Poll

Do you have children, and if so, how old are they?

I have no children
I have 1-2 children, ages 10 and under
I have 3-4 children, ages 10 and under
1 have 5 or more children, ages 10 and under
I have 1-2 children, ages 18 and under
I have 3-4 children, ages 18 and under
I have 5 or more children, ages 18 and under
I have some children under the age of 18 and some over the age of 18
All of my children are over the age of 18, but I still support them financially to some extent
All of my children are over the age of 18 and are on their own financially

Author Topic: Children  (Read 21461 times)

Seppie

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Children
« on: November 26, 2013, 10:08:36 PM »
Hi, I'm Seppie.  I've spent the last couple of months reading the blog and the forum (found MMM through YNAB.) 

When my children were smaller, I absolutely agreed with MMM that kids don't have to be expensive.  I used cloth diapers, breastfed, my kids got hand-me-down clothes and toys, most activities we did were free or cheap.  I supported a family of 4 on less than $15,000/year, with no sense of deprivation (we certainly didn't save much, but that was more because of my ex's spending patterns than because it wasn't possible on that income with two small children.)  I continued to live very well as a single mom on a relatively small income.  Eventually I married a guy who also has two kids. 

So we are now raising four kids, ages 11-almost 16, and we spend what seems like an insane amount of money.  In part, this is due to lifestyle creep - there are definitely areas where we can cut spending!  But in general, we are very aware of aligning spending with our values and don't live extravagantly.  My car has over 236,000 miles on it and my husband's car is approaching 190,000 miles.  We buy clothes at thrift stores whenever we can (enough so that when I took my 15-year-old son to JC Penney a couple of weeks ago, he said, "I hate shopping at stores like this.  It makes me feel like an arrogant prick...ooh, I'm a rich kid, please wait on me...")

But as I was buying 2 1/2 pounds of turkey - enough to make sandwiches for my kids for 3 days - I found myself reminiscing about the years when I could buy 1/4 pound and it would last a week.  I am vegetarian, so our dinners rarely if ever have meat, but the teenage boys seem to crave protein the way I did when I was pregnant.  Yes, they can (and do) eat beans and other cheaper sources, but the sheer quantity of food the kids consume makes it feel impossible to even approach the dollar amounts that I see other people talking about for grocery bills.  My oldest son grew 8 inches in 6 months.  During that time, he literally ate from the minute he got home from school until the minute he went to bed at night.  He is now 5'11 and weighs 125 pounds, so he is certainly not overeating!  The next oldest seems to be hitting that puberty growth spurt.  Yesterday he ate three huge helpings of casserole for dinner, then went to check the fridge to see what else he could have.  I used to be able to make one pan of enchiladas and have leftover enchiladas for lunch all week.  I made a pan of enchiladas tonight, and it is gone - the boys are still hungry.

Then there are activities.  We aren't one of those crazy families whose kids are shuttled from expensive activity to expensive activity.  One of our kids takes one dance class a week, another participates in debate through school, and the other two take piano lessons once a week.  So if we just had one, the costs would be pretty reasonable.  However, with 4 kids, that adds up to around $200/month.

We tend to spend more on experiences than on things, and while we do many things (camping, bike riding, board games, cops and robbers at the park) together that cost little or no money, we also prioritize family travel.  We could definitely save a ton of money by not taking family vacations, or choosing not do do things like go to Water World (we do this once every summer, and it costs us around $200).  But I choose to do them now, knowing that our kids won't be with us that much longer - these are the years that they will look back on when they think about what it was like to grow up as part of our family, and I want them to have lots of good memories.  Some of these memories save money (they can complain when they are older about how I FORCED them to walk home from school if it was over 40 degrees, but I think they will be glad I did!) but most cost money.

As I read the mini-mustache forum, I get the sense that many people here have young kids, if they have kids at all.  I'm curious if this is true. My experience, as briefly outlined above, is that young kids are cheap, teenagers are expensive.  I wonder if others have found this as well.

kkbmustang

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Re: Children
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 10:30:41 PM »
I voted for 1-2 children under 10 because that seemed closer than the alternatives, but it's not quite right. I have an 11 year old son and 9 year old daughter. They both eat more than I do. We spend more on groceries than most, I think. Although, my husband was diagnosed with celiac so we are learning as we go and getting that expense under control. The trend lately has been $175ish per week, not counting eating out. I fear the appetites are only going to increase from here and, honestly, it freaks me out in advance. We could get that down if we bought cheaper meats, but I'm a bit finicky about eating grass fed beef, etc. 

