Author Topic: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?  (Read 92778 times)

BECABECA

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2020, 01:06:15 PM »
Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?

I agree with this. Haven't traveled internationally, come into known contact with anyone, and didn't have a fever over 100.4

... but I did use public transit in NYC last week
... and had a fever of 100.3 Mon morning
... went to bed Sunday night with a very sore throat, have had night sweats two nights in a row - and now my SO is experiencing a dry cough, chest tightness.

Not having cheap/ readily available testing is really killer. We probably just have a regular flu/ cold schmutz going around, but I'd sure like to rule out or be treated for COVID-19 before bronchitis sets in for my SO.

You could at least call your doctor and have them get you tested for the flu. Then if you don’t have the flu, you’d be more likely to be authorized to get tested for COVID-19 in the coming days when CDC inevitably will widen the list of who they consider for testing.

What is the significance of 100.4 fever vs. lower fever? From what I’ve read, even low grade fevers can be an indicator of COVID-19. I hope you both are at least staying home until you don’t have fevers anymore.

Telecaster

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2020, 01:17:16 PM »
Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

As an aside, there are still at three people in the US who rely on Iron Lungs, all elderly at this point.  Iron Lungs are no longer manufactured, but other types of ventilators are not as effective for this condition. 

https://gizmodo.com/the-last-of-the-iron-lungs-1819079169

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2020, 01:32:04 PM »
Here's a 27 minute investigative report from Simone Gao that questions whether the Chinese statistics and spin can be trusted. It was published 16 hours ago.

For anyone reading this, who like myself is 100% certain the Chinese figures are grossly falsified (and always have been), then the video — though very measured and professionally done — may raise your blood pressure just a little.

I can present strong logical reasons why the current figures, proudly claiming almost zero new cases in the whole of their vastly populated country, have to be nothing other than meaningless. It's very easy to do.  The video shows a lot of them. My frustrations really centre around the obedient, complicit reporting in the western media (combined with their lack of criticism of the WHO, which is criminally negligent at best). It's sometimes hard to watch all this play out.

Of course, we'll get the real picture from places like South Korea and Italy (with accurate testing and reporting), and other countries will follow suit soon, maybe France, Germany and Spain.  Not the US.

In the meantime, the non-Chinese world is being presented as somehow a bunch of bumbling Keystone Kops (which is partly true), while China is portrayed as a model of efficiency and organisation.  This is only true inasmuch as their uber-controlling police state has claws, teeth and a great deal of ruthlessness, with zero commitment to truth and individual respect of any kind.

https://youtu.be/_a7HaWqFh24
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 01:34:19 PM by happyuk »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2020, 01:46:24 PM »
There are some good graphs on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ to help get a sense of things.  I like to look at the logarithmic number of cases.  Italy's growth has started to reduce since Feb 23.  The US still has their growth growing at an increasing rate.  Talking about acceleration/first derivative here.  It's good to know if steps are being taken to slow acceleration.  The number of cases alone is a difficult metric to make use of.

PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2020, 01:57:30 PM »
Here is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.

skp

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2020, 02:05:56 PM »
I don't feel I have enough data.  As an ICU nurse  I wonder about factors that have nothing to do with virulence that could potentially effect the mortality rates of the virus.  It looks like elderly nursing home residents who already have preexisting conditions have the highest death rates.  But this same population could possibly already have DNAR orders. What I wonder is how many of their families simply limit how aggressive they want to treat?  We recently put my 93 year old mother in a nursing home.  I don't think I would aggressively treat her if she got coronavirus.  That being said, I agree that it is incredibly selfish to expose other people to a bacteria for anything other than emergency reasons.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 02:07:27 PM by skp »

dandarc

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2020, 02:09:40 PM »
Here is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus. Although I suppose reducing interactions, even if in a very limited way, will help some.

PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2020, 02:11:51 PM »
Here is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus.

I'm not an epidemiologist, but it seems designed to limit movement around the country. So even if you have a flare up in one town it doesn't make it to the neighboring town. Or if it does they aren't both overloading the local hospitals at the same time.

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2020, 02:14:29 PM »
Good point - so long as things aren't crazy everywhere at the same time, resources can be more easily redirected as needed.

Imma

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2020, 02:21:04 PM »
Here is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus. Although I suppose reducing interactions, even if in a very limited way, will help some.

