Coronavirus - How can people be so incredibly stupid?

[FIRE Artist]

If someone knowingly goes out and infects somebody else, could it be considered assault?

There is precedent for STI cases who knew they were infected but chose to have unprotected sex without disclosing their STI status to their partner being charged with assault, so I assume it could be.  But, there likely would have to be an actual diagnosis, not just a contact advised to self quarantine. 

[MyAlterEgoIsTaller]

If someone knowingly goes out and infects somebody else, could it be considered assault?

The NH and VT news had a bunch of articles about that last week, after the Unbelievably Stupid Doctor Incident. 
The legal experts said: it depends, both on the state, and on what exactly the person knew.  In this particular case, the person was only advised by medical personnel to self-quarantine - so there was no official order for him (although now of course there is).  Also he was only presumed positive at that point, based on symptoms and travel history - the test result hadn't come back yet. 

And even if he had been officially positive and there had been an official quarantine order, he could only be charged with a misdemeanor in NH, and not with anything like assault.  In some other states there could be felony charges, if there had been a positive test result and an official quarantine notice.

[SimpleCycle]

I have been hanging out at home with community-acquired pneumonia for almost two weeks.  I have left the house three times - twice to go to the doctor and once to go to the grocery store after I had already finished all my antibiotics.  At some point I am going to have to leave the house, but I still have a nasty cough and have been told to expect to have it for another 2-4 weeks.  I am not sure what to do, other than cover my cough and let people look at me like I'm a murderer.

I emailed my mother and my in-laws with what the recommendations are for older adults.  As someone with three family members over 70, the "it doesn't affect healthy prime age adults much" argument falls pretty flat.

[PDXTabs]

Also a problem with incentives--if someone thinks they might have it they have nothing personally to gain--unless they are seriously personally ill--and a very likely very expensive quarantine paid for by them to lose if they come forward. Few people will be altruistic in such a situation; look at the rush for the gates in Italy.

Not to mention this is the USA. You have to pay out of pocket to get tested and then again to stay home from work. This is not true in all countries.

If society would like individuals to get tested and stay home, perhaps society should incentivize that behavior.

[G-String]

Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.

I refuse to get the flu shot because I d not trust the government, and have had the flu a few times.  It is unpleasant but I always recover. 

[happyuk]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.

You are simplifying things somewhat.  Europe actually has no meaningful borders, which is why it now has a true epidemic, and is why it has spread so fast.

Many who've not lived or travelled in Europe may not understand that borders can NOT be closed. It's just impossible. You can cross freely from any country into another in hundreds of ways, without ever stopping, just like US state borders.  Quarantining a small town or city is probably much easier. But restricting travel between countries, no chance.

[happyuk]

Some further thoughts.

The outbreaks in Iran and Italy do suggest the possibility of a more aggressive, virulent strain. Chris Martenson, a PhD toxicologist, is calling for this to be gene-sequenced soonest, though I'd be confident this is already being done. Martenson's daily updates are in my opinion, the best on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD2-QVBQi48RRQTD4Jhxu8w

If it is mutating, this will be like trying to hit a moving target from a vaccine-creation point of view. No standard vaccines may be possible.

I'm concerned about the reliability of testing. There's plenty of circumstantial, statistical evidence (and a number of well-recorded cases) to suggest that there are MANY false negatives. (I strongly suspect the patient in Ecuador a month ago, who came from China and soon after died of multiple organ failure, and who the CDC said did not have the virus, was a false negative.)

It's bewildering that many authorities in different countries do NOT seem to be aware of all the formally reported articles in medical literature about incubation periods and asymptomatic transmissiveness. Despite good intentions or strong words (often for PR purposes), containment attempts outside of China are often weak, half-hearted, indecisive, uncoordinated, and/or incompetent. And evidently ineffective. The response in the US should be embarrassing to the White House (and may yet prove to be).

Checks at airports or checkpoints using 'temperature guns' are of almost no use or value at all. That worked with SARS, but not with this thing.

