Confused about cars

[ditheca]

We've had bad luck with vehicles in the past, mostly due to a lack of planning.  We bought a used minivan five years ago because DW wanted it and we had the money.  Didn't really think about it at all.  Between low mpg, depreciation, and a very unlucky series of repairs, it has cost us $0.63/mile. (4k miles per year).

We test-drove a used Honda Fit as a potential replacement.  All three kids and their car seats fit fine in the back, and DW called the car 'perfect.'  Then we started looking at the used market in our area and learned the horror of their low depreciation.  It seems everyone knows these cars are great and the used market is too competitive?

A new 2016 costs $17k.
Several dealer certified used 2013 costs $15k.
Lots of other options with 90k+ miles for $10-13k
A used 2008 with 120k miles costs $7k.

It seems like the new Fit might be the best deal, but the logistics are confusing.  In order to pay cash for a new Fit, I'd need to lower my 401k contributions from 35% to 10% (company match limit) for a couple months prior to the purchase, and then many months after to rebuild our emergency savings.  It hurts to lower my contribution so soon after getting excited about retirement savings.  If we buy new, I won't be able to max my 401k this year, and might not even completely max it next year.

Can anyone give me some tips on how to think about this purchase?  Maybe the used Fits with high mileage are a better deal than they seem?  I could cover a 10k purchase without denting my investment rate.  Am I'm being foolish to invest so heavily in the market when I'm hemorrhaging money at the pump & mechanic?

[r3dt4rget]

We've had bad luck with vehicles in the past, mostly due to a lack of planning.  We bought a used minivan five years ago because DW wanted it and we had the money.  Didn't really think about it at all.  Between low mpg, depreciation, and a very unlucky series of repairs, it has cost us $0.63/mile. (4k miles per year).

We test-drove a used Honda Fit as a potential replacement.  All three kids and their car seats fit fine in the back, and DW called the car 'perfect.'  Then we started looking at the used market in our area and learned the horror of their low depreciation.  It seems everyone knows these cars are great and the used market is too competitive?

A new 2016 costs $17k.
Several dealer certified used 2013 costs $15k.
Lots of other options with 90k+ miles for $10-13k
A used 2008 with 120k miles costs $7k.

It seems like the new Fit might be the best deal, but the logistics are confusing.  In order to pay cash for a new Fit, I'd need to lower my 401k contributions from 35% to 10% (company match limit) for a couple months prior to the purchase, and then many months after to rebuild our emergency savings.  It hurts to lower my contribution so soon after getting excited about retirement savings.  If we buy new, I won't be able to max my 401k this year, and might not even completely max it next year.

Can anyone give me some tips on how to think about this purchase?  Maybe the used Fits with high mileage are a better deal than they seem?  I could cover a 10k purchase without denting my investment rate.  Am I'm being foolish to invest so heavily in the market when I'm hemorrhaging money at the pump & mechanic?

Look past the Fit. It's a great car, but they are too expensive IMO. There are similar options that are just as reliable and functional for much less. Personally I've been looking at the 2008+ Kia Spectra5. It's a 5 door hatchback, gets decent MPG, and you can find them for $6-$10k under 100k miles all day long. Other good options are the Ford Focus 5 door hatchback and Pontiac Vibe/Matrix. You don't drive very much. You don't need anything that costs over $8k, and it should last you 10+ years.

As far as the finance is concerned, it doesn't ever make sense to get the newer cars. Depreciation is a guaranteed cost, as are the higher insurance rates and taxes. One of the big mistakes people make is thinking, "The new Fit is only a few thousand more, so it's a better deal than the 5 year old used one". You only drive 4k miles a year. Get the cheapest reasonable car you can find and focus on spending/saving your money elsewhere. Is an item you only use occasionally really worth $17k?!? If you do the math on the cost/mile, 10+ year old cars with good fuel economy are the best option.

