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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Miss Piggy on March 08, 2020, 07:04:07 PM

Title: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Miss Piggy on March 08, 2020, 07:04:07 PM
Like most areas, coronavirus stories in the midwest are evolving. The latest involves a college student who was studying abroad this semester in Italy. She came back to the US earlier this week, after spending weeks in the thick of the virus in Italy. She is now the first confirmed case in the state of Missouri.

Here's what's been shared so far:
- Symptoms started on Wednesday; she and her parents continue going about their daily lives.
- Symptoms got worse on Friday; she went to an ER and tested positive for Coronavirus. Sent home to be quarantined, along with mom and dad. Honor system, no supervision of the quarantine. Because that has worked SO well in other cases.
- Now we're finding out that not only was she not smart enough to quarantine herself upon arriving in the US (again, after spending weeks surrounded by this virus), but she took an Amtrak train from Chicago to St. Louis, exposing everyone in her train car.

HOW FUCKING STUPID/SELF-ABSORBED/NAIVE/IRRESPONSIBLE CAN SOMEONE BE???????

And really, how did authorities not force a quarantine for all of these students who are returning home from Italy because of the virus? How is that any different from getting off of a heavily-infected cruise ship? WTF?

Stories like this are examples of why this virus is going to spread completely uncontrolled in the US. Yeah, I'm sure some of you are reading this and thinking, "It's gonna spread no matter what..."  You're right--because of people like this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 08, 2020, 07:06:16 PM
People smoke while pregnant, drink while pregnant, drink and drive, gamble away their life savings, etc.

On the scale of human fallibility I wouldn't call this case even close to the worst case example.

Especially given the death rate for those under 40 is 0.2% and the virus is quite mild in most cases.

Not defending the actions, but just saying that in context, I see a lot more brazen stupidity every single day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 08, 2020, 07:32:14 PM
Like most areas, coronavirus stories in the midwest are evolving. The latest involves a college student who was studying abroad this semester in Italy. She came back to the US earlier this week, after spending weeks in the thick of the virus in Italy. She is now the first confirmed case in the state of Missouri.

Here's what's been shared so far:
- Symptoms started on Wednesday; she and her parents continue going about their daily lives.
- Symptoms got worse on Friday; she went to an ER and tested positive for Coronavirus. Sent home to be quarantined, along with mom and dad. Honor system, no supervision of the quarantine. Because that has worked SO well in other cases.
- Now we're finding out that not only was she not smart enough to quarantine herself upon arriving in the US (again, after spending weeks surrounded by this virus), but she took an Amtrak train from Chicago to St. Louis, exposing everyone in her train car.

HOW FUCKING STUPID/SELF-ABSORBED/NAIVE/IRRESPONSIBLE CAN SOMEONE BE???????

And really, how did authorities not force a quarantine for all of these students who are returning home from Italy because of the virus? How is that any different from getting off of a heavily-infected cruise ship? WTF?

Stories like this are examples of why this virus is going to spread completely uncontrolled in the US. Yeah, I'm sure some of you are reading this and thinking, "It's gonna spread no matter what..."  Your right--because of people like this.

Wow.  I hadn't heard about that, but that's pretty bad.  And then you have those contaminated surfaces, so other passengers boarding later were infected also.

I agree with you 100%.   Very frustrating that so many people are so irresponsible.  I think those arrivals from Italy definitely should have been quarantined.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 08, 2020, 07:40:48 PM
Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MyAlterEgoIsTaller on March 08, 2020, 08:28:41 PM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on March 08, 2020, 08:28:51 PM
Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.
Yup. My bf told me today that he saw something on Reddit (so who knows if its true) that one of the first people dx'd with covid in Washington state stayed at home but his wife was out toodling around like usual. And that they were given no instruction to both quarantine themselves.

Meanwhile, people who actually need masks because they are sick can't get them because of hoarders, and those of us who who aren't worried about supply chain issues are also having to rush out and buy toilet paper and lysol wipes just so that we have them when we run out.

We have people simultaneously acting like COVID is nothing, and acting like its bubonic plague. Because of the slow action and refusal to enforce quarantine, stop flights etc it will be endemic.
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on March 08, 2020, 08:29:13 PM
- Symptoms got worse on Friday; she went to an ER and tested positive for Coronavirus.

Ok, that's the most encouraging thing about Coronavirus I've seen so far. Seriously. We haven't been testing enough, and hopefully that's changing.

As far as people being stupid...I should know better by now. It shouldn't surprise me any more. But it does. Just not quite as much as it used to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on March 08, 2020, 08:31:09 PM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.

Sometimes I think we should bring back the stocks...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 08, 2020, 09:01:07 PM
A lot of people are taking their cue from 45 and aren't taking this seriously. They are convinced that libs are blowing this out of proportion for political reasons.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 08, 2020, 09:28:15 PM
A lot of people are taking their cue from 45 and aren't taking this seriously. They are convinced that libs are blowing this out of proportion for political reasons.

Not just from him. Bernie Sanders held a big campaign rally in my hometown yesterday and has another one scheduled tomorrow. As far as I know, Joe Biden hasn't cancelled any rallies either. Of course the average person on either side of the left-right spectrum isn't going to think it's a big deal when election politics is business as usual.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedom2016 on March 08, 2020, 10:10:16 PM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.

Source of the bolded? I can't find any articles that say more than he was a hospital worker at Hitchcock.

Tuck cancelled all in-person classes from Wednesday onward. My source: an adjunct faculty member there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: hops on March 08, 2020, 10:20:15 PM
The stupidity doesn't end there, as it's being reported this evening that the father and sister of the girl OP refers to broke their self-quarantine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Monerexia on March 08, 2020, 10:32:25 PM
Also a problem with incentives--if someone thinks they might have it they have nothing personally to gain--unless they are seriously personally ill--and a very likely very expensive quarantine paid for by them to lose if they come forward. Few people will be altruistic in such a situation; look at the rush for the gates in Italy. If humans could be counted on to be this altruistic we would all have become communists long ago haha.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 08, 2020, 10:33:51 PM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MyAlterEgoIsTaller on March 08, 2020, 10:40:42 PM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.

Source of the bolded? I can't find any articles that say more than he was a hospital worker at Hitchcock.

Tuck cancelled all in-person classes from Wednesday onward. My source: an adjunct faculty member there.
Many sources, both local and national, that state that he's a medical resident.  Here's one:  :  https://www.wcax.com/content/news/DHMC-confident-no-patients-put-at-risk-from-virus-infected-medical-resident-568568351.html

The statement that he is a resident in epidemiology was made in one of the press conferences - I will try to find the video.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: jlcnuke on March 09, 2020, 05:13:02 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

Which is why you're supposed to cough into a tissue or other similar surface, or barring that, your elbow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 09, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
So...if you are HIV positive and sleep with someone without telling them, you can be charged with a crime.

If you are positive for a communicable disease, told to self-quarantine, and disregard that, shouldn't that also be a (lesser) crime? You're directly putting other people at risk.



Despite the disease spreading, I still went to a board game convention this weekend, where hundreds of people are all handling the same board game pieces. The organizers did put hand sanitizer stations all over the place, and many people were carrying their own little bottles (including me).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MaaS on March 09, 2020, 07:16:37 AM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Miss Prim on March 09, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
Yes, people are stupid, but we also have parents not vaccinating their children and potentially putting infants and people who can't get vaccinated at risk also.  You can't fix stupid and as far as I know, it is not a crime.  Life is a gamble anyway. 

If you are elderly or immunocompromised, you probably want to try to self quarantine as much as possible.  If you are younger and in good health, you will probably be fine.

                                                   Miss Prim
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Car Jack on March 09, 2020, 07:34:08 AM
My wife works in a rehab/nursing facility per diem.  She worked Saturday night.  She says the entire facility has 1 box of gloves remaining and no masks.

Their management doesn't care.  I told her to quit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 09, 2020, 07:51:44 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

Which is why you're supposed to cough into a tissue or other similar surface, or barring that, your elbow.

...which is something that people don't do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dougules on March 09, 2020, 08:00:13 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

Thanks for that graphic.  I was starting to wonder if all the drastic measures to contain the virus were pointless now, but that illustrates that it's still worth some sacrifice to slow it down. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: TrudgingAlong on March 09, 2020, 08:18:49 AM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.

Since most of the east coast cases began from ppl traveling here from abroad (like the op’s post referenced), doubt this would really stop it. Maybe restricting most movement around the entire states.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: UncleX on March 09, 2020, 08:26:01 AM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on March 09, 2020, 08:32:46 AM
Wow.

OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.

I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Reader on March 09, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on March 09, 2020, 08:36:24 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

Thanks for that graphic.  I was starting to wonder if all the drastic measures to contain the virus were pointless now, but that illustrates that it's still worth some sacrifice to slow it down.

Yes. The point of all the quarantines, etc is not to stop the virus. It's to slow the spread so it doesn't overwhelm our hospitals. If everyone is sick at the same time, there are not enough beds, not enough respirators, not enough healthcare workers to treat patients, and more will die. I think we will know a lot more about how well things are being contained in the next couple months.  The issue is people who are self employed and also those who are not insured, under insured, have basically no incentive to self-quarantine other than altruism. Actually negative incentive because they won't be paid if they self quarantine. My belief is public health = personal health and vice versa. If you have poor public health support it leads to poor overall personal health outcomes. The US is better now (with the ACA) than it was say 10 years ago in that MORE people are insured and able to get healthcare. But there are still a lot of gaps, and probably many people afraid to get care, treated and tested because of fears of healthcare costs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Reader on March 09, 2020, 08:39:14 AM
OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.
she should stay home to rest if she's not well. not all have fever.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Steeze on March 09, 2020, 08:39:45 AM
Yeah, the self quarantine is a joke. I traveled from China to the US at the end of January. CDC took my contact info, told me to self quarantine if possible, and never followed up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on March 09, 2020, 08:41:42 AM
OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.
she should stay home to rest if she's not well. not all have fever.

Well dang. She's at school today. What about the rest of the week? She didn't seem sick this morning but def was this weekend.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bucksandreds on March 09, 2020, 08:42:50 AM
Many more Americans will die from this than Chinese. We will eventually wake up and most major cities will be ghost towns for a few weeks to let the spread die down like China. People will be forever scared of the next event, however
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 09, 2020, 08:49:52 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: EngineerOurFI on March 09, 2020, 09:03:32 AM
I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

This is my problem.  I have terrible seasonal allergies right now and those are only going to get worse as spring comes.  I actually just hired a lawn service for first time in 5 years as I don't want doing my own lawn to make my allergies worse, etc. and cause sneezing/coughing that makes people around me panic.  Hopefully an expense I can get rid of after the summer months assuming this whole virus calms down in the fall.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 09, 2020, 09:13:01 AM
Here in Italy, everyone is up in arms because someone leaked the presidential decree quarantining the "red zone" (ie Lombardia, most of the Veneto, parts of Emilia Romagna and Le Marche) to the press the day before it was signed.  So a lot of people who live in places like Milan for work but have extended family down south got on trains or drove south to their extended families before decree went into effect, thereby potentially infecting a ton of people south of the "red zone".

 I've also seen reports that wealthy Milanesi with summer houses in places like Tuscany (which is not in the red zone) drove down to their summer houses before the order went into effect thereby infecting people in Tuscany.  People who live in these resort towns in Tuscany are now complaining about people with Milan accents going out to dinner every night in their towns, going to the beach and treating the quarantine like a lovely extended holiday.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tipster350 on March 09, 2020, 09:13:17 AM
Sam Sweeney
@SweeneyABC
BREAKING: A D.C. priest has Coronavirus. He offered communion and shook hands with more than 500 worshippers last week and on February 24th.  All worshippers who visited the Christ Church in Georgetown must self-quarantine. Church is cancelled for the first time since the 1800's
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on March 09, 2020, 09:14:14 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 09, 2020, 09:15:46 AM
Sam Sweeney
@SweeneyABC
BREAKING: A D.C. priest has Coronavirus. He offered communion and shook hands with more than 500 worshippers last week and on February 24th.  All worshippers who visited the Christ Church in Georgetown must self-quarantine. Church is cancelled for the first time since the 1800's

One good thing is that here in Italy no one is shaking hands or kissing cheeks anymore as a greeting (I'm not in the Red Zone) but instead everyone is either blowing kisses from more than a meter away or doing a Japanese style bow.  I'm even doing this with my kids at bedtime.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 09, 2020, 09:16:41 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

And if you want to look for a silver lining, the effect of 5+% of people over 60 dying may actually be pretty beneficial long run. Less pollution, extending social security solvency, and redistributing a good chunk of wealth are all potential benefits.

Of course, if you are elderly, worried about SORR, one of the unlucky 0.2%, or concerned about elderly friends/family, then those potential benefits might pale in comparison to the current concerns.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 09, 2020, 09:18:25 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

I'm in the most affected part of my country, and the people who are diagnosed now don't have a direct link to the known cases. My grandma has chosen to basically self-quarantaine. She's pretty level headed - she lived through polio and TB epidemics and famine - so she's not too worried, but staying at home is common sense. I know that even in her age category 80% survives, but I'd rather she avoids it until there's a vaccination.

The government guidelines in my area say you should stay at home when you're having a fever or cold symptoms. Firstly because it's not clear how much corona has spread, secondly to avoid panic, thirdly because we don't need more influenza patients in hospital at this point. As far as I know most people follow those guidelines.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 09, 2020, 09:22:39 AM
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.

Here in Italy, the penalty is 3 months in jail for breaking the quarantine by leaving the red zone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 09, 2020, 09:33:49 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

Thanks for that graphic.  I was starting to wonder if all the drastic measures to contain the virus were pointless now, but that illustrates that it's still worth some sacrifice to slow it down.
Whether or not it gets slowed down enough will be known in retrospect only I think.  ~ten days of no symptoms while being infectious means that diagnoses are lagging indicators.  The spread of the virus will eventually slow due to other factors.  China has shown that quarantine is definitely effective.  Their cases have slowed in growth dramatically, but at a significant cost.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 09, 2020, 09:35:45 AM
Wow.

OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.

I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

I have allergies/sinus issues. I sneeze and sometimes cough, year round. I cover my cough and sneezes as best I can. I do what I can to mitigate it. But realistically, I go through a lot of kleenix sometimes. If anyone wants to freak out I can't stop them. But I will tell them it's allergies when it is. And since I'm a very crabby sick person, I try to avoid people anyway when I'm sick. This just makes it even easier!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: zygote on March 09, 2020, 10:21:14 AM
Yeah, it's really difficult to know what to do with the lack of testing.

My wife also has allergies, and has a basically chronic cough and runny nose this time of year. We assumed that's what her current cough was...until I got a runny nose/slight cough too this weekend. It feels like a regular cold, and we have no known exposure to the coronavirus. No fever or anything. But we also live in a populated city that's starting to have more and more cases, so who knows if we came into contact with someone who hasn't been diagnosed yet.

I really wish we could just test ourselves and know either way. My job is somewhat time sensitive and can't be done at home, so I don't want to quarantine myself for a regular cold. I've settled for coming into work and just not touching anything on public transit/staying away from other people. And washing my hands like crazy. I'm coughing so little I don't even have to worry about covering it (which I would). I just feel crappy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on March 09, 2020, 10:22:25 AM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.

Oh that's just a head-shake moment.  Bravo.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: erutio on March 09, 2020, 10:42:12 AM
The family was asked to self-quarantine on Thurs.  Yet on saturday, the father and sister of this individual went to a high school father-daughter dance, which had students attending from two different schools.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SimpleCycle on March 09, 2020, 10:50:01 AM
There was a twitter thread posted here the other day that outlined some potential worst-case scenarios.  One of the replies on twitter contained this graph.  Hopefully the outbreak resembles the blue part, not the red part.

People don't see themselves as individuals in a group and many people don't understand statistics.  Some also don't care, or make risky decisions frequently and this is just another choice.

I went to the grocery store today at 8am to stock up a bit and there were maybe four other people in the store.  One of them was walking around, open mouth coughing.  Not sure if that is preferable to cross-contaminating stuff in the store after coughing into your hand.

I return to work tomorrow and if I get this virus it will probably from work, or from a store.  Feeling pretty powerless about the situation.  I doubt it will hurt me if I get this virus but I worry about my elderly grandmother and mother.

I like that graphic, thanks for sharing.

I am pretty sure I know which Twitter thread you mean, and the scenarios in it are not very accurate.  She chose 6 days as a doubling time which is very aggressive, and claimed that we'd need more than 6MM masks a day, which is barely in the ballpark even if you assume this is 10x worse than an average flu season.  And 10x worse than the average flu season estimate comes from the American Hospital Association, who seemed to assume we wouldn't use any public health measures to stop the spread.

Anyway, Pete has a blog post about this where he makes the point that CDC estimated Ebola cases in 2014 were modeled to be 550k to 1.4MM, and it turned out that with public health measures, it was held to 28,600 cases.  Public health works!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 09, 2020, 12:02:07 PM
Honestly, if someone is directed to self-quarantine at home and they violate that quarantine for anything less than a true emergency or at the direction of the authorities, we should just summarily execute them.   With video.   And post it on social media and make it part of official government announcements that the media would be expected to cover in full.

Think of the photo of the Viet Cong spy that was summarily executed by an ARVN officer, only in color and on video.

Enough of those and the number people willing to violate home quarantine will drop significantly.

Think of it as preparation for when something as deadly as Ebola gets out.   It's only a matter of time before that happens, so the more we change the lackadaisical attitude people have about quarantine the better.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 09, 2020, 12:11:23 PM
One of the first two people to be diagnosed in New Hampshire was tested last Friday, told to self-quarantine while waiting for test results, disregarded that and went to an event in Vermont with 200 people at it Friday night, and the test result came back positive Saturday.  The event venue closed voluntarily for several days and canceled other events, and several people who he came in contact with were told by the states' health departments to self-quarantine.  The kicker: the guy who did this is a hospital resident in epidemiology.
oh my really?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dougules on March 09, 2020, 12:12:01 PM
If someone knowingly goes out and infects somebody else, could it be considered assault?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 09, 2020, 12:14:36 PM
OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.
she should stay home to rest if she's not well. not all have fever.
Same.  My big kid was sick last week with sore throat and cough.  Stayed home 3 days.  He's better.

No known cases in our county, but who knows?  I don't expect a teenager to be too symptomatic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: FIRE Artist on March 09, 2020, 12:37:57 PM
If someone knowingly goes out and infects somebody else, could it be considered assault?

There is precedent for STI cases who knew they were infected but chose to have unprotected sex without disclosing their STI status to their partner being charged with assault, so I assume it could be.  But, there likely would have to be an actual diagnosis, not just a contact advised to self quarantine. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MyAlterEgoIsTaller on March 09, 2020, 01:22:08 PM
If someone knowingly goes out and infects somebody else, could it be considered assault?

The NH and VT news had a bunch of articles about that last week, after the Unbelievably Stupid Doctor Incident. 
The legal experts said: it depends, both on the state, and on what exactly the person knew.  In this particular case, the person was only advised by medical personnel to self-quarantine - so there was no official order for him (although now of course there is).  Also he was only presumed positive at that point, based on symptoms and travel history - the test result hadn't come back yet. 

And even if he had been officially positive and there had been an official quarantine order, he could only be charged with a misdemeanor in NH, and not with anything like assault.  In some other states there could be felony charges, if there had been a positive test result and an official quarantine notice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SimpleCycle on March 09, 2020, 01:23:03 PM
I have been hanging out at home with community-acquired pneumonia for almost two weeks.  I have left the house three times - twice to go to the doctor and once to go to the grocery store after I had already finished all my antibiotics.  At some point I am going to have to leave the house, but I still have a nasty cough and have been told to expect to have it for another 2-4 weeks.  I am not sure what to do, other than cover my cough and let people look at me like I'm a murderer.

I emailed my mother and my in-laws with what the recommendations are for older adults.  As someone with three family members over 70, the "it doesn't affect healthy prime age adults much" argument falls pretty flat.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 01:52:57 PM
Also a problem with incentives--if someone thinks they might have it they have nothing personally to gain--unless they are seriously personally ill--and a very likely very expensive quarantine paid for by them to lose if they come forward. Few people will be altruistic in such a situation; look at the rush for the gates in Italy.

Not to mention this is the USA. You have to pay out of pocket to get tested and then again to stay home from work. This is not true in all countries.

If society would like individuals to get tested and stay home, perhaps society should incentivize that behavior.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: G-String on March 09, 2020, 03:29:10 PM
Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.
I refuse to get the flu shot because I d not trust the government, and have had the flu a few times.  It is unpleasant but I always recover. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 09, 2020, 03:30:33 PM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.

You are simplifying things somewhat.  Europe actually has no meaningful borders, which is why it now has a true epidemic, and is why it has spread so fast.

Many who've not lived or travelled in Europe may not understand that borders can NOT be closed. It's just impossible. You can cross freely from any country into another in hundreds of ways, without ever stopping, just like US state borders.  Quarantining a small town or city is probably much easier. But restricting travel between countries, no chance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 09, 2020, 03:37:17 PM
Some further thoughts.

The outbreaks in Iran and Italy do suggest the possibility of a more aggressive, virulent strain. Chris Martenson, a PhD toxicologist, is calling for this to be gene-sequenced soonest, though I'd be confident this is already being done. Martenson's daily updates are in my opinion, the best on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD2-QVBQi48RRQTD4Jhxu8w (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD2-QVBQi48RRQTD4Jhxu8w)

If it is mutating, this will be like trying to hit a moving target from a vaccine-creation point of view. No standard vaccines may be possible.

I'm concerned about the reliability of testing. There's plenty of circumstantial, statistical evidence (and a number of well-recorded cases) to suggest that there are MANY false negatives. (I strongly suspect the patient in Ecuador a month ago, who came from China and soon after died of multiple organ failure, and who the CDC said did not have the virus, was a false negative.)

It's bewildering that many authorities in different countries do NOT seem to be aware of all the formally reported articles in medical literature about incubation periods and asymptomatic transmissiveness. Despite good intentions or strong words (often for PR purposes), containment attempts outside of China are often weak, half-hearted, indecisive, uncoordinated, and/or incompetent. And evidently ineffective. The response in the US should be embarrassing to the White House (and may yet prove to be).

Checks at airports or checkpoints using 'temperature guns' are of almost no use or value at all. That worked with SARS, but not with this thing.

It's not contained in China — not at all.  I do not think it is even containable. The virus is now in Africa (Egypt, Algeria, Nigeria) and Latin America (Brazil, Mexico). It can't be contained in either continent. It's just impossible, too. (And there's no 5G there. 5G symptoms, which I'm sure are 100% real and potentially serious, can't themselves be transmitted from person to person.)

The stock markets will continue to fall out the sky. Where that domino chain will go, heaven knows. Supply chains of just about everything not locally grown or made will be affected, or in some cases just come to a halt.

I'll say this once, if I may! Everyone reading this will be fine.   Simply because you as Mustachians all know how to take good care of yourselves and your families. The knock-on effects we may experience are likely to be social and economic, but it has to be possible they may be something many haven't seen in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 09, 2020, 04:00:29 PM
Yes, people are stupid, but we also have parents not vaccinating their children and potentially putting infants and people who can't get vaccinated at risk also.  You can't fix stupid and as far as I know, it is not a crime.  Life is a gamble anyway. 

If you are elderly or immunocompromised, you probably want to try to self quarantine as much as possible.  If you are younger and in good health, you will probably be fine.

                                                   Miss Prim

I think when there is a Corona vax, people who weren't fully vaxxed prior to Jan 2020, without medical conditions preventing it, should be absolute fucking last in line for the Corona vaccine.  Let them live (and die) their asinine beliefs. 

I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards.

So I should be able to shoot them on sight, and if they live 10 years in prison?

That seems very expensive for society, keeping in mind that DUII is not a felony in most circumstances.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: laserlady on March 09, 2020, 04:13:32 PM
Quote
ll say this once, if I may! Everyone reading this will be fine.   Simply because you as Mustachians all know how to take good care of yourselves and your families. The knock-on effects we may experience are likely to be social and economic, but it has to be possible they may be something many haven't seen in our lifetime.

I assume you mean to say that we'll all be fine economically.  Even that seems a little dubious to me, but, in absolute terms, I really don't think you can say that everyone reading this will be fine.  I have asthma and always get lung problems with any kind of respiratory illness, so I'm at high risk in this epidemic.  I have an employer and parents who are at even higher risk.  The odds are good that, as this epidemic continues to spread, people now reading this forum will lose family members or other loved ones, if not their own lives.  Selfish decisions made by people like the quarantine-breakers discussed above put all of us at risk, even if we take whatever steps we can to try to mitigate those risks.

I totally agree with several of the other points made in your post, especially about the bewilderingly poor containment efforts being made by countries outside of China.  People will cite to the fact that numbers are going down in China as if this proves that COVID-19 is no longer a threat, without recognizing that those numbers have only gone down due to the stringent measures China put into place more than a month ago.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 09, 2020, 05:09:27 PM

I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards.

So I should be able to shoot them on sight, and if they live 10 years in prison?

That seems very expensive for society, keeping in mind that DUII is not a felony in most circumstances.
[/quote]

??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

And yes, I think the penalties should be severe.   One of the prime compenents of our judicial and penal system is deterring bad behavior.  If people realize it is a serious thing, they are more likely to take it seriously.  And absent that, they are still more likely to obey the order, even if they think it's stupid, if they know they face serious consequences. 

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.  (The problem with only making quarantine violation a felony if somsone gets seriously ill or dies is that tying an illness to a specific person is difficult at best, or potentially impossible if this gets a foothold.  Did you catch this from the guy who broke quarantine and stood in line in front of you in the coffee shop?  Maybe.  But maybe you got it from someone else, not yet diagnosed, who shopped at your grocery store or used that door know just before you.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 09, 2020, 05:17:32 PM
Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 05:21:59 PM
??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

You said treat it like a violent felony. In every state that I have lived in I've had the legal right to shoot people who were committing violent felonies.

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.

It is, but only if you are a repeat offender or someone gets seriously hurt and you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt it in a court of law.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on March 09, 2020, 05:22:05 PM
Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: afox on March 09, 2020, 05:24:16 PM
Try to put yourself in someone's shoes that has a job with no sick or little sick leave and is un-insured or under-insured  and gets flu-like symptoms, not extreme enough for them to feel like they cant work, travel, etc.

Option A: get expensive medical treatment that you cant afford and stay home from work and use up all of your sick leave and/or dont get paid which you cant afford.

Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 05:29:22 PM
Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

Not to mention that there are even odds that your boss is screaming at you to come to work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dummy on March 09, 2020, 05:37:16 PM
Lol.

The sky is falling.

You’ll be fine. Relax and calm down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 09, 2020, 07:27:44 PM
Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.
I refuse to get the flu shot because I d not trust the government, and have had the flu a few times.  It is unpleasant but I always recover.

Found one!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 09, 2020, 07:48:23 PM
??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

You said treat it like a violent felony. In every state that I have lived in I've had the legal right to shoot people who were committing violent felonies.

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.

It is, but only if you are a repeat offender or someone gets seriously hurt and you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt it in a court of law.

You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?  Huh.  To my knowledge, that hasn't been legal in any states where I've lived, but maybe I'm just not familiar with those laws.  For that matter, I thought that typically you are only allowed to shoot someone if they are on your property and an immediate threat to your life.  I don't think this arises to "immediate threat to life".  Then of course there is the fact that you would have to know they were told to quarantine and have ignored that. 

So maybe not the same. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 08:04:38 PM
You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?

I never said that. You said that breaking quarantine should be equivalent to felony assault:

Make it akin to felony assault.

I think the idea is preposterous. I'm just trying to demonstrate just how preposterous. For reference, here is the Oregon use of deadly force law:

ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1)Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2)Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3)Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person
- source (https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/161.219)

You said that they should be equivalent, not me.

EDITed to add - BTW, felony assaults would include things like knifes and bats. You think that breaking quarantine is equivalent to me hitting you in the head with a bat or stabbing you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 09, 2020, 08:12:03 PM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.

You are simplifying things somewhat.  Europe actually has no meaningful borders, which is why it now has a true epidemic, and is why it has spread so fast.

Many who've not lived or travelled in Europe may not understand that borders can NOT be closed. It's just impossible. You can cross freely from any country into another in hundreds of ways, without ever stopping, just like US state borders.  Quarantining a small town or city is probably much easier. But restricting travel between countries, no chance.
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 09, 2020, 08:26:34 PM
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 09, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?

I never said that. You said that breaking quarantine should be equivalent to felony assault:

Make it akin to felony assault.
 
I think the idea is preposterous. I'm just trying to demonstrate just how preposterous. For reference, here is the Oregon use of deadly force law:

ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1)Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2)Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3)Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person
- source (https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/161.219)

You said that they should be equivalent, not me.

EDITed to add - BTW, felony assaults would include things like knifes and bats. You think that breaking quarantine is equivalent to me hitting you in the head with a bat or stabbing you.

Akin=similar, not exactly the same.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 09, 2020, 10:13:58 PM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Monerexia on March 09, 2020, 10:42:10 PM
Try to put yourself in someone's shoes that has a job with no sick or little sick leave and is un-insured or under-insured  and gets flu-like symptoms, not extreme enough for them to feel like they cant work, travel, etc.

Option A: get expensive medical treatment that you cant afford and stay home from work and use up all of your sick leave and/or dont get paid which you cant afford.

Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: afox on March 09, 2020, 11:05:41 PM
Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.

not just restaurants, many professional employees get 3 days of sick leave per year that they could otherwise use on vacations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 09, 2020, 11:25:13 PM
Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.

Because of game theory.  Individuals' choices with regard to this disease are interconnected with other people.  A drunk driver is a single event with a single risk associated with it.  Obviously a chronic drunk driver is a serious issue but it's still a linear event.

Britannica, on game theory:

Game theory, branch of applied mathematics that provides tools for analyzing situations in which parties, called players, make decisions that are interdependent. This interdependence causes each player to consider the other player’s possible decisions, or strategies, in formulating his own strategy.  A solution to a game describes the optimal decisions of the players, who may have similar, opposed, or mixed interests, and the outcomes that may result from these decisions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Monerexia on March 09, 2020, 11:29:34 PM
Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.

not just restaurants, many professional employees get 3 days of sick leave per year that they could otherwise use on vacations.

Yes but restaurant employees differ in two important ways from professional environments: 1. The pay is lower so it is more difficult in the aggregate for them to miss work. 2. They have their faces directly over and their hands directly on something I am going to ingest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 09, 2020, 11:39:31 PM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.

I'm the person who earlier said that people who are violating a home quarantine for a deadly disease for no good reason should be summarily executed, on video, with their execution published for all to see.

One drunk driver might kill a few people, but they can't cause an entire country to lose 20% of its population.   A quarantine violator with the wrong disease might just end up being responsible for setting the chain of events in motion that causes exactly that result.

Think what would happen if people got a disease as deadly as ebola with the transmission ease and asymptomatic infections time period of corvid-19?   And with a new disease we don't really know the variables involved.   So violating a home quarantine can be deadly serious.   Someone violating a quarantine because they are bored or don't want to cook is so damn selfish compared to the potential consequences they just need to be done away with as an example to others.

But that's just me.   I'm all with helping people overcome their mistakes and giving them another chance -- until they willfully endanger millions of people.   

Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 09, 2020, 11:41:50 PM
Ah yes, summary executions, the legal framework definitely supports that.

Pipe down Mao.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 10, 2020, 12:48:55 AM
Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.

Because of game theory.  Individuals' choices with regard to this disease are interconnected with other people.  A drunk driver is a single event with a single risk associated with it.  Obviously a chronic drunk driver is a serious issue but it's still a linear event.

Britannica, on game theory:

Game theory, branch of applied mathematics that provides tools for analyzing situations in which parties, called players, make decisions that are interdependent. This interdependence causes each player to consider the other player’s possible decisions, or strategies, in formulating his own strategy.  A solution to a game describes the optimal decisions of the players, who may have similar, opposed, or mixed interests, and the outcomes that may result from these decisions.

Our legal framework doesn't operate on game theory. Otherwise we'd be paying poor people to abort their kids and incentivising rich/smart parents to have more children. Our criminal punishment system is based on culpability, not on coercing people (through fear and terror) into certain decisions that might be better for society but which cast a disproportionate toll on the "offender".

As I said, humans are fallible. We can't even get people to stop having unsafe sex, a practice that both pragmatically and conceptually is much easier than staying home at 2 weeks not getting paid. We can't even get people to get themselves vaccinated. 15% of the population continues to smoke. You're not going to stop that from happening so just accept it and move on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 10, 2020, 01:35:32 AM
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.

Exactly. You've mentioned the tip of what is an extremely huge iceberg.  There are literally thousands of examples like this where walking just a few feet puts you in another country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html)

 And what about travelling on trains?  They may check your passport, but to all intents and purposes the closing of borders in Europe is virtually unenforceable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 10, 2020, 03:16:06 AM
People won't act to protect others on a daily basis if that impacts them even slightly. I mean seriously?? I read that the reason asian people routinely wear masks is to protect others, not themselves. Like f&^%! I think most people are good people, and most people would go out of their way to help if the opportunity arose, for example running to help in a car accident. That does not include going hungry themselves, or cold themselves, or self isolating or any other even minor impact to themselves! It's just not human nature.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 10, 2020, 03:29:04 AM
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.

Exactly. You've mentioned the tip of what is an extremely huge iceberg.  There are literally thousands of examples like this where walking just a few feet puts you in another country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html)

 And what about travelling on trains?  They may check your passport, but to all intents and purposes the closing of borders in Europe is virtually unenforceable.
Nobody is talking about stopping all border crossings ever. You just need to stop /most/ people. And that is very enforceable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 10, 2020, 07:52:06 AM
People won't act to protect others on a daily basis if that impacts them even slightly. I mean seriously?? I read that the reason asian people routinely wear masks is to protect others, not themselves. Like f&^%! I think most people are good people, and most people would go out of their way to help if the opportunity arose, for example running to help in a car accident. That does not include going hungry themselves, or cold themselves, or self isolating or any other even minor impact to themselves! It's just not human nature.

There are cultural differences involved too. Asian cultures generally have more regard for their role within groups.  But I suspect if enough people started wearing masks on north American public transit, we would see more group enforcement of wearing masks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 10, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Who leaked all this information to the press. Isn't it a big HIPAA violation? I could lose my job and possibly my license if I told anyone that a patient had Corona virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Adam Zapple on March 10, 2020, 08:39:42 AM
I think what makes this so difficult is that people are sick with all kinds of stuff right now.  In all likelihood, someone who is sick has something other than coronavirus (without doing actual math, maybe 99.99% chance if not in a known hot spot?) They know this and their doctors know this and the doctors likely tell them so.  Perhaps they half-heartedly suggest self-quarantine.  Media reports are not reliable and you have no idea what some of these patients knew or did not. 

One group of people, on the other hand, who I absolutely think deserve to die from coronavirus are those who would GET ON A CRUISE SHIP RIGHT NOW!!!???  Seriously, when there's an outbreak on one of these things they should find a deep spot and drill some large holes in the bottom of the ship.  They'd be doing society a favor. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MyAlterEgoIsTaller on March 10, 2020, 08:40:15 AM
Who leaked all this information to the press. Isn't it a big HIPAA violation? I could lose my job and possibly my license if I told anyone that a patient had Corona virus.
Most of it has originally come from states' health departments.  They don't have the same reporting restrictions as health care professionals - they have authority to inform others when they determine it's in the collective best interest.  The health departments have held press conferences, and provided additional information to other parties, such as the schools that these people attend, their employers, other train passengers in the case of the Missouri woman, other party-goers in the NH/VT incident, and so on, and not all of those individuals are bound by any confidentiality requirements.
From there, even if a name isn't provided, it can be pretty easy for others in those peoples' communities to put the pieces together to identify them.

In the NH incident, the NH health department was pretty tight-lipped, and because the patient worked for a hospital of course the employer was too, but the VT health department released a little more info, and then from that people in that person's university community were able to identify him, and then a student's blog post about the incident gave the press a little more info from which to figure it out.  Information spreads even better than viruses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Arrian on March 10, 2020, 09:15:01 AM
Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?

I agree with this. Haven't traveled internationally, come into known contact with anyone, and didn't have a fever over 100.4

... but I did use public transit in NYC last week
... and had a fever of 100.3 Mon morning
... went to bed Sunday night with a very sore throat, have had night sweats two nights in a row - and now my SO is experiencing a dry cough, chest tightness.

Not having cheap/ readily available testing is really killer. We probably just have a regular flu/ cold schmutz going around, but I'd sure like to rule out or be treated for COVID-19 before bronchitis sets in for my SO.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dogboyslim on March 10, 2020, 09:16:26 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but
Quote from: wikipedia
Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MaaS on March 10, 2020, 11:24:15 AM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 10, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

I tried to count the roads that cross the Texas/New Mexico border. I made it to 45, zoomed out, and saw that I hadn't even made it a third of the way down the border. I only covered county roads and one small town. It would take a heck of a lot of government workers to cover every road.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: afox on March 10, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but
Quote from: wikipedia
Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Coronavirus mortality rates vary by age and are as high as 18% or more for older individuals. The best data so far is in the WHO report:

summarized here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/fbt49e/the_who_sent_25_international_experts_to_china/

This is the full report:
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 10, 2020, 12:05:34 PM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

I think in my (and @UncleX 's) part of Europe closing off train/air/main roads would be fairly easy. That would be maybe 50% of cross border traffic, the international travellers. The other half would be semi-local traffic and many of those people who live in cross border communities aren't going to let the government stop them from living their lives. If you'd have to physically close off the local roads too you'd have to literally call in the army. We've had open borders for so long that our border patrol just doesn't have the capacity.

It would also cause problems immediately because many of people work on one side and live on the other side. My GP and at least half of their staff live on the other side.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: honeybbq on March 10, 2020, 12:07:27 PM
Wow.

OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.

I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

As a fellow allergy sufferer- yes people will look at you but runny nose and sneezing are NOT indications for this virus. I'd just say "seasonal allergies" after I sneeze into my tissue.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on March 10, 2020, 12:19:59 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but
Quote from: wikipedia
Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:
Quote
In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: UncleX on March 10, 2020, 12:35:17 PM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.
I get the feeling you have never been to my part of Europe. You certainly have no idea about our infrastructrure and about how we live our lives here, even if you may think you do.

This thread is amazing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 10, 2020, 12:39:18 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but
Quote from: wikipedia
Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:
Quote
In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever.

You're missing the point.

Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

Polio is not a good comparison to this virus, or the flu. There simply isn't the same emotional landmine that polio had. As sad is may be if your elderly relatives pass away, the fact remains that they are not children. The death of a child is always regretted more, seen as more of a loss, more of a tragedy. BECAUSE children still have their whole lives ahead of them, society places more weight on their deaths. For the elderly, society has collectively looked at them and said "you've lived your life, and it's sad, but everyone dies sometime". The younger someone is who dies, the more of a loss their death is counted as by society.

That doesn't mean that an individual's death isn't a devastating loss to you personally. I'm talking about society as a whole. And society as a whole is far more panic stricken when it's children at primary risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 10, 2020, 12:45:58 PM
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.

I wanted to revisit this. A bunch of people work in one country and live in another, I believe that the colloquial term for them is "frontier workers." What you are proposing would be equivalent to closing the state borders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it politically or even economically practical? I'm not sure, what happens when power station workers can't get to work? Hospital workers? Checkpoints maybe, but closed?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on March 10, 2020, 01:02:15 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but
Quote from: wikipedia
Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:
Quote
In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever.

You're missing the point.

Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

Polio is not a good comparison to this virus, or the flu. There simply isn't the same emotional landmine that polio had. As sad is may be if your elderly relatives pass away, the fact remains that they are not children. The death of a child is always regretted more, seen as more of a loss, more of a tragedy. BECAUSE children still have their whole lives ahead of them, society places more weight on their deaths. For the elderly, society has collectively looked at them and said "you've lived your life, and it's sad, but everyone dies sometime". The younger someone is who dies, the more of a loss their death is counted as by society.

That doesn't mean that an individual's death isn't a devastating loss to you personally. I'm talking about society as a whole. And society as a whole is far more panic stricken when it's children at primary risk.

I'm just putting the "oh the death rate is only 2%" into context.  Most people don't understand statistics and are trying to argue that a 2% (or whatever number they're picking) isn't anything to be concerned about, but those same people would shit bricks if you said you weren't vaccinated against polio, or pertussis (0.5% or less), or chicken pox or didn't get your flu shot.  On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BECABECA on March 10, 2020, 01:06:15 PM
Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?

I agree with this. Haven't traveled internationally, come into known contact with anyone, and didn't have a fever over 100.4

... but I did use public transit in NYC last week
... and had a fever of 100.3 Mon morning
... went to bed Sunday night with a very sore throat, have had night sweats two nights in a row - and now my SO is experiencing a dry cough, chest tightness.

Not having cheap/ readily available testing is really killer. We probably just have a regular flu/ cold schmutz going around, but I'd sure like to rule out or be treated for COVID-19 before bronchitis sets in for my SO.

You could at least call your doctor and have them get you tested for the flu. Then if you don’t have the flu, you’d be more likely to be authorized to get tested for COVID-19 in the coming days when CDC inevitably will widen the list of who they consider for testing.

What is the significance of 100.4 fever vs. lower fever? From what I’ve read, even low grade fevers can be an indicator of COVID-19. I hope you both are at least staying home until you don’t have fevers anymore.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 10, 2020, 01:17:16 PM
Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

As an aside, there are still at three people in the US who rely on Iron Lungs, all elderly at this point.  Iron Lungs are no longer manufactured, but other types of ventilators are not as effective for this condition. 

https://gizmodo.com/the-last-of-the-iron-lungs-1819079169
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 10, 2020, 01:32:04 PM
Here's a 27 minute investigative report from Simone Gao that questions whether the Chinese statistics and spin can be trusted. It was published 16 hours ago.

For anyone reading this, who like myself is 100% certain the Chinese figures are grossly falsified (and always have been), then the video — though very measured and professionally done — may raise your blood pressure just a little.

I can present strong logical reasons why the current figures, proudly claiming almost zero new cases in the whole of their vastly populated country, have to be nothing other than meaningless. It's very easy to do.  The video shows a lot of them. My frustrations really centre around the obedient, complicit reporting in the western media (combined with their lack of criticism of the WHO, which is criminally negligent at best). It's sometimes hard to watch all this play out.

Of course, we'll get the real picture from places like South Korea and Italy (with accurate testing and reporting), and other countries will follow suit soon, maybe France, Germany and Spain.  Not the US.

In the meantime, the non-Chinese world is being presented as somehow a bunch of bumbling Keystone Kops (which is partly true), while China is portrayed as a model of efficiency and organisation.  This is only true inasmuch as their uber-controlling police state has claws, teeth and a great deal of ruthlessness, with zero commitment to truth and individual respect of any kind.

https://youtu.be/_a7HaWqFh24 (https://youtu.be/_a7HaWqFh24)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wrenchturner on March 10, 2020, 01:46:24 PM
There are some good graphs on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ to help get a sense of things.  I like to look at the logarithmic number of cases.  Italy's growth has started to reduce since Feb 23.  The US still has their growth growing at an increasing rate.  Talking about acceleration/first derivative here.  It's good to know if steps are being taken to slow acceleration.  The number of cases alone is a difficult metric to make use of.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 10, 2020, 01:57:30 PM
Here (https://www.thelocal.it/20200310/are-there-taxis-your-questions-about-the-coronavirus-quarantine-rules-in-italy) is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: skp on March 10, 2020, 02:05:56 PM
I don't feel I have enough data.  As an ICU nurse  I wonder about factors that have nothing to do with virulence that could potentially effect the mortality rates of the virus.  It looks like elderly nursing home residents who already have preexisting conditions have the highest death rates.  But this same population could possibly already have DNAR orders. What I wonder is how many of their families simply limit how aggressive they want to treat?  We recently put my 93 year old mother in a nursing home.  I don't think I would aggressively treat her if she got coronavirus.  That being said, I agree that it is incredibly selfish to expose other people to a bacteria for anything other than emergency reasons.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 10, 2020, 02:09:40 PM
Here (https://www.thelocal.it/20200310/are-there-taxis-your-questions-about-the-coronavirus-quarantine-rules-in-italy) is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus. Although I suppose reducing interactions, even if in a very limited way, will help some.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 10, 2020, 02:11:51 PM
Here (https://www.thelocal.it/20200310/are-there-taxis-your-questions-about-the-coronavirus-quarantine-rules-in-italy) is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus.

I'm not an epidemiologist, but it seems designed to limit movement around the country. So even if you have a flare up in one town it doesn't make it to the neighboring town. Or if it does they aren't both overloading the local hospitals at the same time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 10, 2020, 02:14:29 PM
Good point - so long as things aren't crazy everywhere at the same time, resources can be more easily redirected as needed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 10, 2020, 02:21:04 PM
Here (https://www.thelocal.it/20200310/are-there-taxis-your-questions-about-the-coronavirus-quarantine-rules-in-italy) is some fascinating information about the Italy quarantine. You can still go to work and to the store, and the maximum penalty for breaking quarantine is three months in jail.
So more symbolic than designed to really stop the virus. Although I suppose reducing interactions, even if in a very limited way, will help some.

I read that on average each patient infects 3 others. If we could even reduce that to 2, wouldn't that significantly reduce the speed of the spreading of the infection? That doesn't sound symbolical. I think there's also some thought behind not basically imprisoning people at home - that would probably lead to panic and is difficult to enforce in a democratic country. You'd need the military on the streets and special permits for those who need to go out and that's starting to sound like an disaster movie, not a sensible policy irl.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Adam Zapple on March 10, 2020, 02:54:46 PM
Using this winter as an example, if my family of 5 self quarantined every time one of us was sick we wouldn't have left the house since November.  If we needed to be tested for coronavirus each time one of us was sick that would have meant about 15 doctors visits. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on March 10, 2020, 03:42:56 PM
I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

This is my problem.  I have terrible seasonal allergies right now and those are only going to get worse as spring comes.  I actually just hired a lawn service for first time in 5 years as I don't want doing my own lawn to make my allergies worse, etc. and cause sneezing/coughing that makes people around me panic.  Hopefully an expense I can get rid of after the summer months assuming this whole virus calms down in the fall.
Ditto... itchy face. Great time to have itchy nose and sneezing. Yes, some people will hate on you. Unfortunately, there hasn't been a mask for sale in MissyB town for weeks... or I'd wear one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 10, 2020, 05:52:13 PM
That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.

I wanted to revisit this. A bunch of people work in one country and live in another, I believe that the colloquial term for them is "frontier workers." What you are proposing would be equivalent to closing the state borders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it politically or even economically practical? I'm not sure, what happens when power station workers can't get to work? Hospital workers? Checkpoints maybe, but closed?
Yes, this is common in a couple regions. Luxembourg and the surrounding area is a big one. Switzerland too. On any given day there are also thousands of business travelers between London and Paris. But in general, thankfully, Europeans in general tend to live closer to where they work than Americans.

As I've said before, you don't need to block everybody. You just need to block the people who don't have a "good reason", and what constitutes a "good reason" can be adjusted as needed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MaaS on March 10, 2020, 06:05:41 PM
Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.
What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.
I get the feeling you have never been to my part of Europe. You certainly have no idea about our infrastructrure and about how we live our lives here, even if you may think you do.

This thread is amazing.

Let me clarify this:

I'm not saying shut down every border in Europe. Or that every person can, or should be stopped from crossing.

But, should France, Switzerland, and Austria have done more to limit travel from Italy? Absolutely. Now, it's too late. The rate of growth in Europe is insane and unfortunately, the U.S. isn't far behind now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on March 10, 2020, 10:49:07 PM
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.
Singapore does not f*** around.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on March 10, 2020, 11:11:43 PM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 11, 2020, 12:14:25 AM
Singapore has 6 months jail time for people who get infected and don't self report.
In addition, residents who break their quarantine get their residency (green card equivalent)/employment pass/visa revoked and are banned from ever entering singapore again. companies who disregard the quarantine for their employee and ask them to come back to work are banned from all employment pass/visa applications.
Singapore does not f*** around.

I don't blame them for being harsh with people who break quarantine.    Exile to some country stupid enough to accept them, plus confiscation of their wealth for being a pain in the ass and contributing to other people's medical bills, in lieu of summary execution is a viable option.


Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 11, 2020, 12:33:40 AM
Yeah. Nah.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 11, 2020, 12:40:54 AM
Honestly, if someone is directed to self-quarantine at home and they violate that quarantine for anything less than a true emergency or at the direction of the authorities, we should just summarily execute them.   With video.   And post it on social media and make it part of official government announcements that the media would be expected to cover in full.

Think of the photo of the Viet Cong spy that was summarily executed by an ARVN officer, only in color and on video.

Enough of those and the number people willing to violate home quarantine will drop significantly.

Think of it as preparation for when something as deadly as Ebola gets out.   It's only a matter of time before that happens, so the more we change the lackadaisical attitude people have about quarantine the better.

Jeeezus.  And you clearly consider yourself one of the good guys.  Have you considered relocating to China?  Or even better North Korea.  Peasants like you don't realise it's you that create the problems nobody else.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Spud on March 11, 2020, 12:58:28 AM
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: FIRE Artist on March 11, 2020, 03:18:51 AM
On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.


OT but I believe the deal with chicken pox is that it stays dormant in your body and can come back as shingles. if you avoid cp then you won’t get shingles later on in life, which really, really sucks, and can leave people with permanent nerve pain.  I have has cp, and believe me, will be going for my shingles vaccine as soon as I turn 50 (eligibility age here). I am not messing with that shit. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 11, 2020, 05:27:51 AM
On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.


OT but I believe the deal with chicken pox is that it stays dormant in your body and can come back as shingles. if you avoid cp then you won’t get shingles later on in life, which really, really sucks, and can leave people with permanent nerve pain.  I have has cp, and believe me, will be going for my shingles vaccine as soon as I turn 50 (eligibility age here). I am not messing with that shit.

Chicken pox is usually mild in kids. Not always. The complications can be nasty.

Chicken pox is adults is a totally different story. It's serious, hospitalisation serious. I've had it and I've never been so sick. I lost whole days. The pox bit is just the annoying and itchy end to a 4 week can't-get-out-of-bed-or-move fever. That's why children are vaccinated. You absolutely do not want adult chicken pox. And fyi, you can get it more than once. Most people don't, but quite a lot do. Not shingles, actual chicken pox. Then of course, later you can get shingles. Shingles is incredibly painful and debilitating, and can easily cause hospitalisation also. Fun times. Get your kids the pox vaccine!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 11, 2020, 05:31:58 AM
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.

Last huge and really damaging pandemic was only 102 years ago. We definitely don't learn. Lucky for us that our immune systems do whether we like it or not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 11, 2020, 06:26:08 AM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 11, 2020, 06:59:14 AM
I wrote recently about not even trying to list the many reasons why the Chinese statistics are still manifestly false. But here's one of many clear indicators. It comes from this page:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-update-live-news-uk-health-minister-italy-lockdown-australia-us-china-stock-markets-outbreak-latest-updates (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/11/coronavirus-update-live-news-uk-health-minister-italy-lockdown-australia-us-china-stock-markets-outbreak-latest-updates)

It only takes a moment's thought to see self-evidently that if China really had solved its Covid-19 problems, they'd be wanting every citizen to be shouting exactly that to the world on the net, and no censorship would be needed any more. They'd be encouraging private reports of their crisis being over now.

(I hope all the strange characters in this message become visible to readers out there! )

Quote
Chinese webizens are turning to ever more inventive methods to evade online censorship and spread the first-hand account of a Wuhan physician on the frontline of tackling Covid-19, writing it backwards, translating it into English, and even producing a Braille version.

The article, which was published on WeChat by People Magazine on 10 March, was “immediately deleted across the entire network”, according to a report from Radio Free Asia.

But the deletions only began a game of cat and mouse with the censors, as users firstly began using classic methods, like sharing screenshots of the contents, and then moved on to more inventive ways of obfuscating the text, including translations into Braille, Morse Code, English and Emoji.

Here’s a sample sentence: ❤芬曾🌶🗾‍🥘1⃣份🧣💗肺👁病👤‍💦病☠检测‍🐆🗻,她用红色👊出“SARS冠☄病☠”字🐑 ,当‍).

Other approaches included rewriting the entire text backwards, or writing it in “Martian”, by replacing every character with visually similar alternatives – so that the passage “艾芬曾拿到过一份不明肺炎病人的病毒检测报告” becomes the nonsense text “哎棼缯拿箌过┅份钚明肺燚病亡啲病蝳检测报告”.

Eventually, RFA reports, even those articles were deleted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 11, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.
I'm part of a small group that's just been set up on WhatsApp of single people in my village, with the aim of checking in on each other and providing support/shopping/dog walking as needed if (when?) the virus gets to us.  I'm normally on the solitary side of independent but having this backstop feels good.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 11, 2020, 07:21:37 AM
Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.


Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.
Here's the thing that's wierd to me: it's like everyone is assuming, with their whack panic buying and what-not, that they have no-one who will go out and bring them food and supplies and leave them at their door. The idiot health minister from my idiot government actually started a wave of panic-buying by telling people they should go buy two weeks supplies of stuff instead of telling people they should check in with their friends and neighbors, so that they had agreed in advance to help each other, should the need arise.

That would have laid the ground-work for an 'all for one and one for all' kind of thing, instead of 'me first to the face masks and toilet paper, I better get a 6 month supply and anyone behind me can go hang'.
And yeah, if you don't have people there should be a mechanism in place to help.

I know someone who had SARS. She was in quarantine at home through her illness. People brought her food and things she needed, and left at her front door so they would be safe.

Here’s the thing: I know that we have people. But I would hate to ask them or assume that they would be an option. It would feel like I failed to plan and prepare adequately and had to burden others. It would feel like asking family or friends for a loan because we had a financial emergency and hadn’t saved adequately. I’d much rather take out a bank loan and deal with that.

I’m ok to ask for help and see it as less of a failure to plan than an acknowledgement that we’re human and sometimes can’t do it all ourselves (as hard as that is to admit) We are starting week two of quarantine and I am thrilled to have bananas and other fresh fruit left at our front door with nice and funny notes from friends.  Granted, we wouldn’t go hungry without the help-pantry and fridge are packed tight.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tygertygertyger on March 11, 2020, 09:03:04 AM
My friends and I are talking about remotely playing board games. :-)

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 11, 2020, 11:49:04 AM
Honestly, if someone is directed to self-quarantine at home and they violate that quarantine for anything less than a true emergency or at the direction of the authorities, we should just summarily execute them.   With video.   And post it on social media and make it part of official government announcements that the media would be expected to cover in full.

Think of the photo of the Viet Cong spy that was summarily executed by an ARVN officer, only in color and on video.

Enough of those and the number people willing to violate home quarantine will drop significantly.

Think of it as preparation for when something as deadly as Ebola gets out.   It's only a matter of time before that happens, so the more we change the lackadaisical attitude people have about quarantine the better.

Jeeezus.  And you clearly consider yourself one of the good guys.  Have you considered relocating to China?  Or even better North Korea.  Peasants like you don't realise it's you that create the problems nobody else.

Ok,@happyuk, I'll admit to a bit of hyperbole to make my point about how serious quarantine is.

Right now there are 3 main approaches to quarantine.

There's the historical one.   Think plague ship.    Historically we would make everyone stay on board the ship until they all died or people stopped getting sick.      Safe for everyone off the ship, pretty hellish for everyone on the ship.  Typically only a few people on the ship are sick at first, but if they have to stay packed together in close quarters a whole lot of them will end up dying.  And if we have to create an ad-hoc quarantine facility on land, we keep putting people in it until no more of them have the disease.   Let's say there's a 2 week danger zone, so we have to keep them for 2 weeks.  One day 12 we need to put new people into the quarantine facility.  If this is an ad hoc facility, we may not be able to keep the new folks and the almost ready-to-leave folks separated.  So, on day 12 of 14, our original folks have to say another 14 days, for a total of 26.   Of course, if new people get added on day 25, now the original folks are stuck there until day 39!  With every new person added to the ad-hoc facility who mixes with the folks already there, we up the odds that the people in quarantine die.

So, we evolved to our current method.    Recognizing that most people on the ship or who came into contact with the sick person probably aren't sick, we let people self-quarantine in their own homes.   That way, society gets the benefit of quarantine and far fewer people on the plague ship end up dying.    Sounds like a win-win.

Except.

Except when people on home quarantine break quarantine because they are selfish pricks who endanger everyone else.   Except when the wrong person doing the wrong thing with the wrong disease causes a massive outbreak and thousands or up to 20 million people die.  (Yes, epidemics killing 20 million people world wide have happened in the last hundred and two years.)

And what's the legal penalty for breaking home quarantine?   I'm no lawyer, but a quick google search brought up 42 US Code 271, which provides for a fine of up to $1000 and/or 1 year in jail.

Ok, that's a bit stiffer than the "Boys will be boys, what can you do?" rape-culture defense thinks is appropriate for boys from well-to-do families or who are good at sports should get when they rape a girl, but not by much.

Surely "Attempted mass murder thru intentional and willful negligence" should be a crime that carries a higher fine than the cost of a $30 speeding ticket and the resultant increase in auto insurance rates. 

I think the 3rd way, "Boys will be boys", needs to be scrapped.  Breaking quarantine is deadly serious.   The crime should be breaking quarantine, NOT whether someone died because of it.  That way, the charges are simple, easily proven if guilty and no reasonable mitigating circumstances apply, and justice can be swift -- which is EXACTLY what is needed when needing to get people's attention about not breaking quarantine.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 11, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
Except when people on home quarantine break quarantine because they are selfish pricks who endanger everyone else.   Except when the wrong person doing the wrong thing with the wrong disease causes a massive outbreak and thousands or up to 20 million people die.  (Yes, epidemics killing 20 million people world wide have happened in the last hundred and two years.)

Indeed, my family lost our patriarch and then our farm in the flu pandemic.

And what's the legal penalty for breaking home quarantine?   I'm no lawyer, but a quick google search brought up 42 US Code 271, which provides for a fine of up to $1000 and/or 1 year in jail.

Well there you go, an established penalty strong enough to discourage bad behavior without the need for summary execution or felony assault charges. It is more or less inline with the three month jail term on offer by Italy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 11, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
Also pertinent: Break a coronavirus quarantine in the US? Yes, you could face jail time (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/03/10/coronavirus-quarantine-breaking-public-health-order-jail-fine/5008588002/)

"These laws can vary from state to state and can be specific or broad. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor," the CDC wrote.
...
Violating Michigan's Public Health Code means a person could face fines up to $200 and up to six months in jail or both, said Lynn Sutfin, a spokeswoman for the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 11, 2020, 01:16:03 PM
For the US to avoid the situation that mainland Europe is currently in, they simply have to ground all internal flights, shut down all travel by bus, train, subway, taxi and car, and close all shops, restaurants, bars, day care, schools, colleges, shopping malls, supermarkets, workplaces, cinemas, theatres, concert halls, sporting events (NBA/NFL/MLB/MLS) and..............................yeah it's too late.

The numbers on this site https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ might not be total accurate, but it's the best I've found and it's interesting to watch the number of new infections per day rising for each country. Sure, South Korea, Iran and Italy are ahead of the US, France and Germany, but you can see that the same thing is happening everywhere, it's just that different countries are at different stages of the outbreak. Within a couple of weeks it won't matter. Everybody's numbers will have increased dramatically compared with where they are today.

This page is quite interesting: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Basically unless you're over 60 with obviously poor health (particular in the lung and heart department) you're probably going to be absolutely fine.

My mother is 70, has cancer, is no longer undergoing chemotherapy (her choice) and has recently just about just about got over a lung infection. Trying to convince her to stay in her home for the net 12 months is proving tough. She is the very definition of the demographic that is being wiped out. Me, my wife, our friends etc? Probably won't be able to tell the Coronavirus from a common cold.

Part of me thinks we should try and isolate the people who are going to die more easily (my mother) and not worry about those who are robust enough to shrug this off, but I'm painfully aware I don't really understand this situation and the geopolitical/economic impact. I'm just spectating and trying to survive.

If this thing mutates, we're all done.

Equally, if in 25 years time something that kills indiscriminately but spreads as easily as COVID-19, gets out, we're all done. This is just a warning to humanity and one that we won't heed.

Last huge and really damaging pandemic was only 102 years ago. We definitely don't learn. Lucky for us that our immune systems do whether we like it or not.

Most big works regarding climate change indicate a likely significant increase in pandemics and new diseases, so as long as we solve that problem in the next few years there should be no reason to worry.  :P
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 11, 2020, 03:31:30 PM
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 11, 2020, 03:34:38 PM
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.
...
Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

Wow, the WHO looks competent next to the CDC. I guess that everything is relative.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 11, 2020, 05:47:01 PM
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.

Have to say that I've been surprised that both WHO and CDC are updating their websites only once per day and only Monday through Friday in a rapidly changing pandemic situation. It seems frickin irresponsible. The major universities are doing a far better job keeping basic information up to date.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 11, 2020, 06:06:26 PM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 11, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
The WHO have just formally announced that this is a pandemic. Tedros has been giving a press briefing.

They really had to. They were in a public corner, with no public way out.

Whatever one calls it, all their advice has been woeful, lacking, and incompetent, from the very start.

There's something deeply wrong with this organisation, and something deeply wrong with Tedros.

Every indication (and all evidence) points to his being a true communist, deeply in league with China.

Have to say that I've been surprised that both WHO and CDC are updating their websites only once per day and only Monday through Friday in a rapidly changing pandemic situation. It seems frickin irresponsible. The major universities are doing a far better job keeping basic information up to date.




You can blame Trump for how the CDC is currently performing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SEdude on March 11, 2020, 07:00:36 PM
Lots of good data and visualizations in this post: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 11, 2020, 09:12:41 PM
Lots of good data and visualizations in this post: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)


Thanks for posting that link.  Everyone should take a look at it, so you'll have the big picture about how to prepare & how to help prevent the worst case scenario.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on March 11, 2020, 09:49:16 PM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 11, 2020, 10:15:15 PM
Lots of good data and visualizations in this post: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)


Thanks for posting that link.  Everyone should take a look at it, so you'll have the big picture about how to prepare & how to help prevent the worst case scenario.

+1
Excellent article
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 11, 2020, 10:34:35 PM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 11, 2020, 10:50:43 PM
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ is good if you want to drill down on one country.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mwulff on March 12, 2020, 01:01:13 AM
Here is a sit-rep from Denmark. We have been hit somewhat hard by the Corona virus since our entire country tends to go skiing in the Italian Alps...

Yesterday evening our Primeminister announced the following:

- All non essential public employees are being sent home for two weeks. Excluding health-care, elderly-care and some day-care personel.
- All schools, universities and other educational facilities are closed
- All public events with more than 100 people are cancelled.
- Bars, restaurants, night clubs etc. have been asked to voluntarily close down for 14 days. (There is no law here to force the issue)
- Private employers are being asked to send as many people as possible home. Working from home, vacation time are all options here. If possible close up shop for 2 weeks.

Other things that have happened:

- Many retired doctors and nurses have volunteered if our national healthcare system start buckling from the pressure. They do this knowing full well the risks if they get infected.
- People shop for crazy amounts of food. Hopefully this will pass since there is food enough for everyone.

Basically the entire country has shut down. I will post status updates as I get them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 12, 2020, 01:06:54 AM
Sit-rep from NZ:

Um.... no change. People were buying toilet paper but soon realised that was just peer pressure! There are supposedly checks and self isolation type things at the border. Day to day no change at all for most people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 12, 2020, 05:56:55 AM
How's this for stupid?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/jazz/2020/03/11/rudy-gobert-nba-jazz-joked-coronavirus-touched-reporters-recorders-interview/5028089002/

NBA player tests positive for CV. Two days earlier, he was joking about the virus and making a point to touch every microphone and recorder that reporters had.

The NBA has now suspended their season, and I would guess that the NCAA and NHL are soon to follow suit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Reader on March 12, 2020, 06:31:48 AM
Here's a 27 minute investigative report from Simone Gao that questions whether the Chinese statistics and spin can be trusted. It was published 16 hours ago.
you don't have to believe what they say. just watch what they do. there are still restrictions between beijing the capital and the other cities in china. anyone who comes into beijing will be quarantined for two weeks. so china is only truly safe when they open up the travel restrictions fully between beijing and all cities of china.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/15/asia/coronavirus-covid-19-update-intl-hnk/index.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Zoot on March 12, 2020, 06:56:00 AM
On a light-hearted note:

Here is a sit-rep from Denmark.
Sit-rep from NZ:

Today I learned the word sitrep (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sitrep).  ;-)

I can't believe I've never come across this incredibly useful word before--and I fully intend to incorporate it into my vocabulary!  I will forever associate it with the COVID-19 time in my life.  ;-)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Spud on March 12, 2020, 07:40:53 AM
This was interesting but not comforting - How Serious is the Coronavirus? Infectious Disease Expert Michael Osterholm Explains | Joe Rogan (https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 12, 2020, 07:56:29 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 12, 2020, 08:14:19 AM
This was interesting but not comforting - How Serious is the Coronavirus? Infectious Disease Expert Michael Osterholm Explains | Joe Rogan (https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts)


More very good info. 


The link above is just the first 15 minutes of an 1:30 long interview. 


here's the complete version:  [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw)[/size]
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Miss Prim on March 12, 2020, 08:18:57 AM
This was interesting but not comforting - How Serious is the Coronavirus? Infectious Disease Expert Michael Osterholm Explains | Joe Rogan (https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts)
This!  Best information by far!  Everyone should listen to this infectious disease Dr.  I really thought that having gone through the SARS and MERS outbreaks, that this would not be any different, but it is.  Thank goodness it doesn't appear to affect children so much.  Being over 60 myself, I am starting to get more worried.

                                                                              Miss Prim
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedom2016 on March 12, 2020, 08:20:30 AM
This was interesting but not comforting - How Serious is the Coronavirus? Infectious Disease Expert Michael Osterholm Explains | Joe Rogan (https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts)


More very good info. 


The link above is just the first 15 minutes of an 1:30 long interview. 


here's the complete version:  [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw)[/size]

It seemed like the doctor was implying or suggesting that closing schools was a bad idea, comparing it to Hep A. But  but but  -- aren't kids carriers that spread the virus even if they don't get sick themselves??
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 12, 2020, 08:30:36 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 12, 2020, 09:01:56 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 12, 2020, 09:19:15 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dulcimina on March 12, 2020, 09:21:20 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

Is this the right Johns Hopkins link? Apparently there are some fakes out there.

Quote
March 11, 2020 – An increasing number of articles have been published on the Internet with unclear and sometimes misleading information concerning one of the primary dashboards for awareness concerning the spread of the Coronavirus.  To be clear, the online map posted by John Hopkins University at https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html does NOT contain any malware (and NEVER contained malware).  This popular dashboard web application is hosted by Esri as part of our ArcGIS Online offering.

The confusion comes from an issue where a malicious person created a downloadable Windows-based application containing malware whose display is practically identical to the John Hopkins Coronavirus browser-based dashboard (see comparison figure below).  Whomever posted the malicious downloadable app is attempting to take advantage of the hype around the Coronavirus, but it requires the user to either download the app executable, or it could be distributed by email for the user to then install onto their local Windows system.
https://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-online/administration/coronavirus-downloadable-malware-map-app-clarification/ (https://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-online/administration/coronavirus-downloadable-malware-map-app-clarification/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dignam on March 12, 2020, 09:28:39 AM
On a positive note, we had someone do the textbook correct thing when they first noticed symptoms.  We've had about 6 total cases in Wisconsin, this one was #3 I believe.  He got back from traveling within the US, realized he matched symptoms of COVID-19, and immediately called the hospital.  They took him in through a back door of the hospital designated for this sort of thing where he would be in minimal contact with others.  It's been praised as an example of exactly how this should be handled.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 12, 2020, 09:30:41 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.