I read that on average each patient infects 3 others. If we could even reduce that to 2, wouldn't that significantly reduce the speed of the spreading of the infection? That doesn't sound symbolical. I think there's also some thought behind not basically imprisoning people at home - that would probably lead to panic and is difficult to enforce in a democratic country. You'd need the military on the streets and special permits for those who need to go out and that's starting to sound like an disaster movie, not a sensible policy irl.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2020, 02:54:46 PM »
Using this winter as an example, if my family of 5 self quarantined every time one of us was sick we wouldn't have left the house since November.  If we needed to be tested for coronavirus each time one of us was sick that would have meant about 15 doctors visits. 

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2020, 03:42:56 PM »
I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

This is my problem.  I have terrible seasonal allergies right now and those are only going to get worse as spring comes.  I actually just hired a lawn service for first time in 5 years as I don't want doing my own lawn to make my allergies worse, etc. and cause sneezing/coughing that makes people around me panic.  Hopefully an expense I can get rid of after the summer months assuming this whole virus calms down in the fall.
Ditto... itchy face. Great time to have itchy nose and sneezing. Yes, some people will hate on you. Unfortunately, there hasn't been a mask for sale in MissyB town for weeks... or I'd wear one.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #112 on: March 10, 2020, 05:52:13 PM »
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.

I wanted to revisit this. A bunch of people work in one country and live in another, I believe that the colloquial term for them is "frontier workers." What you are proposing would be equivalent to closing the state borders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it politically or even economically practical? I'm not sure, what happens when power station workers can't get to work? Hospital workers? Checkpoints maybe, but closed?
Yes, this is common in a couple regions. Luxembourg and the surrounding area is a big one. Switzerland too. On any given day there are also thousands of business travelers between London and Paris. But in general, thankfully, Europeans in general tend to live closer to where they work than Americans.

As I've said before, you don't need to block everybody. You just need to block the people who don't have a "good reason", and what constitutes a "good reason" can be adjusted as needed.

MaaS

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #113 on: March 10, 2020, 06:05:41 PM »
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.
I get the feeling you have never been to my part of Europe. You certainly have no idea about our infrastructrure and about how we live our lives here, even if you may think you do.

This thread is amazing.

Let me clarify this:

I'm not saying shut down every border in Europe. Or that every person can, or should be stopped from crossing.

But, should France, Switzerland, and Austria have done more to limit travel from Italy? Absolutely. Now, it's too late. The rate of growth in Europe is insane and unfortunately, the U.S. isn't far behind now.

Missy B

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #114 on: March 10, 2020, 10:49:07 PM »
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.
Singapore does not f*** around.

Missy B

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #115 on: March 10, 2020, 11:11:43 PM »
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

SwordGuy

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2020, 12:14:25 AM »
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.
Singapore does not f*** around.

I don't blame them for being harsh with people who break quarantine.    Exile to some country stupid enough to accept them, plus confiscation of their wealth for being a pain in the ass and contributing to other people's medical bills, in lieu of summary execution is a viable option.



Bloop Bloop

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2020, 12:33:40 AM »
Yeah. Nah.


happyuk

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2020, 12:40:54 AM »
Honestly, if someone is directed to self-quarantine at home and they violate that quarantine for anything less than a true emergency or at the direction of the authorities, we should just summarily execute them.   With video.   And post it on social media and make it part of official government announcements that the media would be expected to cover in full.

Think of the photo of the Viet Cong spy that was summarily executed by an ARVN officer, only in color and on video.

Enough of those and the number people willing to violate home quarantine will drop significantly.

Think of it as preparation for when something as deadly as Ebola gets out.   It's only a matter of time before that happens, so the more we change the lackadaisical attitude people have about quarantine the better.

Jeeezus.  And you clearly consider yourself one of the good guys.  Have you considered relocating to China?  Or even better North Korea.  Peasants like you don't realise it's you that create the problems nobody else.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2020, 12:58:28 AM »
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.

FIRE Artist

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2020, 03:18:51 AM »
On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.


OT but I believe the deal with chicken pox is that it stays dormant in your body and can come back as shingles. if you avoid cp then you won’t get shingles later on in life, which really, really sucks, and can leave people with permanent nerve pain.  I have has cp, and believe me, will be going for my shingles vaccine as soon as I turn 50 (eligibility age here). I am not messing with that shit. 