[golden1]

I found the same issue with many Toyotas and Hondas, especially desirable models like the fit.  I was looking at used CR-V's awhile ago and found that the new models were only a $2-3K more than models with 30-40K miles on them.  The real depreciation starts at 70K miles or more. 

[forummm]

Maybe the Leaf will work for you? New ones have great tax credits (federally and in many states) along with manufacturer cash back an 0% financing. The energy and maintenance costs are almost nothing. For me it was a lot cheaper to buy a brand new one than keep my paid off Corolla.

A lot of used ones are still under warranty and a lot cheaper due to all the tax credits the previous owner/lessee got.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/nissan-leaf-almost-paying-me-to-drive-it/

And CA has a good deal going on too.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/nissan-leaf-almost-paying-me-to-drive-it/msg731919/#msg731919

[Sam E]

A new 2016 costs $17k.
Several dealer certified used 2013 costs $15k.
Lots of other options with 90k+ miles for $10-13k
A used 2008 with 120k miles costs $7k.

The reason for the small difference between the first two is probably what options are loaded into the certified used cars. I actually just recently did the same kind of comparison for Corollas and was confused about why the certified used ones were only a couple thousand dollars shy of the brand new price.

When I looked closer, I realized what it was. The new price of $17k or so I was seeing listed was for a base model Corolla L with no options added. The certified used cars were all Corolla LEs loaded down with all kinds of options (faux leather interior, navigation, satellite radio, power seats, heated seats, etc etc). So those certified used cars were actually worth closer to $25k when bought new, now being sold for $16k used.

Ultimately the problem is that people in general like to load down their new cars with all kinds of useless shit that a more frugal person might not even consider adding to a car. Especially for lease, loaner, or demo vehicles. I ended up forced into buying a brand new car because I had too much negative equity on my trade-in to get a used car loan. During the process of picking a new car on the lot I kept asking to remove features. "If I ordered one of these custom, could I remove the Bluetooth/touchscreen/cameras/USB/etc?" "Nope, those are standard features that can't be removed. Isn't it great how much comes in cars by default these days?" "Well, no, not really... I won't use any of it anyway so I'd rather have a discount..."

[BarkyardBQ]

OP. This is a perfectly normal debate to have. The true cost of anything isn't calculated by it's sticker price, but by the opportunity cost of that money not being invested for the future. Some scenarios make it cheaper to drive the low mpg vehicle until it dies.

My wife and I are in a similar situation. We own 3 vehicles and they are all necessary* (don't debate this with me forum). 1 of them, which we drive daily and carpool to work in is a 2001 Ford Expedition with 13 MPG. At $1900 KBB value, it's cheaper to spend $2000 a year on gas until it DIES than to front the cost of not investing ~$4k on a used Toyota Corolla.

$6000 KBB for 2005 Toyota Corolla
-$1900 for Expedition
$4100 expense

It would take 3.4 years of driving the Corolla to save on gas to make up for that $4100 purchase. At 7% for 3.4 years $4100 becomes $5160. Investing an extra $100 a month for 3.4 years becomes $4591, with only $511 of that being growth.

Now depending on the repairs you are having to pay for... there should be a break away point. We currently spend $80 every 6 months on basic maintenance for the Expedition. If we had a repair of more than $1000, we'd probably rethink getting a new car.


*Alternatively, if we continue to carpool for the next few years until the Expedition dies, we may choose not to buy a new vehicle until FIRE, and start using the other one for daily driving.

[StockBeard]

We own 3 vehicles and they are all necessary*

/Prepares to violently argue

(don't debate this with me forum).

Aww :(

[The_path_less_taken]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

In the ideal world we all work from home or have dividend investments or rental property next door that supports us, so we can all just bike our groceries home.

But some of need a truck to haul horses, hay, firewood. And some of us are listening to coyotes howl and roosters crow as they type this....and will be commuting 24 miles to work shortly.

Your mileage may vary.

[immocardo]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

In the ideal world we all work from home or have dividend investments or rental property next door that supports us, so we can all just bike our groceries home.

