City person in a small town

[Watchmaker]

The ongoing thread about South Dakota got me thinking about small towns, and the eternal big city vs. small town debate.  I didn't want to hijack that thread, so I've started a new topic.

I'd call myself a city person.  If money was no object, I'd live in London.  Or Rome.  I love the access to arts and restaurants, and being exposed to other cultures I might otherwise never learn about.  I love being able to walk everywhere.  I don't need (or want) a big house, or a yard.  I just love how much stuff goes on in a city.

I don't live in London or Rome though.  I live in a small town (Pop: 2500) about an hour from a medium sized city, and 3 hours from a big city.  I'm not from here originally-- I moved for work.

I think I'd be pretty unhappy in the "typical" small town.  Too quiet, too conservative.  But I'm lucky enough to have found a small town that gives me a lot of what I look for in a city.  My town is something of an artists' colony-- there are probably a hundred people that live in town that make a living as an artist.  We have an old vaudeville theater that has been restored and hosts live music, plays, a film festival, and other events.  The town is completely walkable.  And it's a very accepting community (no issues with my interracial relationship, for example).

A few times a year I still feel the need to get to the big city, but between those trips and what my town offers, I'm very happy.  And the cost of living can't be beat.

My biggest issue with my town is the fragility of the situation.  A lot of the local prosperity depends on a single employer, an employer whose future is not completely clear.  A nice neighborhood in a city would not have the same lack-of-diversification risk.  Another downside (for me) is that the city is pretty culturally homogeneous (i.e. white, northern European background). 

Any other "city people" who have managed to find a small town that works for them?  How about "small town" people in the city, were you able to find a neighborhood that gives you a lot of what you're looking for?

[big_slacker]

I grew up in a city and moved to a small town. But the small town had ski resorts and large hotel/casinos, so a tourist town. I think this was pretty ideal since it meant even though the town was 8 miles end to end there are a ton of businesses and enough traffic to support them. So you don't get the boring sleepy small town thing.

I loved it. Loved the midweek slowness, loved the lack of traffic and lack of too many people everywhere. I also loved the community. Since everyone knows everyone people are I think a lot more willing to get together, talk, help each other out, etc.

My wife is a city girl however, she likes people *NOT* knowing her business, being anonymous. She likes that people are generally better educated in the city and usually have more going on in their lives. She also likes the things you talk about, walking around to a little cafe, festivals, free concerts in the park, museums, kid play zones and so on. Also better schools for the kiddos.

Our compromise has been a burb that is close enough to the big city (we're 10 minutes from our small city downtown and 30 minutes from downtown Seattle) but on the OUTSKIRTS of that burb with lakes, forest and 10-15 minutes to the mountains for me to feel right.

For your situation I'd look for a small town with a nice little downtown 'main street' type of area so you can get that nice walkable feel and that is close enough to a big city that you can drive to it when you feel the need.

[rothwem]

I get this.  I'm a "big town" person, having grown up in the DC metro area.  I live in Raleigh now, but have lived in two small towns ~45 min outside and around the Raleigh metro area, and a lot of it comes down to political ideology for me.  One town I lived in was hyper conservative, and it was awful.  The small town I lived in that had a more hippy feel was much better, even if I smelled pot smoke every now and then on the local hiking trails.  At least there were hiking trails!

I eventually moved back to Raleigh, and I like it, but I'm glad I experienced a small town that wasn't as awful as the first one. 

[lthenderson]

2500 in population is a city in my neck of the woods. Our county seat doesn't have more than a 1000 people!

[zoltani]

I do not have answers for you, I am in a big city of about 200k, but often think of moving to somewhere smaller.

Do you mind if I ask in what small town it is you?

[MayDay]

We are similar.  Small town of maybe 8ooo people ~30 min from a medium city. 

We are looking to leave but may stay due to jobs being good here- but like you it is one employer.  They are doing well for now but who knows what 10 years will bring, or heck H could get layed off tomorrow if his particular department gets cut.

Our ideal is a college town of 50-150k.  Small enough to be super walkable/bikeable, but tons of diversity, culture, etc.  Typically excellent schools and LCOL. 

Unfortunately most jobs in places like that are with the University, and so far we haven't succeeded in getting jobs in those types of towns. 

[Lagom]

I am constantly going back and forth on this. I definitely would not be cut out for true small town living (say <10k people 30 minutes+ from a larger city), but I could see the appeal of other arrangements. I think I would still prefer to be less than an hour from a major city, but that seems to cut down quite a lot on the options if the goal is to also have a feeling of separation (i.e. not just live at one end of a 30 mile swath of suburbia). One compromise I've considered is either a medium sized college town or a smaller town within a short drive of a college town. I think in that scenario I would be OK living more like 2-3 hours from a major city, although I would still worry about getting bored.