I was in Alabama a couple of weeks ago and when checking into the hotel a bus load of people of Asian origin (and English was clearly not the first language) pulled up to check in to the hotel.  Not sure where they hailed from or how long in the US but Alabama was being visited.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 12, 2020, 09:31:37 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

I'm so sorry. That is shitty and miserable.

I gave my husband the info for the Wayne County dept of health if his co-worker tries to show up today.

I know that one of the confirmed patients is at UM Hospital. If your son doesn't recover soon, you may want to contact UM or Beaumont for testing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 12, 2020, 09:49:23 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.

I was in Alabama a couple of weeks ago and when checking into the hotel a bus load of people of Asian origin (and English was clearly not the first language) pulled up to check in to the hotel.  Not sure where they hailed from or how long in the US but Alabama was being visited.   

Well, fine. Everyone just suck the fun out of my joke about how awful Alabama is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 12, 2020, 09:52:00 AM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.

I was in Alabama a couple of weeks ago and when checking into the hotel a bus load of people of Asian origin (and English was clearly not the first language) pulled up to check in to the hotel.  Not sure where they hailed from or how long in the US but Alabama was being visited.   

Well, fine. Everyone just suck the fun out of my joke about how awful Alabama is.

On that point we agree, there probably aren't any cases there bc they don't have two nickels to rub together to buy the test kits (not that many are available anyway).  Until the fed sends kits to AL then there won't be any cases there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dougules on March 12, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
Well, fine. Everyone just suck the fun out of my joke about how awful Alabama is.

On that point we agree, there probably aren't any cases there bc they don't have two nickels to rub together to buy the test kits (not that many are available anyway).  Until the fed sends kits to AL then there won't be any cases there.

Alabamian here.  It's funny because it's true.  We were up to having tested all of 20 people by Tuesday in a state of almost 5 million.  I wonder if we're up to 30 people tested yet.  There are already rumors of the local hospital having people showing obvious symptoms, but nobody wanting to pay for running the test. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 12, 2020, 10:13:28 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: popbottlepirate on March 12, 2020, 11:27:32 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 12, 2020, 11:50:14 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

I'm in detroit right now too, less than 10 miles from you.

He lives on milk and yogurt and cheese.  We are having a hard time getting him to eat anything else.  Thanks for the input, we will check into what we can possibly do to help him stop getting ear infections.  After the last infection dr told us we would discuss ear tubes if he got another infection, so that's probably the next step after this infection gets cleared up.  Hopefully that will be enough, but we may have to consider more options.  I've never had an ear infection but I hear they are extremely painful.  Based on his behavior during the infections I believe it.  He will randomly start punching objects for no reason - no reason other than he is probably in pain and feels like shit and doesn't understand so he just punches his crib, or pillow, or us or whatever he can reach to take out his frustrations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 12, 2020, 11:56:55 AM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

I'm in detroit right now too, less than 10 miles from you.

He lives on milk and yogurt and cheese.  We are having a hard time getting him to eat anything else.  Thanks for the input, we will check into what we can possibly do to help him stop getting ear infections.  After the last infection dr told us we would discuss ear tubes if he got another infection, so that's probably the next step after this infection gets cleared up.  Hopefully that will be enough, but we may have to consider more options.  I've never had an ear infection but I hear they are extremely painful.  Based on his behavior during the infections I believe it.  He will randomly start punching objects for no reason - no reason other than he is probably in pain and feels like shit and doesn't understand so he just punches his crib, or pillow, or us or whatever he can reach to take out his frustrations.
If you can't get him off dairy, how about trying lactose free dairy?  Just a thought, but possibly the easiest thing to try and probably can't do any harm.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 12, 2020, 12:06:02 PM
For me it was grains more than dairy. If you tried a grain free dairy free diet for a month something magical might happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Here4theGB on March 12, 2020, 12:31:40 PM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

I'm in detroit right now too, less than 10 miles from you.

He lives on milk and yogurt and cheese.  We are having a hard time getting him to eat anything else.  Thanks for the input, we will check into what we can possibly do to help him stop getting ear infections.  After the last infection dr told us we would discuss ear tubes if he got another infection, so that's probably the next step after this infection gets cleared up.  Hopefully that will be enough, but we may have to consider more options.  I've never had an ear infection but I hear they are extremely painful.  Based on his behavior during the infections I believe it.  He will randomly start punching objects for no reason - no reason other than he is probably in pain and feels like shit and doesn't understand so he just punches his crib, or pillow, or us or whatever he can reach to take out his frustrations.
Another anecdote.  I had terrible ear infection problems as a baby/toddler/younger person including tubes.  Multiple episodes every year.  I'm sure it made my mom miserable.  Anyways, as it was explained to me by the doc, I simply "outgrew" it.  I'm not sure how that works as I'm certainly no doctor, but now in my 40's I haven't had a problem with my ears in ~35+ years.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 12, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

I'm in detroit right now too, less than 10 miles from you.

He lives on milk and yogurt and cheese.  We are having a hard time getting him to eat anything else.  Thanks for the input, we will check into what we can possibly do to help him stop getting ear infections.  After the last infection dr told us we would discuss ear tubes if he got another infection, so that's probably the next step after this infection gets cleared up.  Hopefully that will be enough, but we may have to consider more options.  I've never had an ear infection but I hear they are extremely painful.  Based on his behavior during the infections I believe it.  He will randomly start punching objects for no reason - no reason other than he is probably in pain and feels like shit and doesn't understand so he just punches his crib, or pillow, or us or whatever he can reach to take out his frustrations.
Another anecdote.  I had terrible ear infection problems as a baby/toddler/younger person including tubes.  Multiple episodes every year.  I'm sure it made my mom miserable.  Anyways, as it was explained to me by the doc, I simply "outgrew" it.  I'm not sure how that works as I'm certainly no doctor, but now in my 40's I haven't had a problem with my ears in ~35+ years.

I also outgrew it, but when I need antibiotics in my 20s, I found that I had developed an allergy to penicillin from all the bubblegum amoxy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 12, 2020, 12:52:54 PM
Husband’s coworker went home early today with a fever and heavy cough. And now we wait to see if husband develops symptoms. Could be influenza, could be COVID-19.

Also in metro detroit.  My son has had a fever since sunday.  He's been waking up coughing every 30-40 minutes every night.  It's been brutal.  Called the dr office and they don't want to see anyone that is suspected of having a viral infection.  They just want them to stay home.  He has a history of ear infections (3 double ear infections since Oct) so they are going to see him today in case he has that (he hasn't been complaining of ear pain, but has been complaining his head hurts and his stomach hurts - but he is only 2 so I think he also just repeats a lot of stuff).  They said it sounds like he may have coronavirus (or not, could be just a flu or cold).  They don't have the capability to test him anyway so we won't know unless they deem him bad enough to be sent to the hospital.  Not sure if the hospital will be able to test for it or not.  Would really like to avoid the hospital if at all possible though.  Seems like a sure fire way to get exposed to the virus (and other viruses) if he's (we) not already.  We've been working with him on covering his cough, but as a typical 2 year old he often just open mouth coughs directly into our faces or on the table or literally anywhere he is.  Whatever virus he has me and my wife surely have it as well.  Not sure if it's the same virus we both had the past few weeks, or if this is a new one he is going to pass to us.  We've all been sick a lot in the past 6 months.

Wife has been sick with at least 1 virus which was bad.  Sick for 1-2 weeks.  Sore throat, coughing, drainage, feeling like shit.
I've been sick 4 times since October.  All similar cold like viruses.
My son has been sick probably 12-15 times with various symptoms.  It's hard to know exactly how many times since I'm pretty sure some of the longer ones were likely 2,3, or 4 infections that happened consecutively with no recovery between them.   

It's been a shitty 6 months in the nacho household.

Negative for the flu.  Dr. thinks it's unlikely to be coronavirus either.  He has another double ear infection and asthma.  Thats 4 double ear infections since October! This shit is bananas!  I'm gonna check into the possibility of just having his ears removed.

Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

I'm in detroit right now too, less than 10 miles from you.

He lives on milk and yogurt and cheese.  We are having a hard time getting him to eat anything else.  Thanks for the input, we will check into what we can possibly do to help him stop getting ear infections.  After the last infection dr told us we would discuss ear tubes if he got another infection, so that's probably the next step after this infection gets cleared up.  Hopefully that will be enough, but we may have to consider more options.  I've never had an ear infection but I hear they are extremely painful.  Based on his behavior during the infections I believe it.  He will randomly start punching objects for no reason - no reason other than he is probably in pain and feels like shit and doesn't understand so he just punches his crib, or pillow, or us or whatever he can reach to take out his frustrations.
Another anecdote.  I had terrible ear infection problems as a baby/toddler/younger person including tubes.  Multiple episodes every year.  I'm sure it made my mom miserable.  Anyways, as it was explained to me by the doc, I simply "outgrew" it.  I'm not sure how that works as I'm certainly no doctor, but now in my 40's I haven't had a problem with my ears in ~35+ years.

I also outgrew it, but when I need antibiotics in my 20s, I found that I had developed an allergy to penicillin from all the bubblegum amoxy.

I was as a kid and still am as an adult prone to ear infections....and they are painful once they hit a certain point.  I find that when my ear starts feeling funny I put a few drops of rubbing alcohol in there and swish it around - that usually clears it up if I get to it right away.   Kids won't get this but if you see them rubbing, pulling or whatever at the ear then do it then.   Beyond that point it is too late.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ambimammular on March 12, 2020, 04:03:40 PM
I work in a building of 200 some kindergarteners and 1st graders. The number of times we have to wash hands is incredible. We will just finish in the bathrooms, and one kid will literally lick palm to fingertip on both hands, another will be wiggling a tooth, and a third will be picking his nose. We pitched all their crayons and gave them new sets, washed their pencils and erasers, etc. But it is impossible to wipe down every counting cube, lego, paperback book they lay hands on.

We're in a low socio-economic area. Those kids will always be back at school the next day if they're sent home throwing up, or with a fever. The parents have no where else to put them, as they themselves need to go to work. Once the first kidlet gets it, it's all over for us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 12, 2020, 05:11:19 PM
Speaking of little kids, yesterday CNN had an article asking "How will kids eat?" if there is a temporary shut down of schools.  It reminded me how weak people can be when they expect government to do All Things.     

You do realize that we started the school lunch program because military recruits were malnourished (https://psmag.com/magazine/the-history-of-school-lunches) and than in poor neighborhoods many schools have year round lunch (and breakfast)? I know, they kept me alive growing up.

But I mostly agree that the country should have a solution that is better than walking a mile to get a meal, and now might be the time to implement that solution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MayDay on March 12, 2020, 05:28:45 PM
I don't have a large concern with kids walking to get a meal. It would be confined to a small geographical area.

I have also seen some districts may deliver meals.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: VAR on March 12, 2020, 05:34:36 PM
I work in a school where almost all of the kids get breakfast and lunch at school. Many are homeless and live in hotels with no kitchens. The only food they get is at school. Parents don't have cars and there are no grocery stores for several miles even if they have $ to buy food/had a place to cook. Our district just shut down schools.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Chaplin on March 12, 2020, 05:53:42 PM
Hey FrugalNacho, I'm sure you don't need unsolicited advice. But I had terrible ear infections as a kid (including ear tubes) until my parents removed dairy from my diet. It's something about increased mucus production making it harder for the ears to clear so bacteria thrives. Take it for what you will. Also coincidentally I'm working in Detroit down at Campus Martius currently. It's a bit of a ghost town.

It was the same for our son. Once we got rid of the dairy the ear infections stopped. In our case it was anything cow related (even lactose-free), but goat and sheep milk were fine. This kid gets goat cheese and doesn't realize that for most people that's a more luxury, acquired taste.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ambimammular on March 12, 2020, 06:31:29 PM
70% of my school's kiddos are on the free or reduced lunch program. Food insecurity is a real problem in our community. They will feel hungry during the two weeks+ at home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 12, 2020, 07:18:20 PM
Another good video presented in an easy to understand manner. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqw-9yMV0sI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqw-9yMV0sI)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 13, 2020, 07:11:20 AM
This tweet is important:  https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1238317636536004614 (https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1238317636536004614)

It's the same in other countries, too.

Many politicians and sports personalities worldwide, even celebrities like Tom Hanks and his wife — are getting tested and turning out positive.

That must mean something: of course, they're getting tested because they have influence and no-one's going to say 'No' to them if they ask for a test. But that's not the real point I'm making.

The number turning out positive is the thing to look at. This group of publicly high-profile people is but a tiny percentage of the population. Yet look at the numbers of positives.

What this means is that the numbers of actual positives in the whole population, if they were all to be tested, and which isn't happening — is maybe 100x or even 1000x the currently reported numbers. We have to confront the fact that this thing is just everywhere.

I'd predict with high confidence (but some reluctance!) that many more politicians and celebrities will report being infected in the next few weeks. At some point, regular people will start to realize what this means for them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 13, 2020, 07:23:58 AM
If that's the case then the death rate is much lower than currently being assessed and there's not much to worry about unless you/your immediate family are elderly, in poor health or immunocompromised.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 13, 2020, 07:25:45 AM
This tweet is important:  https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1238317636536004614 (https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1238317636536004614)

It's the same in other countries, too.

Many politicians and sports personalities worldwide, even celebrities like Tom Hanks and his wife — are getting tested and turning out positive.

That must mean something: of course, they're getting tested because they have influence and no-one's going to say 'No' to them if they ask for a test. But that's not the real point I'm making.

The number turning out positive is the thing to look at. This group of publicly high-profile people is but a tiny percentage of the population. Yet look at the numbers of positives.

What this means is that the numbers of actual positives in the whole population, if they were all to be tested, and which isn't happening — is maybe 100x or even 1000x the currently reported numbers. We have to confront the fact that this thing is just everywhere.

I'd predict with high confidence (but some reluctance!) that many more politicians and celebrities will report being infected in the next few weeks. At some point, regular people will start to realize what this means for them.

So lots of people are positive but we don't even know because we aren't testing.  But surely there are not large parts of the population getting very sick and dying without us knowing.  Those that fall gravely ill are being tested.  It seems like the other side of the coin is that 99% or 99.9% (according to your estimates) of those infected are not dying and not showing symptoms bad enough to even warrant testing them, unless they are a high profile celebrity or politician. 

Wouldn't that mean the mortality rate is but a mere fraction of the initial estimate? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 13, 2020, 07:45:09 AM
So lots of people are positive but we don't even know because we aren't testing.  But surely there are not large parts of the population getting very sick and dying without us knowing.  Those that fall gravely ill are being tested.  It seems like the other side of the coin is that 99% or 99.9% (according to your estimates) of those infected are not dying and not showing symptoms bad enough to even warrant testing them, unless they are a high profile celebrity or politician. 

Wouldn't that mean the mortality rate is but a mere fraction of the initial estimate?

This has a really good explanation of what's likely to be happening in regards to your question.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca?fbclid=IwAR3G2qzT537J_M8GZPh4uUTjgQybdvHdC_h6fQaxKWQIQAQuIAtUW-RthVI
 (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca?fbclid=IwAR3G2qzT537J_M8GZPh4uUTjgQybdvHdC_h6fQaxKWQIQAQuIAtUW-RthVI)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 13, 2020, 07:46:30 AM
If that's the case then the death rate is much lower than currently being assessed and there's not much to worry about unless you/your immediate family are elderly, in poor health or immunocompromised.

Yep, that population includes my parents and in-laws, all of my and my husband's aunts and uncles, a few cousins, and many friends and neighbors. Not to mention several posters on these forums.

Social distancing, folks. Even if it probably won't kill you, it could be really harmful to the more vulnerable in our society. It isn't irrational to take unusual measures to protect them
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 13, 2020, 08:13:24 AM
If that's the case then the death rate is much lower than currently being assessed and there's not much to worry about unless you/your immediate family are elderly, in poor health or immunocompromised.

Yep, that population includes my parents and in-laws, all of my and my husband's aunts and uncles, a few cousins, and many friends and neighbors. Not to mention several posters on these forums.

Social distancing, folks. Even if it probably won't kill you, it could be really harmful to the more vulnerable in our society. It isn't irrational to take unusual measures to protect them

This disease appears to spread fairly easily.   Let's run some numbers and see what the results might be:

US population is about 330 million.  Let's see what happens if 25% of the public gets the disease at various fatality rates.   If the health system is overwhelmed then the 4% is definitely possible.

Divide those numbers by 5 if you think only 5% of the population will get the disease.   But read the article I posted in my prior post first.    This disease spreads exponentially and we all know how exponential growth works.
Infection %Fatality %Deaths
25%0.5%412,500
25%1%825,000
25%2%1,650,000
25%4%3,300,000
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 13, 2020, 08:22:29 AM
Options I can see:

1. The infection rate really is lower than these fears indicate.
2. The death rate is lower than feared.
3. Infection rate really is high, death rate really is 1-3%, but people are still incubating/spreading and the numbers we're seeing at the hospitals haven't exploded yet.

If it's #3, then the next days/week are going to get progressively bad, and then keep getting worse until the US closes down sufficiently AND enough time has passed that the current crop of infections work through the system (max incubation period + max infectious period), then it'll slowly start to get better but at that point the system is probably fucked.

Based on historical epidemics, and what's happening in Italy and other countries, I'm guessing it's #3.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 13, 2020, 08:28:54 AM
I think it's more likely to be #1 or #2, judging from the stringency of European and Australian response to the coronavirus - banning large get-togethers, shutting down schools etc

It all seems like a very conservative approach to me and one that will have the virus well under control within a few weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 13, 2020, 08:30:55 AM
If that's the case then the death rate is much lower than currently being assessed and there's not much to worry about unless you/your immediate family are elderly, in poor health or immunocompromised.

Yep, that population includes my parents and in-laws, all of my and my husband's aunts and uncles, a few cousins, and many friends and neighbors. Not to mention several posters on these forums.

Social distancing, folks. Even if it probably won't kill you, it could be really harmful to the more vulnerable in our society. It isn't irrational to take unusual measures to protect them

This disease appears to spread fairly easily.   Let's run some numbers and see what the results might be:

US population is about 330 million.  Let's see what happens if 25% of the public gets the disease at various fatality rates.   If the health system is overwhelmed then the 4% is definitely possible.

Divide those numbers by 5 if you think only 5% of the population will get the disease.   But read the article I posted in my prior post first.    This disease spreads exponentially and we all know how exponential growth works.
Infection %Fatality %Deaths
25%0.5%412,500
25%1%825,000
25%2%1,650,000
25%4%3,300,000

And the numbers are probably worse than you propose. Experts are saying that 40-70 percent of our population will become infected. And that the number of cases is doubling every 4 days because it spreads so quickly.

Lets say only 3% of your 25% need ICU beds. That's 2.5 million beds needed - in a country that has fewer than a million ICU beds. We need to slow this puppy way down or doctors will have to decide who is worth saving.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 13, 2020, 08:36:33 AM
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/12/814522489/singapore-wins-praise-for-its-covid-19-strategy-the-u-s-does-not

This link has a great visual. Unfortunately, the US curve looks a lot like Italy's curve did just a couple weeks ago. Not pretty.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 13, 2020, 08:40:48 AM
The entire world right now:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3lopzUAc6yVq0/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611c385b909b633a589160d9626fd4c8b08406e9d21&rid=giphy.gif)

(https://media.giphy.com/media/HUkOv6BNWc1HO/giphy.gif)

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3bLhqnqJjMNtC/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 13, 2020, 08:45:17 AM
Apple just reopened all its stores in China and life is coming back.  This too shall pass.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 13, 2020, 08:47:59 AM
Apple just reopened all its stores in China and life is coming back.  This too shall pass.

If there's any beacon of safety and concern for human welfare in the world it's certainly Apple's actions in China right?


:P
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 13, 2020, 08:59:57 AM
If that's the case then the death rate is much lower than currently being assessed and there's not much to worry about unless you/your immediate family are elderly, in poor health or immunocompromised.

Yep, that population includes my parents and in-laws, all of my and my husband's aunts and uncles, a few cousins, and many friends and neighbors. Not to mention several posters on these forums.

Social distancing, folks. Even if it probably won't kill you, it could be really harmful to the more vulnerable in our society. It isn't irrational to take unusual measures to protect them

This disease appears to spread fairly easily.   Let's run some numbers and see what the results might be:

US population is about 330 million.  Let's see what happens if 25% of the public gets the disease at various fatality rates.   If the health system is overwhelmed then the 4% is definitely possible.

Divide those numbers by 5 if you think only 5% of the population will get the disease.   But read the article I posted in my prior post first.    This disease spreads exponentially and we all know how exponential growth works.
Infection %Fatality %Deaths
25%0.5%412,500
25%1%825,000
25%2%1,650,000
25%4%3,300,000

And the numbers are probably worse than you propose. Experts are saying that 40-70 percent of our population will become infected. And that the number of cases is doubling every 4 days because it spreads so quickly.

Lets say only 3% of your 25% need ICU beds. That's 2.5 million beds needed - in a country that has fewer than a million ICU beds. We need to slow this puppy way down or doctors will have to decide who is worth saving.

I'm not "proposing" those numbers.  I'm just saving people from having to do all the math.   It's a pain in the but to put data into tabular format and I figured anyone can multiply those numbers by 2 or 3 to handle the 50% and 75% infection rates.

I used the lower of  the three infection percentages to demonstrate that even at those rates the results will be very bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 13, 2020, 09:23:30 AM
I wasn't trying to disparage...I agree with you and was only pointing out that 25% is a conservative guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 13, 2020, 09:52:58 AM
I think it's more likely to be #1 or #2, judging from the stringency of European and Australian response to the coronavirus - banning large get-togethers, shutting down schools etc

It all seems like a very conservative approach to me and one that will have the virus well under control within a few weeks.

My comment was specific to the US, should have included that. I don't know what's happening in Australia. I hope you've gotten ahead of it and can thus minimize real life impact. The US, right now, is not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 13, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
The general data suggests that the elderly are mainly at risk, but many people tend to overlook the fact that so many younger Americans are obese and have other health issues.  I think 40% of Americans are considered obese.  How many Americans have asthma?  How many are fighting cancer and other illnesses?  When you add up all those groups of Americans it becomes a huge number that will require medical attention, and likely hospitalization.  We are a unique population.  The resulting numbers may not be so favorable here.










Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on March 13, 2020, 10:24:33 AM
Options I can see:

1. The infection rate really is lower than these fears indicate.
2. The death rate is lower than feared.
3. Infection rate really is high, death rate really is 1-3%, but people are still incubating/spreading and the numbers we're seeing at the hospitals haven't exploded yet.

If it's #3, then the next days/week are going to get progressively bad, and then keep getting worse until the US closes down sufficiently AND enough time has passed that the current crop of infections work through the system (max incubation period + max infectious period), then it'll slowly start to get better but at that point the system is probably fucked.

Based on historical epidemics, and what's happening in Italy and other countries, I'm guessing it's #3.

I'm betting on #3 too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 13, 2020, 10:27:50 AM
My money is on #3...literally...ha!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: iris lily on March 13, 2020, 10:44:37 AM
Options I can see:

1. The infection rate really is lower than these fears indicate.
2. The death rate is lower than feared.
3. Infection rate really is high, death rate really is 1-3%, but people are still incubating/spreading and the numbers we're seeing at the hospitals haven't exploded yet.

If it's #3, then the next days/week are going to get progressively bad, and then keep getting worse until the US closes down sufficiently AND enough time has passed that the current crop of infections work through the system (max incubation period + max infectious period), then it'll slowly start to get better but at that point the system is probably fucked.

Based on historical epidemics, and what's happening in Italy and other countries, I'm guessing it's #3.

I'm betting on #3 too.

Oh absolutely, people are infected and spreading and are spreading it. That hasn’t hit hospitals yet let overloaded hospitals. But it will.

In the “people are stupid“ column, we are squabbling in my community garden group about holding our annual meeting this coming Sunday. This is a meeting and a food event where we are crowded into a small space sitting shoulder to shoulder,  hunched over food on our laps and breathing on everyone and everything including the carrots going into our mouth. Holy infection rate, batman!

One of the consistently self-centered people in the group has the sadz because he
“HateS to see a virus destroy our sense of community.“ When the physician in our group recommended we cancel and stated she will not attend, he responded we should be sure to practice good hygiene, But hole the event because he wants to.

This is a time for every citizen to take full responsibility for community health.

I see hypocrisy in the extreme with people who want what they want,  and when asked to disrupt a tiny way their little lives for the sake of community health, they refuse. These are the same people who often and loudly malign anti-VAXers. I see this as an intellectual disconnect, but I also understand that the average healthy American still is not getting the potential threat of this virus. My God when Disney closes you would think that would signal hell has frozen over but I guess not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 13, 2020, 11:15:20 AM
Options I can see:

1. The infection rate really is lower than these fears indicate.
2. The death rate is lower than feared.
3. Infection rate really is high, death rate really is 1-3%, but people are still incubating/spreading and the numbers we're seeing at the hospitals haven't exploded yet.

If it's #3, then the next days/week are going to get progressively bad, and then keep getting worse until the US closes down sufficiently AND enough time has passed that the current crop of infections work through the system (max incubation period + max infectious period), then it'll slowly start to get better but at that point the system is probably fucked.

Based on historical epidemics, and what's happening in Italy and other countries, I'm guessing it's #3.

I'm betting on #3 too.

Oh absolutely, people are infected and spreading and are spreading it. That hasn’t hit hospitals yet let overloaded hospitals. But it will.

In the “people are stupid“ column, we are squabbling in my community garden group about holding our annual meeting this coming Sunday. This is a meeting and a food event where we are crowded into a small space sitting shoulder to shoulder,  hunched over food on our laps and breathing on everyone and everything including the carrots going into our mouth. Holy infection rate, batman!

One of the consistently self-centered people in the group has the sadz because he
“HateS to see a virus destroy our sense of community.“ When the physician in our group recommended we cancel and stated she will not attend, he responded we should be sure to practice good hygiene, But hole the event because he wants to.

This is a time for every citizen to take full responsibility for community health.

I see hypocrisy in the extreme with people who want what they want,  and when asked to disrupt a tiny way their little lives for the sake of community health, they refuse. These are the same people who often and loudly malign anti-VAXers. I see this as an intellectual disconnect, but I also understand that the average healthy American still is not getting the potential threat of this virus. My God when Disney closes you would think that would signal hell has frozen over but I guess not.

I figured the shutdown of pro sports would have done it. Apparently there are some people who refuse to accept reality, no matter what. I expect the Venn diagram of those people with the ones who interrupt me at the supermarket to tell me the flat earth gospel is a single, fully overlapping circle.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 13, 2020, 12:14:33 PM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.

I was in Alabama a couple of weeks ago and when checking into the hotel a bus load of people of Asian origin (and English was clearly not the first language) pulled up to check in to the hotel.  Not sure where they hailed from or how long in the US but Alabama was being visited.   

Well, fine. Everyone just suck the fun out of my joke about how awful Alabama is.

On that point we agree, there probably aren't any cases there bc they don't have two nickels to rub together to buy the test kits (not that many are available anyway).  Until the fed sends kits to AL then there won't be any cases there.

Alabama made it to the final three, but are now out of the running for the bunker of last resistance. Who will win Survivor: Coronavirus? Idaho, where the only proper response to federal encroachment like "coronavirus tests" is to come out with guns blazing, or West Virginia, where spread of coronavirus is much lower than average due to various blood feuds and especially "tight-knit" families?

(J/K)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mwulff on March 13, 2020, 12:29:04 PM
Another sit-rep from Denmark:

- The borders are being closed as of tomorrow at noon. Only good and other essential travel will be allowed to cross the border.
- Corona is spreading but we are trying to limit it.
- This virus is going to get nasty and people will die.
- We are trying to minimize the peak load on our hospitals and doctors so that we have the capacity to put people in intensive care when they actually need them.

It is a weird experience. The entire country has gone quiet and we are all just waiting with bathed breath.

This will get bad but we are helping one another and people are rallying behind the government.

/Wulff
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on March 13, 2020, 12:56:15 PM
Another sit-rep from Denmark:

- The borders are being closed as of tomorrow at noon. Only good and other essential travel will be allowed to cross the border.
- Corona is spreading but we are trying to limit it.
- This virus is going to get nasty and people will die.
- We are trying to minimize the peak load on our hospitals and doctors so that we have the capacity to put people in intensive care when they actually need them.

It is a weird experience. The entire country has gone quiet and we are all just waiting with bathed breath.

This will get bad but we are helping one another and people are rallying behind the government.

/Wulff

Different details but similar vibe in Sweden.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GodlessCommie on March 13, 2020, 03:24:55 PM
Another sit-rep from Denmark:

- The borders are being closed as of tomorrow at noon. Only good and other essential travel will be allowed to cross the border.
- Corona is spreading but we are trying to limit it.
- This virus is going to get nasty and people will die.
- We are trying to minimize the peak load on our hospitals and doctors so that we have the capacity to put people in intensive care when they actually need them.

It is a weird experience. The entire country has gone quiet and we are all just waiting with bathed breath.

This will get bad but we are helping one another and people are rallying behind the government.

/Wulff

Very comforting to hear that people are still able to collectively act for the common interest somewhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GodlessCommie on March 13, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.
"People who are not like me will die, and that's ok"
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on March 13, 2020, 03:40:44 PM
Sitrep from the festering sore of the mid-Atlantic (AKA Virginia):
-All schools shut down.
-Lots of folks going out on WFH. No rhyme or reason to it. Basically office by office.   
-The breweries seem to be pretty full. Key cultural litmus test here. When the going gets tough, the tough get ripped. 
-Shelves at markets not stripped, but getting there. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: happyuk on March 14, 2020, 12:06:18 PM
I think there's a reality check required.  I'm almost certain I'm at the arse end of a covid-19 infection myself. I'm NOT a statistic in the UK official account of the state of things covid-19.  I did what a lot of people would do, I got ill, and I clobbered it with my armoury of scrupulous hygiene, Vit C/D/Cod liver oil, keeping warm and keeping my head down and avoiding others. I've not called a doctor or been admitted to hospital. The state has no idea about me at all.  If I'm doing that, so are thousands of others. None of them are counted in the official stats.

And besides, the shuffling of pieces on the board are not a realistic protection strategy for the mass population. It's a protection strategy for the 'system', itself. The current actions are at least 2 months too late to be effective as bottom line citizen protection. I'll guess that people high up in the UK government already know that.

It's pretty obvious to me that covid-19 is now rampant here in UK. But, it's also pretty obvious to me also that it's not killing any more people than other rampant viruses here do. I assume all that is pretty obvious to the government too. Even their advice says "stay home and get through it on your own". Of course, they won't come right out and say the virus is everywhere and thousands of people are already dealing with it. Their advisers won't let them, for system crisis reasons, considering how hyped the biased media shit-show has made the whole subject.

Best think of covid 19 as this years cold-season and get on with it. That's pretty much what the UK government is doing anyway. The rest is hype-crisis-stabilisation. The supply chain crisis is a whole other story though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 14, 2020, 01:39:56 PM
I think there's a reality check required.

*****

But, it's also pretty obvious to me also that it's not killing any more people than other rampant viruses here do. I assume all that is pretty obvious to the government too. Even their advice says "stay home and get through it on your own". Of course, they won't come right out and say the virus is everywhere and thousands of people are already dealing with it. Their advisers won't let them, for system crisis reasons, considering how hyped the biased media shit-show has made the whole subject.

Best think of covid 19 as this years cold-season and get on with it.

Reality check: Your deductive reasoning skills appear to be flawed. Your method appears to take a personal anecdote (using self-diagnosis (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/07/self-diagnosis-on-internet-not-good-practice/), no less) and applying it to the population. Typically, deductive reasoning tries to use the available evidence to come to a statistical conclusion, and then one should make decisions based on this conclusion. Here, the evidence shows covid-19 to be hundreds if not thousands of times more deadly than the typical cold (I can't find actual statistics on life-years lost to the common cold, it is so rare and irrelevant for most people). If you've even browsed the news in the last couple of weeks, you'd see that hospitals in Italy and China have been swamped, with people left to die because equipment is not available, all because people like you buried their heads in the sand while the evidence was mounting that this is not the typical cold. Many other countries (including the U.S. and U.K.) are where Italy was two weeks ago.

Now, if you'd like to take another tack based on the actual evidence, such as "I'm cool with 10-20% of the elderly dying this year, it's a small sacrifice for the economic good", come out and say it. It's way more respectable, plus it has the benefit of actually being based in reality.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 14, 2020, 02:02:36 PM
I think there's a reality check required.  I'm almost certain I'm at the arse end of a covid-19 infection myself. I'm NOT a statistic in the UK official account of the state of things covid-19.  I did what a lot of people would do, I got ill, and I clobbered it with my armoury of scrupulous hygiene, Vit C/D/Cod liver oil, keeping warm and keeping my head down and avoiding others. I've not called a doctor or been admitted to hospital. The state has no idea about me at all.  If I'm doing that, so are thousands of others. None of them are counted in the official stats.

It seems like everyone with a cough, cold, or flu thinks he has COVID-19.  Unless you were tested positive for COVID-19, then you should not be included in the statistics.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 14, 2020, 02:36:53 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.
"People who are not like me will die, and that's ok"

Currently 2625 deaths outside of China, over half of that in Italy but Iran, Spain and France are rapidly coming up too! Still no worries about any people over 60 you may care about? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 14, 2020, 02:52:50 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.
"People who are not like me will die, and that's ok"

Yes, that is pretty sad.  And it's attitudes like that which will keep many young healthy people from self-quarantining and staying away from large crowds, therefore spreading it to the more vulnerable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 14, 2020, 03:27:10 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.
"People who are not like me will die, and that's ok"

Yes, that is pretty sad.  And it's attitudes like that which will keep many young healthy people from self-quarantining and staying away from large crowds, therefore spreading it to the more vulnerable.

It's also not quite adequate. This is half-assed research (feel free to do better):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-covid-19-q-and-a-protect-ourselves-vaccine

"What underlying conditions pose the biggest risk if you contract the virus?
The first thing to note is that most of the data we have about Covid-19 is from China. These indicate that heart disease, followed by diabetes, hypertension – high blood pressure – chronic lung disease and finally some cancers were the main risk factors."

Ok. In the US: (source: lazy googling)
-About 75 million have hypertension
-In 2016, 28.2 million were diagnosed with heart disease
-34.2 million have diabetes
-more than 35 million have chronic lung disease (asthma, COPD, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, etc)

This isn't just the elderly. And I really doubt that those who are obese or overweight will count as "healthy". If we have a LOT of people getting sick, there are going to be a lot of people who need help. The US does not have the medical capacity to handle it. Hospitals get stressed with normal flu season.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 14, 2020, 04:26:48 PM
Johns Hopkins has this website for information on case rates :

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Johns Hopkins is by far the best source. WHO and CDC are beyond useless, unless you're after yesterday's data.

And then there were five.... Who will be the last holdout from Coronavirus? Today in Survivor: Coronavirus, the corners of the America battle it out, where Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Maine, and West Virginia can all still pretend they don't have the virus, at least for another day.

In fairness, who is travelling to Alabama to actually give them the virus?

Alabama residents that have traveled elsewhere and are returning with the virus.

I was in Alabama a couple of weeks ago and when checking into the hotel a bus load of people of Asian origin (and English was clearly not the first language) pulled up to check in to the hotel.  Not sure where they hailed from or how long in the US but Alabama was being visited.   

Well, fine. Everyone just suck the fun out of my joke about how awful Alabama is.

On that point we agree, there probably aren't any cases there bc they don't have two nickels to rub together to buy the test kits (not that many are available anyway).  Until the fed sends kits to AL then there won't be any cases there.

Alabama made it to the final three, but are now out of the running for the bunker of last resistance. Who will win Survivor: Coronavirus? Idaho, where the only proper response to federal encroachment like "coronavirus tests" is to come out with guns blazing, or West Virginia, where spread of coronavirus is much lower than average due to various blood feuds and especially "tight-knit" families?

(J/K)

WV for the win!!!!!! Congrats, West Virginians, you get the consolation prize of knowing that your state is doing a wholly inadequate job of coronavirus testing (along with pretty much everybody else in the U.S.).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 14, 2020, 07:06:04 PM
I think there's a reality check required.

*****

But, it's also pretty obvious to me also that it's not killing any more people than other rampant viruses here do. I assume all that is pretty obvious to the government too. Even their advice says "stay home and get through it on your own". Of course, they won't come right out and say the virus is everywhere and thousands of people are already dealing with it. Their advisers won't let them, for system crisis reasons, considering how hyped the biased media shit-show has made the whole subject.

Best think of covid 19 as this years cold-season and get on with it.

Reality check: Your deductive reasoning skills appear to be flawed. Your method appears to take a personal anecdote (using self-diagnosis (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/07/self-diagnosis-on-internet-not-good-practice/), no less) and applying it to the population. Typically, deductive reasoning tries to use the available evidence to come to a statistical conclusion, and then one should make decisions based on this conclusion. Here, the evidence shows covid-19 to be hundreds if not thousands of times more deadly than the typical cold (I can't find actual statistics on life-years lost to the common cold, it is so rare and irrelevant for most people). If you've even browsed the news in the last couple of weeks, you'd see that hospitals in Italy and China have been swamped, with people left to die because equipment is not available, all because people like you buried their heads in the sand while the evidence was mounting that this is not the typical cold. Many other countries (including the U.S. and U.K.) are where Italy was two weeks ago.

Now, if you'd like to take another tack based on the actual evidence, such as "I'm cool with 10-20% of the elderly dying this year, it's a small sacrifice for the economic good", come out and say it. It's way more respectable, plus it has the benefit of actually being based in reality.

Well it is kind of hard to do anything other than self diagnose if everyone who shows even mild but not severe symptoms is asked to self quarantine and doesn't get tested. And yes, in that sense you do have to consider there may be hundreds of thousands of cases out there which do not get counted. This especially goes for the mild cases which does not make a reliable statistic at all.
And so far I have not seen much evidence that this virus is hundreds of thousands times more dangerous than the flu. How did you come up with that?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 14, 2020, 07:11:35 PM
I think there's a reality check required.

*****

But, it's also pretty obvious to me also that it's not killing any more people than other rampant viruses here do. I assume all that is pretty obvious to the government too. Even their advice says "stay home and get through it on your own". Of course, they won't come right out and say the virus is everywhere and thousands of people are already dealing with it. Their advisers won't let them, for system crisis reasons, considering how hyped the biased media shit-show has made the whole subject.

Best think of covid 19 as this years cold-season and get on with it.

Reality check: Your deductive reasoning skills appear to be flawed. Your method appears to take a personal anecdote (using self-diagnosis (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/07/self-diagnosis-on-internet-not-good-practice/), no less) and applying it to the population. Typically, deductive reasoning tries to use the available evidence to come to a statistical conclusion, and then one should make decisions based on this conclusion. Here, the evidence shows covid-19 to be hundreds if not thousands of times more deadly than the typical cold (I can't find actual statistics on life-years lost to the common cold, it is so rare and irrelevant for most people). If you've even browsed the news in the last couple of weeks, you'd see that hospitals in Italy and China have been swamped, with people left to die because equipment is not available, all because people like you buried their heads in the sand while the evidence was mounting that this is not the typical cold. Many other countries (including the U.S. and U.K.) are where Italy was two weeks ago.

Now, if you'd like to take another tack based on the actual evidence, such as "I'm cool with 10-20% of the elderly dying this year, it's a small sacrifice for the economic good", come out and say it. It's way more respectable, plus it has the benefit of actually being based in reality.

And so far I have not seen much evidence that this virus is hundreds of thousands times more dangerous than the flu. How did you come up with that?

You are confusing the common cold with the flu.  And you are confusing "hundreds if not thousands" with "hundreds of thousands".  These are critical distinctions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: familyandfarming on March 14, 2020, 07:48:03 PM
This might be construed as a goofy question, but please bear with me. My daughter lives two states away and works at a hospital and has two in daycare. Announced Friday, the schools in her county are closed but her daycare attached to a school is still open. My state has very few public school closings.

When would you leave to be there when/if the daycare is ultimately closed? Should I leave tomorrow (Sunday) or wait a few more days? Her position at the hospital is one that requires that she be there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 14, 2020, 07:50:10 PM
In Michigan they announced all schools would be closed and we got an email from the school that all schools were closed, but the daycare connected is remaining open.  A day later we got another email letting us the daycare portion is also shut down for the next 3 weeks. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 14, 2020, 08:04:37 PM
This might be construed as a goofy question, but please bear with me. My daughter lives two states away and works at a hospital and has two in daycare. Announced Friday, the schools in her county are closed but her daycare attached to a school is still open. My state has very few public school closings.

When would you leave to be there when/if the daycare is ultimately closed? Should I leave tomorrow (Sunday) or wait a few more days? Her position at the hospital is one that requires that she be there.

I would ask your daughter to call the day care and see if have any guidance. They may not, but it's worth asking.

I would also pack now, as much as you can at least. Do some math on how long it'll take you to get there. Try to streamline whatever is needed at your house so when you get the call, you can get on the road asap if needed. Check with your daughter on her work schedule, and if she could manage child care for however long it would take you to drive there. (Neighbor/friend/etc.) I know that I would be willing to help out in a pinch in this situation, I'm sure others would be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: familyandfarming on March 14, 2020, 08:08:13 PM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on March 15, 2020, 03:25:48 AM
I am considered essential personnel at a state safety net hospital, and the county has shut down the schools. As a result, we are stopping non-urgent clinic visits and will finish all currently scheduled non-urgent operations but not add any in preparation for a surge in the next few weeks. This may relieve some burden by reducing hours we need people at the hospitals. Also, our hospital is making some provisions for staff who would suffer undue hardship, and are essential, by expanding capacity of the daycare temporarily if needed. That being said, a sudden influx of new petri dishes would not be good for anyone. I would get prepared to move in with your grandkids for a month or so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 03:29:19 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 04:27:07 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 04:42:13 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
If an employee has no day care and can't take their child to work then the only option for the employee is to stay home and look after their child, right?  Whether it's been agreed as leave or not, right?   So in those circumstances either the employer provides the child care or the employer doesn't have an employee.  Given that the employer is a hospital and will need their staff to keep coming in they should have made plans for this emergency.  If they haven't then tough luck - there is no requirement for other family members to put themselves at risk because the hospital hasn't done a good job of emergency planning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 15, 2020, 05:46:29 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
If an employee has no day care and can't take their child to work then the only option for the employee is to stay home and look after their child, right?  Whether it's been agreed as leave or not, right?   So in those circumstances either the employer provides the child care or the employer doesn't have an employee.  Given that the employer is a hospital and will need their staff to keep coming in they should have made plans for this emergency.  If they haven't then tough luck - there is no requirement for other family members to put themselves at risk because the hospital hasn't done a good job of emergency planning.

You're not in the USA, right? Employers here generally do not give a shit about their employees' childcare situations. Hence why so many people are panicking as schools shut down for weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 05:49:50 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
If an employee has no day care and can't take their child to work then the only option for the employee is to stay home and look after their child, right?  Whether it's been agreed as leave or not, right?   So in those circumstances either the employer provides the child care or the employer doesn't have an employee.  Given that the employer is a hospital and will need their staff to keep coming in they should have made plans for this emergency.  If they haven't then tough luck - there is no requirement for other family members to put themselves at risk because the hospital hasn't done a good job of emergency planning.

You're not in the USA, right? Employers here generally do not give a shit about their employees' childcare situations. Hence why so many people are panicking as schools shut down for weeks.
No, I'm not in the USA.  But if employers want employees to turn up to work in an emergency they either make it possible for them to turn up or they expect them not to turn up.  I don't see any other outcome, and certainly employees have to do what is best for them and their families not what is best for their employer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MayDay on March 15, 2020, 07:06:40 AM
This might be construed as a goofy question, but please bear with me. My daughter lives two states away and works at a hospital and has two in daycare. Announced Friday, the schools in her county are closed but her daycare attached to a school is still open. My state has very few public school closings.

When would you leave to be there when/if the daycare is ultimately closed? Should I leave tomorrow (Sunday) or wait a few more days? Her position at the hospital is one that requires that she be there.

If she is likely to be exposed, I'd consider bringing her kids to your house and isolating at home with them to allow her to work and rest with no stress.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 15, 2020, 07:31:07 AM
My state and county have cited the hospital worker situation as a reason for not shutting schools (in addition to the lunch situation). I am a little worried about this because my hospital takes care of many immune compromised patients, and if everyone called in sick for every runny nose there would be no staff. From what I know of the virus it is very mild in kids and indistinguishable from a normal cold. The problem is there are so many other things going around that it is difficult to determine when to stay home from work and for how long, if a kid gets a snotty nose and gives it to the parent. There is also a punitive system of having to use vacation if you are sick for less than a week, and also potential job loss for calling in too many times in a year.

For the patients it has got to be worse because they will die if they don't get their treatments, but need to go to a hospital with lots of potentially infected people to get them. They have for the most part been surprisingly blase about the whole thing.

We have only had a couple confirmed cases so far and no known community spread, so time will tell. We have more testing going on than most places too.


Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 15, 2020, 07:54:24 AM
My state and county have cited the hospital worker situation as a reason for not shutting schools (in addition to the lunch situation). I am a little worried about this because my hospital takes care of many immune compromised patients, and if everyone called in sick for every runny nose there would be no staff. From what I know of the virus it is very mild in kids and indistinguishable from a normal cold. The problem is there are so many other things going around that it is difficult to determine when to stay home from work and for how long, if a kid gets a snotty nose and gives it to the parent. There is also a punitive system of having to use vacation if you are sick for less than a week, and also potential job loss for calling in too many times in a year.

For the patients it has got to be worse because they will die if they don't get their treatments, but need to go to a hospital with lots of potentially infected people to get them. They have for the most part been surprisingly blase about the whole thing.

We have only had a couple confirmed cases so far and no known community spread, so time will tell. We have more testing going on than most places too.

This situation has existed for a long time, with people having to decide between getting paid and the health of their coworkers.

It'll (hopefully) become more visible in light of a situation like coronavirus but...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 08:05:03 AM
My state and county have cited the hospital worker situation as a reason for not shutting schools (in addition to the lunch situation). I am a little worried about this because my hospital takes care of many immune compromised patients, and if everyone called in sick for every runny nose there would be no staff. From what I know of the virus it is very mild in kids and indistinguishable from a normal cold. The problem is there are so many other things going around that it is difficult to determine when to stay home from work and for how long, if a kid gets a snotty nose and gives it to the parent. There is also a punitive system of having to use vacation if you are sick for less than a week, and also potential job loss for calling in too many times in a year.

For the patients it has got to be worse because they will die if they don't get their treatments, but need to go to a hospital with lots of potentially infected people to get them. They have for the most part been surprisingly blase about the whole thing.

We have only had a couple confirmed cases so far and no known community spread, so time will tell. We have more testing going on than most places too.

This situation has existed for a long time, with people having to decide between getting paid and the health of their coworkers.

It'll (hopefully) become more visible in light of a situation like coronavirus but...

Or, if they do get paid, there is still that looming threat of using sicks days and having a mark on your record, suspension, or termination from employment.  There's also that feeling of guilt that you're leaving more work for others or letting others down, and that they are looking down on you for not going to work.  And then, some people get PTO, so they would prefer to use their PTO for when they're feeling good as vacation days rather than "wasting" them when they're sick.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MayDay on March 15, 2020, 08:12:53 AM
If nothing else, I hope we go back to systems of vacation days and sick days that you lose if you don't actually use.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 15, 2020, 08:15:21 AM
Don't ask Trump for a solution.   We know how he likes to treat children. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
If nothing else, I hope we go back to systems of vacation days and sick days that you lose if you don't actually use.

Where I work, we lose vacation days if we don't use them, but our sick days are cumulative, year after year, and we actually get a bonus if we choose to exchange back sick days for dollars.  And despite being able to rack up 100's of hours of sick time, we can't use more than 3 days in a 6 month period, or there will be a verbal reprimand, then a written one if it happens again, and it can lead to termination.  But, they say, "don't come to work if you're sick."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 15, 2020, 08:28:43 AM
If nothing else, I hope we go back to systems of vacation days and sick days that you lose if you don't actually use.


This is how it works in Australia. At my last employer I used something like 95 sick days across 8 years of service, ha ha. Including one stretch of 42 days in a row whilst recovering from fairly routine surgery.

After I became self-employed I don't think I've ever taken a single sick day. Amazing how that works...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 15, 2020, 08:50:22 AM
There is also the dilemma in healthcare that leaving an understaffed unit can potentially cause unsafe patient care. This is combined with conflicting information about signs and symptoms of the virus. Currently we are only isolating patients if they are febrile, and giving staff vague instructions to stay home if they are sick.

We normally have a kiosk with masks and hand sanitizer, with a sign telling patients and visitors to put on a mask if they have a cough or cold. Lately the masks have been disappearing so there is now a sign directing them to ask for a mask at the desk, thus getting within 6 feet of the desk staff. The hospital and local nursing homes are limiting visitors now at least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 15, 2020, 09:30:30 AM
There is also the dilemma in healthcare that leaving an understaffed unit can potentially cause unsafe patient care. This is combined with conflicting information about signs and symptoms of the virus. Currently we are only isolating patients if they are febrile, and giving staff vague instructions to stay home if they are sick.

We normally have a kiosk with masks and hand sanitizer, with a sign telling patients and visitors to put on a mask if they have a cough or cold. Lately the masks have been disappearing so there is now a sign directing them to ask for a mask at the desk, thus getting within 6 feet of the desk staff. The hospital and local nursing homes are limiting visitors now at least.

As far as I know, all nursing homes in our area are blocking non-essential visitors. I think it's the only responsible thing to do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 15, 2020, 09:40:32 AM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 15, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.

Reports are coming out that the Trump administration policy has been to avoid doing things that would raise the confirmed count.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 15, 2020, 10:03:13 AM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.

JFC. Well, I guess that's one way to keep Wayne County's official case number lower.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 10:24:42 AM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.

Reports are coming out that the Trump administration policy has been to avoid doing things that would raise the confirmed count.

Well, I have no doubt on that.  I remember he didn't want the cruise ship (with COVID-19 passengers/crew) to dock in the U.S. because he didn't want it to "hurt our numbers" because "it wasn't our fault".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Steeze on March 15, 2020, 11:21:30 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
If an employee has no day care and can't take their child to work then the only option for the employee is to stay home and look after their child, right?  Whether it's been agreed as leave or not, right?   So in those circumstances either the employer provides the child care or the employer doesn't have an employee.  Given that the employer is a hospital and will need their staff to keep coming in they should have made plans for this emergency.  If they haven't then tough luck - there is no requirement for other family members to put themselves at risk because the hospital hasn't done a good job of emergency planning.

You're not in the USA, right? Employers here generally do not give a shit about their employees' childcare situations. Hence why so many people are panicking as schools shut down for weeks.
No, I'm not in the USA.  But if employers want employees to turn up to work in an emergency they either make it possible for them to turn up or they expect them not to turn up.  I don't see any other outcome, and certainly employees have to do what is best for them and their families not what is best for their employer.

LOL - I actually laughed out loud when I read this. "employer's job to provide childcare" hahaha, must be from Europe. This is the USA bud. Our entire system is set up to be as profitable as possible. The only responsibility is to maintain minimum safety standards and provide minimum levels of health insurance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 15, 2020, 11:36:58 AM
All good advice! I’m packing now and planning on leaving tomorrow. My plan is to also pack some food to eat on the way and only stop for gas.
Only go if you are not in a risk group.

If your daughter's employer requires her to be present when she has no day care then it is her daughter's employer's job to provide care for her child.

Really? That seems pretty doubtful. That wouldn't be the case in NZ, and we have way more user friendly employee protections than you guys do.

And to answer the question, go before they shut down the options to move around freely. Better that you're stuck with your daughter than stuck apart.
If an employee has no day care and can't take their child to work then the only option for the employee is to stay home and look after their child, right?  Whether it's been agreed as leave or not, right?   So in those circumstances either the employer provides the child care or the employer doesn't have an employee.  Given that the employer is a hospital and will need their staff to keep coming in they should have made plans for this emergency.  If they haven't then tough luck - there is no requirement for other family members to put themselves at risk because the hospital hasn't done a good job of emergency planning.

You're not in the USA, right? Employers here generally do not give a shit about their employees' childcare situations. Hence why so many people are panicking as schools shut down for weeks.
No, I'm not in the USA.  But if employers want employees to turn up to work in an emergency they either make it possible for them to turn up or they expect them not to turn up.  I don't see any other outcome, and certainly employees have to do what is best for them and their families not what is best for their employer.

LOL - I actually laughed out loud when I read this. "employer's job to provide childcare" hahaha, must be from Europe. This is the USA bud. Our entire system is set up to be as profitable as possible. The only responsibility is to maintain minimum safety standards and provide minimum levels of health insurance.
Yep. Especially if you work in a “right-to-work” state.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on March 15, 2020, 11:48:19 AM
Even in Canada, the employer has no responsibility to ensure you have child care either.  Where I used to work, we took turns being on call nights and week-ends, and were told straight up to make arrangements for kids in case of call-out.  Refusing to go out just wouldn't be tolerated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 15, 2020, 12:05:01 PM
Our school district just announced that they are going to close later this week but will provide limited child care for children of healthcare and emergency workers. I'm not sure what daycare centers will do yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 15, 2020, 12:09:56 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 12:24:24 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
And the employer doesn't have anyone doing the work.  No problem then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 15, 2020, 12:30:41 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
And the employer doesn't have anyone doing the work.  No problem then.
You realize:
0) not all employees are critical
1) not all employees have children
2) not all employees who have children have young children who need watching
3) not all employees who have young children who need watching have no relatives, spouses, neighbors, or friends who can help in a bind

A well-run business should do fine without this subsection of the workforce for a while.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
And the employer doesn't have anyone doing the work.  No problem then.
You realize:
0) not all employees are critical
1) not all employees have children
2) not all employees who have children have young children who need watching
3) not all employees who have young children who need watching have no relatives, spouses, neighbors, or friends who can help in a bind

A well-run business should do fine without this subsection of the workforce for a while.

4) most employees aren't mustachian, so they won't be saying FU and will figure something out.  Employers consider that an employee problem just as with other family issues.  The employer and employees are not a family.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 15, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
And the employer doesn't have anyone doing the work.  No problem then.
You realize:
0) not all employees are critical
1) not all employees have children
2) not all employees who have children have young children who need watching
3) not all employees who have young children who need watching have no relatives, spouses, neighbors, or friends who can help in a bind

A well-run business should do fine without this subsection of the workforce for a while.

Think of a company town where both spouses and also many of their neighbors and relatives all work at the same place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 15, 2020, 12:48:50 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.
And the employer doesn't have anyone doing the work.  No problem then.
You realize:
0) not all employees are critical
1) not all employees have children
2) not all employees who have children have young children who need watching
3) not all employees who have young children who need watching have no relatives, spouses, neighbors, or friends who can help in a bind

A well-run business should do fine without this subsection of the workforce for a while.
Agreed, if the employer doesn't need the employee then there's not a problem: the employee can go on (paid or unpaid) leave and look after their kids.  It's if the employee is a critical employee for the employer that it's the employer's problem.  And it's if the employer is saying the employee has to come in whatever that I've been assuming it's because they are business critical.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 15, 2020, 01:00:48 PM
Right, but that's the thing. Finding childcare in a emergency is a bit of spectrum. On one extreme you have "well the school is closed, not happening, sorry boss lol". On the other extreme you have calling every person in your contact list, including people you haven't spoken to in years, and begging for them to watch your kids.

No reasonable employer is going to say "leave your kids to fend for themselves and come make widgets come hell or high water". What they're really saying is "please make a real sustained effort to find a solution before you decide it can't be done".

But of course there will be a small number of unreasonable/vindictive employers. Screw them.

Finding emergency childcare is a shitty situation everywhere, not just the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 15, 2020, 01:43:53 PM
Those European borders that cannot be closed? Yeah, they're closing, partially:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51897069
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 15, 2020, 01:52:34 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?

In the US, the employers generally don't give a rat's ass about your personal problems.   And having a child to take care of -- especially if it's a woman who has to do the caring -- is way down near the bottom of the might give-a-shit list.

The employee is just supposed to show up.  If they go to jail for child endangerment, then they'll be fired and replaced.  If the kid dies and they mope around, they'll be fired for being a bad performer and be replaced.   

That's just how it is.

There are occasional managers who (a) remember to be human beings and (b) are allowed (or can get away with) doing the decent thing.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 15, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?

In the US, the employers generally don't give a rat's ass about your personal problems.   And having a child to take care of -- especially if it's a woman who has to do the caring -- is way down near the bottom of the might give-a-shit list.

The employee is just supposed to show up.  If they go to jail for child endangerment, then they'll be fired and replaced.  If the kid dies and they mope around, they'll be fired for being a bad performer and be replaced.   

That's just how it is.

There are occasional managers who (a) remember to be human beings and (b) are allowed (or can get away with) doing the decent thing.


That's why Biden's ahead.  Americans in general don't have enough sense as a group to care about the group.  Everybody thinks that they can "win" the rat race.  They aren't smart enough to realize that the race has been run, and they lost at birth. 



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: elaine amj on March 15, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.
Wow. Just wow.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 15, 2020, 05:08:50 PM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.
Wow. Just wow.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk


With no testing, you have fewer cases. However, even if you end up with the same number of deaths it will make the death rate significantly higher.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 05:42:22 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?
The employee makes a choice, and lives with the consequences. You know, pretty standard adulting stuff.

Haha that made me laugh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 05:44:40 PM
Apparently Trump has offered money for exclusive access to a vaccine. Only for America. What a man!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/15/trump-offers-large-sums-for-exclusive-access-to-coronavirus-vaccine
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: scottish on March 15, 2020, 05:52:54 PM
Right.  So if an employee leaves their kids home alone that's a criminal offence?  Or at least a potential intervention by social services?  If the employer wants the employee to come in to work and the employee has no available childcare, what happens?  Let's suppose the employee is a good little mustachian and has FU money.  Either the employer solves the child care problem or they are short a vital employee, right?

In the US, the employers generally don't give a rat's ass about your personal problems.   And having a child to take care of -- especially if it's a woman who has to do the caring -- is way down near the bottom of the might give-a-shit list.

The employee is just supposed to show up.  If they go to jail for child endangerment, then they'll be fired and replaced.  If the kid dies and they mope around, they'll be fired for being a bad performer and be replaced.   

That's just how it is.

There are occasional managers who (a) remember to be human beings and (b) are allowed (or can get away with) doing the decent thing.

No wonder so many mustachians are from the US.    Wow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 05:57:42 PM
That reads like fake news.

The Guardian is a reliable national newspaper of long standing. If it's fake news, so is the NY Times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 15, 2020, 06:01:47 PM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.
Wow. Just wow.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk


With no testing, you have fewer cases. However, even if you end up with the same number of deaths it will make the death rate significantly higher.

Nah, there are ways to fix that problem too.  For a long while there has been a lot of pressure on Japanese cops to minimize homicide numbers and make the country look very safe.  So you would get a lot of people who were say, stabbed to death and bled out filed as 'natural deaths'.  Because, if someone stabs you and you lose a lot of blood . . . it's natural that you die.

By the same token, just because someone dies of coronavirus it's impossible to say what really happened if you don't test the body.  And why would you waste a test on a body if they're already dead?  Trump ensured a shortage of tests.  Seems like a waste to test the dead.

:P
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 06:05:04 PM
They have both been fooled before.  Seems really far out to be true, I guess we will see.

Seems completely in keeping with the character of that fine gentleman you call a president to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 15, 2020, 06:32:46 PM
The thing that seems fake about it is the "exclusive" part.  It could be that money was offered internationally to fast track this vaccine but it seems to fall apart when it becomes "only if it is for the US."  That feels made up and highly provable as false.  Time will tell.   

It's precisely the kind of dickish thing Trump would think of.   He would crow to his supporters about how he's the only one with a cure and he would make other countries do what we want to get it.   And if possible, he would be getting a slice of the profits.  How does that meme go?   "Convince me I'm wrong!"
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 15, 2020, 07:17:47 PM
The thing that seems fake about it is the "exclusive" part.  It could be that money was offered internationally to fast track this vaccine but it seems to fall apart when it becomes "only if it is for the US."  That feels made up and highly provable as false.  Time will tell.     
I expect it’s true. This type of deal is relatively common - though I haven’t heard of it before with regard to vaccines. There are plenty of things that are exclusively available in the US - for instance, some equipment I use that’s manufactured in Australia for a Swiss company is only available in in US for the first six months of availability of a new version. We cannot buy it until it’s been available for at least that long. I expect that your president is familiar with such contracts, and I am not at all surprised that he’s done this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 15, 2020, 07:43:29 PM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.
Wow. Just wow.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk


With no testing, you have fewer cases. However, even if you end up with the same number of deaths it will make the death rate significantly higher.

I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic. 


Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 08:38:14 PM
I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic.

The American death rate would be based on closed cases.  There's close to 70 deaths and 70 recovered, but there are thousands of active cases and many who still need tested.  So, 50% is a snapshot in time, but that number will come down significantly with more recoveries, hopefully resulting in less than 1% fatality rate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 15, 2020, 08:56:42 PM
I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic.

The American death rate would be based on closed cases.  There's close to 70 deaths and 70 recovered, but there are thousands of active cases and many who still need tested.  So, 50% is a snapshot in time, but that number will come down significantly with more recoveries, hopefully resulting in less than 1% fatality rate.

Well - yes. The American death rate is based on closed cases, as is the death rates I mentioned for all the other countries. My point is that Trump would have to concede that either 1) Americans are dying at a staggering rate or 2) we’ve only tested a minuscule number of people who have been infected.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 15, 2020, 09:03:09 PM
I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic.

The American death rate would be based on closed cases.  There's close to 70 deaths and 70 recovered, but there are thousands of active cases and many who still need tested.  So, 50% is a snapshot in time, but that number will come down significantly with more recoveries, hopefully resulting in less than 1% fatality rate.

Well - yes. The American death rate is based on closed cases, as is the death rates I mentioned for all the other countries. My point is that Trump would have to concede that either 1) Americans are dying at a staggering rate or 2) we’ve only tested a minuscule number of people who have been infected.

It's pretty high in some other countries when only including closed cases.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/coronavirus/msg2581435/#msg2581435
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 15, 2020, 09:09:55 PM
Are all US deaths being tested for covid-19? Or will they just be lumped into the "Flu" or "Respiratory Illness" categories to keep the numbers down for Trump? I feel like such a conspiracy theorist these days...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 15, 2020, 09:24:12 PM
The thing that seems fake about it is the "exclusive" part.  It could be that money was offered internationally to fast track this vaccine but it seems to fall apart when it becomes "only if it is for the US."  That feels made up and highly provable as false.  Time will tell.   

You could be right. I don't know. But to me it sits right up in Trump's Make America Great Again and Build A Wall ethos. If the USA had a vaccine, there's no way in the world it would be shared for free.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Fish Sweet on March 15, 2020, 10:09:24 PM
That reads like fake news.

US officials are claiming that it is, but the German Health Ministry has confirmed the quotes in the original publication. 

Quote
A German Health Ministry spokeswoman, confirming a quote in the newspaper, said: “The German government is very interested in ensuring that vaccines and active substances against the new coronavirus are also developed in Germany and Europe.”

“In this regard, the government is in intensive exchange with the company CureVac,” she added.

Welt am Sonntag quoted an unidentified German government source as saying Trump was trying to secure the scientists’ work exclusively, and would do anything to get a vaccine for the United States, “but only for the United States.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-usa/germany-tries-to-stop-us-from-luring-away-firm-seeking-coronavirus-vaccine-idUSKBN2120IV
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Roland of Gilead on March 15, 2020, 10:20:36 PM
Hey, we lured away the scientists in WWII from Germany so we could get the bomb before them and that turned out ok.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Fish Sweet on March 15, 2020, 10:25:11 PM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.  Friend got screamed at (literally) today for a grocery trip with her spouse to Chinatown, along the gist of "THE CHINESE THERE JUST ESCAPED CHINA BEFORE THEY CLOSED THE BORDERS, THEY BROUGHT IT HERE" and "THEY'RE DEFINITELY GONNA INFECT YOU WITH CORONAVIRUS."  A bonus:  "I'm not racist, you shouldn't be hanging around any Italians either."

Double bonus: the friend in question has a Chinese spouse, Chinese in-laws, and extended family all living in China.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: familyandfarming on March 16, 2020, 05:53:53 AM
I’m the one who is going 2 states away to babysit for my daughter who works at a hospital. I decided to leave Tuesday morning as my husband is planning on also coming as the weather is not good enough to farm and is planning staying for a week to build a swing set for her 4 year old. He’s planning to return to the farm next week when the weather clears.

This trip requires one stop for gas for a complete refill of the tank. Does anyone foresee closings of gas stations? That would mean he would be stranded from the farm. If so, I will drive myself and leave him on the farm. (We have large gas tanks on the farm filled with diesel to put in the crop)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 16, 2020, 06:09:11 AM
Gas stations being empty is very unlikely. But I would recommend starting to look for gas well before you are empty in case a particular town has supply issues. Our approach will be to keep at least a half tank in both vehicles at all times. This should help us avoid lines at the gas booth if folks start to hoard or if the government institutes any sort of gas rationing (which is unlikely).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on March 16, 2020, 06:09:31 AM
They have both been fooled before.  Seems really far out to be true, I guess we will see.

Seems completely in keeping with the character of that fine gentleman you call a president to me.

Right? I mean... come on. It would be a lot more surprising to see him do something non-selfish and self-serving. How this reads as fake news is beyond me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 16, 2020, 06:31:03 AM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.

Yup, I'm glad that all my Chinese family is currently in Singapore where it is still safe to be Chinese. Also, coincidentally, they have the Covid-19 situation under control, at least for now.

With that said, there was plenty of food at my local Asian market over the weekend. If your local big box store is stripped please give your local Asian market a try.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 16, 2020, 06:46:26 AM
Definitely will plan a stop at the Asian grocery on Wednesday. Racism isn’t just awful, it’s incredibly stupid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mwulff on March 16, 2020, 07:01:42 AM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.

Yup, I'm glad that all my Chinese family is currently in Singapore where it is still safe to be Chinese. Also, coincidentally, they have the Covid-19 situation under control, at least for now.

With that said, there was plenty of food at my local Asian market over the weekend. If your local big box store is stripped please give your local Asian market a try.

I am actually shocked that anybody would use this as an excuse to vent racism. In my opinion no single chinese person (even patient zero) has any responsibility for this mess that we are in right now.

You could argue that chinese food-market practices are what caused this mess (according to latest scientific consensus) and that if China as a country wishes to maintain good relations with the rest of the world some changes might be nessecary.

But that is a complicated topic that will likely not be resolved over the next few weeks. But I sure hope we see cultural and legal changes that will make it far less likely that such a situation occurs again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 16, 2020, 07:09:06 AM
Here's a fun article about stupidity and the worst of humanity: https://news.yahoo.com/brothers-hoarded-17-700-bottles-232925031.html

A couple guys bought up all of the hand sanitizer in the area, leaving shelves empty for others. They attempted to re-sell at a massive markup, but Amazon & eBay shut down their stores. The TN Attorney General basically forced them to donate it all away. They've also received a lot of hate mail and death threats since the story ran in the New York Times.

With the virus going around and the actions by some people that have added to the chaos, I'm reminded of a Mark Twain quote: "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 16, 2020, 08:38:24 AM
I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic.

The American death rate would be based on closed cases.  There's close to 70 deaths and 70 recovered, but there are thousands of active cases and many who still need tested.  So, 50% is a snapshot in time, but that number will come down significantly with more recoveries, hopefully resulting in less than 1% fatality rate.

Well - yes. The American death rate is based on closed cases, as is the death rates I mentioned for all the other countries. My point is that Trump would have to concede that either 1) Americans are dying at a staggering rate or 2) we’ve only tested a minuscule number of people who have been infected.