But some of need a truck to haul horses, hay, firewood. And some of us are listening to coyotes howl and roosters crow as they type this....and will be commuting 24 miles to work shortly.

Your mileage may vary.

Yes, you are correct that "New" may be better than "Almost new".  But I will still maintain that new will never be worth it.  If it was actually worth it, car dealerships wouldn't be a thing.

[StartingEarly]

You drive 4k miles a year. Even if your car got 20mpg you'd have a lower gas bill than most. I would say look for something reliable and comfortable and don't think about mpg at all unless it's something like an H2. Crown Victorias are reliable and can be had for relatively cheap.

[tstache]

I just bought an 07 Fit, one owner, 77k miles for $6300. Cash of course. The owner had all service records and it was in great condition. Deals are out there. It took me a while to find it but the time I spent searching (and waiting) was worth it. 77k miles is low in my opinion for this car. Man, I LOVE DRIVING IT! 

[Chris22]

Yes, you are correct that "New" may be better than "Almost new".  But I will still maintain that new will never be worth it.  If it was actually worth it, car dealerships wouldn't be a thing.

Huh?

[jzb11]

hertzcarsales.com

You can find decent deals there depending on the car, though they are newer and cost a bit more (i.e no 2008 cars for 5,000). With that said you can find a 2013 focus SE hatchback with for $10k (50% less than the MSRP of 20,000).

https://www.hertzcarsales.com/vehicle/details/14221933

[MrsPete]

I'll kick the sacred cow too:  I am driving a car that we bought new eight years ago, and it was absolutely the right choice. 

At the point we bought, the price difference between a new and late-model-used Civic was less than $1000 (it may've been an unusual moment in time, but it was true when I bought my car).  For that relatively small amount, we got exactly the car we wanted, and we knew it had no maintenance problems.  It was just under 20K, and we paid cash.  In eight years we've replaced the oil and tires, and we've purchased a lifetime alignment -- and that's it.  I treat this car like a baby, and I really think we'll get 20 years out of it -- not bad considering the number of weekend trips we take.

However, I think you should go a little larger than a Fit.  You say you can fit in three carseats -- good -- but you need to think long term with this purchase because NOT trading up is a good long-term strategy.  My two girls are now adults, and they fit comfortably in the back seat of my Civic.  Let one of them bring a friend, and they're cramped ... and I'm talking about a car one notch up in size.  Three in the back of a Civic every day would be uncomfortable, and taking a weekend trip with five people in the car would be limiting in terms of trunk space.  If you choose well, your three small children will be teens /adults, and you'll still be driving this same car.  So consider your purchase with three teens /adults instead of three small children.

Now, about the money.  If you're driving only 4,000 miles per year, you're not really losing that much money at the pump and the mechanics.  Ask yourself honestly, are you just irritated with your current car at this moment, or do you have new car fever?  Do you have to have it RIGHT NOW?  Instead of reducing your investments, can you save aggressively for the rest of 2015 ... with an eye towards buying a 2015 when the 2016s come out? 

[DeltaBond]

I had a '13 Honda Fit, as did my husband.  I was in a wreck, rear ended, and thankfully my daughter was not in the car with me.  I will never be in a small car like that again.  I don't care how "safe it is in its class", you aren't on the road with all Honda Fits, so hearing that a bunch of car seats fits in the back perfectly gives me chills.  Get something safer!

[tvan]

I had a '13 Honda Fit, as did my husband.  I was in a wreck, rear ended, and thankfully my daughter was not in the car with me.  I will never be in a small car like that again.  I don't care how "safe it is in its class", you aren't on the road with all Honda Fits, so hearing that a bunch of car seats fits in the back perfectly gives me chills.  Get something safer!

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/how-the-size-of-your-wallet-protects-you-in-a-car-123390976917.html

[ditheca]

Now, about the money.  If you're driving only 4,000 miles per year, you're not really losing that much money at the pump and the mechanics.  Ask yourself honestly, are you just irritated with your current car at this moment, or do you have new car fever?  Do you have to have it RIGHT NOW? 