I currently live in the SF Bay Area and must admit to be spoiled with just how many amazing (and varied) adventures I can have within an hour's drive of my house.

[dougules]

I'm in a medium size "city," more a collection of sprawl.  I'd really love to move to a major city post-FIRE.  I love having everything right there and having so much variety.  I love being able to walk down the street and not be the only person who's not speeding through in a metal box. 

The problem is how expensive it is.   Obviously that's a sign there are plenty of people like me.  Demand is through the roof for urban living, but supply just hasn't kept up.  Cities aren't inherently expensive, though.  You have less land, less road, less sidewalk, less power distribution, etc. per person in a city, so it should be cheaper.  You don't need to own a car in a city, so that's a huge expense gone.  It's just that it's hard to go back and turn sprawl into real city. 

We spent most of our Peru vacation last year in Lima, and it was great.  Big cities in Latin America really don't get much love, but they are exciting when you get past the grime.  They're also cheap when you have dollars.  Post-FIRE destination?  We shall see. 

[NV Teacher]

Grew up on a farm outside of a small town.  Spent a little over ten years in Vegas teaching.  Back to a small town and loving it.  Good thing there are lots of options so that people can find their niche.

[dougules]

But for myself, I'd rather live in a studio apt in.the heart of a city than a big rural spread with several.acres (So.Much.Work.). 

Yes yes yes.  We have 0.4 acres, and it's a PITA.  I can't imagine having several acres like some of my coworkers.  I'm actually happy we're in a drought because I don't have to mow.  And I'm constantly chopping down little trees and crap.  Then we have to clean up limbs that our trees drop.  Some people love being out in the yard, but I just see it as a big pointless responsibility.  Plus I think about how I'm just wasting land that could be used better in some other way.  There really aren't many other options in the area since the inane zoning laws here mandate big lawns. 

[Watchmaker]

ETA as mentioned above by another poster, housing costs in cities (especially big cities) generally aren't affordable compared to rural areas or small cities. But for myself, I'd rather live in a studio apt in.the heart of a city than a big rural spread with several.acres (So.Much.Work.). Ideally a small house/cabin on a tiny lot if in a small more affordable city or resort town.

I agree that I don't want a big house or big yard.  Unfortunately I figured that out after I already had them.  I'm planning a move to a building downtown (in the same small city) which has 2 apartments and a storefront.  And no yard!  That's how I'd live a big city, I don't see why I should do anything different here, just because I can afford to. 

Of course, most small towns in the US don't have a "downtown" to live in. 

[Watchmaker]

Do you mind if I ask in what small town it is you?

I kind of don't want to say, as I've given out some fairly person information on this site, and that would narrow me down to 1 in 2500 people.  :)

How about this, I live in a town much like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanesboro,_Minnesota

but a bit bigger.

[Noodle]

I grew up in a small town and overall enjoyed it. Since going out on my own I've lived in a medium-sized city (definite city feel/city issues, but not on the list of major metropolises), a ca. 10000 community, and two really large cities. I don't mind city living, but I really enjoyed the small town. It housed a major university medical facility, so the people who had come from out of town to work there sort of "leavened" the folks who had been there for generations (it was not an ultra-conservative area anyhow--more moderate tilting conservative). I get anxious about big-city/highway driving so I loved being able to get around more easily--it would have been pretty bike-friendly too, but it was before recreational biking got big. The three big issues I see in small towns are a) limited employment prospects, b) limited medical care, and c) air travel gets expensive if you are using a regional airport, or you have to drive to a big city.  Issue A was actually what ended that particular episode--I got laid off and there was absolutely nowhere in driving distance that needed my specialized skills. I didn't have family ties or anything, so I decided I would rather move than patch together work I wasn't as well matched to. When I retire I am moving (the climate here is miserable and I am concerned about being in a car-centric city as I age, although I guess that could change depending on how fast self-driving cars come along) and I am pondering whether to go back to a smaller-city situation.

[gggggg]

I'm ok in a small town, as long as it's pretty close to the city. I don't want to live in the city (expense, people everywhere you turn), but I also don't want to live in BFE, with no access to much without driving an hour or more. I could care less about the political climate, as I can find something to do or talk about with most folks.

[SilveradoBojangles]

I've been dealing with this debate as we try and figure out where we are going to end up next. I love cities -- the anonymity, the walkability, the diversity, the good food, museums, etc. But I also want a bit of space - I love to garden, and would love to have a big yard with some fruit trees, maybe even some chickens (though we'd have to stop traveling so much). I've finally gotten to the point where I feel that if I had access to interesting big cities a few times a year I could get my fill of shows and museum exhibits and new/interesting foods to try. But I don't want to have to drive everywhere. My husband want's even more space - his ideal is not being able to see his neighbors. But he still wants to be able to bike to work. Does this exist anywhere?

