Author Topic: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors  (Read 50630 times)

nereo

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #200 on: November 21, 2017, 10:03:55 AM »
One of the neighbors is building a new home that's 24,000 sq ft.  ...
Is that a typo??!!


No typo.  The foundation crew spent all summer with a pile driver, pounding over 300 poles in the ground to support the huge building.  I can't imagine how much was spent before they even began to pour the concrete. 

There's a Nascar driver across the cove that just completed a 35,000 sq ft home! 

I just put in laminate floors & a new roof on my double-wide last year, but nobody seemed to notice.  LOL
what?  I mean.... what?  ... what???
I've been inside what I considered truly monumental homes around the 7,000 sqft mark.  Three stories, half a dozen bedrooms each with en suite bath, enough large rooms downstairs for me to struggle naming them all.  Now you're telling me these houses are 4 to 6 TIMES larger than those?  WTF?!

Slee_stack

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #201 on: November 21, 2017, 10:31:37 AM »
Personal Indoor Race track??

Hah 24,000 s.f.!  Very curious as to how a modern family might fill that.  How much time would anyone spend in any room of it?

I guess if someone is planning a castle and full servant staff...

AlanStache

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #202 on: November 21, 2017, 10:45:26 AM »
Five basketball courts?

>> In the National Basketball Association (NBA), the court is 94 by 50 feet ->  4700 sq ft.

BTDretire

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #203 on: November 21, 2017, 10:49:31 AM »
 I'm sure I'm considered rich by most people, but I'm not really living any different than I did 35 years ago when our income was $20k.
 We have 40X to 50X our spending rate, but still drive 12 and 20 year old vehicles, rarely eat out, live in a 3br, 2bath,
$160k house. I'm sure the neighbors think we have just as much financial stress as they do, but we don't.
That all said, I don't feel rich, on the other hand, I don't know what want that I would spend more money on!
 So, I would define Rich, as what the other guy says about you. They may or may not be right.

nereo

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #204 on: November 21, 2017, 12:52:29 PM »
Five basketball courts?

>> In the National Basketball Association (NBA), the court is 94 by 50 feet ->  4700 sq ft.
Holy Cow.
So I just spitballed some numbers. I grew up in what I'd consider a too-large 4 bedroom house of 3,000sqft with my parents and two siblings. We had the large kitchen, formal dining room, living room, family room, foyer and den. By my estimates, we could double the size of each bedroom, add en suite baths to each, have an indoor basketball court and olympic-sized swimming pool (50m x 25m, or 15,000sqft with some deckspace) and you *still* don't come out to 24,000 sqft

AlanStache

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #205 on: November 21, 2017, 01:17:18 PM »
Five basketball courts?

>> In the National Basketball Association (NBA), the court is 94 by 50 feet ->  4700 sq ft.
Holy Cow.
So I just spitballed some numbers. I grew up in what I'd consider a too-large 4 bedroom house of 3,000sqft with my parents and two siblings. We had the large kitchen, formal dining room, living room, family room, foyer and den. By my estimates, we could double the size of each bedroom, add en suite baths to each, have an indoor basketball court and olympic-sized swimming pool (50m x 25m, or 15,000sqft with some deckspace) and you *still* don't come out to 24,000 sqft

If they were a "car guy" they could be counting one or two basketball courts worth of space in the garage/aircraft  hangar/boat dock/spaceport. (half joking but this might be it...)

frugalnacho

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #206 on: November 21, 2017, 01:34:39 PM »
Five basketball courts?

>> In the National Basketball Association (NBA), the court is 94 by 50 feet ->  4700 sq ft.
Holy Cow.
So I just spitballed some numbers. I grew up in what I'd consider a too-large 4 bedroom house of 3,000sqft with my parents and two siblings. We had the large kitchen, formal dining room, living room, family room, foyer and den. By my estimates, we could double the size of each bedroom, add en suite baths to each, have an indoor basketball court and olympic-sized swimming pool (50m x 25m, or 15,000sqft with some deckspace) and you *still* don't come out to 24,000 sqft

If they were a "car guy" they could be counting one or two basketball courts worth of space in the garage/aircraft  hangar/boat dock/spaceport. (half joking but this might be it...)

Even with 2 full sized basketball courts of space for their cars and such that still leaves enough sq footage to fit 12 of my houses in.  And that's for the smaller house that's 24k sq ft.  I don't even know what you'd need 30k+ of sq ft for unless you were going to operate a costco out of your house or something.

Just Joe

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #207 on: November 21, 2017, 02:50:19 PM »
I'd LOVE to have a roller rink or basketball court for garage space... Move the cars outside when the kids want to play, never run out of space to refinish that antique table, no worries about the kids getting too wild - just send them into the family warehouse! 

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #208 on: November 21, 2017, 02:53:40 PM »
I heard a term here called a HENRY.  That's what I am:  High Earner, Not Rich Yet. 