It's pretty high in some other countries when only including closed cases.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/coronavirus/msg2581435/#msg2581435

Good point. When you look at Italy’s death rate of 44% versus S. Korea’s of 6%. Part of that is the difference between the two countries in testing numbers. Part of that is that people are dying at a staggering rate in Italy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 16, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
Locally, last Friday we all got word that schools would be closing for 3 weeks.  Now, if you've been reading the news, you'd know that:
1. It's an issue in CA
2. We didn't have any local cases, but hadn't tested anyone
3. We are supposed to use social distancing.  It's pretty obvious what that is - you can find that online.

So, first up, one of my local friends goes on a RANT about how negative everyone is being about schools being off.  Be POSITIVE!  Come up with SOLUTIONS!  It's a CHALLENGE.  Talk about privilege and tone deaf.  Lady:
- Not everyone can feed their kids
- People in hospitality have ALREADY lost their jobs and home
- Not everyone has PTO, or can work from home
- Not everyone has kids old enough to stay home alone (she does)
Uggghhhh

If that's not the worst, this weekend she shows a fucking picture of her young KINDERGARTNER with 6-7 other kids at a birthday party.  WTAF do you NOT understand about social distancing?  Well, I guess it's easy to be positive if  you aren't going to change your life AT ALL.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 16, 2020, 10:05:11 AM
My company is being kinda dumb, but ok.

I had a baby shower and 2-year-old's birthday party coming up in the next couple weeks. Both are now cancelled. The birthday party (for a 2 year old! who has no concept of time!) I'm pretty sure was only cancelled because IL closed all the restaurants and bars. No consideration of potentially spreading disease from what I can tell. Though the message was from the husband. The wife is not dumb, is a statistical expert (phD, professor) and I'm sure is well aware of the possibilities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 16, 2020, 10:06:08 AM
Here's a fun article about stupidity and the worst of humanity: https://news.yahoo.com/brothers-hoarded-17-700-bottles-232925031.html

A couple guys bought up all of the hand sanitizer in the area, leaving shelves empty for others. They attempted to re-sell at a massive markup, but Amazon & eBay shut down their stores. The TN Attorney General basically forced them to donate it all away. They've also received a lot of hate mail and death threats since the story ran in the New York Times.

With the virus going around and the actions by some people that have added to the chaos, I'm reminded of a Mark Twain quote: "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right."

I had read that article when it came out.   Selfish bastards.  I'm glad they lost their shirt on this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 16, 2020, 10:12:51 AM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.

Yup, I'm glad that all my Chinese family is currently in Singapore where it is still safe to be Chinese. Also, coincidentally, they have the Covid-19 situation under control, at least for now.

With that said, there was plenty of food at my local Asian market over the weekend. If your local big box store is stripped please give your local Asian market a try.

I am actually shocked that anybody would use this as an excuse to vent racism. In my opinion no single chinese person (even patient zero) has any responsibility for this mess that we are in right now.

If you are an American, you have led a wonderfully sheltered life.   Please trust us on that.

This kind of scum exists in non-trivial numbers and will come out at the slightest "excuse" for it.   Or if they think you are "on their side".

I was wearing a "Fight Truth Decay" tshirt to the grocery the other day.  Some dude thought the shirt meant I'm against gays so he came over to discuss that with his new found friend.   I told him he was a God-damned bigot and to go fuck himself, and walked off.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: intellectsucks on March 16, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases..., 274,304 hospitalizations..., and 12,469 deaths in the United States due to the (H1N1) virus."  source:  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html

These numbers are for the United States only, not worldwide.  Recall this was immediately after the 2008 stock collapse which was the result of years of grift in the mortgage industry and the shaking of banking in this country.  You can just imagine what would have happened if we had voluntarily tanked our economy even further back then by shutting down business and sports. 

So why don't we all recall the horrible scourge of swine flu?  60 million sick and 275K hospitalized, holy shit! 

We need to ask ourselves who is benefitting from this current hysteria and then downshift our emotions accordingly.  Exercise healthy cynicism about the 24 hour news cycle and clicks and eyeballs and the profit of an election year panic.  Then wash your hands and maybe just e-mail grandma this month rather than visit in person.     

With the extreme measures taken and increased hygiene awareness the disease spread will slow and can end faster.  This is great news.  Fortunately the economy was robust enough this time to absorb this temporary event and there is no reason to think people will not be back working and patronizing businesses again within just a few weeks.  Excellent.  Who profits if they do not?  Really, who is heavily invested in keeping the panic hot?  Once you answer honestly, downshift and refuse to participate in the frenzy.     

Pass it on.           

I wish more people were as level headed as you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 16, 2020, 11:16:51 AM
I see a lot of selfish thinking underneath that post. Read up on what has been happening in Italy. That could be the U.S. in about 2 weeks. Sorry grandma - we have to let someone younger have the ventilator. Implying there is a conspiracy at work and that this is no big deal is not helpful for anyone.

Read something that doesn't play into Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump's narrative:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 16, 2020, 11:18:08 AM
So why don't we all recall the horrible scourge of swine flu?  60 million sick and 275K hospitalized, holy shit! 
Perhaps a shorter answer - because we were lucky. And our government did more in the early days of that than they did this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 16, 2020, 11:19:16 AM
COVID-19 experts think 40-70% of people will get it (that's 132-231 million people in the US). And that 20% of those people will need medical care (26-46 million people in the US). One quarter of those people will need critical care (7.5-11.5 million in the US)...and we have fewer than 1 million ICU beds and shortages of medical professionals and resources. With a 1% fatality rate we lose 1-2 million people. If we overload the health care system we lose a lot more people.

This thing spreads fast (and can be transmitted when you are asymptomatic). Left unchecked it will overwhelm our health care system quickly as it has in Italy and China, etc.

Currently, social distancing and quarantines are our only tools to slow this thing down. The math and modeling tells us this is much worse than H1N1...by an order of magnitude.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 16, 2020, 11:29:49 AM
"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases..., 274,304 hospitalizations..., and 12,469 deaths in the United States due to the (H1N1) virus."  source:  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html

These numbers are for the United States only, not worldwide.  Recall this was immediately after the 2008 stock collapse which was the result of years of grift in the mortgage industry and the shaking of banking in this country.  You can just imagine what would have happened if we had voluntarily tanked our economy even further back then by shutting down business and sports. 

So why don't we all recall the horrible scourge of swine flu?  60 million sick and 275K hospitalized, holy shit! 
           

Who doesn't recall H1N1?? Why wouldn't we take measures to insure that this doesn't become as bad?? Or worse, given that COVID 19 seems to have a higher hospitalization and death rates?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 16, 2020, 11:43:15 AM
Quote
With the extreme measures taken and increased hygiene awareness the disease spread will slow and can end faster.  This is great news.  Fortunately the economy was robust enough this time to absorb this temporary event and there is no reason to think people will not be back working and patronizing businesses again within just a few weeks.  Excellent.  Who profits if they do not?  Really, who is heavily invested in keeping the panic hot?  Once you answer honestly, downshift and refuse to participate in the frenzy.   

This is meaningless if people don't DO it.  Birthday parties, teenage dances and fun times, travel for fun because "hey, I'm only 30!"  That's not gonna help reduce the spread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 16, 2020, 12:34:32 PM
I see a lot of selfish thinking underneath that post. Read up on what has been happening in Italy. That could be the U.S. in about 2 weeks. Sorry grandma - we have to let someone younger have the ventilator. Implying there is a conspiracy at work and that this is no big deal is not helpful for anyone.

Read something that doesn't play into Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump's narrative:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/)

Even our brilliant MMM Pete didn't know the flu killed that many as noted in his March 3rd post.  Lots and lots and lots of talking heads have said they had no idea there are so many annual flu deaths.  It looks bad when Trump says it though because he is supposed to be above that to build public confidence and when the media is looking to criticize his ice cream scoop count they have zero problem making that some gross misstep of doom.  They now demand a perfection not similarly expected of an Obama administration back then because they can get all kinds of mileage out of it today.   

I wonder what happened in Italy in 2009-10, that would be an interesting comparison and I wonder if it is knowable.  The main issue seems to be that everyone was sick at one time vs. the count total and our aggressive actions will certainly stop that.  275K hospitalized all at once would be tough, but over a year and across our huge geography made it do-able.  The entire country of Italy could fit in Texas' backpack.       

I never said it was a conspiracy, there is not some cabal meeting in the shadows deciding how to make us puppets.  I am saying there is a social change that has happened and it is not good.  We need to be aware of this and go the other way.   

"In Italy, the H1N1 pandemic was responsible for 260 reported deaths caused by complications stemming from pandemic influenza and 5.600.000 cases of influenza-like illness between week 31 of 2009 and week 17 of 2010."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4568430/

Current numbers coming out of Italy for CV (per Al-Jazeera): 27,980 infections and 2,158 deaths

Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/toll-rises-coronavirus-tightens-global-grip-live-updates-200315231500487.html

It would appear that H1N1 was not nearly as deadly in Italy, based on my (very) limited research.

It certainly does feel like this has been blown way out of proportion. In my county, schools are closed until at least April, despite the fact that we don't yet have any confirmed cases. However, since I can't do anything about that, I'll just take part in "social distancing" and enjoy the cheaper stocks, since my job is allowing work from home and is in an industry that won't be affected by a recession.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 16, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
Quote
With the extreme measures taken and increased hygiene awareness the disease spread will slow and can end faster.  This is great news.  Fortunately the economy was robust enough this time to absorb this temporary event and there is no reason to think people will not be back working and patronizing businesses again within just a few weeks.  Excellent.  Who profits if they do not?  Really, who is heavily invested in keeping the panic hot?  Once you answer honestly, downshift and refuse to participate in the frenzy.   

This is meaningless if people don't DO it.  Birthday parties, teenage dances and fun times, travel for fun because "hey, I'm only 30!"  That's not gonna help reduce the spread.

Lots of baby showers going on right now.  People are PISSED that the venues are canceling on them, and they are finding alternate venues and insisting the shower still go on.  I mean they made invitations AND blew up balloons, you expect them just to cancel the shower? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 16, 2020, 12:49:17 PM
Which is crazy since pregnant women are high risk if they get this virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 16, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
I see a lot of selfish thinking underneath that post. Read up on what has been happening in Italy. That could be the U.S. in about 2 weeks. Sorry grandma - we have to let someone younger have the ventilator. Implying there is a conspiracy at work and that this is no big deal is not helpful for anyone.

Read something that doesn't play into Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump's narrative:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/ (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/)

Even our brilliant MMM Pete didn't know the flu killed that many as noted in his March 3rd post.  Lots and lots and lots of talking heads have said they had no idea there are so many annual flu deaths.  It looks bad when Trump says it though because he is supposed to be above that to build public confidence and when the media is looking to criticize his ice cream scoop count they have zero problem making that some gross misstep of doom.  They now demand a perfection not similarly expected of an Obama administration back then because they can get all kinds of mileage out of it today.   

I wonder what happened in Italy in 2009-10, that would be an interesting comparison and I wonder if it is knowable.  The main issue seems to be that everyone was sick at one time vs. the count total and our aggressive actions will certainly stop that.  275K hospitalized all at once would be tough, but over a year and across our huge geography made it do-able.  The entire country of Italy could fit in Texas' backpack.       

I never said it was a conspiracy, there is not some cabal meeting in the shadows deciding how to make us puppets.  I am saying there is a social change that has happened and it is not good.  We need to be aware of this and go the other way.   

"In Italy, the H1N1 pandemic was responsible for 260 reported deaths caused by complications stemming from pandemic influenza and 5.600.000 cases of influenza-like illness between week 31 of 2009 and week 17 of 2010."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4568430/

Current numbers coming out of Italy for CV (per Al-Jazeera): 27,980 infections and 2,158 deaths

Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/toll-rises-coronavirus-tightens-global-grip-live-updates-200315231500487.html

It would appear that H1N1 was not nearly as deadly in Italy, based on my (very) limited research.

It certainly does feel like this has been blown way out of proportion. In my county, schools are closed until at least April, despite the fact that we don't yet have any confirmed cases. However, since I can't do anything about that, I'll just take part in "social distancing" and enjoy the cheaper stocks, since my job is allowing work from home and is in an industry that won't be affected by a recession.

The idea is that you don't get any confirmed cases. I think the USA is in for a very rough ride. You may find your attitude changes quite a lot, quite rapidly, quite soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 16, 2020, 12:50:13 PM
It certainly does feel like this has been blown way out of proportion. In my county, schools are closed until at least April, despite the fact that we don't yet have any confirmed cases. However, since I can't do anything about that, I'll just take part in "social distancing" and enjoy the cheaper stocks, since my job is allowing work from home and is in an industry that won't be affected by a recession.
Have they actually tested anyone in your county yet? I know that in my county, they hadn't until very recently, maybe still haven't. And my county is home to the capital of the 3rd most populous state in the country.

Incidentally, coupled with the rapid escalation to "we don't have enough ventilators" in Italy, this realization at how poor the information in the US has been got out, and the collective realization was "wow - this is going to be much worse than we've been told".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 16, 2020, 12:51:07 PM
Which is crazy since pregnant women are high risk if they get this virus.

Well this particular one is anti-vax anyway, so she clearly doesn't understand risk/reward that well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dogboyslim on March 16, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
.... However, since I can't do anything about that, I'll just take part in "social distancing" and enjoy the cheaper stocks, since my job is allowing work from home and is in an industry that won't be affected by a recession.

Yep.  Same boat here.  Should be interesting next week.  My wife and I both working from home plus 3 kids in "virtual" school.  I hope people are still working at my ISP!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Fish Sweet on March 16, 2020, 02:01:38 PM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.

Yup, I'm glad that all my Chinese family is currently in Singapore where it is still safe to be Chinese. Also, coincidentally, they have the Covid-19 situation under control, at least for now.

With that said, there was plenty of food at my local Asian market over the weekend. If your local big box store is stripped please give your local Asian market a try.

I am actually shocked that anybody would use this as an excuse to vent racism. In my opinion no single chinese person (even patient zero) has any responsibility for this mess that we are in right now.

You could argue that chinese food-market practices are what caused this mess (according to latest scientific consensus) and that if China as a country wishes to maintain good relations with the rest of the world some changes might be nessecary.

But that is a complicated topic that will likely not be resolved over the next few weeks. But I sure hope we see cultural and legal changes that will make it far less likely that such a situation occurs again.
Unfortunately, good sense and human sympathy is just truly lacking in a huge part of the population.

Another haha-not-funny coronavirus racism incident:  A friend of mine works at an organization that processes applications from many folks in other countries as well as from foreign nationals residing in the United States.  These are important, time sensitive documents that people take great pains to prepare, as incorrect preparation and/or lack of completion can have bad consequences (comparable to say, people applying for visas to work in the US or to extend their current working visas.)

One of their coworkers has taken it upon himself to "quarantine" all applications coming from China, or from anyone who has a sufficiently "Chinese" sounding name, and place them in a separate location for a week or more.  He also will only touch these documents (that have been delayed for a week) with gloves, and a great deal of anxious mewling about how he's going to get Covid-19 from contact with these Chinese papers.

On the plus(???) side, he's horrifically inept and slow at the job, so his much more competent coworkers are sometimes able to "rescue" the applications assigned to him from "quarantine" and get to them before him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hadilly on March 16, 2020, 02:15:35 PM
Holy fuck. It just got real in the SF Bay area: https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/Bay-Area-must-shelter-in-place-Only-15135014.php
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 16, 2020, 02:31:30 PM
PHoly fuck. It just got real in the SF Bay area: https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/Bay-Area-must-shelter-in-place-Only-15135014.php

Link is dead yo
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hadilly on March 16, 2020, 02:46:35 PM
Huh. Not up to figuring it out, but if you go to the SF Chronicle, the article is there. Basically a six county lockdown starting at midnight tonight.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on March 16, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Link is dead yo

Of course, because more than 10 people clicked it.

But seriously, it works for me on Chrome desktop PC. TL;DR: "Everybody stay at home until April 7."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 16, 2020, 02:56:47 PM
Huh. Not up to figuring it out, but if you go to the SF Chronicle, the article is there. Basically a six county lockdown starting at midnight tonight.

You literally used the language the article specifically says is not actually happening:

Quote
The order falls just short of a full lockdown, which would forbid people from leaving their homes without explicit permission
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 16, 2020, 02:57:56 PM
@Fish Sweet  - they should report that guy and get him fired if at all possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hadilly on March 16, 2020, 03:01:54 PM
Fair point, ender. It is going to certainly feel very very different from life as we know it here though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 16, 2020, 03:04:29 PM
Huh. Not up to figuring it out, but if you go to the SF Chronicle, the article is there. Basically a six county lockdown starting at midnight tonight.

You literally used the language the article specifically says is not actually happening:

Quote
The order falls just short of a full lockdown, which would forbid people from leaving their homes without explicit permission

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's basically identical (literally identical?) to what they call a lockdown in Italy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on March 16, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
More on the topic of COVID-19 stupidity, it's nice (not) to see all the anti-Asian racists come crawling out of the woodwork at the slightest excuse to show their asses.

Yup, I'm glad that all my Chinese family is currently in Singapore where it is still safe to be Chinese. Also, coincidentally, they have the Covid-19 situation under control, at least for now.

With that said, there was plenty of food at my local Asian market over the weekend. If your local big box store is stripped please give your local Asian market a try.

I am actually shocked that anybody would use this as an excuse to vent racism. In my opinion no single chinese person (even patient zero) has any responsibility for this mess that we are in right now.

You could argue that chinese food-market practices are what caused this mess (according to latest scientific consensus) and that if China as a country wishes to maintain good relations with the rest of the world some changes might be nessecary.

But that is a complicated topic that will likely not be resolved over the next few weeks. But I sure hope we see cultural and legal changes that will make it far less likely that such a situation occurs again.
Unfortunately, good sense and human sympathy is just truly lacking in a huge part of the population.

Another haha-not-funny coronavirus racism incident:  A friend of mine works at an organization that processes applications from many folks in other countries as well as from foreign nationals residing in the United States.  These are important, time sensitive documents that people take great pains to prepare, as incorrect preparation and/or lack of completion can have bad consequences (comparable to say, people applying for visas to work in the US or to extend their current working visas.)

One of their coworkers has taken it upon himself to "quarantine" all applications coming from China, or from anyone who has a sufficiently "Chinese" sounding name, and place them in a separate location for a week or more.  He also will only touch these documents (that have been delayed for a week) with gloves, and a great deal of anxious mewling about how he's going to get Covid-19 from contact with these Chinese papers.

On the plus(???) side, he's horrifically inept and slow at the job, so his much more competent coworkers are sometimes able to "rescue" the applications assigned to him from "quarantine" and get to them before him.

Sigh, except most of the new cases here are coming from countries other than China, and eventually from community spread. So if he wants to be thorough, he should be quarantining all documents for a one to two weeks before touching them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Fish Sweet on March 16, 2020, 03:47:09 PM
@Fish Sweet  - they should report that guy and get him fired if at all possible.

My understanding is that he's been reported and by more than one person.  Whether HR/management will do anything..... shrug_emoji.jpg

Sigh, except most of the new cases here are coming from countries other than China, and eventually from community spread. So if he wants to be thorough, he should be quarantining all documents for a one to two weeks before touching them.

You'd think, but there's not even some semblance of logic behind the racism.  My friend mentioned that someone had pointed out that he wasn't quarantining applications from Italy or "Italian sounding" names, and the gist of his response was that because COVID-19 originated in China blah blah blah some convoluted nonsense screening out the Chinese virus blah blah.  You can't put sense in the senseless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 16, 2020, 06:03:16 PM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Friend of a friend is a presumptive positive (no test), don't know the guy personally. I've been told he was miserable - fever, achy, sore throat - but is starting to feel better. Can't speak to how much of his miserableness was him being a big baby about being sick. Low to mid 30s, no risk factors that I've heard. Basically, he's on the couch doing whatever. Near Indianapolis, IN.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 16, 2020, 06:59:01 PM
How long after the H1N1 outbreak was there a vax available?  I recall my workplace--a university--VERY strongly encouraging all of us to go get our vaccination.  It was all but required. 

When comparing the two diseases, I think the existence and availability of a vaccine against one and not the other (at least not yet, or any time soon) is pretty relevant. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Serendip on March 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Friend of a friend has it after visiting someone in a nearby region--mid 30's, achy/flu-like symptoms. Is currently self-quarantined at home and around 6 days into symptoms.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 16, 2020, 08:44:53 PM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Daughter and granddaughter of a friend of a friend has it.   

There is so very little testing going on that the numbers are probably way low.

In China, they had over 25 times the number of confirmed cases on the way up the curve.   That's because of the lag between getting it and feeling sick enough to get medical attention.   

Our testing is so scarce (piss-poor is perhaps a better phrase to use) that our ratio may well be double that.

Either way, with 4661 confirmed US cases, that puts us at 4661 * 25 or circa 116,500 cases as a bare minimum.   Doubling that every 3 days for the next 15 days (to account for the aforementioned lag time) puts us at around 373,000 people after 5 doublings.   

At that point, if our social distancing is working, the rate of growth in the number of infected would drop.

Except, of course, if we start doing serious, large-scale testing, and find out there are hundreds of thousands more infected.   Right now we have people presenting themselves to doctors, the doctors agree they've got the symptoms, and the tests aren't available!

Meanwhile, a 3rd world African country can test and get people their test results back in 4 hours.   It takes us 4 days.     They've administered more tests than we have, too.

If we end up with mass trench graves like we did with the Spanish Flu and the Yellow Fever epidemics, I'm going to be putting in a Whitehouse.gov petition to have all those mass graves become national monuments, "The Donald J. Trump Healthcare Debacle Mass Gravesite".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on March 16, 2020, 09:16:50 PM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Daughter and granddaughter of a friend of a friend has it.   

There is so very little testing going on that the numbers are probably way low.

In China, they had over 25 times the number of confirmed cases on the way up the curve.   That's because of the lag between getting it and feeling sick enough to get medical attention.   

Our testing is so scarce (piss-poor is perhaps a better phrase to use) that our ratio may well be double that.

Either way, with 4661 confirmed US cases, that puts us at 4661 * 25 or circa 116,500 cases as a bare minimum.   Doubling that every 3 days for the next 15 days (to account for the aforementioned lag time) puts us at around 373,000 people after 5 doublings.   

At that point, if our social distancing is working, the rate of growth in the number of infected would drop.

Except, of course, if we start doing serious, large-scale testing, and find out there are hundreds of thousands more infected.   Right now we have people presenting themselves to doctors, the doctors agree they've got the symptoms, and the tests aren't available!

Meanwhile, a 3rd world African country can test and get people their test results back in 4 hours.   It takes us 4 days.     They've administered more tests than we have, too.

If we end up with mass trench graves like we did with the Spanish Flu and the Yellow Fever epidemics, I'm going to be putting in a Whitehouse.gov petition to have all those mass graves become national monuments, "The Donald J. Trump Healthcare Debacle Mass Gravesite".

Wow....Which country in Africa? source?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 16, 2020, 09:49:21 PM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Daughter and granddaughter of a friend of a friend has it.   

There is so very little testing going on that the numbers are probably way low.

In China, they had over 25 times the number of confirmed cases on the way up the curve.   That's because of the lag between getting it and feeling sick enough to get medical attention.   

Our testing is so scarce (piss-poor is perhaps a better phrase to use) that our ratio may well be double that.

Either way, with 4661 confirmed US cases, that puts us at 4661 * 25 or circa 116,500 cases as a bare minimum.   Doubling that every 3 days for the next 15 days (to account for the aforementioned lag time) puts us at around 373,000 people after 5 doublings.   

At that point, if our social distancing is working, the rate of growth in the number of infected would drop.

Except, of course, if we start doing serious, large-scale testing, and find out there are hundreds of thousands more infected.   Right now we have people presenting themselves to doctors, the doctors agree they've got the symptoms, and the tests aren't available!

Meanwhile, a 3rd world African country can test and get people their test results back in 4 hours.   It takes us 4 days.     They've administered more tests than we have, too.

If we end up with mass trench graves like we did with the Spanish Flu and the Yellow Fever epidemics, I'm going to be putting in a Whitehouse.gov petition to have all those mass graves become national monuments, "The Donald J. Trump Healthcare Debacle Mass Gravesite".

Wow....Which country in Africa? source?
Senegal.   

https://news.yahoo.com/senegal-reportedly-turning-coronavirus-tests-165224221.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=tw

What's more, a lab in Senegal just got a 1 million pound grant to develop and produce a 10 minute test.   

It can take a week for Americans to find out -- if of course we can get tested at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 17, 2020, 05:23:17 AM
Tests are taking about 12 hours to result where I'm at (large Midwest teaching hospital). We have a drive through site now too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Seadog on March 17, 2020, 06:55:05 AM
I think this is the number we should be talking about. Last I looked the death rate in America is 50%.  Outside of the US  I've seen ranges from 1 - 4%.   I would like to see President Trump address that statistic.

The American death rate would be based on closed cases.  There's close to 70 deaths and 70 recovered, but there are thousands of active cases and many who still need tested.  So, 50% is a snapshot in time, but that number will come down significantly with more recoveries, hopefully resulting in less than 1% fatality rate.

Well - yes. The American death rate is based on closed cases, as is the death rates I mentioned for all the other countries. My point is that Trump would have to concede that either 1) Americans are dying at a staggering rate or 2) we’ve only tested a minuscule number of people who have been infected.

It's pretty high in some other countries when only including closed cases.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/coronavirus/msg2581435/#msg2581435

Good point. When you look at Italy’s death rate of 44% versus S. Korea’s of 6%. Part of that is the difference between the two countries in testing numbers. Part of that is that people are dying at a staggering rate in Italy.

I'm taking all those statistics with such are large grain of salt that my french fries are set for life.

Deaths are probably pretty accurate, since it's hard to hide a body, but with extremely limited testing, rationed testing kits, and many people without symptoms, the number of infected people could be an order or two of magnitude higher, and thus the death rates an order or two of magnitude lower.

Sadly the only things that can get counted is that which is known, and that which is known is that with is tested. Two perfect examples. After spending time in OK one summer, work thought it prudent to explain to us Tornado safety. Fair enough. but a curious statistic emerged. Tornado frequency, was almost perfectly correlated with population density. Two counties, 5 km apart, and one had 10x the tornadoes of the other. Why? How did the tornadoes know? Were they making a cruel joke and targeting busy places? They didn't. What it shows was that in order for their to be a tornado, it had to be seen, and less people to see it, many would simply go unnoticed that wouldn't in a more populous place.

Fraccing in oil wells. There was a huge issue about people saying it caused earth quakes, and once they started actually looking with seismic equipment, they found literally hundreds of them. Were there no earth quakes before, or was it just because they weren't looking, that these hundreds of <2.0 earthquakes weren't be felt.

This virus is certainly not a nothing issue, but the numbers are so meaningless at this point that you might as well throw a dart at a board.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 17, 2020, 07:09:35 AM
I don't know that it's meaningless to observe hospitals cannot read everyone.

Regardless of infection rate or mortality rate, that is a fact in many places at this point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bmjohnson35 on March 17, 2020, 08:00:25 AM

I don't think this has been posted yet, but here is an interesting article on the virus that demonstrates that it will be very difficult to track/control the virus.  I think I heard yesterday that the US now has around 2 million tests in inventory.  This is a start, but we really need to ramp this up.  Depending on how this unfolds and long-term implications of this virus, it may become necessary to develop a home test that a layman person can self administer.  This seems like an ideal way to get on top of an outbreak.  Imagine if we could simply all receive the test in the mail, perform the test and take appropriate action.

https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/study-covid-19-spread-china-mild-undocumented-cases-stealth-transmission/
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 17, 2020, 08:07:14 AM
I have a cousin that works in Detroit metro airport and comes into contact with thousands of international visitors. She works as a translator between English and Japanese.  She's got all the symptoms of covid-19 and went to the Dr. They sent her to the drive through testing facility set up to test for coronavirus. They performed a test for the coronavirus and sent her home with instructions to self quarantine.  That was a couple of days ago.  She just got contacted with the results which were "uh, we decided not to test you after all. You're young and will get through this, just continue your quarantine. we have limited tests and need to save them for people that actually need it"

So maybe the official numbers in the USA will stay very low? Can't have any official positive cases if you don't actually test anyone.

Her illness seemed somewhat severe, not enough to require hospitalization, but like a very bad cold.  But it was also pretty short lived as she is already feeling better.  Apparently she has been instructed to return back to work at the airport this week.  I don't know enough about the transmission of this virus to know if this is a good or bad call. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bmjohnson35 on March 17, 2020, 08:20:20 AM

Yup, that's another example of how the virus can easily spread.  Employers are often driven by production and are making decisions without appropriate guidance. Even once a person's symptoms subside and appear to be over the illness, the virus continues to shed, meaning they are still contagious.  It is my understanding that you are likely less contagious, but still contagious for some time.  This time period of shedding varies from person to person.

BJ
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 17, 2020, 08:27:27 AM
What are the odds that a good number of us have already gotten it?   I had a respiratory infection several weeks ago, and so did my wife and son.  Did we all get the coronavirus, or just a common cold?  There was nothing extraordinary about our illness, but we may be in the part of the population that develops relatively mild symptoms to the point we couldn't differentiate it from a cold. 

There is a very real possibility it was just a cold though as my son is a fucking cesspool of infectious disease and we've had a total of close to 20 illnesses in the last 6 months between the 3 of us.  Obviously they couldn't all have been coronavirus.  I also don't think it was 20 unique viruses, as I am counting and illness shared by all 3 of us as 3 separate illnesses even though it's likely a single virus infecting all of us during that time period. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bmjohnson35 on March 17, 2020, 08:31:20 AM

From the article I posted:

"the study did report these milder undocumented cases were most likely responsible for causing 79 percent of the subsequent documented cases."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 17, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
I'm taking all those statistics with such are large grain of salt that my french fries are set for life.
...
This virus is certainly not a nothing issue, but the numbers are so meaningless at this point that you might as well throw a dart at a board.

@Seadog , I recommend you read this for a better understanding of the numbers we have.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 17, 2020, 01:22:29 PM
.

HOW FUCKING STUPID/SELF-ABSORBED/NAIVE/IRRESPONSIBLE CAN SOMEONE BE???????



"In South Korea, a single person led to more than 1,000 infections by refusing testing and going to religious services and brunches." Ezra Klein (Vox) 3/17/20
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 17, 2020, 01:24:49 PM
Can we suspend faith based businesses for the rest of the year?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 17, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
Can we suspend faith based businesses for the rest of the year?

The whole stock market is a faith based scheme though . . .


Stocks don't actually have any value at all.  They're pieces of paper.  Or 1s and 0s in a machine.  If people lose faith that these bits of paper aren't somehow connected to a company by printing it's name on the piece of paper, the market is toast.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 17, 2020, 03:14:33 PM
Who doesn't recall H1N1?? Why wouldn't we take measures to insure that this doesn't become as bad?? Or worse, given that COVID 19 seems to have a higher hospitalization and death rates?

Apparently all Republicans got zapped with Men In Black mind eraser.  To refresh those memories,  at that time the CDC developed quickly developed a test and a vaccine which was available before the before the start of the winter flu season.  It took about a year before it ran its course.  Obama declared a public health emergency and made of point of getting vaccinated.  There was a lot of public outreach, some schools closed.  It baffles me some claim they didn't remember.   Did they not read any news for year?

At no point did Obama tweet false or misleading statements or contradict his own public health authorities.  He did not blame others. 

Italy has run out of hospital beds.  They have to triage patients.  As was pointed out above, if you are too old you don't get treated.  And by the way, Italy has more hospital beds then than the US on a per capita basis.  The whole country is locked down and they still couldn't get out in front of it. Today deaths in Italy increased by 16%.  That trend doesn't have to continue very long before....we'll we all know the power of  compounding.   

If we don't get in front on this, that will be happening here.  My wife is a health care administrator here in Seattle.  There are staffing shortages right now

Yet many on the right are trying to tell this all a big "hoax."  Their word.   And they've lied and downplayed this and dismissed it.  And those lies extend all the way up to the President and some of his top advisers.   Suggested that Italy ran out of hospital beds and Iran is digging mass graves as a plot to embarrass Trump is too fucking dumb for words. 

Grow the fuck up people and turn off Rush Limbaugh. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 17, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
The number of new cases in Italy has been flat-ish for 4 days in the mid-3,000's. I hope that means the spread is hitting a slow down, but I fear it could mean they basically reached the limit on how many tests can be done in a day there.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 17, 2020, 04:08:10 PM
The number of new cases in Italy has been flat-ish for 4 days in the mid-3,000's. I hope that means the spread is hitting a slow down, but I fear it could mean they basically reached the limit on how many tests can be done in a day there.

Sadly, probably. It doesn't sound good.

Quote
Looking to map the spread of the illness, the head of the northern Veneto region announced that he would ramp up the number of tests done daily to some 11,300 from 3,000 at present.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy/italy-rushes-to-promote-new-doctors-to-relieve-coronavirus-crisis-idUSKBN214245 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy/italy-rushes-to-promote-new-doctors-to-relieve-coronavirus-crisis-idUSKBN214245)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on March 17, 2020, 04:21:41 PM
Who doesn't recall H1N1?? Why wouldn't we take measures to insure that this doesn't become as bad?? Or worse, given that COVID 19 seems to have a higher hospitalization and death rates?

Apparently all Republicans got zapped with Men In Black mind eraser.  To refresh those memories,  at that time the CDC developed quickly developed a test and a vaccine which was available before the before the start of the winter flu season.  It took about a year before it ran its course.  Obama declared a public health emergency and made of point of getting vaccinated.  There was a lot of public outreach, some schools closed.  It baffles me some claim they didn't remember.   Did they not read any news for year?

At no point did Obama tweet false or misleading statements or contradict his own public health authorities.  He did not blame others. 

Italy has run out of hospital beds.  They have to triage patients.  As was pointed out above, if you are too old you don't get treated.  And by the way, Italy has more hospital beds then than the US on a per capita basis.  The whole country is locked down and they still couldn't get out in front of it. Today deaths in Italy increased by 16%.  That trend doesn't have to continue very long before....we'll we all know the power of  compounding.   

If we don't get in front on this, that will be happening here.  My wife is a health care administrator here in Seattle.  There are staffing shortages right now

Yet many on the right are trying to tell this all a big "hoax."  Their word.   And they've lied and downplayed this and dismissed it.  And those lies extend all the way up to the President and some of his top advisers.   Suggested that Italy ran out of hospital beds and Iran is digging mass graves as a plot to embarrass Trump is too fucking dumb for words. 

Grow the fuck up people and turn off Rush Limbaugh.

To be fair most millennials probably don't really recall H1N1 just like many don't really have an appreciate of the stress/crisis during the great recession.  Not a millennial, but I personally don't have a grand memory of H1NI other than I had little kids and my DW was pregnant with another, so I was worried about that.  I also recall that it impacting other countries more than the US.   Nothing shut down or slowed down, there were a few school closings but not widespread and some attributed to regular flu.  We were at the depth of the great recession so there were other stresses and a lot of people already out of work and maybe that pressure clouds my recollection.     

H1N1 was estimated to hit 61 million people with 12,500 deaths but the confirmed figures were 115,000 and 3,400 deaths.   The CDC and others use various methods to make estimates of how widespread it was.   

This seems far worse to me, whether it is real or being blown out of proportion due to the media, or the president bungled a lot of it, or social media makes things so readily apparent an in your face - I don't know.   

The other thing is that H1N1 is a flu so while novel at the time existing treatments (vaccines and anti-virals) could be leveraged to come up with a treatment more quickly, that is not the case for this.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of people that don't have a full recollection of H1N1 if they take away all that they are reading right now - ie reading a historical context but then believes it is memory
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on March 17, 2020, 05:05:18 PM
I wonder about this also.  Most people I know seem to have been very briefly worried about H1N1 at the time, and then almost immediately forgot it the second a vaccine was developed and never worried again.

I can't forget b/c a healthy friend of ours in his 50s got it and ended up in an induced coma for a couple of months, then was revived with nerve and lung damage and had to do about 2 years of physical rehab to breathe well, walk well, and have any manual dexterity. He was a musician, and while he was able to recover his capability from nonexistent after the coma to competent several years later, he'll certainly never play at the level he used to.

Technically, he 'recovered' from H1N1, but he'll never be the same.  I worry that this coronavirus might end up being similar, in that a lot of those who recover might have some impairment that is not yet evident or is not yet being reported in terms of raw numbers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 17, 2020, 05:22:26 PM
Technically, he 'recovered' from H1N1, but he'll never be the same.  I worry that this coronavirus might end up being similar, in that a lot of those who recover might have some impairment that is not yet evident or is not yet being reported in terms of raw numbers.

Thus far about 15% of people infected develop permanent scarring of the lungs. 

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 17, 2020, 05:31:51 PM
Can we suspend faith based businesses for the rest of the year?

The whole stock market is a faith based scheme though . . .


Stocks don't actually have any value at all.  They're pieces of paper.  Or 1s and 0s in a machine.  If people lose faith that these bits of paper aren't somehow connected to a company by printing it's name on the piece of paper, the market is toast.
That's like, deep, man. Tell me about your vegan meditation routine. :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 17, 2020, 05:44:08 PM
Who doesn't recall H1N1?? Why wouldn't we take measures to insure that this doesn't become as bad?? Or worse, given that COVID 19 seems to have a higher hospitalization and death rates?

Apparently all Republicans got zapped with Men In Black mind eraser.  To refresh those memories,  at that time the CDC developed quickly developed a test and a vaccine which was available before the before the start of the winter flu season.  It took about a year before it ran its course.  Obama declared a public health emergency and made of point of getting vaccinated.  There was a lot of public outreach, some schools closed.  It baffles me some claim they didn't remember.   Did they not read any news for year?

At no point did Obama tweet false or misleading statements or contradict his own public health authorities.  He did not blame others. 

Italy has run out of hospital beds.  They have to triage patients.  As was pointed out above, if you are too old you don't get treated.  And by the way, Italy has more hospital beds then than the US on a per capita basis.  The whole country is locked down and they still couldn't get out in front of it. Today deaths in Italy increased by 16%.  That trend doesn't have to continue very long before....we'll we all know the power of  compounding.   

If we don't get in front on this, that will be happening here.  My wife is a health care administrator here in Seattle.  There are staffing shortages right now

Yet many on the right are trying to tell this all a big "hoax."  Their word.   And they've lied and downplayed this and dismissed it.  And those lies extend all the way up to the President and some of his top advisers.   Suggested that Italy ran out of hospital beds and Iran is digging mass graves as a plot to embarrass Trump is too fucking dumb for words. 

Grow the fuck up people and turn off Rush Limbaugh.

To be fair most millennials probably don't really recall H1N1 just like many don't really have an appreciate of the stress/crisis during the great recession.  Not a millennial, but I personally don't have a grand memory of H1NI other than I had little kids and my DW was pregnant with another, so I was worried about that.  I also recall that it impacting other countries more than the US.   Nothing shut down or slowed down, there were a few school closings but not widespread and some attributed to regular flu.  We were at the depth of the great recession so there were other stresses and a lot of people already out of work and maybe that pressure clouds my recollection.     

H1N1 was estimated to hit 61 million people with 12,500 deaths but the confirmed figures were 115,000 and 3,400 deaths.   The CDC and others use various methods to make estimates of how widespread it was.   

This seems far worse to me, whether it is real or being blown out of proportion due to the media, or the president bungled a lot of it, or social media makes things so readily apparent an in your face - I don't know.   

The other thing is that H1N1 is a flu so while novel at the time existing treatments (vaccines and anti-virals) could be leveraged to come up with a treatment more quickly, that is not the case for this.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of people that don't have a full recollection of H1N1 if they take away all that they are reading right now - ie reading a historical context but then believes it is memory

I was early-mid 20s during H1N1. My memories are pretty vague. I had to look up when it happened because I couldn't remember.

I also pretty much floated through all the 2008/housing/etc - I had a job because I graduated early enough, I wasn't in danger of losing said job, etc. It did not personally impact me. My sister was impacted by it so I'm sure her memories are very different than mine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 17, 2020, 06:23:46 PM
Can we suspend faith based businesses for the rest of the year?

The whole stock market is a faith based scheme though . . .


Stocks don't actually have any value at all.  They're pieces of paper.  Or 1s and 0s in a machine.  If people lose faith that these bits of paper aren't somehow connected to a company by printing it's name on the piece of paper, the market is toast.
That's like, deep, man. Tell me about your vegan meditation routine. :)

Just sayin'.  I used to be quick to make fun of religious people for their blind faith in things that make no sense . . . but have tried to tone that down a bit ever since I realized that I do much the same albeit in slightly different ways.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 17, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

New cases declined for the first time in the last 24-hour reporting cycle.

Suspect the current suppressive measures might be working and we have probably broken the back of the disease. Time will tell.

I suspect the reaction was also an over-reaction, but I am someone who is in the low-risk category for the disease, and I'm also someone who tends to deal with median outcomes rather than trying at all costs to avoid the low (1-10%, say) chance of a truly uncontrollable reaction. Shrug. Most people are extremely risk-averse when it comes to large, visible risks, so they deal with it differently.

I have no issue with doing 200km/h (twice the speed limit) on a backcountry public road, but I drive slower than the speed limit in nasty weather or traffic. Most people will just follow the speed limit regardless, but then drive at 10km under when they see a police vehicle. It's all just about different tolerances to and perceptions of risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 17, 2020, 06:54:02 PM

It seems like the people who think it's an overreaction are Trumpers, watch FOX News, or are young and don't care about other people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 17, 2020, 06:56:30 PM
<snip>
New cases declined for the first time in the last 24-hour reporting cycle.
<snip>
? almost 13k yesterday, 15K today . . .

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Unless you're saying 12,924 is substantially more than 12,897. Technically a decrease, but that's well within the noise for sure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 17, 2020, 07:03:28 PM
<snip>
New cases declined for the first time in the last 24-hour reporting cycle.
<snip>
? almost 13k yesterday, 15K today . . .

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Unless you're saying 12,924 is substantially more than 12,897. Technically a decrease, but that's well within the noise for sure.

I'm looking at the charts on this page which have slightly different figures:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic#Diagrams
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 17, 2020, 09:26:52 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

This is the Surgeon General of the United States:

“We are at a critical inflection point in this country, people,” Adams said. “When you look at the projections, there’s every chance that we could be Italy.”

There were an estimated 1,700 cases of coronavirus and 34 deaths in Italy two weeks ago. Now Italy is reporting an estimated 27,000 cases and more than 2,100 deaths.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/16/surgeon-general-on-coronavirus-us-could-become-as-bad-as-italy/

I should note I checked earlier today and the number of deaths is up to 2,500.   A 16% increase over the day before. 

The difference is not social media because we had social media back then too.    The difference is COVID19 has the potential to overwhelm our medical facilities, just as it did in Wuhan and Italy. 

Another difference is our government leaders took H1N1 very seriously from the very beginning.  The didn't make dipshit remarks like “No. Not at all. And we have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine,"  or “Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away,"  or “We had 12, at one point. And now they’ve gotten very much better. Many of them are fully recovered,"  or “We’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.”

There is a word for these type of statements.  It is called "lying." 

Or consider this helpful Tweet:

Cryin’ Chuck Schumer is complaining, for publicity purposes only, that I should be asking for more money than $2.5 Billion to prepare for Coronavirus. If I asked for more he would say it is too much. He didn’t like my early travel closings. I was right. He is incompetent!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232304804820467714

The $8.3 billion that the president fought against as being too big, now looks like far too little.

Or this remark from a press conference:

And here we’re talking about a much smaller range (than the flu).  Now, hopefully, it stays at a much smaller range. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-members-coronavirus-task-force-meeting-pharmaceutical-companies/

Note: COVID19 is roughly 6-10 times more lethal than the flu.  If Trump doens't know that at this point it means he is either lying or doesn't know shit about a potential major crisis.  Neither is a good look.

Consider this Tweet:

The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232058127740174339

Again, he's either lying or doesn't know what is going on.   Great tip on the stock market too. 

Also this remark:

Q    Are you concerned that the virus is getting closer to the White House and D.C.?

PRESIDENT TRUMP:  No, I’m not concerned at all.  No, I’m not.  No, we’ve done a great job.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-bolsonaro-brazil-working-dinner-west-palm-beach-fl/

Not concerned at all.  That was just ten days ago by the way.   Plenty more lies where those came from too. 

Organization take the priorities of their leaders.  If the boss isn't concerned at all then nobody else is either.   That's the difference.  In 2009 H1N1 was taken seriously.  In 2020 Trump consistently downplayed any problems on an almost daily basis.  Tweet after Tweet minimizing the danger.  And the lack of concern was picked up and amplified by his surrogates in government and in the media (Yes, Rush Limbaugh is part of the media). 

Pro tip:  Look at what the big money does.  The NCAA tournament makes billions of dollars, and the money is spread far and wide.  You don't walk away from money like that unless you think the risk of going forward is worse.  Billions of dollars.  Social media didn't do that.  Same with the NBA, MLB, XLF and so on.  You don't walk away from the big bucks unless that's the only option. 

Apple closed all of it stores.  They didn't do it because of social media.  They did it because they were worried about something more than the immediate lost sales.

This isn't social media being mean to our president.  This is our president consistently lying and downplaying a real risk to our country. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 17, 2020, 09:32:28 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

This is the Surgeon General of the United States:

“We are at a critical inflection point in this country, people,” Adams said. “When you look at the projections, there’s every chance that we could be Italy.”

There were an estimated 1,700 cases of coronavirus and 34 deaths in Italy two weeks ago. Now Italy is reporting an estimated 27,000 cases and more than 2,100 deaths.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/16/surgeon-general-on-coronavirus-us-could-become-as-bad-as-italy/

I should note I checked earlier today and the number of deaths is up to 2,500.   A 16% increase over the day before. 

The difference is not social media because we had social media back then too.    The difference is COVID19 has the potential to overwhelm our medical facilities, just as it did in Wuhan and Italy. 

Another difference is our government leaders took H1N1 very seriously from the very beginning.  The didn't make dipshit remarks like “No. Not at all. And we have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine,"  or “Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away,"  or “We had 12, at one point. And now they’ve gotten very much better. Many of them are fully recovered,"  or “We’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.”

There is a word for these type of statements.  It is called "lying." 

Or consider this helpful Tweet:

Cryin’ Chuck Schumer is complaining, for publicity purposes only, that I should be asking for more money than $2.5 Billion to prepare for Coronavirus. If I asked for more he would say it is too much. He didn’t like my early travel closings. I was right. He is incompetent!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232304804820467714

The $8.3 billion that the president fought against as being too big, now looks like far too little.

Or this remark from a press conference:

And here we’re talking about a much smaller range (than the flu).  Now, hopefully, it stays at a much smaller range. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-members-coronavirus-task-force-meeting-pharmaceutical-companies/

Note: COVID19 is roughly 6-10 times more lethal than the flu.  If Trump doens't know that at this point it means he is either lying or doesn't know shit about a potential major crisis.  Neither is a good look.

Consider this Tweet:

The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232058127740174339

Again, he's either lying or doesn't know what is going on.   Great tip on the stock market too. 

Also this remark:

Q    Are you concerned that the virus is getting closer to the White House and D.C.?

PRESIDENT TRUMP:  No, I’m not concerned at all.  No, I’m not.  No, we’ve done a great job.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-bolsonaro-brazil-working-dinner-west-palm-beach-fl/

Not concerned at all.  That was just ten days ago by the way.   Plenty more lies where those came from too. 

Organization take the priorities of their leaders.  If the boss isn't concerned at all then nobody else is either.   That's the difference.  In 2009 H1N1 was taken seriously.  In 2020 Trump consistently downplayed any problems on an almost daily basis.  Tweet after Tweet minimizing the danger.  And the lack of concern was picked up and amplified by his surrogates in government and in the media (Yes, Rush Limbaugh is part of the media). 

Pro tip:  Look at what the big money does.  The NCAA tournament makes billions of dollars, and the money is spread far and wide.  You don't walk away from money like that unless you think the risk of going forward is worse.  Billions of dollars.  Social media didn't do that.  Same with the NBA, MLB, XLF and so on.  You don't walk away from the big bucks unless that's the only option. 

Apple closed all of it stores.  They didn't do it because of social media.  They did it because they were worried about something more than the immediate lost sales.

This isn't social media being mean to our president.  This is our president consistently lying and downplaying a real risk to our country.

Well said.

I suggest reading this to see what it's like in Northern Italy right now.

In simple terms for the clueless and the deniers, 7 of those 10 pages of obituaries are dead from this epidemic -- and that's just one day's newspaper in Italy.

Those are real people who have families, who loved and lived and now are dead because Italy mishandled this epidemic.   Take a look.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-obituaries-bergamo-italy/2020/03/16/6c342f02-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0HMyLfgJ6fSzGhFeBcO1wdclHJshYT_6oi4J2oKh4ZRWC5rKltCElGwWI&utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-obituaries-bergamo-italy/2020/03/16/6c342f02-66c7-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0HMyLfgJ6fSzGhFeBcO1wdclHJshYT_6oi4J2oKh4ZRWC5rKltCElGwWI&utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook)

That paper usually has 2-3 pages of obituaries. It has the 10 you can see. People aren't being buried, they are being cremated. One day, but maybe not right away, because the crematoriums are running 24/7 and aren't keeping up.   They have to forget about funerals or saying goodbye to their loved one at the hospital before they pass.   

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 17, 2020, 09:36:07 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

Within 2 days, COVID 19 will kill as many people in Italy as H1N1 killed in all of Europe in 2009-2010.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 17, 2020, 09:48:45 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

Within 2 days, COVID 19 will kill as many people in Italy as H1N1 killed in all of Europe in 2009-2010.

And don't forget, all those Italians are really volunteering to die so US Democrats can make Trump look bad.

No, I don't believe that and Yes, I do know Trumpites so damn stubborn they still believe this is a hoax of some sort.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on March 17, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

Within 2 days, COVID 19 will kill as many people in Italy as H1N1 killed in all of Europe in 2009-2010.
I lived in Europe during H1N1, but I had to double check that, because nobody gave two shits. I don't remember the government ordering anyone around, or anything closing down. Maybe an email from the university that went straight to the trash.

The two situations are on two completely different playing fields.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 18, 2020, 03:06:22 AM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Netherlands.

5 relatives sick
7 friends

1 critical
1 in hospital
1 with 0 symptoms

The others have symptoms anywhere from feeling mildly under the weather for a few days to unable to get out of bed for 10 days. The nasty thing with a virus is that it hits whole families all at once.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 18, 2020, 03:16:15 AM
This is a big and very geographically spread community- does anyone know someone who got the virus?  A relative?  Friend of a friend?  How did it go?

Netherlands.

5 relatives sick
7 friends

1 critical
1 in hospital
1 with 0 symptoms

The others have symptoms anywhere from feeling mildly under the weather for a few days to unable to get out of bed for 10 days. The nasty thing with a virus is that it hits whole families all at once.
Imma, I'm sorry to hear that.  Wishing you and your family and friends the best.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 18, 2020, 03:32:54 AM
Those European borders that cannot be closed? Yeah, they're closing, partially:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51897069

Sure, formally some inner borders and the outer borders are closed.

Informally? People who have been left stranded trying to enter the country they live in but aren't citizens of, others aren't allowed into their home country unless they go into quarantaine because they come from a country where the virus is widespread. What do you think those people are going to do? Yup, now they can't fly in they're going to get into a car and drive home on the backroads because they don't have symptoms so they don't feel they should be in quarantaine.

We haven't even tried to close the border where I live because there's no point in even trying. People are advised not to travel abroad and most flights are cancelled, that's about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 18, 2020, 07:49:56 AM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 18, 2020, 07:55:28 AM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

You don't actually know any Trump supporters, do you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Omy on March 18, 2020, 09:20:55 AM
I just read an article suggesting that Trump supporters will be hardest hit by this. As a group, they are older and believe that the media is making this up to hurt Trump...and they aren't buying into social distancing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 18, 2020, 09:22:20 AM
I just read an article suggesting that Trump supporters will be hardest hit by this. As a group, they are older and believe that the media is making this up to hurt Trump...and they aren't buying into social distancing.

Karma.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 18, 2020, 09:39:04 AM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

You don't actually know any Trump supporters, do you?

I would bet not.   The ones I know want to believe it's all some liberal conspiracy to make Trump look bad.   All the people dying all over the world is either not really happening or they're dying so US Democrats can win the election.     They seem to be waffling on which is the 'true' explanation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Cassie on March 18, 2020, 09:54:53 AM
Everyone I know is staying home. Even my kids who aren’t at high risk like we are. I canceled all my medical appointments.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on March 18, 2020, 10:07:07 AM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

Magical thinking.  If one wants/believes something enough, it will happen.  Seems to be Trumps' MO, so why not the followers too?

You don't actually know any Trump supporters, do you?

I would bet not.   The ones I know want to believe it's all some liberal conspiracy to make Trump look bad.   All the people dying all over the world is either not really happening or they're dying so US Democrats can win the election.     They seem to be waffling on which is the 'true' explanation.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 18, 2020, 10:19:41 AM
Everyone I know is staying home. Even my kids who aren’t at high risk like we are. I canceled all my medical appointments.

My medical appointments have been cancelled for me.  I have a dental cleaning next month and haven't heard from the office yet, but I can only assume it's also going to be cancelled.  If not I am planning to cancel it before then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 18, 2020, 10:20:45 AM
Everyone I know is staying home. Even my kids who aren’t at high risk like we are. I canceled all my medical appointments.

My medical appointments have been cancelled for me.  I have a dental cleaning next month and haven't heard from the office yet, but I can only assume it's also going to be cancelled.  If not I am planning to cancel it before then.
I got a call today to schedule an appointment for an extremely non-urgent referral . . .
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 18, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
Because of peoples stupidity a shutdown imo is inevitable so lets do it now and be done with it. I dont think this is a political thing nor making it one helps but just gets this divided country that much more angry.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 18, 2020, 02:40:52 PM

It seems like the people who think it's an overreaction are Trumpers, watch FOX News, or are young and don't care about other people.

FIFY. You don't need to be young to not care about others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 18, 2020, 05:01:11 PM

It seems like the people who think it's an overreaction are Trumpers, watch FOX News, or are young and don't care about other people.

FIFY. You don't need to be young to not care about others.

The young (and healthy) think they are invulnerable, so many of them don't consider it as serious and don't like to quarantine or see government action closing down their bars, etc., and the economic fallout from all of the response to the coronavirus, so they complain that it's an overreaction, since they personally aren't likely to have a serious illness from COVID-19.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 18, 2020, 05:21:13 PM

It seems like the people who think it's an overreaction are Trumpers, watch FOX News, or are young and don't care about other people.

FIFY. You don't need to be young to not care about others.

The young (and healthy) think they are invulnerable, so many of them don't consider it as serious and don't like to quarantine or see government action closing down their bars, etc., and the economic fallout from all of the response to the coronavirus, so they complain that it's an overreaction, since they personally aren't likely to have a serious illness from COVID-19.

Yes. But there's an awful lot of assholes, narcissists, self-absorbed, or just plain nasty people out there who aren't young and don't care. I'm fairly sure my neighbor is doing her normal routine. Luckily for everyone, her normal routine is stay at home 90% of the time anyway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 18, 2020, 05:29:16 PM

It seems like the people who think it's an overreaction are Trumpers, watch FOX News, or are young and don't care about other people.

FIFY. You don't need to be young to not care about others.

The young (and healthy) think they are invulnerable, so many of them don't consider it as serious and don't like to quarantine or see government action closing down their bars, etc., and the economic fallout from all of the response to the coronavirus, so they complain that it's an overreaction, since they personally aren't likely to have a serious illness from COVID-19.

That's only because some numbers have been hyped over others. It's true that you're a lot more likely to die if you are older with underlying conditions. That doesn't mean that the only people getting a serious dose will be in that category. 30% of people will get a severe dose, no matter their age. A severe dose means that you'll be seriously ill and possibly hospitalised. You may develop lifelong respiratory problems from the damage. You may well die, even if you're young and healthy, especially if the hospital systems are overwhelmed. Or if supply chains are overwhelmed and you're suddenly a bit malnourished. Or if you find you can't get clean water so easily. Or if you have at the same time some otherwise not life threatening condition that you can't get treatment for - even basic parasite infestations might qualify for this scenario. Or if you have transport issues and can't physically get to medical care. It doesn't take that much to have a stretched medical, food supply, water and public transport system, and suddenly we're all very vulnerable. Buckle up, people. You better hope all those scientists that haven't had decent funding in decades develop some good drugs quickly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 18, 2020, 05:47:58 PM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 18, 2020, 05:57:00 PM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.

That's because you're listening to news sources taking about death rates, not rates of illness. The link below is a one I found available to everyone. The 30% I got from a study published on a subscription medical study site. It was published a week or more ago so data may have changed.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/u-s-official-says-data-show-severe-coronavirus-infections-among-millennials-not-just-older-americans/

"....which appeared in the journal Pediatrics and looked at more than 2,100 pediatric infections in China, reported that 90% of children had asymptomatic, mild, or moderate infections. Only 5.9% had severe or critical cases, compared to up to 20% in adults."


"“The idea that this is a disease that causes death in older people, we need to be very, very careful with,” said Mike Ryan, the head of the WHO’s emergency program, who noted that almost 20% of deaths in South Korea were in people younger than 60."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: hops on March 18, 2020, 06:13:10 PM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.

That's because you're listening to news sources taking about death rates, not rates of illness. The link below is a one I found available to everyone. The 30% I got from a study published on a subscription medical study site. It was published a week or more ago so data may have changed.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/u-s-official-says-data-show-severe-coronavirus-infections-among-millennials-not-just-older-americans/


A relevant article with some early figures from the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

Edited to add these excerpts from the article:

Quote
"I think everyone should be paying attention to this," said Stephen S. Morse, a professor of epidemiology at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. "It's not just going to be the elderly. There will be people age 20 and up. They do have to be careful, even if they think that they’re young and healthy."

And, about the limitations of the earliest data:

Quote
Some of the patients in the study are still sick, the authors noted, so the results of their cases are unclear. Data was missing for a number of the cases, "which likely resulted in an underestimation of the outcomes," the authors wrote. Because of the missing data, the authors presented percentages of hospitalizations, I.C.U. admissions and deaths as a range. The report also says that the limited testing available in the United States so far makes this report only an early snapshot of the crisis.

Still, the authors wrote, "these preliminary data also demonstrate that severe illness leading to hospitalization, including I.C.U. admission and death, can occur in adults of any age with Covid-19."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on March 18, 2020, 07:07:22 PM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

Not so far.

The number of Republicans who consider coronavirus a serious threat has actually *fallen* in the past month, from 72 to 40 percent.

Because of Trump.

He has blood on his hands.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/17/trump-learns-pitfalls-his-pinocchio-presidency/
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 18, 2020, 07:23:21 PM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.

That's because you're listening to news sources taking about death rates, not rates of illness. The link below is a one I found available to everyone. The 30% I got from a study published on a subscription medical study site. It was published a week or more ago so data may have changed.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/u-s-official-says-data-show-severe-coronavirus-infections-among-millennials-not-just-older-americans/


A relevant article with some early figures from the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

The study said:
"Only 5.9% [of children] had severe or critical cases, compared to up to 20% in adults."

"Up to 20%" (which itself is a vague figure - this might mean that of the most vulnerable group, the 20% applied) of all adults doesn't equate to 30% of young and healthy adults.

And the NYT article also doesn't provide a percentage figure for how many people within a cohort could expect to suffer a severe illness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: familyandfarming on March 18, 2020, 07:34:31 PM
For those who are wondering if we made it 2 states away, we did! We only stopped for gas, ate our lunch in the car, and sanitized the gas nozzle handle. We got there just in time as the governor called all school off for the rest of the year. It’s going to rain 2 weeks, so my husband will fix all sorts of things around the house (it’s in the middle of nowhere) before heading back. I’ve committed myself to many months of being with my adorable grandchildren!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: marble_faun on March 18, 2020, 08:13:46 PM
You'd think Trump would have taken coronavirus more seriously, considering the overlap in age demographics between his voter base and those most likely to die from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 18, 2020, 08:58:43 PM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

The chances of that are 0.0000%

They will do what they always do and triple down on their platform of lies, disinformation, and blaming people with brown skin.

There is a bit of good news.  Fox News hosts have decided to stop their lying and disinformation campaign:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKbwDf51bA&feature=emb_logo

Because they have no brains, all the right wing Fucktards will forget about all their previous stream of lies, and get on board.

So that's good, Fox News stopped actively working against the public health of the interests of the entire country.  Maybe, just maybe, we can actually work towards a solution without Fox and Rush Limbaugh actively throwing sand in the gears.

[MOD NOTE: I get the anger, but let's try to keep things more constructive.]

Bad new is:  The right wing anti-American fucktards have worked overtime to block effective action against a major public health crisis.   And the lies and bullshit have cost us about two months headstart, and the lies and bullshit have continued even as we watch the horror show unfold in Wuhan and Italy in real time.  "Fake news!" the fucktards claim.

Attn: Right wing anti-American fucktards.  You are complete and total pieces of shit.  Your anti-science, anti-American agenda will result in the needless deaths of lots of people.  This was seen early on as a major problem and in response our president and government spewed a stream of lies and BS that would fertilize the Sinai. Yet you supported this stream of lies and BS and downplayed the problem until it became too late to take effective action.   And you did it because you falsely concluded lying would result in a "win" for your side.  Putting party over country was more important than county. 

You are the dregs of humanity.  And I'm being generous.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 18, 2020, 09:08:24 PM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

The chances of that are 0.0000%

Pretty much.

If corona ends up blowing over without an issue, it'll be people who wanted to ruin business/have more government control take more power. And more people just being sissies or overreacting.

If it's a big deal, it's easily blamed on China and all the more reason to have stronger borders.

Pretty much the only way this situation doesn't get twisted for Trump's benefit is if he dies of it tbh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 18, 2020, 09:23:24 PM
I wonder if coronavirus will create some sort of turning point where Trump supporters are finally forced to accept some small amount of reality that doesn't jive with the Trump/Fox News propaganda machine of lies.

The chances of that are 0.0000%

They will do what they always do and triple down on their platform of lies, disinformation, and blaming people with brown skin.

There is a bit of good news.  Fox News hosts have decided to stop their lying and disinformation campaign:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKbwDf51bA&feature=emb_logo

Because they have no brains, all the right wing Fucktards will forget about all their previous stream of lies, and get on board.

So that's good, Fox News stopped actively working against the public health of the interests of the entire country.  Maybe, just maybe, we can actually work towards a solution without Fox and Rush Limbaugh actively throwing sand in the gears.

Bad new is:  The right wing anti-American fucktards have worked overtime to block effective action against a major public health crisis.   And the lies and bullshit have cost us about two months headstart, and the lies and bullshit have continued even as we watch the horror show unfold in Wuhan and Italy in real time.  "Fake news!" the fucktards claim.

Attn:  Right wing anti-American fucktards.  You are complete and total pieces of shit.  Your anti-science, anti-American agenda will result in the needless deaths of lots of people.  This was seen early on as a major problem and in response our president and government spewed a stream of lies and BS that would fertilize the Sinai. Yet you supported this stream of lies and BS and downplayed the problem until it became too late to take effective action.   And you did it because you falsely concluded lying would result in a "win" for your side.  Putting party over country was more important than county. 

You are the dregs of humanity.  And I'm being generous.

There is one of these from my high school that frequently posts about hating liars and bullies. Such a disconnect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 18, 2020, 11:02:57 PM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.

That's because you're listening to news sources taking about death rates, not rates of illness. The link below is a one I found available to everyone. The 30% I got from a study published on a subscription medical study site. It was published a week or more ago so data may have changed.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/u-s-official-says-data-show-severe-coronavirus-infections-among-millennials-not-just-older-americans/


A relevant article with some early figures from the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

The study said:
"Only 5.9% [of children] had severe or critical cases, compared to up to 20% in adults."

"Up to 20%" (which itself is a vague figure - this might mean that of the most vulnerable group, the 20% applied) of all adults doesn't equate to 30% of young and healthy adults.

And the NYT article also doesn't provide a percentage figure for how many people within a cohort could expect to suffer a severe illness.

My advice to you would be to get on some of the open access article sites like PubMed, AMJ or BMJ and do your reading from the source. I can't link you to what I'm reading because you'd only be able to see the abstract. News sites are the not the place to get real information on epidemiology
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 19, 2020, 04:35:11 AM
What source says that 30% of young, healthy people will have a severe reaction from the disease? That's not my understanding of the epidemiology, at all.

That's because you're listening to news sources taking about death rates, not rates of illness. The link below is a one I found available to everyone. The 30% I got from a study published on a subscription medical study site. It was published a week or more ago so data may have changed.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/u-s-official-says-data-show-severe-coronavirus-infections-among-millennials-not-just-older-americans/


A relevant article with some early figures from the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html

The study said:
"Only 5.9% [of children] had severe or critical cases, compared to up to 20% in adults."

"Up to 20%" (which itself is a vague figure - this might mean that of the most vulnerable group, the 20% applied) of all adults doesn't equate to 30% of young and healthy adults.

And the NYT article also doesn't provide a percentage figure for how many people within a cohort could expect to suffer a severe illness.

My advice to you would be to get on some of the open access article sites like PubMed, AMJ or BMJ and do your reading from the source. I can't link you to what I'm reading because you'd only be able to see the abstract. News sites are the not the place to get real information on epidemiology

You can - sci-hub.tw is your best friend to get full text papers without a university account. Heck, I prefer sci-hub because it's less laborious than going through the university library website.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on March 19, 2020, 06:06:58 PM
So the latest story is how college students are still flocking to Florida to enjoy their spring break whining about how this virus thing is restricting them.  A friend of a friend commented that there's nothing wrong with their behavior and if old sick people don't want to die, they should just stay away from these kids.

Yes, because infected people clearly have a big icon floating over there heads alerting others to stay away from them, and people carrying a highly communicable illness should be allowed unfettered access to the rest of society.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 19, 2020, 06:22:56 PM
Tragedy of the commons. But if we let people smoke and eat themselves to death and cause huge medical costs for the rest of the community, we can hardly complain about others (college students) making decisions in the moment that cause social costs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 19, 2020, 06:41:20 PM
Tragedy of the commons. But if we let people smoke and eat themselves to death and cause huge medical costs for the rest of the community, we can hardly complain about others (college students) making decisions in the moment that cause social costs.

Sure we can.  And we should... loudly.  We are finding out younger people are not as invulnerable as originally thought, so it's not totally self-less to self quarantine if you're younger.  And that benefits society to keep the spread down - flatten the curve.  It doesn't appear to be working so well, so people really need to hunker down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on March 19, 2020, 06:53:09 PM
Tragedy of the commons. But if we let people smoke and eat themselves to death and cause huge medical costs for the rest of the community, we can hardly complain about others (college students) making decisions in the moment that cause social costs.

Really getting tired of the "but Americans eat like shit and nobody cares" comparisons.  I can choose not to eat poorly prepared or otherwise unhealthy food.  I can stay away from people with a cigarette plainly sticking out of their mouths.  I can't choose whose contaminated exhalations I breath in, especially if they don't know it themselves.  And we've already done a pretty good job of ostracizing smokers and making it financially difficult to pursue their habit through additional sales taxes. 

But nevermind one of these kids could chain-reaction infect thousands of people during their travels this week. Kids gotta party.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 19, 2020, 07:19:48 PM
Tragedy of the commons. But if we let people smoke and eat themselves to death and cause huge medical costs for the rest of the community, we can hardly complain about others (college students) making decisions in the moment that cause social costs.

