had appreciated since he bought them.  He said "I don't know anywhere else you can get 8-10% returns per year".  I told him that the stock market would have returned more than that over the last few years without costing anything in maintenance or storage costs.  Of course, you can't fly the stock market. 

[Metalcat]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

[terran]

Nothing really to add, but my grandad and uncle owned one together. I went up in it a few times with my grandad. It was pretty cool. My uncle had more than one "adventurous" landing (a highway and a parking lot). I think they used to rent it out to others. As with any such purchase you should evaluate your options compared to owning when considering how often you actually plan to use it. If you can afford it without endangering your other goals and it's the best use you can think of for that money given your personal values (and those of a spouse, if any) then you should absolutely do it.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I'm not a plane person but I don't see anything un-Mustachian about it. If you like it and can afford it, then buy it and enjoy it - as with anything in life it comes down to preferences and priorities. Happy flying.

[YttriumNitrate]

He says that planes don't depreciate like most other vehicles.

While most planes don't depreciate like cars, that's mainly due to there being far more older planes than older cars. Flying around in 30+ year old plane is quite common, but you don't see many 30-year-old cars on the road. I would guess that the depreciation/appreciation of a 30-year-old car kept in pristine mechanical condition is about the same as a 30-year-old plane.

[ericrugiero]

One other thing my pilot friend told me.  He doesn't use his personal planes to travel.  The smaller cheaper (~$30-60K) planes are more for a fun afternoon exploring (in his opinion).  He and his wife might fly a hundred miles to go to dinner but they don't go overnight.  To get a bigger plane that can haul a family with their stuff on a trip you are looking at a much more expensive plane.    Of course, as a mustachian you may have different priorities and could possibly do longer trips.  Just keep in mind those small planes are more likely affected by bad weather, poor visibility, etc. 

[REatc]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

[Metalcat]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

Well, sounds like you know more than enough to make the appropriate decisions.

I'm curious what you're seeking input on?

[tennisray]

I'm in the process of learning about airplane ownership costs now.  My 14 year old wants to be a pilot.  He is in the Civil Air Patrol and loves it.  He wants to get his private pilot license.  I thought renting would be the most cost-effective.  However, some other members have convinced me that co-owning would be better.  I'm still not sure about co-ownership, but buying a Cessna 172 would allow our kids to get their ppl cheaper.  I have heard that all the depreciation has occurred already and we'd be able to sell for the same cost as we purchase (give or take).  It's just the maintenance costs that add up.  Also, apparently you can sign up to rent your plane to recoup some costs. 

I don't want problems with co-owning with friends to come up, though.  So, I'm still debating. 

Overall, I probably would NOT agree that you need to be FatFire to have some sort of plane ownership.

[PathToFI]

Years ago I owned a Citabria 7KCAB in which I gave tail wheel and introductory aerobatic instruction.   It was an enjoyable venture but I don’t plan to doing it again.   After selling the Citabria, I bought a tiny used homebuilt, a Sonerai II, for some dirt cheap fun flying.  The Sonerai went away because I relocated to a larger city and hangers were not available within a reasonable distance. 

I get my flying fix by doing it for my day job.   

I’ll miss flying after retirement.  I will probably occasionally just rent but would consider getting into a partnership in something older and interesting.   I wouldn’t be able to enjoy owning a plane by myself because expense costs would be tallying up in my head every time I thought about it.   Building your own plane would be an amazing accomplishment! I believe to complete a plane you would have to love the activity of building not just want to end up with a plane.   

So an older plane that will not depreciate with multiple partners to dilute the expenses.  That would be the way for me to do it frugally enough that I could enjoy it. 

[REatc]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

Well, sounds like you know more than enough to make the appropriate decisions.

I'm curious what you're seeking input on?

Maybe at what point along the FI journey to pull the trigger. Just spit balling with my girlfriend last night, I was suggesting not until we have enough to at least pay off our house in my taxable account. I would feel more comfortable then starting to spend on toys. That would be 5-6 years from now with investments of 650-800k depending on markets. After the 5 years to build (projecting NW), our NW would be 1M+ plus ability to pay off house plus a paid for airplane. What do you/y’all think?

[Posthumane]

I owned a C172 for about 9 years before it was destroyed in a big storm (while parked). Used the insurance money to buy another aircraft, this time an amateur built. The 172 cost me 30k CAD and the second aircraft a little less. I generally budgeted about 10k a year for about 65 hours of flying, so not really any cheaper than renting. My annual maintenance varied from about 1000 on the low end to 9000 on the high end, insurance was around 1500, and fuel ran me about $50/hr with a MoGas STC. With the new plane the maintenance cost is much lower since it's an amateur build, but I store it in a rented hangar now which is probably the most expensive part.

[Metalcat]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

Well, sounds like you know more than enough to make the appropriate decisions.

I'm curious what you're seeking input on?

