Author Topic: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?  (Read 92773 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #700 on: April 16, 2020, 09:43:12 AM »
If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???


Maybe you were, but the simulation has hidden this fact from other people.

Dogastrophe

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #701 on: April 16, 2020, 09:49:20 AM »
My prediction wild ass guess for my Province:  about two weeks from now the Gov't will mandate masks for people out in public.  At same time they will start to allow business to reopen, with exception of sit down restaurants (quite difficult to eat a meal with a mask on). 

To me, this would make far more sense than the haphazard closures going on right now.  eg.  transit is exempt from the social distancing rules but the bus stop is not (they handed out fines to people in a bus shelter for not maintaining 6' from each other ... 10 mins later these same people would be sitting next to each other on the bus!), construction sites are still operating (6 guys crammed into a truck together driving to the site, then need to "try" an maintain distance while working.


frugalnacho

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #702 on: April 16, 2020, 09:59:32 AM »
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be. 

BNgarden

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #703 on: April 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM »
Infection rate maths from Germany, which can do 650,000 tests per week for a population of 83.2 million (2019).  (And Germany has more ICU beds per population than USA, I think?)

Enlightening, sub-titled part of a press conference w Angela Merkel:
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1250682200640704519

T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #704 on: April 16, 2020, 10:20:11 AM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...

lemanfan

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #705 on: April 16, 2020, 10:45:10 AM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

lemanfan

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #706 on: April 16, 2020, 10:50:42 AM »
For sweden, another factoid from the resturant business:

Many resturants here have "epidemic insurance", which will pay out if they are forced to close by the authorities in situations like this.  Since no closure is mandated yet, noone has gotten a cent from these insurances yet.  There has also been language analysis - are they even covered, this is a pandemic, not an epidemic outbreak...

Oh well.  Time will tell. 

Abe

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #707 on: April 16, 2020, 10:56:05 AM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

Thanks for reporting on the true situation in Sweden. I hope you all stay safe!

lemanfan

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #708 on: April 16, 2020, 11:02:26 AM »
Thanks for reporting on the true situation in Sweden. I hope you all stay safe!

You too.  We're all in this together now.

Jouer

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #709 on: April 16, 2020, 01:23:52 PM »
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it. 

wenchsenior

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #710 on: April 16, 2020, 01:36:43 PM »
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it.

Article of interest. Someone might have already posted upthread.  I have no idea how accurate it is...

https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Lews Therin

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #711 on: April 16, 2020, 01:47:36 PM »
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Also, if they were the same size as the US, they`d have about half the number of cases
(12,500 Cases, pop 10M) (pop 328M = 400,000 cases)
Deaths: 1,333  - if they were USA sized, 42656

How about that death count? Scarier now? That would be more than the USA. So they have deaths in currently higher proportion than the states.

Modified to change the numbers for todays, I was a week behind.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 01:53:42 PM by Lews Therin »

bacchi

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #712 on: April 16, 2020, 01:51:03 PM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...

Deaths per 1M

Sweden 132
Norway 28
Finland 14

That's a pretty big difference. The Swedes are apparently fine with that but it doesn't mean that lockdowns don't work.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #713 on: April 16, 2020, 02:00:46 PM »
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Right. Our municipal and state governments started asking people to stay home 5 weeks ago. For the following 2 weeks until all non-essential businesses were ordered to close/work from home, my husband's hobby store was making in-store sale numbers on par with (and on a couple of days, exceeding) Black Friday. The local parks systems have had to close increasing numbers of amenities, including bathrooms, because people were having parties. In other words, people were not staying home of their own accord and now we have a major outbreak in metro Detroit.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #714 on: April 16, 2020, 05:32:39 PM »
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be.

Why would our growth curve turn into the next Italy or Spain when it was nothing like that to begin with? Are you saying somehow the response the second time around would be tardier and less effective than the first time around (when we were less prepared and a bit late on the draw)?

Not every country follows that curve. It's ridiculous to say that in a country where we flattened the curve in about 10 days that the second wave would somehow turn us into Italy.

Dicey

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #715 on: April 16, 2020, 06:01:15 PM »
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.
I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it.
What Swedes are that we aren't is obedient. They are smart, they see what's going on in the world and they're staying the fuck home without being told to. See the difference? A lot of people in Michigan sure don't. And then there was that Bishop in Virginia...