My income puts me in the top 3% of wage earners in the US.  I'm not rich yet because: 1) I've been a high earner for only 5 of 28 working years. 2) making up for lost time when I wasn't a great saver. 

There are other factors that keep me from feeling rich, but those have to do with my spending habits.  Right now, I just want to feel secure in knowing that I could lose a job and not have to worry about becoming homeless.  This secure feeling is getting stronger and stronger each day. 

nereo

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #209 on: November 21, 2017, 03:33:44 PM »
The way I see it, you can be rich one year and poor the next, particularly if you are a knucklehead about finances.  There seems to be no level of richness that stupidity and bad fortune can't take away.  In Spartana's example, all three were rich but only the guy who lives on much less than he has stays that way.

GreenEggs

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #210 on: November 21, 2017, 03:50:26 PM »
The 35K sf Nascar driver's house does have a huge gym/warehouse section under about 1/2 of the house.  I'd guess it's for cars.  The site is perched on a relatively steep lot (actually 2 lots, over 2 acres) that over looks the main channel of a large lake, and faces West for the spectacular sunsets.  There's a huge infinity pool in front.

I guess these mega houses might be a smart investment if you can afford one, since finding side-by-side build-able waterfront lots is more rare each year. 

The .01% will eventually own all the waterfront.  Trump's doing his part.  ;)

Cranky

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #211 on: November 21, 2017, 04:15:59 PM »
Rich is being Financially Independent.   We formerly had a combined household income on just under 500K, 350K after tax, and now we are RE and live lavishly on 1/4 of that amount.  Spending my time doing what I want to makes me rich.  Rich isn't about money.  Rich is about living life without worrying about the money.
By most people's standards a FIRE income that is 1/4 of $350k would be a very high income/rich/wealthy.

I wonder if most here would consider a FIRE income that is 1/4 of the median income of $50k to be rich/wealthy even if that allowed for a middle class lifestyle of home ownership, car and occasional trips? Would people consider forum members like Herpert Derp and myself "wealthy" if we could cover all our expenses plus extras on less than $10k year income and based our FIRE stash number on that amount? Does attaining FI make one independently wealthy? Hmmmm??? Don't know if I'd call it wealthy or not myself but not sure what I'd call it.

How do you see that budget working out?

I own a mortgage free house in what is, honestly, an inexpensive area. We *could* get by on $1000/month, but it would be a squeeze. I think that budget assumes that you never go to the dentist, you have no pets, and you never again need tires or car repairs. I don’t think I’d feel “rich” at that point.

Oddly, I do know someone with a basketball court in his garage, plus a lot of stuffed trophy bears in his living room.

Milizard

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #212 on: November 21, 2017, 06:36:20 PM »
  I think of wealth as the stash--you "grow wealth". It is accumulated,  like net worth. Things are rich when you're hit with a lot of it at once--flavors, colors, spending, income.  So, you can be rich without being wealthy, i.e., earning and spending $5M.  I  don't think you can be wealthy without being rich, aka spending power without diminishing the stash, though you can be financially independent via a more modest stash.

That's my take, anyway. Obviously,  ymmv, as I  see others here saying the exact opposite.

SC93

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2017, 07:06:59 PM »
When I had my cleaning business my girls would clean houses that were 10,000-15,000sf all the time. Quite honestly, big houses have never impressed me and I've been in hundreds of them. They all look alike. We went from a $700,000 house to a $200,000 house because this 1957 house is much cooler than any new house built today. We decked it out with mid century furniture and it feels like we are living in 1962. It's 1861sf and if it was any bigger it would be too big. We were also hesitant to move to this older neighborhood too but it is great! Not sure why the Nasscar guy needs a house so big, I guess to show off to his friends and family..... I guess they aren't too close of friends or family if he has to show off to them. :)

Cranky

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2017, 07:35:50 PM »
Rich is being Financially Independent.   We formerly had a combined household income on just under 500K, 350K after tax, and now we are RE and live lavishly on 1/4 of that amount.  Spending my time doing what I want to makes me rich.  Rich isn't about money.  Rich is about living life without worrying about the money.
By most people's standards a FIRE income that is 1/4 of $350k would be a very high income/rich/wealthy.

I wonder if most here would consider a FIRE income that is 1/4 of the median income of $50k to be rich/wealthy even if that allowed for a middle class lifestyle of home ownership, car and occasional trips? Would people consider forum members like Herpert Derp and myself "wealthy" if we could cover all our expenses plus extras on less than $10k year income and based our FIRE stash number on that amount? Does attaining FI make one independently wealthy? Hmmmm??? Don't know if I'd call it wealthy or not myself but not sure what I'd call it.

How do you see that budget working out?

I own a mortgage free house in what is, honestly, an inexpensive area. We *could* get by on $1000/month, but it would be a squeeze. I think that budget assumes that you never go to the dentist, you have no pets, and you never again need tires or car repairs. I don’t think I’d feel “rich” at that point.