No, we don't have to have it "right now."  We are getting rid of the van immediately, and will be a one-car household until we find something we like.  I bike to work, so it isn't too much hassle.  We'll need the replacement car before winter, because my '01 elantra has no heater. I'm fine wearing layers and blankets, but DW and kids don't deserve to put up with that :)

We've spent about 23k on the van purchase, repairs, and gas putting 22,000 miles on it over the past 5 years.  Its resale value is 3.5 - 4.5k. Yes we are really irritated with it, and yes we did lose that much money .

[Turnbull]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

Where are you looking for cars? I did a quick search on Autotrader and there are numerous listings for Prii with less than 10,000 miles for $10,000 cheaper than new. I agree that certain options can affect the prices but there can't be that much of a difference.

I hear coyotes out here and a rooster as well ;)

[mariejm]

Would it be possible to fix the heater in the Elantra?  The reason I ask is my car is a 2001 Camry and it runs great. It will last at least a decade longer and cost very little to buy, maintain and run. Will you be selling your Elantra?

A used 2008 with 120k miles costs $7k.

This.

You are just getting started on saving for retirement and you want to spend 15K on a brand new car? Think about it... you lose several thousand dollars in resale value the moment you drive it off the lot. You will be driving around a "down payment on the house" that is vulnerable to theft, break ins and accidents. You still have to pay taxes, gas, insurance, maintenance on TOP of that 15K!!!! Crazy (although you are a mother and I might feel different if I had kids in the back of my car).

Even when I have all the money in the world the most I would spend on a used car is 5K. Likely a Toyota and hopefully a Prius hatch because of the amazing timing chain, brakes, and gas mileage. Cars get banged up, even if they are new, my aunt just bought a new Honda CRV and had it for 1 month, someone dinged her bad in the parking lot. She's pissed. I'm like, that is why I drive old cars. No one cars when your 3K car gets bumped in the parking lot. She tried getting the big ding out with a plunger. She is unhappy because the car was expensive.

New cars are NOT worth it!

My car right now is a Toyota Camry (so so roomy) and it cost 2K with brand new tires and battery. It drives perfectly, has good safety regulations... and it was only 2K. I love that it is a cheap liability versus an expensive one!

 My pick for you is Pontiac Vibe/Matrix. 2004-2006 Prius Hatchbacks might be found for 5-6K. great gas mileage. The battery packs cost $1000k to get replaced and its painless by ordering online from a reputable company.

Look for a car with no accidents, oil change reciepts, well maintained and new tires.

At 100K Toyota or Honda is just getting broken in.

For a used car, 3-4K is about what I would spend on a Pontiac Vibe (or Matrix, Vibe’s are cheaper because some people don’t know they are Toyota built). Anything past 2004 is a good model!

[MrsPete]

Now, about the money.  If you're driving only 4,000 miles per year, you're not really losing that much money at the pump and the mechanics.  Ask yourself honestly, are you just irritated with your current car at this moment, or do you have new car fever?  Do you have to have it RIGHT NOW? 

No, we don't have to have it "right now."  We are getting rid of the van immediately, and will be a one-car household until we find something we like.  I bike to work, so it isn't too much hassle.  We'll need the replacement car before winter, because my '01 elantra has no heater. I'm fine wearing layers and blankets, but DW and kids don't deserve to put up with that :)

We've spent about 23k on the van purchase, repairs, and gas putting 22,000 miles on it over the past 5 years.  Its resale value is 3.5 - 4.5k. Yes we are really irritated with it, and yes we did lose that much money .

If your wife's at home with the kids, becoming a one-car household is just sensible.  We did that for years, and it was one of the things that allowed us to get on our feet financially as a young couple.  Once we retire, we'll return to that one-car state (and if we didn't work completely different hours, we'd do it now). 