Edited to fix sequence. Thanks,  LT!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:53:17 PM by Dicey »

Lews Therin

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #716 on: April 16, 2020, 06:01:53 PM »
@Dicey  you hid your message in the quote

Travis

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #717 on: April 16, 2020, 06:14:25 PM »
Straw man argument. No one's saying a lockdown wasn't necessary, but we're asking when it can be relaxed.

Note also that there are countries that have had more or less degrees of lockdown so it's not necessary for a "full" lockdown.

Easy to order a full lockdown in order to save lives but you also have to look at the economic cost of that lockdown including millions of unemployed and the problems - including suicides - that might bring down the track.

Today my state recorded an amazing total of *2* new cases of coronavirus. Out of 5 million. The whole country recorded 24. Out of 25 million. We are talking about continuing the lockdown for another 4 weeks. I'm not at all convinced that it is necessary; a few weeks ago we were talking about 3-6 months of lockdown, so clearly the situation is in flux, and I'm glad the brains trust is willing to reconsider timeframes as we go along.

It sounds like whatever you're doing is working. Maybe a little bit longer and it'll burn out? You mentioned your state, how's the rest of the country look? Here in Korea we declared the curve "flat" a week or so ago when we reached 80-100 infections per day.  We're now down into the 20s.  We're easing up on certain on-base businesses and facilities being open starting this weekend, but some folks immediately jumped to asking "well when can everything else be opened?"  Be patient people!  Nearly all of us here are US government salaried employees so the economic impacts are substantially less than the rest of the population.  The last thing you want in this scenario is a relapse, because then you get to start from scratch.  I haven't seen anyone in my social/work circle claiming the restrictions weren't useful, but some of them have an unhealthy desire to return to normal.

deborah

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #718 on: April 16, 2020, 06:30:53 PM »
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be. 
I’m with @Bloop Bloop on this. Let’s look at where bloop and I live. Australia. We have more testing per head of population than many other countries. Most cases have been from overseas, with a lot fewer internal cases (even though we’ve done so much testing). We have had 61 deaths, and just over 6000 cases in total, so we have a lower death rate per case detected than most other places (which also means that we are testing pretty well). We are currently down to less than 50 cases a day in the entire country.  We have effective lockdown measures that have worked.   We have one of the best health care systems in the world, and our politicians and health care system have been working together well during this emergency. We are working on measures that will work when lockdown is lifted in a few weeks - it’s not going to be lifted without measures in place.

However, we may have been too good in our response. It looks like we may have eliminated it from the country before we lift lockdown. That means that we’ll need to be very careful about letting anyone visit us, because we definitely won’t have herd immunity (if that even works).

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #719 on: April 16, 2020, 07:03:12 PM »

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.

We started off slack, but Australia is now testing fairly well. With the drop in active cases, there was a brief drop in testing - so they loosened the criteria. Basically anyone with cold or flu type symptoms can now get tested. My state of Victoria did 2,700 tests yesterday and got 1 new case out of it.


As well, there's a "flu tracker" system, where people report any flu-type symptoms. About 60,000 people are signed up for it, it's not a diagnostic tool, it's just a barometer for the seasonal flu - if a large chunk of those people report symptoms, then the health authorities know to prepare the wards for an influx of seasonal flu patients, and/or start hammering seasonal flu vaccines hard.

Anyway, the flu tracker app has shown a massive decline vs same time last year of flu symptoms; obviously the lockdown stopping the spread of covid has stopped the spread of seasonal flu, too. The point is that the Flu Tracker app which acts as a warning for seasonal flu can also act as a warning for covid. Even if we weren't testing, that'd help.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/coronavirus-numbers-flu-tracking-data/12134082

It can be done.


With 129 active cases in Victoria and 32 in hospital, just 97 people are sick at home; they will only be able to infect those they share the household with, if they haven't already (we don't know if those 97 are in 97 single apartments, or 20 five bedroom homes).

And the Chief Medical Officer has said he believes our testing has captured at least 84% of those infected, so there's at most another 18 people outside that group who don't know they're infected, and who could possibly infect others.