It's not contained in China — not at all.  I do not think it is even containable. The virus is now in Africa (Egypt, Algeria, Nigeria) and Latin America (Brazil, Mexico). It can't be contained in either continent. It's just impossible, too. (And there's no 5G there. 5G symptoms, which I'm sure are 100% real and potentially serious, can't themselves be transmitted from person to person.)

The stock markets will continue to fall out the sky. Where that domino chain will go, heaven knows. Supply chains of just about everything not locally grown or made will be affected, or in some cases just come to a halt.

I'll say this once, if I may! Everyone reading this will be fine.   Simply because you as Mustachians all know how to take good care of yourselves and your families. The knock-on effects we may experience are likely to be social and economic, but it has to be possible they may be something many haven't seen in our lifetime.

[Villanelle]

Yes, people are stupid, but we also have parents not vaccinating their children and potentially putting infants and people who can't get vaccinated at risk also.  You can't fix stupid and as far as I know, it is not a crime.  Life is a gamble anyway. 

If you are elderly or immunocompromised, you probably want to try to self quarantine as much as possible.  If you are younger and in good health, you will probably be fine.

                                                   Miss Prim

I think when there is a Corona vax, people who weren't fully vaxxed prior to Jan 2020, without medical conditions preventing it, should be absolute fucking last in line for the Corona vaccine.  Let them live (and die) their asinine beliefs. 

I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards. 

[PDXTabs]

I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards.

So I should be able to shoot them on sight, and if they live 10 years in prison?

That seems very expensive for society, keeping in mind that DUII is not a felony in most circumstances.

[laserlady]

ll say this once, if I may! Everyone reading this will be fine.   Simply because you as Mustachians all know how to take good care of yourselves and your families. The knock-on effects we may experience are likely to be social and economic, but it has to be possible they may be something many haven't seen in our lifetime.

I assume you mean to say that we'll all be fine economically.  Even that seems a little dubious to me, but, in absolute terms, I really don't think you can say that everyone reading this will be fine.  I have asthma and always get lung problems with any kind of respiratory illness, so I'm at high risk in this epidemic.  I have an employer and parents who are at even higher risk.  The odds are good that, as this epidemic continues to spread, people now reading this forum will lose family members or other loved ones, if not their own lives.  Selfish decisions made by people like the quarantine-breakers discussed above put all of us at risk, even if we take whatever steps we can to try to mitigate those risks.

I totally agree with several of the other points made in your post, especially about the bewilderingly poor containment efforts being made by countries outside of China.  People will cite to the fact that numbers are going down in China as if this proves that COVID-19 is no longer a threat, without recognizing that those numbers have only gone down due to the stringent measures China put into place more than a month ago.

[Villanelle]

I also think that it should be a crime--a felony--to violate a quarantine.  I don't even know if such a thing would be legal in the US, but in my perfect Utopia, it would be.  Make it akin to felony assault.  And if infections can reasonably be traced back to that person (which I know would be challenging), then crush the selfish ass with civil suits and damage awards.

So I should be able to shoot them on sight, and if they live 10 years in prison?

That seems very expensive for society, keeping in mind that DUII is not a felony in most circumstances.
[/quote]

??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

And yes, I think the penalties should be severe.   One of the prime compenents of our judicial and penal system is deterring bad behavior.  If people realize it is a serious thing, they are more likely to take it seriously.  And absent that, they are still more likely to obey the order, even if they think it's stupid, if they know they face serious consequences. 

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.  (The problem with only making quarantine violation a felony if somsone gets seriously ill or dies is that tying an illness to a specific person is difficult at best, or potentially impossible if this gets a foothold.  Did you catch this from the guy who broke quarantine and stood in line in front of you in the coffee shop?  Maybe.  But maybe you got it from someone else, not yet diagnosed, who shopped at your grocery store or used that door know just before you.)

[Bloop Bloop]

Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.

[PDXTabs]

??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

You said treat it like a violent felony. In every state that I have lived in I've had the legal right to shoot people who were committing violent felonies.