Oddly, I do know someone with a basketball court in his garage, plus a lot of stuffed trophy bears in his living room.
Of course its going to depend on your personal situation. In Herpert Derps case he's single, kidless and owns his place outright with medical thru his job so lies comfortably on around $6k/year expenses (with a fat stash and higher spending once FIRE). In my case as a long term FIREd person who's single and kidless with a paid off house with low taxes and expenses plus free/low cost medical I've been able to also cover all my expenses for the basics on around $600/month (with a higher income for fun stuff, home and car repairs, dentist and pets, etc...). So doable for me and Derp  but not everyone. I also have a fat stash plus a military/ gov pension of $1500/month which alone covers all my expenses with plenty of fun money left over. Havent touched the stash yet but likely will start next year.

So the question is: if I can be FIRE on around $1000/month or less am I wealthy? What if I just bad my pension and no stash? I'd still be FI but I don't think I'd be considered wealthy JUST because I was FI.

It’s the money you’ve got stashed away that makes you “wealthy”, as I said waaay back at the beginnings my of this thread.

But it’s not having very low basic expenses that makes you “rich”, though it does let you live well on a modest income. If you didn’t have the extra income for things beyond the absolute basics and you didn’t have the money that could cover emergencies, you wouldn’t be “rich” IMO. You might be “content” or any number of other admirable things. You might be spiritually rich, of course. But I know people who have that $1000/month income and nothing else, and they just seem stressed.

BlueHouse

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #215 on: November 22, 2017, 09:04:08 AM »

So the question is: if I can be FIRE on around $1000/month or less am I wealthy? What if I just bad my pension and no stash? I'd still be FI but I don't think I'd be considered wealthy JUST because I was FI.

Spartana, I would call you Comfortable and frugal, but not rich.  In your circumstances, you have to be smart and wise and disciplined.  A rich person doesn't have to be any of those things.  So good on you!  you continue to be an inspiration!

nereo

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #216 on: November 22, 2017, 09:51:42 AM »

So the question is: if I can be FIRE on around $1000/month or less am I wealthy? What if I just bad my pension and no stash? I'd still be FI but I don't think I'd be considered wealthy JUST because I was FI.

Spartana, I would call you Comfortable and frugal, but not rich.  In your circumstances, you have to be smart and wise and disciplined.  A rich person doesn't have to be any of those things.  So good on you!  you continue to be an inspiration!
I disagree that a rich person does not also need to be smart and wise and disciplined.  Just look at all the people who have had tens-of-millions and have wound up broke.  Rock stars and lotto winners and professional atheletes and all.  They were once rich but are no more.

... a fool and his money... (and all that).

BlueHouse

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #217 on: December 10, 2017, 03:18:39 PM »

So the question is: if I can be FIRE on around $1000/month or less am I wealthy? What if I just bad my pension and no stash? I'd still be FI but I don't think I'd be considered wealthy JUST because I was FI.

Spartana, I would call you Comfortable and frugal, but not rich.  In your circumstances, you have to be smart and wise and disciplined.  A rich person doesn't have to be any of those things.  So good on you!  you continue to be an inspiration!
Thanks! Of course I do have a decent sized stash, and now that I've sold my paid off house for some crazy ginormous sum I'd definitely consider myself fairly wealthy despite my low expenses. Or maybe because of my low expenses.
Even better!  Congratulations on selling for a crazy amount.  I'm hoping to do the same sometime in the next decade.  Keeping fingers crossed!

big_slacker

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #218 on: December 10, 2017, 05:40:18 PM »
High income, but likely very high mortgage as well. I live in such an area and it's not uncommon to see 40-50% of take home pay going towards a 1200-1500 sq foot 70's decor rambler. :D

Granted that's 50% of $8-$10k/month income and if you're halfway frugal you should be alright. It's that second part that gets people. Because accepting the HCOL (and great schools, lack of commute, natural beauty, nice friendly environment, etc. that come with it) DOESN'T mean you have to accept that it's normal to have $1000/month car payments, $1500/month in groceries from whole foods, $1500/month private schools and so on.

And there is a middle ground where you don't have to go full MMM and still put loads of money into savings every month while driving nice used cars, sending kids to the excellent public schools, buy a few organics but keeping to a grocery budget. Easy livin, some don't know how good they've got it!


powskier

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #219 on: December 10, 2017, 07:21:24 PM »
Just to add some perspective, I recall reading ( sorry I can't find the accurate quote so hope it isn't BS) that if you make over US$ 30k/year you are in the top 1% worldwide.

EDIT: I see this was brought up on page 2 and 3 ( never post after reading only first page :) ) Leaving it for emphasis.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:25:13 PM by powskier »

Gremlin

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #220 on: December 18, 2017, 09:28:04 PM »
If "rich" means two-earner professional households, we need a new term for people like Taylor Swift, Warren Buffet, Michael Jordan, etc.