[Syonyk]

I've finally gotten to the point where I feel that if I had access to interesting big cities a few times a year I could get my fill of shows and museum exhibits and new/interesting foods to try.

Big cities are really fun to visit for a few days during the nice weather, and then you can leave the hellhole and go back to somewhere nice to live. :)

But I don't want to have to drive everywhere. My husband want's even more space - his ideal is not being able to see his neighbors. But he still wants to be able to bike to work. Does this exist anywhere?

Electric bikes give you a good bit more range and capacity.  I'm in rural farm country, 4 miles to the nearest small town, 15 miles up into a bigger town, and I ebike around without too much trouble, though a lot of the time I'm still driving because I'm hauling more than I can fit on an ebike (yes, I accept that in theory, I could haul a few thousand pounds of stuff on a bike trailer over the course of several trips, and, no, I'm not going to, because I'll just take my truck).

As far as not being able to see people and biking to work, that's a challenge best solved by working from home on a few acres. :)  Set up a shop/office/etc on the other corner of the property from the house, bike to it.  Problem solved!

[Tom Bri]

I grew up on the farm (6 miles to nearest small town), and after high school moved to college, medium-sized city, then to work in rural 3rd world, and then to work in giant Japanese city. Lived 15 years in the concrete jungle, and it got to be a real drag. I moved back to a small town, pop 3000, near my home town, and my only regret is that we didn't buy a rural property instead of in town.

I like small towns, more accepting people, less crime/violence, and since every small town has a theater or playhouse, if you want that sort of thing, it is here, along with summer concerts and other events. We don't get the famous bands or big-city caliber acting talent, but it's fun. And the big city is a one hour drive away, on the very very rare occasion that we need it.

I have to ask big-city folk, how often do you actually attend a major play or concert? Even when I was in the city, I rarely did. I did enjoy the restaurants, but now have limited interest. I'd like a few good ethnic restaurants (we have Swedish, Mex and Chinese here in town, with rather poor versions of Thai and Indian within a 30-min drive.)

I also have to laugh at some of the comments above with the somewhat breathless-sounding 'Oh no, the town is full of white people' vibe. I've lived and travelled around the world. White people are not so bad.

[TheInsuranceMan]

Like the post by Tom Bri below, I grew up in a very rural area, moved to a town of 25k for college, and then made the move to Des Moines, which has an approximate population of 600k, including the metro area.  I did that for 5 years, and have never been happier since we moved BACK to our rural area.  First, to an acreage that was 3.35 acres, with enough lawn to keep me mowing for 2.5-3 hours, depending on how nice I wanted it to look.  From there, we moved back to my home town, which has a staggering population for 400, including 0 convenience stores, 0 clinics, 0 stop lights, and 0 chain-anythings. 

It's glorious, but I understand that everyone has their own mindset.  For me, if I got stuck in a hipster city, I'd probably have a nervous breakdown. 

Now, we do have quite a bit of things to do in our area, if you like county fairs, livestock, and country concerts.  It's about 45 minutes to the nearest Walmart, and 25 minutes to the nearest stop light, McDonald's, and hospital.  I couldn't ask for anything better, it just fits us.

[dougules]

I've finally gotten to the point where I feel that if I had access to interesting big cities a few times a year I could get my fill of shows and museum exhibits and new/interesting foods to try.

Big cities are really fun to visit for a few days during the nice weather, and then you can leave the hellhole and go back to somewhere nice to live. :)

Big cities The boondocks are really fun to visit for a few days during the nice weather, and then you can leave the hellhole and go back to somewhere nice to live. :)

[Syonyk]

Now, we do have quite a bit of things to do in our area, if you like county fairs, livestock, and country concerts.  It's about 45 minutes to the nearest Walmart, and 25 minutes to the nearest stop light, McDonald's, and hospital.  I couldn't ask for anything better, it just fits us.

Very nice!

I'm... about 10 minutes to the nearest stop light.

It's fun to take people from city areas into nice rural locations and watch them sort of panic about the concept of animals, like, right THERE.  And dirt roads.  And things that could best be described as Jeep trails.

[marble_faun]

This is an important question!

My spouse and I have lived in East Coast cities our whole lives. 

I thought I might prefer a rural area.  Escape the crowds and humidity. Find a secluded property somewhere out west where we wouldn't hear highway sounds all the time.  Looking at the cost of living in various places, it seemed like somewhere like South Dakota or Wyoming might be a good bet.  (And I love the Pacific Northwest!)