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.

It is, but only if you are a repeat offender or someone gets seriously hurt and you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt it in a court of law.

[BigMoneyJim]

Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?

[afox]

Try to put yourself in someone's shoes that has a job with no sick or little sick leave and is un-insured or under-insured  and gets flu-like symptoms, not extreme enough for them to feel like they cant work, travel, etc.

Option A: get expensive medical treatment that you cant afford and stay home from work and use up all of your sick leave and/or dont get paid which you cant afford.

Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

[PDXTabs]

Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

Not to mention that there are even odds that your boss is screaming at you to come to work.

[dummy]

Lol.

The sky is falling.

You’ll be fine. Relax and calm down.

[Sibley]

Realistically, this virus is going to become endemic. Because yes, people are stupid. And the virus is exactly the type of thing that is hard to contain - mild/no symptoms in many people. In a few years, we'll have a vaccine and it'll be like the flu vaccine where everyone is encouraged to get it and many people don't bother. In the meantime, there's a good chance that the people who are most vulnerable (elderly, sick, etc) are going to be hit hard.

We can also talk about the stupidity of all the people who are buying out Costco toilet paper and everything else. My sister went to the grocery store today in the DC area. She said that she's never seen a store that well stocked. When the panic dies down, there are going to be a lot of people looking at a 5 year supply of toilet paper or whatever, wondering what the heck they were thinking. Hopefully a lot of that excess will be donated to food pantries and similar where it can do some good.

I refuse to get the flu shot because I d not trust the government, and have had the flu a few times.  It is unpleasant but I always recover.

Found one!

[Villanelle]

??? I said nothing about shooting them on sight.  Someone else did, but not me.  So... no? 

You said treat it like a violent felony. In every state that I have lived in I've had the legal right to shoot people who were committing violent felonies.

I also think that a DUI where someone is seriously hurt or injured should be a felony.

It is, but only if you are a repeat offender or someone gets seriously hurt and you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt it in a court of law.

You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?  Huh.  To my knowledge, that hasn't been legal in any states where I've lived, but maybe I'm just not familiar with those laws.  For that matter, I thought that typically you are only allowed to shoot someone if they are on your property and an immediate threat to your life.  I don't think this arises to "immediate threat to life".  Then of course there is the fact that you would have to know they were told to quarantine and have ignored that. 

So maybe not the same. 

[PDXTabs]

You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?

I never said that. You said that breaking quarantine should be equivalent to felony assault:

Make it akin to felony assault.

I think the idea is preposterous. I'm just trying to demonstrate just how preposterous. For reference, here is the Oregon use of deadly force law:

ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1)Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2)Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3)Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person - source

You said that they should be equivalent, not me.

EDITed to add - BTW, felony assaults would include things like knifes and bats. You think that breaking quarantine is equivalent to me hitting you in the head with a bat or stabbing you.

[Paul der Krake]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders. Because "it's an overreaction." 

If the U.S. was smart, we'd have learned from that trainwreck and restricted travel to the point reasonably possible from the entire PNW a week ago.

I get that wouldn't magically fix the problem, but it buys time. Maybe enough for a vaccine, maybe warmer temps slow it a bit. Maybe not, but it's something.

You are simplifying things somewhat.  Europe actually has no meaningful borders, which is why it now has a true epidemic, and is why it has spread so fast.

Many who've not lived or travelled in Europe may not understand that borders can NOT be closed. It's just impossible. You can cross freely from any country into another in hundreds of ways, without ever stopping, just like US state borders.  Quarantining a small town or city is probably much easier. But restricting travel between countries, no chance.

That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.

[PDXTabs]

That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.

[Villanelle]

You are allowed to shoot at someone driving by in a vehicle if they are drunk?

I never said that. You said that breaking quarantine should be equivalent to felony assault:

Make it akin to felony assault.

 
I think the idea is preposterous. I'm just trying to demonstrate just how preposterous. For reference, here is the Oregon use of deadly force law:

ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1)Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2)Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3)Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person - source

You said that they should be equivalent, not me.