Michael Jordan has his own private indoor basketball court. That's a totally different level of wealth from anyone on this board.

OT - I have a private indoor basketball court in my house.  At least, my son seems to think so.  And I have the broken living room furniture to prove it!

talltexan

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2017, 07:26:53 AM »
Wouldn't a basketball court for Jordan be like a home office for you or me? Kinda of a basic thing for his career?

LiveLean

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #222 on: December 19, 2017, 08:21:57 AM »
My 12-year-old is in a Boy Scout troop with a kid -- only child -- whose parents bought the 12,000 square foot home of a former Major League Baseball player about 1/2 mile from us. We sometimes pick the kid up for Scouts. We've never been invited in, though I was in the house once years ago when the MLB player owned it. Thus I know that it has a full-court INDOOR basketball court, along with a well-equipped exercise room.

My son also plays basketball, both rec league and AAU, and I coach his rec team. Naturally, I was hoping I could draft the kid onto our rec team and perhaps his parents would let us use the gym/court on occasion. I asked his mom if he played basketball.

She laughed. "No. We just use the basketball court for storage."

That's 4,000 square feet of air-conditioned storage.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:23:47 AM by LiveLean »

The Guru

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #223 on: December 19, 2017, 06:16:34 PM »
Wow, what sort of thought process went into THAT decision: " Sure it's expensive, but it DOES have an indoor basketball court...for us to store stuff!!!"

Facepalm

GreenEggs

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #224 on: December 20, 2017, 08:20:25 AM »
"So, how much of your offshore cash will you bring home in 2018?" 

JoJo

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #225 on: December 20, 2017, 08:25:37 AM »
I heard a term here called a HENRY.  That's what I am:  High Earner, Not Rich Yet. 



I like this term.  I guess I'm HEAR - High Earner Already Rich

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #226 on: December 21, 2017, 07:27:50 AM »
Before we downsized significantly in two stages (cut basically almost size of house twice) we lived in a neighborhood with if my memory serves me right had 164 homes in it on a golf course.  Every other house seemed to have a basketball court in them that it wasn't a big deal! but because everybody had them it almost seemed that made it that nobody used them. In fact the kids would rather be outside playing. It was a status thing I think for many that ended up being nothing but wasted space. I still live in the same school district, building Mc Mansions is going crazy all around me and I haven't seen one home that is putting one in. But there all 7k + plus square footage but the quality is just shit imo. So through school and kids I talk to alot of these people the trend now seems to be everyone builds to entertain friends , have a room for big partys and have people stay over. Thats the last thing I would want. Rather spend time with one or maybe two couples at the most. And no we didnt have one of the house with the basketball hope but we had all the other crap we never used. I just dont see the Millennials buying these house that are going up like crazy either. I could be wrong but I dont feel these homes are a good investment and in fact will be money drags.

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #227 on: December 21, 2017, 09:53:56 AM »
Does anyone else think an indoor basketball court would be really cool to have just to host vr quadcopter races?

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #228 on: December 21, 2017, 02:07:12 PM »
Before we downsized significantly in two stages (cut basically almost size of house twice) we lived in a neighborhood with if my memory serves me right had 164 homes in it on a golf course.  Every other house seemed to have a basketball court in them that it wasn't a big deal! but because everybody had them it almost seemed that made it that nobody used them. In fact the kids would rather be outside playing. It was a status thing I think for many that ended up being nothing but wasted space. I still live in the same school district, building Mc Mansions is going crazy all around me and I haven't seen one home that is putting one in. But there all 7k + plus square footage but the quality is just shit imo. So through school and kids I talk to alot of these people the trend now seems to be everyone builds to entertain friends , have a room for big partys and have people stay over. Thats the last thing I would want. Rather spend time with one or maybe two couples at the most. And no we didnt have one of the house with the basketball hope but we had all the other crap we never used. I just dont see the Millennials buying these house that are going up like crazy either. I could be wrong but I dont feel these homes are a good investment and in fact will be money drags.

Agreed. I can't see the millennials buying the jumbo-sized houses going up around us. I've had visions of McMansion wastelands.

Daisy

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #229 on: December 21, 2017, 02:34:34 PM »
Before we downsized significantly in two stages (cut basically almost size of house twice) we lived in a neighborhood with if my memory serves me right had 164 homes in it on a golf course.  Every other house seemed to have a basketball court in them that it wasn't a big deal! but because everybody had them it almost seemed that made it that nobody used them. In fact the kids would rather be outside playing. It was a status thing I think for many that ended up being nothing but wasted space. I still live in the same school district, building Mc Mansions is going crazy all around me and I haven't seen one home that is putting one in. But there all 7k + plus square footage but the quality is just shit imo. So through school and kids I talk to alot of these people the trend now seems to be everyone builds to entertain friends , have a room for big partys and have people stay over. Thats the last thing I would want. Rather spend time with one or maybe two couples at the most. And no we didnt have one of the house with the basketball hope but we had all the other crap we never used. I just dont see the Millennials buying these house that are going up like crazy either. I could be wrong but I dont feel these homes are a good investment and in fact will be money drags.