But then I had occasion to actually spend some time out in the sticks.  I was put off by the fact that cars seemed to be mandatory.  The country roads did not have sidewalks, making it difficult to get anywhere on foot even if you lived close to work. And these were quasi-highway, winding roads -- I would not feel comfortable biking on them either. (Though I know some mustachians are more hardcore about that.)  I'm fine driving occasionally -- but I don't want to have to rely on a car for all travel.

My spouse is more attached to city living and the cultural amenities that come with it.  Plus, as we get older, it becomes harder to make new friends when we relocate.  We could head off to a cabin in Wyoming and then become really, really lonely and isolated.

Now we're thinking of moving to a smaller city or a small town that has access to a larger city via public transport.  This can't just be a sprawl-area -- it needs to be a real town with its own character, history, downtown central area, etc.   Keeping the $$$ low would be a challenge in our region of the country.  I'm still hoping to head West one day!

[dougules]

An observation.  Cities tend to be a lot better for people who are unconventional.  Small towns tend to be a bit isolating for anybody that doesn't fit the mold.  Even if people are accepting, just sheer numbers make it easier to find somebody to connect with in a larger city. 

[Classical_Liberal]

I grew up & lived in a city of at least 1 million plus my whole life. I have been living rural for the past couple of years.  I'm doing it for one reason, FIRE.  LCOL coupled with higher traveling pay.  I'm not going to lie, it kind of sucks at times. I actually had a bit of a depression last winter when I was in a town of about 3000 with the closest "city" of about 150K two hours away.  At the moment, I'm in a little bigger town and it has helped.  My advice, for whats its worth.

• Continue to reinforce to yourself what is good about rural living.  There is a lot of good...Things like no traffic, no crime, no long lines, slower lifestyle, anything else about city life that truly annoys you that you dont have to put up with.
• Personally, I really enjoy learning new things, particularly things that make me self sufficient.  If you are the same, consider asking some of the locals to teach you or offer them help.  I've learned to ride a horse, shoot a gun, learned about ranching and crop farming, etc.  Fun stuff and good to know!
• There is much more nature near rural areas.  Streams, hills, wooded areas for all sorts of outdoor activities.  If there is too much private land, ask the farmer or rancher, since you're a local they will probably let you use it for camping, or hiking.
• Learn to like country music!  There is almost always live music nearby

In the end, I'm pretty sure I'll end up back in a city.

[nancyjnelson]

I lived in medium/large cities while working, but moved to a small town in Wisconsin when I FIREd three years ago.  It wasn't because I wanted to be in a small town; I chose Wisconsin to ensure in-state college tuition for my kid, and chose the community because the high school offered Japanese classes (only about half a dozen in the state that do so).  Overall it has been fine (eye-opening for my kid, who had previously lived in an international, middle-class bubble), but it has been difficult to get to make friends since I'm an outsider - I didn't go to school with them, our mothers weren't friends, our siblings don't work at the same place, etc.  Now that my daughter is off to college, I will be downsizing and looking for a different area.  My priorities? - a larger community with a good airport, a bookstore within a 15 minute drive, and a coffee shop (or two).  Bike lanes would be a bonus.

[Cranky]

I always lived in big(ish) cities before we moved here, and we always lived in the city, not in the suburbs, because I don't drive.

So, it took some adjusting over the years, but you know... it's fine. You do get to know people. There is stuff to do. It really is nice to not have a load of traffic all the time.

The realization that we could go to NYC for a weekend anytime we wanted made all the difference, because actually, I don't want to do that. If I lived in Manhattan, I'd do pretty much the same things I do right now.

[Dollar Slice]

I have to ask big-city folk, how often do you actually attend a major play or concert? Even when I was in the city, I rarely did.

Why do you think it has to be a "major" play or concert? :-) The appeal to me of city living is that the city can support interesting and unique niche culture. NYC has the best of the best in all kinds of experimental and avant garde art, theater, music, etc. I don't live here because Billy Joel plays concerts for a month straight across the street from my office, or because I can go see the Lion King any time I feel like it. That stuff is for tourists and people from New Jersey. ;-)  Plus it costs a fortune! I go out almost constantly to see all kinds of unique little performances in unique little spaces - stuff you can't do or see anywhere else. The cultural opportunities in NYC are absolutely incredible to me. But you have to actually care about culture and involve yourself for it to be worthwhile. I know a ton of people that live here and never do a damn thing that's the least bit interesting. Such a wasted opportunity. 

But as for me, you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to live in a small town. ;-)

[Syonyk]

I think the point is, a lot of people say the amazing thing about big cities is all the Things you can do.  I describe it as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money," though city-types inform me that what I'm doing wrong is sitting in traffic instead of of taking public transit.

But, ask when people last did these Amazing Things (other than ordering delivery), and you frequently get blank stares.