As for losing so much money on the van, two comments:

- It's not really fair to include gas in the "cost" of your vehicle, as it's a consumable good, not part of the purchase price.  I'm iffy on including the repair costs. 
- The real issue is that you've only kept it five years.  To "get the good out of a vehicle", you have to keep it long term.  In contrast to your story, my car cost not-quite-20K eight years ago.  It's still in perfect condition (if you don't include dirt) now, so I genuinely expect to get 20 years out of it.  Assuming that works out -- and we can't know for sure -- my initial investment will only be about 1K/year of the car's life.  If I'd sold it at five years, it would've been 4K/year of the car's life.  Buying what you really need and holding onto it is a cornerstone of frugal behavior.

[ditheca]

Update:

Thanks everyone for the welcome advice! We ended up splurging on a nice car, but thanks to you all, we did it deliberately and understood the opportunity cost.

We spent 11.5k cash on a 2012 Fit with 38k miles from a good home.  Wife and kids are ecstatic, parents and in-laws are no longer concerned that I'm depriving my wife with 'excessive frugality', and we (barely) still have enough money to continue investing at our target 35%.

We also bought a bike trailer from craigslist (first craigslist purchase ever!) so DW can bike our daughter to preschool this year.

[EricP]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

Where are you looking for cars? I did a quick search on Autotrader and there are numerous listings for Prii with less than 10,000 miles for $10,000 cheaper than new. I agree that certain options can affect the prices but there can't be that much of a difference.

I hear coyotes out here and a rooster as well ;)

Attempted to replicate your search.  Searched for Prii on Autotrader at <15k miles and <$15k since MSRP is $24k.  Expanding out to the entire country, I found 11 listings that matched the criteria.  Half those were salvage titles or sketchy listings.  So in the whole country, I only found 6 listings that met the criteria.  Not what I would call "numerous."

Did I do the search incorrectly?  Why were my results so much different from yours?

@immocardo, really confused by why dealerships wouldn't be a thing if new cars were better.  Mind explaining a little bit.

[Turnbull]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

Where are you looking for cars? I did a quick search on Autotrader and there are numerous listings for Prii with less than 10,000 miles for $10,000 cheaper than new. I agree that certain options can affect the prices but there can't be that much of a difference.

I hear coyotes out here and a rooster as well ;)

Attempted to replicate your search.  Searched for Prii on Autotrader at <15k miles and <$15k since MSRP is $24k.  Expanding out to the entire country, I found 11 listings that matched the criteria.  Half those were salvage titles or sketchy listings.  So in the whole country, I only found 6 listings that met the criteria.  Not what I would call "numerous."

Did I do the search incorrectly?  Why were my results so much different from yours?

@immocardo, really confused by why dealerships wouldn't be a thing if new cars were better.  Mind explaining a little bit.

The difference is the MSRP we're using for new ones. I see them all over Autotrader new for MSRPs listed between $32k and $36k. There are a few listed at over $38k.

My post was in response to the statement that at 50k miles they're only a thousand less than new. Even using your MSRP of $24k you can get them $10k cheaper than that with 50k miles. Nationwide there are 130 listings of less than 45k miles and a max price of $14k.

[Turnbull]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=37187&endYear=2016&modelCode1=PRIUS&showcaseOwnerId=601601&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BPRIUS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=404458233&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=37187&endYear=2016&modelCode1=PRIUSV&showcaseOwnerId=601601&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=404358730&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BPRIUSV%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=405742190&Log=0

[EricP]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

Where are you looking for cars? I did a quick search on Autotrader and there are numerous listings for Prii with less than 10,000 miles for $10,000 cheaper than new. I agree that certain options can affect the prices but there can't be that much of a difference.

I hear coyotes out here and a rooster as well ;)

Attempted to replicate your search.  Searched for Prii on Autotrader at <15k miles and <$15k since MSRP is $24k.  Expanding out to the entire country, I found 11 listings that matched the criteria.  Half those were salvage titles or sketchy listings.  So in the whole country, I only found 6 listings that met the criteria.  Not what I would call "numerous."