Not to single this comment out, but how did the human race become so bad at solving problems?  Sure, you (and many bloggers, MMM included) may have a point that the ongoing societal problems with obesity and car accidents are a problem that no on seems to care about.  We could have a great discussion about if the benefits of eating too much or driving outweigh the cumulative costs of dying somewhat earlier than if you were healthier. 

But there is a real, solvable pandemic going on in the world and we don't need to distract ourselves with this stuff right now while we marshal our attention toward winning this immediate, acute 'war'.   Once we stop transmitting the virus to each other (like China seems to have), then you can tell me all about how too many lives are lost to other preventable (but less immediate) causes all day long.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 19, 2020, 07:31:58 PM
I'm not saying that the college students are doing the right thing, or that you shouldn't try to dissuade them from doing what they're doing, or that it's objectively reasonable to congregate in large numbers.

I'm saying that you can tell them what to do, but unless you force them to stop congregating, no other soft strategy will work.

There are very few things (other than self-interest, or perceived self-interest) that motivate large groups of humans, and that's just one of the features of the tragedy of the commons.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 21, 2020, 06:16:31 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 21, 2020, 06:29:04 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago
The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”.



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago

 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban

washingtontimes.com
3 days ago

Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...

I'm really at the point that if these damn fools want to go get themselves killed by this virus, it's ok by me.   Less of them around come November.

My only regrets are (a) they are so stupid they are a danger to us all and (b) innocent people might be killed by these nitwits.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MilesTeg on March 21, 2020, 06:47:08 PM
There was no cancellation of all sporting events and school closures with entire cities being told to shelter in place during H1N1.  Considering the huge numbers affected back then vs. now it seems very much not the same.  What is different?  Pervasive social platforms and a media with a 24 hour agenda.  I resent them.  Inferring that anyone who notices the difference must be some tinfoil hat bitter clinger is not helpful.  I hope that since we are in the thick of it now the extreme measures will simply result in a swifter conclusion.  We can argue about whether there was an over reaction once everyone is in the clear.

Why the hell are people still comparing Corona to swine flu and declaring swine flu worse. Can you folks not grasp the difference in time frame and confirmed vs estimated cases?

Corona is just getting going and we're already blowing past confirmed case counts for swine flu over a 2 year period, and swine flu had a 0.02% mortality rate.

When it's all said and done the number of cases, hospitalizations, permanent injuries and deaths from Corona will dwarf swine flu no matter what we do at this point. The only thing we can do is work to mitigate as much as possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 21, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago
The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”.



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago

 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban

washingtontimes.com
3 days ago

Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...

I'm really at the point that if these damn fools want to go get themselves killed by this virus, it's ok by me.   Less of them around come November.

My only regrets are (a) they are so stupid they are a danger to us all and (b) innocent people might be killed by these nitwits.

Bit of history...
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2020/03/influenza-pandemic-1918-churches/

Religion can both help and hinder, as evidenced during the 1918 flu pandemic. I'm perfectly ok with prosecuting the ones that hinder.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 22, 2020, 04:49:15 PM
buzzfeednews
 Coronavirus
5 days ago


The Coronavirus Is Spreading Through Latin America, But Mexico's President Is Still Out There Kissing Children



Washington Post
days ago


 “There are those who say we should stop hugging because of coronavirus...But we should hug. Nothing’s going to happen.”

 
 "[Conservative opponents]  want us to get infected...That’s what they want so they can blame me for everything.”


 “Pandemics and other unfortunate events won’t do anything to us.”

Mexico’s president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador




"That he’s over 60 years old doesn’t mean he faces any specific risks."

“The president’s strength is moral in nature...His force is not that of contagion.”

Hugo López-Gatell, Mexico’s deputy secretary of health
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 23, 2020, 03:05:34 AM
One of our ex politicians wrote a wonderful article today

https://www.theage.com.au/national/people-on-bondi-beach-win-the-selfish-and-stupid-award-20200321-p54chx.html

Quote
The worst behaviour is from people who are returning from overseas or for other reasons have been told to self-isolate and don't.

They are wilfully putting their fellow Australians at risk. If you know someone like this, tick them off over the phone and then rub them off your contact list. They're selfish idiots, repositories of stupidity and you don't need to carry that baggage around for the rest of your life.

The people at Bondi Beach last week win the selfish and stupid award. We've all been asked to keep our distance, to limit our social interaction to help slow the spread. We thus contribute to flattening the curve so that our health system can cope. We will contribute to saving lives. But not those morons in Bondi.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: May2030 on March 23, 2020, 03:55:20 AM
Not sure if this will play if you are state side as I am UK based but here is a call from a ER consultant to a radio show. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0877mb2

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 23, 2020, 08:16:12 AM
I have a friend whining that parking lots are being closed at local parks. Then she proceeded to tell me her experience at one of those very same crowded parks this weekend.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on March 23, 2020, 10:13:57 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 23, 2020, 10:15:02 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

The Mexican President is saying that he is too morally strong to be subject to the virus, amongst other crap.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 23, 2020, 10:15:16 AM
Explains why they are needing a mass grave there @SunnyDays
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on March 24, 2020, 03:45:44 AM
I am absolutely shocked that this happened. No way could anybody foresee this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-florida-spring-break-test-positive-covid-19-college-students-not-social-distancing-university-of-tampa/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-florida-spring-break-test-positive-covid-19-college-students-not-social-distancing-university-of-tampa/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 24, 2020, 05:48:07 AM

The Mexican President is saying that he is too morally strong to be subject to the virus, amongst other crap.



Something incorporeal such as a character trait cannot provide immunity against a virus.

 Thus his belief is alarmingly  irrational given that he is Mexico's "leader."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 24, 2020, 05:56:25 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 24, 2020, 08:23:44 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

Personally, I think having people this incredibly pig-headed, intentionally ignorant and/or just plain stupid die off early is a blessing to any country.

My only regret is that they'll kill innocent people along with themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 24, 2020, 10:48:57 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

One of the silver linings of the current crisis is that I haven't been dragged to church in a few weeks, and it's looking like I won't be going for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Warlord1986 on March 24, 2020, 11:29:19 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

Personally, I think having people this incredibly pig-headed, intentionally ignorant and/or just plain stupid die off early is a blessing to any country.

My only regret is that they'll kill innocent people along with themselves.

Same. Those people are valuable to God in that they are His children and He loves them. However, they provide nothing of value here on earth and their absence won't hurt anybody.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Jouer on March 24, 2020, 11:38:27 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

...and then what happened?

I don't mean to pick on Bloop but this kind of thinking is what led to what is going down in the USA right now. Many had the same thoughts.

The best time to take this thing seriously was several weeks ago. The second best time is right now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on March 24, 2020, 11:59:19 AM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

And then there are the majority of churches that have moved to online services and have organized groups of volunteers to bring food and water and other necessities to those who are unable to go out to purchase these things for themselves or who are in the high-risk categories and do not want to venture outside. Those who have cars and who stocked up early are now cooking and dropping off food supplies  from their own stash to those who were unable to stock up early. Many of these folks were motivated to reach out and help because of their faith. I know there are many non-religious groups that do the same thing because of other values that they hold. My point as simply that the churches in the article are outliers and it’s not fair to lump all religious groups in with them by saying that religion is the bane of humanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 24, 2020, 12:35:23 PM
Yeah, I'm not religious at all, but in my area I think only the non-mainline Evangelical churches are still open. All the big Christian denomination churches and mosques went to online services two weekends ago.

Pretty much the churches full of Trump voters are the ones that have continued to hold normal services.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 24, 2020, 02:28:24 PM
Yeah, I'm not religious at all, but in my area I think only the non-mainline Evangelical churches are still open. All the big Christian denomination churches and mosques went to online services two weekends ago.

Pretty much the churches full of Trump voters are the ones that have continued to hold normal services.

Deus Vult!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: elaine amj on March 24, 2020, 04:14:54 PM
Loved it - she sure didn't mince any words, did she?

One of our ex politicians wrote a wonderful article today

https://www.theage.com.au/national/people-on-bondi-beach-win-the-selfish-and-stupid-award-20200321-p54chx.html

Quote
The worst behaviour is from people who are returning from overseas or for other reasons have been told to self-isolate and don't.

They are wilfully putting their fellow Australians at risk. If you know someone like this, tick them off over the phone and then rub them off your contact list. They're selfish idiots, repositories of stupidity and you don't need to carry that baggage around for the rest of your life.

The people at Bondi Beach last week win the selfish and stupid award. We've all been asked to keep our distance, to limit our social interaction to help slow the spread. We thus contribute to flattening the curve so that our health system can cope. We will contribute to saving lives. But not those morons in Bondi.



Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 24, 2020, 04:30:43 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

And then there are the majority of churches that have moved to online services and have organized groups of volunteers to bring food and water and other necessities to those who are unable to go out to purchase these things for themselves or who are in the high-risk categories and do not want to venture outside. Those who have cars and who stocked up early are now cooking and dropping off food supplies  from their own stash to those who were unable to stock up early. Many of these folks were motivated to reach out and help because of their faith. I know there are many non-religious groups that do the same thing because of other values that they hold. My point as simply that the churches in the article are outliers and it’s not fair to lump all religious groups in with them by saying that religion is the bane of humanity.


I agree.

When  I posted I was well aware of the good works churches do.

That's why I posted  "Sometimes  I think religion is the bane of humanity."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on March 24, 2020, 04:41:23 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

And then there are the majority of churches that have moved to online services and have organized groups of volunteers to bring food and water and other necessities to those who are unable to go out to purchase these things for themselves or who are in the high-risk categories and do not want to venture outside. Those who have cars and who stocked up early are now cooking and dropping off food supplies  from their own stash to those who were unable to stock up early. Many of these folks were motivated to reach out and help because of their faith. I know there are many non-religious groups that do the same thing because of other values that they hold. My point as simply that the churches in the article are outliers and it’s not fair to lump all religious groups in with them by saying that religion is the bane of humanity.


I agree.

When  I posted I was well aware of the good works churches do.

That's why I posted  "Sometimes  I think religion is the bane of humanity."

To me, it comes down to whether religion does more good or more bad.

Sometimes, I think the jury is still out.

But most of the time, I think we’d be better off without it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 24, 2020, 05:00:56 PM
Baton Rouge pastor defies governor,
nbc15.com

Baton-Rouge-pastor-defies-governor
3 days ago

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel ... Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service ... "We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”



Louisiana pastor holds church service with 300 people
cbsnews.com
3 days ago


 Louisiana pastor holds church service for over 300 people, defying ... night with hundreds of congregants despite an order from the state's governor


Rev. Tony Spell defies coronavirus gatherings ban
washingtontimes.com
3 days ago


Declaring that the coronavirus is "politically motivated," a Louisiana pastor held a church service with hundreds of people in violation of the ...


Is this the same guy who said "The power of prayer is greater than this virus?"  No, no it isn't.

Also saw a clip of extremists in Iran kissing and touching the gates to some holy site, with one guy actually licking it, saying that he is "cleaning off the virus."  Their religious leader is actively telling people to defy bans and that this is all a conspiracy by the west or some such crap.

I despair for humanity.

Sometimes I think religion is the bane of humanity.

And then there are the majority of churches that have moved to online services and have organized groups of volunteers to bring food and water and other necessities to those who are unable to go out to purchase these things for themselves or who are in the high-risk categories and do not want to venture outside. Those who have cars and who stocked up early are now cooking and dropping off food supplies  from their own stash to those who were unable to stock up early. Many of these folks were motivated to reach out and help because of their faith. I know there are many non-religious groups that do the same thing because of other values that they hold. My point as simply that the churches in the article are outliers and it’s not fair to lump all religious groups in with them by saying that religion is the bane of humanity.


I agree.

When  I posted I was well aware of the good works churches do.

That's why I posted  "Sometimes  I think religion is the bane of humanity."

To me, it comes down to whether religion does more good or more bad.

Sometimes, I think the jury is still out.

But most of the time, I think we’d be better off without it.

I've thought about  the issue for a long time.

My conclusion differs: I think on balance the world is better off because of religion but not by much.

Regardless of my personal opinion of religion (I am an atheist), as a First Amendment absolutist I've never wavered  from forceful advocacy of the right of all  to worship as they choose under the Free Exercise Clause.

Never.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 08:23:17 AM
Religions are fine as long as they don't spread hatred, prey upon children, or start religious wars. 


If they'd just stick with preaching the Love and "help thy neighbor" message religion would be A-Ok with me. 



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PVD_Kev on March 25, 2020, 08:47:11 AM
Here is some stupidity:

My wife is currently receiving in-home PT and OT due to a broken and dislocated ankle.  The therapists go from house to house to house all day long.

They are not wearing masks or using gloves.

I banned them from the house on Monday.  Considering that they are ostensibly health care workers this is an astonishing screw-up by their employer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 25, 2020, 09:32:24 AM
Here is some stupidity:

My wife is currently receiving in-home PT and OT due to a broken and dislocated ankle.  The therapists go from house to house to house all day long.

They are not wearing masks or using gloves.

I banned them from the house on Monday.  Considering that they are ostensibly health care workers this is an astonishing screw-up by their employer.
Could be the shortage. I'm assuming y'all have a solution for your wife doing the rehab without the workers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 25, 2020, 11:15:04 AM
Here is some stupidity:

My wife is currently receiving in-home PT and OT due to a broken and dislocated ankle.  The therapists go from house to house to house all day long.

They are not wearing masks or using gloves.

I banned them from the house on Monday.  Considering that they are ostensibly health care workers this is an astonishing screw-up by their employer.
Could be the shortage. I'm assuming y'all have a solution for your wife doing the rehab without the workers.

The wife is going to be pretty pissed if she ends up with reduced function for life due to this. PT and OT sometimes has a time limit on effectiveness. And if you do it wrong, you could make things worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 25, 2020, 11:19:19 AM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 25, 2020, 11:22:28 AM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212

There are a lot of people not following the quarantine.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to a full ban on leaving the home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 25, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212

There are a lot of people not following the quarantine.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to a full ban on leaving the home.

I was speaking with a colleague in Corner Brook a few mins ago who has some insider info.  Apparently the lady was in a cab and told the driver that she was supposed to be self isolating.  He stopped cab, told her to get out, and called police.  Police arrived to assess the situation and, as she stomped up the road away from them, explained in explicit detail the manner in which they could fuck themselves and their mother. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 25, 2020, 12:24:05 PM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212

There are a lot of people not following the quarantine.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to a full ban on leaving the home.

I was speaking with a colleague in Corner Brook a few mins ago who has some insider info.  Apparently the lady was in a cab and told the driver that she was supposed to be self isolating.  He stopped cab, told her to get out, and called police.  Police arrived to assess the situation and, as she stomped up the road away from them, explained in explicit detail the manner in which they could fuck themselves and their mother's.

Anyone ready to believe me that we would lose fewer people if we just summarily executed a few of these selfish shits and publicized it thoroughly?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on March 25, 2020, 12:30:54 PM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212

There are a lot of people not following the quarantine.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to a full ban on leaving the home.

Even in Wuhan at its worse, I don’t think there was a full ban. One family member was allowed to leave the home once every couple days to fetch groceries. I guess it depends on how you define “full ban”.

We are currently under a full ban in Shanghai, as in, we have people bringing our groceries to us and we report our temperatures in twice a day and have had to sign a document that we understand we may be jailed if we step outside our apartment. It’s not that bad. Yesterday, I cleaned the patio furniture and enjoyed our balcony for the first time in many months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on March 25, 2020, 01:50:38 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: marty998 on March 25, 2020, 02:29:26 PM
Here is some stupidity:

My wife is currently receiving in-home PT and OT due to a broken and dislocated ankle.  The therapists go from house to house to house all day long.

They are not wearing masks or using gloves.

I banned them from the house on Monday.  Considering that they are ostensibly health care workers this is an astonishing screw-up by their employer.
Could be the shortage. I'm assuming y'all have a solution for your wife doing the rehab without the workers.

The wife is going to be pretty pissed if she ends up with reduced function for life due to this. PT and OT sometimes has a time limit on effectiveness. And if you do it wrong, you could make things worse.

The wife won't be lucky to end up with reduced function if she's dies before that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on March 25, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

I have no idea what the actual death rate of Corona virus is, and I don't think anyone really knows since there's limited testing around the world.

What I do know is that ICU's in my country are getting very crowded and that's after cancelling basically all surgery except emergency surgery. Based on the current rates of infection they expect them to be at full capacity next week. So whatever the theorerical death rate is, the amount of people getting severely ill is so significant that our health system can barely cope after sending almost everyone else home. So there's definitely a big thing going on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464)




You can enjoy Easter Sunday in church with Trump & the WSJ.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 25, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

I have no idea what the actual death rate of Corona virus is, and I don't think anyone really knows since there's limited testing around the world.

What I do know is that ICU's in my country are getting very crowded and that's after cancelling basically all surgery except emergency surgery. Based on the current rates of infection they expect them to be at full capacity next week. So whatever the theorerical death rate is, the amount of people getting severely ill is so significant that our health system can barely cope after sending almost everyone else home. So there's definitely a big thing going on.

Exactly.   There are two death rates -- once the health care system is overwhelmed the death rate is way worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 25, 2020, 05:17:50 PM




You can enjoy Easter Sunday in church with Trump & the WSJ.

And maybe eat some chocolate bunnies and Easter eggs dyed green.

Ha ha!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 25, 2020, 05:29:29 PM
Here is some stupidity:

My wife is currently receiving in-home PT and OT due to a broken and dislocated ankle.  The therapists go from house to house to house all day long.

They are not wearing masks or using gloves.

I banned them from the house on Monday.  Considering that they are ostensibly health care workers this is an astonishing screw-up by their employer.
Could be the shortage. I'm assuming y'all have a solution for your wife doing the rehab without the workers.

The wife is going to be pretty pissed if she ends up with reduced function for life due to this. PT and OT sometimes has a time limit on effectiveness. And if you do it wrong, you could make things worse.

The wife won't be lucky to end up with reduced function if she's dies before that.

Yes, but I strongly object to what sounds like a husband banning individuals providing care to his wife WITHOUT her input or agreement. Sure, maybe that part happened. But that's not what he said happened. So he gets shit from me - either for being a shit by dictating her care without her agreement, or by making it sound like that's what happened.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 25, 2020, 05:31:51 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

I have no idea what the actual death rate of Corona virus is, and I don't think anyone really knows since there's limited testing around the world.

What I do know is that ICU's in my country are getting very crowded and that's after cancelling basically all surgery except emergency surgery. Based on the current rates of infection they expect them to be at full capacity next week. So whatever the theorerical death rate is, the amount of people getting severely ill is so significant that our health system can barely cope after sending almost everyone else home. So there's definitely a big thing going on.

Saw this earlier. Atlanta, GA's ICUs are reported to be at capacity. Atlanta is huge population center, and I haven't heard that they've been staying home for 2 weeks.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/489374-atlanta-mayor-explains-decision-to-impose-stricter-restrictions-than
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 05:39:30 PM
Here's a US county-by-county COVID-19 infection #'s map on Weather Underground.


https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map (https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lutorm on March 25, 2020, 06:17:11 PM
Saw this earlier. Atlanta, GA's ICUs are reported to be at capacity. Atlanta is huge population center, and I haven't heard that they've been staying home for 2 weeks.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/489374-atlanta-mayor-explains-decision-to-impose-stricter-restrictions-than
Maybe once we see what happens to cities that go "oh, our ICUs are full, maybe we should make people stay at home" and then try to handle the unavoidable next few doublings of cases that are already in the pipeline, people will get the picture that you do not want to get behind this thing. Too bad people will have to die to make the point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on March 25, 2020, 06:48:47 PM
Here's a US county-by-county COVID-19 infection #'s map on Weather Underground.


https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map (https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map)

This map is really interesting. However, going by the numbers reported for my county, it's way out of date.  Our county has almost 10x the number of cases reported here (as of yesterday).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on March 25, 2020, 07:28:09 PM
Seems this virus may well have been estimated much more deadly than it really is, by several orders of magnitude.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464

I have no idea what the actual death rate of Corona virus is, and I don't think anyone really knows since there's limited testing around the world.

What I do know is that ICU's in my country are getting very crowded and that's after cancelling basically all surgery except emergency surgery. Based on the current rates of infection they expect them to be at full capacity next week. So whatever the theorerical death rate is, the amount of people getting severely ill is so significant that our health system can barely cope after sending almost everyone else home. So there's definitely a big thing going on.

Saw this earlier. Atlanta, GA's ICUs are reported to be at capacity. Atlanta is huge population center, and I haven't heard that they've been staying home for 2 weeks.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/489374-atlanta-mayor-explains-decision-to-impose-stricter-restrictions-than

It makes me wonder if the people blowing off the risk have ever had or known somebody with pneumonia.  You don't have to die from this thing for you and the community to be royally screwed by it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BECABECA on March 25, 2020, 07:44:20 PM
Saw this earlier. Atlanta, GA's ICUs are reported to be at capacity. Atlanta is huge population center, and I haven't heard that they've been staying home for 2 weeks.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/489374-atlanta-mayor-explains-decision-to-impose-stricter-restrictions-than
Maybe once we see what happens to cities that go "oh, our ICUs are full, maybe we should make people stay at home" and then try to handle the unavoidable next few doublings of cases that are already in the pipeline, people will get the picture that you do not want to get behind this thing. Too bad people will have to die to make the point.

Exactly. I think we will very soon see this with Florida, which has basically taken the stance that the US as a whole took a few weeks ago, which was just to close its borders and pretend like it was an external problem.

Here’s an interesting site that models when each state will hit that “oh, our ICUs are full” point of no return, based on each one’s current cases, their current shelter in place vs social distancing vs nothing policy, and their number of ICU beds:
https://covidactnow.org/
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 25, 2020, 09:09:36 PM
Here's a US county-by-county COVID-19 infection #'s map on Weather Underground.


https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map (https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?covid=1&lat=35.45&lon=-81&cm_ven=covid-map)

This map is really interesting. However, going by the numbers reported for my county, it's way out of date.  Our county has almost 10x the number of cases reported here (as of yesterday).


Sorry to hear that.  I had no way to check.  I like their weather info & assumed that they had the current COVID-19 data for their map.  Hopefully they'll improve the update accuracy soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 25, 2020, 09:15:38 PM
Two people died in my state, the first two victims. They were both in their 70s. Our state chief medical officer just said that the particularly high risk group is people over 65 and/or people with one or more co-morbidities. Of all the people in ICU, only one is in their 30s. However, our state's infection tracking also shows that the most popular age group to have the virus is those aged 25-29. This tells me that the virus certainly does become much more dangerous as your age advances.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: TeeNixx on March 25, 2020, 09:25:37 PM
Here is an article from The New Yorker on some lessons learned from treating the pandemic at the front lines.
It's a bit more uplifting than most. A glimmer of hope?

 https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/keeping-the-coronavirus-from-infecting-health-care-workers/amp
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DaMa on March 25, 2020, 10:17:37 PM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 26, 2020, 01:00:31 AM
A casual friend now has it. Her 80 yo father, with whom she has been staying, is hospitalized, on a respirator, and doctors are not saying good things.  His positive test is back.  Her's is still out, but it's pretty clear she has it.  She is in her late 20s or early 30s and said she has never experienced anything like this.  Her descriptions are terrifying and heartbreaking.  She's still at home, at least for now.

It also makes me irrationally (or perhaps it is entirely rational) at the people who continue to deny this.  And continue to defy the things that are going to help prevent some of this extreme suffering.  And make no mistake--it is *suffering*.  And the longer these selfish assholes keep going to the beach and church and restaurants, the longer the rest of us who are doing the right thing have to continue with these measures.

I'm on week 4 of near entire social isolation.  I started early because I could and it seemed like the right thing.  At the time, I didn't fear the disease, and I thought I was just doing it for the community.  Now, I'm also scared for myself and my family.  It's not the flu, even for young people.  It's not pneumonia.  It's cruel and painful and hope-stealing and awful in a way that I can't put in to words. 

And I feel like we are at the beginning of the suffering here in most of the US. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 26, 2020, 02:53:29 AM
A casual friend now has it. Her 80 yo father, with whom she has been staying, is hospitalized, on a respirator, and doctors are not saying good things.  His positive test is back.  Her's is still out, but it's pretty clear she has it.  She is in her late 20s or early 30s and said she has never experienced anything like this.  Her descriptions are terrifying and heartbreaking.  She's still at home, at least for now.

It also makes me irrationally (or perhaps it is entirely rational) at the people who continue to deny this.  And continue to defy the things that are going to help prevent some of this extreme suffering.  And make no mistake--it is *suffering*.  And the longer these selfish assholes keep going to the beach and church and restaurants, the longer the rest of us who are doing the right thing have to continue with these measures.

I'm on week 4 of near entire social isolation.  I started early because I could and it seemed like the right thing.  At the time, I didn't fear the disease, and I thought I was just doing it for the community.  Now, I'm also scared for myself and my family.  It's not the flu, even for young people.  It's not pneumonia.  It's cruel and painful and hope-stealing and awful in a way that I can't put in to words. 

And I feel like we are at the beginning of the suffering here in most of the US.

I think you're right, unfortunately. You have an awful pandemic situation, a terrible health system, and massive mis-management. We're all in lockdown or at some point in this nasty situation, but the world is looking at USA watching a train wreck happening. It's awful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 26, 2020, 03:34:32 AM
fox4news
9 hours ago


man took fish tank cleaner to prevent coronavirus infection and died ... Officials say both were taken to a Banner Health hospital for immediate treatment
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 26, 2020, 04:06:41 AM
Saw this earlier. Atlanta, GA's ICUs are reported to be at capacity. Atlanta is huge population center, and I haven't heard that they've been staying home for 2 weeks.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/489374-atlanta-mayor-explains-decision-to-impose-stricter-restrictions-than
Maybe once we see what happens to cities that go "oh, our ICUs are full, maybe we should make people stay at home" and then try to handle the unavoidable next few doublings of cases that are already in the pipeline, people will get the picture that you do not want to get behind this thing. Too bad people will have to die to make the point.

But.. there is already plenty of cities that can be an example.

Exactly this happened to Wuhan. Then it happened to Bergamo/Northern Italy. Then it happened to Madrid.

Why do people need the example to be in their own area to see the urgency even though they know cases are already doubling every few days in their area/state/country?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on March 26, 2020, 04:52:31 AM
See the contrarian thread, where lockdowns in affected states are considered “destroying society” and sick/old people should be thrown under the bus for their profit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 26, 2020, 05:17:20 AM
See the contrarian thread, where lockdowns in affected states are considered “destroying society” and sick/old people should be thrown under the bus for their profit.

Yup, I've read it.

It's interesting to me how the 'contrarians' assume that things will be business as usual if the government wouldn't mandate the interventions.

Airlines canceled flights before the governments mandated it, because people didn't want to fly anymore.

People in my country decided to take their kids out of school before the government closed the schools, because they were worried.

Many events were canceled before the government told them to cancel.

If the ICU's are full and the whatever % of the population that gets severely infected is in line at the hospital to try and get treatment, how on earth do these contrarians expect that the rest of society will live business as usual without crippling anxiety?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 26, 2020, 06:37:42 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?
I will not call myself a contrarian, I am a nurse and working but I can't help being thought of by people on the forum as a contrarian because my opinion differs?

I am not even going to comment on twisting pea words to mean some of us are indifferent to people dying.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 26, 2020, 06:41:21 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?
I will not call myself a contrarian, I am a nurse and working but I can't help being thought of by people on the forum as a contrarian because my opinion differs?

I am not even going to comment on twisting pea words to mean some of us are indifferent to people dying.

Crippling anxiety wouldn't have to take over if more responsibility were observed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Morning Glory on March 26, 2020, 07:11:27 AM
fox4news
9 hours ago


man took fish tank cleaner to prevent coronavirus infection and died ... Officials say both were taken to a Banner Health hospital for immediate treatment

Well, it stopped him from getting Corona virus....
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: iris lily on March 26, 2020, 07:23:07 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 26, 2020, 07:31:33 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

@DaMa Your son should know better, shame on him. STAY WHERE YOU ARE. Stay inside. Do not pack a bug out bag, because you are not going anywhere. Just stay put.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 26, 2020, 07:32:35 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?
Antarctica?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: runbikerun on March 26, 2020, 07:35:17 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 26, 2020, 07:38:13 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?
I will not call myself a contrarian, I am a nurse and working but I can't help being thought of by people on the forum as a contrarian because my opinion differs?

I am not even going to comment on twisting pea words to mean some of us are indifferent to people dying.

I think this was meant towards my comment and I'm not sure if you understood correctly.

What I meant to say there was that even if we didn't take any measures, the economy would suffer badly from this (see the examples about airlines/travel, schools, and events). We don't know how much though. Assuming that the pancemic would be worse if no measures were taken at all - for which I admittedly have no proof as most countries have taken measures - I would expect economic activity to drop as well as people will get more and more afraid to get infected, esp once hospitals would be unable to take up any more patients.

It is impossible to guess how much of an effect that would have on the economy ofcourse, as it would largely depend on individual human behavior which is harder to model than nationwide restrictions. Nobody knows how much economic activity would reduce when nothing is done.

So what I mean to say is that, if no measures are taken, the economy will still take a hit, we just don't know how big. It may even be (almost) as bad as the hit it's taken now, as the pandemic would be worse and go on much longer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 26, 2020, 07:39:23 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?


Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides. 


Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on March 26, 2020, 07:40:36 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Go camping for a while?

We conveniently set up most of a bugout bag just before the pandemic, thanks to a tornado catching us unprepared. The only things we'd need to add now are a tent and an air mattress. However, my in-laws live on a 100 acre farm that we could probably live on indefinitely if shit really hit the fan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 26, 2020, 07:42:50 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.

This is what I was trying to say, but runbikerun said it better!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 26, 2020, 07:51:20 AM
Oh for heaven's sake.

STOP THINKING ABOUT TRYING TO ESCAPE THE VIRUS. People like that are the ones that got shot on sight for breaking quarantine historically. Yes, you're scared. Everyone's scared. If you try to move from a hotspot to somewhere calmer, you're more likely to just spread the virus and make a new hotspot.

Stay home. Stay inside. No camping, no trips, no gallivanting around the area. Be bored and anxious and depressed.

But stay the fuck home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 26, 2020, 07:54:32 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.
eating

Well, as I stated in the contrarian thread, there seems to be at least a third option of quarantine for the elderly and vulnerable and school, University and work for the others. It has been carefully discussed in the German Bundestag yesterday as virologists have advised to do this.
There is a problem of treating the population unequally when doing this so alone for that reason it may not happen but it is discussed as a solution to the problem and it will be interesting to see what is decided.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 26, 2020, 07:57:35 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 26, 2020, 08:11:23 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?
I will not call myself a contrarian, I am a nurse and working but I can't help being thought of by people on the forum as a contrarian because my opinion differs?

I am not even going to comment on twisting pea words to mean some of us are indifferent to people dying.

I think this was meant towards my comment and I'm not sure if you understood correctly.

What I meant to say there was that even if we didn't take any measures, the economy would suffer badly from this (see the examples about airlines/travel, schools, and events). We don't know how much though. Assuming that the pancemic would be worse if no measures were taken at all - for which I admittedly have no proof as most countries have taken measures - I would expect economic activity to drop as well as people will get more and more afraid to get infected, esp once hospitals would be unable to take up any more patients.

It is impossible to guess how much of an effect that would have on the economy ofcourse, as it would largely depend on individual human behavior which is harder to model than nationwide restrictions. Nobody knows how much economic activity would reduce when nothing is done.

So what I mean to say is that, if no measures are taken, the economy will still take a hit, we just don't know how big. It may even be (almost) as bad as the hit it's taken now, as the pandemic would be worse and go on much longer.

Than you for elaboration on the meaning of your sentence.

To your finishing line:
I understand that the pandemic would be much worse but possibly shorter if nobody took safety precautions.
In Europe ( I should say England, France and Germany that's all I know for certain) it has been explained many times that we are trying to slow down the pandemic by doing the measures that have been put in place so that the health care system doesn't get overwhelmed as it would in the other scenario
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: runbikerun on March 26, 2020, 08:14:45 AM
Well, as I stated in the contrarian thread, there seems to be at least a third option of quarantine for the elderly and vulnerable and school, University and work for the others. It has been carefully discussed in the German Bundestag yesterday as virologists have advised to do this.
There is a problem of treating the population unequally when doing this so alone for that reason it may not happen but it is discussed as a solution to the problem and it will be interesting to see what is decided.

I've been trying to find details of this debate, but there's no mention of such a discussion in Deutsche Welle's summary of the Bundestag's session, and I cannot find the name of any virologists recommending this specific approach.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 26, 2020, 08:19:26 AM
Well, as I stated in the contrarian thread, there seems to be at least a third option of quarantine for the elderly and vulnerable and school, University and work for the others. It has been carefully discussed in the German Bundestag yesterday as virologists have advised to do this.
There is a problem of treating the population unequally when doing this so alone for that reason it may not happen but it is discussed as a solution to the problem and it will be interesting to see what is decided.

I've been trying to find details of this debate, but there's no mention of such a discussion in Deutsche Welle's summary of the Bundestag's session, and I cannot find the name of any virologists recommending this specific approach.

It wasn't Deutsche Welle but " Die Welt".
It is in German and I am no good at working computers. I will try to get the link in here and hope it works.

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article206803393/Restriktionen-wegen-Corona-Die-gezielte-Ungleichbehandlung-bahnt-sich-an.html?wtmc=socialmedia.whatsapp.shared.web
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 26, 2020, 09:01:00 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

As long as you isolate yourself/your children from any locals it makes no difference, does it? If it's really an isolated beach then there should be little risk of spread.

I've been doing road trips this week - there's no traffic and no one going anywhere. It's been enjoyable and liberating to be able to drive twisty roads which normally are clogged up at all times of day. It's just me and a +1 going there so I don't see how it changes anyone's risk of infection compared to the two of us at home all day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 26, 2020, 09:35:50 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.
eating

Well, as I stated in the contrarian thread, there seems to be at least a third option of quarantine for the elderly and vulnerable and school, University and work for the others. It has been carefully discussed in the German Bundestag yesterday as virologists have advised to do this.
There is a problem of treating the population unequally when doing this so alone for that reason it may not happen but it is discussed as a solution to the problem and it will be interesting to see what is decided.

That option also involves extensive testing from the get go. We failed at that option already.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 26, 2020, 09:46:37 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

As long as you isolate yourself/your children from any locals it makes no difference, does it? If it's really an isolated beach then there should be little risk of spread.

I've been doing road trips this week - there's no traffic and no one going anywhere. It's been enjoyable and liberating to be able to drive twisty roads which normally are clogged up at all times of day. It's just me and a +1 going there so I don't see how it changes anyone's risk of infection compared to the two of us at home all day.

Yeah, individually there's no problem doing that.  The problems happen when everyone has the same idea of heading out to the beach.  And if there's one family on the beach, then it's very likely that another family will see that idea and come out.  And then another.  And another.  And at some very rapidly approaching point, the beach is packed and everyone has caught the disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 26, 2020, 10:17:13 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

As long as you isolate yourself/your children from any locals it makes no difference, does it? If it's really an isolated beach then there should be little risk of spread.

I've been doing road trips this week - there's no traffic and no one going anywhere. It's been enjoyable and liberating to be able to drive twisty roads which normally are clogged up at all times of day. It's just me and a +1 going there so I don't see how it changes anyone's risk of infection compared to the two of us at home all day.
What happens when someone needs to use the bathroom?  Or when you need to stop at a gas station? 

Or like someone else already mentioned - if everyone else has the same idea?

I've seen plenty of isolated beach pics (because: we live near the beach), but also a lot of people going for hikes - when you literally cannot social distance if you have to pass someone going the other way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 26, 2020, 10:26:54 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

As long as you isolate yourself/your children from any locals it makes no difference, does it? If it's really an isolated beach then there should be little risk of spread.

I've been doing road trips this week - there's no traffic and no one going anywhere. It's been enjoyable and liberating to be able to drive twisty roads which normally are clogged up at all times of day. It's just me and a +1 going there so I don't see how it changes anyone's risk of infection compared to the two of us at home all day.




Day trips aren't the same as renting a cabin & moving in.  That will just deliver the virus to places that wouldn't have gotten it so soon.  Small towns have few Dr.'s and small hospitals, that normally only handle more basic medical needs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on March 26, 2020, 10:35:44 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.
“Bug out” to where?

Small tourist towns in the NC mtns are having problems with people from NY & other hot zones fleeing to vacation cabins and delivering CONVID-19 to the rural areas.  I've heard of at least one county banning short-term rentals to protect the local population from the virus.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides.
Same where I am.  I get it, the weather is lovely, the scenery is lovely, but the car parks are closed for a reason: please don't drive down here to have your kids play on the beach.  Stay the fuck home.

As long as you isolate yourself/your children from any locals it makes no difference, does it? If it's really an isolated beach then there should be little risk of spread.

I've been doing road trips this week - there's no traffic and no one going anywhere. It's been enjoyable and liberating to be able to drive twisty roads which normally are clogged up at all times of day. It's just me and a +1 going there so I don't see how it changes anyone's risk of infection compared to the two of us at home all day.

Yeah, individually there's no problem doing that.  The problems happen when everyone has the same idea of heading out to the beach.  And if there's one family on the beach, then it's very likely that another family will see that idea and come out.  And then another.  And another.  And at some very rapidly approaching point, the beach is packed and everyone has caught the disease.

This is exactly what happened in my country last weekend. Half the country decided to go to the beach and the national parks, resulting in packed beaches and national parks. Then the majors of those beach towns decided to shut down the parking lots and tell people to not come.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 26, 2020, 10:43:17 AM
You've only got to look at the global toilet paper weirdness to see how one person's bizarre idea causes everyone to behave the same way. We really are sheeple.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 26, 2020, 10:46:18 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.

I'm all for taking this thing seriously, but no need to blow things completely out of proportion (which gives the contrarians the upper hand in the debate). By all appearances, COVID-19 certainly is not worse than the 1918 flu pandemic, and no depression followed from it. This virus will pass, a lot of (mostly older) people will die, and life will march on. The only thing that would trigger the worst depression since the Black Death is an irrational response to the facts at hand (either from the general public, or from our elected leaders).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 26, 2020, 10:53:25 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.

I'm all for taking this thing seriously, but no need to blow things completely out of proportion (which gives the contrarians the upper hand in the debate). By all appearances, COVID-19 certainly is not worse than the 1918 flu pandemic, and no depression followed from it. This virus will pass, a lot of (mostly older) people will die, and life will march on. The only thing that would trigger the worst depression since the Black Death is an irrational response to the facts at hand (either from the general public, or from our elected leaders).


Totally incorrect. Whole cities in the USA alone lost ALL their workforce because everyone was sick. There were massive labour shortages. The only reason you don't hear more about the flu pandemic depression is because it was in 1918. You know, right around the time of the war. Bit hard to put a number on it.....
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DaMa on March 26, 2020, 11:03:37 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

It's not about escaping the virus.  He wants me to come to his house where I would have far more exposure to the virus that I do now, because he is working 4 days a week.  He's concerned about civil unrest.  He lives further away from the city than I do.

I meant my post be tongue-in-cheek.  It's "incredibly stupid."  Until it isn't.
 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 26, 2020, 11:18:21 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.

I'm all for taking this thing seriously, but no need to blow things completely out of proportion (which gives the contrarians the upper hand in the debate). By all appearances, COVID-19 certainly is not worse than the 1918 flu pandemic, and no depression followed from it. This virus will pass, a lot of (mostly older) people will die, and life will march on. The only thing that would trigger the worst depression since the Black Death is an irrational response to the facts at hand (either from the general public, or from our elected leaders).


Totally incorrect. Whole cities in the USA alone lost ALL their workforce because everyone was sick. There were massive labour shortages. The only reason you don't hear more about the flu pandemic depression is because it was in 1918. You know, right around the time of the war. Bit hard to put a number on it.....

I retract my statement that a depression didn't follow; apparently, U.S. GDP dropped 12% (10% being the cut-off). That being said, the flu was by all evidence much worse than coronavirus, especially since it attacked young people (the primary contributors to GDP) rather than older people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 26, 2020, 11:30:33 AM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.

I'm all for taking this thing seriously, but no need to blow things completely out of proportion (which gives the contrarians the upper hand in the debate). By all appearances, COVID-19 certainly is not worse than the 1918 flu pandemic, and no depression followed from it. This virus will pass, a lot of (mostly older) people will die, and life will march on. The only thing that would trigger the worst depression since the Black Death is an irrational response to the facts at hand (either from the general public, or from our elected leaders).


Totally incorrect. Whole cities in the USA alone lost ALL their workforce because everyone was sick. There were massive labour shortages. The only reason you don't hear more about the flu pandemic depression is because it was in 1918. You know, right around the time of the war. Bit hard to put a number on it.....

I retract my statement that a depression didn't follow; apparently, U.S. GDP dropped 12% (10% being the cut-off). That being said, the flu was by all evidence much worse than coronavirus, especially since it attacked young people (the primary contributors to GDP) rather than older people.

Actually, it attacked everyone. It killed a greater percentage of younger people because they were the ones travelling due to troop movements at the end of the war. They were the ones it got first, and they were the ones that brought it back to their home countries. They were also the ones at the tail end of rather a stressful situation, often poorly fed and maintained, with parasites and minor illnesses or wounded, and crowded into troop carriers/barracks and trains. It just wiped them out. They literally died like flies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on March 26, 2020, 11:39:29 AM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

It's not about escaping the virus.  He wants me to come to his house where I would have far more exposure to the virus that I do now, because he is working 4 days a week.  He's concerned about civil unrest.  He lives further away from the city than I do.

I meant my post be tongue-in-cheek.  It's "incredibly stupid."  Until it isn't.

If he’s working four days a week, and there’s civil unrest, he can’t save you even if you’re at his house because he will be at work. You’re right; your son’s thinking makes no sense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 26, 2020, 12:04:43 PM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

It's not about escaping the virus.  He wants me to come to his house where I would have far more exposure to the virus that I do now, because he is working 4 days a week.  He's concerned about civil unrest.  He lives further away from the city than I do.

I meant my post be tongue-in-cheek.  It's "incredibly stupid."  Until it isn't.

Oh, good lord. If we all bug out and what, head up north? We would only put the local residents and their smaller medical centers at risk. For example, Gaylord/Otsego County is already reporting multiple cases. I spent my childhood summers there, and the medical system is not up to handling this. Places like Grayling, Roscommon, Alpena, Cheboygan, and any place in the UP other than maybe Marquette are even less well equipped.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 26, 2020, 12:14:02 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/us/woman-coughed-on-produce-trnd/index.html

Seriously, wtf is wrong with people?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 26, 2020, 12:20:59 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/us/woman-coughed-on-produce-trnd/index.html

Seriously, wtf is wrong with people?
There has been an announcement here in the UK that it is a criminal offence to cough or spit at health care workers (well, anyone, but apparently health care workers have been targeted).

Wankers.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dresden on March 26, 2020, 12:30:34 PM
It's beyond ridiculous that such a small # of people that were either apathetic or idiotic are effectively the ultimate source of most US infections.  How could you even sleep at night knowing so many died or the lost their income because of selfish actions?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Boofinator on March 26, 2020, 12:42:43 PM
I half wonder if the first symptom of corona infection is stupidity (especially after the infected NBA player went around licking microphones).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on March 26, 2020, 12:52:53 PM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

It's not about escaping the virus.  He wants me to come to his house where I would have far more exposure to the virus that I do now, because he is working 4 days a week.  He's concerned about civil unrest.  He lives further away from the city than I do.

I meant my post be tongue-in-cheek.  It's "incredibly stupid."  Until it isn't.

Why does everyone think that Detroit will have civil unrest because of something? In 2003 there was a huge blackout. Most of the northeast quarter of the country lost power for several days. Everyone was worried that Detroit would go up in flames. I distinctly remember hearing afterwards that the average numbers of fires went DOWN. Crime went DOWN. And people helping people went UP.

DaMa, your son is not thinking clearly. Tell him so. You stay put. You're far safer holed up in your house than in his house. When he objects, send him some of the articles where it's reporting LEOs are getting infected. Because they are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 26, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
My son, a LEO, called me two days ago to tell me to pack a bug out bag.  I said as long as the grocery stores are open, we'll be fine.  At least until the hospitals start turning sick people away.

News today - the Metro Detroit hospitals are almost to capacity.  Boy, that was fast.

It's not about escaping the virus.  He wants me to come to his house where I would have far more exposure to the virus that I do now, because he is working 4 days a week.  He's concerned about civil unrest.  He lives further away from the city than I do.

I meant my post be tongue-in-cheek.  It's "incredibly stupid."  Until it isn't.

Why does everyone think that Detroit will have civil unrest because of something? In 2003 there was a huge blackout. Most of the northeast quarter of the country lost power for several days. Everyone was worried that Detroit would go up in flames. I distinctly remember hearing afterwards that the average numbers of fires went DOWN. Crime went DOWN. And people helping people went UP.

DaMa, your son is not thinking clearly. Tell him so. You stay put. You're far safer holed up in your house than in his house. When he objects, send him some of the articles where it's reporting LEOs are getting infected. Because they are.

YES. Thank you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: caracarn on March 26, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
You could of course  turn this around and ask as well:
How are the hysterical people expecting the contrarians to let crippling anxiety take over their lives? And what is it supposed to be good for?

You could ask that, but it would be a stupid thing to ask.

This is a straight choice between two options, both of which are really shitty:

1. Lock down hard and fast, and the economy takes a colossal hit. After several weeks, when new cases have slowed to a trickle, start gradually reopening society. Bring in a substantial surveillance apparatus using as much technology as possible to track and stamp down any new outbreaks as time goes on. In perhaps 18 months, mandatory vaccination for everyone who isn't immunocompromised, with absolutely zero tolerance for antivaxxers or religious exemptions. Don't like the vaccine? Fuck you, you're getting it.

2. Don't lock down, expect society to run as usual. The economy still takes a colossal hit, as anyone who can stay home will stay home, and hospitals become flooded with cases. With inadequate beds, medical personnel and equipment, people start dying in huge numbers. The economy goes down the toilet even faster. States start running out of coffins and storing corpses in industrial freezers. The medical system is reduced to rubble in a matter of months, as thousands of experienced professionals die or break down mentally. Six months later, society faces a totalled economy, a mountain of corpses, a thoroughly wrecked healthcare system and the worst death toll in centuries.

This is not a choice between the economy and the elderly, because there is no option that doesn't fuck the economy. Whatever we do, we're in for the worst depression since at least the 1930s, and quite possibly the worst since the Black Death. The only choice we get is roughly how many people die while the crash happens.
So I've been keeping up with several of the economists analyzing this and advocating action, and I would say most disagree with your final result.  The situation of 1 is expected to result in a recession of very short duration (6-9 months) because this is not a question of supply.  Robert Reich did a terrific job of explaining this scenario a few days ago.  This is the method we should pursue and which all leaders are.  The idiots (our president among them) is trying for 2 and that is one that most agree will result in a depression because it will cause waves of infection that recur and continue over an 18-24 month cycle and cause economic chaos throughout that time.

So the choices really seem to be, lockdown hard and once and do not relent too early and get through this in about 2 years total or come out too fast and drag the cycle on and look at multi year havoc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DeniseNJ on March 26, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Aldi opened its doors from 8:30 to 9:30 for thoses over 65.  So I waited until 9:30, wore gloves and a mask, got in and out as quickly as possible, tossed the gloves and mask away, and sprayed each item with a quick spritz of alcohol before putting it in my car, then I sanitized hands before getting back in my car.  First time I left the house in 2 weeks.  So sometimes you have to leave the house--store wouldn't deliever for 2 weeks.  But still making sure I don't catch or spread covid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: runbikerun on March 26, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
So I've been keeping up with several of the economists analyzing this and advocating action, and I would say most disagree with your final result.  The situation of 1 is expected to result in a recession of very short duration (6-9 months) because this is not a question of supply.  Robert Reich did a terrific job of explaining this scenario a few days ago.  This is the method we should pursue and which all leaders are.  The idiots (our president among them) is trying for 2 and that is one that most agree will result in a depression because it will cause waves of infection that recur and continue over an 18-24 month cycle and cause economic chaos throughout that time.

So the choices really seem to be, lockdown hard and once and do not relent too early and get through this in about 2 years total or come out too fast and drag the cycle on and look at multi year havoc.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any quick route back to economic growth. The scale and speed of this crash is staggering, and I'm not confident that it'll be a brisk recovery. 800,000 jobs in the US were lost in a little over a year back in the late 2000s; there were 3.2 million job losses this week. A whole range of businesses are going to be in severe trouble with or without government intervention, and simply will not survive in their current form for more than a few weeks at this rate. And restrictions will be loosened piecemeal rather than all at once. And supply chains for a host of industries will have to be redesigned and reorganised. And a whole swathe of people in precarious industries will, I suspect, become hellbent on insulating themselves against future crashes and disasters. This is the kind of event that permanently alters cultures, and a lot of freelancers who just saw a year's work vanish in days (and formerly employed workers who are now scrambling to pay for essentials) will respond to a recovery by piling money into an emergency fund rather than going to restaurants and buying cars.

I do think you're right that we'll see the beginnings of a recovery in about two years, but it will be slower and from a lower baseline, and I'm not sure we'll ever go back to the way things were six months ago.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 26, 2020, 03:11:28 PM
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any quick route back to economic growth. The scale and speed of this crash is staggering, and I'm not confident that it'll be a brisk recovery. 800,000 jobs in the US were lost in a little over a year back in the late 2000s; there were 3.2 million job losses this week. A whole range of businesses are going to be in severe trouble with or without government intervention, and simply will not survive in their current form for more than a few weeks at this rate. And restrictions will be loosened piecemeal rather than all at once. And supply chains for a host of industries will have to be redesigned and reorganised. And a whole swathe of people in precarious industries will, I suspect, become hellbent on insulating themselves against future crashes and disasters. This is the kind of event that permanently alters cultures, and a lot of freelancers who just saw a year's work vanish in days (and formerly employed workers who are now scrambling to pay for essentials) will respond to a recovery by piling money into an emergency fund rather than going to restaurants and buying cars.

I do think you're right that we'll see the beginnings of a recovery in about two years, but it will be slower and from a lower baseline, and I'm not sure we'll ever go back to the way things were six months ago.

Yes, the worst is yet to come.  We have a long hard road ahead of us to recover from this.  Considering how early we are in the course of the coronavirus spreading through the U.S., I except things to get much worse and for stocks to hit new lows compared to the last week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 26, 2020, 03:13:22 PM
…. And a whole swathe of people in precarious industries will, I suspect, become hellbent on insulating themselves against future crashes and disasters. This is the kind of event that permanently alters cultures, and a lot of freelancers who just saw a year's work vanish in days (and formerly employed workers who are now scrambling to pay for essentials) will respond to a recovery by piling money into an emergency fund rather than going to restaurants and buying cars.

I do think you're right that we'll see the beginnings of a recovery in about two years, but it will be slower and from a lower baseline, and I'm not sure we'll ever go back to the way things were six months ago.

I was a kid when the Arab Oil embargo of 1973 took place.   Gasoline prices doubled overnight.   Long, hours long lines of people waiting for gasoline.

America's love for big cars that guzzled gasoline was destroyed forever.

And here we are now, in the land of $80,000 pickup trucks, which are NEVER used as trucks, and which burn gasoline with reckless abandon.   And it's not like that was the last time gasoline prices doubled overnight since 1973.

Remember, no one ever lost money underestimating the American public.

Some people will get the savings religion.   A portion of those will actually continue to save big time after 6 months to a year.
But most will go right back to what they were doing.    I've seen it before and fully expect to see it again.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on March 26, 2020, 03:54:49 PM
@American GenX  That's the thing I think a lot of people don't realize - we're only at about 0.025% (250 per million) of the US population confirmed infected - even if the reported numbers are low, there is almost certainly a long way to go here. And hospitals in some areas you might expect and some you probably wouldn't are already near capacity.

0.025% is a good number if you're talking mutual fund expense ratios. Pretty scary when you've got people out there thinking we'll be pretty much back to normal within a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on March 26, 2020, 03:59:53 PM
We beat China in confirmed cases! Woot! We're #1!!!! SUCK IT, CHINA!!! #murica

https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on March 26, 2020, 04:41:46 PM
^In LA crime is already down by 6%. Although that may be due to fewer arrests being made and more people at home. But they expect domestic violence crimes to be higher because of so much time being isolated with "loved ones".
Here in SB we are seeing an uptick in youth gang activity because: no school.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 26, 2020, 05:10:48 PM
We beat China in confirmed cases! Woot! We're #1!!!! SUCK IT, CHINA!!! #murica

https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE (https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE)




MAGA BABY! 

Who said Trump's an unfit leader? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 26, 2020, 05:44:28 PM
One province over a lady was arrested and placed in a holding cell for violating her self isolation order. 

"Police told CBC News on Tuesday their primary goal was to educate people on the need to stay home and arrests would only come if someone refused to comply.

In this case, police said education wasn't enough."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/corner-brook-woman-arrested-covid-19-1.5509212

There are a lot of people not following the quarantine.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to a full ban on leaving the home.

I was speaking with a colleague in Corner Brook a few mins ago who has some insider info.  Apparently the lady was in a cab and told the driver that she was supposed to be self isolating.  He stopped cab, told her to get out, and called police.  Police arrived to assess the situation and, as she stomped up the road away from them, explained in explicit detail the manner in which they could fuck themselves and their mother.

And they released her from custody on Wednesday only to rearrest her on Thursday. FFS  Just an edit.  Apparently the women involved has a history of mental illness.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/rnc-public-health-arrest-isolate-quarantine-1.5510514
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 26, 2020, 06:29:58 PM
We beat China in confirmed cases! Woot! We're #1!!!! SUCK IT, CHINA!!! #murica

https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE (https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE)




MAGA BABY! 

Who said Trump's an unfit leader?

Trump finally made America the greatest at something!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 26, 2020, 06:51:28 PM
We beat China in confirmed cases! Woot! We're #1!!!! SUCK IT, CHINA!!! #murica

https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE (https://www.axios.com/united-states-most-coronavirus-cases-52b6d1b5-bc65-4b86-a42d-712cf9e3b556.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3rS4WnRZ9hap6VmLCUa7E1x6hlTPcW7K67iHxotUoEMRvDTCGQaXG8fqE)




MAGA BABY! 

Who said Trump's an unfit leader?

Trump finally made America the greatest at something!

And **so** sportsmanlike, too!

Even though the Chinese cheated and got at least a month's lead on us and tested gobs and gobs of people to get their count up, Trump made sure they retained a sporting chance by barely testing anyone in our country.

But with good ole American hard work and ingenuity, we still got to #1

#1 !!!

#1 !!!

#1 !!!

MAGA for the win!       

And that #DieForTheDow inspiration!   Simply brilliant!    Instead of letting old and already ill people die expensive deaths on medicare after years of draining down the social security trust fund, they're going to let them die now at their own expense.   
My astonishment knows no bounds.

And since those folks weren't productive, i.e., making money by working for him and his rich friends, which means they should have been done away with anyway, our productivity stats per capita should go up, too!   

PS -- all that is sarcasm.  It's not always easy to tell the difference anymore between biting sarcasm using ridiculous, over-the-top policy suggestions and actual positions put forward by Republicans in office anymore.

Haven't seen them realize our productivity stats per capita would go up, but as for the rest, yep, we have elected sociopaths who think this is good policy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 26, 2020, 08:24:44 PM
Is this what he meant when he said that we would be tired of winning?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 26, 2020, 09:25:02 PM
So I've been keeping up with several of the economists analyzing this and advocating action, and I would say most disagree with your final result.  The situation of 1 is expected to result in a recession of very short duration (6-9 months) because this is not a question of supply.  Robert Reich did a terrific job of explaining this scenario a few days ago.  This is the method we should pursue and which all leaders are.  The idiots (our president among them) is trying for 2 and that is one that most agree will result in a depression because it will cause waves of infection that recur and continue over an 18-24 month cycle and cause economic chaos throughout that time.

So the choices really seem to be, lockdown hard and once and do not relent too early and get through this in about 2 years total or come out too fast and drag the cycle on and look at multi year havoc.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any quick route back to economic growth. The scale and speed of this crash is staggering, and I'm not confident that it'll be a brisk recovery. 800,000 jobs in the US were lost in a little over a year back in the late 2000s; there were 3.2 million job losses this week. A whole range of businesses are going to be in severe trouble with or without government intervention, and simply will not survive in their current form for more than a few weeks at this rate. And restrictions will be loosened piecemeal rather than all at once. And supply chains for a host of industries will have to be redesigned and reorganised. And a whole swathe of people in precarious industries will, I suspect, become hellbent on insulating themselves against future crashes and disasters. This is the kind of event that permanently alters cultures, and a lot of freelancers who just saw a year's work vanish in days (and formerly employed workers who are now scrambling to pay for essentials) will respond to a recovery by piling money into an emergency fund rather than going to restaurants and buying cars.

I do think you're right that we'll see the beginnings of a recovery in about two years, but it will be slower and from a lower baseline, and I'm not sure we'll ever go back to the way things were six months ago.

Something to consider is that in theory, most of those job losses were temporary here and many claims were reduction in hours/etc.

If say 90% of those 3.2M were reduction in hours then if the entire situation happens very quickly, then they might regain their hours quickly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on March 26, 2020, 11:37:55 PM
A casual friend now has it. Her 80 yo father, with whom she has been staying, is hospitalized, on a respirator, and doctors are not saying good things.  His positive test is back.  Her's is still out, but it's pretty clear she has it.  She is in her late 20s or early 30s and said she has never experienced anything like this.  Her descriptions are terrifying and heartbreaking.  She's still at home, at least for now.

It also makes me irrationally (or perhaps it is entirely rational) at the people who continue to deny this.  And continue to defy the things that are going to help prevent some of this extreme suffering.  And make no mistake--it is *suffering*.  And the longer these selfish assholes keep going to the beach and church and restaurants, the longer the rest of us who are doing the right thing have to continue with these measures.

I'm on week 4 of near entire social isolation.  I started early because I could and it seemed like the right thing.  At the time, I didn't fear the disease, and I thought I was just doing it for the community.  Now, I'm also scared for myself and my family.  It's not the flu, even for young people.  It's not pneumonia.  It's cruel and painful and hope-stealing and awful in a way that I can't put in to words. 

And I feel like we are at the beginning of the suffering here in most of the US.

I think you're right, unfortunately. You have an awful pandemic situation, a terrible health system, and massive mis-management. We're all in lockdown or at some point in this nasty situation, but the world is looking at USA watching a train wreck happening. It's awful.