Agreed. I can't see the millennials buying the jumbo-sized houses going up around us. I've had visions of McMansion wastelands.

Maybe the next big industry will be to turn McMansions into apartment complexes. I wonder how many famlies you can house in an indoor basketball court turned into apartments.

Imma

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #230 on: December 21, 2017, 06:14:41 PM »
Before we downsized significantly in two stages (cut basically almost size of house twice) we lived in a neighborhood with if my memory serves me right had 164 homes in it on a golf course.  Every other house seemed to have a basketball court in them that it wasn't a big deal! but because everybody had them it almost seemed that made it that nobody used them. In fact the kids would rather be outside playing. It was a status thing I think for many that ended up being nothing but wasted space. I still live in the same school district, building Mc Mansions is going crazy all around me and I haven't seen one home that is putting one in. But there all 7k + plus square footage but the quality is just shit imo. So through school and kids I talk to alot of these people the trend now seems to be everyone builds to entertain friends , have a room for big partys and have people stay over. Thats the last thing I would want. Rather spend time with one or maybe two couples at the most. And no we didnt have one of the house with the basketball hope but we had all the other crap we never used. I just dont see the Millennials buying these house that are going up like crazy either. I could be wrong but I dont feel these homes are a good investment and in fact will be money drags.

Agreed. I can't see the millennials buying the jumbo-sized houses going up around us. I've had visions of McMansion wastelands.

Maybe the next big industry will be to turn McMansions into apartment complexes. I wonder how many famlies you can house in an indoor basketball court turned into apartments.

Since all these bedrooms generally have en-suites, you'd be able to convert one McMansions into  a super luxury apartment complex with studio apartments and a communal basketball court and swimming pool.

Friends of ours actually rent a studio like that in California, and with the money they pay in rent to live in an en-suite bedroom, they'd be able to pay the mortgage on an entire mansion in many other places in the country.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #231 on: December 22, 2017, 06:05:59 AM »
Before we downsized significantly in two stages (cut basically almost size of house twice) we lived in a neighborhood with if my memory serves me right had 164 homes in it on a golf course.  Every other house seemed to have a basketball court in them that it wasn't a big deal! but because everybody had them it almost seemed that made it that nobody used them. In fact the kids would rather be outside playing. It was a status thing I think for many that ended up being nothing but wasted space. I still live in the same school district, building Mc Mansions is going crazy all around me and I haven't seen one home that is putting one in. But there all 7k + plus square footage but the quality is just shit imo. So through school and kids I talk to alot of these people the trend now seems to be everyone builds to entertain friends , have a room for big partys and have people stay over. Thats the last thing I would want. Rather spend time with one or maybe two couples at the most. And no we didnt have one of the house with the basketball hope but we had all the other crap we never used. I just dont see the Millennials buying these house that are going up like crazy either. I could be wrong but I dont feel these homes are a good investment and in fact will be money drags.

Agreed. I can't see the millennials buying the jumbo-sized houses going up around us. I've had visions of McMansion wastelands.

Maybe the next big industry will be to turn McMansions into apartment complexes. I wonder how many famlies you can house in an indoor basketball court turned into apartments.

Since all these bedrooms generally have en-suites, you'd be able to convert one McMansions into  a super luxury apartment complex with studio apartments and a communal basketball court and swimming pool.

Friends of ours actually rent a studio like that in California, and with the money they pay in rent to live in an en-suite bedroom, they'd be able to pay the mortgage on an entire mansion in many other places in the country.



While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #232 on: December 22, 2017, 07:23:09 AM »
One of the neighbors is building a new home that's 24,000 sq ft.  ...
Is that a typo??!!


No typo.  The foundation crew spent all summer with a pile driver, pounding over 300 poles in the ground to support the huge building.  I can't imagine how much was spent before they even began to pour the concrete. 

There's a Nascar driver across the cove that just completed a 35,000 sq ft home! 

I just put in laminate floors & a new roof on my double-wide last year, but nobody seemed to notice.  LOL

Holy hell.

I'd move. Personally that is not where I would want to live and financially I'd love to cash out the land value; heck you might even get a better price if you took your double-wide with you.

big_slacker

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #233 on: December 22, 2017, 07:46:40 AM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #234 on: December 22, 2017, 10:01:08 AM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

I'm curious how does this work with owner occupied.  Back in the day a co-worker of mine paid for his mortgage by renting rooms in his NYC metro house to newly hired co-workers hired from out of the area.  There were no real leases and people generally stayed for less than a year but at one point he had at least 4 people living with him.  Other than enforcing parking laws I don't think the city could do much about it.