Did I do the search incorrectly?  Why were my results so much different from yours?

@immocardo, really confused by why dealerships wouldn't be a thing if new cars were better.  Mind explaining a little bit.

The difference is the MSRP we're using for new ones. I see them all over Autotrader new for MSRPs listed between $32k and $36k. There are a few listed at over $38k.

My post was in response to the statement that at 50k miles they're only a thousand less than new. Even using your MSRP of $24k you can get them $10k cheaper than that with 50k miles. Nationwide there are 130 listings of less than 45k miles and a max price of $14k.

Why use a fully loaded MSRP, when I can walk into the store and get stripped down Prius for $24k MSRP (without even talking about how you'll NEVER pay MSRP for a car)?  That just makes no sense to me.  I understand that a lot of these used cars probably have these bells and whistles, too, but they provide no value to me so we should be basing our calcs on the low-end of new Priuses, not the high end.

Your other search is valid, but 130 listings nationwide is not very many.  It doesn't do me any good having this car in LA.  The lowest mileage Prius for under $14k in my area is 85k miles and it's not like I live in the middle of nowhere.  At 85k miles you're starting to get out of the factory warranty phase and getting close to the point where you'll need to drop $4k on a new battery, not to mention the fact that 85k miles is quite a lot for using less than half of the "capital cost."  It would need to get more than 200k miles without putting a penny into it for anything other than oil changes and tires to be clearly a better choice and that is unlikely to happen. 

My point is that your listings are the exception, not the norm.  Sure, if you scoured for 6 months then you would be able to find a good deal in your area, but most people (myself included) are going to be buying a new car because their old one just had a major malfunction and the repair guy was able to get another few hundred miles out of it for $300, but it needs to be replaced ASAP.

As for your second post with examples, I'm pretty sure you're just comparing a fully loaded new car to a mid range used car.  (And potentially a lot more "negotiation" available on the new car, and one car is from NC and one from OH IE a WHOLE lot of variance).  From a quick look a couple items leading me to this conclusion that the new car has the used car doesn't have are a "Digital Info Center" and "Keyless Entry" and an "Illuminated Glove Box" and the list just looks a lot longer for the new car.

[Turnbull]

Hate to be the one to kick over a sacred cow, but sometimes new makes a lot more sense.

Example: Toyota Prius has several models now with a $2,000 cash rebate. But on the used market it's as you describe...50k miles and only a thousand or so less purchase price.

Given depreciation and possible resale value, you're better off to get the new one. At 0% financing.

Where are you looking for cars? I did a quick search on Autotrader and there are numerous listings for Prii with less than 10,000 miles for $10,000 cheaper than new. I agree that certain options can affect the prices but there can't be that much of a difference.

I hear coyotes out here and a rooster as well ;)

Attempted to replicate your search.  Searched for Prii on Autotrader at <15k miles and <$15k since MSRP is $24k.  Expanding out to the entire country, I found 11 listings that matched the criteria.  Half those were salvage titles or sketchy listings.  So in the whole country, I only found 6 listings that met the criteria.  Not what I would call "numerous."

Did I do the search incorrectly?  Why were my results so much different from yours?

@immocardo, really confused by why dealerships wouldn't be a thing if new cars were better.  Mind explaining a little bit.

The difference is the MSRP we're using for new ones. I see them all over Autotrader new for MSRPs listed between $32k and $36k. There are a few listed at over $38k.

My post was in response to the statement that at 50k miles they're only a thousand less than new. Even using your MSRP of $24k you can get them $10k cheaper than that with 50k miles. Nationwide there are 130 listings of less than 45k miles and a max price of $14k.

Why use a fully loaded MSRP, when I can walk into the store and get stripped down Prius for $24k MSRP (without even talking about how you'll NEVER pay MSRP for a car)?  That just makes no sense to me.  I understand that a lot of these used cars probably have these bells and whistles, too, but they provide no value to me so we should be basing our calcs on the low-end of new Priuses, not the high end.