EDITed to add - BTW, felony assaults would include things like knifes and bats. You think that breaking quarantine is equivalent to me hitting you in the head with a bat or stabbing you.

Akin=similar, not exactly the same.

[OtherJen]

Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.

[Monerexia]

Try to put yourself in someone's shoes that has a job with no sick or little sick leave and is un-insured or under-insured  and gets flu-like symptoms, not extreme enough for them to feel like they cant work, travel, etc.

Option A: get expensive medical treatment that you cant afford and stay home from work and use up all of your sick leave and/or dont get paid which you cant afford.

Option B: Do a good deed and go broke to keep your co-workers/employer who care so much about you (sarcasm intended) from getting sick.

Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.

[afox]

Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.

not just restaurants, many professional employees get 3 days of sick leave per year that they could otherwise use on vacations.

[Wrenchturner]

Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.

Because of game theory.  Individuals' choices with regard to this disease are interconnected with other people.  A drunk driver is a single event with a single risk associated with it.  Obviously a chronic drunk driver is a serious issue but it's still a linear event.

Britannica, on game theory:

Game theory, branch of applied mathematics that provides tools for analyzing situations in which parties, called players, make decisions that are interdependent. This interdependence causes each player to consider the other player’s possible decisions, or strategies, in formulating his own strategy.  A solution to a game describes the optimal decisions of the players, who may have similar, opposed, or mixed interests, and the outcomes that may result from these decisions.

[Monerexia]

Yep this exactly. This is one of the reasons I stopped going to restaurants--they can will and do go to work communicable--there is literally no incentive to not do so.

not just restaurants, many professional employees get 3 days of sick leave per year that they could otherwise use on vacations.

Yes but restaurant employees differ in two important ways from professional environments: 1. The pay is lower so it is more difficult in the aggregate for them to miss work. 2. They have their faces directly over and their hands directly on something I am going to ingest.

[SwordGuy]

Endangerment seems like a reasonable charge for willful disregard of a mandatory quarantine.

I'm the person who earlier said that people who are violating a home quarantine for a deadly disease for no good reason should be summarily executed, on video, with their execution published for all to see.

One drunk driver might kill a few people, but they can't cause an entire country to lose 20% of its population.   A quarantine violator with the wrong disease might just end up being responsible for setting the chain of events in motion that causes exactly that result.

Think what would happen if people got a disease as deadly as ebola with the transmission ease and asymptomatic infections time period of corvid-19?   And with a new disease we don't really know the variables involved.   So violating a home quarantine can be deadly serious.   Someone violating a quarantine because they are bored or don't want to cook is so damn selfish compared to the potential consequences they just need to be done away with as an example to others.

But that's just me.   I'm all with helping people overcome their mistakes and giving them another chance -- until they willfully endanger millions of people.   

Broadcast summarily executing people who violate home quarantine for no good reason a few dozen times and most folks will catch on that we as a society just won't tolerate it.    The rest, if they can't take a clue and get caught, won't be a problem for folks anymore.

And, obviously, we can't tell people to go into their homes and starve and expect them to do that.  We've got to make sure that there is some mechanism in place so they can get food, medicine, and other essentials.

[Paul der Krake]

Ah yes, summary executions, the legal framework definitely supports that.

Pipe down Mao.

[Bloop Bloop]

Why should we severely penalise people just trying to go about their daily lives when we don't throw high-level drink drivers, or bankrupts, into jail? The culpability and level of departure from reasonable care are higher in each of those cases and yet they get off with a mild penalty.

Humans are fallible - accept it and move on. If this thing becomes endemic just add it to the list and move on.

Because of game theory.  Individuals' choices with regard to this disease are interconnected with other people.  A drunk driver is a single event with a single risk associated with it.  Obviously a chronic drunk driver is a serious issue but it's still a linear event.