MrMoneySaver

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #235 on: December 22, 2017, 10:04:29 AM »
Quote
and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease

Awfully young to sign a lease.

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #236 on: December 22, 2017, 11:04:09 AM »
Quote
and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease

Awfully young to sign a lease.

Chapeau!

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #237 on: December 22, 2017, 11:06:36 AM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

I live in a MCOL town (in western Europe) where we've been have a huge influx of tech workers for the last 5-10 years, the majority of them Asian. I live in average working class / lower middle class neighbourhood. Quite some family homes in here have been converted into houses that are rented out by the room. It is now illegal to convert any more homes, but we never experience any problems from the houses that are already converted. They all have jobs, keep themselves to themselves and live cheaply and quietly so they can send lots of money home. They are generally very polite. I'd gladly trade in some of the families with feral kids for more expats.

BlueHouse

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #238 on: December 22, 2017, 12:41:41 PM »
Wow, what sort of thought process went into THAT decision: " Sure it's expensive, but it DOES have an indoor basketball court...for us to store stuff!!!"

Facepalm

My sister's neighbor has an indoor basketball court.  We went through the house before it was finished (we like to break in to construction sites!).  It really was just the basement, but with a much higher ceiling than normal.  because the lot was a sloped lot, it was easier than what you'd expect (at least that's what they say). What was strange to me though was there was an open hallway above the court for viewing.  But it must make the kitchen/family room so noisy.  We've never been back after the owners moved in. 

big_slacker

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #239 on: December 22, 2017, 01:17:00 PM »
Don't want to multi-quote everyone, but some good discussion:

Owner occupied: I suspect the city wouldn't be able to kick anyone out, but keep in mind these neighborhoods are almost all upper middle class professionals who get organized and vocal when they see a perceived threat to the neighborhood. If the place was quiet and just had a few cars but no real disturbance nothing would happen. In fact we have this right next door to us with an older widow, her long term roomie and they rent their remaining room out. Zero issues. But if it was a flop house with lots of traffic, noise, etc. the SAHM's organize on Nextdoor or a mailing list, security cams get trained on the place and the code enforcement people get bugged till they start cracking down hard on any infraction.

Under 4, haha! Put your x right here and we'll run your credit. Little mistype there. :D

Spartana: That sounds awful, and exactly the type of thing the families and city here wanted to avoid.

Imma: Good that the experience has been less painful than here. I expect that many of the H1B workers here are exactly like this. I work directly with a lot of them and they're helping fill spots that we just can't with US tech workers due to shortages. And my wife is an immigrant now citizen, so I'm not at all taking an anti-immigrant stance. But I've talked with people here that have lived next to some of these houses and unfortunately it hasn't been good. Mostly traffic, parking, rudeness and get togethers that go late or loud.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 03:08:48 PM by big_slacker »

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #240 on: December 22, 2017, 01:50:46 PM »
One of the neighbors is building a new home that's 24,000 sq ft.  ...
Is that a typo??!!


No typo.  The foundation crew spent all summer with a pile driver, pounding over 300 poles in the ground to support the huge building.  I can't imagine how much was spent before they even began to pour the concrete. 

There's a Nascar driver across the cove that just completed a 35,000 sq ft home! 

I just put in laminate floors & a new roof on my double-wide last year, but nobody seemed to notice.  LOL

Holy hell.

I'd move. Personally that is not where I would want to live and financially I'd love to cash out the land value; heck you might even get a better price if you took your double-wide with you.

We are planning to.  My brother also owns a double-wide next door and we're trying to split the two lots and create a third lot.  Almost like creating $1.3M from thin air. I think MMM would be proud. ;) 

My double-wide has to be removed since it's covering a future property line.  It's a couple years too old to legally be moved, so it will have to be demolished.  That's a shame, I'd rather move it or even give it away. 

After selling we'll find another place on a lower priced part of the lake and hang out with regular folks again. 

Metta

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #241 on: December 22, 2017, 01:59:30 PM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

I live in a MCOL town (in western Europe) where we've been have a huge influx of tech workers for the last 5-10 years, the majority of them Asian. I live in average working class / lower middle class neighbourhood. Quite some family homes in here have been converted into houses that are rented out by the room. It is now illegal to convert any more homes, but we never experience any problems from the houses that are already converted. They all have jobs, keep themselves to themselves and live cheaply and quietly so they can send lots of money home. They are generally very polite. I'd gladly trade in some of the families with feral kids for more expats.

My neighborhood is like this as well with several houses being used by a number of transient tech workers from India and our experience is like yours. They are polite and quiet. Though that is generally true of the neighborhood as a whole.

Trifele

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #242 on: December 23, 2017, 05:44:30 AM »

My double-wide has to be removed since it's covering a future property line.  It's a couple years too old to legally be moved, so it will have to be demolished.  That's a shame, I'd rather move it or even give it away. 