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2020, 05:27:51 AM »
On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.


OT but I believe the deal with chicken pox is that it stays dormant in your body and can come back as shingles. if you avoid cp then you won’t get shingles later on in life, which really, really sucks, and can leave people with permanent nerve pain.  I have has cp, and believe me, will be going for my shingles vaccine as soon as I turn 50 (eligibility age here). I am not messing with that shit.

Chicken pox is usually mild in kids. Not always. The complications can be nasty.

Chicken pox is adults is a totally different story. It's serious, hospitalisation serious. I've had it and I've never been so sick. I lost whole days. The pox bit is just the annoying and itchy end to a 4 week can't-get-out-of-bed-or-move fever. That's why children are vaccinated. You absolutely do not want adult chicken pox. And fyi, you can get it more than once. Most people don't, but quite a lot do. Not shingles, actual chicken pox. Then of course, later you can get shingles. Shingles is incredibly painful and debilitating, and can easily cause hospitalisation also. Fun times. Get your kids the pox vaccine!

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2020, 05:31:58 AM »
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.

Last huge and really damaging pandemic was only 102 years ago. We definitely don't learn. Lucky for us that our immune systems do whether we like it or not.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2020, 06:26:08 AM »
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.

happyuk

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2020, 06:59:14 AM »
I wrote recently about not even trying to list the many reasons why the Chinese statistics are still manifestly false. But here's one of many clear indicators. It comes from this page:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-update-live-news-uk-health-minister-italy-lockdown-australia-us-china-stock-markets-outbreak-latest-updates

It only takes a moment's thought to see self-evidently that if China really had solved its Covid-19 problems, they'd be wanting every citizen to be shouting exactly that to the world on the net, and no censorship would be needed any more. They'd be encouraging private reports of their crisis being over now.

(I hope all the strange characters in this message become visible to readers out there! )

Quote
Chinese webizens are turning to ever more inventive methods to evade online censorship and spread the first-hand account of a Wuhan physician on the frontline of tackling Covid-19, writing it backwards, translating it into English, and even producing a Braille version.

The article, which was published on WeChat by People Magazine on 10 March, was “immediately deleted across the entire network”, according to a report from Radio Free Asia.

But the deletions only began a game of cat and mouse with the censors, as users firstly began using classic methods, like sharing screenshots of the contents, and then moved on to more inventive ways of obfuscating the text, including translations into Braille, Morse Code, English and Emoji.

Here’s a sample sentence: ❤芬曾🌶🗾‍🥘1⃣份🧣💗肺👁病👤‍💦病☠检测‍🐆🗻,她用红色👊出“SARS冠☄病☠”字🐑 ,当‍).

Other approaches included rewriting the entire text backwards, or writing it in “Martian”, by replacing every character with visually similar alternatives – so that the passage “艾芬曾拿到过一份不明肺炎病人的病毒检测报告” becomes the nonsense text “哎棼缯拿箌过┅份钚明肺燚病亡啲病蝳检测报告”.

Eventually, RFA reports, even those articles were deleted.

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2020, 07:07:13 AM »
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.
I'm part of a small group that's just been set up on WhatsApp of single people in my village, with the aim of checking in on each other and providing support/shopping/dog walking as needed if (when?) the virus gets to us.  I'm normally on the solitary side of independent but having this backstop feels good.

better late

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2020, 07:21:37 AM »
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.

I’m ok to ask for help and see it as less of a failure to plan than an acknowledgement that we’re human and sometimes can’t do it all ourselves (as hard as that is to admit) We are starting week two of quarantine and I am thrilled to have bananas and other fresh fruit left at our front door with nice and funny notes from friends.  Granted, we wouldn’t go hungry without the help-pantry and fridge are packed tight.

tygertygertyger

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2020, 09:03:04 AM »
My friends and I are talking about remotely playing board games. :-)


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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2020, 11:49:04 AM »
Honestly, if someone is directed to self-quarantine at home and they violate that quarantine for anything less than a true emergency or at the direction of the authorities, we should just summarily execute them.   With video.   And post it on social media and make it part of official government announcements that the media would be expected to cover in full.

Think of the photo of the Viet Cong spy that was summarily executed by an ARVN officer, only in color and on video.

Enough of those and the number people willing to violate home quarantine will drop significantly.