But as for me, you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to live in a small town. ;-)

That's fine.  If everyone wanted to live there, they'd be an urban hellhole! :D

[Dollar Slice]

But, ask when people last did these Amazing Things (other than ordering delivery), and you frequently get blank stares.

I go out and do interesting things 100+ nights a year. So, yeah. Walking the walk, talking the talk. :-)  Most of my friends are people I meet when I'm out and about doing cool stuff, and all of them are enthusiastic about going out and seeing/doing/experiencing what NYC has to offer. It's a great community if you like that sort of thing.

There are plenty of lame people who sit at home, though.

[Metric Mouse]

I think I'd be pretty unhappy in the "typical" small town.  Too quiet, too conservative.  But I'm lucky enough to have found a small town that gives me a lot of what I look for in a city.  My town is something of an artists' colony-- there are probably a hundred people that live in town that make a living as an artist.  We have an old vaudeville theater that has been restored and hosts live music, plays, a film festival, and other events.  The town is completely walkable.  And it's a very accepting community (no issues with my interracial relationship, for example).

This is what I love about small towns. It's not that hard to find something that's cheap, friendly and full of interesting people.  3k is a bit small for my tastes, but 30k is great. It's so fantastic on my morning motorcycle rides to see a half-dozen cars in the ten miles I cruise. Smaller cities are not for everyone, but can be great when you're FIRED and don't have to worry about the employment sector, which can be the biggest downside that would actually affect quality of life, in my experience.

[Cranky]

Small towns are all about "niche culture", because they are too small to support something like Broadway. LOL

I could go to see a play every weekend here - we have a huge theatre community and numerous playhouses. We're filthy with starving artists, too.

[Dollar Slice]

Small towns are all about "niche culture", because they are too small to support something like Broadway. LOL

I could go to see a play every weekend here - we have a huge theatre community and numerous playhouses. We're filthy with starving artists, too.

I feel like any place with "numerous playhouses" isn't something I'd consider a 'small town'... where do you live, if you don't mind saying? Growing up I lived in a town of ~1500 and a town of ~25000 and I would not consider the 25,000 pop. town to be small-town living.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by "niche culture," though. I mean art that is obscure or unusual enough - unpopular enough, to put it bluntly - that it needs a population of a million or more people to scrape up a viable audience, because maybe only 1 in 5,000 people is interested in that sort of art. That's the stuff that can't survive in smaller towns. All kinds of people that make experimental art move to major cities for that reason, and the biggest cities end up with incredible concentrations of world-beating talent in a zillion weird little niches. And when you get large concentrations of talent in one place, all kinds of interesting things happen.

Institutions like Broadway and the Metropolitan Museum and the New York Ballet can't survive in small towns because they're hugely expensive to run and need a constant stream of lots of people (as well as wealthy philanthropists throwing money at them). That's a different issue.

[Altons Bobs]

I grew up in the city of 1.5mil people, now I live in a small town of 4,000+ people. I much prefer this small town. It's next to a good size city of 200k+ people and close to a big metroplex of 6.6mil people. It's quieter here, less polluted. Not walkable, you have to drive everywhere. I see a lot of retirees in this city, so it's more laid back, not busy and crowded like a big city, but it's close enough to a city that you can get anything you want with a short drive.

[Watchmaker]

I also have to laugh at some of the comments above with the somewhat breathless-sounding 'Oh no, the town is full of white people' vibe. I've lived and travelled around the world. White people are not so bad.

Ha!  I think you're partially referring to me.  I should clarify I'm the white half of my relationship.  And I like white people plenty.  I just also enjoy variety, and have seen how homogeneous populations can be uncomfortable for outsiders.

Everyone has been very polite on this thread, but can I ask that we keep the big cities suck/small towns are for hicks jokes out of it.  I'd like to constructively discuss how each of us can find the right environment for ourselves.

[Kaminoge]

I grew up in rural areas and always thought I was a "small town" kind of girl. But due to work and other preferences I've ended up living in some of the world's biggest cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo). At some point I finally realised that actually I'd probably go nuts in a small town, thinking I wanted to live in one was just some hangover from the person I thought I was when I was 15.

Right now I'm living in a city of about 1.5 million and I think it's perfect for me. Decent choice of places to eat and food to buy. Occasional community events (eg organised runs) that suit me. I'm one of those people who lots of arts/cultural stuff is totally wasted on because honestly I prefer to hang out at home. And the beauty of a small city is that I can cycle anywhere within the city or if I jump in the car I can be hiking the local mountain in 20 minutes or hitting the ski slopes in an hour. After moving from Tokyo where it took FOREVER to get out of the city I relish that.

[Cranky]

Small towns are all about "niche culture", because they are too small to support something like Broadway. LOL

I could go to see a play every weekend here - we have a huge theatre community and numerous playhouses. We're filthy with starving artists, too.