GreenEggs -- just curious about this.  Is that a county/local rule?  Or an age limit the moving company puts in place -- having to do with structural integrity?  Thanks

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #243 on: December 23, 2017, 10:47:50 AM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

I'm curious how does this work with owner occupied.  Back in the day a co-worker of mine paid for his mortgage by renting rooms in his NYC metro house to newly hired co-workers hired from out of the area.  There were no real leases and people generally stayed for less than a year but at one point he had at least 4 people living with him.  Other than enforcing parking laws I don't think the city could do much about it.
All the city has to do is pass an ordinance and they can restrict tenancy any way they like. Tenant restrictions on SFH go back to at least the 1930's (from memory) and have been found in the courts to be 100% legal. I'll try and dig up some court cases when I have a moment.

Megma

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #244 on: December 23, 2017, 06:39:02 PM »
While a great idea , there is no way that would pass zoning laws in our state. Never! Have these neighborhoods are building huge community centers w/playgrounds, pools and BB courts already. And all the lots where I live have doubled if not tripled in the last 10 years so these people that are building as opposed to having instant equity are so upside down.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. We had the start of things like this happen in my HCOL but family friendly town. Because we have tech workers being imported from all over the world, landlords were starting to turn their single family homes into multi-person single room per tenant boardinghouses. Imagine you're raising your kids in a quiet cul de sac and all of a sudden the house next door has 6-10 cars parked all over including in front of your house, coming and going at all hours, different neighbors every month, noise issues, traffic, etc. The city council stepped in and said no more than 4 unrelated people living together, and if those under 4 want to live together they all need to be on the same lease so they're effectively a family unit. This nicely allows long term roomies but keeps quiet neighborhoods from being destroyed by opportunistic landlords.

Single family was zoned single family for a reason. I'm not a fan of McMansions, but I don't think this would fly in most places, especially one where there are high earning professionals with families.

I'm curious how does this work with owner occupied.  Back in the day a co-worker of mine paid for his mortgage by renting rooms in his NYC metro house to newly hired co-workers hired from out of the area.  There were no real leases and people generally stayed for less than a year but at one point he had at least 4 people living with him.  Other than enforcing parking laws I don't think the city could do much about it.
All the city has to do is pass an ordinance and they can restrict tenancy any way they like. Tenant restrictions on SFH go back to at least the 1930's (from memory) and have been found in the courts to be 100% legal. I'll try and dig up some court cases when I have a moment.

Some college towns have laws like this, limiting the number of unrelated persons in one house. One of the localities near me has it but I can’t recall which one, I believe it’s caped at 4 unrelated people in a house, which is still a fair number.

GreenEggs

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #245 on: December 24, 2017, 10:24:03 AM »

My double-wide has to be removed since it's covering a future property line.  It's a couple years too old to legally be moved, so it will have to be demolished.  That's a shame, I'd rather move it or even give it away. 



GreenEggs -- just curious about this.  Is that a county/local rule?  Or an age limit the moving company puts in place -- having to do with structural integrity?  Thanks

It was manufactured in 1974 and NCDOT only allows 1976 and newer to be moved.  I think there were building code improvements for mobile homes in 76'.    Even if it could be moved the county doesn't allow mobile homes now, so it would have to be pulled to another county. 
Btw, I've been pretty impressed with the quality of it and the floorplan is very usable.  Besides needing the shingles replaced it has been very low maintenance. If you're looking for an inexpensive home I'd much rather have a mobile home over a tiny home.  Ours is over 2000 sq ft, has a fireplace, laundry room, large living room, and 3 bedrooms.  The master has a walk-in closet and a garden tub. 
Sadly, the tax value is less than the price of an average new car.   

RangerOne

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #246 on: December 24, 2017, 11:32:52 AM »
I think it is normal to get caught up in your bubble which can blind any of us to how well off we are. If you are in the top quintile or earners you generally live a very different life than an average income earner if you chose too.

Yes we geenrally all have to budget but the reality is if you are making over $100k+ in all but the most expensive cities you are likely in a very unique position that is upper middle class.

The major difference with middle class and upper middle income is that I have a variety of ways to get ahead. I am saving money. I can easily handle a $500 deductible or pay out of pocket for emergencies. If I lose my emergency fund, it builds up again quickly. I can pay down my debt. I have never had to live pay check to pay check, well except while in school but I suspect I was just bad with money.

I can't necessairly afford private schools and a million activities for my kids easily. But I am along the spectrum of people that can chose to stretch and afford significant opportunities and luxuries or can build wealth.

I think it is lost on people sometimes that those who are working lower skilled jobs have none of these resources or options. Being able to chose to have poor finances is to me the number one signature of the upper middle class.

Though no definitive income can nail down the division between the two. It all comes down to cash flow after cost of living. So if you can buy or rent amazingly cheap far less income is necessary.