Britannica, on game theory:

Game theory, branch of applied mathematics that provides tools for analyzing situations in which parties, called players, make decisions that are interdependent. This interdependence causes each player to consider the other player’s possible decisions, or strategies, in formulating his own strategy.  A solution to a game describes the optimal decisions of the players, who may have similar, opposed, or mixed interests, and the outcomes that may result from these decisions.

Our legal framework doesn't operate on game theory. Otherwise we'd be paying poor people to abort their kids and incentivising rich/smart parents to have more children. Our criminal punishment system is based on culpability, not on coercing people (through fear and terror) into certain decisions that might be better for society but which cast a disproportionate toll on the "offender".

As I said, humans are fallible. We can't even get people to stop having unsafe sex, a practice that both pragmatically and conceptually is much easier than staying home at 2 weeks not getting paid. We can't even get people to get themselves vaccinated. 15% of the population continues to smoke. You're not going to stop that from happening so just accept it and move on.

[happyuk]

That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.

Exactly. You've mentioned the tip of what is an extremely huge iceberg.  There are literally thousands of examples like this where walking just a few feet puts you in another country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html

 And what about travelling on trains?  They may check your passport, but to all intents and purposes the closing of borders in Europe is virtually unenforceable.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

People won't act to protect others on a daily basis if that impacts them even slightly. I mean seriously?? I read that the reason asian people routinely wear masks is to protect others, not themselves. Like f&^%! I think most people are good people, and most people would go out of their way to help if the opportunity arose, for example running to help in a car accident. That does not include going hungry themselves, or cold themselves, or self isolating or any other even minor impact to themselves! It's just not human nature.

[Paul der Krake]

That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years...

They've tried. I read happyuk's post more in practical terms than legal terms. Like, if you are walking in Peneda-Gerês National Park and suddenly you are in Spain, is anyone going to notice? Because they haven't invested in the infrastructure to catch you for decades.

Exactly. You've mentioned the tip of what is an extremely huge iceberg.  There are literally thousands of examples like this where walking just a few feet puts you in another country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3729031/Bed-border-hotel-sleep-two-countries-time.html

 And what about travelling on trains?  They may check your passport, but to all intents and purposes the closing of borders in Europe is virtually unenforceable.

Nobody is talking about stopping all border crossings ever. You just need to stop /most/ people. And that is very enforceable.

[Wrenchturner]

People won't act to protect others on a daily basis if that impacts them even slightly. I mean seriously?? I read that the reason asian people routinely wear masks is to protect others, not themselves. Like f&^%! I think most people are good people, and most people would go out of their way to help if the opportunity arose, for example running to help in a car accident. That does not include going hungry themselves, or cold themselves, or self isolating or any other even minor impact to themselves! It's just not human nature.

There are cultural differences involved too. Asian cultures generally have more regard for their role within groups.  But I suspect if enough people started wearing masks on north American public transit, we would see more group enforcement of wearing masks.

[Morning Glory]

Who leaked all this information to the press. Isn't it a big HIPAA violation? I could lose my job and possibly my license if I told anyone that a patient had Corona virus.

[Adam Zapple]

I think what makes this so difficult is that people are sick with all kinds of stuff right now.  In all likelihood, someone who is sick has something other than coronavirus (without doing actual math, maybe 99.99% chance if not in a known hot spot?) They know this and their doctors know this and the doctors likely tell them so.  Perhaps they half-heartedly suggest self-quarantine.  Media reports are not reliable and you have no idea what some of these patients knew or did not. 

One group of people, on the other hand, who I absolutely think deserve to die from coronavirus are those who would GET ON A CRUISE SHIP RIGHT NOW!!!???  Seriously, when there's an outbreak on one of these things they should find a deep spot and drill some large holes in the bottom of the ship.  They'd be doing society a favor. 

[MyAlterEgoIsTaller]

Who leaked all this information to the press. Isn't it a big HIPAA violation? I could lose my job and possibly my license if I told anyone that a patient had Corona virus.