I feel like any place with "numerous playhouses" isn't something I'd consider a 'small town'... where do you live, if you don't mind saying? Growing up I lived in a town of ~1500 and a town of ~25000 and I would not consider the 25,000 pop. town to be small-town living.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by "niche culture," though. I mean art that is obscure or unusual enough - unpopular enough, to put it bluntly - that it needs a population of a million or more people to scrape up a viable audience, because maybe only 1 in 5,000 people is interested in that sort of art. That's the stuff that can't survive in smaller towns. All kinds of people that make experimental art move to major cities for that reason, and the biggest cities end up with incredible concentrations of world-beating talent in a zillion weird little niches. And when you get large concentrations of talent in one place, all kinds of interesting things happen.

Institutions like Broadway and the Metropolitan Museum and the New York Ballet can't survive in small towns because they're hugely expensive to run and need a constant stream of lots of people (as well as wealthy philanthropists throwing money at them). That's a different issue.

Well, I don't live in a country village, but on the outskirts of a shrinking rustbelt city. I think it's a small town because of the way that it works when everybody knows everybody, and it's odd not to be "from here".

I disagree on the "niche art", though. If you are going to make art that won't make you a living, you might as well live someplace cheap. And it's not like it used to be, pre-internet, where if you didn't live in Manhattan there was no way to show your stuff or talk to people. The world is a smaller place than it used to be, in that sense.

[big_slacker]

I think the point is, a lot of people say the amazing thing about big cities is all the Things you can do.  I describe it as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money," though city-types inform me that what I'm doing wrong is sitting in traffic instead of of taking public transit.

But, ask when people last did these Amazing Things (other than ordering delivery), and you frequently get blank stares.

There is a trap to be avoided with cities for sure. If you spend so much time, money and energy to just support living there that you never get to experience the fun parts then you've failed at lifestyle design. That isn't the city's fault though, that's your fault. :D

[dougules]

I think the point is, a lot of people say the amazing thing about big cities is all the Things you can do.  I describe it as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money," though city-types inform me that what I'm doing wrong is sitting in traffic instead of of taking public transit.

But, ask when people last did these Amazing Things (other than ordering delivery), and you frequently get blank stares.

The last time I went to New York, there was a Chinese guy playing erhu on the subway platform.  Not only did I not have to sit in traffic, but I got a concert complimentary with purchase of transit pass.  It's all the free little unexpected things like that are worth more than broadway shows to a lot of people.

I also have to laugh at some of the comments above with the somewhat breathless-sounding 'Oh no, the town is full of white people' vibe. I've lived and travelled around the world. White people are not so bad.

Ha!  I think you're partially referring to me.  I should clarify I'm the white half of my relationship.  And I like white people plenty.  I just also enjoy variety, and have seen how homogeneous population can be uncomfortable for outsiders.

My dad's home town is majority–minority.  It's not just about race.  A gay agnostic liberal nerd would not fit in at all there.  And even in small towns where there are all types, anybody with specialized interests is going to have a hard time finding somebody else to share those with.  It's just sheer numbers. 

I disagree on the "niche art", though. If you are going to make art that won't make you a living, you might as well live someplace cheap. And it's not like it used to be, pre-internet, where if you didn't live in Manhattan there was no way to show your stuff or talk to people. The world is a smaller place than it used to be, in that sense.

The internet has definitely been great for people with niche interests, but it's still not the same as being able to interact face to face with other people who have those interests.

There is a trap to be avoided with cities for sure. If you spend so much time, money and energy to just support living there that you never get to experience the fun parts then you've failed at lifestyle design. That isn't the city's fault though, that's your fault. :D

Cities aren't inherently expensive.  Urban living takes a lot fewer resources.  It's just that as the world urbanizes supply can't keep up with rapidly growing demand.  Also, if it's expensive, it means there are plenty of people who think it's worth it. 

[PhillyWill]

I think the point is, a lot of people say the amazing thing about big cities is all the Things you can do.  I describe it as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money," though city-types inform me that what I'm doing wrong is sitting in traffic instead of of taking public transit.

I think it's tougher to enjoy a big city when you're just visiting. Between the driving/parking, the (potential) food expenses and the need to "make the most of your visit," it can make urban life seem more stressful than it is. It's an entirely different experience to live there. Also bear in mind that if you only visit tourist areas then you're only going to see a tiny slice of what any given town has going for it. Many of the coolest things to do in my town are free as long as you don't insist on buying the tee shirt.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

I grew up on a small farm 5 miles outside of a small town of <1,000 people. Currently, I live on a coastal tourist town of about 12,000, and we love it here. In between, I've lived everywhere from Rio de Janeiro to a tiny forgotten shithole of a town in south Mississippi.