Currently our political leaders are struggling to deal with the success of what they've done so far. "The Premier said while today's numbers were good, community transmission remained a challenge." What, the 0-18 of them? They keep threatening further restrictions and having people fined for sitting on a park bench alone eating a kebab. But you know, politicians.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 07:04:56 PM by Kyle Schuant »

js82

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #720 on: April 16, 2020, 07:16:11 PM »
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

frugalnacho

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #721 on: April 16, 2020, 10:30:44 PM »
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Right. Our municipal and state governments started asking people to stay home 5 weeks ago. For the following 2 weeks until all non-essential businesses were ordered to close/work from home, my husband's hobby store was making in-store sale numbers on par with (and on a couple of days, exceeding) Black Friday. The local parks systems have had to close increasing numbers of amenities, including bathrooms, because people were having parties. In other words, people were not staying home of their own accord and now we have a major outbreak in metro Detroit.

I've been noticing more and more traffic every day for the last 2 weeks.


Dicey

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #722 on: April 16, 2020, 11:54:11 PM »
@Dicey  you hid your message in the quote
Fixed it.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #723 on: April 17, 2020, 04:56:06 AM »
If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???


Maybe you were, but the simulation has hidden this fact from other people.

Hell, it's even hidden from me.

T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #724 on: April 17, 2020, 05:21:54 AM »
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?

js82

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #725 on: April 17, 2020, 05:44:17 AM »
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?

Here's what you're missing:

Published work or not, 4 people coughing over petri dishes isn't a useful experiment for determining the effectiveness of marks at a population level.  It simply doesn't have the scale to properly assess the magnitude of an effect.  Something doesn't have to completely shut off transmission to be useful.

These articles are using a poor definition of "ineffective", and aren't measuring it in a way that truly assesses impact on macro-level transmission rates.

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.


The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 05:46:25 AM by js82 »

T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #726 on: April 17, 2020, 06:03:20 AM »
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?

Here's what you're missing:

Published work or not, 4 people coughing over petri dishes isn't a useful experiment for determining the effectiveness of marks at a population level.  It simply doesn't have the scale to properly assess the magnitude of an effect.  Something doesn't have to completely shut off transmission to be useful.

These articles are using a poor definition of "ineffective", and aren't measuring it in a way that truly assesses impact on macro-level transmission rates.

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.


The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.

I agree.  The study was very small and quite frankly the results could be wrong.  But then again, they could be right.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

What about that opinion.  Are they wrong?

If masks promote disease progression then people wearing masks are encouraging the spread.  It's possible, isn't it? 

Common sense isn't so common.  I try to base my knowledge on science whenever I can, knowing full well that sometimes I'm wrong because I have the same biases and distortions that everyone else has.  However, I spent a large chunk of my life basing my decisions on insecurity an fear, and that is where the destructive irrationality and behavior is more likely to occur.   Science isn't perfect, but it's all we've got, it's a lot better than reacting to myths, politicians or virtue signaling. 

If the placebo effect reduces anxiety and promotes more normal behavior I'm all for it, but until science shows masks are useful (which it probably won't), you won't see me wearing one.  Governor Cuomo will have to find someone else to manipulate...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:05:21 AM by egillespie »

js82

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #727 on: April 17, 2020, 06:19:02 AM »
I agree.  The study was very small and quite frankly the results could be wrong.  But then again, they could be right.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

What about that opinion.  Are they wrong?

If masks promote disease progression then people wearing masks are encouraging the spread.  It's possible, isn't it? 

Common sense isn't so common.  I try to base my knowledge on science whenever I can, knowing full well that sometimes I'm wrong because I have the same biases and distortions that everyone else has.  However, I spent a large chunk of my life basing my decisions on insecurity an fear, and that is where the destructive irrationality and behavior is more likely to occur.   Science isn't perfect, but it's all we've got, it's a lot better than reacting to myths, politicians or virtue signaling. 

If the placebo effect reduces anxiety and promotes more normal behavior I'm all for it, but until science shows masks are useful (which it probably won't), you won't see me wearing one.  Governor Cuomo will have to find someone else to manipulate...

The issue is summarized in one line:

Quote
We found no well-designed studies of cloth masks as source control in household or healthcare settings.

The problem is it's really damn hard to do a study on the effectiveness of masks as source control, as opposed to personal protection.  Looking at their protective effect for the user is much more straightforward - but the only ways to really assess the effectiveness of source control is to look at an isolated population using the methodology, and compare them with another population that isn't.  Very difficult to do that on the scale needed to get useful data.

More realistically, it's possible to model the projection of droplets from someone wearing a mask/not wearing a mask.  This could either be done through numerical simulation, or some data could be gathered via various imaging techniques (either looking for droplets, and/or tracing the path of exhaled CO2).