Your other search is valid, but 130 listings nationwide is not very many.  It doesn't do me any good having this car in LA.  The lowest mileage Prius for under $14k in my area is 85k miles and it's not like I live in the middle of nowhere.  At 85k miles you're starting to get out of the factory warranty phase and getting close to the point where you'll need to drop $4k on a new battery, not to mention the fact that 85k miles is quite a lot for using less than half of the "capital cost."  It would need to get more than 200k miles without putting a penny into it for anything other than oil changes and tires to be clearly a better choice and that is unlikely to happen. 

My point is that your listings are the exception, not the norm.  Sure, if you scoured for 6 months then you would be able to find a good deal in your area, but most people (myself included) are going to be buying a new car because their old one just had a major malfunction and the repair guy was able to get another few hundred miles out of it for $300, but it needs to be replaced ASAP.

As for your second post with examples, I'm pretty sure you're just comparing a fully loaded new car to a mid range used car.  (And potentially a lot more "negotiation" available on the new car, and one car is from NC and one from OH IE a WHOLE lot of variance).  From a quick look a couple items leading me to this conclusion that the new car has the used car doesn't have are a "Digital Info Center" and "Keyless Entry" and an "Illuminated Glove Box" and the list just looks a lot longer for the new car.

Next time I'll be sure to ask where you live and customize my search to your area. You're the one who brought up nationwide listings. Sorry that 130 listings are not enough for you.  Did you notice in my original post where I said I understand that options can affect prices a little?

[EricP]

@Turnbull

I brought up nationwide listings because that was the only possible way to find a Prius that fit what I thought were your assumptions.  And now you're just being an ass.  Used is not a surefire way to save, as OP found out.

Minimal decrease in cost per mile driven.  They basically depreciate right in line with miles driven until the point where you start needing to pump them up with MX costs. There is a very small premium on the first miles, but nothing significant and is probably worth the peace of mind and benefits of being a single owner car.  He saved $4200 off MSRP in exchange for 38k miles. (which no one pays MSRP for new cars, but we'll go with it)  Using that same rate of $$/mile, he'll need to get to 142k miles without a significant MX issue.  Is it possible?  Sure, but it's definitely not a guarantee. 

[Bob W]

For my money the Camry's will always be the thing for me.   Ours went down with 385K.  Bought daughter an 06 with 148K for 5.5K.  Am looking for another one soon for me.    MPG around 30 on hwy and 25 city.   And I swear never a significant repair issue.    We did finally put a timing chain on the ours at around 340K for $450.   But that was about 150K overdue.   

The Camry will easily fit 3 kiddos in back and the crash statistics are probably middle of the road.  It is a fairly heavy car. 

[Turnbull]

@Turnbull

I brought up nationwide listings because that was the only possible way to find a Prius that fit what I thought were your assumptions.  And now you're just being an ass.  Used is not a surefire way to save, as OP found out.

Minimal decrease in cost per mile driven.  They basically depreciate right in line with miles driven until the point where you start needing to pump them up with MX costs. There is a very small premium on the first miles, but nothing significant and is probably worth the peace of mind and benefits of being a single owner car.  He saved $4200 off MSRP in exchange for 38k miles. (which no one pays MSRP for new cars, but we'll go with it)  Using that same rate of $$/mile, he'll need to get to 142k miles without a significant MX issue.  Is it possible?  Sure, but it's definitely not a guarantee.

Of course no one pays MSRP for a new car. I hope no one pays the list price for a used car either. But until we have a way to see car sales like we see public real estate records we're going to have to compare list price.

Getting to 142k miles without a significant issue might not be a guarantee but it's pretty likely with a Honda or Toyota.

You can go through all the nationwide listings and compare every single option and assign a value to them. I'm done. I will continue to buy used cars. You can buy new ones all you want.