When I think about the places I've enjoyed the most, a few similar themes pop up: I prefer cities/towns where the population is more educated. I prefer places that invest generously in their public schools, parks, sidewalks, and other infrastructure. I prefer to live around people who care about the appearance of homes and public spaces (I speak of neatness, not grandiosity). And perhaps most importantly, I prefer places with beautiful scenery and ample opportunities for outdoor recreation. That about takes care of the "likes".

Now for the dislikes. For the most part, I don't give a crap about modern culture. (I do however, like history and historical culture). Modern art is stupid and pointless. I dislike most live music. I dislike crowds. I hate traffic. Bottom line: When I pick up a National Geographic, I ignore all of the modern cultural fluff and dive straight in to the remote vistas, weird wildlife, and anything about space.

Boil it down, and it turns out that I'm most attracted to small-to-medium college towns and quirky tourist towns. Big enough that they have a reasonable budget for maintaining appealing public spaces (as well as the propensity to do so) but not so big that crowds and traffic become overwhelming. And it has to be near mountains/coastline/lakes/rivers/some sort of appealing natural areas.

[dougules]

I grew up on a small farm 5 miles outside of a small town of <1,000 people. Currently, I live on a coastal tourist town of about 12,000, and we love it here. In between, I've lived everywhere from Rio de Janeiro to a tiny forgotten shithole of a town in south Mississippi.

When I think about the places I've enjoyed the most, a few similar themes pop up: I prefer cities/towns where the population is more educated. I prefer places that invest generously in their public schools, parks, sidewalks, and other infrastructure. I prefer to live around people who care about the appearance of homes and public spaces (I speak of neatness, not grandiosity). And perhaps most importantly, I prefer places with beautiful scenery and ample opportunities for outdoor recreation. That about takes care of the "likes".

Now for the dislikes. For the most part, I don't give a crap about modern culture. (I do however, like history and historical culture). Modern art is stupid and pointless. I dislike most live music. I dislike crowds. I hate traffic. Bottom line: When I pick up a National Geographic, I ignore all of the modern cultural fluff and dive straight in to the remote vistas, weird wildlife, and anything about space.

Boil it down, and it turns out that I'm most attracted to small-to-medium college towns and quirky tourist towns. Big enough that they have a reasonable budget for maintaining appealing public spaces (as well as the propensity to do so) but not so big that crowds and traffic become overwhelming. And it has to be near mountains/coastline/lakes/rivers/some sort of appealing natural areas.

The takeaway here is that people all really do like completely different things.  My dad would love to move back to his tiny forgotten shithole of a hometown in south Mississippi if there were any way he could convince my mom.  On the other hand I'm determined to move back somewhere with more than a million people.  Maybe you've seen the whole world, but that was only through your own eyes.   

[Mtngrl]

I do think small towns can have very different personalities, depending on what part of the country you are in. I have lived in small, rural places all my life. Some of them are very insular and cliquish, with limited opportunities. These tended to be in areas that were depressed economically.

I now live in a rural county with only two towns and a county-wide population of 8,000 people in the mountains of western Colorado. Yet it is a very vibrant community with good restaurants, a thriving arts scene, and live music (and not just country) several nights a week. It's a tourist economy and those tourists help support all of the above. The population is pretty diverse (though yes, mostly white) and my husband and I were talking this morning about how many people we have gotten to know -- and how many different things we're involved in -- much moreso when we lived in larger towns and cities.

Yes, we drive more and don't have the city vibe that I know many people enjoy. But we're not stuck in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do either.

[Tom Bri]

I also have to laugh at some of the comments above with the somewhat breathless-sounding 'Oh no, the town is full of white people' vibe. I've lived and travelled around the world. White people are not so bad.

Ha!  I think you're partially referring to me.  I should clarify I'm the white half of my relationship.  And I like white people plenty.  I just also enjoy variety, and have seen how homogeneous population can be uncomfortable for outsiders.

Everyone has been very polite on this thread, but can I ask that we keep the big cities suck/small towns are for hicks jokes out of it.  I'd like to constructively discuss how each of us can find the right environment for ourselves.

Maybe maybe! I'm also the 'white half' in my marriage. My wife was a bit leary of moving to small town midwest, but it turned out Okay. Less openly racist than HER home town where we lived previously. This town is mainly white, with a dozen or so Asian and Black and Hispanic families mixed in.
I''d like a more rural setting, but she would like a bigger city. Small town is a compromise.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

I'm not really sure what I am.