Intuitively, I'd expect a mask to reduce the distance that I could project droplets during a cough(and the quantity that would escape).  The larger ones are likely to hit the mask and stick; some of the smaller ones will likely go around and waft through the air(these ones aren't being projected as much as moving with air currents in the environment).  It's a very reasonable expectation that the total number/volume of airborne droplets would be reduced(but not eliminated) by the cloth mask.

Laura33

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #728 on: April 17, 2020, 07:40:33 AM »
Why would our growth curve turn into the next Italy or Spain when it was nothing like that to begin with?

Averages hide tremendous variability.  In the US, some specific areas are "Italy"; others are just fine.  The key is going to be how quickly we can shut down new outbreaks before they get out of control in specific hotspots.  We here in the US are behind that curve; sounds like Australia has much better systems in place.

I think the fundamental problem is that a huge part of the general public has trouble conceiving what exponential growth actually means.  This disease can hide for up to 14 days before you even know you're sick -- average incubation period I think is 5-6 days -- and yet you can be infecting others that whole time.  When you're in the peak of it, cases tend to double every 3 days or so.  That means that from the time you get exposed and start contaminating people to the time you (on average) will even know you're sick, the number of cases in your area could quadruple.  That's why/how/when hospitals get overwhelmed and the death rate skyrockets.  I saw one analysis that says acting two weeks earlier cuts the death rate of an outbreak by 90%, and one week earlier by 60%.  That's just a projection, of course; we can't really know.  But it illustrates how quickly this thing goes from zero to epidemic.  So unless/until we get some sort of early testing, the only way to control the spread is to impose serious restrictions long before most people think they are needed, and keep them in place long after most people think everything's ok.

With respect to masks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJvU81DKgk.  It's not about protecting yourself; it's about protecting other people from what you may have but not even know yet.  No, it's not perfect; we all have to breathe, and that air needs to go somewhere.  But wearing a mask of any sort limits how far you project droplets when you cough of sneeze, which will protect people a couple feet away from you.  In addition, there is suggestive evidence that the severity of the disease may be affected by virus load -- that is, that someone who has passing contact with the virus may get a less severe version than someone who is inundated with the little buggers.  So if you end up standing close to someone for a few minutes, you're probably better off if they have a mask on even if they do pass it on, because the smaller exposure is more likely to result in a mild illness. 

I think with all of these decisions, you need to weigh the potential benefits (magnitude of benefits x degree of certainty that you're right and it's actually going to happen) against the burden involved.  There is clearly a huge burden in shutting down the economy.  OTOH, the burden of putting a damn bandana across your face to protect your friends and neighbors is pretty small.

partgypsy

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #729 on: April 17, 2020, 11:16:12 AM »
Initially I was against wearing masks/bandanas for multiple reasons. That n95 masks should be going to medical or other personnel who have much higher exposure risk. That cloth masks have a fraction of filtering ability that a n95 mask (and a n95% actually only filters 95% of particles). Also that people who wear masks may relax in their 6 foot distancing behavior, which would kind of invalidate the whole thing.

I read a very good blog, which of course I can't find. But it reviewed that that measures that make incremental changes in transmitability, have big effects on the population level. 

What I do: when I go outside such as for a walk I avoid people and don't wear a mask. Often I don't even walk in the track but walk in the grassy areas to give everyone a wide berth. Same thing on porch, backyard.
If I am going into a store where it is unlikely I can maintain 6 foot distancing or where essentially it is a highly populated area where I'm repeatedly walking through other people's airspace, I wear a mask.

Contact with the virus and transmissibility is not an all or none thing. The likelihood of getting infected depends on the titer (dose) you get. There is some limited evidence that those who were exposed to higher titers, have more serious disease/outcomes.

So for me it's not all or nothing. I am not really doing it for "me." If I'm exposed to someone who gets in my airspace and is virulent, it is of limited protection. But I keep thinking I want to do SOMETHING for all the medical and healthcare workers who are on the front line, some places who are overwhelmed. It's a small thing I can do, and may mean that some parts of the US may open up sooner than if people were not wearing masks.




elaine amj

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #730 on: April 17, 2020, 11:20:29 AM »
The worrisome thing is that superspreader events can and have happened. A single asymptomatic person infecting so many more.