Think of it as preparation for when something as deadly as Ebola gets out.   It's only a matter of time before that happens, so the more we change the lackadaisical attitude people have about quarantine the better.

Jeeezus.  And you clearly consider yourself one of the good guys.  Have you considered relocating to China?  Or even better North Korea.  Peasants like you don't realise it's you that create the problems nobody else.

Ok,@happyuk, I'll admit to a bit of hyperbole to make my point about how serious quarantine is.

Right now there are 3 main approaches to quarantine.

There's the historical one.   Think plague ship.    Historically we would make everyone stay on board the ship until they all died or people stopped getting sick.      Safe for everyone off the ship, pretty hellish for everyone on the ship.  Typically only a few people on the ship are sick at first, but if they have to stay packed together in close quarters a whole lot of them will end up dying.  And if we have to create an ad-hoc quarantine facility on land, we keep putting people in it until no more of them have the disease.   Let's say there's a 2 week danger zone, so we have to keep them for 2 weeks.  One day 12 we need to put new people into the quarantine facility.  If this is an ad hoc facility, we may not be able to keep the new folks and the almost ready-to-leave folks separated.  So, on day 12 of 14, our original folks have to say another 14 days, for a total of 26.   Of course, if new people get added on day 25, now the original folks are stuck there until day 39!  With every new person added to the ad-hoc facility who mixes with the folks already there, we up the odds that the people in quarantine die.

So, we evolved to our current method.    Recognizing that most people on the ship or who came into contact with the sick person probably aren't sick, we let people self-quarantine in their own homes.   That way, society gets the benefit of quarantine and far fewer people on the plague ship end up dying.    Sounds like a win-win.

Except.

Except when people on home quarantine break quarantine because they are selfish pricks who endanger everyone else.   Except when the wrong person doing the wrong thing with the wrong disease causes a massive outbreak and thousands or up to 20 million people die.  (Yes, epidemics killing 20 million people world wide have happened in the last hundred and two years.)

And what's the legal penalty for breaking home quarantine?   I'm no lawyer, but a quick google search brought up 42 US Code 271, which provides for a fine of up to $1000 and/or 1 year in jail.

Ok, that's a bit stiffer than the "Boys will be boys, what can you do?" rape-culture defense thinks is appropriate for boys from well-to-do families or who are good at sports should get when they rape a girl, but not by much.

Surely "Attempted mass murder thru intentional and willful negligence" should be a crime that carries a higher fine than the cost of a $30 speeding ticket and the resultant increase in auto insurance rates. 

I think the 3rd way, "Boys will be boys", needs to be scrapped.  Breaking quarantine is deadly serious.   The crime should be breaking quarantine, NOT whether someone died because of it.  That way, the charges are simple, easily proven if guilty and no reasonable mitigating circumstances apply, and justice can be swift -- which is EXACTLY what is needed when needing to get people's attention about not breaking quarantine.


PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2020, 12:14:21 PM »
Except when people on home quarantine break quarantine because they are selfish pricks who endanger everyone else.   Except when the wrong person doing the wrong thing with the wrong disease causes a massive outbreak and thousands or up to 20 million people die.  (Yes, epidemics killing 20 million people world wide have happened in the last hundred and two years.)

Indeed, my family lost our patriarch and then our farm in the flu pandemic.

And what's the legal penalty for breaking home quarantine?   I'm no lawyer, but a quick google search brought up 42 US Code 271, which provides for a fine of up to $1000 and/or 1 year in jail.

Well there you go, an established penalty strong enough to discourage bad behavior without the need for summary execution or felony assault charges. It is more or less inline with the three month jail term on offer by Italy.

PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #130 on: March 11, 2020, 12:25:16 PM »
Also pertinent: Break a coronavirus quarantine in the US? Yes, you could face jail time

"These laws can vary from state to state and can be specific or broad. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor," the CDC wrote.
...
Violating Michigan's Public Health Code means a person could face fines up to $200 and up to six months in jail or both, said Lynn Sutfin, a spokeswoman for the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2020, 01:16:03 PM »
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.

Last huge and really damaging pandemic was only 102 years ago. We definitely don't learn. Lucky for us that our immune systems do whether we like it or not.

Most big works regarding climate change indicate a likely significant increase in pandemics and new diseases, so as long as we solve that problem in the next few years there should be no reason to worry.  :P

happyuk

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2020, 03:31:30 PM »
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.

PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2020, 03:34:38 PM »
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.
...
Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

Wow, the WHO looks competent next to the CDC. I guess that everything is relative.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2020, 05:47:01 PM »
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.

Have to say that I've been surprised that both WHO and CDC are updating their websites only once per day and only Monday through Friday in a rapidly changing pandemic situation. It seems frickin irresponsible. The major universities are doing a far better job keeping basic information up to date.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2020, 06:06:26 PM »
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #136 on: March 11, 2020, 06:52:14 PM »
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.

Have to say that I've been surprised that both WHO and CDC are updating their websites only once per day and only Monday through Friday in a rapidly changing pandemic situation. It seems frickin irresponsible. The major universities are doing a far better job keeping basic information up to date.




You can blame Trump for how the CDC is currently performing.

SEdude

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #137 on: March 11, 2020, 07:00:36 PM »

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2020, 09:12:41 PM »
Lots of good data and visualizations in this post: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


Thanks for posting that link.  Everyone should take a look at it, so you'll have the big picture about how to prepare & how to help prevent the worst case scenario.

Abe

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2020, 09:49:16 PM »

better late

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2020, 10:15:15 PM »
Lots of good data and visualizations in this post: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


Thanks for posting that link.  Everyone should take a look at it, so you'll have the big picture about how to prepare & how to help prevent the worst case scenario.

+1
Excellent article

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #141 on: March 11, 2020, 10:34:35 PM »
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

PDXTabs

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #142 on: March 11, 2020, 10:50:43 PM »
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ is good if you want to drill down on one country.

mwulff

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2020, 01:01:13 AM »
Here is a sit-rep from Denmark. We have been hit somewhat hard by the Corona virus since our entire country tends to go skiing in the Italian Alps...

Yesterday evening our Primeminister announced the following:

- All non essential public employees are being sent home for two weeks. Excluding health-care, elderly-care and some day-care personel.
- All schools, universities and other educational facilities are closed
- All public events with more than 100 people are cancelled.
- Bars, restaurants, night clubs etc. have been asked to voluntarily close down for 14 days. (There is no law here to force the issue)
- Private employers are being asked to send as many people as possible home. Working from home, vacation time are all options here. If possible close up shop for 2 weeks.

Other things that have happened:

- Many retired doctors and nurses have volunteered if our national healthcare system start buckling from the pressure. They do this knowing full well the risks if they get infected.
- People shop for crazy amounts of food. Hopefully this will pass since there is food enough for everyone.

Basically the entire country has shut down. I will post status updates as I get them.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #144 on: March 12, 2020, 01:06:54 AM »
Sit-rep from NZ:

Um.... no change. People were buying toilet paper but soon realised that was just peer pressure! There are supposedly checks and self isolation type things at the border. Day to day no change at all for most people.

DadJokes

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #145 on: March 12, 2020, 05:56:55 AM »
How's this for stupid?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/jazz/2020/03/11/rudy-gobert-nba-jazz-joked-coronavirus-touched-reporters-recorders-interview/5028089002/

NBA player tests positive for CV. Two days earlier, he was joking about the virus and making a point to touch every microphone and recorder that reporters had.

The NBA has now suspended their season, and I would guess that the NCAA and NHL are soon to follow suit.

Reader

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #146 on: March 12, 2020, 06:31:48 AM »
Here's a 27 minute investigative report from Simone Gao that questions whether the Chinese statistics and spin can be trusted. It was published 16 hours ago.
you don't have to believe what they say. just watch what they do. there are still restrictions between beijing the capital and the other cities in china. anyone who comes into beijing will be quarantined for two weeks. so china is only truly safe when they open up the travel restrictions fully between beijing and all cities of china.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/15/asia/coronavirus-covid-19-update-intl-hnk/index.html

Zoot

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #147 on: March 12, 2020, 06:56:00 AM »
On a light-hearted note:

Here is a sit-rep from Denmark.
Sit-rep from NZ:

Today I learned the word sitrep.  ;-)

I can't believe I've never come across this incredibly useful word before--and I fully intend to incorporate it into my vocabulary!  I will forever associate it with the COVID-19 time in my life.  ;-)

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Boofinator

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Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
« Reply #149 on: March 12, 2020, 07:56:29 AM »
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 09:12:38 AM by Boofinator »