Being upper middle class these days I feel doesn't mean you are "rich" by the American television standard. What it means is that you have a lot of autonomy and control. And are every resilient to changes in our system like the recent new tax code or changes to healthcare. All we have to worry about is managing or finances and the rest will generally fall into place.

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #247 on: December 24, 2017, 01:01:59 PM »
I think it is normal to get caught up in your bubble which can blind any of us to how well off we are. If you are in the top quintile or earners you generally live a very different life than an average income earner if you chose too.

Yes we geenrally all have to budget but the reality is if you are making over $100k+ in all but the most expensive cities you are likely in a very unique position that is upper middle class.

The major difference with middle class and upper middle income is that I have a variety of ways to get ahead. I am saving money. I can easily handle a $500 deductible or pay out of pocket for emergencies. If I lose my emergency fund, it builds up again quickly. I can pay down my debt. I have never had to live pay check to pay check, well except while in school but I suspect I was just bad with money.

I can't necessairly afford private schools and a million activities for my kids easily. But I am along the spectrum of people that can chose to stretch and afford significant opportunities and luxuries or can build wealth.

I think it is lost on people sometimes that those who are working lower skilled jobs have none of these resources or options. Being able to chose to have poor finances is to me the number one signature of the upper middle class.

Though no definitive income can nail down the division between the two. It all comes down to cash flow after cost of living. So if you can buy or rent amazingly cheap far less income is necessary.

Being upper middle class these days I feel doesn't mean you are "rich" by the American television standard. What it means is that you have a lot of autonomy and control. And are every resilient to changes in our system like the recent new tax code or changes to healthcare. All we have to worry about is managing or finances and the rest will generally fall into place.

Great post, rangerOne, couldn't agree more.

Craig

Megma

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #248 on: December 25, 2017, 08:07:31 PM »
I think it is normal to get caught up in your bubble which can blind any of us to how well off we are. If you are in the top quintile or earners you generally live a very different life than an average income earner if you chose too.

Yes we geenrally all have to budget but the reality is if you are making over $100k+ in all but the most expensive cities you are likely in a very unique position that is upper middle class.

The major difference with middle class and upper middle income is that I have a variety of ways to get ahead. I am saving money. I can easily handle a $500 deductible or pay out of pocket for emergencies. If I lose my emergency fund, it builds up again quickly. I can pay down my debt. I have never had to live pay check to pay check, well except while in school but I suspect I was just bad with money.

I can't necessairly afford private schools and a million activities for my kids easily. But I am along the spectrum of people that can chose to stretch and afford significant opportunities and luxuries or can build wealth.

I think it is lost on people sometimes that those who are working lower skilled jobs have none of these resources or options. Being able to chose to have poor finances is to me the number one signature of the upper middle class.

Though no definitive income can nail down the division between the two. It all comes down to cash flow after cost of living. So if you can buy or rent amazingly cheap far less income is necessary.

Being upper middle class these days I feel doesn't mean you are "rich" by the American television standard. What it means is that you have a lot of autonomy and control. And are every resilient to changes in our system like the recent new tax code or changes to healthcare. All we have to worry about is managing or finances and the rest will generally fall into place.

Great post, rangerOne, couldn't agree more.

Craig

Very well said. I think people often forget that more money brings more choices and that’s the real difference between middle class and those stuck in lower skilled jobs.

Imma

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Re: Conversations with the Wealthy but Working neighbors
« Reply #249 on: December 27, 2017, 04:34:09 AM »
Imma: Good that the experience has been less painful than here. I expect that many of the H1B workers here are exactly like this. I work directly with a lot of them and they're helping fill spots that we just can't with US tech workers due to shortages. And my wife is an immigrant now citizen, so I'm not at all taking an anti-immigrant stance. But I've talked with people here that have lived next to some of these houses and unfortunately it hasn't been good. Mostly traffic, parking, rudeness and get togethers that go late or loud.

I think one thing that really helps is that these houses are owned by locals. They're not owned by some landlord living far away looking for an easy way to make money, but by people who live in this neighbourhood. So there's an incentive to make sure the place is rented out to people who aren't likely to cause problems.

I believe these small time landlord are also really important to the community: the rise of the high tech industry in this town is great, but many low-skilled tech jobs have been moved to Eastern Europe and Asia. These working class landlords have found another way to profit from the tech boom, instead of ending up unemployed. One landlord, who lives in my street, acquired his first property through an inheritance. He'd never owned property before, but through the profits of this first rental he was able to buy a family home and a few more rentals. He's not looking to own a lot of properties, he owns about 5 now and that's enough for him. He can make a living and he's not disrupting this neighbourhood. He is a skilled builder so he does odd jobs for other people sometimes. Basically, he FIRE'd aged 35-40, he and his wife have plenty of time to spend with their children, he's an active member of the community and all of this without a high school diploma and barely being able to read and write.