Maybe at what point along the FI journey to pull the trigger. Just spit balling with my girlfriend last night, I was suggesting not until we have enough to at least pay off our house in my taxable account. I would feel more comfortable then starting to spend on toys. That would be 5-6 years from now with investments of 650-800k depending on markets. After the 5 years to build (projecting NW), our NW would be 1M+ plus ability to pay off house plus a paid for airplane. What do you/y’all think?

That's really a question of lifestyle and risk tolerance.

A plane is a fairly easy purchase to get out of if you need to, so I personally wouldn't be too finicky about timing. If I'm good with working more to afford the plane, then I'm not going to be too fussy about when I pull the trigger.

ETA, I imagine you plan to continue working to support paying for the plane.

[Sandi_k]

My DH has one - an older Mooney.

He bought it in 2010, when the market was very depressed, as a sealed auction bid. Since his bid was all-cash, he got the plane.

He had been a member of a local flying club, but getting time on the planes he wanted became a thing, and there was overt pressure to not "ground" a rental plane, even it the pre-flight showed something not quite right. One example? The handle on the oil dipstick came off, so he couldn't check the oil level, and club management was mad that he noted the problem in the binder.

Since he has his own plane, he pays for insurance and a hanger nearby. He pays about $2k per year in insurance, and $3600 per year for the hangar. He does his own annual, with a local FAA-certified mechanic signing off on the work. (It takes ~ 2 months every year, but costs are minimal, as opposed to the $5k+ per year he was paying for a shop in NorCal to do it).

I would say you should buy it while you're still younger. DH had back surgery when he was barely 40, and he wasn't sure that he was going to get re-certified for his medical. Life is short - seize some fun along the way.

[Sailor Sam]

Not yet, but my wife tells me that we will, sometime soon. This has been an interesting thread.

[Dicey]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

My Dad was an ATC. He retired at 50, just as Reagan was swinging the hammer down. After that, he went to Enid for a year or so to hatch baby ATC's. He hated OK and being away from home, so he returned and eventually took a paper pushing job at his old facility. He enjoyed that for a few years, until he went to work one Monday, only to be told the funding for his job had ended the previous Friday.

My Dad was my inspiration to FIRE, although back then, the term didn't exist. He was the only person I knew who retired at 50. Since he had six kids, that was no mean feat. RIP, "Pops".

You might wonder why he went back. My Mom got her big dream job just as he was retiring. She didn't like him at home all day micromanaging every last thing, so she told him he could choose one: a job of some sort or a divorce. They were married fifty years. Smart man.

[REatc]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

My Dad was an ATC. He retired at 50, just as Reagan was swinging the hammer down. After that, he went to Enid for a year or so to hatch baby ATC's. He hated OK and being away from home, so he returned and eventually took a paper pushing job at his old facility. He enjoyed that for a few years, until he went to work one Monday, only to be told the funding for his job had ended the previous Friday.

My Dad was my inspiration to FIRE, although back then, the term didn't exist. He was the only person I knew who retired at 50. Since he had six kids, that was no mean feat. RIP, "Pops".

You might wonder why he went back. My Mom got her big dream job just as he was retiring. She didn't like him at home all day micromanaging every last thing, so she told him he could choose one: a job of some sort or a divorce. They were married fifty years. Smart man.

That was the main reason I chose the career, I could retire at 48 with a pension, and with full social security and health benefits. Now I have learned I could quit required work before that even, but 48 is still young I guess..

[dorf]

Aviation tickled my fancy for years.  I tried to figure out how to justify it financially for years.  A job in aviation, becoming a commercial pilot, did not interest me.  Eventually I realized that I was meeting all my financial obligations and I decided to become a pilot just because I wanted to.

I was able to capitalize on my aviation skills by being assigned to the aviation unit at work.  I also began the long process of building an airplane.  I also built an aircraft hangar that has covered the cost of most of my aviation endeavors and is worth about 4x what it cost me to build.  I also ended up purchasing an airplane.

For a few years, I flew quite a bit.  My wife does not want anything to do with aviation and refuses to have anything to do with flying in small planes.  I still go through spurts of flying and then times when I don't.  I really enjoy the people at my airport and look forward to my time at the airport. 

If it fits in with your plans financially, do it.  I would have a lot more in the bank account without aviation but what is the point in that?   

[Bateaux]

Thought about it when younger.  Flew several times with a friend who owned a plane.  Realized then just how expensive they can be.

[Dicey]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

My Dad was an ATC. He retired at 50, just as Reagan was swinging the hammer down. After that, he went to Enid for a year or so to hatch baby ATC's. He hated OK and being away from home, so he returned and eventually took a paper pushing job at his old facility. He enjoyed that for a few years, until he went to work one Monday, only to be told the funding for his job had ended the previous Friday.