Most of it has originally come from states' health departments.  They don't have the same reporting restrictions as health care professionals - they have authority to inform others when they determine it's in the collective best interest.  The health departments have held press conferences, and provided additional information to other parties, such as the schools that these people attend, their employers, other train passengers in the case of the Missouri woman, other party-goers in the NH/VT incident, and so on, and not all of those individuals are bound by any confidentiality requirements.
From there, even if a name isn't provided, it can be pretty easy for others in those peoples' communities to put the pieces together to identify them.

In the NH incident, the NH health department was pretty tight-lipped, and because the patient worked for a hospital of course the employer was too, but the VT health department released a little more info, and then from that people in that person's university community were able to identify him, and then a student's blog post about the incident gave the press a little more info from which to figure it out.  Information spreads even better than viruses.

[Arrian]

Well, I don't know about shooting someone on sight, but I'd feel a lot better if we had enough testing to differentiate between "a novel Coronavirus" infection and the usual coughs and sniffles this time of year. Can we get the testing done first before figuring out if shooting people might help?

I agree with this. Haven't traveled internationally, come into known contact with anyone, and didn't have a fever over 100.4

... but I did use public transit in NYC last week
... and had a fever of 100.3 Mon morning
... went to bed Sunday night with a very sore throat, have had night sweats two nights in a row - and now my SO is experiencing a dry cough, chest tightness.

Not having cheap/ readily available testing is really killer. We probably just have a regular flu/ cold schmutz going around, but I'd sure like to rule out or be treated for COVID-19 before bronchitis sets in for my SO.

[dogboyslim]

Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but

Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

[MaaS]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.

What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

[DadJokes]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.

What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

I tried to count the roads that cross the Texas/New Mexico border. I made it to 45, zoomed out, and saw that I hadn't even made it a third of the way down the border. I only covered county roads and one small town. It would take a heck of a lot of government workers to cover every road.

[afox]

Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but

Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Coronavirus mortality rates vary by age and are as high as 18% or more for older individuals. The best data so far is in the WHO report:

summarized here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/fbt49e/the_who_sent_25_international_experts_to_china/

This is the full report:
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf

[Imma]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.

What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

I think in my (and @UncleX 's) part of Europe closing off train/air/main roads would be fairly easy. That would be maybe 50% of cross border traffic, the international travellers. The other half would be semi-local traffic and many of those people who live in cross border communities aren't going to let the government stop them from living their lives. If you'd have to physically close off the local roads too you'd have to literally call in the army. We've had open borders for so long that our border patrol just doesn't have the capacity.

It would also cause problems immediately because many of people work on one side and live on the other side. My GP and at least half of their staff live on the other side.

[honeybbq]

Wow.

OK here is my situation. My daughter came down with a cold this Friday. Sniffles, cough, etc. She is doing better today, never had a fever so I sent her to school today.  She doesn't have any known contacts/vectors for this disease. In my state there is 1 known case, from someone coming back from Italy.

I have seasonal allergies. Even if when I take my Allegra, the month of March (also end of Feb, beginning of April) I KNOW my nose will drip, I will sneeze, my eyes and throat will be dry and itchy. 
I'm assuming I'm still OK going to work, etc as long as I don't otherwise feel ill? Or will people hate on me because I'm sneezing? I am washing my hands frequently (because I don't want to get sick from others) cover my sneezes, etc.

As a fellow allergy sufferer- yes people will look at you but runny nose and sneezing are NOT indications for this virus. I'd just say "seasonal allergies" after I sneeze into my tissue.

[bigblock440]

Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but

Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:

In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever. 

[UncleX]

Europe STILL hasn't closed borders.

What borders? From my home I can drive through 5 countries within 3 hours. There are no barriers or anything, you hardly even notice crossing a border. Borders are lines on maps in Europe. That's it.

Can you drive from state to state?

The key there is "drive." Restrict who can enter the country on roads, at train stations, and airports. If somebody really wants to hike across a field, that's fine, but limiting a majority of country to country travel wouldn't be that difficult.

And yes, it could be done at a state level.

I get the feeling you have never been to my part of Europe. You certainly have no idea about our infrastructrure and about how we live our lives here, even if you may think you do.