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T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #731 on: April 17, 2020, 11:37:37 AM »
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”

Missy B

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #732 on: April 17, 2020, 11:41:51 AM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.
The other is that the level of shared agreement about what's best for everyone, and the willingness of individuals to do what's best for everyone, is much higher there than other places. So if you bring in milder limitations and people follow them, you don't need stronger.
The Italians brought in milder restrictions first, they were ignored by a substantial part of the population, so they had to go full lockdown.
I'm sure the Swedes have many uncounted COVID cases, like nearly all other places. But I suspect their culture of physical distancing has helped control spread.

frugalnacho

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #733 on: April 17, 2020, 11:49:03 AM »
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”

Who is conducting these tests and are they reliable?  It seems like I've read dozen of articles about antibody testing and the general conclusion is always that they can't get reliable results yet, which is why nearly every country keeps talking about it but none have actually implemented it.  Color me skeptical that this single non-peer reviewed study has accomplished what no government has been able to accomplish yet. 

Missy B

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #734 on: April 17, 2020, 11:52:33 AM »

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.

The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.

This. Requiring non-medical masking of everyone in public would absolutely be impactful and would prevent resurgence as we scale back physical distancing. It seems to be a really hard sell in North America though. Too many people will only do something if it benefits them, not total strangers.

mm1970

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #735 on: April 17, 2020, 12:09:55 PM »
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”
Santa Clara county is one of the counties with a higher known infection total, compared to the rest of the state (Los Angeles notwithstanding).

Considering its proximity to SF, and the amount of visitors to the area, it is not out of the realm of possibility that a large # of people have already been exposed.

However, with limited testing, we really cannot know.  My own county only has 300 and some known infections, but we aren't testing enough.  Plus, I don't think we really know how many people are asymptomatic (completely).  It seems like when you get it, you KNOW, but if you aren't testing people who are only mildly sick or not sick, you really do not know.

It is going to be months before we really know.  Also, having antibodies doesn't mean you will fight it off, or cannot be reinfected.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:13:30 PM by mm1970 »

deborah

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #736 on: April 17, 2020, 12:41:43 PM »
I’d like to know how many people outside Australia have heard of the Ruby Princess debacle? Something I was reading says that it’s now the all time most fatal cruise, since 20 people are dead in Australia (there are some overseas as well) of Covid 19 from the one cruise (it’s also contributed at least 10% of the Australian cases and 30% of the deaths).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/nsw-police-probe-ruby-princess-voayges-question-passengers/12156940

lemanfan

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #737 on: April 17, 2020, 01:50:47 PM »
The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.

As a Swede: thank you. I'm glad you understand us.

The other day I had the longest conversation yet with an 85 year old woman who has lived in the same apartment building as me since I moved here in 1996.  The conversation was short, I basically gave her my number and told her to call me if she needed me to shop for her.  That led to a 3 minute conversation (at a distance), but still the longest we've had. :)

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #738 on: April 17, 2020, 02:10:56 PM »
The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.

As a Swede: thank you. I'm glad you understand us.

The other day I had the longest conversation yet with an 85 year old woman who has lived in the same apartment building as me since I moved here in 1996.  The conversation was short, I basically gave her my number and told her to call me if she needed me to shop for her.  That led to a 3 minute conversation (at a distance), but still the longest we've had. :)

Husband and I need to move to Sweden. I've been fascinated with it for decades, but I'm now sure we would love it. I genuinely like people...under controlled and limited circumstances. Your interaction with your neighbor sounds lovely.

T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #739 on: April 17, 2020, 02:21:59 PM »
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?

Anette

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #740 on: April 17, 2020, 02:25:00 PM »
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Where? It ain't happening in my state and we don't want it to.

Sorry, I actually believed you could see my location. I am in Germany. And I am glad it is happening but we do have a different situation than in the US

mm1970

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #741 on: April 17, 2020, 02:51:18 PM »
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?
I know a lot of Danes.  Some are like this (reserved), many are open and friendly.

Plina

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #742 on: April 17, 2020, 03:25:44 PM »
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.
The other is that the level of shared agreement about what's best for everyone, and the willingness of individuals to do what's best for everyone, is much higher there than other places. So if you bring in milder limitations and people follow them, you don't need stronger.
The Italians brought in milder restrictions first, they were ignored by a substantial part of the population, so they had to go full lockdown.
I'm sure the Swedes have many uncounted COVID cases, like nearly all other places. But I suspect their culture of physical distancing has helped control spread.