My Dad was my inspiration to FIRE, although back then, the term didn't exist. He was the only person I knew who retired at 50. Since he had six kids, that was no mean feat. RIP, "Pops".

You might wonder why he went back. My Mom got her big dream job just as he was retiring. She didn't like him at home all day micromanaging every last thing, so she told him he could choose one: a job of some sort or a divorce. They were married fifty years. Smart man.

That was the main reason I chose the career, I could retire at 48 with a pension, and with full social security and health benefits. Now I have learned I could quit required work before that even, but 48 is still young I guess..

OMG, GIHA is wonderful! When i was approaching FIRE in pre-Obamacare days, healthcare was the biggest enigma. I admit, I was kind of jealous of my parent's solid-gold, affordable healthcare. I would absolutely stay until I qualified for lifetime coverage, no matter how big my stache was. How far away from that are you?

[Metalcat]

Thought about it when younger.  Flew several times with a friend who owned a plane.  Realized then just how expensive they can be.

"Can" being the operative word.

I had the opposite experience of realizing that owning a plane could be so much more affordable than I ever expected.

[REatc]

I'm considering a plane, but it depends on what career moves I make going forward.

It's really not that expensive if you are in a partnership. If you are looking to own by yourself, then I assume you have plenty of money you don't need, and in that case, why not fly?

Are you already a pilot?

Yes I’m a private pilot. Started flying at 16 and thought that was what I wanted to do as a job. As I talked to older pilots they said they better way is to become an air traffic controller then buy a plane yourself and fly whenever you want, or join the military. I chose the ATC route. I can build the plane I want for 100-200k over 5 years, if I tried to buy a certified airplane it’s either 30 yrs old or 500k+ for a new one. I’m young enough to see others I work with “afford it” but I can’t justify any luxuries until I’m FI and have my net worth compounding for me.

My Dad was an ATC. He retired at 50, just as Reagan was swinging the hammer down. After that, he went to Enid for a year or so to hatch baby ATC's. He hated OK and being away from home, so he returned and eventually took a paper pushing job at his old facility. He enjoyed that for a few years, until he went to work one Monday, only to be told the funding for his job had ended the previous Friday.

My Dad was my inspiration to FIRE, although back then, the term didn't exist. He was the only person I knew who retired at 50. Since he had six kids, that was no mean feat. RIP, "Pops".

You might wonder why he went back. My Mom got her big dream job just as he was retiring. She didn't like him at home all day micromanaging every last thing, so she told him he could choose one: a job of some sort or a divorce. They were married fifty years. Smart man.

That was the main reason I chose the career, I could retire at 48 with a pension, and with full social security and health benefits. Now I have learned I could quit required work before that even, but 48 is still young I guess..

OMG, GIHA is wonderful! When i was approaching FIRE in pre-Obamacare days, healthcare was the biggest enigma. I admit, I was kind of jealous of my parent's solid-gold, affordable healthcare. I would absolutely stay until I qualified for lifetime coverage, no matter how big my stache was. How far away from that are you?

5 years in currently... 20 more years until I could retire with full pension/healthcare.. yikes that’s a long time. I would be beyond fatFI at that point

[KarefulKactus15]

Thought about it when younger.  Flew several times with a friend who owned a plane.  Realized then just how expensive they can be.

"Can" being the operative word.

I had the opposite experience of realizing that owning a plane could be so much more affordable than I ever expected.

I was surprised also by how low it can be.  I'm also a fan of renting stuff like that and boats, so that's how I would lean.

I think about the only way I'd own one is if it was a little micro / ultra light that I took off from a field on my property and just tooled around sight seeing on a pretty day.

[scottish]

I have a friend/colleague who owns a biplane.   He does aerobatics.    Flying was his childhood dream, and when he had a windfall during the tech boom 20 years ago he acted on it.

I think it costs him about 30K CAD per year as the sole owner.   He does a lot of the maintenance himself.

[Posthumane]

Thought about it when younger.  Flew several times with a friend who owned a plane.  Realized then just how expensive they can be.

"Can" being the operative word.

I had the opposite experience of realizing that owning a plane could be so much more affordable than I ever expected.

This was my experience as well. While there isn't really an upper limit to how much one can spend on aviation, the lower limit is surprisingly minuscule if all you want to do is get up into the air. An eye opener came in university when I found out just how cheaply home built airplane kits sold for (this was the young, naive me before I knew the actual price of building was several times higher than the kit price, but still).

What always amused me is whenever my wife mentioned to any of her clients that we own an airplane many of them assumed we must be wealthy unless they were also pilots themselves. Meanwhile, many of them had huge 30'+ camper trailers and massive new pickup trucks to pull them, and spending several thousand a year to have a permanent campsite reserved for them was a run of the mill thing. Perceptions are a funny thing.

Eventually I capitalized on my flying hobby by joining the air force and getting them to pay for my flying/training.