This thread is amazing.

[Sibley]

Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but

Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:

In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever.

You're missing the point.

Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

Polio is not a good comparison to this virus, or the flu. There simply isn't the same emotional landmine that polio had. As sad is may be if your elderly relatives pass away, the fact remains that they are not children. The death of a child is always regretted more, seen as more of a loss, more of a tragedy. BECAUSE children still have their whole lives ahead of them, society places more weight on their deaths. For the elderly, society has collectively looked at them and said "you've lived your life, and it's sad, but everyone dies sometime". The younger someone is who dies, the more of a loss their death is counted as by society.

That doesn't mean that an individual's death isn't a devastating loss to you personally. I'm talking about society as a whole. And society as a whole is far more panic stricken when it's children at primary risk.

[PDXTabs]

That's not entirely true. Borders can and have been temporarily enforced in recent years:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

Borders were fully closed in the immediate hours following the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Then it was relaxed to enhanced checkpoints, but for a couple of hours nobody could get in or out.

It's highly unlikely that member states will want to do such a thing, but the option is there. Emergency powers are very broad.

I wanted to revisit this. A bunch of people work in one country and live in another, I believe that the colloquial term for them is "frontier workers." What you are proposing would be equivalent to closing the state borders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it politically or even economically practical? I'm not sure, what happens when power station workers can't get to work? Hospital workers? Checkpoints maybe, but closed?

[bigblock440]

Yeah I don't think so. This virus has caused a minuscule number of deaths outside China. The death rate for healthy people under 40 is 0.2%. It does not worry me in the slightest.

Just to put it in perspective here, that's worse than polio, but tell people you're not worried about polio and didn't get the shot and all hell breaks loose.

Not sure if this was already covered, but this statement isn't true:

Granted this is wikepedia, but

Overall, 5 to 10 percent of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The case fatality rate (CFR) varies by age: 2 to 5 percent of children and up to 15 to 30 percent of adults die.

Last I saw, Cronavirus was 2%.  So still significantly more serious then seasonal flu, but not on the same par as polio.

Bolded the relevant part.  With paralytic polio.  You seem to have glossed over this part:

In about 0.5 percent of cases, there is muscle weakness resulting in an inability to move

So 5-10% of 0.5% of people that contract it.  So 99.9975% of people who contract polio survive, 99.5% of people who contract polio do not suffer any type of paralysis from the virus whatsoever.

You're missing the point.

Right or wrong - polio dis-proportionally hit children, and paralyzed them. Sure, maybe it was only 1 in 10,000 or whatever (I just made up that number), but there were still entire wards of children who were confined to giant machines that would make them breathe. It was the iron lung or suffocate to death. This was literally a parent's nightmare, and statistics didn't help much (yes, I know that many children weren't that badly afflicted. It doesn't matter, everyone's mind jumped to the iron lung scenario.)

Polio is not a good comparison to this virus, or the flu. There simply isn't the same emotional landmine that polio had. As sad is may be if your elderly relatives pass away, the fact remains that they are not children. The death of a child is always regretted more, seen as more of a loss, more of a tragedy. BECAUSE children still have their whole lives ahead of them, society places more weight on their deaths. For the elderly, society has collectively looked at them and said "you've lived your life, and it's sad, but everyone dies sometime". The younger someone is who dies, the more of a loss their death is counted as by society.

That doesn't mean that an individual's death isn't a devastating loss to you personally. I'm talking about society as a whole. And society as a whole is far more panic stricken when it's children at primary risk.

I'm just putting the "oh the death rate is only 2%" into context.  Most people don't understand statistics and are trying to argue that a 2% (or whatever number they're picking) isn't anything to be concerned about, but those same people would shit bricks if you said you weren't vaccinated against polio, or pertussis (0.5% or less), or chicken pox or didn't get your flu shot.  On that same note, what's the deal with chickenpox?  It's mild in kids (which is why you're saying nobody should care about corona), and corona has killed more people than chickenpox has this year.