I know have a second acquaintance with a presumtive case.  Another relative young person (probably early 30s).  Went to the ER, has pneumonia, awaiting Covid test results.

~~~~

And the notion that we should violate the olds and infirms?  These are young healthy women.  Not overweight, no major health conditions of which I'm aware.  Yet these women are incredibly sick.  They will likely be in no condition to go to a workplace for weeks.   That's not going to have an economic impact?  Of course it is.  And that's sort of a best case scenario. 

   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 27, 2020, 12:03:10 AM
I know two people who have it for sure.

One is a skilled nurse who, thankfully, hasn't had to be hospitalized.   She feels miserable, though.   But our testing regimen is so bad that she hasn't been tested for it because they couldn't spare the tests, so she isn't in the test group.

The second is a lady in our old neighborhood.   She's been hospitalized and her husband can't go see her because she's isolated.   I saw him yesterday while we were picking up stuff from the old house and asked him (from 20 feet away) how she was doing.   It's obvious he has no hope left.   I don't know whether she's been officially counted or not.



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on March 27, 2020, 06:16:56 AM
So I've been keeping up with several of the economists analyzing this and advocating action, and I would say most disagree with your final result.  The situation of 1 is expected to result in a recession of very short duration (6-9 months) because this is not a question of supply.  Robert Reich did a terrific job of explaining this scenario a few days ago.  This is the method we should pursue and which all leaders are.  The idiots (our president among them) is trying for 2 and that is one that most agree will result in a depression because it will cause waves of infection that recur and continue over an 18-24 month cycle and cause economic chaos throughout that time.

So the choices really seem to be, lockdown hard and once and do not relent too early and get through this in about 2 years total or come out too fast and drag the cycle on and look at multi year havoc.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any quick route back to economic growth. The scale and speed of this crash is staggering, and I'm not confident that it'll be a brisk recovery. 800,000 jobs in the US were lost in a little over a year back in the late 2000s; there were 3.2 million job losses this week.

That's not 3.2 million lost jobs, that's 3.2 million unemployment claims.  Governor declares a state of emergence, shuts down all restaurants, bars, stores, gathering places etc. for a few weeks, those people now file for unemployment since they won't get paid and (like you said) the businesses can't afford to pay them.  Multiply that by 50 states.  Do you really think that once the restrictions are lifted, those places won't open back up?  Nobody's ever going to a bar or restaurant again?  No, not everything's going to come back right away, but those numbers are so big due to a government mandated temporary closure, not because the jobs disappeared. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on March 27, 2020, 09:41:15 AM
Here is more alarming  irrationality from a high-ranking Mexican official.

NY Times
March 26



“The majority [of those infected] are wealthy people. If you are rich, you are at risk. If you are poor, no...We poor people, we are immune.” Puebla Gov. Miguel Barbosa

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PDXTabs on March 27, 2020, 09:52:01 AM
That's not 3.2 million lost jobs, that's 3.2 million unemployment claims.

Additionally, in some (most?, all?) states you can claim unemployment even if you are still working. For example, if your 40 hour a week job got cut to 8 hours a week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Cassie on March 27, 2020, 11:45:02 AM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: martyconlonontherun on March 27, 2020, 11:50:26 AM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.
I think I read someone said 75% will never reopen. But I assume that is under the same name. I'm sure owners will reopen after bankruptcy or new people will open restaurants in replace of old ones. Yes, less people will be eating out, but rents will also go down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on March 27, 2020, 11:50:35 AM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.

That's okay about the restaurants, though, according to Trump:

“I’ve heard 3 percent could be lost, and you could go as high as 10 or 11 percent, but they’ll all come back in one form of another. Might be a different restaurant. But it’s gonna be a great business for a lot of people. We’re making it easy for people — look, what we’re doing in terms of loans, what we’re doing in terms of salaries, they’ll all come back. It may not be the same restaurant, it may not be the same ownership, but they’ll all be back.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 27, 2020, 12:04:42 PM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.

That's okay about the restaurants, though, according to Trump:

“I’ve heard 3 percent could be lost, and you could go as high as 10 or 11 percent, but they’ll all come back in one form of another. Might be a different restaurant. But it’s gonna be a great business for a lot of people. We’re making it easy for people — look, what we’re doing in terms of loans, what we’re doing in terms of salaries, they’ll all come back. It may not be the same restaurant, it may not be the same ownership, but they’ll all be back.”


So, why do we need to bail out the airlines & cruise lines again, and resorts?  They'll all come back in some form or fashion. 



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on March 27, 2020, 12:05:46 PM
They'll all be back by Easter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on March 27, 2020, 12:10:15 PM
They'll all be back by Easter.

One of these Easters anyway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 27, 2020, 12:24:46 PM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.

That's okay about the restaurants, though, according to Trump:

“I’ve heard 3 percent could be lost, and you could go as high as 10 or 11 percent, but they’ll all come back in one form of another. Might be a different restaurant. But it’s gonna be a great business for a lot of people. We’re making it easy for people — look, what we’re doing in terms of loans, what we’re doing in terms of salaries, they’ll all come back. It may not be the same restaurant, it may not be the same ownership, but they’ll all be back.”


So, why do we need to bail out the airlines & cruise lines again, and resorts?  They'll all come back in some form or fashion.

Because ultra-rich people who buy and sell congressmen don't own stock in the neighborhood restaurant, but they do own stock in the big businesses.

That's why.

Follow the money.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ender on March 27, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
Here is more alarming  irrationality from a high-ranking Mexican official.

NY Times
March 26



“The majority [of those infected] are wealthy people. If you are rich, you are at risk. If you are poor, no...We poor people, we are immune.” Puebla Gov. Miguel Barbosa

Depending on how strongly correlated wealth and life expectancy... that might not be so far from the truth as far as averages go?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Telecaster on March 27, 2020, 06:11:11 PM
Well, as I stated in the contrarian thread, there seems to be at least a third option of quarantine for the elderly and vulnerable and school, University and work for the others. It has been carefully discussed in the German Bundestag yesterday as virologists have advised to do this.
There is a problem of treating the population unequally when doing this so alone for that reason it may not happen but it is discussed as a solution to the problem and it will be interesting to see what is decided.

I'm not sure that's a viable option for practical reasons.  Major US airlines had already stopped flying to China before the travel restrictions were announced.  Domestically, where there are almost no travel restrictions, yet airlines are canceling flights and those that aren't canceled are flying virtually empty.  In Seattle where I live many restaurants had already closed for lack of business--some permanently--before any restrictions on public gatherings were in effect.  Boeing factory workers who are deemed essential almost revolted until Boeing wound up closing down the lines anyway.  The economy will not recover until people feel like this issue is under control. 

One proposal is to protect the more vulnerable while everyone else goes about their business.  How does this work?  A large percentage of people over 65 live in multi-generational households.  If grandma can't live at home, what do we do with her?  Do we have a safe place for her to live?   And what if grandma provides a caregiver role for the grandkids?  Like say, when mom is at work.   Who takes care of the kids now?  What if grandma is the only caregiver?   

And what's the sequelae?  Can you say for sure it is a good idea to let this thing burn itself out? 

The only rationale response is what we are sort of doing:  Clamp things down and buy time until we can do widespread testing and contact tracing and work on treatments and vaccines.  The economy will never recover until we do those things.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on March 28, 2020, 02:30:38 AM
@Telecaster
Since Wednesday when this was first discussed (to my knowledge) there have been more politicians talking about this but keeping in mind this could happen earliest at the end of April. Ultimately that seems the only way? I am not certain how they are doing this in China?
It also is possibly a different situation in Germany as we started testing much earlier than the US, have tested more people per 1000 inhabitants and have according to different sources 3-4x more ICU and general hospital beds available (during normal times).
How this develops remains to be seen, though
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on March 28, 2020, 05:12:32 AM
I would guess that many small businesses will never reopen. Restaurants in particular don’t have a huge profit margin.

That's okay about the restaurants, though, according to Trump:

“I’ve heard 3 percent could be lost, and you could go as high as 10 or 11 percent, but they’ll all come back in one form of another. Might be a different restaurant. But it’s gonna be a great business for a lot of people. We’re making it easy for people — look, what we’re doing in terms of loans, what we’re doing in terms of salaries, they’ll all come back. It may not be the same restaurant, it may not be the same ownership, but they’ll all be back.”


So, why do we need to bail out the airlines & cruise lines again, and resorts?  They'll all come back in some form or fashion.

Because ultra-rich people who buy and sell congressmen don't own stock in the neighborhood restaurant, but they do own stock in the big businesses.

That's why.

Follow the money.

Yep. Pretty much.

To be fair, in normal times if an airline went bankrupt (which many have) they would keep operating, restructure, and continue on. Or they would get bought out by a competitor or outside investor who sees a good deal. All of those things could still happen. There's plenty of money on the sidelines and I'm sure for a 50-80% discount over what they were trading a few months ago, someone would be willing to buy a cruise line, airline, hotel chain, etc.. But that would also mean a lot of shareholders lose everything, probably some bondholders, and lots of others down the line who extended credit to these companies in one form or another would suffer large losses and also go out of business. It's all interconnected and while I loathe the idea of spending hundreds of billions to rescue companies, I do recognize that the alternative would probably be worse. This is not a 20-30% drop in sales, it's a 90%+ drop in sales. No business can survive that for long, even if they start laying people off left and right. There are still fixed expenses that they're contractually obligated to pay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on March 28, 2020, 06:18:10 AM
In addition, the government more or less prohibited the airlines from operating most of their routes.  In some cases regulation increased, in other cases certain passengers were banned, in yet other cases airlines can no longer operate specific flights.  It seems reasonable the airlines have a claim against the public and their officials.  I'm of the opinion many other businesses also have claims, however not everyone has clout -- and this is where the real travesty is in all of this.
 
Aviation should be treated like a public service, like a fire department or the public water utility.  It is too vulnerable to the irrationality of civilization, hysteria, war, terrorism, etc., to be a long term viable market based entity.  Yes, I think the airlines should be nationalized.

Once this is all over and the fear is reduced, there will be less flights available, more seats crammed into already tight spaces, airline travel will become more expensive and the customer service will be worse (if that is even imaginable).   Have fun.

Getting back to the original post in this thread.  There has been a lot of talk on social media apparently (aside from this forum I don't participate) about people not taking COVID-19 "seriously".  My feeling is this type of thought process, this mindset, is irrational. 

I had a rough childhood growing up.  The byproduct of two narcissistic and alcoholic parents, I had a lot of hysteria and hypochondria.  There were many months of wasted medical tests, irrational fear, depression, over and over again.  I learned to not think that way, but honestly this took years.  I'm a better person for it as the hypochondria and narcissistic thinking is a very self destructive process and also hurt those around me.  I see A LOT of this type of behavior in society now, even in our politicians and policies.  One of the most important things I learned reflecting about my own behavior is that when hysterical, reason, science and rationality are irrelevant.  People will destroy everything they know and have to satisfy their subconscious demons. 

Statistics show healthy people are rarely effected by this virus other than at most mild symptoms.   For healthy people, this virus is literally as risky as a flu and nothing more.  The majority of people in America are clearly unhealthy and have multiple pre-existing conditions (most chronic illness is preventable and reversible).   For decades people in America have not taken their health seriously, obvious examples are obesity, diet, mental health and drug/alcohol addiction.  All of a sudden people are taking their health seriously?  I'm not buying what you are selling.   People are reacting because of irrational fear, and when people do that they are very likely to make bad choices (from my own experience).

A morbidly obese person in a grocery store wearing a mask stocking up on unhealthy frozen foods and toilet paper and practicing social distancing is not someone who is taking their health seriously.   Meanwhile, the majority of healthy people will get exposed to this virus, infected, develop immunity and not even know anything happened.

The science behind quarantines, lockdowns and social distancing is dubious.  There are studies that show the virus is already widespread.  There are studies that show there is not much health benefit from the catastrophic economic damage we are doing.  In addition, those that support the lockdowns and quarantines all but ignore the mental health ramifications, the poverty and all the other social ills that go along with these policies -- but again, it's impossible to reason with hysteria (I know from experience).  We won't know until there is a lot more testing, so current policy is based on theory, fear and previous fatality estimates that were likely much too high -- by orders of magnitude.

We are in this situation because people didn't take their health seriously.  People don't eat healthy, they don't exercise, they don't deal with conditions they already have.  We don't have nearly the amount of ICU facilities as Europe -- and now all of us will suffer significantly for years to come because people have not taken their health and healthcare seriously.  Many people are sitting ducks for this illness because of their previous inability to take their health seriously, and now we all have to pay for their immaturity. Many people will have their lives turned upside down even though the virus will never cause them symptoms.

On the extreme I think it can be argued this is not a public health crisis.  This is a crisis for those already ill, but those that are already ill are taking the rest of society down with them.

So don't give me that "not taking COVID-19 seriously" crap.  I've taken my physical and mental health extremely seriously and because of that I am not concerned about this virus at all.  I am however very concerned about the irrational psychology and the future effects as a consequence of such behavior.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on March 28, 2020, 08:05:18 AM

On the extreme I think it can be argued this is not a public health crisis.  This is a crisis for those already ill, but those that are already ill are taking the rest of society down with them.

So don't give me that "not taking COVID-19 seriously" crap.  I've taken my physical and mental health extremely seriously and because of that I am not concerned about this virus at all.  I am however very concerned about the irrational psychology and the future effects as a consequence of such behavior.

It's sadly not only unhealthy people that die, (though they are at higher risk) but also people who are simply sick or older or younger.
The other point is that death skyrocket in percentages when hospitals become full, because people don't have access to the equipment that would save their lives.

Linked a graphic from https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus  (Following Europe's CDC numbers)

Note China, South Corea and Japan, VS Europe, IRAN ... It's a pretty visible and aggressively clear way of visualizing what concrete and effective measures does to the death rate. (SK and China put in place VERY severe restrictions, and contact chaining.)

(In the link, you can watch the video as it shows time advancing. It's pretty cool.)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on March 28, 2020, 08:44:49 AM

On the extreme I think it can be argued this is not a public health crisis.  This is a crisis for those already ill, but those that are already ill are taking the rest of society down with them.

So don't give me that "not taking COVID-19 seriously" crap.  I've taken my physical and mental health extremely seriously and because of that I am not concerned about this virus at all.  I am however very concerned about the irrational psychology and the future effects as a consequence of such behavior.

It's sadly not only unhealthy people that die, (though they are at higher risk) but also people who are simply sick or older or younger.
The other point is that death skyrocket in percentages when hospitals become full, because people don't have access to the equipment that would save their lives.

Linked a graphic from https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus  (Following Europe's CDC numbers)

Note China, South Corea and Japan, VS Europe, IRAN ... It's a pretty visible and aggressively clear way of visualizing what concrete and effective measures does to the death rate. (SK and China put in place VERY severe restrictions, and contact chaining.)

(In the link, you can watch the video as it shows time advancing. It's pretty cool.)

Understood, and the graph is very cool. 

I'm not aware of any deaths in younger healthy people.  There have been one or two anecdotal stories in the news about the death of teenagers, but without data I view them with skepticism.  Also, a typical influenza strain kills young people every year, sadly even those that have been immunized. 

Unlike H1N1 which typically killed younger people at much higher rates than the elderly.  I've read this is because elderly probably had an immunity, but that is a theory I suspect. 

The testimonials and anecdotal stories I meet with great skepticism.  The New York Times had an opinion piece published today written by one of their staff.  A typical story to scare and intimidate, we should take the virus "seriously".  The author claimed to be "generally" healthy, however vaguely admitted to smoking, but he quit some time ago he said.  Looking at his pictures online, he is not a healthy BMI, so being a middle aged person he may very well  be hypertensive.  Hypertensive medications, especially ACE inhibitors have been potentially shown to lead to respiratory problems with COVID-19.

One of the most effective ways to deal with hypochondria is to look at science and data.  Testimonials and emotional thoughts are the opposite of reality, so I've learned to discount them as much as possible for my own serenity.  Humans are notoriously very bad at assessing risk -- hysterical humans even more so. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: beltim on March 28, 2020, 08:52:07 AM
Statistics show healthy people are rarely effected by this virus other than at most mild symptoms.   For healthy people, this virus is literally as risky as a flu and nothing more.  The majority of people in America are clearly unhealthy and have multiple pre-existing conditions (most chronic illness is preventable and reversible).   For decades people in America have not taken their health seriously, obvious examples are obesity, diet, mental health and drug/alcohol addiction.  All of a sudden people are taking their health seriously?  I'm not buying what you are selling.   People are reacting because of irrational fear, and when people do that they are very likely to make bad choices (from my own experience).

This is false.  Disseminating this sort of false information is dangerous - you are literally advocating that people put their lives at risk because you are repeating false information.

Let's put aside the fact that the death rate from COVID-19 is 10-20 times higher than that of the flu1.  Let's talk about how hospitalizations from COVID-19 are also 5-20 higher than that of the flu and not just affecting those with ores-existing confitions2.  Let's talk about how hospitalizations in the US are hitting every adult age group without a big difference in prevalence3. And how it's about twice as infectious4, which since that's an exponential means that it runs through the population way more than twice as fast.  Let's talk about how those who are hospitalized (remember, at 5-20 times the rate of flu) are twice as likely to need to be in the ICU and on mechanical ventilation even compared to a "bad" flu5.
Let's talk about how all the things you're saying about COVID-19 being more likely to hit those with preexisting health conditions are also true for the flu6.  Let's talk about how Olympic athletes are saying it's the worst disease they've ever had7 and need to be hospitalized8.

This disease does not only affect the healthy.  Unless you're saying multiple Olympic athletes aren't healthy?

There's a reason people are saying that you're not taking this seriously.  You think you're invulnerable, but you're not.  You think this isn't a big deal, but it is. 

I don't have time to do the same breakdown for your other wrong points, but I assure you that the science behind quarantines, lockdowns, and social distancing is very well validated.  Look at different countries responses to this, the relative infection rates, and the relative death rates, and you'll see the real-world efficacy of different measure for this very virus.


1https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/
2 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
3 https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-young-people-hospitalized-covid-19-chart/
4 https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html
5 https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/16/coronavirus-model-shows-hospitals-what-to-expect/  and https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201401-0066LE
6 https://www.medpagetoday.com/resource-centers/contemporary-approaches-influenza-a-b/icu-admission-and-mortality-during-flu-season/2391
7 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/olympic-gold-medalist-van-der-burgh-battling-covid-19/1775843
8 https://www.aipsmedia.com/index.html?page=artdetail&art=27586&CoronavirusItalyEdoardo-Melloni
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 09:09:59 AM
Yes, @egillespie ,  the asthma I've had since I was a child (when I most assuredly was not obese) is a clear sign of a moral failing in me.

You're right, I deserve to die early.    #DieForTheDow!

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on March 28, 2020, 09:11:32 AM
To join in on Beltim's point: (Reference point 3) https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-young-people-hospitalized-covid-19-chart/

Note the ICU admissions. Those are the ones that will turn into deaths if the hospitals are overwhelmed. Which is why the distancing measures are so important. They are surviving now, but if the hospitals are full, not only would they die, but every other injury/illness that requires the same beds/machines/care will also increase in mortality.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: beltim on March 28, 2020, 09:14:55 AM
To join in on Beltim's point: (Reference point 3) https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-young-people-hospitalized-covid-19-chart/

Note the ICU admissions. Those are the ones that will turn into deaths if the hospitals are overwhelmed. Which is why the distancing measures are so important. They are surviving now, but if the hospitals are full, not only would they die, but every other injury/illness that requires the same beds/machines/care will also increase in mortality.

Good addition!  I meant to include that and forgot about it while getting sources.  This is such a huge, huge critical point that is the basic reason for social distancing and why "flattening the curve" saves so many lives.

Also, good graphic from your earlier post.  That's such a good illustration of how we can look in near-real time how different measures stack up in efficacy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on March 28, 2020, 09:23:19 AM
Statistics show healthy people are rarely effected by this virus other than at most mild symptoms.   For healthy people, this virus is literally as risky as a flu and nothing more.  The majority of people in America are clearly unhealthy and have multiple pre-existing conditions (most chronic illness is preventable and reversible).   For decades people in America have not taken their health seriously, obvious examples are obesity, diet, mental health and drug/alcohol addiction.  All of a sudden people are taking their health seriously?  I'm not buying what you are selling.   People are reacting because of irrational fear, and when people do that they are very likely to make bad choices (from my own experience).

This is false.  Disseminating this sort of false information is dangerous - you are literally advocating that people put their lives at risk because you are repeating false information.

Let's put aside the fact that the death rate from COVID-19 is 10-20 times higher than that of the flu1.  Let's talk about how hospitalizations from COVID-19 are also 5-20 higher than that of the flu and not just affecting those with ores-existing confitions2.  Let's talk about how hospitalizations in the US are hitting every adult age group without a big difference in prevalence3. And how it's about twice as infectious4, which since that's an exponential means that it runs through the population way more than twice as fast.  Let's talk about how those who are hospitalized (remember, at 5-20 times the rate of flu) are twice as likely to need to be in the ICU and on mechanical ventilation even compared to a "bad" flu5.
Let's talk about how all the things you're saying about COVID-19 being more likely to hit those with preexisting health conditions are also true for the flu6.  Let's talk about how Olympic athletes are saying it's the worst disease they've ever had7 and need to be hospitalized8.

This disease does not only affect the healthy.  Unless you're saying multiple Olympic athletes aren't healthy?

There's a reason people are saying that you're not taking this seriously.  You think you're invulnerable, but you're not.  You think this isn't a big deal, but it is. 

I don't have time to do the same breakdown for your other wrong points, but I assure you that the science behind quarantines, lockdowns, and social distancing is very well validated.  Look at different countries responses to this, the relative infection rates, and the relative death rates, and you'll see the real-world efficacy of different measure for this very virus.


1https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/
2 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
3 https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-young-people-hospitalized-covid-19-chart/
4 https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html
5 https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/16/coronavirus-model-shows-hospitals-what-to-expect/  and https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201401-0066LE
6 https://www.medpagetoday.com/resource-centers/contemporary-approaches-influenza-a-b/icu-admission-and-mortality-during-flu-season/2391
7 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/olympic-gold-medalist-van-der-burgh-battling-covid-19/1775843
8 https://www.aipsmedia.com/index.html?page=artdetail&art=27586&CoronavirusItalyEdoardo-Melloni

Much of the data you presented I will disagree with.  Regarding the case rate, there are obviously many more people infected with the virus than just those that have tested positive.  So any data regarding mortality that only deals with positive cases is clearly flawed, probably by several magnitudes, if not more.

As more people are tested, the virus "appears" to become less deadly.  Most people that have COVID-19 are asymptomatic and are never tested.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/27/821958435/why-death-rates-from-coronavirus-can-be-deceiving

Also, you are citing data that is obsolete and has already been prevented as false:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0822-7

Even Dr. Fauci has hypothesized the actual death rate from the virus could be substantially lower than 1%:

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-02-28/china-study-puts-coronavirus-death-rate-at-14-37-real-number-may-be-lower

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-fatality-rate-computing-difficult/#slide-1

Regarding the death rates and effectiveness of social distancing and lockdowns, compare Sweden and Denmark.  Sweden has allowed most businesses and most schools to stay open, while Denmark has locked down.  As of writing this both countries have the same fatality rate (Sweden has approximately twice the population as Denmark).  If the Swedish death rate does in fact increase significantly above Denmark, then I'll be happy to change my thoughts.

Regarding testimonials and anecdotal stories, I already wrote above why I do not feel they are credible.  Just because someone says they are healthy doesn't mean they really are.  In addition, I know immunized children that have been hospitalized from the flu this year, but their cases are very rare.  When I was asthmatic I went into cardiac arrest during an asthma attack, but this is a very rare occurrence and not indicative of the overwhelming majority of asthmatic cases.

Regarding hospitals becoming overburdened, I agree.  However, at least in my part of the country every general practitioner, medical office and even urgent care centers are closed.  If someone has an unexpected or significant health problem that needs treatment there is nowhere to go but to the hospital.  Even without COVID-19 the hospitals will become overburdened. 

I've learned to only learned to rely on science and data.  The more people are tested, the base case studies indicate to me this disease isn't nearly as lethal as previously estimated.  Yes, there will be cases where people that are otherwise healthy die, but the data shows these cases are exceedingly rare. 

Relying on testimonials and anecdotal stories does lead to hysteria.  Reacting to fear based on those stories leads to bad decisions that effect us all.

Regarding the smart mouth asthma comment above.  I have asthma too, I've been on prednisone, hospitalized and even went through cardiac arrest due to an overdose of medicine while in a hospital.  Also, good luck to the millions of kids out there whose parents are now unemployed.  How will they get their asthma medicine and inhalers?  Have you ever had an asthma attack and no medicine available?  I have.  It sucks worse than COVID-19, quite frankly.  I will take my luck with a virus that in most cases causes at most mild symptoms versus having a severe asthma attack at night without any medicine available.  This will now not be a choice for a lot of children.

I invite you to look at this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03brod.html

Asthma is largely preventable through natural means.  If you choose to take the anti inflammatories and steroids for your condition I'm sure you know they can cause chronic organ damage and immunity problems.  Stay healthy.  However, because some people are at high risk doesn't mean all of society needs to be locked down.  There are plenty of reasonable theories that indicate only locking down and quarantine those most at risk is preferable, may lead to better health outcomes for the entire population and also reduce the economic impact. 

I will be more than happy to change my viewpoints as the disease progresses and more is learned. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on March 28, 2020, 09:47:00 AM
As more people are tested, the virus "appears" to become less deadly.  Most people that have COVID-19 are asymptomatic and are never tested.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/27/821958435/why-death-rates-from-coronavirus-can-be-deceiving

The bolded is false. If that's your takeaway from the cited article, you have misread. It's not that people aren't being tested because they are asymptomatic, it's that they're not being tested because symptoms are not so severe that they're being hospitalized. They are likely still experiencing flu-like symptoms. There's a huge difference between asymptomatic and not being hospitalized.

Your point that mortality rates are likely lower than current testing rates would suggest is correct, however not to the degree you seem to believe. Again from the article you cited:

Quote
So testing was restricted to the sickest people. That probably contributed to early evidence that the fatality rate in Wuhan was 4% or more. A study published last week estimated that in Wuhan, the chance that someone who developed coronavirus symptoms would die was actually 1.4%.

That's 1.4% after adjustment.

Quote
In the U.S., it's likely that the case fatality rate from coronavirus will end up somewhere between 0.5% and 1%, once a broad cross-section of the population has been tested, Lawrence says.

But that's no reason for the nation to relax, he adds.

"To put it into perspective, that's 5 to 10 times more fatal than flu," Lawrence says, a disease that kills between 12,000 and 61,000 people a year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 28, 2020, 09:56:14 AM

Regarding the smart mouth asthma comment above.  I have asthma too, I've been on prednisone, hospitalized and even went through cardiac arrest due to an overdose of medicine while in a hospital.  Also, good luck to the millions of kids out there whose parents are now unemployed.  How will they get their asthma medicine and inhalers? 


If there was a Darwin Award for "missing the point", you would be a surefire winner.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: beltim on March 28, 2020, 09:59:07 AM
I will be more than happy to change my viewpoints as the disease progresses and more is learned.

And how many deaths are you willing to accept as the cost of waiting, instead of taking measures we know work now?  When experts in nearly every country disagree with you?  Are you really so confident of your stance?

We won't truly know most of the data you want until the pandemic is over or winding down, depending on how long it takes.  In the meantime, we need to take measures we know work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: American GenX on March 28, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
I'm not aware of any deaths in younger healthy people.

Not only is it killing young people, many young people are ending up in the hospital with serious cases, even the young healthy athletic.  It's happening with increasing frequency.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on March 28, 2020, 10:15:43 AM
Even Dr. Fauci has hypothesized the actual death rate from the virus could be substantially lower than 1%:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-fatality-rate-computing-difficult/#slide-1

Again, I suspect you're not reading your own citations in their entirety, but instead selecting points which support your narrative and disregarding the rest.

From your National Review citation:

Quote
Regrettably, I reckon the answer must be that even if the coronavirus dipped perceptibly below 1 percent, it would still be much worse than flu. Why? Because none less than Dr. Fauci (among others) says so. Though he recently wrote that the rate could be “considerably less than 1%,” he has also recently testified, in a House hearing, that the novel virus from China has a “mortality rate of ten times” that of seasonal flu.

Quote
I suspect that this explains the ostensible contradiction between Dr. Fauci’s two comments on the fatality rate. Context is everything. In his House testimony, Fauci was confronting a political narrative that COVID-19 is really no worse than flu, and reliance on reported cases showing a 10:1 difference was a useful rebuttal. In his essay, he was trying to demonstrate to other scientists (and whatever sliver of the public reads medical journals) the imprecision of our knowledge about exactly how much worse COVID-19 is than flu.

Quote
The biggest problem may not be the fatality rate, however marginally over or under 1 percent it turns out to be. It is that about 10 percent of those who have tested positive for the virus have required hospitalization — 6,322 out of 65,512, by my last count of the COVID Tracking Project. If this percentage holds steady, and the number of positive reported cases were to rise into the hundreds of thousands and then the millions, our medical system would be overwhelmed.


The author has some good advice for all of us when drawing conclusions from the available data:

Quote
My point is that Fauci is a scientist, and I am not. If he is humble about our state of knowledge, I need to be humility on steroids.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on March 28, 2020, 10:16:27 AM
Do we know whether the higher percentage of deaths in people with co-morbidities is due to

1) the virus interacting with the co-morbidity to create a more severe illness,

2) having a co-morbidity means that the body is less likely to have the strength to survive a brutal 2 or 3 weeks on a ventilator,

3) someone with co-morbidities being later in the line for scarce medical resources and aggressive treatment,

4) a genetic or lifestyle element to the ability to withstand the virus which is also linked to chances of co-morbidities,

or some combination of all of these?

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 28, 2020, 10:23:00 AM
Do we know whether the higher percentage of deaths in people with co-morbidities is due to

1) the virus interacting with the co-morbidity to create a more severe illness,

2) having a co-morbidity means that the body is less likely to have the strength to survive a brutal 2 or 3 weeks on a ventilator,

3) someone with co-morbidities being later in the line for scarce medical resources and aggressive treatment,

4) a genetic or lifestyle element to the ability to withstand the virus which is also linked to chances of co-morbidities,

or some combination of all of these?

In the USA, I'd guess 2 and 4 right now. It may well switch to 3 fairly soon as physicians become faced with a surge of patients and a shortfall of supplies with which to treat them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on March 28, 2020, 10:33:14 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-fatality-rate-computing-difficult/#slide-1

This is actually a really good summary of what our current data can and can't tell us. I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 28, 2020, 11:17:59 AM
Do we know whether the higher percentage of deaths in people with co-morbidities is due to

1) the virus interacting with the co-morbidity to create a more severe illness,

2) having a co-morbidity means that the body is less likely to have the strength to survive a brutal 2 or 3 weeks on a ventilator,

3) someone with co-morbidities being later in the line for scarce medical resources and aggressive treatment,

4) a genetic or lifestyle element to the ability to withstand the virus which is also linked to chances of co-morbidities,

or some combination of all of these?

Way to complicate things. People are dying because the viral symptoms put enormous strain on the heart and lungs. Even people with a mild dose have routinely reported chest pain and breathlessness. If the functionality of your heart and lungs is not 100% because of underlying issues, you simply won't have the ability to overcome the stresses of the viral symptoms.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on March 28, 2020, 01:12:37 PM
Causes of death for our patients and reports from my friends in NYC  and Seattle say the patients develop acute respiratory distress syndrome, or ARDS. It’s essentially an inflammatory response to infection that occurs in some illnesses, and the lungs fill with fluid and dead immune cells. This kills the lung cells that exchange air and blood gases. Patients with underlying lung disease have less reserve so will decompensate from ARDS sooner than someone with normal lungs. The blood pressure within the lungs increases due to the inflammation and resulting constricted vessels, so people with heart disease also have less reserve to pump against the high pressure. Most patients who survive ARDs have long-term Lung issues and require months of rehab.

So far we are seeing about a 60-70% mortality after intubation in CA, NYC and WA. Death usually within 1-2 weeks. The majority of these patients did have lung or heart disease, but not unusually bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 29, 2020, 03:36:37 PM
Gee, white Evangelicalism doesn't protect you from COVID-19. Who would have ever guessed?

Liberty University Brings Back Its Students, and Coronavirus, Too (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on March 29, 2020, 03:45:25 PM
Gee, white Evangelicalism doesn't protect you from COVID-19. Who would have ever guessed?

Liberty University Brings Back Its Students, and Coronavirus, Too (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html)

Learning not to listen to Falwell and his ilk just might be the single most important lesson those students learn.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 29, 2020, 03:48:52 PM
Gee, white Evangelicalism doesn't protect you from COVID-19. Who would have ever guessed?

Liberty University Brings Back Its Students, and Coronavirus, Too (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html)

Learning not to listen to Falwell and his ilk just might be the single most important lesson those students learn.

The fact that those kids ended up there in the first place suggests that they have at least 18 years of far-right-wing brainwashing to overcome. I hope this at least gives them a bit of incentive to think for themselves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on March 29, 2020, 07:28:43 PM
"Give me Liberty or give me Death" takes on a new meaning.





Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Physicsteacher on March 29, 2020, 10:04:12 PM
I'm so frustrated by people in my life who pay lip service to social distancing yet seem unwilling to actually minimize contact with those outside their households. My sister-in-law, a registered nurse working in a hospital in a state with a stay at home order, had friends over for a barbecue tonight. My roommate's sister went to a bookstore, a garden center, and a pet store for dog toys this week. A former classmate went out to buy a wading pool for her kids.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on March 29, 2020, 10:09:35 PM
I'm so frustrated by people in my life who pay lip service to social distancing yet seem unwilling to actually minimize contact with those outside their households. My sister-in-law, a registered nurse working in a hospital in a state with a stay at home order, had friends over for a barbecue tonight. My roommate's sister went to a bookstore, a garden center, and a pet store for dog toys this week. A former classmate went out to buy a wading pool for her kids.

Our roommate seems suspicious of our choice to go for walks nearly every day and to our boat on weekends. But she goes shopping twice a week and gets something delivered more days than not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 29, 2020, 10:23:49 PM
My state government has said that we are not allowed to form groups of more than 2, and we are not allowed to leave our house other than for groceries, medical care, exercise, or work (where it cannot be done from home). There is an exception for households that live together - so a family of four can socialise and exercise and congregate as a four-some.

To me, that hardly seems fair. As someone who lives alone, I am not willing to spend 23 hours a day (1 hour a day for exercise) cooped up in my apartment, never seeing anyone in person, for the next 6 months. So I have set my own guidelines. The only people I physically see are the girl I'm dating, once a week, and my parents, once a fortnight. To me, the government advice should be moderated to allow people who live in a family relationship or romantic relationship but not in the same physical house to see each other.

Happy to be told I am being selfish, inconsiderate, whatever. When you have large families congregating (and still going to work), and non-essential retailers still operating as normal with no semblance of social distancing, and construction sites still operating, then there is no way that what I am doing is even a blip on the radar.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 29, 2020, 10:34:57 PM
I'm not judging you for that, Bloop. They're getting carried away with this stuff, and it's inconsistent and muddled.

We've already inflicted two million people (including me) with unemployment and the destruction of their businesses. There will be depression and suicides, and bad marriages getting worse. People are anxious, afraid, stuck at home with their families, domestic violence is increasing. Just in case people didn't have enough drama already, they've decided to leave liquor stores open.

As incentives, carrot and stick both work. But it’s remarkable how quickly they jump to grab the stick. Here in Australia, the federal and state governments have already set aside over $200 billion to try to stop the economy from collapsing.

For this amount they could give every adult citizen some $12k - rather than police patrols and threats of fines and imprisonment, why not set aside all the other nonsense and simply pay people to stay home?

But that would be carrot. And they always reach for the stick.

Their demeanour, really, reminds me of US occupying forces - go around threatening and abusing everyone, then handing out wads of cash afterwards. They are then surprised when warm friendship does not spontaneously arise from this process.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on March 29, 2020, 11:01:25 PM
The only people I physically see are the girl I'm dating, once a week, and my parents, once a fortnight. To me, the government advice should be moderated to allow people who live in a family relationship or romantic relationship but not in the same physical house to see each other.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I wonder if they're trying to keep the rules simple and straightforward but not being clear enough in the process.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Little Aussie Battler on March 30, 2020, 12:24:16 AM
Bloop

I have a spare, so I’m happy to donate a toddler to keep you company!

It’s still unclear to me what the end-game is here. Are we waiting for a vaccine (which may not ever arrive)? If so, that will take more then 6 months. Are we buying time to increase medical capacity? Are we trying to maintain restrictions until normal flu season has passed? Are we trying to slowly build herd immunity?

More and more, I fear that the Australian government is simply making it up as they go along, which is why the messaging is so confusing and inconsistent. I won’t even start on the issue of paying for childcare.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 30, 2020, 12:43:09 AM
The idea is obviously to suppress it to a level which the medical system can handle, with the view of eventually eradicating it. This was achieved with SARS, swine flu, and so on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Little Aussie Battler on March 30, 2020, 12:55:31 AM
I’m glad that it’s obvious to others.

Can you articulate the long-term strategy Kyle? How do we get from where we are today to a position where the virus is fully eradicated? What measures will be in place to achieve this, and how long is it expected to take?  What cooperation (if any) do we need from other governments, and is it clear that they agree with this course of action?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 30, 2020, 02:11:00 AM
I don't think they have a long-term strategy. It's like a bushfire - first you try to protect the most vulnerable areas, next you try to slow the spread of it to contain it, and only after all that do you worry about getting it all put out. the danger is never really gone, as such - you expect it to flare up again here and there at some point, but you hope to be able to keep it at a level that doesn't cripple your whole country.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on March 30, 2020, 04:15:47 AM
The idea is obviously to suppress it to a level which the medical system can handle, with the view of eventually eradicating it. This was achieved with SARS, swine flu, and so on.

This. About a week ago, people in my area were making similar complaints when our state government increased the shutdown. Now, the military is building field hospitals in my county because things escalated so quickly and our regional medical systems are already reaching capacity. We don't yet know how much worse this will get. A friend told me on Friday that in a 30-year nursing career, she's never seen anything like this.

I sincerely hope that Australia shut things down in time to avoid the worst of it. Things change very quickly once people start showing up at the local ERs with severe symptoms.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 30, 2020, 04:57:14 AM
I don't think they have a long-term strategy. It's like a bushfire - first you try to protect the most vulnerable areas, next you try to slow the spread of it to contain it, and only after all that do you worry about getting it all put out. the danger is never really gone, as such - you expect it to flare up again here and there at some point, but you hope to be able to keep it at a level that doesn't cripple your whole country.
Unfortunately, ScoMo has difficulty being a leader - he has to ad lib and muddy the message! I agree with Kyle - the bushfire analogy is great!

Slow the spread: We're doomed if the hospitals are overwhelmed, like they have been in other places, so the first priority is to ensure our health system can cope. They're pretty ham-fisted about it, but the ways to do this are to expand the health care system (removing all elective surgery, shunting off stuff that doesn't require hospital expertise to other places, getting more equipment by rejigging factories and getting stuff from overseas...) and reducing the numbers of people getting it badly enough that they need hospital care (testing - we're almost leading the world in the testing per capita, getting people to isolate...). The fact that the curve is lower in Australia than in most other countries at the same stage, and the exponential progression over the last few days looks like it's slowing, means that this is possibly all working if we can keep at it for another month. Despite what the media is saying, we have far fewer deaths per million than we would expect at this stage.

As other countries are doing things that work, our government is adding them along the way. And they really need to try to keep it completely out of all our remote areas since they already have almost no health services and really poor health outcomes.

Slowing the spread also means slowing the economic spread. I think they've been trying to keep as many people employed as possible, which is what's leading to so many mixed messages. They have, and will, make some pretty stupid calls on this. We are all getting a bit angry at these - and although most of us didn't vote for the people who are in power, they're what we've got, and they're really trying. At least we haven't got Tony. I think funneling all welfare through businesses is going to make things worse, but I'm not the one having to make decisions. At least we have politicians who ARE making somewhat sensible decisions.

I don't think they've thought through how they are going to get us back to a working economy, but as Kyle said - only after stopping the spread do you worry about getting it all put out. I'd guess that they are funneling everything through business to make it easier to get it all put out, but that's about as far as they're able to go.

I think that we will be very lucky if this virus disappears - after all, some variants of the common cold are coronaviruses.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on March 30, 2020, 07:09:47 AM
I’m glad that it’s obvious to others.

Can you articulate the long-term strategy Kyle? How do we get from where we are today to a position where the virus is fully eradicated? What measures will be in place to achieve this, and how long is it expected to take?  What cooperation (if any) do we need from other governments, and is it clear that they agree with this course of action?

One of our papers wrote an excellent article to define what we are aiming for:

https://www.macleans.ca/society/science/what-does-the-covid-19-endgame-look-like-five-simple-steps/

TLDR: the stay at home is a ''Reset'' to what we should have been doing from the very get-go. Every person with symptoms gets traced, isolated, and the people they were in contact with get alerted, isolated, and their contacts traced. That way the virus stops getting passed on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 30, 2020, 05:35:07 PM
I think funneling all welfare through businesses is going to make things worse, but I'm not the one having to make decisions.
I think the theory there is to preserve the businesses as much as possible. Scomo keeps talking about "six months" - I know a few medical types and they think that's an overestimate but let's take it as read. Let's say you run a little cafe with 6 employees, you've a chef doing 40hr pw, 4 wait staff and 1 kitchenhand doing 20hr pw. The chef gets $1,000pw, the others get minimum wage of $20 plus casual leave loading etc and thus a total of $500pw, nout counting superannuation and all the other small stuff. You also pay rent of $2,000pw and utilities and other stuff another few hundred.

Now comes the shutdown. You reluctantly stand your staff down. The shutdown lasts 6 months. You've no income. Landlord still wants his rent, though. Maybe if you're really unusual you have some savings, and can keep paying $2,000pw rent for 6 months. The staff go on the dole for those 6 months. Things open up again - maybe if you're lucky one of those staff will come back, you'd never get all 6. A couple will stay unemployed, a couple will go work for some other cafe, and a couple will do a different job now. You can get new staff but it takes you a few weeks and they have to settle down into the way things are done, and it's a messy couple of months. Your old customers drift back, and they don't recognise anybody, and orders get muddled and the place just doesn't feel the same - maybe your old customers go somewhere else, instead. 

But if the govt funnels $750pw through you, that's a drop for the chef but she can hack it for a bit, and it's actually more money for the wait staff and kitchenhand. You might be able to make up the other $250pw for the chef. Psychologically, they're not thinking of the money coming from govt, they're thinking of it coming from you - they're more likely to be back with you on day one of the unlocking. In a week or two they slide back into their old routine, your old customers come back and after months locked up in their homes they're now returning to their favourite cafe and everything's running as smoothly as it did when they were last there.

Obviously there will be opportunities for businesses to engage in fraud. I've no doubt there'll be lawsuits after dodgy business owners give someone $250 and keep the other $500pw for themselves, especially the places employing foreign students without half their hours on the books.

But all in all, it's not actually that bad an idea.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 31, 2020, 12:34:24 AM
I agree that it's not actually that bad an idea. It will be interesting just how many scrambling for work in the part time economy are eligible for several handouts - and maybe that will make proper full time jobs more available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 31, 2020, 04:13:22 AM
The question is what happens after. If you've got some waitress on $200 a fortnight who then gets $1,500 for 6 months, she's not going to be happy to go back onto $200, there'll be a lot of political pressure to up the dole or create a UBI or something.

I don't have a problem with this sort of thing as such, it's just that people often forget it has to be paid for. If you have a Scandanavian welfare system then you need Scandanavian taxes - with govt revenue and spending 45-55% of the economy. As well, while we sell off our resources cheaply to foreign-owned companies paying no taxes here, the Scandanavians sold them off expensively by means of state-owned companies, thus lessening slightly their tax burden.

The issue is that it's hard to get elected on a platform of higher taxes, much easier to get elected on a platform of higher spending. If we just have the spending without the revenue, then we get to be like the US and simply print money and hope we all die of old age before someone insists we pay it back. That's not prudent for individuals and it's not for countries, either.

It's a messy problem with no easy solutions. If - for reasons good or bad - you choose to shut down most of the economy for several months, it's going to be messy no matter what you do.

I would have slipped in a UBI there, myself. But I prefer simplicity, where possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on March 31, 2020, 04:48:53 AM
That’s why I said that funneling welfare through businesses may make things worse. You’re mad at your boss for reducing your pay at the end rather than the government, and in six months people forget that it’s not permanent. It’s going to be easier to rort too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: caracarn on April 01, 2020, 01:11:51 PM
Proud of our governor being so forward looking that he's now garnering international kudos:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52113186

To those in the thread indicating there is no plan, I wholeheartedly disagree.  I've seen a lot of things coming together and if you want to see a coherent plan join Ohio's daily press briefings.  Until there is a vaccine or herd immunity, whichever comes first, this will keep repeating but at much lower and lower levels each time.  I think out national leadership (read executive) has be atrocious.  The medical advisors  (Fauci, Birx) are doing OK in the smoke screen and are getting more and more traction each day.  I was actually very nervous about Trump getting the country open by Easter as he said a week ago, and was thrilled to see him somehow get to the spot that he extended to April 30.  I think we will need some more time, but once we get on the downturn of new daily cases I feel comfortable with the science I have heard around that plus two weeks being the indicator for returning from the WFH rules.

My company has given us all paycuts but we have jobs and are doing them from home globally until 4/30 at least.  For something that is really hard to manage, I think most governors have done a reasonable job, though many were late.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: scottish on April 02, 2020, 09:00:22 AM
Ok, I found a good one.   The Quebec government has put police on the bridges from Ontario to spot check drivers entering Quebec.

Linky:  https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/quebec-police-to-limit-ottawa-gatineau-border-crossings-for-covid-19-control/wcm/eac4a7dd-9633-44f9-b02f-a4a28d76f358/ (https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/quebec-police-to-limit-ottawa-gatineau-border-crossings-for-covid-19-control/wcm/eac4a7dd-9633-44f9-b02f-a4a28d76f358/)

The police are not wearing protective gear.

(https://postmediaottawacitizen2.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/77887384-img_0631-jpeg-w.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=564)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 02, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
I think we will need some more time, but once we get on the downturn of new daily cases I feel comfortable with the science I have heard around that plus two weeks being the indicator for returning from the WFH rules.

I had a thought about this first thing today following the scary charts from the recent briefing.  To their credit, the doctors noted that the model was probably pessimistic because it presumed New York would be the standard, which it will not be since that city started taking things seriously much later than other areas and it is very densely populated and had a lot of international travel moving through with a lot of varied points of exposure.  Comparatively, that model won't be like a town in Idaho where they initially traced all cases to one person who had contact outside the region.

What occurred to me this morning was that maybe we are seeing the beginning of a good persuasion play that will help people build confidence that we are moving past the worst of it.  By displaying very worst-case scenarios there will be a steep difference between that model and what happens in actuality.  If the drug cocktail is widely available and effective, the weather warms, and all this extreme distancing has worked then we will be far below the devastating numbers very quickly and obviously.  Showing far lower numbers will move people to say we are winning the war and they will be ready to come out of their mental bunkers to begin life again.  I really believe a huge part of this is fear and anxiety and people really need some hope and a path forward.  This might be the plan to restore some of that. 

If they are doing this on purpose it is pretty smart.  To show the worst numbers first gives people a mental boundary and when we beat those numbers by a mile we will feel like we crushed it and all this sacrifice has paid off.

Well, obviously the original plan to claim it was a hoax and claim the number of cases would go to zero very soon didn't work...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on April 02, 2020, 01:58:17 PM
Things seem to be improving on a country-wide level. Latest projections from UW (https://covid19.healthdata.org/) are an improvement from last week. The key number is #ventilators required, as that is the main bottleneck in resources. Currently estimating from 17k-55k at any given time, well within our nation-wide capacity of approximately 150k (assuming we shut down ORs until June, which is the current nation-wide plan). The majority of ventilated patients will die, so this is a surrogate for total deaths. They are predicting a shortage of ICU beds, but I don't believe they've taken into account upstaging regular beds to ICU status. Non-ventilated patients are manageable with higher ratios if necessary. Obviously not ideal, but we can make it work. Looks like everyone will need to stay home for a few more months (this model assumes continued isolation during the pandemic).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 02, 2020, 01:59:39 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing. if we're doing our jobs (of distancing) right, then the spread ends. but, there are plenty of people out there that DGAF, which means it's still spreading. therefore, you can never end distancing because herd immunity will not be achieved and we cannot be freed up to all suddenly get infected. meanwhile, the govt will be printing out $2T/month in stimulus just to replace the economy that would otherwise disappear, crippling the US (forever?).

my take from back in january is that the response needs to be either extreme: 100% lockdown OR 100% freedom. anything in the middle will produce the worst of all scenarios.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on April 02, 2020, 02:22:10 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing. if we're doing our jobs (of distancing) right, then the spread ends. but, there are plenty of people out there that DGAF, which means it's still spreading. therefore, you can never end distancing because herd immunity will not be achieved and we cannot be freed up to all suddenly get infected. meanwhile, the govt will be printing out $2T/month in stimulus just to replace the economy that would otherwise disappear, crippling the US (forever?).

my take from back in january is that the response needs to be either extreme: 100% lockdown OR 100% freedom. anything in the middle will produce the worst of all scenarios.
my understanding is that a lot of people will build up immunity and therefore even if a second or third or fourth wave hits after social distancing ends fewer people will be affected/effected/infected. Plus the hope for a vaccine.

You're correct on both points, @spartana. The end game is not avoiding endemic coronavirus, but decreasing episodes like NYC, Italy, Spain, etc. The percentage of known COVID patients with respiratory failure is ~5%, so while higher than influenza by a lot, it is manageable if spread out over time. Unfortunately, the majority of those patients are dying.

Also, essentially all virology labs in the entire world are now focused on a coronavirus vaccine, so if it is technically possible, that will happen sooner than usual. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on April 02, 2020, 02:37:40 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing.

It's time.

We will not be vaccine-less forever. We will not lack herd immunity forever (?). We will catch up with testing and better identify the pockets and individuals that need more targeted isolation instead of shotgunning the world. There may be better treatments or more time to manufacture and/or distribute needed supplies and equipment. There could be a chance for health professionals to get a break every now and then.

I don't think anybody now believes we can isolate well enough to completely eliminate this pandemic, else we wouldn't have flu or colds anymore, either. But this is what they mean by "flatten the curve": Slow the spread, lower the peak, and fewer bad things happen.

I can pretty much guarantee you social distancing will end too soon and we'll have another flare-up, but then we can clamp down again, and maybe by then we'll have more knowledge, more equipment, and the right equipment/supplies/medicines to deal with the second wave better than the first.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 02, 2020, 02:45:09 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing.
I can pretty much guarantee you social distancing will end too soon and we'll have another flare-up, but then we can clamp down again, and maybe by then we'll have more knowledge, more equipment, and the right equipment/supplies/medicines to deal with the second wave better than the first.

sure. but i mean, you end the lock downs, and a week later the virus spreads even more exponentially than it currently is, and then suddenly 50% of the population has it?

the curve flattening will be for naught. it'll spike bigly.

i follow this site:
https://ncov2019.live/

currently showing an 11% increase in cases from yesterday. rule of 72 says 6 days to double.

at peak demand (end of april?), we'll be at 4M infected.

now, let's say you remove the lockdowns. 11% becomes 40%. 2 days to double. 1 week = 2^4 = 16. so, 4M x 16 = 64M.

(obviously crude numbers used above)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on April 02, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
I'm mostly ignoring the reported numbers. We are *weeks* behind the curve in measuring/testing. We need more testing and reporting, but be careful projecting with today's numbers.

Aside from being behind in testing, it's difficult to extrapolate new cases to the general population since people who are getting tested are typically showing symptoms. In addition, there is an incubation period, so even if we could wave a magic wand and know exactly how many would test infected today we still can't yet extrapolate how many will be infected next week.

But good things are happening (and bad), and the more we can slow the spread the better off we are.

We basically have two choices: let it run its course or use the only tools we currently have to slow it while appropriate professionals catch up. The first options results in a lot more death, and not only from infections but due to overcrowded hospitals that will then underserve the normal daily accident victims, heart attacks, chronically ill, etc..

Edit: I am reminding myself I declared myself out of the "influencing others" business, especially with respect to the current pandemic, so I'm out. I'm going back to my thing and will let the world sort itself out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on April 02, 2020, 04:00:03 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing. if we're doing our jobs (of distancing) right, then the spread ends. but, there are plenty of people out there that DGAF, which means it's still spreading. therefore, you can never end distancing because herd immunity will not be achieved and we cannot be freed up to all suddenly get infected. meanwhile, the govt will be printing out $2T/month in stimulus just to replace the economy that would otherwise disappear, crippling the US (forever?).

my take from back in january is that the response needs to be either extreme: 100% lockdown OR 100% freedom. anything in the middle will produce the worst of all scenarios.
my understanding is that a lot of people will build up immunity and therefore even if a second or third or fourth wave hits after social distancing ends fewer people will be affected/effected/infected. Plus the hope for a vaccine.

And maybe because all the people who were going to die from covid already died in the first round? So a larger percentage of the people remaining are in low risk categories. Plus everything you said.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 02, 2020, 04:14:45 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing. if we're doing our jobs (of distancing) right, then the spread ends. but, there are plenty of people out there that DGAF, which means it's still spreading. therefore, you can never end distancing because herd immunity will not be achieved and we cannot be freed up to all suddenly get infected. meanwhile, the govt will be printing out $2T/month in stimulus just to replace the economy that would otherwise disappear, crippling the US (forever?).

my take from back in january is that the response needs to be either extreme: 100% lockdown OR 100% freedom. anything in the middle will produce the worst of all scenarios.
my understanding is that a lot of people will build up immunity and therefore even if a second or third or fourth wave hits after social distancing ends fewer people will be affected/effected/infected. Plus the hope for a vaccine.

And maybe because all the people who were going to die from covid already died in the first round? So a larger percentage of the people remaining are in low risk categories. Plus everything you said.
bolded part doesn't make sense. that would imply that the virus is floating around and infecting only the vulnerable. or, it implies that 100% has been infected already.

if vulnerable people have isolated for a long time, there's a greater likelihood that wave 2 would be worse than wave 1.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on April 02, 2020, 04:22:54 PM
what i don't understand is the end game with social distancing. if we're doing our jobs (of distancing) right, then the spread ends. but, there are plenty of people out there that DGAF, which means it's still spreading. therefore, you can never end distancing because herd immunity will not be achieved and we cannot be freed up to all suddenly get infected. meanwhile, the govt will be printing out $2T/month in stimulus just to replace the economy that would otherwise disappear, crippling the US (forever?).

my take from back in january is that the response needs to be either extreme: 100% lockdown OR 100% freedom. anything in the middle will produce the worst of all scenarios.
my understanding is that a lot of people will build up immunity and therefore even if a second or third or fourth wave hits after social distancing ends fewer people will be affected/effected/infected. Plus the hope for a vaccine.

And maybe because all the people who were going to die from covid already died in the first round? So a larger percentage of the people remaining are in low risk categories. Plus everything you said.
bolded part doesn't make sense. that would imply that the virus is floating around and infecting only the vulnerable. or, it implies that 100% has been infected already.

if vulnerable people have isolated for a long time, there's a greater likelihood that wave 2 would be worse than wave 1.

That is also a possibility depending on if the majority of the vulnerable population self isolated quickly enough and for long enough during the first wave.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: elaine amj on April 02, 2020, 11:01:35 PM
I think I remember reading somewhere that the hope is that when the next wave comes, they will be better prepared to immediately jump in to isolate and contact trace. This will minimize any outbreaks from spreading too far. Something they didn't really manage to do this time around.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 02, 2020, 11:03:13 PM
I think I remember reading somewhere that the hope is that when the next wave comes, they will be better prepared to immediately jump in to isolate and contact trace. This will minimize any outbreaks from spreading too far. Something they didn't really manage to do this time around.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk
^under current testing, and likely future levels, this will not be possible. no one is testing to a level where data and isolation is meaningful (minus s. korea)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 02, 2020, 11:37:34 PM
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/China-poisoned-our-people-says-campaign-ad-15174600.php

I don't want to quote any of this radioactive BS, reader beware.  And yes, Houstonians have to be subjected to this ad if we are watching TV (which I won't be).  I can only hope it turns people off from how crazy and polarizing it is in this current climate of needing to come together as US citizens and neighbors...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on April 03, 2020, 06:35:23 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Ze Stash on April 03, 2020, 07:44:41 AM
With every passing day since the start of the sheltering at home measures in Germany and the situation not becoming as dire as in Italy or Spain there are increasing numbers of trolls noticeable in social media which are calling Covid-19 a hoax or a ploy by some secret organisation to cover up something bigger. It feels like if it goes on for much longer and the economic impact increases this could also lead to increased levels of aggression and division in society.

At the same time the nationalistic approach to tackling the crisis of most countries could possibly damage international relations for a long time. Germanys initial response to the crisis was to ban all exports of PPE, while the situation was still quite relaxed in Germany and already pretty grim in other states, pissing off all European partner states. Luckily that ban was lifted again. The world should tackle this issue solidly united. The virus does not differentiate between nationality or stop at borders, so it should also be fought together.

Yesterday there were reports of masks which were ordered by France being snatched up on Chinese runways by US officials paying 3 to 4 times what France paid in cash. Today there are reports of the same happening to German orders of Masks being redirected to the US. I only have a link in German, but the sources are reputable:

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article206992269/Coronavirus-Pandemie-USA-fangen-von-Berlin-bestellte-Schutzmasken-aus-China-ab.html

America first I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: sherr on April 03, 2020, 08:21:05 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 03, 2020, 08:37:20 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.

Yeah, especially as the public beaches are closed. If they don’t make an example of this guy, there will be dozens more on the beach.

Local parks are having to close more and more amenities because people will not stop congregating.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on April 03, 2020, 09:14:07 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.

I wouldn't consider it outrage so much as laughing at the fact that police action caused far more chances of spreading the disease than letting a guy hang out by himself in the ocean.

Am I going to be arrested for walking around the neighborhood or going on a bike ride? Our state also has a stay at home order.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 03, 2020, 09:18:30 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.

Yeah, especially as the public beaches are closed. If they don’t make an example of this guy, there will be dozens more on the beach.

Local parks are having to close more and more amenities because people will not stop congregating.


This is really the issue.  And I agree - on the surface it looks stupid.  The single guy out paddleboarding is no big deal.  But then another guy sees him walking up and down the beach and decides . . . hey, it's a nice day.  I want to walk on the beach.  And two of them is no big deal.  But then three, four, ten, twenty . . . eventually it's a clusterfuck of a large gathering of people on the beach.

So, they really do need to clamp down on people who don't follow the orders.  Even if it looks stupid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on April 03, 2020, 09:35:45 AM
With every passing day since the start of the sheltering at home measures in Germany and the situation not becoming as dire as in Italy or Spain there are increasing numbers of trolls noticeable in social media which are calling Covid-19 a hoax or a ploy by some secret organisation to cover up something bigger. It feels like if it goes on for much longer and the economic impact increases this could also lead to increased levels of aggression and division in society.


I've been hearing some of these too. Isn't it sad that this happens in a country that did take measures earlier/better testing efforts and now benefits from it, that it makes people loose motivation?

I have heard several conspiracy theories as well. In India and part of the middle east people seem to think that China made the virus in a lab and spread it over the world, starting with themselves to not make them look suspicious. Then here there's some rumors that it's a virus made in the USA or Canada and 'ordered' by some of the super rich families to make them more powerful(?!). Then there's the USA-story in a different form saying that they wanted to weaken the Chinese but then it backfired and spread over the rest of the world while China contained it quickly.

I'm still trying to decide which theory makes the least sense.

In the meantime, the whole 'virusses mutate naturally and jump from one species to another occasionally' is not believed by those people, even though the vast majority of new virusses have originated that way the past few decades. I guess them highly secret highly paid respiratory virus producing labs have been very active all this time making SARS, MERS, ebola, H1N1 and all those other strains too. Next they'll start questioning whether Spanish flu was lab made lol. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 03, 2020, 09:57:41 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.

I wouldn't consider it outrage so much as laughing at the fact that police action caused far more chances of spreading the disease than letting a guy hang out by himself in the ocean.

Am I going to be arrested for walking around the neighborhood or going on a bike ride? Our state also has a stay at home order.

No, because your streets and sidewalks are not closed, and the stay at home orders specifically exempt solitary outdoor exercise. They also explicitly closed the beaches in California.

Seriously, if everyone would quit looking for loopholes and whining about the situation, it would settle down much more quickly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on April 03, 2020, 10:00:18 AM
Paddleboarder arrested at Malibu Pier for flouting state stay at home order

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/officials-paddleboarder-arrested-at-malibu-pier-for-flouting-state-stay-at-home-order/

Instead of staying at home, guy goes out and paddleboards. In the ocean. By himself. Then police go out and arrest him, creating far more contact than would have been made had he been left alone.

I think this is a silly thing to be sarcastic / outraged about. Yes it's silly on its face, but if everyone broke the rules and went out and "did things by themselves" then there wouldn't be much of a stay-at-home order, would there? Law enforcement always "makes an example" out of people who flagrantly breaks the rules to keep everyone else in line, that's just how it works.
This is a very tough one for me, living near the beach in California.

He's by himself!  Social distancing!

OTOH, people are stupid.  Our city has closed parks, they are starting to close trails.  It's okay for a family of 4 to walk on the beach and stay away from others, the problem is when 50 families do that at the same time. 

My friends are pissed that they may be closing the trails - "people are ruining it for us!"  Look, I get it, you are a regular hiker and now there are hundreds more on the trails and there is NO WAY to keep 6 ft on our trails when you pass.  It's not possible! 

They took down the basketball hoop at our local park yesterday, and said no outdoor group activities, even if the same family.  So we had been occasionally going to that court to play 2-square.  Have to try it in our tiny backyard  now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on April 03, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
Lots of people are just self-centered, spoiled brats with no consideration for others or ability to think beyond their own immediate wants.  They need to be taken down and hard.  No one cares about their entitlements right now.  No sympathy from me if someone is made an example of.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 03, 2020, 10:36:27 AM

I've been hearing some of these too. Isn't it sad that this happens in a country that did take measures earlier/better testing efforts and now benefits from it, that it makes people loose motivation?

I have heard several conspiracy theories as well. In India and part of the middle east people seem to think that China made the virus in a lab and spread it over the world, starting with themselves to not make them look suspicious.

I've seen this online a lot in the last few weeks from tinfoil-hat Trump supporters. With the addition that they did it to derail Trump's reelection chances.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 03, 2020, 11:23:22 AM

I've been hearing some of these too. Isn't it sad that this happens in a country that did take measures earlier/better testing efforts and now benefits from it, that it makes people loose motivation?

I have heard several conspiracy theories as well. In India and part of the middle east people seem to think that China made the virus in a lab and spread it over the world, starting with themselves to not make them look suspicious.

I've seen this online a lot in the last few weeks from tinfoil-hat Trump supporters. With the addition that they did it to derail Trump's reelection chances.

Yes, because 57,000 people had nothing better to do in life than die so Trump wouldn't get re-elected.  and another million+ tried to do it and failed (so far). 

These people are willfully dumb.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Hirondelle on April 03, 2020, 11:42:08 AM

I've been hearing some of these too. Isn't it sad that this happens in a country that did take measures earlier/better testing efforts and now benefits from it, that it makes people loose motivation?

I have heard several conspiracy theories as well. In India and part of the middle east people seem to think that China made the virus in a lab and spread it over the world, starting with themselves to not make them look suspicious.

I've seen this online a lot in the last few weeks from tinfoil-hat Trump supporters. With the addition that they did it to derail Trump's reelection chances.

Yes, because 57,000 people had nothing better to do in life than die so Trump wouldn't get re-elected.  and another million+ tried to do it and failed (so far). 

These people are willfully dumb.

Yup, would've never guessed that particularly Italians and Spaniards were willing to die just to avoid getting Trump re-elected. They must be more socialist than Bernie Sanders!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GreenSheep on April 03, 2020, 01:40:45 PM
I'm fully on board with removing people who are in places that have been closed, using the above argument that if you allow one, you'll soon have a crowd, but what I can't figure out is... if the beach was closed, why was there a lifeguard working there?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 03, 2020, 02:39:19 PM
I'm fully on board with removing people who are in places that have been closed, using the above argument that if you allow one, you'll soon have a crowd, but what I can't figure out is... if the beach was closed, why was there a lifeguard working there?

(a) Because his place of work wasn't a danger to anyone else and (b) he's a first responder and (c) someone's got to call the po-po on the folks at the beach!  :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 03, 2020, 05:42:37 PM
I'm fully on board with removing people who are in places that have been closed, using the above argument that if you allow one, you'll soon have a crowd, but what I can't figure out is... if the beach was closed, why was there a lifeguard working there?
Hawaii resident here.

Beaches are technically closed. Lifeguards are not manning the towers. But they're patrolling the shores, doing... not sure what they're doing. But they're there.

You can still go in the ocean. Surf breaks are as crowded as ever, maybe even more than usual since everybody is out of work/school. You're just not supposed to linger on the beach, but crossing it to go in the water is totally fine. Done it in front of cops, no problemo.

Plenty of people still go to the beach to linger despite the order, just not the popular ones, and they don't hang out in large groups.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 03, 2020, 06:44:47 PM
My county has just closed off recreational boating of all kinds.

I already felt like it wasn't really in the spirit of stay at home, but I also felt quite privileged to have the ability to go to the boat every weekend. It really broke up the weeks, given that I was already at home for a week before the stay at home order in our state. Except for groceries and the boat.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 03, 2020, 06:54:31 PM
My son, who is a very knowledgeable and attentive source for things in Georgia, said the Governor of Georgia just put statewide restrictions on movement into effect.

He and a number of public health and civic leaders in his part of the state are livid about this because the governor also cancelled all local city and county restrictions with that executive order.

His own area had more stringent restrictions in place and has NOT had the kind of exponential growth other areas are getting.  Now those tougher restrictions are lifted.

I'm waiting to see what the official public response from public health and civic leaders in his part of the state will be to this.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 04, 2020, 05:36:41 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 04, 2020, 06:13:01 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 04, 2020, 08:35:15 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".

Those are incredibly low odds - in my country the estimates are that 60-70% of those in intensive care survive. Of course we have a different culture around death where it's not the done thing to treat people in the ICU when they don't stand a chance of survival.

I think the availability of ICU beds is an important factor for morale though - even though we're talking about a tiny proportion of the patient population, when there are no more beds available, you're going to get panic and that's not what we need at all. Ventilators are an important 'we are in control' symbol.

Edit: see I mixed up some words.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 04, 2020, 09:12:29 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".

Those are incredibly low odds - in my country the estimates are that 60-70% of those in intensive care pass away. Of course we have a different culture around death where it's not the done thing to treat people in the ICU when they don't stand a chance of survival.

I think the availability of ICU beds is an important factor for morale though - even though we're talking about a tiny proportion of the patient population, when there are no more beds available, you're going to get panic and that's not what we need at all. Ventilators are an important 'we are in control' symbol.

Interesting perspective.   From what I’ve seen in America the most medical care is overwhelmingly spent on people that are in the end phases of life.   Treatments become invasive and very expensive when the odds of success are exceedingly low.  I never understood this.  “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures” is not something practiced in American medicine, or at least not something taken seriously.

At the very least this is a very expensive psychological experiment.   I do like the importance you’ve stressed regarding the psychology, that seems to be overlooked.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 04, 2020, 09:41:24 AM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 04, 2020, 10:45:43 AM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.

I don't really understand? The patient in the nursing home could have required a ventilator for any number of reasons. What do you expect the nursing home to do, just let them die of whatever condition they had?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on April 04, 2020, 10:51:33 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".

Those are incredibly low odds - in my country the estimates are that 60-70% of those in intensive care survive. Of course we have a different culture around death where it's not the done thing to treat people in the ICU when they don't stand a chance of survival.

I think the availability of ICU beds is an important factor for morale though - even though we're talking about a tiny proportion of the patient population, when there are no more beds available, you're going to get panic and that's not what we need at all. Ventilators are an important 'we are in control' symbol.

Edit: see I mixed up some words.

Rates may differ because not all patients in ICU, in fact, probably a minority of them, are on a ventilator.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 04, 2020, 12:12:54 PM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".

Those are incredibly low odds - in my country the estimates are that 60-70% of those in intensive care survive. Of course we have a different culture around death where it's not the done thing to treat people in the ICU when they don't stand a chance of survival.

I think the availability of ICU beds is an important factor for morale though - even though we're talking about a tiny proportion of the patient population, when there are no more beds available, you're going to get panic and that's not what we need at all. Ventilators are an important 'we are in control' symbol.

Edit: see I mixed up some words.

What percentage of those who survive do so with permanent lung damage?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 04, 2020, 12:26:37 PM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".
No kidding.   Given a choice between a 15% chance of living and a 0.00001% chance of living due to a miracle, I'll pick 15%!   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 04, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.

I don't really understand? The patient in the nursing home could have required a ventilator for any number of reasons. What do you expect the nursing home to do, just let them die of whatever condition they had?
The impression I got was that this was a person in a nursing home who was permanently on a ventilator: ie permanently kept sedated and artificially breathing, with no improvement expected.  Inhumane, and the end result of "we want everything done to keep this person alive".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: erutio on April 04, 2020, 12:39:01 PM
Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 04, 2020, 02:41:07 PM
Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Right.  But more of an "iron lung" type than the type of ventilator that is needed for covid-19 patients, which is full sedation and tubes down the throat, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Caroline PF on April 04, 2020, 06:11:06 PM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.

I don't really understand? The patient in the nursing home could have required a ventilator for any number of reasons. What do you expect the nursing home to do, just let them die of whatever condition they had?
The impression I got was that this was a person in a nursing home who was permanently on a ventilator: ie permanently kept sedated and artificially breathing, with no improvement expected.  Inhumane, and the end result of "we want everything done to keep this person alive".

Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Right.  But more of an "iron lung" type than the type of ventilator that is needed for covid-19 patients, which is full sedation and tubes down the throat, right?

When someone needs long-term ventilator support, like a quadriplegic, they will get a tracheostomy. This is surgical access through your neck to your trachea. Once in place, this does not need sedation like the standard breathing tube that goes through your mouth, because it's not painful or irritating.

So the patient in the nursing home on a ventilator would not be (pharmaceutically) sedated and out of it.

But the ventilator itself would likely be nearly identical to the ventilators used in the ICU on COVID patients.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 04, 2020, 06:48:34 PM
Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Right.  But more of an "iron lung" type than the type of ventilator that is needed for covid-19 patients, which is full sedation and tubes down the throat, right?

No, it's the same ventilator with a tracheostomy for attachment. People who aren't able to breath for themselves because they are paralysed don't need sedation. The sedation is to prevent your body fighting the ventilator (it's quite painful to be intubated). It's not quite the sedation you're thinking of, although it does leave you unable to move. It turns off your signals to breath, so you don't make any attempt to. Anyone intubated has this kind of sedation. There are other conditions that cause people to need a ventilator, not just full body paralysis. ALS causes progressive problems with the throat and breathing. Muscle wasting diseases can mean people don't have the strength to breath for themselves.

Edit to add: Christopher Reeve was on a ventilator for quite some time after his accident. He was alert, able to talk and interact with his family and those around him. I wouldn't begrudge him those years of life. The poor guy also had recurrent infections and problems with his ventilator. It has multiple fail safes that kick in so it won't stop, but it is a complex machine and things go awry. If it stopped, he would have to wait, needing oxygen but not being able to do a thing about it, until the secondary systems kicked in. He couldn't even call for help because that requires and out breath. It's only seconds but I imagine they were some long seconds. Extremely unpleasant but I'm pretty sure he would say it was worth it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 04, 2020, 07:05:05 PM
My son, who is a very knowledgeable and attentive source for things in Georgia, said the Governor of Georgia just put statewide restrictions on movement into effect.

He and a number of public health and civic leaders in his part of the state are livid about this because the governor also cancelled all local city and county restrictions with that executive order.

His own area had more stringent restrictions in place and has NOT had the kind of exponential growth other areas are getting.  Now those tougher restrictions are lifted.

I'm waiting to see what the official public response from public health and civic leaders in his part of the state will be to this.

Same situation here in AZ.  Our Republican governor has specifically forbade cities from having more stringent regulations. 
The same governor who finally decided - yesterday - that barbershops and hair salons are not essential businesses. 
Here we are at the mercy of these ideological idiots.  There's blood on their hands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 04, 2020, 07:45:56 PM
Here's a quick and easy way to kill off your flock...

"Florida pastor arrested after holding church services despite coronavirus orders"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-pastor-arrested-after-holding-church-services-despite-coronavirus-orders-n1172276 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-pastor-arrested-after-holding-church-services-despite-coronavirus-orders-n1172276)

Same guy:

https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/evangelical-pastor-mocks-pansies-wont-close-church-for-coronavirus/ (https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/evangelical-pastor-mocks-pansies-wont-close-church-for-coronavirus/)

"Many pastors follow coronavirus rules but some defy them"

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pastors-follow-coronavirus-rules-defy-69669986 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pastors-follow-coronavirus-rules-defy-69669986)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/king-jesus-church-florida-coronavirus_n_5e7120e8c5b60fb69ddf6f66 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/king-jesus-church-florida-coronavirus_n_5e7120e8c5b60fb69ddf6f66)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/us/louisiana-pastor-spell-coronavirus/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/us/louisiana-pastor-spell-coronavirus/index.html)

And if we can't kill them with prayer, kill them with snake oil

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/11/814550474/missouri-sues-televangelist-jim-bakker-for-selling-fake-coronavirus-curel (https://www.npr.org/2020/03/11/814550474/missouri-sues-televangelist-jim-bakker-for-selling-fake-coronavirus-curel)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 04, 2020, 09:45:17 PM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/04/coronavirus-trump-says-states-playing-politics-ventilator-requests/5111963002/

How can Trump be so incredibly stupid?  People dying of Covid is not a political gambit.  I'm not an epidemiologist, but I am capable of just looking at the increasing number of diagnosed cases and it is inevitable that the number of hospitalizations and demand for ventilators will spike in the 'hot spots'.  Even if diagnosed cases magically plateaued tomorrow, the current cases will become hospitalizations.  We need an apolitical response to these requests for assistance, knowing what is coming and where ventilators are needed is an optimization vs. data problem - our President is utterly failing us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 05, 2020, 12:31:37 AM
Is an effective COVID-19 vaccination possible?

I thought attempts at vaccines for other coronavirus strains (SARS) have been unsuccessful?

Regarding ventilators, from what I’ve read the survival rate once a COVID-19 patient has been placed on a ventilator is only about 15%.  Those aren’t good treatment odds, so I’m not quite sure the importance placed on a last resort treatment that is not particularly effective.
Because not doing it is a death sentence?  And because medics are a bit squeamish at handing those out and relatives "want everything done".

Those are incredibly low odds - in my country the estimates are that 60-70% of those in intensive care survive. Of course we have a different culture around death where it's not the done thing to treat people in the ICU when they don't stand a chance of survival.

I think the availability of ICU beds is an important factor for morale though - even though we're talking about a tiny proportion of the patient population, when there are no more beds available, you're going to get panic and that's not what we need at all. Ventilators are an important 'we are in control' symbol.

Edit: see I mixed up some words.

What percentage of those who survive do so with permanent lung damage?

As no one who had been in the ICU has even left hospital yet, and Covid-19 has only been around for a couple of months, no one knows for sure what the long term prognosis is. Under normal circumstances we know that 50% of those admitted to ICU will never again reach the level of health they had before and many SARS patients have permanent lung damage.

@SunnyDays at least in my country for Covid-19 basically everyone in ICU is on a ventilator, some people with this disease also get kidney failure. All other care except for ventilation can be given in regular hospital departments. And a certain % of beds is reserved for non-corona related emergencies.

@SwordGuy in my culture that would be a very unusual choice, but of course everyone can make their own choices. A close relative of mine has passed away from Covid-19 and they were basically given that exact prognosis + the information about what their expected quality of life would be afterwards. They chose no ICU and passed away about a week later with their children by their bedside. No ICU had been in their medical directive since they were about 70 and that's pretty common around here. If I was in the situation where I had a 85% odds of dying alone in ICU and 15% of surviving but bedridden in a nursing home I think my choice is clear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 05, 2020, 01:14:00 AM
One thing that really can affect our future is trust between nations.  Now I'm thinking of how medical supplies are shipped around the world - or not shipped.

In the US, there has been some talk confication of stuff headed for other countries from 3M I think, and in Europe one manufacturer (Mölnlycke) had a logtistics center in France which lead to that the French tried to grab a hold of supplies headed for e.g. Italy and Spain.  This French situation seems resolved now, thank god. 

But what will the long term effects be of trust between countries?

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 05, 2020, 01:29:38 AM
One thing that really can affect our future is trust between nations.  Now I'm thinking of how medical supplies are shipped around the world - or not shipped.

In the US, there has been some talk confication of stuff headed for other countries from 3M I think, and in Europe one manufacturer (Mölnlycke) had a logtistics center in France which lead to that the French tried to grab a hold of supplies headed for e.g. Italy and Spain.  This French situation seems resolved now, thank god. 

But what will the long term effects be of trust between countries?

I think after this the balance of power in the world will definitely have shifted from the USA to China. That's been going on for a while, but Trump has adopted an America first policy now, while China is generous. They are sending loads of medical supplies to Europe. I expect them to financially generous in the aftermath too, like the US was after WWII.

In Europe there is some loyalty between some countries (we are cooperating with our close neighbours/alles) but very little on the EU-level. Honestly, as much as I am pro-EU, I wonder whether the EU is doomed if this is the level of cooperation we have in an emergency.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on April 05, 2020, 01:35:20 AM
One thing that really can affect our future is trust between nations.  Now I'm thinking of how medical supplies are shipped around the world - or not shipped.

In the US, there has been some talk confication of stuff headed for other countries from 3M I think, and in Europe one manufacturer (Mölnlycke) had a logtistics center in France which lead to that the French tried to grab a hold of supplies headed for e.g. Italy and Spain.  This French situation seems resolved now, thank god. 

But what will the long term effects be of trust between countries?

I think after this the balance of power in the world will definitely have shifted from the USA to China. That's been going on for a while, but Trump has adopted an America first policy now, while China is generous. They are sending loads of medical supplies to Europe. I expect them to financially generous in the aftermath too, like the US was after WWII.

In Europe there is some loyalty between some countries (we are cooperating with our close neighbours/alles) but very little on the EU-level. Honestly, as much as I am pro-EU, I wonder whether the EU is doomed if this is the level of cooperation we have in an emergency.

To be fair, China did offer medical masks and supplies to the US. The US rejected their offer to help. Said their supplies (N95 masks that meet non-US standards)) “do not meet quality standards”. A few days later, the US CDC recommended that everyone wear homemade cloth masks and hospitals are asking Americans to sew cloth masks for their personnel. I doubt homemade cloth masks are better than the N95 masks offered by China.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 05, 2020, 01:48:13 AM
News stories here say th US has now accepted several shipments of this gear from China.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 05, 2020, 01:55:27 AM
So based on a couple of studies the percentage of people surviving after needing a ventilator ranged from 14% in China, to 33% in the UK, to 33-50% in the US.

Quote
The largest study so far to look at mortality among coronavirus patients on ventilators was done by the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre in London. It found that among 98 ventilated patients in the U.K., just 33 were discharged alive.

The numbers from a study of Wuhan, China, are even grimmer. Only 3 of 22 ventilated patients survived.
And a study of 18 ventilated patients in Washington state found that nine were still alive when the study ended, but only six had recovered enough to breathe on their own.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/02/826105278/ventilators-are-no-panacea-for-critically-ill-covid-19-patients

I'd say a 1/3 chance of survival, perhaps 1/2, is worth the effort.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 05, 2020, 02:14:43 AM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.

I don't really understand? The patient in the nursing home could have required a ventilator for any number of reasons. What do you expect the nursing home to do, just let them die of whatever condition they had?
The impression I got was that this was a person in a nursing home who was permanently on a ventilator: ie permanently kept sedated and artificially breathing, with no improvement expected.  Inhumane, and the end result of "we want everything done to keep this person alive".

Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Right.  But more of an "iron lung" type than the type of ventilator that is needed for covid-19 patients, which is full sedation and tubes down the throat, right?

When someone needs long-term ventilator support, like a quadriplegic, they will get a tracheostomy. This is surgical access through your neck to your trachea. Once in place, this does not need sedation like the standard breathing tube that goes through your mouth, because it's not painful or irritating.

So the patient in the nursing home on a ventilator would not be (pharmaceutically) sedated and out of it.

But the ventilator itself would likely be nearly identical to the ventilators used in the ICU on COVID patients.
OK, got it, thanks.  So more like the iron lung option I was thinking about but adaptable for the ICU sedated use.  That's significantly better than I thought, but I can also see that when someone with such a fragile and marginal hold on life then gets COVID-19 it must pretty much be a death sentence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Freedomin5 on April 05, 2020, 02:57:40 AM
News stories here say th US has now accepted several shipments of this gear from China.

Hopefully that is true. As of last Thursday, one of my Chinese friends in the states tried to bulk order medical masks from China through her contacts. Her family has an essential business in the US and their staff needed masks since they handle food production. She was unable to do so because “American stopped accepting masks from China, unless they are FDA approved, and that reduced number of providers to 10.” Those were her words. The companies she wanted to order from couldn’t ship the masks. Perhaps the US has changed its mind in the last three days.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 05, 2020, 03:06:09 AM
I saw a news story from a doctor in New York, talking about a patient coming in from a nursing home with coronavirus, and the patient came in with a ventilator that they had been on even before getting the virus.  The doctor was feeling guilty because she was thinking "there's another ventilator" whereas I was horrified that a patient in a nursing home would be "maintained" on a ventilator in the first place.

I don't really understand? The patient in the nursing home could have required a ventilator for any number of reasons. What do you expect the nursing home to do, just let them die of whatever condition they had?
The impression I got was that this was a person in a nursing home who was permanently on a ventilator: ie permanently kept sedated and artificially breathing, with no improvement expected.  Inhumane, and the end result of "we want everything done to keep this person alive".

Some quadriplegics require a ventilator at all times.
Right.  But more of an "iron lung" type than the type of ventilator that is needed for covid-19 patients, which is full sedation and tubes down the throat, right?

When someone needs long-term ventilator support, like a quadriplegic, they will get a tracheostomy. This is surgical access through your neck to your trachea. Once in place, this does not need sedation like the standard breathing tube that goes through your mouth, because it's not painful or irritating.

So the patient in the nursing home on a ventilator would not be (pharmaceutically) sedated and out of it.

But the ventilator itself would likely be nearly identical to the ventilators used in the ICU on COVID patients.
OK, got it, thanks.  So more like the iron lung option I was thinking about but adaptable for the ICU sedated use.  That's significantly better than I thought, but I can also see that when someone with such a fragile and marginal hold on life then gets COVID-19 it must pretty much be a death sentence.

A ventilator is nothing at all like an iron lung. Not even close. Think Christopher Reeve in his wheelchair. That's a ventilator with a trach.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11/13/00/6107474-6381883-image-m-6_1542067725060.jpg)

This is an iron lung. It's a terrible, restrictive and vastly old fashioned device
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/cgggbe3okmcbg8kmcoxk.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 05, 2020, 03:16:00 AM
Right.  I should have said negative pressure ventilator, not iron lung which is very old terminology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 05, 2020, 03:30:20 AM
Right.  I should have said negative pressure ventilator, not iron lung which is very old terminology.

You're right about covid being a near death sentence if you're already on a ventilator, though. If your lung function is that compromised already, you don't have a lot of hope of recovery from something like covid. Stranger things happen every day in hospitals, though. Definitely not a reason to give up on someone. People you're 100% sure will die, don't. People who you're 100% sure will live, don't. And every so often someone gives birth with no idea they're pregnant. You just never know.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Caroline PF on April 05, 2020, 07:49:36 AM
OK, got it, thanks.  So more like the iron lung option I was thinking about but adaptable for the ICU sedated use.

Right.  I should have said negative pressure ventilator, not iron lung which is very old terminology.

???
Here in the US, I have never seen a negative pressure ventilator in use. Essentially 100% of ventilators are positive pressure ventilators, whether they are for ICU use or home use.

Positive pressure does not mean you need sedation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 05, 2020, 08:15:14 AM
https://reason.com/2020/04/03/what-percentage-of-covid-19-patients-are-likely-to-die/


"I've looked at all the models. I've spent a lot of time on the models. They don't tell you anything. You can't really rely upon models," said Dr. Anthony Fauci...

From the American Journal of Epidemiology in 2009:

"Because major public health decisions are made and population programs are promoted on the basis of estimates from these statistical methods, investment in their careful validation is essential to guide rational public policy decisions. Until then, their limitations should be made explicit and estimates used cautiously."


Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GreenSheep on April 05, 2020, 08:19:02 AM
A bit OT, but since iron lungs were mentioned, I thought I'd share this article I came across recently. There are STILL polio survivors in the US who depend on iron lungs!

https://gizmodo.com/the-last-of-the-iron-lungs-1819079169
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 05, 2020, 10:38:31 AM
Interesting perspective.   From what I’ve seen in America the most medical care is overwhelmingly spent on people that are in the end phases of life.   Treatments become invasive and very expensive when the odds of success are exceedingly low.  I never understood this.  “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures” is not something practiced in American medicine, or at least not something taken seriously.

A couple of years ago at a medical conference, it was shared that 25% of money spent on medical care in the U.S. is spent on people in the last year of their life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: JoJo on April 05, 2020, 10:48:37 AM


A couple of years ago at a medical conference, it was shared that 25% of money spent on medical care in the U.S. is spent on people in the last year of their life.

This wouldn't surprise me.  I had one aunt and uncle die in the last year.  Both in their upper 80s, both had multiple hospitalizations and each had at least one nursing home stay.  Uncle had 5 surgeries in his last 8 days of life.  Aunt was miserable for at least the last year of her life and went thru so much suffering.  So much for dignity. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2020, 11:16:15 AM
@SwordGuy in my culture that would be a very unusual choice, but of course everyone can make their own choices. A close relative of mine has passed away from Covid-19 and they were basically given that exact prognosis + the information about what their expected quality of life would be afterwards. They chose no ICU and passed away about a week later with their children by their bedside. No ICU had been in their medical directive since they were about 70 and that's pretty common around here. If I was in the situation where I had a 85% odds of dying alone in ICU and 15% of surviving but bedridden in a nursing home I think my choice is clear.
 

Maybe I missed it, but the choice, as I understood it, was 15% life and recovery vs die.     Bedridden in a nursing home would be pretty awful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2020, 12:19:44 PM
My neighbor said she wants everyone to be forced stay home until there is a vaccine.  I pointed out that could be 18 months and it did not influence her one little bit, she just doubled down.  She is 100% unaffected and will get paid no matter what because she works for the city government.  She has no children to deal with at home, either.  She is very happy watching all this control over movement and restrictions on grocery purchases just like it would be in Cuba, a much-admired country in her mind.  She totally digs that our greenhouse gases are down without regard to any other consideration.     

Most people operate from their own narrow perspective and are prone to panic and will not engage in critical thinking even as an exercise.  They do not have the ability to weigh a health impact vs. an economic one vs. environmental one and can only do all-this or all-that type of thinking without nuance.  And virtue signal first, always first.  Can we talk about a blended or balanced approach and how to manage things?  Nope.  Until it affects her personally she will not change her mind, and if it does affect her she will decide it was someone else's fault, especially politicians she doesn't agree with.  She is not big on personal responsibility or sacrifice and seems to be loving her stay at home vacation.  Anyone who disagrees must be one of those deplorables, that is as big as her mind can ever get.  Too bad.   

I found it interesting how people reveal themselves when bad things happen, and I won't forget who they really are after this is over.             

In my experience, the trait of "don't care about it until it affects me" runs much more strongly among the conservatives.   That's why they oppose a social safety net.    And I know a bunch who "unvirtue signal", for example, buying things to put on their truck that belch smoke to "own them libtards" or making bigoted slurs whenever they think they can get away with it.



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 05, 2020, 12:26:00 PM
My neighbor said she wants everyone to be forced stay home until there is a vaccine.  I pointed out that could be 18 months and it did not influence her one little bit, she just doubled down.  She is 100% unaffected and will get paid no matter what because she works for the city government.  She has no children to deal with at home, either.  She is very happy watching all this control over movement and restrictions on grocery purchases just like it would be in Cuba, a much-admired country in her mind.  She totally digs that our greenhouse gases are down without regard to any other consideration.     

Most people operate from their own narrow perspective and are prone to panic and will not engage in critical thinking even as an exercise.  They do not have the ability to weigh a health impact vs. an economic one vs. environmental one and can only do all-this or all-that type of thinking without nuance.  And virtue signal first, always first.  Can we talk about a blended or balanced approach and how to manage things?  Nope.  Until it affects her personally she will not change her mind, and if it does affect her she will decide it was someone else's fault, especially politicians she doesn't agree with.  She is not big on personal responsibility or sacrifice and seems to be loving her stay at home vacation.  Anyone who disagrees must be one of those deplorables, that is as big as her mind can ever get.  Too bad.   

I found it interesting how people reveal themselves when bad things happen, and I won't forget who they really are after this is over.             

In my experience, the trait of "don't care about it until it affects me" runs much more strongly among the conservatives.   That's why they oppose a social safety net.    And I know a bunch who "unvirtue signal", for example, buying things to put on their truck that belch smoke to "own them libtards" or making bigoted slurs whenever they think they can get away with it.




They're the ones that will drink your last beer too! 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 05, 2020, 12:30:51 PM
My neighbor said she wants everyone to be forced stay home until there is a vaccine.  I pointed out that could be 18 months and it did not influence her one little bit, she just doubled down.  She is 100% unaffected and will get paid no matter what because she works for the city government.  She has no children to deal with at home, either.  She is very happy watching all this control over movement and restrictions on grocery purchases just like it would be in Cuba, a much-admired country in her mind.  She totally digs that our greenhouse gases are down without regard to any other consideration.     

Most people operate from their own narrow perspective and are prone to panic and will not engage in critical thinking even as an exercise.  They do not have the ability to weigh a health impact vs. an economic one vs. environmental one and can only do all-this or all-that type of thinking without nuance.  And virtue signal first, always first.  Can we talk about a blended or balanced approach and how to manage things?  Nope.  Until it affects her personally she will not change her mind, and if it does affect her she will decide it was someone else's fault, especially politicians she doesn't agree with.  She is not big on personal responsibility or sacrifice and seems to be loving her stay at home vacation.  Anyone who disagrees must be one of those deplorables, that is as big as her mind can ever get.  Too bad.   

I found it interesting how people reveal themselves when bad things happen, and I won't forget who they really are after this is over.             

 My alcoholic/chain smoking parents who have destroyed their health and are only kept alive with modern medicine feel the same way.   Everything should be closed down, families made to stay at home, bankruptcy and poverty widespread so they don’t have to be infected.   They have defined benefit pensions, haven’t saved a penny in their life, so personal responsibility is not something they’ve ever come to know.

Everyone should be wearing a mask, but God forbid they can’t drink that bottle of wine a night or smoke those packs of cigarettes...why, that would be a police state.

Data about health risks and disease is not something they can understand, they rather fill themselves with a New York Times OP-ED that blames politician/ideologue “XYZ” for their self inflicted misery and unhappiness.

My parents are in a high risk group, but even with that said their chances of survival if infected are better than 50/50.  They are elderly and ill, and fight death off as much as possible considering their destructive behavior.   So much so they haven’t enjoyed life in years.

I find it fascinating people are psychologically OK with destroying their own health, yet demand society massively alter behavior so they can avoid what amounts to a slight increase in risk.  I still can’t wrap my head around it quite frankly.

Perhaps my above example is a poor one as alcoholism is a psychiatric disease.  Otherwise rational and educated people I know have latched onto beliefs that don’t have any rational justification.   Fear doesn’t stop death, but it does stop life.   And worrying doesn’t take away today’s troubles, but it does take away from today’s serenity.

I often read the writings of our Founding Fathers and philosophers like Thoreau and wonder, how did America get here?  On the surface I find it very ugly and spiritually unhealthy.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 05, 2020, 12:45:35 PM
@SwordGuy in my culture that would be a very unusual choice, but of course everyone can make their own choices. A close relative of mine has passed away from Covid-19 and they were basically given that exact prognosis + the information about what their expected quality of life would be afterwards. They chose no ICU and passed away about a week later with their children by their bedside. No ICU had been in their medical directive since they were about 70 and that's pretty common around here. If I was in the situation where I had a 85% odds of dying alone in ICU and 15% of surviving but bedridden in a nursing home I think my choice is clear.
 

Maybe I missed it, but the choice, as I understood it, was 15% life and recovery vs die.     Bedridden in a nursing home would be pretty awful.

The thing is, no one knows exactly how people recover from Covid-19 yet.

But what we do know is that muscle tissue breaks down fast when people are in hospital, that people with Covid-19 often spend weeks in the ICU on ventilators (which is unusually long) - so long that they need to learn how to breath again - that in general 50% of people in the ICU never get back to their previous health levels. So it's unlikely that the survival rate is going to be the same as the recovery rate. And the older people are, the smaller their chances of a good quality of life seem to be. So a previously healthy older person may well end up in a nursing home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on April 05, 2020, 03:52:48 PM
I found it interesting how people reveal themselves when bad things happen, and I won't forget who they really are after this is over.             

The phrase that is used on many of the support forums for people with crappy family members is "When people show/tell you who they are, believe them". When people are stressed and scared, that's when they show you who they really are, they just can't help it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on April 05, 2020, 03:58:41 PM
@SwordGuy in my culture that would be a very unusual choice, but of course everyone can make their own choices. A close relative of mine has passed away from Covid-19 and they were basically given that exact prognosis + the information about what their expected quality of life would be afterwards. They chose no ICU and passed away about a week later with their children by their bedside. No ICU had been in their medical directive since they were about 70 and that's pretty common around here. If I was in the situation where I had a 85% odds of dying alone in ICU and 15% of surviving but bedridden in a nursing home I think my choice is clear.
 

Maybe I missed it, but the choice, as I understood it, was 15% life and recovery vs die.     Bedridden in a nursing home would be pretty awful.

The thing is, no one knows exactly how people recover from Covid-19 yet.

But what we do know is that muscle tissue breaks down fast when people are in hospital, that people with Covid-19 often spend weeks in the ICU on ventilators (which is unusually long) - so long that they need to learn how to breath again - that in general 50% of people in the ICU never get back to their previous health levels. So it's unlikely that the survival rate is going to be the same as the recovery rate. And the older people are, the smaller their chances of a good quality of life seem to be. So a previously healthy older person may well end up in a nursing home.

I saw an article about a 6 year old boy with cystic fibrosis who had coronavirus. It was remarkably uninformative, I couldn't tell if he'd had a mild or severe case. But the thing that went through my mind was at what cost? That boy's lungs were already under assault, and while I know treatments for CF have improved, that doesn't change the underlying baseline of respiratory destruction his body is trying to do. I wonder how many years of health the virus, no matter how severe or mild it was, took from him. I wonder if he'll be dead in 10 years because of the damage. I hope not. We just don't have the data yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 05, 2020, 04:37:56 PM
A tiger at the Bronx zoo has tested for coronavirus.

This is interesting information, especially combined with a recent Chinese study that seems to confirm that Covid-19 can be transmitted to domestic cats.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on April 05, 2020, 04:44:30 PM
That’s not good. Hopefully cats can’t transmit it to us!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on April 05, 2020, 05:18:04 PM


I often read the writings of our Founding Fathers and philosophers like Thoreau and wonder, how did America get here?  On the surface I find it very ugly and spiritually unhealthy.

A prescient Alexis de Tocqueville knew how America would "get here,"  for instance, the ~$22trillion national debt.


"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

"The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens."

"Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom."

 "Nothing is more wonderful than the art of being free, but nothing is harder to learn how to use than freedom."   Alexis de Tocqueville



Wikipedia

Alexis Charles Henri Clérel, comte de Tocqueville, colloquially known as Tocqueville, was a French aristocrat, diplomat, political scientist and historian.

He is best known for his works Democracy in America and The Old Regime and the Revolution.


Born: July 29, 1805, Paris, France
Died: April 16, 1859, Cannes, France
Nationality: French
Education: Lycée Fabert, University of Paris
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SunnyDays on April 06, 2020, 10:30:55 AM
So now a WalMart security guard in Quebec is in critical condition in hospital because some jerk didn't take kindly to being told only either he or his wife, but not both, could enter the store.  He decided that running the guard down with his car was an appropriate response.  He faces a range of charges but not attempted murder, which is what I think he should be.  Hopefully the prison where he is put will have a circulating virus, because the irony would just be perfect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 06, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
@SwordGuy in my culture that would be a very unusual choice, but of course everyone can make their own choices. A close relative of mine has passed away from Covid-19 and they were basically given that exact prognosis + the information about what their expected quality of life would be afterwards. They chose no ICU and passed away about a week later with their children by their bedside. No ICU had been in their medical directive since they were about 70 and that's pretty common around here. If I was in the situation where I had a 85% odds of dying alone in ICU and 15% of surviving but bedridden in a nursing home I think my choice is clear.
 

Maybe I missed it, but the choice, as I understood it, was 15% life and recovery vs die.     Bedridden in a nursing home would be pretty awful.

15% survival rate was based off the earliest small study in Wuhan, China when they were overwhelmed. UK and US studies have survival rates after going on a ventilator of 33-50%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on April 06, 2020, 10:20:26 PM
One thing that really can affect our future is trust between nations.  Now I'm thinking of how medical supplies are shipped around the world - or not shipped.

In the US, there has been some talk confication of stuff headed for other countries from 3M I think, and in Europe one manufacturer (Mölnlycke) had a logtistics center in France which lead to that the French tried to grab a hold of supplies headed for e.g. Italy and Spain.  This French situation seems resolved now, thank god. 

But what will the long term effects be of trust between countries?

I think after this the balance of power in the world will definitely have shifted from the USA to China. That's been going on for a while, but Trump has adopted an America first policy now, while China is generous. They are sending loads of medical supplies to Europe.
snip

How many of them work?

https://dailycaller.com/2020/03/31/list-countries-faulty-coronavirus-supplies-china/
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: pumpkinlantern on April 07, 2020, 01:35:19 AM
A couple of years ago at a medical conference, it was shared that 25% of money spent on medical care in the U.S. is spent on people in the last year of their life.

The US obsession with ventilators is interesting.  It reflects the American approach to health care - spending tons of money and resources with heroic measures at the end of life, but neglecting prevention.  It makes way more sense to approach the problem from the front end and prevent people from getting sick in the first place.  In "normal" life, this would be things like smoking cessation, alcohol in moderation, reducing child poverty/violence, eating healthy/exercise, reducing obesity etc.  In a pandemic, this involves very good public health measures and infection control.  If just a fraction of the trillion of dollars being spent now had been spent on widespread (free) testing, aggressive contact tracing, and isolation (as well as good PPE for health care workers to prevent high-risk spread in hospitals and long-term care facilities), death rates would be low and we wouldn't need massive amounts of money spent on ventilators and economic "stimulus".

For those wondering what the end game is... Given where we are now with widespread community transmission, I think the only option is to "flatten the curve" as much as possible with blunt tools like mass quarantine and shelter in place orders temporarily in order to prevent excessive numbers of people from dying and from overwhelming the health care system (which is what we are doing now).  In order to open up the economy, we need to ramp up testing dramatically (this will be made easier by the new rapid diagnostic tests where we can get results in <1 hr) so that we can isolate the sick to prevent spread (which is what we should have done in the first place but missed the opportunity 1-2 months ago) and allow non-sick people to return to work.  Higher risk groups such as the elderly or immunocompromised will continue some form of self-isolation probably for the next year or so.  If we don't do this, we risk having second or third waves of disease.  Things will finally return to normal once we obtain a working vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: marty998 on April 07, 2020, 03:06:13 AM
A couple of years ago at a medical conference, it was shared that 25% of money spent on medical care in the U.S. is spent on people in the last year of their life.

The US obsession with ventilators is interesting.  It reflects the American approach to health care - spending tons of money and resources with heroic measures at the end of life, but neglecting prevention.

Yeah there's no money in prevention. How will a drug company, or medical device manufacturer, or hospital corporation make billions of dollars profit if everyone is healthy?

That shouldn't be a serious question, but given the system in place it probably is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 07, 2020, 05:07:11 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 07, 2020, 05:41:07 AM
Yeah there's no money in prevention. How will a drug company, or medical device manufacturer, or hospital corporation make billions of dollars profit if everyone is healthy?
As I understand it, there are already some insurance companies giving people discounts if they wear step counters - people who wear step counters tend to do more steps, ie be more active, and when coming from a base of "fuck all", even a small increase can make a big difference. As well, it's been shown that when people are more active they tend to eat better.

This sort of thing could be extended to participation in gym programmes or sports teams, or the person recording their food consumption in some app, or you could scan your health insurance card to get a discount on both food and insurance (after some spending threshold) at nominated healthy food stores - though reporting and privacy issues would be significant, I should think.

It can be done, but it requires imagination, intelligence and effort, traits which are in short supply in the bureaucratic world.


Or you could just socialise healthcare, there's a reason our governments subsidise so many prevention activities, come crashing down on smoking, etc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 07, 2020, 05:58:11 AM
Yeah there's no money in prevention. How will a drug company, or medical device manufacturer, or hospital corporation make billions of dollars profit if everyone is healthy?
As I understand it, there are already some insurance companies giving people discounts if they wear step counters - people who wear step counters tend to do more steps, ie be more active, and when coming from a base of "fuck all", even a small increase can make a big difference. As well, it's been shown that when people are more active they tend to eat better.

This sort of thing could be extended to participation in gym programmes or sports teams, or the person recording their food consumption in some app, or you could scan your health insurance card to get a discount on both food and insurance (after some spending threshold) at nominated healthy food stores - though reporting and privacy issues would be significant, I should think.

It can be done, but it requires imagination, intelligence and effort, traits which are in short supply in the politicalbureaucratic world.


Or you could just socialise healthcare, there's a reason our governments subsidise so many prevention activities, come crashing down on smoking, etc.
FTFY
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 07, 2020, 07:00:31 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time

No way.  Based on my extensive research, I've come up with the following graph of my life:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49746237862_e911fb092e_n.jpg)

A line of best fit (that predicts the future based on past events) shows that I'll never die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 07, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time

No way.  Based on my extensive research, I've come up with the following graph of my life:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49746237862_e911fb092e_n.jpg)

A line of best fit (that predicts the future based on past events) shows that I'll never die.

I had test your data to ensure it was correct.  I only trended out to 250 years but seems that, based on history, I too will live forever
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 07, 2020, 07:40:22 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time

No way.  Based on my extensive research, I've come up with the following graph of my life:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49746237862_e911fb092e_n.jpg)

A line of best fit (that predicts the future based on past events) shows that I'll never die.

I had test your data to ensure it was correct.  I only trended out to 250 years but seems that, based on history, I too will live forever

Thanks for inadvertently getting the “Fame” theme song stuck in my head. “...I’m gonna live forever...baby remember my name...”
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 07, 2020, 07:58:38 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time

No way.  Based on my extensive research, I've come up with the following graph of my life:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49746237862_e911fb092e_n.jpg)

A line of best fit (that predicts the future based on past events) shows that I'll never die.

I had test your data to ensure it was correct.  I only trended out to 250 years but seems that, based on history, I too will live forever

Checks pulse.

So far, so good.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 07, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
I too have impeccable record of not dying. 

(https://i.imgur.com/uU392Px.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 07, 2020, 11:54:38 AM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 07, 2020, 12:05:39 PM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.

Ooohhh. Are you ready? I think I can top those.

Check out this gem that I came across on Facebook the other day:

The Lockdown is permanent... ONLY essential Businesses will be allowed to exist from this point on.

Social distancing is permanent... all social interactions will be done online. This is why Facebook purchased VR company Oculus Rift, and why Elon Musk is developing Brain Computer Interface with Neuralink.

The real reason why they are saying "social distancing" is because the Artificial Intelligence Human Tracking system they have for the 5G roll out requires distance between people to be able to fully track everybody.

This is a KNOWN issue in the tech world with the Human Tracking systems that Crowd Density causes the AI to lose track and has problems identifying people in large groups. They are using the Virus scare tactic in order to push people into the behavior of this so they can get the AI system tracking everybody without failure. (And I do mean EVERYBODY... google SpaceX Starlink).

Current Debt based Economy is going to be allowed to completely Crash with the CoronaVirus Global Lockdown being used as the excuse.

System waiting in the wings to replace it, will be a 100% Digital Currency.

A Universal Basic Income will be available ONLY to those who have taken the Bill Gates backed Digital Implant tied to Vaccine Records.

If you are NOT needed by or qualified to work for businesses classed as 'Essential', you will NOT receive the Universal Basic Income and will be allowed to STARVE.

Point Blank, this is their plan.

You have been warned.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 07, 2020, 12:18:28 PM
Apparently they are bring the virus in by rail


(don't bother checking this on Snopes ... they've already been discredited by foodbabe (https://foodbabe.com/do-you-trust-snopes-you-wont-after-reading-how-they-work-with-monsanto-operatives/comment-page-1/) ;P
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Chaplin on April 07, 2020, 12:20:21 PM
Brought this to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

In this case though it might be a Poe, but certain to be an actual belief in many if not most cases.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 07, 2020, 12:57:48 PM
Apparently they are bring the virus in by rail


(don't bother checking this on Snopes ... they've already been discredited by foodbabe (https://foodbabe.com/do-you-trust-snopes-you-wont-after-reading-how-they-work-with-monsanto-operatives/comment-page-1/) ;P

It's those damned trains that come in straight from China!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: marty998 on April 07, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
Yeah there's no money in prevention. How will a drug company, or medical device manufacturer, or hospital corporation make billions of dollars profit if everyone is healthy?
As I understand it, there are already some insurance companies giving people discounts if they wear step counters - people who wear step counters tend to do more steps, ie be more active, and when coming from a base of "fuck all", even a small increase can make a big difference. As well, it's been shown that when people are more active they tend to eat better.

This sort of thing could be extended to participation in gym programmes or sports teams, or the person recording their food consumption in some app, or you could scan your health insurance card to get a discount on both food and insurance (after some spending threshold) at nominated healthy food stores - though reporting and privacy issues would be significant, I should think.

It can be done, but it requires imagination, intelligence and effort, traits which are in short supply in the politicalbureaucratic world.


Or you could just socialise healthcare, there's a reason our governments subsidise so many prevention activities, come crashing down on smoking, etc.
FTFY

Yes. Because an insurance people wants healthy people paying premiums, instead of unhealthy people. It reduces claims costs, and hence increases profits.

Now if a drug company encouraged people to wean themselves off medication, then I’ll sit up and take notice.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 07, 2020, 05:43:37 PM
Apparently they are bring the virus in by rail


(don't bother checking this on Snopes ... they've already been discredited by foodbabe (https://foodbabe.com/do-you-trust-snopes-you-wont-after-reading-how-they-work-with-monsanto-operatives/comment-page-1/) ;P

She still has an audience?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 07, 2020, 07:23:38 PM
My prediction:  the next shortage will be tinfoil because there are so many who are going to need it for their hats.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 07, 2020, 07:48:34 PM
My prediction:  the next shortage will be tinfoil because there are so many who are going to need it for their hats.

Start a rumor that the 5G towers will fry their brains because of the foil.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 08, 2020, 03:29:45 AM
My prediction:  the next shortage will be tinfoil because there are so many who are going to need it for their hats.

Start a rumor that the 5G towers will fry their brains because of the foil.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/06/at-least-20-uk-phone-masts-vandalised-over-false-5g-coronavirus-claims
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 08, 2020, 09:39:08 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/06/at-least-20-uk-phone-masts-vandalised-over-false-5g-coronavirus-claims

:(

To quote a famous subject line - How  can people be so incredibly stupid?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: the_fixer on April 09, 2020, 10:08:04 AM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.
Good to know that the idiocy is not just isolated to my area.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 15, 2020, 02:39:43 AM
And now suddenly consequences nobody saw coming.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on April 15, 2020, 08:25:49 AM
And now suddenly consequences nobody saw coming.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/)

Natural selection for stupidity sometimes works!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2020, 09:16:14 AM
And now suddenly consequences nobody saw coming.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/14/coronavirus-bishop-who-defied-social-distancing-dies-covid-19/2987693001/)

Natural selection for stupidity sometimes works!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 15, 2020, 11:31:12 AM
Just catching up on this thread... @Villanelle, is there an update on your friend and her father?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: kenmoremmm on April 15, 2020, 11:42:44 AM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 15, 2020, 11:46:29 AM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Not to everyone. A family member has passed away from Covid-19 and we had a very small funeral with 10 people there. Someone was trying to organize a memorial in early June "when all of this is over and all the elderly family members can be there". Sure, in June this is all over and our elderly with serious health issues can safely go to church then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 15, 2020, 11:48:04 AM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Not to everyone. A family member has passed away from Covid-19 and we had a very small funeral with 10 people there. Someone was trying to organize a memorial in early June "when all of this is over and all the elderly family members can be there". Sure, in June this is all over and our elderly with serious health issues can safely go to church then.
Oh, Imma, so sorry for your loss.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2020, 12:01:35 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Not to everyone. A family member has passed away from Covid-19 and we had a very small funeral with 10 people there. Someone was trying to organize a memorial in early June "when all of this is over and all the elderly family members can be there". Sure, in June this is all over and our elderly with serious health issues can safely go to church then.

I'm so sorry, Imma.

And you're absolutely right, this will not be over by June. My family just cancelled its annual summer reunion at the end of July.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Villanelle on April 15, 2020, 12:11:14 PM
Just catching up on this thread... @Villanelle, is there an update on your friend and her father?

Yes!  While they are still fighting tremendous fatigue and have a ways to go, he is home from the hospital and both are recovering.  My other friend, nearly 4 weeks in, also has fairly debilitating fatigue and is still spiking fevers, but she too is improving.  Thanks for askin!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 15, 2020, 12:16:08 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

I don't think it was even apparent to most people that social distancing was necessary at all, much less an extended period. So many people seem to talk like they expect everything to go back to normal as soon as they are allowed out of the house. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had someone bugging me to check when a venue was going to reopen and then get huffy and say they would just find another venue if that one couldn't tell me when it would reopen. As if the venue wouldn't like to have an opening date itself!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 15, 2020, 12:43:38 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Yes, in the same way that we know vaccines work.  Yet people still flood facebook with anti-vax rhetoric, along with flat earth, anti-evolution, climate change, etc.  It's absolutely settled and not really up for debate, but lots of people are in denial.

People around me are still talking about when things are going to be reopened and go "back to normal".  So many people are convinced this is all just a cautious over reaction, and as soon as the governor pulls her head out of her ass and rescinds our stay at home order everything will just "go back to normal".  They talk as if this virus has some shelf life that's about to expire.  We hunker down for a few weeks, and phew, that was tough guys but we did it, virus defeated, let's get back onto our cruise ship and casinos and restaurants, like they are completely unaware that the virus is still ravaging the entire world despite all the lockdowns happening.  Like if you just believe it harder the virus will magically disappear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on April 15, 2020, 12:44:20 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

The emotional pull to get back to "normal", to proceed with life plans is a hard intrinsic pull. I was surprised to find even myself...well, here's a quote from my journal:

So I'm currently trying to adjust my hopes and perception of reality to that time table. That means I probably have at least 8-10 months to live life here before getting serious about moving again. That shouldn't surprise me, but I was a little surprised to find that I think I was internally hoping for just a month or three delay, and that was shaping my hopeful outlook.

What really surprised me is that I was simultaneously strongly believing in a premature public relaxation from social distancing resulting in a second wave of infections, and also hoping to take advantage of the temporary freedom to go ahead and move. Those two ideas don't really belong in the same brain.

And 8-10 months is probably too optimistic for everything being back on track, too. But I'm finding the need to adjust my mental outlook by bits and pieces. From 1 month to 3, to 8-10 more months, and probably eventually 2 years or until the vaccine is widely applied, including to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 15, 2020, 12:52:47 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on April 15, 2020, 01:04:29 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.

Shhhh... I'm still trying to make the adjustment from three months to ten. Then comes two years, THEN maybe I can deal with reality. :)

Don't think I haven't noticed the reports of reinfections... I'm just not fully processing it yet.

One month at a time...

And I no longer have any idea if I'm kidding or not.

I guess the good news is that lots of smart qualified folks world-wide are working on it, and we just need to let science do its thing. They'll come up with an objective way to proceed. Whether the world accepts it or not....
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: dandarc on April 15, 2020, 01:07:50 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.
SARS basically died out before the vaccine was completed. Got pretty far along - funding was abruptly cut in 2010. Common cold is not severe enough to warrant a vaccine.

CoVID-19 hasn't yet died out or mutated to a weaker form yet, and is definitely severe enough to warrant a vaccine. Orders of magnitude worse than the SARS outbreak already, and the end of this initial wave doesn't look particularly near.

Still very early - lots of possibilities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 15, 2020, 01:14:29 PM
Just catching up on this thread... @Villanelle, is there an update on your friend and her father?

Yes!  While they are still fighting tremendous fatigue and have a ways to go, he is home from the hospital and both are recovering.  My other friend, nearly 4 weeks in, also has fairly debilitating fatigue and is still spiking fevers, but she too is improving.  Thanks for askin!
Glad the news is good! I hope they make a complete recovery.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 15, 2020, 01:24:18 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.
SARS basically died out before the vaccine was completed. Got pretty far along - funding was abruptly cut in 2010. Common cold is not severe enough to warrant a vaccine.

CoVID-19 hasn't yet died out or mutated to a weaker form yet, and is definitely severe enough to warrant a vaccine. Orders of magnitude worse than the SARS outbreak already, and the end of this initial wave doesn't look particularly near.

Still very early - lots of possibilities.
Bit in bold: you couldn't prove it by me, I'd be lining up for a vaccine that meant I never had to have another cold in my life.  But as I understand it the severity of the illness is not the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 15, 2020, 01:41:22 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.

I think there are 2 different coronaviruses that cause the common cold, and they account for roughly 25% of cases.  They aren't severe enough to justify the expenses of developing a vaccine, especially when 75% of colds come from other viruses.  Also the immunity conferred from battling the common cold lasts less than a year, so you can still catch the same cold coronavirus every year.  I imagine with a vaccine it would be similar, you'd need to get it reupped at least every year before cold season to maintain immunity, and would likely just get infected by a different virus anyway.

And nobody gives a fuck about SARS.  It had potential to be bad, but it basically just burned out and ended up killing less than 800 people in total worldwide, and we haven't had a reported case since 2004.  No one is prioritizing a vaccine because it's not needed and would largely be a waste of time and resources.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 15, 2020, 01:44:15 PM
If there is a vaccine. One form of the common cold is a corona virus, and we don’t have any vaccine for it. We also don’t have a vaccine for other corona viruses, including SARS.
SARS basically died out before the vaccine was completed. Got pretty far along - funding was abruptly cut in 2010. Common cold is not severe enough to warrant a vaccine.

CoVID-19 hasn't yet died out or mutated to a weaker form yet, and is definitely severe enough to warrant a vaccine. Orders of magnitude worse than the SARS outbreak already, and the end of this initial wave doesn't look particularly near.

Still very early - lots of possibilities.
Bit in bold: you couldn't prove it by me, I'd be lining up for a vaccine that meant I never had to have another cold in my life.  But as I understand it the severity of the illness is not the problem.

Colds are caused by a ton of different viruses though (only 25% are caused by coronaviruses) so you'd need many, many different vaccines to stop them.  And the immunity you get from colds is not long lived, and that would probably also be true of a vaccine. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2020, 01:58:39 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Yes, in the same way that we know vaccines work.  Yet people still flood facebook with anti-vax rhetoric, along with flat earth, anti-evolution, climate change, etc.  It's absolutely settled and not really up for debate, but lots of people are in denial.

People around me are still talking about when things are going to be reopened and go "back to normal".  So many people are convinced this is all just a cautious over reaction, and as soon as the governor pulls her head out of her ass and rescinds our stay at home order everything will just "go back to normal".  They talk as if this virus has some shelf life that's about to expire.  We hunker down for a few weeks, and phew, that was tough guys but we did it, virus defeated, let's get back onto our cruise ship and casinos and restaurants, like they are completely unaware that the virus is still ravaging the entire world despite all the lockdowns happening.  Like if you just believe it harder the virus will magically disappear.

Not to mention all the Covidiots protesting the state capitol and blocking the ambulance entrance to Sparrow Hospital in Lansing today. They don't care. They seem to be incapable of empathy or an understanding that the world is larger than them. I'm legitimately concerned about the number of apparent narcissists and/or sociopaths in our state.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 15, 2020, 02:04:23 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Yes, in the same way that we know vaccines work.  Yet people still flood facebook with anti-vax rhetoric, along with flat earth, anti-evolution, climate change, etc.  It's absolutely settled and not really up for debate, but lots of people are in denial.

People around me are still talking about when things are going to be reopened and go "back to normal".  So many people are convinced this is all just a cautious over reaction, and as soon as the governor pulls her head out of her ass and rescinds our stay at home order everything will just "go back to normal".  They talk as if this virus has some shelf life that's about to expire.  We hunker down for a few weeks, and phew, that was tough guys but we did it, virus defeated, let's get back onto our cruise ship and casinos and restaurants, like they are completely unaware that the virus is still ravaging the entire world despite all the lockdowns happening.  Like if you just believe it harder the virus will magically disappear.

Not to mention all the Covidiots protesting the state capitol and blocking the ambulance entrance to Sparrow Hospital in Lansing today. They don't care. They seem to be incapable of empathy or an understanding that the world is larger than them. I'm legitimately concerned about the number of apparent narcissists and/or sociopaths in our state.

They aren't even wearing masks, I bet if you interviewed them, they would have something to say about a hoax. And I bet they feel emboldened to protest against "that woman" by a certain someone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 15, 2020, 02:10:14 PM
I've had family members tell me this is "the largest partisan hoax of all time".

But then I also have a family member that is a dr in new york, and you've likely seen him on CNN, ABC, etc and he is just the opposite, loudly telling everyone how dangerous this is.  Exactly what you'd expect from a highly intelligent doctor actually working on the front lines.  Amazing that those 2 people with wildly different opinions are so closely related.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2020, 04:49:43 PM
good luck with this:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-suggests-repeated-bouts-of-social-distancing-may-be-needed-until-2022

i can't believe this needed a study. wasn't this readily apparent like even before we ever had a shutdown?

Yes, in the same way that we know vaccines work.  Yet people still flood facebook with anti-vax rhetoric, along with flat earth, anti-evolution, climate change, etc.  It's absolutely settled and not really up for debate, but lots of people are in denial.

People around me are still talking about when things are going to be reopened and go "back to normal".  So many people are convinced this is all just a cautious over reaction, and as soon as the governor pulls her head out of her ass and rescinds our stay at home order everything will just "go back to normal".  They talk as if this virus has some shelf life that's about to expire.  We hunker down for a few weeks, and phew, that was tough guys but we did it, virus defeated, let's get back onto our cruise ship and casinos and restaurants, like they are completely unaware that the virus is still ravaging the entire world despite all the lockdowns happening.  Like if you just believe it harder the virus will magically disappear.

Not to mention all the Covidiots protesting the state capitol and blocking the ambulance entrance to Sparrow Hospital in Lansing today. They don't care. They seem to be incapable of empathy or an understanding that the world is larger than them. I'm legitimately concerned about the number of apparent narcissists and/or sociopaths in our state.

They aren't even wearing masks, I bet if you interviewed them, they would have something to say about a hoax. And I bet they feel emboldened to protest against "that woman" by a certain someone.

Yep. https://www.michiganradio.org/post/frustrated-whitmer-s-stay-home-order-conservative-protesters-gather-capitol?fbclid=IwAR217O8wTgt-9emJNxPxGMdVO5sX2kUwdBE_EbEjH_JQ1FOG4f5l_AAUk44 (https://www.michiganradio.org/post/frustrated-whitmer-s-stay-home-order-conservative-protesters-gather-capitol?fbclid=IwAR217O8wTgt-9emJNxPxGMdVO5sX2kUwdBE_EbEjH_JQ1FOG4f5l_AAUk44)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DaMa on April 15, 2020, 07:07:49 PM
I gave blood at the Red Cross office today.  My appt notification said I'd have to wear a mask during the donation, and if I didn't have one, one would be provided.  There was one person donating when I got there, and he was done before I started.  There were 6 staff.  All but one had those masks that look like hard compressed paper, and they were never removed.  One person had on a black mask that looked like fabric.  She had it over her ears, but the mask was under her chin, not covering her mouth or nose -- for the entire 35 minutes I was there.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 15, 2020, 08:15:38 PM
I think the lockdown measures are now more than is warranted. Daily infections in my state now are at around 10 (total cases around 1300) with nil new fatalities. The vast majority of past fatalities were those aged 70+ and we've only had 13 fatalities overall in my state. And yet they're still talking about more months of lockdown? That's going to cause tens of billions of dollars of economic damage in my state alone which has to be borne partly by those who lose their jobs and partly by those who don't (through higher taxes). I think another 1-2 weeks of lockdown is justified followed by slow easing of most restrictions over the next 3 months so that hospitality and service businesses can resume.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2020, 08:36:02 PM
I think the lockdown measures are now more than is warranted. Daily infections in my state now are at around 10 (total cases around 1300) with nil new fatalities. The vast majority of past fatalities were those aged 70+ and we've only had 13 fatalities overall in my state. And yet they're still talking about more months of lockdown? That's going to cause tens of billions of dollars of economic damage in my state alone which has to be borne partly by those who lose their jobs and partly by those who don't (through higher taxes). I think another 1-2 weeks of lockdown is justified followed by slow easing of most restrictions over the next 3 months so that hospitality and service businesses can resume.

31 days ago the US had about 2,500 confirmed cases.   We were doubling the number of cases in less than 3 days.

1,300 cases would have taken less than days to get to 2,500 before social distancing tool effect.

Be happy it's working in your area.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 15, 2020, 09:03:50 PM
It's now a question of how long it needs to be in effect. I see no justification for it being in effect for months and months from today, unless numbers change.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 15, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
The problem is that by the time you see the numbers changing, it's too late.  With a R0 (multiplication rate) of 2.5, the progression goes like this:

1,300
3,250
8,125
20,313
50,781
126,953
317,383
793,457
1,983,643
4,959,106

Add all those up and you have 8.26 million cases in a matter of months. With a 2-week incubation period during which transmission occurs before symptoms, the disease spreads quietly before exploding all at once.

There is no normal to return to until we have either 1) massive testing and quarantine of infected people, or 2) a vaccine.  Returning to "normal" without one of those options means sentencing a huge number of people to death.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 15, 2020, 09:51:20 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2020, 10:09:26 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 15, 2020, 10:36:02 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 15, 2020, 11:38:11 PM
And just as I post, the Australian government has announced that social isolation measures may be dispensed with in as little as four weeks. States like mine that have particularly harsh lockdown rules have the freedom to relax the extra-harsh rules within those four weeks.

Sounds like commonsense is finally coming into play.

I'm looking forward to being able to see friends and family in person again, not to mention, it'll be nice to take my car out on the road for a blast through the twisties.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 16, 2020, 12:10:09 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about the shit going down in Michigan. What a bunch of misguided idiots. I'd say lock down the state borders and let the virus have its way with them, but I have family there that I like.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Spud on April 16, 2020, 12:33:20 AM
And just as I post, the Australian government has announced that social isolation measures may be dispensed with in as little as four weeks. States like mine that have particularly harsh lockdown rules have the freedom to relax the extra-harsh rules within those four weeks.

Sounds like commonsense is finally coming into play.

I'm looking forward to being able to see friends and family in person again, not to mention, it'll be nice to take my car out on the road for a blast through the twisties.

Australia has been doing something right. Their numbers are some of the best I've seen from anywhere in the world. You may feel that your government has been harsh, but the UK, US and Europe can only dream of being in the position you're in right now. Our numbers are getting worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 16, 2020, 03:38:42 AM
And just as I post, the Australian government has announced that social isolation measures may be dispensed with in as little as four weeks. States like mine that have particularly harsh lockdown rules have the freedom to relax the extra-harsh rules within those four weeks.
Some measures. Maybe.

Don't play the beach party just yet, Bloop.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 16, 2020, 04:16:44 AM
The thing is that the 'prevention' isn't free. It costs workers jobs and it costs the government tax revenue and we'll all be repaying it in some way or another over the next decade, which is why I'm glad the government is taking a sensible approach and looking at loosening restrictions within 4 weeks. Hopefully that is the Goldilocks solution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 16, 2020, 04:41:55 AM
I've often wondered if here in Australia one of the reasons we've gotten off so lightly compared to most other countries, is that most (definitely not all....) our Asian neighbours were taking things a lot more seriously than we were with regards to testing, contact tracing, quarantine, social distancing, etc., and so what THEY did had a very positive flow on effect to us.
If you look at the link Bloop gave, most of our cases were from overseas (not local) - so we must have been doing well and catching a lot before they transferred to the local population, and most of those were from Europe, cruise ships or America. We were probably lucky that the school holidays were over before it spread outside China - otherwise everyone would have picked it up in Bali or Thailand. And I know a number of people cut off overseas holidays early or decided not to go overseas because we were having such a bad fire season.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 16, 2020, 06:08:16 AM
The only way to stop the pandemic available to the world right now is herd immunity through infection. 

There is no other method.  Social distancing and isolation may help keep hospital ICUs and other medical services under maximum capacity but that is the only benefit, and the societal costs are enormous.  Social distancing only delays the inevitable. 

It's good to hope for an effective vaccine, but to date there are no successful vaccines for coronavirus strains.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/the-latest-on-the-coronavirus/
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 16, 2020, 06:09:45 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about the shit going down in Michigan. What a bunch of misguided idiots. I'd say lock down the state borders and let the virus have its way with them, but I have family there that I like.

Thank you for not wanting to punish all of us who live in Michigan for an idiot minority (the governor’s actions have a >70% approval rating). I would be happy to pack all of the protestors into an arena and let them wait it out for 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on April 16, 2020, 06:18:31 AM
Will we die?

Yes we all will.  Just a matter of time

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -Steven Wright
No way.  Based on my extensive research, I've come up with the following graph of my life:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49746237862_e911fb092e_n.jpg)

A line of best fit (that predicts the future based on past events) shows that I'll never die.

I had test your data to ensure it was correct.  I only trended out to 250 years but seems that, based on history, I too will live forever

Checks pulse.

So far, so good.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good" -Steven Wright
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 16, 2020, 06:20:42 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about the shit going down in Michigan. What a bunch of misguided idiots. I'd say lock down the state borders and let the virus have its way with them, but I have family there that I like.

Thank you for not wanting to punish all of us who live in Michigan for an idiot minority (the governor’s actions have a >70% approval rating). I would be happy to pack all of the protestors into an arena and let them wait it out for 2 weeks.

It's like watching natural selection in action, in the most depressing way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 16, 2020, 06:26:03 AM
The only way to stop the pandemic available to the world right now is herd immunity through infection. 

There is no other method.  Social distancing and isolation may help keep hospital ICUs and other medical services under maximum capacity but that is the only benefit, and the societal costs are enormous.  Social distancing only delays the inevitable.
Actually, there is another method. Eliminate it. Somehow, we appear to be doing that, as is New Zealand. That’s why we’re talking about opening up our restrictions in a few weeks. Once three things are in place - more testing (we already are one of the world’s leaders per head of population), 40% of us using a tracking app so they can automatically work out everyone within the range of an infected person for more than 15 minutes, and the ability to quickly lockdown small areas. And we may well open up our borders to each other. Only a very small percentage of either population has had it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on April 16, 2020, 06:26:11 AM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.

Ooohhh. Are you ready? I think I can top those.

Check out this gem that I came across on Facebook the other day:

The Lockdown is permanent... ONLY essential Businesses will be allowed to exist from this point on.

Social distancing is permanent... all social interactions will be done online. This is why Facebook purchased VR company Oculus Rift, and why Elon Musk is developing Brain Computer Interface with Neuralink.

The real reason why they are saying "social distancing" is because the Artificial Intelligence Human Tracking system they have for the 5G roll out requires distance between people to be able to fully track everybody.

This is a KNOWN issue in the tech world with the Human Tracking systems that Crowd Density causes the AI to lose track and has problems identifying people in large groups. They are using the Virus scare tactic in order to push people into the behavior of this so they can get the AI system tracking everybody without failure. (And I do mean EVERYBODY... google SpaceX Starlink).

Current Debt based Economy is going to be allowed to completely Crash with the CoronaVirus Global Lockdown being used as the excuse.

System waiting in the wings to replace it, will be a 100% Digital Currency.

A Universal Basic Income will be available ONLY to those who have taken the Bill Gates backed Digital Implant tied to Vaccine Records.

If you are NOT needed by or qualified to work for businesses classed as 'Essential', you will NOT receive the Universal Basic Income and will be allowed to STARVE.

Point Blank, this is their plan.

You have been warned.

Good one. This is my conspiracy theory, and ties into the Matrix/everything is a simulation conspiracy theory. The Master computer was designed with enough memory/processing speed to create simulations for only a certain number of people like 6 billion. Our population is gone past whatever that number is, and when that happens people will increasingly see "glitches" in the simulation. To avoid that simulation emergency backup is to have the virus lock down, have everyone stay at home, which decreases interactions and needed memory/processing speed etc. If that conspiracy theory is true then yes the lockdown will be permanent with us transitioning to people only interacting virtually as that drastically reduces memory processing demands. 
Either that or they will do a reboot, and scale down resolutions for everyone so everything works properly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 16, 2020, 06:30:08 AM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.

Ooohhh. Are you ready? I think I can top those.

Check out this gem that I came across on Facebook the other day:

The Lockdown is permanent... ONLY essential Businesses will be allowed to exist from this point on.

Social distancing is permanent... all social interactions will be done online. This is why Facebook purchased VR company Oculus Rift, and why Elon Musk is developing Brain Computer Interface with Neuralink.

The real reason why they are saying "social distancing" is because the Artificial Intelligence Human Tracking system they have for the 5G roll out requires distance between people to be able to fully track everybody.

This is a KNOWN issue in the tech world with the Human Tracking systems that Crowd Density causes the AI to lose track and has problems identifying people in large groups. They are using the Virus scare tactic in order to push people into the behavior of this so they can get the AI system tracking everybody without failure. (And I do mean EVERYBODY... google SpaceX Starlink).

Current Debt based Economy is going to be allowed to completely Crash with the CoronaVirus Global Lockdown being used as the excuse.

System waiting in the wings to replace it, will be a 100% Digital Currency.

A Universal Basic Income will be available ONLY to those who have taken the Bill Gates backed Digital Implant tied to Vaccine Records.

If you are NOT needed by or qualified to work for businesses classed as 'Essential', you will NOT receive the Universal Basic Income and will be allowed to STARVE.

Point Blank, this is their plan.

You have been warned.

Good one. This is my conspiracy theory, and ties into the Matrix/everything is a simulation conspiracy theory. The Master computer was designed with enough memory/processing speed to create simulations for only a certain number of people like 6 billion. Our population is gone past whatever that number is, and when that happens people will increasingly see "glitches" in the simulation. To avoid that simulation emergency backup is to have the virus lock down, have everyone stay at home, which decreases interactions and needed memory/processing speed etc. If that conspiracy theory is true then yes the lockdown will be permanent with us transitioning to people only interacting virtually as that drastically reduces memory processing demands. 
Either that or they will do a reboot, and scale down resolutions for everyone so everything works properly.

If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 16, 2020, 06:31:19 AM
The only way to stop the pandemic available to the world right now is herd immunity through infection. 

There is no other method.  Social distancing and isolation may help keep hospital ICUs and other medical services under maximum capacity but that is the only benefit, and the societal costs are enormous.  Social distancing only delays the inevitable.
Actually, there is another method. Eliminate it. Somehow, we appear to be doing that, as is New Zealand. That’s why we’re talking about opening up our restrictions in a few weeks. Once three things are in place - more testing (we already are one of the world’s leaders per head of population), 40% of us using a tracking app so they can automatically work out everyone within the range of an infected person for more than 15 minutes, and the ability to quickly lockdown small areas. And we may well open up our borders to each other. Only a very small percentage of either population has had it.

Very interesting.  I hope it works.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on April 16, 2020, 06:37:52 AM
Hard to top the statements from these idiots who posted on my local NextDoor forum:

"I won't be staying home.  I will be exercising my constitutional rights.  If you want to stay home feel free to do so but stop encouraging these tyrants undermining the liberty of innocent people. …"

"Fear mongering.  Are you aware the government lies?"

and my personal favorite:  "Bill Gates funded this virus."

No words.

Ooohhh. Are you ready? I think I can top those.

Check out this gem that I came across on Facebook the other day:

The Lockdown is permanent... ONLY essential Businesses will be allowed to exist from this point on.

Social distancing is permanent... all social interactions will be done online. This is why Facebook purchased VR company Oculus Rift, and why Elon Musk is developing Brain Computer Interface with Neuralink.

The real reason why they are saying "social distancing" is because the Artificial Intelligence Human Tracking system they have for the 5G roll out requires distance between people to be able to fully track everybody.

This is a KNOWN issue in the tech world with the Human Tracking systems that Crowd Density causes the AI to lose track and has problems identifying people in large groups. They are using the Virus scare tactic in order to push people into the behavior of this so they can get the AI system tracking everybody without failure. (And I do mean EVERYBODY... google SpaceX Starlink).

Current Debt based Economy is going to be allowed to completely Crash with the CoronaVirus Global Lockdown being used as the excuse.

System waiting in the wings to replace it, will be a 100% Digital Currency.

A Universal Basic Income will be available ONLY to those who have taken the Bill Gates backed Digital Implant tied to Vaccine Records.

If you are NOT needed by or qualified to work for businesses classed as 'Essential', you will NOT receive the Universal Basic Income and will be allowed to STARVE.

Point Blank, this is their plan.

You have been warned.

Good one. This is my conspiracy theory, and ties into the Matrix/everything is a simulation conspiracy theory. The Master computer was designed with enough memory/processing speed to create simulations for only a certain number of people like 6 billion. Our population is gone past whatever that number is, and when that happens people will increasingly see "glitches" in the simulation. To avoid that simulation emergency backup is to have the virus lock down, have everyone stay at home, which decreases interactions and needed memory/processing speed etc. If that conspiracy theory is true then yes the lockdown will be permanent with us transitioning to people only interacting virtually as that drastically reduces memory processing demands. 
Either that or they will do a reboot, and scale down resolutions for everyone so everything works properly.

If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???

I think character traits were generated using a probablistic matter so it's crap shoot (but given you read this forum you probably have higher than average intelligence). Most games have easter eggs and hidden power ups, so who knows maybe if you can find one of those you will suddenly be a 20 year old supermodel with a million in the bank? I think Leo Decaprio found one of them. Keanu Reeves found the everlasting youth easter egg   ; )   Oh no! Trump found the Big Boss module. We are screwed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on April 16, 2020, 06:45:38 AM
The only way to stop the pandemic available to the world right now is herd immunity through infection. 

Tell that to South Korea.

Maybe we should all import South Koreans to run our pandemic responses?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 16, 2020, 08:32:35 AM
If you say so, egillepsie. Good luck with that.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/australia-on-course-to-eliminate-covid-19-modelling-shows-20200416-p54kjh.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 16, 2020, 09:01:12 AM
Along with the unnecessary lockdowns in areas that aren't experiencing exponential growth, I'd like to add a few more complaints.

Why did I have to spend money on a new roof? It's not even raining in my living room!
Why did I have to install a new furnace? It's not even cold in my house!
Why did I have to change my engines oil? My engine has NEVER even ceased up!
Also what a fucking waste of money these shoes are, my feet never even get blisters.

I'm sick of people I talk to shitting on the lockdown measures taken by various places and using the same argument.  Such a waste of time and money to lockdown california because they aren't even experiencing a crazy outbreak like new york is, but the thought doesn't even occur to them that it's precisely because of the seemingly over restrictive lockdown measures. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on April 16, 2020, 09:07:53 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about the shit going down in Michigan. What a bunch of misguided idiots. I'd say lock down the state borders and let the virus have its way with them, but I have family there that I like.

Thank you for not wanting to punish all of us who live in Michigan for an idiot minority (the governor’s actions have a >70% approval rating). I would be happy to pack all of the protestors into an arena and let them wait it out for 2 weeks.

My parents are in Michigan. They think the actions are overblown, but at the same time they've been cowed by the death toll and converting Cobo to a hospital. Thus, they're staying in. They want to go out, but are too scared to do even what they're allowed to do - yard work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 16, 2020, 09:09:48 AM
Straw man argument. No one's saying a lockdown wasn't necessary, but we're asking when it can be relaxed.

Note also that there are countries that have had more or less degrees of lockdown so it's not necessary for a "full" lockdown.

Easy to order a full lockdown in order to save lives but you also have to look at the economic cost of that lockdown including millions of unemployed and the problems - including suicides - that might bring down the track.

Today my state recorded an amazing total of *2* new cases of coronavirus. Out of 5 million. The whole country recorded 24. Out of 25 million. We are talking about continuing the lockdown for another 4 weeks. I'm not at all convinced that it is necessary; a few weeks ago we were talking about 3-6 months of lockdown, so clearly the situation is in flux, and I'm glad the brains trust is willing to reconsider timeframes as we go along.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 16, 2020, 09:10:57 AM
Along with the unnecessary lockdowns in areas that aren't experiencing exponential growth, I'd like to add a few more complaints.

Why did I have to spend money on a new roof? It's not even raining in my living room!
Why did I have to install a new furnace? It's not even cold in my house!
Why did I have to change my engines oil? My engine has NEVER even ceased up!
Also what a fucking waste of money these shoes are, my feet never even get blisters.

I'm sick of people I talk to shitting on the lockdown measures taken by various places and using the same argument.  Such a waste of time and money to lockdown california because they aren't even experiencing a crazy outbreak like new york is, but the thought doesn't even occur to them that it's precisely because of the seemingly over restrictive lockdown measures.

^^^ This.

We were warned that people would complain about the lockdowns being too restrictive once they actually started achieving the intended goal. And now we're seeing examples both in this thread and in our own state.

Fewer deaths and less medical system overload than predicted WAS THE ENTIRE POINT and a successful outcome. None of these measures are intended to go on forever, but the more people refuse to cooperate and help each other, the longer we're going to be all stuck and the longer it will take to get back to some semblance of normalcy.

We also need to prepare for the significant possibility of future waves of lockdowns, if Hokkaido prefecture in Japan is an indicator: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52305055 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52305055)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 16, 2020, 09:13:21 AM

....

I'm sick of people I talk to shitting on the lockdown measures taken by various places and using the same argument.  Such a waste of time and money to lockdown california because they aren't even experiencing a crazy outbreak like new york is, but the thought doesn't even occur to them that it's precisely because of the seemingly over restrictive lockdown measures.

I saw this on my twitter feed this morning which sums things up nicely
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on April 16, 2020, 09:15:17 AM
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 16, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray

That will be a very welcome event in my area. Hopefully we can start opening things on a limited and cautious basis fairly soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 16, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
Straw man argument. No one's saying a lockdown wasn't necessary, but we're asking when it can be relaxed.

Note also that there are countries that have had more or less degrees of lockdown so it's not necessary for a "full" lockdown.

Easy to order a full lockdown in order to save lives but you also have to look at the economic cost of that lockdown including millions of unemployed and the problems - including suicides - that might bring down the track.

Today my state recorded an amazing total of *2* new cases of coronavirus. Out of 5 million. The whole country recorded 24. Out of 25 million. We are talking about continuing the lockdown for another 4 weeks. I'm not at all convinced that it is necessary; a few weeks ago we were talking about 3-6 months of lockdown, so clearly the situation is in flux, and I'm glad the brains trust is willing to reconsider timeframes as we go along.

My post wasn't directed at you specifically, but yes plenty of people actually are saying a lockdown wasn't/isn't necessary.

It sounds like your states mitigation strategy is working remarkably well.  Hopefully they are actually performing sufficient tests and you are getting a representative picture of what's actually happening.  Part of the problem is that there is no going back and getting a do over.  Italy, Spain, New York, none of those places can go back in time and implement restrictive lockdowns earlier and more effectively, and they can't pause what's going on.  It's an out of control situation and the best case scenario is to shut everything down and hopefully get it under control, and by under control I mean stop the exponential spread of the disease and deal with the pile of death they they already have and know they will continue to have for many weeks as currently infected people continue to die. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 16, 2020, 09:33:22 AM
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Where? It ain't happening in my state and we don't want it to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 16, 2020, 09:36:00 AM
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 16, 2020, 09:43:12 AM
If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???


Maybe you were, but the simulation has hidden this fact from other people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 16, 2020, 09:49:20 AM
My prediction wild ass guess for my Province:  about two weeks from now the Gov't will mandate masks for people out in public.  At same time they will start to allow business to reopen, with exception of sit down restaurants (quite difficult to eat a meal with a mask on). 

To me, this would make far more sense than the haphazard closures going on right now.  eg.  transit is exempt from the social distancing rules but the bus stop is not (they handed out fines to people in a bus shelter for not maintaining 6' from each other ... 10 mins later these same people would be sitting next to each other on the bus!), construction sites are still operating (6 guys crammed into a truck together driving to the site, then need to "try" an maintain distance while working.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 16, 2020, 09:59:32 AM
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BNgarden on April 16, 2020, 10:07:58 AM
Infection rate maths from Germany, which can do 650,000 tests per week for a population of 83.2 million (2019).  (And Germany has more ICU beds per population than USA, I think?)

Enlightening, sub-titled part of a press conference w Angela Merkel:
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1250682200640704519 (https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1250682200640704519)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 16, 2020, 10:20:11 AM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 16, 2020, 10:45:10 AM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 16, 2020, 10:50:42 AM
For sweden, another factoid from the resturant business:

Many resturants here have "epidemic insurance", which will pay out if they are forced to close by the authorities in situations like this.  Since no closure is mandated yet, noone has gotten a cent from these insurances yet.  There has also been language analysis - are they even covered, this is a pandemic, not an epidemic outbreak...

Oh well.  Time will tell. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on April 16, 2020, 10:56:05 AM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

Thanks for reporting on the true situation in Sweden. I hope you all stay safe!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 16, 2020, 11:02:26 AM
Thanks for reporting on the true situation in Sweden. I hope you all stay safe!

You too.  We're all in this together now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Jouer on April 16, 2020, 01:23:52 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on April 16, 2020, 01:36:43 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.

I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it.

Article of interest. Someone might have already posted upthread.  I have no idea how accurate it is...

https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on April 16, 2020, 01:47:36 PM
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Also, if they were the same size as the US, they`d have about half the number of cases
(12,500 Cases, pop 10M) (pop 328M = 400,000 cases)
Deaths: 1,333  - if they were USA sized, 42656

How about that death count? Scarier now? That would be more than the USA. So they have deaths in currently higher proportion than the states.

Modified to change the numbers for todays, I was a week behind.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bacchi on April 16, 2020, 01:51:03 PM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...

Deaths per 1M

Sweden 132
Norway 28
Finland 14

That's a pretty big difference. The Swedes are apparently fine with that but it doesn't mean that lockdowns don't work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 16, 2020, 02:00:46 PM
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Right. Our municipal and state governments started asking people to stay home 5 weeks ago. For the following 2 weeks until all non-essential businesses were ordered to close/work from home, my husband's hobby store was making in-store sale numbers on par with (and on a couple of days, exceeding) Black Friday. The local parks systems have had to close increasing numbers of amenities, including bathrooms, because people were having parties. In other words, people were not staying home of their own accord and now we have a major outbreak in metro Detroit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 16, 2020, 05:32:39 PM
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be.

Why would our growth curve turn into the next Italy or Spain when it was nothing like that to begin with? Are you saying somehow the response the second time around would be tardier and less effective than the first time around (when we were less prepared and a bit late on the draw)?

Not every country follows that curve. It's ridiculous to say that in a country where we flattened the curve in about 10 days that the second wave would somehow turn us into Italy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 16, 2020, 06:01:15 PM
That's not the growth curve for my state and it wasn't the curve even prior to the lockdown measures being put into place.

Sweden has no lockdown and while its deaths are higher, it's nowhere near the sort of curve suggested above.

The growth curve also doesn't stay as a set exponential function. It levels off quickly even with soft measures in place.
I tracked the national growth curve from March 13th for over 2 weeks, when the distancing measures started to kick in.   We were doubling in three days that whole time.    Testing still hadn't gotten off the ground.    That growth curve was consistent with the growth curve other countries had when they didn't have social distancing measures in place.

No, it's really not consistent with most other countries' growth curves. You're picking American statistics which are just about the worst in the world. Here in Australia, the doubling rate only kept up for about 3 days and then the exponential growth ceased. After that the curve went essentially linear and within 11 days of the first signs of "exponential" growth, we had already crested the wave of infections and they began tailing off significantly.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers

Nor has Sweden with non-lockdown measures been subject to such a growth curve.

Keeping in mind I didn't advocate for nil measures at all - but rather a slow release from full lockdown.

You keep mentioning Sweden as not having a lock-down. Sure. But their activity rate is 30% of normal. So even without govt regulated lock-down, Swede's are staying the fuck home out of it.
What Swedes are that we aren't is obedient. They are smart, they see what's going on in the world and they're staying the fuck home without being told to. See the difference? A lot of people in Michigan sure don't. And then there was that Bishop in Virginia...


Edited to fix sequence. Thanks,  LT!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on April 16, 2020, 06:01:53 PM
@Dicey  you hid your message in the quote
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Travis on April 16, 2020, 06:14:25 PM
Straw man argument. No one's saying a lockdown wasn't necessary, but we're asking when it can be relaxed.

Note also that there are countries that have had more or less degrees of lockdown so it's not necessary for a "full" lockdown.

Easy to order a full lockdown in order to save lives but you also have to look at the economic cost of that lockdown including millions of unemployed and the problems - including suicides - that might bring down the track.

Today my state recorded an amazing total of *2* new cases of coronavirus. Out of 5 million. The whole country recorded 24. Out of 25 million. We are talking about continuing the lockdown for another 4 weeks. I'm not at all convinced that it is necessary; a few weeks ago we were talking about 3-6 months of lockdown, so clearly the situation is in flux, and I'm glad the brains trust is willing to reconsider timeframes as we go along.

It sounds like whatever you're doing is working. Maybe a little bit longer and it'll burn out? You mentioned your state, how's the rest of the country look? Here in Korea we declared the curve "flat" a week or so ago when we reached 80-100 infections per day.  We're now down into the 20s.  We're easing up on certain on-base businesses and facilities being open starting this weekend, but some folks immediately jumped to asking "well when can everything else be opened?"  Be patient people!  Nearly all of us here are US government salaried employees so the economic impacts are substantially less than the rest of the population.  The last thing you want in this scenario is a relapse, because then you get to start from scratch.  I haven't seen anyone in my social/work circle claiming the restrictions weren't useful, but some of them have an unhealthy desire to return to normal.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 16, 2020, 06:30:53 PM
Put it this way, if we relax lockdowns so that businesses can resume (but we still ban mass gatherings), the situation will be better than it was pre-lockdown. And we will have much better ability to tailor the stage of lockdown based on new data. And we are doing very well with expanding the testing regime to get better results.

Pre-lockdown, even with the accelerated spread of the disease and none of the above advantages, Australia still had only 63 deaths in total - the vast majority of whom were aged 70+. It still took us only 3 weeks to go from the initial exponential growth stage to the rapid decay stage.

So let's say we relax lockdown a little early and it causes a resurgence - okay, maybe that'll be another 3 week cycle, and that might be 30, 40 more deaths before the reinstituted lockdown plus the increased testing regime gets it under control again? We need to calculate that against the economic cost of say a full-scale 3-6 month lockdown which would have 10-20% of Australians out of work for months and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

We do calculations of human mortality versus cost all the time (e.g. - speed limits) so it is a worthwhile exercise. Anyway, I have faith in our country's brains trust. As I said I think they have been appropriately responsive to the situation.

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.  Then you turn into the next Italy, or Iran, or Spain, or France, or New York,..  This really begs the question of why every place that's having a major outbreak didn't just realize it and implement appropriate and effective lockdown measures before it spiraled out of control? Probably because it's not nearly as obvious and simplistic as you're making it out to be. 
I’m with @Bloop Bloop on this. Let’s look at where bloop and I live. Australia. We have more testing per head of population than many other countries. Most cases have been from overseas, with a lot fewer internal cases (even though we’ve done so much testing). We have had 61 deaths, and just over 6000 cases in total, so we have a lower death rate per case detected than most other places (which also means that we are testing pretty well). We are currently down to less than 50 cases a day in the entire country.  We have effective lockdown measures that have worked.   We have one of the best health care systems in the world, and our politicians and health care system have been working together well during this emergency. We are working on measures that will work when lockdown is lifted in a few weeks - it’s not going to be lifted without measures in place.

However, we may have been too good in our response. It looks like we may have eliminated it from the country before we lift lockdown. That means that we’ll need to be very careful about letting anyone visit us, because we definitely won’t have herd immunity (if that even works).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 16, 2020, 07:03:12 PM

You need widespread, accurate testing to be acting as a smoke detector so you can immediately snuff out any outbreaks before they happen using targeted isolation and quarantine as your fire extinguisher.  Without that you are unlikely to notice an outbreak before it engulfs a portion of your society and your fire extinguisher is no longer useful.

We started off slack, but Australia is now testing fairly well. With the drop in active cases, there was a brief drop in testing - so they loosened the criteria. Basically anyone with cold or flu type symptoms can now get tested. My state of Victoria did 2,700 tests yesterday and got 1 new case out of it.


As well, there's a "flu tracker" system, where people report any flu-type symptoms. About 60,000 people are signed up for it, it's not a diagnostic tool, it's just a barometer for the seasonal flu - if a large chunk of those people report symptoms, then the health authorities know to prepare the wards for an influx of seasonal flu patients, and/or start hammering seasonal flu vaccines hard.

Anyway, the flu tracker app has shown a massive decline vs same time last year of flu symptoms; obviously the lockdown stopping the spread of covid has stopped the spread of seasonal flu, too. The point is that the Flu Tracker app which acts as a warning for seasonal flu can also act as a warning for covid. Even if we weren't testing, that'd help.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/coronavirus-numbers-flu-tracking-data/12134082 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/coronavirus-numbers-flu-tracking-data/12134082)

It can be done.


With 129 active cases in Victoria and 32 in hospital, just 97 people are sick at home; they will only be able to infect those they share the household with, if they haven't already (we don't know if those 97 are in 97 single apartments, or 20 five bedroom homes).

And the Chief Medical Officer has said he believes our testing has captured at least 84% of those infected, so there's at most another 18 people outside that group who don't know they're infected, and who could possibly infect others.

Currently our political leaders are struggling to deal with the success of what they've done so far. "The Premier said (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/coronavirus-victorian-cases-rise-by-just-one/12156328) while today's numbers were good, community transmission remained a challenge." What, the 0-18 of them? They keep threatening further restrictions and having people fined for sitting on a park bench alone eating a kebab. But you know, politicians.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: js82 on April 16, 2020, 07:16:11 PM
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 16, 2020, 10:30:44 PM
Scandinavian countries in general are much more adult about how the whole government thing works. Can you see Trump asking people to stay home, and then have everyone follow it immediately?

Note not an order, just fact-based recommendation that everyone should do. No way all the population would follow it, so it`s hard to compare any country to Sweden.

Right. Our municipal and state governments started asking people to stay home 5 weeks ago. For the following 2 weeks until all non-essential businesses were ordered to close/work from home, my husband's hobby store was making in-store sale numbers on par with (and on a couple of days, exceeding) Black Friday. The local parks systems have had to close increasing numbers of amenities, including bathrooms, because people were having parties. In other words, people were not staying home of their own accord and now we have a major outbreak in metro Detroit.

I've been noticing more and more traffic every day for the last 2 weeks.

(https://i.ibb.co/Lpt7hBN/FB-IMG-1586572600771.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 16, 2020, 11:54:11 PM
@Dicey  you hid your message in the quote
Fixed it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 17, 2020, 04:56:06 AM
If I'm in the Matrix, I'd like to register a major fucking complaint about my simulation please. For a start, why was I not born a genetic supermodel???


Maybe you were, but the simulation has hidden this fact from other people.

Hell, it's even hidden from me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 17, 2020, 05:21:54 AM
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: js82 on April 17, 2020, 05:44:17 AM
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?

Here's what you're missing:

Published work or not, 4 people coughing over petri dishes isn't a useful experiment for determining the effectiveness of marks at a population level.  It simply doesn't have the scale to properly assess the magnitude of an effect.  Something doesn't have to completely shut off transmission to be useful.

These articles are using a poor definition of "ineffective", and aren't measuring it in a way that truly assesses impact on macro-level transmission rates.

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.


The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 17, 2020, 06:03:20 AM
Speaking of people being stupid....

If we're going to attempt to reopen the economy without causing a public health train wreck, people need to take this seriously.  Seriously, as in wearing a damn mask(you know the one you can make with a couple dollars worth of fabric and a few rubber bands) when you're out in public, and trying to adhere to the social distancing protocols that have been put in place.

I went grocery shopping today.  Half the people weren't wearing masks(this is currently mandated in my state).  At least that many were disregarding traffic flow guidelines intended to keep people spaced out.

A lot of people aren't getting it, and it's pissing me off.  The more we do the little things right, the more we can open up without creating a public health disaster.  The who lack of consideration for others just makes me angry.

What aren't a lot of people getting?  How effective are the masks at reducing virus transmission? 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

That was the science from 4 weeks ago.  Whether masks are effective significantly reducing disease transmission is not a certainty at this point.

This is the science from 4 days ago:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

Quite frankly, masks may not be effective.  In fact, they may assist in disease progression as more viral matter exists on the outside of the mask.

What about goggles?  It's possible to get infected through the eye.  Should I be angry at you for not wearing goggles?

What about a child playing in a park?  Prominent epidemiologists say the parks should be open, that it is unlikely disease will spread in a park.

What about the obese?  Outside of the risks associated with age, science is indicating obesity is the number one risk factor for COVID severity and complications.  If people took better care of themselves we might not be in this mess.  Should we be angry at them?

Here's what you're missing:

Published work or not, 4 people coughing over petri dishes isn't a useful experiment for determining the effectiveness of marks at a population level.  It simply doesn't have the scale to properly assess the magnitude of an effect.  Something doesn't have to completely shut off transmission to be useful.

These articles are using a poor definition of "ineffective", and aren't measuring it in a way that truly assesses impact on macro-level transmission rates.

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.


The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.

I agree.  The study was very small and quite frankly the results could be wrong.  But then again, they could be right.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

What about that opinion.  Are they wrong?

If masks promote disease progression then people wearing masks are encouraging the spread.  It's possible, isn't it? 

Common sense isn't so common.  I try to base my knowledge on science whenever I can, knowing full well that sometimes I'm wrong because I have the same biases and distortions that everyone else has.  However, I spent a large chunk of my life basing my decisions on insecurity an fear, and that is where the destructive irrationality and behavior is more likely to occur.   Science isn't perfect, but it's all we've got, it's a lot better than reacting to myths, politicians or virtue signaling. 

If the placebo effect reduces anxiety and promotes more normal behavior I'm all for it, but until science shows masks are useful (which it probably won't), you won't see me wearing one.  Governor Cuomo will have to find someone else to manipulate...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: js82 on April 17, 2020, 06:19:02 AM
I agree.  The study was very small and quite frankly the results could be wrong.  But then again, they could be right.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

What about that opinion.  Are they wrong?

If masks promote disease progression then people wearing masks are encouraging the spread.  It's possible, isn't it? 

Common sense isn't so common.  I try to base my knowledge on science whenever I can, knowing full well that sometimes I'm wrong because I have the same biases and distortions that everyone else has.  However, I spent a large chunk of my life basing my decisions on insecurity an fear, and that is where the destructive irrationality and behavior is more likely to occur.   Science isn't perfect, but it's all we've got, it's a lot better than reacting to myths, politicians or virtue signaling. 

If the placebo effect reduces anxiety and promotes more normal behavior I'm all for it, but until science shows masks are useful (which it probably won't), you won't see me wearing one.  Governor Cuomo will have to find someone else to manipulate...

The issue is summarized in one line:

Quote
We found no well-designed studies of cloth masks as source control in household or healthcare settings.

The problem is it's really damn hard to do a study on the effectiveness of masks as source control, as opposed to personal protection.  Looking at their protective effect for the user is much more straightforward - but the only ways to really assess the effectiveness of source control is to look at an isolated population using the methodology, and compare them with another population that isn't.  Very difficult to do that on the scale needed to get useful data.

More realistically, it's possible to model the projection of droplets from someone wearing a mask/not wearing a mask.  This could either be done through numerical simulation, or some data could be gathered via various imaging techniques (either looking for droplets, and/or tracing the path of exhaled CO2).

Intuitively, I'd expect a mask to reduce the distance that I could project droplets during a cough(and the quantity that would escape).  The larger ones are likely to hit the mask and stick; some of the smaller ones will likely go around and waft through the air(these ones aren't being projected as much as moving with air currents in the environment).  It's a very reasonable expectation that the total number/volume of airborne droplets would be reduced(but not eliminated) by the cloth mask.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Laura33 on April 17, 2020, 07:40:33 AM
Why would our growth curve turn into the next Italy or Spain when it was nothing like that to begin with?

Averages hide tremendous variability.  In the US, some specific areas are "Italy"; others are just fine.  The key is going to be how quickly we can shut down new outbreaks before they get out of control in specific hotspots.  We here in the US are behind that curve; sounds like Australia has much better systems in place.

I think the fundamental problem is that a huge part of the general public has trouble conceiving what exponential growth actually means.  This disease can hide for up to 14 days before you even know you're sick -- average incubation period I think is 5-6 days -- and yet you can be infecting others that whole time.  When you're in the peak of it, cases tend to double every 3 days or so.  That means that from the time you get exposed and start contaminating people to the time you (on average) will even know you're sick, the number of cases in your area could quadruple.  That's why/how/when hospitals get overwhelmed and the death rate skyrockets.  I saw one analysis that says acting two weeks earlier cuts the death rate of an outbreak by 90%, and one week earlier by 60%.  That's just a projection, of course; we can't really know.  But it illustrates how quickly this thing goes from zero to epidemic.  So unless/until we get some sort of early testing, the only way to control the spread is to impose serious restrictions long before most people think they are needed, and keep them in place long after most people think everything's ok.

With respect to masks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJvU81DKgk.  It's not about protecting yourself; it's about protecting other people from what you may have but not even know yet.  No, it's not perfect; we all have to breathe, and that air needs to go somewhere.  But wearing a mask of any sort limits how far you project droplets when you cough of sneeze, which will protect people a couple feet away from you.  In addition, there is suggestive evidence that the severity of the disease may be affected by virus load -- that is, that someone who has passing contact with the virus may get a less severe version than someone who is inundated with the little buggers.  So if you end up standing close to someone for a few minutes, you're probably better off if they have a mask on even if they do pass it on, because the smaller exposure is more likely to result in a mild illness. 

I think with all of these decisions, you need to weigh the potential benefits (magnitude of benefits x degree of certainty that you're right and it's actually going to happen) against the burden involved.  There is clearly a huge burden in shutting down the economy.  OTOH, the burden of putting a damn bandana across your face to protect your friends and neighbors is pretty small.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on April 17, 2020, 11:16:12 AM
Initially I was against wearing masks/bandanas for multiple reasons. That n95 masks should be going to medical or other personnel who have much higher exposure risk. That cloth masks have a fraction of filtering ability that a n95 mask (and a n95% actually only filters 95% of particles). Also that people who wear masks may relax in their 6 foot distancing behavior, which would kind of invalidate the whole thing.

I read a very good blog, which of course I can't find. But it reviewed that that measures that make incremental changes in transmitability, have big effects on the population level. 

What I do: when I go outside such as for a walk I avoid people and don't wear a mask. Often I don't even walk in the track but walk in the grassy areas to give everyone a wide berth. Same thing on porch, backyard.
If I am going into a store where it is unlikely I can maintain 6 foot distancing or where essentially it is a highly populated area where I'm repeatedly walking through other people's airspace, I wear a mask.

Contact with the virus and transmissibility is not an all or none thing. The likelihood of getting infected depends on the titer (dose) you get. There is some limited evidence that those who were exposed to higher titers, have more serious disease/outcomes.

So for me it's not all or nothing. I am not really doing it for "me." If I'm exposed to someone who gets in my airspace and is virulent, it is of limited protection. But I keep thinking I want to do SOMETHING for all the medical and healthcare workers who are on the front line, some places who are overwhelmed. It's a small thing I can do, and may mean that some parts of the US may open up sooner than if people were not wearing masks.



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: elaine amj on April 17, 2020, 11:20:29 AM
The worrisome thing is that superspreader events can and have happened. A single asymptomatic person infecting so many more.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 17, 2020, 11:37:37 AM
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 17, 2020, 11:41:51 AM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.
The other is that the level of shared agreement about what's best for everyone, and the willingness of individuals to do what's best for everyone, is much higher there than other places. So if you bring in milder limitations and people follow them, you don't need stronger.
The Italians brought in milder restrictions first, they were ignored by a substantial part of the population, so they had to go full lockdown.
I'm sure the Swedes have many uncounted COVID cases, like nearly all other places. But I suspect their culture of physical distancing has helped control spread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 17, 2020, 11:49:03 AM
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”

Who is conducting these tests and are they reliable?  It seems like I've read dozen of articles about antibody testing and the general conclusion is always that they can't get reliable results yet, which is why nearly every country keeps talking about it but none have actually implemented it.  Color me skeptical that this single non-peer reviewed study has accomplished what no government has been able to accomplish yet. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 17, 2020, 11:52:33 AM

When you're trying to protect yourself, a 10% reduction in risk is "ineffective".  When you're dealing with a disease that multiplies exponentially through a population, a 10% reduction in transmission rate is massive.

Also, the fact that a mask does not "filter" droplets does not negate the fact that it drastically reduces the range that someone can project those droplets - that's the reason for the existence of non-surgical masks.

The bottom line is, if we're going to attempt to reopen the economy, we should be taking all the minimally-disruptive precautions we can while doing so.  It's common sense.

This. Requiring non-medical masking of everyone in public would absolutely be impactful and would prevent resurgence as we scale back physical distancing. It seems to be a really hard sell in North America though. Too many people will only do something if it benefits them, not total strangers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on April 17, 2020, 12:09:55 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

This study was done in a California county with only a few known cases and a much smaller amount of deaths.  Extrapolated to the numbers in New York, it's possible the virus is already so pervasive that any type of control is futile.  What if 25, 30 or 40% of the population already has it? 

“The situation we have now is unsustainable. People can’t stay in their homes for this length of time, they can’t stay out of work. You can’t keep the economy closed forever. You just can’t,” Cuomo said. “Society can’t handle it personally or economically. So now we’re moving into another phase, which is this reopening phase.”
Santa Clara county is one of the counties with a higher known infection total, compared to the rest of the state (Los Angeles notwithstanding).

Considering its proximity to SF, and the amount of visitors to the area, it is not out of the realm of possibility that a large # of people have already been exposed.

However, with limited testing, we really cannot know.  My own county only has 300 and some known infections, but we aren't testing enough.  Plus, I don't think we really know how many people are asymptomatic (completely).  It seems like when you get it, you KNOW, but if you aren't testing people who are only mildly sick or not sick, you really do not know.

It is going to be months before we really know.  Also, having antibodies doesn't mean you will fight it off, or cannot be reinfected.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 17, 2020, 12:41:43 PM
I’d like to know how many people outside Australia have heard of the Ruby Princess debacle? Something I was reading says that it’s now the all time most fatal cruise, since 20 people are dead in Australia (there are some overseas as well) of Covid 19 from the one cruise (it’s also contributed at least 10% of the Australian cases and 30% of the deaths).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/nsw-police-probe-ruby-princess-voayges-question-passengers/12156940
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 17, 2020, 01:50:47 PM
The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.

As a Swede: thank you. I'm glad you understand us.

The other day I had the longest conversation yet with an 85 year old woman who has lived in the same apartment building as me since I moved here in 1996.  The conversation was short, I basically gave her my number and told her to call me if she needed me to shop for her.  That led to a 3 minute conversation (at a distance), but still the longest we've had. :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 17, 2020, 02:10:56 PM
The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.

As a Swede: thank you. I'm glad you understand us.

The other day I had the longest conversation yet with an 85 year old woman who has lived in the same apartment building as me since I moved here in 1996.  The conversation was short, I basically gave her my number and told her to call me if she needed me to shop for her.  That led to a 3 minute conversation (at a distance), but still the longest we've had. :)

Husband and I need to move to Sweden. I've been fascinated with it for decades, but I'm now sure we would love it. I genuinely like people...under controlled and limited circumstances. Your interaction with your neighbor sounds lovely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 17, 2020, 02:21:59 PM
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Anette on April 17, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Where? It ain't happening in my state and we don't want it to.

Sorry, I actually believed you could see my location. I am in Germany. And I am glad it is happening but we do have a different situation than in the US
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on April 17, 2020, 02:51:18 PM
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?
I know a lot of Danes.  Some are like this (reserved), many are open and friendly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 17, 2020, 03:25:44 PM
Those dumb Swedes...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-rates-easing-despite-loose-rule/

Interesting how a country without lockdowns has the same curve as those with lockdowns.  Yet, lockdowns work right?  And pigs fly...


Writing from one of the hardest hit regions of Sweden (Östergötland), let's just be careful not to compare apples to oranges here.  I have also seen the numbers, and they are surely going the right way right now.  For the most part, the reported "number of infected" is quite low in Sweden but do remember that so far the only ones tested for the virus are people in the health care and elderly care systems - patients/residents and staff. No general testing yet. On the other hand, looking at people in ICU and deaths where the numbers are probably more accurate and they are also going down good news.  The health care system have made a very big work in converting from regular care to covid/ICU care, and thanks to this we still have about 20% capacity left in the ICU.

Sweden is mostly a very rural country and the big metropolitan area of Stockholm is decently hard hit.  The more rural parts are so far quite spared.  Which probably means less herd immunity so far.  My parents live only about 100 km away from me, but I think I will not be able or willing to visit them until after the summer (unless I somehow get tested and shown that I've gotte immune, but no such test exists here yet).

People in general take the "recommendation" to isolate quite seriously even though we have no fines for individuals who do not comply.

There might not be an official shutdown of resturants, but aside from takeaway and food delivery it might just as well have been - most resturants are quite empty, many are closed or have reduced hours due to lack of customers.  Among the bars and nightclubs - those who have not closed have a drastically changed business to avoid customers getting close to each others. I guess that 30-70% or so of them will be in bankrupcy before the summer is over.

Retail in general is hit quite hard, and there are currently at least three clothing stores in the block where I live which have closed due to bankrupcy, and another that is in bankrupcy protection trying to rescue their finances.  The remaining ones have staff in furlough and reduced hours.

The other thing about Sweden (and other Nordic countries) that may be helping lower infection rates is: they naturally physically distance. Their cultures are very introverted compared to most other European and North American cultures. For example, Swedes in apartment buildings look through their peephole to see if anyone is in the hall, waiting for the elevator and they won't go out until they're gone.  That way they can avoid interaction. That's a normal thing for them.
The other is that the level of shared agreement about what's best for everyone, and the willingness of individuals to do what's best for everyone, is much higher there than other places. So if you bring in milder limitations and people follow them, you don't need stronger.
The Italians brought in milder restrictions first, they were ignored by a substantial part of the population, so they had to go full lockdown.
I'm sure the Swedes have many uncounted COVID cases, like nearly all other places. But I suspect their culture of physical distancing has helped control spread.

Not to mention the lack of travel that has mostly stopped due to lack of demand. Businesstravel stopped for more than a month ago due to company risk management and mpst of those that can work from home. The government had to make a deal with one of the airlines to continue flights to the northern parts of the country, otherwise they would have been shut down. Trains go with reduced capacity. Most of the people stayed home during eastern instead of going sling or to their vacation homes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 18, 2020, 12:51:57 AM
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?

You might enjoy "The Almost Nearly Perfect People" by Michael Booth. He talks about the different country's cultural similarities and differences. As I remember, the Finns are the most introverted of them all. They don't do random small talk at all, in fact they talk very much less. This is at least partly because they share a sense that they already understand what the other person is thinking, so why waste air babbling about it.
The homogenity of Nordic countries is and has been a strength historically - when everyone is like you, you feel understood and that you understand others. Everyone is on the same page.

In "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis he goes into the effect of the 2008 financial crisis in different countries. Iceland is particularly interesting because their investment banking was basically run by former fisherman, and Icelandic fisherman are apparently the most aggressive, risk-taking fishermen in the world. (In the book, even the even Russian fishermen, who are no pussies, say this).
There is a seam of super-machismo in Icelandic culture.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 01:36:21 AM
Libraries will open again on Monday! Hooray
Where? It ain't happening in my state and we don't want it to.
Sorry, I actually believed you could see my location. I am in Germany. And I am glad it is happening but we do have a different situation than in the US
You can choose to make your location public, if you don't there's no way to know.

I'm relieved that's not happening in the US yet. We're nowhere near ready for that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 18, 2020, 02:44:47 AM
Just curious, but are all Scandinavians like this?


I know a few Icelandic folks and they are relatively open and friendly.  Not too familiar with the Norwegians, Danish and Finnish.  What are some of the differences?

You might enjoy "The Almost Nearly Perfect People" by Michael Booth. He talks about the different country's cultural similarities and differences. As I remember, the Finns are the most introverted of them all. They don't do random small talk at all, in fact they talk very much less. This is at least partly because they share a sense that they already understand what the other person is thinking, so why waste air babbling about it.
The homogenity of Nordic countries is and has been a strength historically - when everyone is like you, you feel understood and that you understand others. Everyone is on the same page.

In "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis he goes into the effect of the 2008 financial crisis in different countries. Iceland is particularly interesting because their investment banking was basically run by former fisherman, and Icelandic fisherman are apparently the most aggressive, risk-taking fishermen in the world. (In the book, even the even Russian fishermen, who are no pussies, say this).
There is a seam of super-machismo in Icelandic culture.

I need to move to Finland
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lemanfan on April 18, 2020, 03:56:04 AM
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu) too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.

(https://i.ibb.co/T4ThNFL/DSC-0033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4ThNFL)

At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 18, 2020, 04:26:57 AM
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu) too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.

(https://i.ibb.co/T4ThNFL/DSC-0033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4ThNFL)

At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now.

I'm a New Zealander. We have sisu too. We call it "number 8 wire mentality". It means make it work with what you have, get a solution going and get on with it without drama. Number 8 wire is farm fencing wire. In a country of farms, it's everywhere and you can make just about anything out of it. To number 8 wire a solution means to make that solution out of non-standard components so you can just get on with things as fast as possible. That's why we will never run out of PPE - every locked down company up and down the country is making PPE from whatever they have access to. This is not government led. This is people in organisations of less than 10 employees saying 'shit, we can make that!'. We will also never run out of meat, beer and chippies (chips in a bag, crisps). When I go for a walk in my totally locked down town, I pass little tables outside people's houses where they are selling home sewn face masks, produce like apples and walnuts, flowers, eggs, baking, preserves, services like knife sharpening etc. Mostly text them and they'll arrange drop off but some are honesty boxes (you take what you want and put the money in their letterbox).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 18, 2020, 04:27:41 AM
I need to move to Finland

Just google up a bit on the concept of Sisu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu) too before you move.  Although not finnish, I do like some of the finnish spirit. 

Since my dear home Sweden is so often discussed in the world media today, let me give you a quick picture of the current stuation at one of the town squares in Linköping, a medium sized city about 2 hours southwest of Stockholm.  What you see in the picture is mainly the last third of a line of people preparing to shop at the bankrupcy / closeout sale of the local MQ Store, a chain that has been struggling for years and now folded.

(https://i.ibb.co/T4ThNFL/DSC-0033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4ThNFL)

At least, people are keeping some sort of distance in the line.

In other public places, people are sitting with decent distances between themselvs on benches and ourdoor cafés.  It's sunny but only around 9 C / 42 F and people are trying to get a little long awaited sun.   

The specialists here have guessed that this region, like the capital region, probably has reached some sort of herd immunity by now.

I lived in Finland as a student and I would love to move back. I just wanted to add that people are friendly, kind and social there. It's not a hard, unfriendly place at all. On the contrary. They just don't feel the need to hug everyone and invade their privacy. And they are basically all preppers,. So they are doing well during this epidemic and they will do well if/when the Russians invade again. They are self-reliant independent people. I think the latter is typical for all the Germanic cultures. We are on a 'common sense' partial lockdown and this works very well because the vast majority of people thinks this is sensible and doesn't take unnecessary risks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 18, 2020, 05:34:50 AM
Hmm, Anna's #8 wire is our duct tape.  Canadians used to have that toughness, but I am not sure we still have it as much - the isolation and self-reliance caused by winter and farming were major contributors. 

I loved my 3 months in NZ, almost wish I were still there instead of here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GreenSheep on April 18, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
chippies (chips in a bag, crisps)

Not having been to New Zealand (someday, I hope!), I had no idea you called them chippies. Here in the US, "chippy" is an old-fashioned slang term for a promiscuous woman, usually used in the phrase "chippy on the side." As in, "His poor wife sits at home while he runs around town with one of his chippies on the side." I suppose if you order a sandwich in NZ and they ask if you want chippies on the side, it's a different thing entirely! :-)

I've been to Iceland, but not Norway/Sweden/Finland/Denmark. I do think I'd enjoy the culture there. I'm sure they're all slightly different, but I liked the fact that Icelanders were polite but a little standoffish at first, then very friendly once they got to know you. A bit like the French, in the sense that you know that when they're friendly, it's genuine. And no saccharine hugs like we have here.

Back on the topic of "how can people be so incredibly stupid," I have a quasi-friend (one of those saccharine huggers) who revealed that she's been going to the grocery store every 2-3 days. I made no judgement and offered no opinion on what I thought she should be doing, but when I mentioned that I haven't been out since March 31st and don't plan to go anywhere anytime soon, she completely flipped out and couldn't believe that I'm "living in fear" since there aren't many cases (ha, that we know of) here. Uh, yeah, that's the whole point. You have to take precautions before things get bad if you don't want things to get bad.

Also, she, like many, is entirely focused on the fact that she and I are relatively young and healthy, so our chance of dying from this is very low. But death isn't the only bad outcome. I don't want to have a miserable week like Paula Pant ( https://affordanything.com/i-tested-positive-for-coronavirus/ ), and we don't know what the long-term health consequences might be. And of course, I don't want to participate in spreading this to others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 18, 2020, 08:41:40 AM
Also a newcomer to the NZ use of "chippy": here in the UK it would usually mean the local fish and chip shop, as in "I'm going down the chippy, do you want  anything?" - a phrase I now know not to use in the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 18, 2020, 09:32:06 AM
So my town just had a big "end the shutdown" protest rally yesterday (and more planned for this weekend). Big unmasked group shoulder to shoulder ranting in everyone's faces. Sigh...idiots. I don't care which side of the "open up or stay closed down" debate you are on. Just recognize that people are sick and dying and this is a highly contagious disease so keep your distance!

I'm suppose to be in Sweden right now instead of the US but of course my multi-months long trip was cancelled. My grandparents are Swedish and I've spent a lot of time there and I agree with the discussion above about Swedish social culture. It is very different then some other places in Europe, especially southern European countries where everyone hugs and kisses you. My Mom is German and didn't come to the US until in her 30s and also is very standoffish compared to most in the US. If I could live in Sweden or Germany I'd be a happy camper. I was born in the UK and have a UK passport so maybe I can! Time to google.

For all your know the protesters could have already had and recovered from COVID-19.  Perhaps they are not in risk categories where COVID-19 is likely to cause a significant health issue.   Perhaps emphasizing with the protesters and what has happened in their lives since the COVID reaction unfolded might be a good exercise.

I understand there are many concerned people out there, but they can isolate themselves from any risk if they so choose.  Destroying and massively restricting the lives of others does not create a "safe space".

The great thing about personal responsibility and decision making is if you are concerned about COVID-19 you can make the decision to avoid the protesters and therefore easily bypass any theoretical risk. 

Seems idiotic to shut down society and cause trillions of dollars in economic and social damage in what amounts to mostly futile attempts to stop a virus that causes at most mild symptoms in 80% of those it infects.  It also seems idiotic that state Governors are apparently allowed make sweeping social changes and a one-size fits all policy to a virus that is harmless to the overwhelming majority of the population.

I think it would be a good idea to Constitutionally institute additional restrictions on governmental power so we can avoid such a hysterical and irrational response in the future.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 18, 2020, 09:42:44 AM
As I understand the epidemiology, the virus causes only mild symptoms in most healthy people <35 with a death rate of less than 0.1%.

The death rate goes up exponentially for those over 65, or with pre-existing health conditions.

I would have thought therefore that it is up to those who are in the most at-risk sectors, or who anticipate having contact (family/friends) with the most at-risk sectors, to take the most precautions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: centwise on April 18, 2020, 09:43:24 AM
So my town just had a big "end the shutdown" protest rally yesterday (and more planned for this weekend). Big unmasked group shoulder to shoulder ranting in everyone's faces. Sigh...idiots. I don't care which side of the "open up or stay closed down" debate you are on. Just recognize that people are sick and dying and this is a highly contagious disease so keep your distance!

I'm suppose to be in Sweden right now instead of the US but of course my multi-months long trip was cancelled. My grandparents are Swedish and I've spent a lot of time there and I agree with the discussion above about Swedish social culture. It is very different then some other places in Europe, especially southern European countries where everyone hugs and kisses you. My Mom is German and didn't come to the US until in her 30s and also is very standoffish compared to most in the US. If I could live in Sweden or Germany I'd be a happy camper. I was born in the UK and have a UK passport so maybe I can! Time to google.

For all your know the protesters could have already had and recovered from COVID-19.  Perhaps they are not in risk categories where COVID-19 is likely to cause a significant health issue.   Perhaps emphasizing with the protesters and what has happened in their lives since the COVID reaction unfolded might be a good exercise.

I understand there are many concerned people out there, but they can isolate themselves from any risk if they so choose.  Destroying and massively restricting the lives of others does not create a "safe space".

The great thing about personal responsibility and decision making is if you are concerned about COVID-19 you can make the decision to avoid the protesters and therefore easily bypass any theoretical risk. 

Seems idiotic to shut down society and cause trillions of dollars in economic and social damage in what amounts to mostly futile attempts to stop a virus that causes at most mild symptoms in 80% of those it infects.  It also seems idiotic that state Governors are apparently allowed make sweeping social changes and a one-size fits all policy to a virus that is harmless to the overwhelming majority of the population.

I think it would be a good idea to Constitutionally institute additional restrictions on governmental power so we can avoid such a hysterical and irrational response in the future.

Sigh. This reply is an excellent answer to the question posed in the OP: egillespie demonstrates EXACTLY how people can be so incredibly stupid.

Maintaining intelligent public health policy is not accomplished by having every "rugged individual" make their own ill-informed and self-serving decisions based on their perception of their own personal risk, everyone else be damned.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 18, 2020, 09:45:14 AM
So my town just had a big "end the shutdown" protest rally yesterday (and more planned for this weekend). Big unmasked group shoulder to shoulder ranting in everyone's faces. Sigh...idiots. I don't care which side of the "open up or stay closed down" debate you are on. Just recognize that people are sick and dying and this is a highly contagious disease so keep your distance!

I'm suppose to be in Sweden right now instead of the US but of course my multi-months long trip was cancelled. My grandparents are Swedish and I've spent a lot of time there and I agree with the discussion above about Swedish social culture. It is very different then some other places in Europe, especially southern European countries where everyone hugs and kisses you. My Mom is German and didn't come to the US until in her 30s and also is very standoffish compared to most in the US. If I could live in Sweden or Germany I'd be a happy camper. I was born in the UK and have a UK passport so maybe I can! Time to google.

For all your know the protesters could have already had and recovered from COVID-19.  Perhaps they are not in risk categories where COVID-19 is likely to cause a significant health issue.   Perhaps emphasizing with the protesters and what has happened in their lives since the COVID reaction unfolded might be a good exercise.



Yes. Perhaps every single one of the protesters has already had and recovered from Covid-19.

In which case, perhaps for them, empathizing with all of the other people who have not yet had it and would be negatively affected by a premature reopening of “life as usual” — maybe to the point of illness or even death — might be a good exercise. Especially those who, for job or other reasons, do not have the option of self-isolating.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 18, 2020, 10:10:05 AM
As I understand the epidemiology, the virus causes only mild symptoms in most healthy people <35 with a death rate of less than 0.1%.

The death rate goes up exponentially for those over 65, or with pre-existing health conditions.

I would have thought therefore that it is up to those who are in the most at-risk sectors, or who anticipate having contact (family/friends) with the most at-risk sectors, to take the most precautions.

From what I see around me: even for the young and healthy it's not like the cold, but rather feels like having influenza and norovirus together, it's not over in a few days. People need 2-3 weeks with lots of ups and downs before they feel healthy again and these are the "mild" cases that don't require hospitalisation. While chances of hospitalisation are low for healthy people, the hospital and death rate is still a LOT higher (likely as much as 10x) than in the common flu. Many people also require a pretty long hospital stay.

Even though the vast majority of people will eventually get it, you don't want all of us to get it at the same time, because we don't want an overburdened healthsystem and the mass panic it would create. And even a healthy person without Covid-19 needs to have a hospital bed available when they fall off a roof when they are doing DIY, and I'm sure they also want a bed available when one of their vulnerable parents has a stroke. These kind of decisions cannot be left to the individual but only work if the whole community works together. Kind of like vaccination. When a person is taking risks, they are not just exposing themselves to a risk (unless they otherwise live in isolation on top of a mountain) but also their family, the people they interact with in the grocery store, the people who live in the same apartment building, their coworkers if they are still going into work, etc etc.

 It's nearly impossible for vulnerable people to completely self-isolate. First of all because many have to go into work. Secondly because they still need to get groceries and go to the hospital. I still have medically necessary hospital treatment that I need to go through. It's still happening in these circumstances which says something about how badly I need this treatment. As the hospital is 50 km away I have no choice but to take the train. I just hope I don't run into idiots taking risks.

Now, if everyone used their common sense we wouldn't have mandatory closings, but it seems like a lot of people are lacking that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 18, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
So my town just had a big "end the shutdown" protest rally yesterday (and more planned for this weekend). Big unmasked group shoulder to shoulder ranting in everyone's faces. Sigh...idiots. I don't care which side of the "open up or stay closed down" debate you are on. Just recognize that people are sick and dying and this is a highly contagious disease so keep your distance!

I'm suppose to be in Sweden right now instead of the US but of course my multi-months long trip was cancelled. My grandparents are Swedish and I've spent a lot of time there and I agree with the discussion above about Swedish social culture. It is very different then some other places in Europe, especially southern European countries where everyone hugs and kisses you. My Mom is German and didn't come to the US until in her 30s and also is very standoffish compared to most in the US. If I could live in Sweden or Germany I'd be a happy camper. I was born in the UK and have a UK passport so maybe I can! Time to google.

For all your know the protesters could have already had and recovered from COVID-19.  Perhaps they are not in risk categories where COVID-19 is likely to cause a significant health issue.   Perhaps emphasizing with the protesters and what has happened in their lives since the COVID reaction unfolded might be a good exercise.

I understand there are many concerned people out there, but they can isolate themselves from any risk if they so choose.  Destroying and massively restricting the lives of others does not create a "safe space".

The great thing about personal responsibility and decision making is if you are concerned about COVID-19 you can make the decision to avoid the protesters and therefore easily bypass any theoretical risk. 

Seems idiotic to shut down society and cause trillions of dollars in economic and social damage in what amounts to mostly futile attempts to stop a virus that causes at most mild symptoms in 80% of those it infects.  It also seems idiotic that state Governors are apparently allowed make sweeping social changes and a one-size fits all policy to a virus that is harmless to the overwhelming majority of the population.

I think it would be a good idea to Constitutionally institute additional restrictions on governmental power so we can avoid such a hysterical and irrational response in the future.

The protesters in my town are flying Trump flags and like you think that scientifically recommended precautions are hysterical because they haven't gotten sick.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dancin'Dog on April 18, 2020, 11:45:11 AM
I find it interesting that Trump is encouraging his voters to engage in risks that could easily prevent large numbers of them from being able to vote for him.  That doesn't seem like something a really smart guy would do.  Obviously, I'm just not that smart.



Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 18, 2020, 02:35:13 PM
I find it interesting that Trump is encouraging his voters to engage in risks that could easily prevent large numbers of them from being able to vote for him.  That doesn't seem like something a really smart guy would do.  Obviously, I'm just not that smart.

Or, he could realize that the fatality rate for the virus is 0.37%, mostly elderly and obese people.  I don't know how many 80-year-olds vote at all (let alone for Trump), but the fatality rate is insignificant when compared to the vastness of the voting block.  There are likely many, many more who have legitimate grievances regarding the draconian public policy decisions currently in effect.  Millions upon millions of people have been directly and significantly hurt by the government response.  Poverty, hunger and foreclosure have more of a long term sting than a cough and fever.  Dead people do not vote, those that lost their jobs and are in financial ruin will certainly vote. 

There were 2 studies from Boston this week that show the virus may already be endemic there, as of early this week 30-50% have already been infected.  With the high R0 value of COVID-19, there are probably more than even those numbers indicate, especially in a place like NYC.

You are likely pretty smart to be on this website, but we all have a tendency to incorrectly assess risk. 

Regarding Trump, well, a broken clock is still correct twice per day.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on April 18, 2020, 03:05:15 PM
I find it interesting that Trump is encouraging his voters to engage in risks that could easily prevent large numbers of them from being able to vote for him.  That doesn't seem like something a really smart guy would do.  Obviously, I'm just not that smart.

Or, he could realize that the fatality rate for the virus is 0.37%, mostly elderly and obese people.  I don't know how many 80-year-olds vote at all (let alone for Trump), but the fatality rate is insignificant when compared to the vastness of the voting block.  There are likely many, many more who have legitimate grievances regarding the draconian public policy decisions currently in effect.  Millions upon millions of people have been directly and significantly hurt by the government response.  Poverty, hunger and foreclosure have more of a long term sting than a cough and fever.

Presenting this as factual is dishonest and irresponsible. No one knows the fatality rate of this virus.


Quote
There were 2 studies from Boston this week that show the virus may already be endemic there,

It seems likely that it will become endemic but calling the virus endemic during the initial outbreak doesn't make sense.



Quote
as of early this week 30-50% have already been infected. 

Do not believe numbers and data presented by this poster. They are consistently untrue.

Here are the two studies they referenced and posted in another thread.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/17/business/nearly-third-200-blood-samples-taken-chelsea-show-exposure-coronavirus/

https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2020/04/coronavirus-spread-testing-shows-stunning-asymptomatic-covid-19-rate-at-boston-homeless-shelter.html

They do not make the claim that 30-50% of Boston has contracted the virus.


Quote
With the high R0 value of COVID-19, there are probably more than even those numbers indicate, especially in a place like NYC.

This assertion doesn't make sense. The numbers you're referring to are the actual test results which are a direct result of the high R0 value.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 18, 2020, 03:10:17 PM
I don't know how many 80-year-olds vote at all (let alone for Trump),
Voting rates are highest among the over 60s in both the USA and UK, and by a significant amount.  All the 80+ people I've known who weren't suffering dementia have voted every chance they've had, including the two centenarians.  I've wheeled a couple of them to the polls in wheelchairs myself, for that matter.  So if you don't know many 80+ year olds I feel sorry for you as all the ones I've known have been pretty awesome and definitely took what they regarded as their civic duty to vote seriously.

And while I wouldn't be so impolite as to enquire of anyone who they voted for, statistics in both the USA and UK say that 60+ and 70+ are more likely to vote Republican/conservative by 60:40.

To be perfectly frank, you seem somewhat lacking in a broader perspective on life and it comes across as a sort of uninformed callousness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 18, 2020, 03:41:26 PM
I find it interesting that Trump is encouraging his voters to engage in risks that could easily prevent large numbers of them from being able to vote for him.  That doesn't seem like something a really smart guy would do.  Obviously, I'm just not that smart.

Or, he could realize that the fatality rate for the virus is 0.37%, mostly elderly and obese people.  I don't know how many 80-year-olds vote at all (let alone for Trump), but the fatality rate is insignificant when compared to the vastness of the voting block.  There are likely many, many more who have legitimate grievances regarding the draconian public policy decisions currently in effect.  Millions upon millions of people have been directly and significantly hurt by the government response.  Poverty, hunger and foreclosure have more of a long term sting than a cough and fever.

Presenting this as factual is dishonest and irresponsible. No one knows the fatality rate of this virus.


Quote
There were 2 studies from Boston this week that show the virus may already be endemic there,

It seems likely that it will become endemic but calling the virus endemic during the initial outbreak doesn't make sense.



Quote
as of early this week 30-50% have already been infected. 

Do not believe numbers and data presented by this poster. They are consistently untrue.

Here are the two studies they referenced and posted in another thread.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/17/business/nearly-third-200-blood-samples-taken-chelsea-show-exposure-coronavirus/

https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2020/04/coronavirus-spread-testing-shows-stunning-asymptomatic-covid-19-rate-at-boston-homeless-shelter.html

They do not make the claim that 30-50% of Boston has contracted the virus.


Quote
With the high R0 value of COVID-19, there are probably more than even those numbers indicate, especially in a place like NYC.

This assertion doesn't make sense. The numbers you're referring to are the actual test results which are a direct result of the high R0 value.

The most recent iFR estimate of COVID-19 (0.37%) was presented in this research paper:

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

The paper was updated as of Friday.  I quote:

"Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%.*"

As a pandemic continues it's likely death rates drop.  We know damn well what the iFR is for this disease, but I'm sorry that is doesn't fit the nonsense in your mind.

The preliminary data from Boston did not make any claim on infectious rate.   I did.  Perhaps we can come back to this post in a month and see what the peer reviewed data shows?  Or, we can defend dysfunctional public policy based on emotion, hysteria and fear and say to hell with the scientific method.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 18, 2020, 04:01:51 PM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 18, 2020, 04:04:06 PM
I don't know how many 80-year-olds vote at all (let alone for Trump),
Voting rates are highest among the over 60s in both the USA and UK, and by a significant amount.  All the 80+ people I've known who weren't suffering dementia have voted every chance they've had, including the two centenarians.  I've wheeled a couple of them to the polls in wheelchairs myself, for that matter.  So if you don't know many 80+ year olds I feel sorry for you as all the ones I've known have been pretty awesome and definitely took what they regarded as their civic duty to vote seriously.

And while I wouldn't be so impolite as to enquire of anyone who they voted for, statistics in both the USA and UK say that 60+ and 70+ are more likely to vote Republican/conservative by 60:40.

To be perfectly frank, you seem somewhat lacking in a broader perspective on life and it comes across as a sort of uninformed callousness.

God, same. My friends in their 70s and 80’s put me to shame with their high level of political activism and engagement. I learn so much from them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: T-Money$ on April 18, 2020, 04:38:54 PM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.

There is no argument.

It is now within the scientific realm of possibility that COVID-19 is not significantly more deadly than a typical influenza strain. 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Estimating COVID-19 Infection Fatality  Rates (IFR)
The current COVID outbreak seems to be following previous pandemics: initial CFRs start high and trend downwards. For example, In Wuhan, the CFR  has gone down from 17% in the initial phase to near 1% in the late stage. It is increasingly clear that current testing strategies are not capturing everybody.  In South Korea, considerable numbers who tested positive were also asymptomatics-  likely driving the rapid worldwide spread.

CFR rates are subject to selection bias as more severe cases are tested – generally those in the hospital settings or those with more severe symptoms. The number of currently infected asymptomatics is uncertain: estimates put it at least a half are asymptomatic; the proportion not coming forward for testing is also highly doubtful (i.e. you are symptomatic, but you do not present for testing). Therefore we can assume the IFR is significantly lower than the CFR.

Emerging evidence suggests many more people are infected. than tested. In Vo Italy, at the time the first symptomatic case was diagnosed, about 3%, had already been infected –  most were completely asymptomatic.

We could make a simple estimation of the IFR as 0.36%, based on halving the lowest boundary of the CFR prediction interval. However, the considerable uncertainty over how many people have the disease,  the proportion asymptomatic (and the demographics of those affected) means this IFR is likely an overestimate.

In Swine flu, the IFR ended up as 0.02%, fivefold less than the lowest estimate during the outbreak (the lowest estimate was 0.1% in the 1st ten weeks of the outbreak). In Iceland, where the most testing per capita has occurred, the IFR lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.19%.

Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%.*

Data from COVID deaths in Gangelt, Germany, suggests an IFR of 0.37%.  A random sample of 1,000 residents of  Gangelt found that 14% were carrying antibodies (2% were detected  cases), which led to  the lowering of the IFR estimates

*Demographic changes in the population could vary the IFR  significantly. If younger populations are infected more the IFR will be lower. Comorbidities will have a significant impact to increase the IFR: the elderly and those with ≥ 3 comorbidities are at much higher risk.

Modelling the data on the prevalence of comorbidities is essential to understand the CFR and IFR by age (the prevalence of comorbidities is highly age-dependent and is higher in socially deprived populations). It is also not clear if the presence of other circulating influenza illnesses acts to increase the IFR (testing for co-pathogens is not occurring). And whether certain populations (e.g., those with heart conditions) are more at risk.

In those without pre-existing health conditions, and over 70, the data suggests the IFR will likely not exceed 1%.
Mortality in children seems to be near zero (unlike flu) which is also reassuring and will act to drive down the IFR significantly.
It is now essential to understand whether individuals are dying with or from the disease. Understanding this issue is critical. If, for instance, 80% of those over 80 die with the disease then the CFR  would be near 3% in this age group as opposed to 15%. Cause of death information from death certificates is often inaccurate and incomplete, particularly for conditions such as pneumonia. These factors would act to lower the IFR.

Antibody testing will provide an accurate understanding of how many people have been infected so far, and permit a more accurate estimate of the IFR.

We do not currently have a good understanding of  What proportion are asymptomatic?

We are tracking excess mortality (Assessment of Mortality in the Covid-19 outbreak to understand this phenomenon)  to determine how many excess deaths occur during the pandemic. Accurate data on deaths and cause of death (which is not forthcoming) is vital to determine the effect of the COVID pandemic.

*Estimating CFR and IFR in the early stage of outbreaks is subject to considerable uncertainties, the estimates are likely to change as more data emerges.

See Lancet report:  CFRs on mortality rate estimates can be misleading if the CFR is based on the number of deaths per number of confirmed cases at the same time.  Using the denominator of the mortality rate as the total number of patients infected at the same time as those who died would lead to much higher CFRs. However, they report the full denominator remains unknown as asymptomatic with mild symptoms might not be tested and will not be identified, particularly in the early stages of an outbreak.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on April 18, 2020, 04:54:02 PM
The most recent iFR estimate of COVID-19 (0.37%) was presented in this research paper:

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

The paper was updated as of Friday.  I quote:

"Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%.*"

As a pandemic continues it's likely death rates drop.  We know damn well what the iFR is for this disease, but I'm sorry that is doesn't fit the nonsense in your mind.

You see that asterisk in the passage you quoted? Here's the explanation it references:

Quote
*Estimating CFR and IFR in the early stage of outbreaks is subject to considerable uncertainties, the estimates are likely to change as more data emerges.

And yet again, your cited source disagrees with your claim. We do not know the IFR, we have estimates of the IFR. Call an estimate an estimate and there's no issue. Call  an estimate a fact and you're going to get called out


Quote
The preliminary data from Boston did not make any claim on infectious rate.   I did.  Perhaps we can come back to this post in a month and see what the peer reviewed data shows?  Or, we can defend dysfunctional public policy based on emotion, hysteria and fear and say to hell with the scientific method.

I don't care what we know a month from now. It's entirely possible that 30-50% of the population is infected, but you don't know that right now. Presenting your wild guesses as factual information is irresponsible. If you're making a guess call it a guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 18, 2020, 06:28:28 PM
I have no problem with the protests and support that right. But it would be just as effective done 6 ft apart while wearing a mask. They may, or may not be immune. They may, or may not be be asymptomatic. They may, or may not become infected by a fellow protester. But in any case they will likely be around others after the protest who may more readily become ill or die from the disease. A nurse or doctor or first responder who can't avoid them or those they may infect.
I have yet to see egillespie add much of value to any conversation on this forum in all of their whopping 86 posts. I think you're being trolled, @spartana. I saw the news of those protesters, too. Unbelievably clueless and fucking inconsiderate too boot. Example: my brother is deathly allergic to eggs. Most vaccinations contain egg whites, ergo, he can't have them. We need to develop herd mentality to protect the vulnerable among us. It's not just old people who are at risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 18, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.

There is no argument.

It is now within the scientific realm of possibility that COVID-19 is not significantly more deadly than a typical influenza strain. 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Estimating COVID-19 Infection Fatality  Rates (IFR)
The current COVID outbreak seems to be following previous pandemics: initial CFRs start high and trend downwards. For example, In Wuhan, the CFR  has gone down from 17% in the initial phase to near 1% in the late stage. It is increasingly clear that current testing strategies are not capturing everybody.  In South Korea, considerable numbers who tested positive were also asymptomatics-  likely driving the rapid worldwide spread.

CFR rates are subject to selection bias as more severe cases are tested – generally those in the hospital settings or those with more severe symptoms. The number of currently infected asymptomatics is uncertain: estimates put it at least a half are asymptomatic; the proportion not coming forward for testing is also highly doubtful (i.e. you are symptomatic, but you do not present for testing). Therefore we can assume the IFR is significantly lower than the CFR.

Emerging evidence suggests many more people are infected. than tested. In Vo Italy, at the time the first symptomatic case was diagnosed, about 3%, had already been infected –  most were completely asymptomatic.

We could make a simple estimation of the IFR as 0.36%, based on halving the lowest boundary of the CFR prediction interval. However, the considerable uncertainty over how many people have the disease,  the proportion asymptomatic (and the demographics of those affected) means this IFR is likely an overestimate.

In Swine flu, the IFR ended up as 0.02%, fivefold less than the lowest estimate during the outbreak (the lowest estimate was 0.1% in the 1st ten weeks of the outbreak). In Iceland, where the most testing per capita has occurred, the IFR lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.19%.

Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%.*

Data from COVID deaths in Gangelt, Germany, suggests an IFR of 0.37%.  A random sample of 1,000 residents of  Gangelt found that 14% were carrying antibodies (2% were detected  cases), which led to  the lowering of the IFR estimates

*Demographic changes in the population could vary the IFR  significantly. If younger populations are infected more the IFR will be lower. Comorbidities will have a significant impact to increase the IFR: the elderly and those with ≥ 3 comorbidities are at much higher risk.

Modelling the data on the prevalence of comorbidities is essential to understand the CFR and IFR by age (the prevalence of comorbidities is highly age-dependent and is higher in socially deprived populations). It is also not clear if the presence of other circulating influenza illnesses acts to increase the IFR (testing for co-pathogens is not occurring). And whether certain populations (e.g., those with heart conditions) are more at risk.

In those without pre-existing health conditions, and over 70, the data suggests the IFR will likely not exceed 1%.
Mortality in children seems to be near zero (unlike flu) which is also reassuring and will act to drive down the IFR significantly.
It is now essential to understand whether individuals are dying with or from the disease. Understanding this issue is critical. If, for instance, 80% of those over 80 die with the disease then the CFR  would be near 3% in this age group as opposed to 15%. Cause of death information from death certificates is often inaccurate and incomplete, particularly for conditions such as pneumonia. These factors would act to lower the IFR.

Antibody testing will provide an accurate understanding of how many people have been infected so far, and permit a more accurate estimate of the IFR.

We do not currently have a good understanding of  What proportion are asymptomatic?

We are tracking excess mortality (Assessment of Mortality in the Covid-19 outbreak to understand this phenomenon)  to determine how many excess deaths occur during the pandemic. Accurate data on deaths and cause of death (which is not forthcoming) is vital to determine the effect of the COVID pandemic.

*Estimating CFR and IFR in the early stage of outbreaks is subject to considerable uncertainties, the estimates are likely to change as more data emerges.

See Lancet report:  CFRs on mortality rate estimates can be misleading if the CFR is based on the number of deaths per number of confirmed cases at the same time.  Using the denominator of the mortality rate as the total number of patients infected at the same time as those who died would lead to much higher CFRs. However, they report the full denominator remains unknown as asymptomatic with mild symptoms might not be tested and will not be identified, particularly in the early stages of an outbreak.


And yet, despite all your determined copy pasta, people in your neighbourhood continue to drop like flies. Maybe you should spend less time on the internet and more time looking out your window.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Abe on April 18, 2020, 08:01:52 PM
Using the lowest IFR mentioned, we’re looking at 330m x 0.5 infection rate (low end of predicted exposure) x 0.001 = 165k deaths in the US. For comparison, about 40k people die of the flu per year. I guess we will see how well the parts of the country that open up before this peaks fare. If the country as a whole does as poorly as NYC/NJ we’re looking at several hundred thousand deaths (330m US population /16m NY/Nj population= 20, multiplied by 21,000 deaths = 420,000 deaths nationwide). My guess is it’ll be somewhere in between. That’s a lot of deaths just to avoid a few months of economic distress.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: scottish on April 18, 2020, 08:15:54 PM
I find it interesting that Trump is encouraging his voters to engage in risks that could easily prevent large numbers of them from being able to vote for him.  That doesn't seem like something a really smart guy would do.  Obviously, I'm just not that smart.

Trump's genius doesn't lie in mathematics.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 18, 2020, 08:22:55 PM
Presenting this as factual is dishonest and irresponsible. No one knows the fatality rate of this virus.
There's the virus itself, and then there's the medical care.

In my state of Victoria here in Australia, we've had about 1,400 cases and 15 deaths. An international study has said our testing is catching at least 84% of the infected, maybe up to 92%. So the death rate is a bit under 1%. But... we're talking about, for example this weekend, 30 people in hospital, 12 of whom in intensive care. And the state had ~500 ICU beds before this, we're building 4,500 more. And we're looking at ~10 new cases a day.

In other words, every covid-19 patient in my state can get early access to medical care, and if they need critical or intensive care, they get it, the staff aren't overwhelmed, no medicines are running out, and so on. If it's physically possible to stop that person getting really sick, or physically possible to stop that really sick person dying, they'll manage it. Contrast this with this ICU nurse's story from NYC.

https://kristenfmartins.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/shit-is-real/ (https://kristenfmartins.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/shit-is-real/)

It's like saying, "What's the death rate of someone who has a cardiac arrest?" Well, if there is just me with first aid and one casualty we get one figure. Now we add an AED and the figure improves. Now we add paramedics within 10 minutes and the figure improves more, still. Okay, now we add a second person having a heart attack, and there's still just me, the AED and the single pair of paramedics. Now let's add a third. And so on.

What's the death rate of someone who has covid-19? Well, it depends. Is there one patient, or 10,000? And that's why Australia did the lockdown: not only so there'd be less people infected, but so that more of those who are infected will survive.

Now, obviously we can talk about particular lockdown measures (my state has closed playgrounds but keeps park water fountains open, which is the wrong way around), and we can talk about their other costs (suicides rise with unemployment, marriages break up, substance abuse increases). But it keeps the number of infected down, and it improves the survival rate of the infected, because the medical system doesn't get overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bigblock440 on April 18, 2020, 08:56:15 PM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic-ssl.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F5e9613a2dcd88c0f3b79a382-1668%2Fcovid-19%2520death%2520rates%2520per%2520country%2520april%252014.png&f=1&nofb=1)

What I'm wondering is why we haven't heard a thing about Belgium being a hotspot.  I didn't realize it was so bad there until today.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 18, 2020, 09:13:47 PM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic-ssl.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F5e9613a2dcd88c0f3b79a382-1668%2Fcovid-19%2520death%2520rates%2520per%2520country%2520april%252014.png&f=1&nofb=1)

What I'm wondering is why we haven't heard a thing about Belgium being a hotspot.  I didn't realize it was so bad there until today.

We pretty much only hear about places where either the health or mortuary system gets overwhelmed. Also, in raw numbers, those coming out of Belgium aren't staggering, even if the per capita numbers are.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 18, 2020, 09:29:33 PM
It’s fairly obvious that reporters aren’t mathematically inclined. I’m continually surprised at which countries each reporter is singling out as successful. Generally there are others which are far better.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 18, 2020, 09:51:53 PM
As I understand the epidemiology, the virus causes only mild symptoms in most healthy people <35 with a death rate of less than 0.1%.

The death rate goes up exponentially for those over 65, or with pre-existing health conditions.

I would have thought therefore that it is up to those who are in the most at-risk sectors, or who anticipate having contact (family/friends) with the most at-risk sectors, to take the most precautions.
Yes like all those old now-dead people in the nursi g homes who were dependent on the younger staff to care for them. Some who might not wish to follow distancing rules when out in public. Who may even join close large unmasked gatherings to protest covid safety measures. Or who's spouse or children or friends they are in close contact with do. But hey, WTF not? I mean THEY won't get too sick if they get it and who the hell cares how their actions may affect a bunch of old or immune compromised people.

Bit different if you're working in a nursing home as opposed to, say, being a young healthy person like me who's been ordered to stay in his flat, alone, with literally no human contact (other than when buying groceries), for 6 weeks at a time despite having no ordinary contact with elderly people in my everyday life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 18, 2020, 10:08:02 PM
As I understand the epidemiology, the virus causes only mild symptoms in most healthy people <35 with a death rate of less than 0.1%.

The death rate goes up exponentially for those over 65, or with pre-existing health conditions.

I would have thought therefore that it is up to those who are in the most at-risk sectors, or who anticipate having contact (family/friends) with the most at-risk sectors, to take the most precautions.
Yes like all those old now-dead people in the nursi g homes who were dependent on the younger staff to care for them. Some who might not wish to follow distancing rules when out in public. Who may even join close large unmasked gatherings to protest covid safety measures. Or who's spouse or children or friends they are in close contact with do. But hey, WTF not? I mean THEY won't get too sick if they get it and who the hell cares how their actions may affect a bunch of old or immune compromised people.

Bit different if you're working in a nursing home as opposed to, say, being a young healthy person like me who's been ordered to stay in his flat, alone, with literally no human contact (other than when buying groceries), for 6 weeks at a time despite having no ordinary contact with elderly people in my everyday life.

The people you would be hanging out with do have those contacts.  Jeesh, haven't you heard of 6 degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon?

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 18, 2020, 10:18:43 PM
Coronavirus is coming for Kevin Bacon.  Breaking news clip of him luring a coronavirus into a trap:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AmbitiousUnrulyCalf-size_restricted.gif)

This is how we beat this thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Davnasty on April 18, 2020, 10:20:55 PM
As I understand the epidemiology, the virus causes only mild symptoms in most healthy people <35 with a death rate of less than 0.1%.

The death rate goes up exponentially for those over 65, or with pre-existing health conditions.

I would have thought therefore that it is up to those who are in the most at-risk sectors, or who anticipate having contact (family/friends) with the most at-risk sectors, to take the most precautions.
Yes like all those old now-dead people in the nursi g homes who were dependent on the younger staff to care for them. Some who might not wish to follow distancing rules when out in public. Who may even join close large unmasked gatherings to protest covid safety measures. Or who's spouse or children or friends they are in close contact with do. But hey, WTF not? I mean THEY won't get too sick if they get it and who the hell cares how their actions may affect a bunch of old or immune compromised people.

Bit different if you're working in a nursing home as opposed to, say, being a young healthy person like me who's been ordered to stay in his flat, alone, with literally no human contact (other than when buying groceries), for 6 weeks at a time despite having no ordinary contact with elderly people in my everyday life.

The people you would be hanging out with do have those contacts.  Jeesh, haven't you heard of 6 degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon?

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

And it's 6 degrees between most of the planet. How many degrees between you and a healthcare worker?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Polaria on April 18, 2020, 11:51:12 PM
What I'm wondering is why we haven't heard a thing about Belgium being a hotspot.  I didn't realize it was so bad there until today.

My understanding is that suspected deaths and cases are included as well, not only deaths and cases that tested positive. The number of beds in ICU is now diminishing (see attached file).

At this stage about half of deaths is occurring in care homes. They’re currently massively testing in care homes to control the pandemic there.

The lockdown situation here seems similar as elsewhere. I am starting my 6th week of working from home.

That said, a good school friend of my sibling passed away at 40 from COVID.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 19, 2020, 01:39:30 AM
What I'm wondering is why we haven't heard a thing about Belgium being a hotspot.  I didn't realize it was so bad there until today.

My understanding is that suspected deaths and cases are included as well, not only deaths and cases that tested positive. The number of beds in ICU is now diminishing (see attached file).

At this stage about half of deaths is occurring in care homes. They’re currently massively testing in care homes to control the pandemic there.

The lockdown situation here seems similar as elsewhere. I am starting my 6th week of working from home.

That said, a good school friend of my sibling passed away at 40 from COVID.

Yes, and to nuance the figures in NL (and I think in Belgium too) we generally only test those who are ill enough to be admitted to hospital. Our healthcare system can still cope, so we're really talking about a 10% mortality rate in severe cases.