Not to mention the lack of travel that has mostly stopped due to lack of demand. Businesstravel stopped for more than a month ago due to company risk management and mpst of those that can work from home. The government had to make a deal with one of the airlines to continue flights to the northern parts of the country, otherwise they would have been shut down. Trains go with reduced capacity. Most of the people stayed home during eastern instead of going sling or to their vacation homes.

Missy B

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #743 on: April 18, 2020, 12:51:57 AM »
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?

You might enjoy "The Almost Nearly Perfect People" by Michael Booth. He talks about the different country's cultural similarities and differences. As I remember, the Finns are the most introverted of them all. They don't do random small talk at all, in fact they talk very much less. This is at least partly because they share a sense that they already understand what the other person is thinking, so why waste air babbling about it.
The homogenity of Nordic countries is and has been a strength historically - when everyone is like you, you feel understood and that you understand others. Everyone is on the same page.

In "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis he goes into the effect of the 2008 financial crisis in different countries. Iceland is particularly interesting because their investment banking was basically run by former fisherman, and Icelandic fisherman are apparently the most aggressive, risk-taking fishermen in the world. (In the book, even the even Russian fishermen, who are no pussies, say this).
There is a seam of super-machismo in Icelandic culture.

Dicey

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #744 on: April 18, 2020, 01:36:21 AM »
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Where? It ain't happening in my state and we don't want it to.
Sorry, I actually believed you could see my location. I am in Germany. And I am glad it is happening but we do have a different situation than in the US
You can choose to make your location public, if you don't there's no way to know.

I'm relieved that's not happening in the US yet. We're nowhere near ready for that.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #745 on: April 18, 2020, 02:44:47 AM »
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?

You might enjoy "The Almost Nearly Perfect People" by Michael Booth. He talks about the different country's cultural similarities and differences. As I remember, the Finns are the most introverted of them all. They don't do random small talk at all, in fact they talk very much less. This is at least partly because they share a sense that they already understand what the other person is thinking, so why waste air babbling about it.
The homogenity of Nordic countries is and has been a strength historically - when everyone is like you, you feel understood and that you understand others. Everyone is on the same page.

In "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis he goes into the effect of the 2008 financial crisis in different countries. Iceland is particularly interesting because their investment banking was basically run by former fisherman, and Icelandic fisherman are apparently the most aggressive, risk-taking fishermen in the world. (In the book, even the even Russian fishermen, who are no pussies, say this).
There is a seam of super-machismo in Icelandic culture.

I need to move to Finland

lemanfan

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #746 on: April 18, 2020, 03:56:04 AM »
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.



At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now. 

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #747 on: April 18, 2020, 04:26:57 AM »
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.



At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now.

I'm a New Zealander. We have sisu too. We call it "number 8 wire mentality". It means make it work with what you have, get a solution going and get on with it without drama. Number 8 wire is farm fencing wire. In a country of farms, it's everywhere and you can make just about anything out of it. To number 8 wire a solution means to make that solution out of non-standard components so you can just get on with things as fast as possible. That's why we will never run out of PPE - every locked down company up and down the country is making PPE from whatever they have access to. This is not government led. This is people in organisations of less than 10 employees saying 'shit, we can make that!'. We will also never run out of meat, beer and chippies (chips in a bag, crisps). When I go for a walk in my totally locked down town, I pass little tables outside people's houses where they are selling home sewn face masks, produce like apples and walnuts, flowers, eggs, baking, preserves, services like knife sharpening etc. Mostly text them and they'll arrange drop off but some are honesty boxes (you take what you want and put the money in their letterbox).

Imma

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #748 on: April 18, 2020, 04:27:41 AM »
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.



At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now.

I lived in Finland as a student and I would love to move back. I just wanted to add that people are friendly, kind and social there. It's not a hard, unfriendly place at all. On the contrary. They just don't feel the need to hug everyone and invade their privacy. And they are basically all preppers,. So they are doing well during this epidemic and they will do well if/when the Russians invade again. They are self-reliant independent people. I think the latter is typical for all the Germanic cultures. We are on a 'common sense' partial lockdown and this works very well because the vast majority of people thinks this is sensible and doesn't take unnecessary risks.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #749 on: April 18, 2020, 05:34:50 AM »
Hmm, Anna's #8 wire is our duct tape.  Canadians used to have that toughness, but I am not sure we still have it as much - the isolation and self-reliance caused by winter and farming were major contributors. 

I loved my 3 months in NZ, almost wish I were still there instead of here.