I love

• Energy and Vibrancy of cities
• Architecture - I take loads of pics of old buildings. Love them.
• Culture and Arts - do the theatre twice a week
• Good places to run - both urban and rural
• Rambles in the country, hillwalking and country views
• Liberal open minded people - in my hometown they think I'm strange for not being married or having kids
• Having a garden to grow veg and have chickens
• Superfast internet
• Change - I get the urge to shake things up every so often

I hate

• Conservative social politics, where I live now people are on the racist side of Brexity
• Not having a quiet space available
• Nosy neighbours - I could quite easily live alone in a hamlet with no-one miles around

Live in the London 'burbs at the moment, which satisfies most of my cravings. However, longer term when I FIRE, I don't know where I want to live. I might be nomadic for a while and try out different areas. I want to do all the Munro's, so it makes sense to move to Scotland for that...

[kimmarg]

I grew up in a town of 1100 and moved to a huge city for University. I wanted public transit. There were more people in my freshman dorm than my hometown and it took me about a semester to make it over 6 blocks from campus. 15 years later I think I have a pretty good compromise. I'm living in a suburb of 12,000 next to a city of 75,000 about 1.5 hours from my hometown. I have a 1 acre yard with berries, a garden and 6 beehives. I still hate to drive and wish I didn't have to, but I couldn't have the garden/yard/bees in an urban area. 

For me the cultural things in a city are a waste. I haven't been to the huge art museum in the city I lived in for college, grad school or my first job. I rarely go to concerts (maybe once a year). I live near a super foody city but we almost never go out to eat because of $$ (when we do grabbing pizza from the end of the road is more likely) For the frequency I use them I don't mind driving into a city for an event and then living rural.

[Watchmaker]

The "there's more to do in cities" argument is interesting to me.  I agree, but does that mean I have to live in (or even near) a city to take advantage of that?  I live more than 3 hours from a major city (1 million+ pop), but this year I've already gone to that city 4 times for cultural events unavailable locally (world class music + professional sports).  Combined that with the things I do have access to out here and I am busy enough.  Would I gain anything by actually living in that city?

Someone above mentioned that city life actually uses less resources (primarily because of public transport/biking/walking and smaller average homes)--and it's only the demand outstripping the supply that makes city living more expensive.  The facts support that, but my living situation could be quite similar in FIRE in my small town (walk everywhere + smaller house).

And then there's driverless cars, a technology that could revolutionize transport in, and in and out of, cities.  How will that affect our choices?  If I could sleep on the way there and back, a trip to the city would have much less "cost" to me. 

[mizzourah2006]

I spent essentially my entire life in 3 different 2 million + metro areas. Recently moved to a metro with about 500k and I love it. Much less traffic, much cheaper COL and there is more to do than I think most people would think. We have a world class art museum several great downtown areas as the metro is essentially a merging of 4 smaller towns with a great and diverse selection of restaurants, which is likely because we have a very large ethnic population. The only thing I miss is the professional sports. One of the 4 towns is a large college town, so we get SEC caliber athletics, but the only professional sport we have is AA baseball.

[bacchi]

And then there's driverless cars, a technology that could revolutionize transport in, and in and out of, cities.  How will that affect our choices?  If I could sleep on the way there and back, a trip to the city would have much less "cost" to me.

It would also mean that commute traffic would be mostly painless. That hour sitting in traffic? It's a lot less stressful when you're reading the news or playing a game in your car.

A city of fewer than a ~500,000, and not growing rapidly, is a pretty good size.

[Watchmaker]

My experience with small and mid-sized cities (think 50k -500k) is that they don't offer me enough of the things I like about big cities (e.g. highest caliber arts, large range of cultures, unique dining experiences, public transport) or the things I like about (my) small town.  For me, I want a mega city, or I'm happy with my 2500 pop town.  The middle ground isn't satisfying to me.

[Lagom]

My experience with small and mid-sized cities (think 50k -500k) is that they don't offer me enough of the things I like about big cities (e.g. highest caliber arts, large range of cultures, unique dining experiences, public transport) or the things I like about (my) small town.  For me, I want a mega city, or I'm happy with my 2500 pop town.  The middle ground isn't satisfying to me.

Depends on what kind of mid-sized city, I think. College towns usually have all of those things.

[Watchmaker]

Depends on what kind of mid-sized city, I think. College towns usually have all of those things.

Not really, in my experience.  I've lived in and near a handful of typical college towns, and while they do often have great restaurants and plenty of interesting art, what I'm talking about is access to the highest levels of these things that only the most vibrant cities can support.

Let's take Chicago and Urbana IL, for example (a big city and a college town I'm familiar with).  Urbana has plenty of nice restaurants.  Chicago has Alinea.  Urbana has a great music school and a lot of excellent classical music performances.  Chicago has the Lyric.  Urbana gets nationally touring theater shows.  Chicago has Steppenwolf, Second City & iO.  The university in Urbana has a good art museum.  Chicago has the Art Institute (which happens to house my favorite painting in the world).