The mortality rate is a lot worse than during flu season. In my hometown about 5 people die every week under normal circumstances. Maybe 8 or to 10 during flu season or a heatwave. It had been 35-40 a week since early March. The local catholic church is doing 3 to 4 funerals a day, 6 days a week. The last remaining members of the Greatest and Silent generations are being wiped out. But younger, healthy people are dying or getting seriously ill too. A lower percentage of them, sure, but I can't remember ever hearing about a young person on the ICU for flu (it happens, sure, but it's extremely rare) but I've heard about quite a few in that situation because of Covid-19. The youngest person I know on ICU is 30 and healthy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 19, 2020, 02:28:16 AM
I don’t understand your argument, when your country has the highest death toll from this virus of anywhere in the world.

What I'm wondering is why we haven't heard a thing about Belgium being a hotspot.  I didn't realize it was so bad there until today.

At least in the US it's a combination of 1. Nobody cares about Belgium (or the Netherlands) 2. The absolute numbers are relatively low 3. It doesn't fit any preferred narratives.

What will get more clicks a story about tens of thousands of deaths in Spain, Italy, France, or the US. Or one about thousands of deaths in Belgium? One that blames Trump for everything or one that makes a nuanced comparison between how other countries have tried to handle the pandemic? The media knows what sells and they're working overtime to pump it out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Polaria on April 19, 2020, 03:13:39 AM
To complete my post above about the Belgian situation:

What happened is that Italy started to get hit during the carnival holidays in Belgium (the week of 24th February), and lot of Belgians were on ski holiday there. There were also a lot of students as traditionally students go to ski just after their exam sessions of the first semester.

Everyone went back to Belgium at the same time at the end of the holidays, and that led to multiple hotspots appearing simultaneously everywhere in Belgium.

This was our mistake I guess, everyone coming back from Italy should have been quarantined but we were still underestimating the consequences of the pandemic at that time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 19, 2020, 03:50:49 AM
To complete my post above about the Belgian situation:

What happened is that Italy started to get hit during the carnival holidays in Belgium (the week of 24th February), and lot of Belgians were on ski holiday there. There were also a lot of students as traditionally students go to ski just after their exam sessions of the first semester.

Everyone went back to Belgium at the same time at the end of the holidays, and that led to multiple hotspots appearing simultaneously everywhere in Belgium.

This was our mistake I guess, everyone coming back from Italy should have been quarantined but we were still underestimating the consequences of the pandemic at that time.
We saw a similar pattern in my rural part of the UK where a cluster of cases from a school skiing trip to Northern Italy in February was dealt with fairly easily and after that it was mostly refugees coming down from London before the lockdown started (25 of 28 cases were "out of county" at one point).  Locally we are now down to only 5 ICU cases in ICU beds created for 80.  Much of the UK is doing similarly OK, the big problem is London which has the same issues as New York: high levels of international transit, crowded public transport, large social gatherings and politicians who delayed putting social distancing in place.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: marty998 on April 19, 2020, 06:48:18 AM
Presenting this as factual is dishonest and irresponsible. No one knows the fatality rate of this virus.
There's the virus itself, and then there's the medical care.

In my state of Victoria here in Australia, we've had about 1,400 cases and 15 deaths. An international study has said our testing is catching at least 84% of the infected, maybe up to 92%. So the death rate is a bit under 1%. But... we're talking about, for example this weekend, 30 people in hospital, 12 of whom in intensive care. And the state had ~500 ICU beds before this, we're building 4,500 more. And we're looking at ~10 new cases a day.

In other words, every covid-19 patient in my state can get early access to medical care, and if they need critical or intensive care, they get it, the staff aren't overwhelmed, no medicines are running out, and so on. If it's physically possible to stop that person getting really sick, or physically possible to stop that really sick person dying, they'll manage it. Contrast this with this ICU nurse's story from NYC.

https://kristenfmartins.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/shit-is-real/ (https://kristenfmartins.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/shit-is-real/)

It's like saying, "What's the death rate of someone who has a cardiac arrest?" Well, if there is just me with first aid and one casualty we get one figure. Now we add an AED and the figure improves. Now we add paramedics within 10 minutes and the figure improves more, still. Okay, now we add a second person having a heart attack, and there's still just me, the AED and the single pair of paramedics. Now let's add a third. And so on.

What's the death rate of someone who has covid-19? Well, it depends. Is there one patient, or 10,000? And that's why Australia did the lockdown: not only so there'd be less people infected, but so that more of those who are infected will survive.

Now, obviously we can talk about particular lockdown measures (my state has closed playgrounds but keeps park water fountains open, which is the wrong way around), and we can talk about their other costs (suicides rise with unemployment, marriages break up, substance abuse increases). But it keeps the number of infected down, and it improves the survival rate of the infected, because the medical system doesn't get overwhelmed.

This man gets it. Thank you Kyle.

I've tried to refrain from commenting here as much as I can but there is so much nonsense being spouted.

I'm a healthy young man. If I get Covid-19, I'm statistically unlikely to notice it. But in 14 days I'll be in contact with the little old lady down the hallway who likes to have a chat, 300 people at work, 2000 people on the train into work, a couple of hundred people at my running club, however many at the grocery store. And I'm a friggin introvert who shies away from people.

Those people at work and those people on the train live all over Sydney, and come into contact with the full range of demographics.

Italy started with 2 cases. Two fucking cases.

This needs to be zeroed out completely for two weeks. Then you can start lifting lockdowns. At least until the virus mutates into something less deadly.  (viruses are smart like that. A dead host isn't any good to it, they learn quickly).

And for fucks sake herd immunity takes generations to develop naturally without vaccinations. It's called natural selection. It randomly determines which offspring are resistant and which are not. But some of you were obviously not taught evolution in school so you wouldn't know that would you?

Letting her rip and assuming anti-bodies will save you is irresponsible unscientifically proven garbage against this virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: partgypsy on April 19, 2020, 07:27:11 AM
Unfortunately, herd immunity is not "the way to go". As others point out it will take years for say in the US to reach levels that instill herd immunity. If you want to open it up and let herd immunity take care of it, our healthcare system will be overwhelmed, we will lose doctors, nurses, respiratory techs either from illness or burnout, which will increase morbidity and mortality from all other causes. I do think that various parts of the country will partially open up, and whether things will stay open, or go back to closures will be based on changing data. This going to take at least a year and a half to go through. I just want the decisions to open or partially open or remain close be based on epidemiological information than political or pressure from individuals agitating. Some of the negative effects of isolation, particularly economic, can be ameliorated by the gov. Government can't bring people back to life.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 07:46:10 AM
Unfortunately, herd immunity is not "the way to go". As others point out it will take years for say in the US to reach levels that instill herd immunity. If you want to open it up and let herd immunity take care of it, our healthcare system will be overwhelmed, we will lose doctors, nurses, respiratory techs either from illness or burnout, which will increase morbidity and mortality from all other causes. I do think that various parts of the country will partially open up, and whether things will stay open, or go back to closures will be based on changing data. This going to take at least a year and a half to go through. I just want the decisions to open or partially open or remain close be based on epidemiological information than political or pressure from individuals agitating. Some of the negative effects of isolation, particularly economic, can be ameliorated by the gov. Government can't bring people back to life.
Amen to every word of this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 19, 2020, 09:26:33 AM
I have no problem with the protests and support that right. But it would be just as effective done 6 ft apart while wearing a mask. They may, or may not be immune. They may, or may not be be asymptomatic. They may, or may not become infected by a fellow protester. But in any case they will likely be around others after the protest who may more readily become ill or die from the disease. A nurse or doctor or first responder who can't avoid them or those they may infect.
I have yet to see egillespie add much of value to any conversation on this forum in all of their whopping 86 posts. I think you're being trolled, @spartana. I saw the news of those protesters, too. Unbelievably clueless and fucking inconsiderate too boot. Example: my brother is deathly allergic to eggs. Most vaccinations contain egg whites, ergo, he can't have them. We need to develop herd mentality to protect the vulnerable among us. It's not just old people who are at risk.
You are probably right. I get peeved that people don't care that their actions, while not harmful to themselves (although I wouldn't count on that), can be deadly to even a young healthy person or child - or be transmitted to multiples of young healthy people who then can transmit it to other more vulnerable people. Or first responders (several young healthy and very very dead nurses, doctors, firefighters, and police in my state) who interact with many others.

Some people are just inherently selfish and self-centered and bristle at the slightest notion that they might be inconvenienced to protect others. And yes, I agree that we are being trolled by someone who is not arguing in good faith.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 19, 2020, 09:29:53 AM
To complete my post above about the Belgian situation:

What happened is that Italy started to get hit during the carnival holidays in Belgium (the week of 24th February), and lot of Belgians were on ski holiday there. There were also a lot of students as traditionally students go to ski just after their exam sessions of the first semester.

Everyone went back to Belgium at the same time at the end of the holidays, and that led to multiple hotspots appearing simultaneously everywhere in Belgium.

This was our mistake I guess, everyone coming back from Italy should have been quarantined but we were still underestimating the consequences of the pandemic at that time.
We saw a similar pattern in my rural part of the UK where a cluster of cases from a school skiing trip to Northern Italy in February was dealt with fairly easily and after that it was mostly refugees coming down from London before the lockdown started (25 of 28 cases were "out of county" at one point).  Locally we are now down to only 5 ICU cases in ICU beds created for 80.  Much of the UK is doing similarly OK, the big problem is London which has the same issues as New York: high levels of international transit, crowded public transport, large social gatherings and politicians who delayed putting social distancing in place.

Funny, in NL it's a bit different. The worst affected places are all rural, not urban. My hometown and a few other towns were hit pretty early on - likely Covid-19 came to the country early to mid-February. Likely through people coming back from skiing in Italy. During the carnival week the virus spread like wildfire through the community - everyone is in close contact with each other, zero awareness of the potential risks because at that point there are no known cases in our country at all. My relative was likely infected at a carnival party. But for the virus to spread so very fast at that point it must have already arrived 1-2 weeks earlier. The first official case in the country happened on the Thursday of that week but it must have been around for weeks. It's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. The symptoms are a lot like the flu and elderly people dying from pneumonia is something that isn't uncommon in February.

But ever since that week and still up to this day, the virus is spreading fast in villages and much slower in the city. My theory it's because villages are so close-knit and people in the city have less social contacts. According to village gossip one of the sources of the virus is the local dentist who came back from Italy in the first week of February. No idea if that's true but it does explain why the virus was able to spread so quickly. And we know several carnival parties (one especially for the elderly) and a church choir rehearsal were big catalysts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: TomTX on April 19, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: js82 on April 19, 2020, 10:03:39 AM
I have no problem with the protests and support that right. But it would be just as effective done 6 ft apart while wearing a mask. They may, or may not be immune. They may, or may not be be asymptomatic. They may, or may not become infected by a fellow protester. But in any case they will likely be around others after the protest who may more readily become ill or die from the disease. A nurse or doctor or first responder who can't avoid them or those they may infect.
I have yet to see egillespie add much of value to any conversation on this forum in all of their whopping 86 posts. I think you're being trolled, @spartana. I saw the news of those protesters, too. Unbelievably clueless and fucking inconsiderate too boot. Example: my brother is deathly allergic to eggs. Most vaccinations contain egg whites, ergo, he can't have them. We need to develop herd mentality to protect the vulnerable among us. It's not just old people who are at risk.
You are probably right. I get peeved that people don't care that their actions, while not harmful to themselves (although I wouldn't count on that), can be deadly to even a young healthy person or child - or be transmitted to multiples of young healthy people who then can transmit it to other more vulnerable people. Or first responders (several young healthy and very very dead nurses, doctors, firefighters, and police in my state) who interact with many others.

I 100% share this view.

I empathize with people that have been put in a bad spot by the shutdown - their concerns/fears/struggles are completely legitimate and we shouldn't downplay them at all.  I acknowledge that what we're currently doing is not practically sustainable for more than a few additional weeks due to the economic cascade that will happen.  I recognize that social distancing is tough in a multitude of different ways - whether you're a newly-unemployed single person living alone who's not getting enough human contact right now, or whether you're a parent asked to take on the impossible task of working and teaching your kids simultaneously.  The view that at some point the costs of keeping things closed will exceed the costs of opening things up is something that I acknowledge, and something that merits detailed study to understand what the different paths forward might look like.

What I will not accept is cavalier attitudes towards transmitting the disease(i.e. closely spaced public gatherings without protection) - while we're going to have to reopen some locations sooner than we want from a public health perspective, that doesn't give us license to be careless on a personal level while doing so.  While we're opening things up, we still need to be taking steps to minimize disease transmission. Because while some of our personal odds may be pretty good due to our age and health, most(all) of us have older coworkers, neighbors, and/or relatives whose odds are firmly in the "not worth risking it" territory.

This is where we need to treat this situation with nuance.   Even if you believe that we need to start reopening things right now because the costs of not doing so are unacceptably high, there are still a lot of little things we need to do to protect each other (particularly the most vulnerable) while we're trying to keep our economy afloat.  Things that don't require us to close down businesses, and don't cost much in the way of time/money, but just might help cut transmission.  But with all the bluster in the political scene, I worry that this gets lost and some who have pushed to one edge of the debate will let their desire to get back to normal stop them from taking some pretty basic precautions while doing so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: bacchi on April 19, 2020, 10:18:24 AM
Using the lowest IFR mentioned, we’re looking at 330m x 0.5 infection rate (low end of predicted exposure) x 0.001 = 165k deaths in the US. For comparison, about 40k people die of the flu per year. I guess we will see how well the parts of the country that open up before this peaks fare. If the country as a whole does as poorly as NYC/NJ we’re looking at several hundred thousand deaths (330m US population /16m NY/Nj population= 20, multiplied by 21,000 deaths = 420,000 deaths nationwide). My guess is it’ll be somewhere in between. That’s a lot of deaths just to avoid a few months of economic distress.

An older neighbor (~70 years) commented to me yesterday about the protestors, "I've never felt so sacrificial."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.
Yeah, that one and the one I mentioned above are like the Obama birthers. No amount of evidence is going to convince them they're not correct. Ultimately they're just...oh, nevermind, it's just not worth the energy...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on April 19, 2020, 11:23:26 AM



I think it would be a good idea to Constitutionally institute additional restrictions on governmental power so we can avoid such a hysterical and irrational response in the future.


I'm supportive of the vast majority of restrictions imposed pursuant to the police power.

However, there are  instances of abuse of the police power by some governors and officials.

Would that the abusers'  sovereign immunity could be undone and they  could be sued  for money damages.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 04:11:26 PM
OMG, you guys. Grab a kleenex (if you have one) before reading this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hear-dad-daughter-stays-phone-120345094.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Gremlin on April 19, 2020, 04:25:17 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.

I completely disagree with your assertion that this comment did not age well.  Bloop Bloop continues to show that it does not worry him in the slightest.

...or do you mean the bit about only causing a miniscule number of deaths outside of China? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 19, 2020, 04:38:00 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.
Yeah, that one and the one I mentioned above are like the Obama birthers. No amount of evidence is going to convince them they're not correct. Ultimately they're just...oh, nevermind, it's just not worth the energy...

It still doesn't worry me in the slightest.

I was wrong about it causing a minuscule number of deaths. I guess some countries didn't handle it so well.

Death toll in my country of 25 million is 70 (youngest victim is 40 years old, majority of deaths were either former cancer patients, nursing home residents or were stuck on a stricken cruise liner) so I think we have done well to get through it.

Three more weeks then lockdown ends and the sun continues to shine.

Hopefully other countries get their act together.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 19, 2020, 05:52:07 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.
Yeah, that one and the one I mentioned above are like the Obama birthers. No amount of evidence is going to convince them they're not correct. Ultimately they're just...oh, nevermind, it's just not worth the energy...

It still doesn't worry me in the slightest.

I was wrong about it causing a minuscule number of deaths. I guess some countries didn't handle it so well.

Death toll in my country of 25 million is 70 (youngest victim is 40 years old, majority of deaths were either former cancer patients, nursing home residents or were stuck on a stricken cruise liner) so I think we have done well to get through it.

Three more weeks then lockdown ends and the sun continues to shine.

Hopefully other countries get their act together.
Sure, but your country's experience isn't everybody else's experience. Some of us have to play the cards we're dealt and having people from other places tell us our fears are ridiculously unfounded despite factual evidence to the contrary is not helpful in the least. If you're not posting to be helpful, then perhaps you're just posting to hear yourself talk. How is that helpful? <--- Rhetorical question, no need to answer. You are by far not the worst offender on this topic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Bloop Bloop on April 19, 2020, 05:59:00 PM
That's all true. I posted my own thoughts on it then got called out on it so I responded with my own further thoughts. If I hadn't been called out I wouldn't have responded.

No doubt my initial impressions were coloured by the fact that I live in a country with excellent universal healthcare and a responsible government which has mitigated the health impact of the virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BNgarden on April 19, 2020, 06:34:44 PM
Interesting economist research outlined here about approaches to rule-following for greater good:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/covid-19-rule-breakers-elinor-ostrom-1.5536099 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/covid-19-rule-breakers-elinor-ostrom-1.5536099)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 19, 2020, 07:27:14 PM
No doubt my initial impressions were coloured by the fact that I live in a country with excellent universal healthcare and a responsible government which has mitigated the health impact of the virus.
Ooh... burn.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Lews Therin on April 19, 2020, 07:28:45 PM
No doubt my initial impressions were coloured by the fact that I live in a country with excellent universal healthcare and a responsible government which has mitigated the health impact of the virus.
Ooh... burn.

Agreed. That was an excellent cutting down of most countries. Well played Sir. I tip my hat to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 19, 2020, 08:11:43 PM
Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

This comment did not age well at all.
Yeah, that one and the one I mentioned above are like the Obama birthers. No amount of evidence is going to convince them they're not correct. Ultimately they're just...oh, nevermind, it's just not worth the energy...

It still doesn't worry me in the slightest.

I was wrong about it causing a minuscule number of deaths. I guess some countries didn't handle it so well.

Death toll in my country of 25 million is 70 (youngest victim is 40 years old, majority of deaths were either former cancer patients, nursing home residents or were stuck on a stricken cruise liner) so I think we have done well to get through it.

Three more weeks then lockdown ends and the sun continues to shine.

Hopefully other countries get their act together.
Sure, but your country's experience isn't everybody else's experience. Some of us have to play the cards we're dealt and having people from other places tell us our fears are ridiculously unfounded despite factual evidence to the contrary is not helpful in the least. If you're not posting to be helpful, then perhaps you're just posting to hear yourself talk. How is that helpful? <--- Rhetorical question, no need to answer. You are by far not the worst offender on this topic.

Some of us are in countries doing well (NZ) but still horrified at the state of play in other countries. I just can't fathom the "non-believers".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 09:35:12 AM
Infection rate maths from Germany, which can do 650,000 tests per week for a population of 83.2 million (2019).  (And Germany has more ICU beds per population than USA, I think?)

Enlightening, sub-titled part of a press conference w Angela Merkel:
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1250682200640704519 (https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1250682200640704519)

I kept hearing people mention this segment and glad I have finally seen it.  Makes you also realise how crazy the "natural" R of around 3 was....  and what a game changer it must have been when we got vaccines for Measles, Mumps, Chicken Pox, etc. with even higher R numbers (though I guess - for all of social memory at least - a significant inbuilt immunity from adults who had it and survived it).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 20, 2020, 11:32:46 AM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 20, 2020, 12:02:00 PM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.

I've seen as high as 90% mortality figures for North American indigenous communities  when Europeans arrived.  Bubonic plague in Europe was about 1/3, but that is an average.  In many places the whole village died.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 20, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.

I've seen as high as 90% mortality figures for North American indigenous communities  when Europeans arrived.  Bubonic plague in Europe was about 1/3, but that is an average.  In many places the whole village died.

To be fair, the Europeans knowingly infected native communities with blankets and trade goods that has been used by people who were sick in many cases.  It wasn't a natural/organic spread of disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 20, 2020, 01:32:35 PM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.

I've seen as high as 90% mortality figures for North American indigenous communities  when Europeans arrived.  Bubonic plague in Europe was about 1/3, but that is an average.  In many places the whole village died.

To be fair, the Europeans knowingly infected native communities with blankets and trade goods that has been used by people who were sick in many cases.  It wasn't a natural/organic spread of disease.

What I have read (sorry various sources and nothing I can lay my hands on) was that though this was the original source, at least in the British areas, the various diseases spread like wildfire.  Most communities had well developed trade routes, so spread was easy.  Think how easily measles spreads, and Europeans have some resistance.   Smallpox spreads really easily, so any exposure to either an infected person or virus-laden materials was dangerous.

Smallpox certainly helped Cortes in Mexico, it was carried by a person
"It took almost two years for smallpox to spread to the mainland and reach Tenochtitlan. Smallpox is thought to have travelled to Mexico via Cuba, carried by a slave called Francisco Eguia on a ship carrying a second Spanish army, led by Pánfilo de Narváez, which had been instructed to capture Cortes and bring him back to Spain. Within four months of Eguia arriving in Cuba, smallpox had spread to Tenochtitlan."  from https://www.pastmedicalhistory.co.uk/smallpox-and-the-conquest-of-mexico/ (https://www.pastmedicalhistory.co.uk/smallpox-and-the-conquest-of-mexico/)

We seem to have forgotten how devastating an easily spread virus can be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 20, 2020, 02:53:54 PM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.

I've seen as high as 90% mortality figures for North American indigenous communities  when Europeans arrived.  Bubonic plague in Europe was about 1/3, but that is an average.  In many places the whole village died.

To be fair, the Europeans knowingly infected native communities with blankets and trade goods that has been used by people who were sick in many cases.  It wasn't a natural/organic spread of disease.

The initial outbreaks were totally innocent and caused the largest loss of life.

After that, yes, selected groups infected tribes on purpose, but the  overwhelming damage to native American numbers had already been done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 20, 2020, 06:13:39 PM
Georgia and South Carolina are opening. Georgia specifically wants to start with gyms and salons...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 20, 2020, 06:26:11 PM
Georgia and South Carolina are opening. Georgia specifically wants to start with gyms and salons...

Gyms, great, hard breathing is so not going to produce more droplets (/s).  Hair salons are doable with good precautions, but I would want masks on staff and clients, and gloves on staff and clients.  And lots of spacing.  I can think of other stores that would be a lot more suitable for the first easing of restrictions.

Not that I  am advocating any easing right now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 20, 2020, 06:29:55 PM
Georgia and South Carolina are opening. Georgia specifically wants to start with gyms and salons...

Gyms, great, hard breathing is so not going to produce more droplets (/s).  Hair salons are doable with good precautions, but I would want masks on staff and clients, and gloves on staff and clients.  And lots of spacing.  I can think of other stores that would be a lot more suitable for the first easing of restrictions.

Not that I  am advocating any easing right now.

How do you cut someone's hair while they are wearing a mask?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on April 20, 2020, 06:44:23 PM
Of course salons. Because the HORROR of having your hair not perfect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: MoseyingAlong on April 20, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Of course salons. Because the HORROR of having your hair not perfect.

@Sibley Did you see the article about the mayor of Chicago getting her hair done?
I don't follow Chicago politics so no idea if she's a good mayor or not.
First exposure to her was a fabulous video of different ways to say "Stay at Home" to convince different personalities. It was funny and got the point across.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/top-videos-home/lightfoot-shares-hilarious-psa-urging-people-to-stay-home-save-lives/2247788/

Then a few days later there was a thing about her getting her hair done. It seemed to completely undo what she had done with the PSA video.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/im-out-in-the-public-eye-mayor-lightfoot-gets-haircut-amid-social-distancing-orders/

All to say, apparently some people take their hair a lot more seriously than I do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 20, 2020, 07:30:53 PM
Georgia and South Carolina are opening. Georgia specifically wants to start with gyms and salons...

Gyms, great, hard breathing is so not going to produce more droplets (/s).  Hair salons are doable with good precautions, but I would want masks on staff and clients, and gloves on staff and clients.  And lots of spacing.  I can think of other stores that would be a lot more suitable for the first easing of restrictions.

Not that I  am advocating any easing right now.

How do you cut someone's hair while they are wearing a mask?

Beats me.  But I am sure a good stylist could manage.  Maybe they should rethink their priority list?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Michael in ABQ on April 20, 2020, 07:33:34 PM
That’s why so many indigenous communities were rolled when the European explorers came. The death toll from the common cold itself was horrific. Smallpox was really bad too. Herd immunity is an amazing thing.

I've seen as high as 90% mortality figures for North American indigenous communities  when Europeans arrived.  Bubonic plague in Europe was about 1/3, but that is an average.  In many places the whole village died.

To be fair, the Europeans knowingly infected native communities with blankets and trade goods that has been used by people who were sick in many cases.  It wasn't a natural/organic spread of disease.

The initial outbreaks were totally innocent and caused the largest loss of life.

After that, yes, selected groups infected tribes on purpose, but the  overwhelming damage to native American numbers had already been done.

By the time Lewis & Clark were exploring west of the Mississippi in 1804 they found all these vast uninhabited areas because the vast majority of natives had died out decades or centuries before. Same thing when the Pilgrims landed - most of the villages close to the ocean were long abandoned as everyone died and tribes consolidated in a few places. There were numerous failed colonies in North America during the 1500s. Even the most casual contact would have started viruses spreading far and wide and germ theory was still centuries away. Hernando de Soto brought pigs along when he explored the American south around 1540. These were the mobile food supply for the expedition and inevitably some of these escaped, started breeding, and spread all over. They brought along the zoonotic diseases that Europeans had long since developed immunity too and infected natives far beyond where de Soto's expedition actually travelled. Per the CDC "Scientists estimate that more than 6 out of every 10 known infectious diseases in people can be spread from animals, and 3 out of every 4 new or emerging infectious diseases in people come from animals."
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Sibley on April 20, 2020, 07:39:18 PM
Of course salons. Because the HORROR of having your hair not perfect.

@Sibley Did you see the article about the mayor of Chicago getting her hair done?
I don't follow Chicago politics so no idea if she's a good mayor or not.
First exposure to her was a fabulous video of different ways to say "Stay at Home" to convince different personalities. It was funny and got the point across.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/top-videos-home/lightfoot-shares-hilarious-psa-urging-people-to-stay-home-save-lives/2247788/

Then a few days later there was a thing about her getting her hair done. It seemed to completely undo what she had done with the PSA video.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/im-out-in-the-public-eye-mayor-lightfoot-gets-haircut-amid-social-distancing-orders/

All to say, apparently some people take their hair a lot more seriously than I do.

I heard about that, but don't really watch the news or much tv.

My hair is some variation of interesting lately. Should probably ask a coworker if it shows in the video calls. Not sure that I care though, the team is taking a pretty relaxed approach.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Moonwaves on April 21, 2020, 02:36:17 AM
I thought the thing with hairdressers was ridiculous, too. They were left open longer than other places here and belong to the first tranche of places that are allowed to re-open from this week (but they have to put strict hygiene measures in place). The point was made at one of the press conferences that this is important for some people for medical reasons but especially for older people (mostly women) who are just not able or struggle to wash their own hair. These are the people who go to the hairdresser every week and it's not just because of vanity. I haven't been to a hairdresser for years, so I was quite dismissive of the people screaming for them at first, too. But as in so many areas, if you look beyond your own experiences/bubble/privilege, you might find aspects you hadn't thought about before.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Imma on April 21, 2020, 03:13:40 AM
Yes, there's the aspect of people who can't wash their own hair due to old age or disability, and I think it's also practically impossible to stop hairdressers from doing their work illegally. A lot of hairdressers don't work from a salon but from their own home or they visit customers in their homes. And most are self-employed and low income so they can't really refuse to work illegally. It may be safer to allow it again under strict conditions rather than risk hairdressers doing their  work in unsafe situations. I think that's true for most of the beauty industry. People aren't going to paint their own nails just because of a virus. They will seek out the people still doing it illegally.

Also, we are mustachians and most of us don't care that much about our appearance, but we are the exceptions. My own mother has several inches of grey roots now and her hairdresser is a close friend. As soon as he is allowed to open again she'll be in that chair, I'm sure about that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: KBecks on April 21, 2020, 06:12:10 AM
The change that I plan to make when I go back to my stylist is that I'll ask her not to talk and I won't talk as much, and I think that will reduce risks.  I have no urgent need to go back but I have bought a gift card from her and will likely buy another gift card soon because I care about her and her family in this challenging situation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on April 21, 2020, 06:42:51 AM
My wife only gets her hair done about twice per year, and she conveniently got it done in February. She doesn't obsess over her hair, but she's also not willing to let me cut her hair (I've been cutting my own hair with her assistance for a year or two now).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: LightTripper on April 21, 2020, 08:03:25 AM
I did my son's at the weekend and it was surprisingly OK (mainly that he was willing to sit still for the necessary amount of time as he only just turned 3).  We even had a compliment on it from a neighbour!

I did already have proper hair cutting scissors and comb for doing my daughter's fringe though.  And I don't think I'd risk my skills on an adult unless we got really desperate... suspect my OH will have a go with clippers at some point!  Mine can just get increasingly shaggy until it's long enough to tie back (not long now).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 21, 2020, 09:19:09 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fully booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who meet a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely thanks to the fact that the terrasses for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on April 21, 2020, 09:21:36 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fullt booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who mets a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely Thanks to the fact that the terrassen for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.

Common sense seems to be a bit more lacking here in the States.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: JoJo on April 21, 2020, 09:26:12 AM
Before they open gyms, they need to open all outdoor sports courts, trails, etc.   It's so sad to go by the parks here... they've locked or roped off the courts.  It's a shame that if a couple people want to shoot some hoops or play tennis, it's impossible now.  But I guess the problem is if you allow that, how to you prevent huge groups from playing some closer contact sports.   From studies I've seen covid dies really quick in the sun. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: ixtap on April 21, 2020, 09:52:24 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fullt booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who mets a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely Thanks to the fact that the terrassen for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.

Meanwhile, folks in the hardest hit states are protesting and one of the hard hit states insists on being the first to reopen businesses that involve close contact and heavy breathing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 23, 2020, 12:22:51 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fullt booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who mets a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely Thanks to the fact that the terrassen for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.

Meanwhile, folks in the hardest hit states are protesting and one of the hard hit states insists on being the first to reopen businesses that involve close contact and heavy breathing.
I'm expecting a lot of areas in the US to have a bad second or third wave... and an unhappy Christmas season as cases multiply. The various state govts that want to open now will want to stay open for the profitable Thanksgiving and Christmas season even if it gets really bad.

I understand  and agree with the necessity of getting people back working as soon as safely possible. But the perversity and lack of critical thinking demonstrated in some of the decisions being made now is really hard to watch.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 23, 2020, 12:57:33 AM
So on CBC today (I'm Canadian, thank God) they were talking about bringing the kids back to school (highly premature as a topic of discussion, but of keen interest to anyone with a child).
A woman who I think was a teacher and definitely a Nice White Lady called in to say that it was very important to educate the children that they must be especially careful of the people of color in their classes, because people of color are much worse off when they get COVID, as we can see from the terrible statistics coming out of the States.
She meant well, I'm sure. But it was off in so many ways. She had decided that being brownish meant you were susceptible to COVID and completely ignored the reality that more black people and latina are dying not because they have more melanin, but because as a group they have much higher rates of co-morbidity; obesity, which is a huge risk factor, and other pre-existing conditions. Also much more likely to be poor, marginalized, and blown-off/sent home instead of receiving care.
Also, you there is no 'be more careful' with some people than others. It isn't okay to be less careful with Suzy because she's white and supposedly less likely to die if she gets sick. And what does 'being more careful' look like to children? I'll bet it looks like staying away from those kids. And I bet it feels like shunning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Laura33 on April 23, 2020, 05:55:25 AM
She had decided that being brownish meant you were susceptible to COVID and completely ignored the reality that more black people and latina are dying not because they have more melanin, but because as a group they have much higher rates of co-morbidity; obesity, which is a huge risk factor, and other pre-existing conditions. Also much more likely to be poor, marginalized, and blown-off/sent home instead of receiving care.

Not to mention being more likely to be in those lower-pay positions that require contact with many people and surfaces all day, with no option to work from home, and without the resources or paid leave to allow them to take unpaid leave.

First highly likely case at my DH's work is of a co-worker's spouse who works security for a delivery company.  He's the guy who deploys the thermometer to read everyone coming into the building. 

I swear, some of these jobs deserve hazard pay.  Yet the people who are putting themselves most at risk every day are often the people making the least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Leisured on April 23, 2020, 06:59:33 AM
Ixtap asked:
How do you cut someone's hair while they are wearing a mask?

The customer could hold the mask over his/her mouth with his/her hand, so the loops for the ears are not used. My wife cuts my hair.

Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 23, 2020, 07:23:09 AM
So on CBC today (I'm Canadian, thank God) they were talking about bringing the kids back to school (highly premature as a topic of discussion, but of keen interest to anyone with a child).
A woman who I think was a teacher and definitely a Nice White Lady called in to say that it was very important to educate the children that they must be especially careful of the people of color in their classes, because people of color are much worse off when they get COVID, as we can see from the terrible statistics coming out of the States.
She meant well, I'm sure. But it was off in so many ways. She had decided that being brownish meant you were susceptible to COVID and completely ignored the reality that more black people and latina are dying not because they have more melanin, but because as a group they have much higher rates of co-morbidity; obesity, which is a huge risk factor, and other pre-existing conditions. Also much more likely to be poor, marginalized, and blown-off/sent home instead of receiving care.
Also, you there is no 'be more careful' with some people than others. It isn't okay to be less careful with Suzy because she's white and supposedly less likely to die if she gets sick. And what does 'being more careful' look like to children? I'll bet it looks like staying away from those kids. And I bet it feels like shunning.

Socioeconomic factors matter.  Not always, of course, that nursing home (Herron) with so many deaths was an expensive one.  But of course in many ways seniors residences are like being poor, in that residents have such little private space and no ability to truly self isolate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 23, 2020, 07:34:15 AM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 23, 2020, 07:38:43 AM
Before they open gyms, they need to open all outdoor sports courts, trails, etc.   It's so sad to go by the parks here... they've locked or roped off the courts.  It's a shame that if a couple people want to shoot some hoops or play tennis, it's impossible now.  But I guess the problem is if you allow that, how to you prevent huge groups from playing some closer contact sports.   From studies I've seen covid dies really quick in the sun.
D
By "hoops", do you mean the classic court game of basketball? Where the ball is passed from hand to hand and the players mostly move in a clump up and down the court? Where they run a lot, take deep breaths, and get sweaty? Where there is a lot of close body contact? That's the kind of court you are suggesting we need to re-open?

I see closed recreational facilities and I think it's smart, not sad. We're trying to save lives here. If you want to talk about sad, let's consider all the people who are fucking dying through no fault of their own.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 23, 2020, 07:49:06 AM
Before they open gyms, they need to open all outdoor sports courts, trails, etc.   It's so sad to go by the parks here... they've locked or roped off the courts.  It's a shame that if a couple people want to shoot some hoops or play tennis, it's impossible now.  But I guess the problem is if you allow that, how to you prevent huge groups from playing some closer contact sports.   From studies I've seen covid dies really quick in the sun.
D
By "hoops", do you mean the classic court game of basketball? Where the ball is passed from hand to hand and the players mostly move in a clump up and down the court? Where they run a lot, take deep breaths, and get sweaty? Where there is a lot of close body contact? That's the kind of court you are suggesting we need to re-open?

I see closed recreational facilities and I think it's smart, not sad. We're trying to save lives here. If you want to talk about sad, let's consider all the people who are fucking dying through no fault of their own.

In Minneapolis they’ve taken the hoops down at the basketball courts, precisely because people were ignoring stay at home orders and shooting hoops down at the park like idiots.

Not so in St. Paul. I walked past a school yesterday (coincidentally, the one where Philando Castile worked) where a raucous, high-contact basketball game was happening.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: the_fixer on April 23, 2020, 09:36:42 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fully booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who meet a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely thanks to the fact that the terrasses for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.
We have a friend that is a hair dresser and since Colorado announced the they are allowed to go back to work her phone has been ringing off the hook, as of yesterday she was booked solid everyday two months out and this is within a few days of the announcement.

I think it is a catastrophic decision, Colorado started out doing a good job, failed at testing and now has decided to open a bunch of stuff up.

The other day the governor was going over the plans and you could tell he was defeated, he has given up and basically going to let it rip admitting that they hope to keep the hospitalizations under our  bed capacity but will adjust if that is not possible.

I am taking personal responsibility for myself and my family, I do not trust the government to protect us they have too many conflicting interests.

Sporting my corona cut, staying at home and staying safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: DadJokes on April 23, 2020, 09:55:41 AM
Tennessee is opening up May 1; our departmental director emailed the whole department asking for people's opinions about going back to work then, as opposed to continuing to work remotely.

Our work can be done almost entirely remotely. The only time we can't work at home is when doing physical walkthroughs for audits. Even if things were opening up with a reasonable timeline, I see no reason for us not to continue to work from home as long as possible. I said as much in my reply, and our director appears to feel the same way.

Besides the safety portion of it, I'm saving a lot of money and spending a lot more time with family under the current circumstances. I'll delay giving that up as long as possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 23, 2020, 11:01:08 AM
Do you really think a lot of people will visit the hair stylists? They have been open all the time here in Sweden as well as in Finland and they have very little customers. I read about a stylist that normally was fully booked months in advance and now had three haircuts during a day. Most of the people really don’t want to visit someone that you have a less than a meter from your face and who meet a lot of people.

The same with restaurants. Here they are open and they seem to have about 25 % of the previous business and I think that is largely thanks to the fact that the terrasses for outdoordining were opened earlier and the weather is really nice for the season. People buy takeout to support the restaurants.
We have a friend that is a hair dresser and since Colorado announced the they are allowed to go back to work her phone has been ringing off the hook, as of yesterday she was booked solid everyday two months out and this is within a few days of the announcement.

I think it is a catastrophic decision, Colorado started out doing a good job, failed at testing and now has decided to open a bunch of stuff up.

The other day the governor was going over the plans and you could tell he was defeated, he has given up and basically going to let it rip admitting that they hope to keep the hospitalizations under our  bed capacity but will adjust if that is not possible.

I am taking personal responsibility for myself and my family, I do not trust the government to protect us they have too many conflicting interests.

Sporting my corona cut, staying at home and staying safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t know what to say because it is so crazy! I would not want to work as a hairdresser now because with the amount of people you are meeting in a normal salon you will probably get corona and therefore also spread it to tens or hundreds of people in worst case.

I realised yesterday that I have made my opinion clear about going to my workplace when my colleague told me that she and another colleague would meet a woman we might recruit for lunch. The first lunch was cancelled due to the corona but now they were obviously going to meet. My boss had not even asked me this time because I had obviously made it clear without saying it at least to my boss that I don’t want to get back to the office because of the risk to get it from my colleagues that have a different view of social distancing then me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: mm1970 on April 23, 2020, 11:46:06 AM
Before they open gyms, they need to open all outdoor sports courts, trails, etc.   It's so sad to go by the parks here... they've locked or roped off the courts.  It's a shame that if a couple people want to shoot some hoops or play tennis, it's impossible now.  But I guess the problem is if you allow that, how to you prevent huge groups from playing some closer contact sports.   From studies I've seen covid dies really quick in the sun.
D
By "hoops", do you mean the classic court game of basketball? Where the ball is passed from hand to hand and the players mostly move in a clump up and down the court? Where they run a lot, take deep breaths, and get sweaty? Where there is a lot of close body contact? That's the kind of court you are suggesting we need to re-open?

I see closed recreational facilities and I think it's smart, not sad. We're trying to save lives here. If you want to talk about sad, let's consider all the people who are fucking dying through no fault of their own.

In Minneapolis they’ve taken the hoops down at the basketball courts, precisely because people were ignoring stay at home orders and shooting hoops down at the park like idiots.

Not so in St. Paul. I walked past a school yesterday (coincidentally, the one where Philando Castile worked) where a raucous, high-contact basketball game was happening.

Sigh.
Same here.  They've removed the BB hoops, but apparently people are still playing beach volleyball.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 23, 2020, 02:07:47 PM
Yesterday, in my entire country we had eight new cases, so we’re down to single digits. Over 12,000 tests were administered yesterday. We’ve had less than 80 deaths altogether.

We’ve had hairdressers open throughout. Masks haven’t been encouraged. No gyms, playgrounds or sporting areas are open. Resteraunts are take away or delivery only. Almost all shops have marked queueing spots outside, someone to regulate the entrants and marked queueing spots inside. We are supposed to stay at home unless we need to go out.

We’re discussing how we’ll ease restrictions. Some states are opening schools in a week (it’s the beginning of second term), some aren’t, and one is opening schools so each pupil gets one day a week face to face, and will gradually extend that. There is talk that travel restrictions may be eased soon (probably in a week, after the school holidays finish). Some beaches that were closed are opening for surfing and swimming only.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wolfpack Mustachian on April 23, 2020, 02:54:21 PM
Figured with the title of this topic, this would apply.

Has anyone seen the interview with the Mayor of Las Vegas and Anderson Cooper?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoSHB9pQk8

It's.....well, it's something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kris on April 23, 2020, 03:07:41 PM
Figured with the title of this topic, this would apply.

Has anyone seen the interview with the Mayor of Las Vegas and Anderson Cooper?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoSHB9pQk8

It's.....well, it's something.

Yeah, that woman is certifiable. Good lord.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Laura33 on April 23, 2020, 03:16:20 PM
Yesterday, in my entire country we had eight new cases, so we’re down to single digits. Over 12,000 tests were administered yesterday. We’ve had less than 80 deaths altogether.

Wow, that's awesome!  My state is still reporting 45-50 deaths and almost 1000 new cases per day.  We're not going anywhere anytime soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: scottish on April 23, 2020, 03:34:38 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on April 23, 2020, 03:43:59 PM
Yesterday, in my entire country we had eight new cases, so we’re down to single digits. Over 12,000 tests were administered yesterday. We’ve had less than 80 deaths altogether.

We’ve had hairdressers open throughout. Masks haven’t been encouraged. No gyms, playgrounds or sporting areas are open. Resteraunts are take away or delivery only. Almost all shops have marked queueing spots outside, someone to regulate the entrants and marked queueing spots inside. We are supposed to stay at home unless we need to go out.

We’re discussing how we’ll ease restrictions. Some states are opening schools in a week (it’s the beginning of second term), some aren’t, and one is opening schools so each pupil gets one day a week face to face, and will gradually extend that. There is talk that travel restrictions may be eased soon (probably in a week, after the school holidays finish). Some beaches that were closed are opening for surfing and swimming only.

One of my colleagues calls in from Australia to our semi-weekly check ins and said there were no new cases in his area, yet he is still staying in / self-quarantined until the restrictions are eased.  Guess you guys should start your own 'how can people be so incredibly smart' thread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 23, 2020, 07:07:54 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 23, 2020, 07:13:57 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Jack0Life on April 23, 2020, 07:31:55 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

I've been saying this from the beginning(even in the mask thread).
Gloves are effective when a doctor put them on. examine you and then throw them away immediately.
When you walk into the store with gloves on and I walk in with my bare hands(both with masks on), we are equal footing. You are touching everything with your gloves as I am with my bare hands. Your gloves are carrying any virus I might be also carrying with my bare hands. The difference is I sanitize my hands often while I'm in the store shopping while people with gloves on think they are invincible while wearing the same pair for the entire time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 23, 2020, 10:05:16 PM
I wear 'em, because DH put a box of gloves in my car and asked me to. Good enough for me. BTW, they are the kind d if gloves he always keeps in the garage (he's a painter), not surgical gloves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Warlord1986 on April 23, 2020, 10:18:03 PM
Figured with the title of this topic, this would apply.

Has anyone seen the interview with the Mayor of Las Vegas and Anderson Cooper?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoSHB9pQk8

It's.....well, it's something.

Yeah, that woman is certifiable. Good lord.

Anderson Cooper looked genuinely concerned when that woman ran her mouth. I feel kind of sorry for him. Bless him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Laura33 on April 24, 2020, 06:52:21 AM
I wear 'em, because DH put a box of gloves in my car and asked me to. Good enough for me. BTW, they are the kind d if gloves he always keeps in the garage (he's a painter), not surgical gloves.

FWIW, a doctor friend of mine is confused/marginally upset by all the people wearing gloves, because she says the virus lives much, much longer on glove material than it does on human hands (at least based on what she knows from medical info that was current last week). 
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: PoutineLover on April 24, 2020, 06:58:28 AM
Today in "Coronavirus: how can people be so incredibly stupid"
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-disinfectant-sunlight-science/index.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 24, 2020, 07:35:06 AM
Today in "Coronavirus: how can people be so incredibly stupid"
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-disinfectant-sunlight-science/index.html

Is Donald Trump saying something stupid (and potentially dangerous) even news any more?  This is a daily occurrence.  :P
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: better late on April 24, 2020, 07:43:48 AM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.

Not everyone has hand sanitizer or Lysol wipes. You use what you have be it wipes or gloves or bread bags.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 24, 2020, 07:52:00 AM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.

Not everyone has hand sanitizer or Lysol wipes. You use what you have be it wipes or gloves or bread bags.

I don't use any of what you're talking about, not because we don't have bread bags . . . but because they're all kinda useless.

I wear a home made cloth mask in the grocery store that I affix to my head before entering.  Then I get my groceries with bare hands, drive home, unload my groceries into the quarentine area where they will not be touched for three days.  My wife wipes down/disinfects any areas of the house that I touched, while I shower.  My face mask and clothing are then washed and ready for the next trip.

No concerns about transmission from inside my car, as it won't be used for more than a week when I next get groceries.


At what point would wearing gloves help anything?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: former player on April 24, 2020, 08:08:23 AM
I find that if I wear gloves in the store then I can put what I've bought in the boot of the car, toss the gloves in after them and get in the car hopefully virus-free.  Anything not perishable stays in the boot for 3 days, and no need to sanitise anything - although an outer layer of clothes does usually come off to go in a dropbox for three days before I get in the house, and I do wash hands and face as well just in case.  The car is then immediately available for emergencies, and it all saves on sanitiser too, which I have not got, just a damp soapy washcloth in a Tupperware in the car boot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 24, 2020, 08:10:01 AM
Gloves - my grocery store has hand sanitizer and wipes for the grocery cart, no need for gloves.  Bulk Barn has gloves - you enter, you put on gloves, you grab your cart, an employee grabs another cart and between the 2 carts you are 6 feet apart, employee does all the food transfers, when you leave you put the cart back, you take off your gloves.

Both work.

Both mean I bring food in and put it in its quarantine spot, wash my hands, take my shower, wash my clothes.  My N95 mask (had it from an old project) gets to dry out and not be used for several days.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on April 24, 2020, 09:29:17 AM
I find that if I wear gloves in the store then I can put what I've bought in the boot of the car, toss the gloves in after them and get in the car hopefully virus-free.  Anything not perishable stays in the boot for 3 days, and no need to sanitise anything - although an outer layer of clothes does usually come off to go in a dropbox for three days before I get in the house, and I do wash hands and face as well just in case.  The car is then immediately available for emergencies, and it all saves on sanitiser too, which I have not got, just a damp soapy washcloth in a Tupperware in the car boot.

This is what I do.  It prevents me from potentially contaminating the car, the garage door button, and the door going in and out of the house from the garage.  I leave the gloves in the car.  When I don't wear gloves, then I have to decontaminate all the above surfaces whenever I go out to a store, and it's a pain.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 24, 2020, 10:00:22 AM
I find that if I wear gloves in the store then I can put what I've bought in the boot of the car, toss the gloves in after them and get in the car hopefully virus-free.  Anything not perishable stays in the boot for 3 days, and no need to sanitise anything - although an outer layer of clothes does usually come off to go in a dropbox for three days before I get in the house, and I do wash hands and face as well just in case.  The car is then immediately available for emergencies, and it all saves on sanitiser too, which I have not got, just a damp soapy washcloth in a Tupperware in the car boot.

This is what I do.  It prevents me from potentially contaminating the car, the garage door button, and the door going in and out of the house from the garage.  I leave the gloves in the car.  When I don't wear gloves, then I have to decontaminate all the above surfaces whenever I go out to a store, and it's a pain.


I don't care about contaminating the car . . . because I'm only using it to get groceries every week or two and the virus doesn't last more than a couple days on surfaces.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: wenchsenior on April 24, 2020, 10:14:30 AM
I find that if I wear gloves in the store then I can put what I've bought in the boot of the car, toss the gloves in after them and get in the car hopefully virus-free.  Anything not perishable stays in the boot for 3 days, and no need to sanitise anything - although an outer layer of clothes does usually come off to go in a dropbox for three days before I get in the house, and I do wash hands and face as well just in case.  The car is then immediately available for emergencies, and it all saves on sanitiser too, which I have not got, just a damp soapy washcloth in a Tupperware in the car boot.

This is what I do.  It prevents me from potentially contaminating the car, the garage door button, and the door going in and out of the house from the garage.  I leave the gloves in the car.  When I don't wear gloves, then I have to decontaminate all the above surfaces whenever I go out to a store, and it's a pain.


I don't care about contaminating the car . . . because I'm only using it to get groceries every week or two and the virus doesn't last more than a couple days on surfaces.

That's fair.  We drive to different city parks to take walks every few days.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 24, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
I wear 'em, because DH put a box of gloves in my car and asked me to. Good enough for me. BTW, they are the kind d if gloves he always keeps in the garage (he's a painter), not surgical gloves.

FWIW, a doctor friend of mine is confused/marginally upset by all the people wearing gloves, because she says the virus lives much, much longer on glove material than it does on human hands (at least based on what she knows from medical info that was current last week).
I exit the car, put on my mask, pull two gloves out of the box in the back seat, close the door with my hip, lock the car,  put on the gloves just before grabbing a cart and entering the store. When I finish, I unload the groceries into the back of the car, return the cart, peel off the gloves, tucking them together and turning them inside out, go to front of car, remove mask, enter vehicle, drive home. Once there, I wash my hands, unload groceries, dispose of glove ball, then wash my hands again.

But that is not the point. I did not say it was completely effective, or even necessary. It certainly isn't environmentally friendly. I said I do it because DH gave them to me and asked me to use them. Good enough for me. Under the circumstances,  it seems entirely reasonable, even if it only makes him feel better. Of course, he does the same thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: SotI on April 24, 2020, 12:02:18 PM

I wear a home made cloth mask in the grocery store that I affix to my head before entering.  Then I get my groceries with bare hands, drive home, unload my groceries into the quarentine area where they will not be touched for three days.  My wife wipes down/disinfects any areas of the house that I touched, while I shower.  My face mask and clothing are then washed and ready for the next trip.

That's how I do it, as well. Still, DH prefers to wear gloves for picking up groceries but drops them in the bin straight after packing them. I decontaminate stuff separately (we are assuming worst, not probable case of infection).
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 24, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.

Not everyone has hand sanitizer or Lysol wipes. You use what you have be it wipes or gloves or bread bags.

I don't use any of what you're talking about, not because we don't have bread bags . . . but because they're all kinda useless.

I wear a home made cloth mask in the grocery store that I affix to my head before entering.  Then I get my groceries with bare hands, drive home, unload my groceries into the quarentine area where they will not be touched for three days.  My wife wipes down/disinfects any areas of the house that I touched, while I shower.  My face mask and clothing are then washed and ready for the next trip.

No concerns about transmission from inside my car, as it won't be used for more than a week when I next get groceries.


At what point would wearing gloves help anything?

Out of curiosity, how do you do with food that needs to be in the fridge and freezer?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 24, 2020, 12:38:21 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.

Not everyone has hand sanitizer or Lysol wipes. You use what you have be it wipes or gloves or bread bags.

I don't use any of what you're talking about, not because we don't have bread bags . . . but because they're all kinda useless.

I wear a home made cloth mask in the grocery store that I affix to my head before entering.  Then I get my groceries with bare hands, drive home, unload my groceries into the quarentine area where they will not be touched for three days.  My wife wipes down/disinfects any areas of the house that I touched, while I shower.  My face mask and clothing are then washed and ready for the next trip.

No concerns about transmission from inside my car, as it won't be used for more than a week when I next get groceries.


At what point would wearing gloves help anything?

Out of curiosity, how do you do with food that needs to be in the fridge and freezer?

Freezer food is almost entirely plastic baggie wrapped - that gets wiped down with a bleach/water mix then goes in the freezer.

Fridge food - the same for things that are plastic covered.  For stuff like apples/oranges/pears/plums they can sit out for a few days in our quarantine area.  Eggs were tricky for us because we didn't want them loose and rolling around the fridge but didn't have a good way to clean the cardboard carton.  Eventually we just kept an old empty carton, and now transfer the eggs into that after wiping them down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 24, 2020, 01:13:55 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.

This. I carry hand sanitizer and lysol wipes to the grocery store. I figure that sanitizing my hands on the way in and out and wiping down my cart, the credit card machine, and anything else I handle while shopping is more effective.

Not everyone has hand sanitizer or Lysol wipes. You use what you have be it wipes or gloves or bread bags.

I don't use any of what you're talking about, not because we don't have bread bags . . . but because they're all kinda useless.

I wear a home made cloth mask in the grocery store that I affix to my head before entering.  Then I get my groceries with bare hands, drive home, unload my groceries into the quarentine area where they will not be touched for three days.  My wife wipes down/disinfects any areas of the house that I touched, while I shower.  My face mask and clothing are then washed and ready for the next trip.

No concerns about transmission from inside my car, as it won't be used for more than a week when I next get groceries.


At what point would wearing gloves help anything?

Out of curiosity, how do you do with food that needs to be in the fridge and freezer?

Freezer food is almost entirely plastic baggie wrapped - that gets wiped down with a bleach/water mix then goes in the freezer.

Fridge food - the same for things that are plastic covered.  For stuff like apples/oranges/pears/plums they can sit out for a few days in our quarantine area.  Eggs were tricky for us because we didn't want them loose and rolling around the fridge but didn't have a good way to clean the cardboard carton.  Eventually we just kept an old empty carton, and now transfer the eggs into that after wiping them down.

I don’t go to food stores but I have to admit I have never considered doing all the stuff that you are doing to desinfect stuff and yourself. I put the food in their place after the delivery and this forum was the first time I read about what great length people are going too when shopping.

Eggs don’t need to be in the fridge. They are never in the fridge in stores here. Here the best before date for eggs is set for storage in room temperature but they will last longer in the fridge. Although due to my big egg consumption that is not a problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: lutorm on April 24, 2020, 01:20:48 PM
A while ago I read that there were _zero_ confirmed cases of transmission through food items. Does anyone know if that has changed? I wear a mask when grocery shopping, as is now required here, and don't touch my face until I'm home and remove the mask and wash my hands and face. Disinfecting the entire load of groceries, however, seems like a giant pain so until this is confirmed as an avenue for transmission I'm not going to bother.

From what I can tell, this is not a very highly transmissible virus. The CDC risk matrix says:

"Being in the same indoor environment (e.g., a classroom, a hospital waiting room) as a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 for a prolonged period of time but not meeting the definition of close contact" is associated with "low" risk of transmission.

"Interactions with a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection that do not meet any of the high-, medium- or low-risk conditions above, like walking by a person with confirmed COVID-19 or being briefly in the same room as someone with confirmed COVID-19" is associated with "no identifiable risk" of transmission.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Plina on April 24, 2020, 01:31:57 PM
A while ago I read that there were _zero_ confirmed cases of transmission through food items. Does anyone know if that has changed? I wear a mask when grocery shopping, as is now required here, and don't touch my face until I'm home and remove the mask and wash my hands and face. Disinfecting the entire load of groceries, however, seems like a giant pain so until this is confirmed as an avenue for transmission I'm not going to bother.

From what I can tell, this is not a very highly transmissible virus. The CDC risk matrix says:

"Being in the same indoor environment (e.g., a classroom, a hospital waiting room) as a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 for a prolonged period of time but not meeting the definition of close contact" is associated with "low" risk of transmission.

"Interactions with a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection that do not meet any of the high-, medium- or low-risk conditions above, like walking by a person with confirmed COVID-19 or being briefly in the same room as someone with confirmed COVID-19" is associated with "no identifiable risk" of transmission.

Our health protection authority tells that that there are now confirmed cases that have gotten transmitted. They say the same thing about packages.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 24, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing gloves and smoking while driving.  And also people coming out of grocery stores with gloves on, putting their groceries in their car, then proceeding to smoke with their gloves on. 

One of the owners of the company just came into the lab with gloves on, a bandana face mask, and an energy drink.  He proceeds to pull the mask down and drink his drink while standing directly next to some employees.  I guess the mask and gloves are for show only?

I was in the grocery store a couple of weeks back and an older woman was coughing away into her gloved hands.    She saw me watching and said, "oops, I'm supposed to cough into my elbow".

At the entrance, store staff were screening people to make sure they hadn't been out of the country.

I think these people have confused the purpose of the mask and gloves with a fashion statement!    Were they wearing designer masks?

I don't understand why you would wear gloves.  Basically, assume that your hands are infected as soon as you leave the house.  Don't touch your face, don't eat, don't do anything until you wash your hands thoroughly afterwards.  If you have trouble with this, wear a mask.  It helps you to remember to do all that.  To the best of my understanding, gloves are of limited benefit in preventing transmission.  The virus isn't going to absorb through your hands.
I wear gloves - normal gloves, not latex - when I'm out in flu season, always. Now is not different. I hear a lot of other posters have cars. It's nice for you to have a controlled environment for your transportation, but I do not and am usually out for 3 hours, on and off public transport the whole time. I don't have places to wash my hands, lysol wipes and hand sanitizer have been sold out here since January, and besides it aggravates my eczema.
I'm glad you guys aren't wearing latex gloves and wasting them. But regular gloves are a simple and effective method of reducing exposure that works not just for coronavirus but things like norovirus on which alcohol-based sanitizers have little effect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 24, 2020, 02:12:45 PM
I too was under the impression that viruses on groceries, food take out, and mail present minimal risk and that being in close proximity to infected people is orders of magnitude more risky.  Social distancing is absolutely impossible in crowded areas and most people severely underestimate how far 6 feet actually is.  They treat it more like 6 inches, like if you're not kissing the person it's far enough apparently. 

It's kind of perplexing to me that some people at my work are being super anal about hand sanitizer.  They are making gallons and gallons of the stuff for internal company use.  They put up signs in their area requiring everyone to use hand sanitizer when they come in and out, and have propped open all doors that can be left open.  They will put a squirt of sanitizer on their raw hands, then proceed to stand about 1 foot away from another coworker and talk into each other's faces with no masks on.  If someone is infected enough to be shedding viruses onto door handles...you already fucking have it because you won't stay out of each other's faces.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 24, 2020, 03:07:23 PM
Eggs don’t need to be in the fridge. They are never in the fridge in stores here. Here the best before date for eggs is set for storage in room temperature but they will last longer in the fridge. Although due to my big egg consumption that is not a problem.

Here they do.  They are at more risk of carrying Salmonella and are washed during packaging and lose the protective coating.  I was surprised when I was in New Zealand that eggs were on regular shelves and never refrigerated.  It is dependent on how the hens are housed and the eggs are processed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Missy B on April 24, 2020, 03:27:03 PM
I too was under the impression that viruses on groceries, food take out, and mail present minimal risk and that being in close proximity to infected people is orders of magnitude more risky.  Social distancing is absolutely impossible in crowded areas and most people severely underestimate how far 6 feet actually is.  They treat it more like 6 inches, like if you're not kissing the person it's far enough apparently. 

It's kind of perplexing to me that some people at my work are being super anal about hand sanitizer.  They are making gallons and gallons of the stuff for internal company use.  They put up signs in their area requiring everyone to use hand sanitizer when they come in and out, and have propped open all doors that can be left open.  They will put a squirt of sanitizer on their raw hands, then proceed to stand about 1 foot away from another coworker and talk into each other's faces with no masks on. If someone is infected enough to be shedding viruses onto door handles...you already fucking have it because you won't stay out of each other's faces.
Yah. Crazy making. This week I watched some retired dude (he looked too well-kept to be a binner) poking about in some trash in the the alley with his hands, then reach under his mask to adjust it around the nose. So not only did he just poke around in some garbage (admittedly relatively clean-looking plastic wrap) with his bare hands, he stuck them under his mask immediately. To make sure it was fitted properly.

It's like PEP has become a magical talisman instead of a science-based barrier. "I'm wearing hand-sanitizer, so I can safely breath breathe your COVID-breath!" and "I'm wearing a mask, so I can stick my dirty fingers underneath it! Or wear it under my nose!"
What's especially hard to watch is all these people wasting medical masks that are needed by first responders by using them improperly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 24, 2020, 07:41:20 PM
Eggs don’t need to be in the fridge. They are never in the fridge in stores here. Here the best before date for eggs is set for storage in room temperature but they will last longer in the fridge. Although due to my big egg consumption that is not a problem.

Here they do.  They are at more risk of carrying Salmonella and are washed during packaging and lose the protective coating.  I was surprised when I was in New Zealand that eggs were on regular shelves and never refrigerated.  It is dependent on how the hens are housed and the eggs are processed.

Yeah, we don't wash eggs. That protective coating is very important for the long term health of the egg. We don't even wash them before using them - if you crack them into something you're going to cook what's the point??

Also, I enjoy the teeny weeny feathers you sometimes see sticking to the shell. They're chicken pubes and that makes me laugh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Taran Wanderer on April 24, 2020, 08:18:03 PM
Also, I enjoy the teeny weeny feathers you sometimes see sticking to the shell. They're chicken pubes and that makes me laugh.

forum.mmm.com really needs emojis.  The ROTFL emoji would work just fine for this one!
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 24, 2020, 08:28:08 PM
Eggs don’t need to be in the fridge. They are never in the fridge in stores here. Here the best before date for eggs is set for storage in room temperature but they will last longer in the fridge. Although due to my big egg consumption that is not a problem.

Here they do.  They are at more risk of carrying Salmonella and are washed during packaging and lose the protective coating.  I was surprised when I was in New Zealand that eggs were on regular shelves and never refrigerated.  It is dependent on how the hens are housed and the eggs are processed.

Yeah, we don't wash eggs. That protective coating is very important for the long term health of the egg. We don't even wash them before using them - if you crack them into something you're going to cook what's the point??

Also, I enjoy the teeny weeny feathers you sometimes see sticking to the shell. They're chicken pubes and that makes me laugh.

Glad as I am to be back home, after 3 months in New Zealand this year I really miss it. The people I met. Christmas in warm weather.  The eggs, the ice cream, the pastured meat (yes a lot of good food memories), learning to drive on the left, making it through the mountains with hair-pin curves, the ocean, the . . . . . .
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 24, 2020, 08:35:55 PM
Eggs don’t need to be in the fridge. They are never in the fridge in stores here. Here the best before date for eggs is set for storage in room temperature but they will last longer in the fridge. Although due to my big egg consumption that is not a problem.

Here they do.  They are at more risk of carrying Salmonella and are washed during packaging and lose the protective coating.  I was surprised when I was in New Zealand that eggs were on regular shelves and never refrigerated.  It is dependent on how the hens are housed and the eggs are processed.

Yeah, we don't wash eggs. That protective coating is very important for the long term health of the egg. We don't even wash them before using them - if you crack them into something you're going to cook what's the point??

Also, I enjoy the teeny weeny feathers you sometimes see sticking to the shell. They're chicken pubes and that makes me laugh.

Glad as I am to be back home, after 3 months in New Zealand this year I really miss it. The people I met. Christmas in warm weather.  The eggs, the ice cream, the pastured meat (yes a lot of good food memories), learning to drive on the left, making it through the mountains with hair-pin curves, the ocean, the . . . . . .

Yeah, we don't call it pastured meat. We just call that meat. Animals here live in fields. Except for poor bloody chickens, because battery farming isn't yet illegal, and poor bloody pigs - although I think sow crates are well on the way out. On the plus side, there are plenty of free range producers and they're not expensive. Its cheaper to keep pigs in a field than in a shed.

As for ice cream, we have this little thing about it actually having to contain a certain percentage of cream to be called ice cream. Otherwise you have to call it a frozen dessert.

Did you notice a difference with bread? That's one thing that was very strange to me about the States - you guys can't make bread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: GuitarStv on April 25, 2020, 05:37:24 AM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: deborah on April 25, 2020, 05:41:02 AM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".
What is it labelled as if it isn’t labelled bread?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Weisass on April 25, 2020, 05:57:51 AM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".
What is it labelled as if it isn’t labelled bread?

I think the point here is that there is good bread, hiding amongst the crappy loaves of bread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on April 25, 2020, 06:37:13 AM
I too was under the impression that viruses on groceries, food take out, and mail present minimal risk and that being in close proximity to infected people is orders of magnitude more risky.  Social distancing is absolutely impossible in crowded areas and most people severely underestimate how far 6 feet actually is.  They treat it more like 6 inches, like if you're not kissing the person it's far enough apparently. 
Of note: the super-spreader event clusters - where 1 infected 100 or more others - have occurred when people were 6 inches from one another, and when they shared eating and drinking implements. They have not occurred when people walked 3 feet from one another.

Funerals with hugging and kissing, weddings, religious festivals, sports events, hours of karaoke, and common tables on cruise ships.

Take those out and the rate of spread is still not zero, but it's less than 1 person infecting 1 other, and the disease will fizzle out, or at least drop down to a low burn.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 25, 2020, 06:46:33 AM
Did you notice a difference with bread? That's one thing that was very strange to me about the States - you guys can't make bread.

I'm gluten free and I enjoyed the gluten free bread.  I haven't eaten regular bread in decades. There is some good bread in Canada and especially in Quebec (there is a lot of good food in Quebec, as well as the usual junk).

Saying about the States - you guys can't make bread to me is like me saying about Australia - you guys can't make bread to you - wrong country.  Neighbours, yes, same country, no.    ;-)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Dicey on April 25, 2020, 06:59:00 AM
Did you notice a difference with bread? That's one thing that was very strange to me about the States - you guys can't make bread.

I'm gluten free and I enjoyed the gluten free bread.  I haven't eaten regular bread in decades. There is some good bread in Canada and especially in Quebec (there is a lot of good food in Quebec, as well as the usual junk).

Saying about the States - you guys can't make bread to me is like me saying about Australia - you guys can't make bread to you - wrong country.  Neighbours, yes, same country, no.    ;-)
Someone obviously did not get to try Dave's Killer Bread...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 25, 2020, 07:15:28 AM
Did you notice a difference with bread? That's one thing that was very strange to me about the States - you guys can't make bread.

I'm gluten free and I enjoyed the gluten free bread.  I haven't eaten regular bread in decades. There is some good bread in Canada and especially in Quebec (there is a lot of good food in Quebec, as well as the usual junk).

Saying about the States - you guys can't make bread to me is like me saying about Australia - you guys can't make bread to you - wrong country.  Neighbours, yes, same country, no.    ;-)

Oops, sorry, didn't look at your location.... Many apologies. I would hate to be thought of as Australian (joke)
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 25, 2020, 08:21:10 AM
Did you notice a difference with bread? That's one thing that was very strange to me about the States - you guys can't make bread.

I'm gluten free and I enjoyed the gluten free bread.  I haven't eaten regular bread in decades. There is some good bread in Canada and especially in Quebec (there is a lot of good food in Quebec, as well as the usual junk).

Saying about the States - you guys can't make bread to me is like me saying about Australia - you guys can't make bread to you - wrong country.  Neighbours, yes, same country, no.    ;-)

Oops, sorry, didn't look at your location.... Many apologies. I would hate to be thought of as Australian (joke)

You live in earthquake country instead.  ;-)  With A2 milk, I really miss my A2 milk.

I know, we are way into foam territory, but it is more fun thinking about all the yummy NZ food than thinking about Covid-19.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: BigMoneyJim on April 25, 2020, 09:19:10 AM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".
What is it labelled as if it isn’t labelled bread?

Wonder.

As in, "I Wonder why people would use this air-puffed chalky white mush in place of bread?"
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: OtherJen on April 25, 2020, 09:56:32 AM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".

This. Smaller bakeries and home bakers in the USA certainly make good bread. The mass market dreck sold as bread in supermarkets is really bread in name and appearance only. Plus, after 10 years gluten-free, supermarket bread absolutely stinks. I hate the smell of the bread aisle and can only presume it’s from all the preservatives and dough conditioners.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: TomTX on April 25, 2020, 11:49:05 AM
In Minneapolis they’ve taken the hoops down at the basketball courts, precisely because people were ignoring stay at home orders and shooting hoops down at the park like idiots.

Around here they just put some large zip-ties around the hoop and through the net, along with some caution tape and a sign that the courts are closed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Wolfpack Mustachian on April 25, 2020, 02:59:50 PM
If it makes everyone feel better,  it's not just covid.  I saw a person using a glove when pumping gas who even threw it away after use before getting into his vehicle.  However, he was smoking while pumping the gas.... just reminded me people act like morons in all things...
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: Gin1984 on April 25, 2020, 03:17:00 PM
A while ago I read that there were _zero_ confirmed cases of transmission through food items. Does anyone know if that has changed? I wear a mask when grocery shopping, as is now required here, and don't touch my face until I'm home and remove the mask and wash my hands and face. Disinfecting the entire load of groceries, however, seems like a giant pain so until this is confirmed as an avenue for transmission I'm not going to bother.

From what I can tell, this is not a very highly transmissible virus. The CDC risk matrix says:

"Being in the same indoor environment (e.g., a classroom, a hospital waiting room) as a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 for a prolonged period of time but not meeting the definition of close contact" is associated with "low" risk of transmission.

"Interactions with a person with symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection that do not meet any of the high-, medium- or low-risk conditions above, like walking by a person with confirmed COVID-19 or being briefly in the same room as someone with confirmed COVID-19" is associated with "no identifiable risk" of transmission.

Our health protection authority tells that that there are now confirmed cases that have gotten transmitted. They say the same thing about packages.
Can you share a link?
Title: Re: Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 25, 2020, 08:15:58 PM
There's lots of good bread in North America.  It's just that most stuff sold as bread is that terrible factory produced plastic bagged stuff.  Which really should be labelled "bread".

This. Smaller bakeries and home bakers in the USA certainly make good bread. The mass market dreck sold as bread in supermarkets is really bread in name and appearance only. Plus, after 10 years gluten-free, supermarket bread absolutely stinks. I hate the smell of the bread aisle and can only presume it’s from all the preservatives and dough conditioners.

Yes, the artisan bakeries are A-MAZE-BALLS. The stuff in the supermarkets is really odd. I mean, our supermarket bread is not great, don't get me wrong, but it's recognisably bread. USA cheap bread is like slices of furniture foam. And it's sweet. Really bizarre product.