We have a 1 activity per kid per season rule. Still, it winds up costing quite a bit. Soccer or baseball through our local YMCA is IIRC $120 per season, not counting uniforms or equipment. Soccer fees through an academy team are nearly $300 per season, not counting uniforms or equipment. Girl Scouts is another $40, school choir is $40.

Then school related expenses, not counting tuition or uniforms (right now both kids are in private school), add up really fast. PTO fundraisers, teacher gifts, costumes for Pilgrim Day or whatever.

Since they wear school uniforms, other clothing expenditures are limited. We get some hand me downs from my nephews, but none for my daughter. My mom gives me a little bit of a hard time about my minimalist take on kid clothes, so she ends up buying them shoes/clothes once a year and gifts them clothes at Christmas. Don't get me wrong - they have plenty of clothes. I just don't think 6 pairs of shoes for a 9 year old girl is necessary and my mom thinks differently.

abhe8

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Re: Children
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 10:55:24 PM »
yes, bigger people do cost more to feed and clothe and educate and entertain. :)

but they can also work. both around the house and in paid employment and could contrubute some.

imustachemystash

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Re: Children
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 10:55:42 PM »
I have 2 kids (ages 2 and 4).  I rarely spend money on toys, clothing, and entertainment.  They also don't eat very much,  so our food bill is pretty low.  I do pay $560 each month for child care 3 days a week.  I am looking forward to not having to pay for child care when they are in school, however, I will probably end up spending the same amount on all the school and extra-curricular activities.  We are not having any more children.

gooki

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Re: Children
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 02:31:44 AM »
Based on the financials you posted your kids don't seem to be expensive. 500 a month is 6,000 a year, dived by 4 kids gives $1,500 each. I'm sure there are other expenses not listed. But all up it seems very reasonable.

My point, don't be so hard on yourself.

Emilyngh

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Re: Children
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 06:25:01 AM »
I agree with Gooki that doing the math your kids really don't seem expensive.    Once you take into account child tax credits (assuming you can take them) and tax exemptions for them, it sounds to me like you might be making money.


I've gotten the impression that "kids are so expensive" is really something everyone says and may feel true, but rarely is.    People over-estimate expenses in their minds (eg, one $200 back to school shopping trip feels expensive, but if it's once a year...), or count silly expensive extracurriculars.   There are some exceptions, though, mainly child care costs.


As far as young being cheaper, I disagree.   For most people the cost of daycare (or salary lost for a sahp) is the most expensive monthly cost they'll ever have for the kid.


I have a teen stepdaughter that we pay cs for, and that is expensive (don't claim her on our taxes either).  But, that's the system; it's expensive to support 2 households.    My two year old dd seems cheap, unless you take into account the lost income for a sahp, then she's more expensive than the cs for the teen.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 09:32:17 AM by Emilyngh »

Michread

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Re: Children
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 06:44:45 AM »
I have 2 sons; one in high school, the other in college.  College is the most expensive of ALL the activities my dc have ever done!  But it's worth it, and we've saved for it, so it's all good!

Yes, as dc get older they are more expensive.  Someone once told me that all teenage boys have hollow legs, they EAT so much! My boys have slowed down now that they're older teens.

As far as daycare goes, yes it's expensive but it's usually cheaper than a parent staying home with the dc.  Knowing what you're in for BEFORE you have dc is what it's all about.

golden1

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Re: Children
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 09:08:42 AM »
My two kids are moving from little kid to big kid stage and I would say the costs even out.  Yes, I am paying more for food, but less for child care, clothes (kids are staying in the same size for longer periods of time).  Activities remain about the same - we also have a one activity per child rule. 

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 09:38:09 AM »
Based on the financials you posted your kids don't seem to be expensive. 500 a month is 6,000 a year, dived by 4 kids gives $1,500 each. I'm sure there are other expenses not listed. But all up it seems very reasonable.

My point, don't be so hard on yourself.

Thanks Gooki!  The total we are spending in each category seems reasonable to me, too (except maybe food and clothes) but then when I add it all up, it seems both excessive and unavoidable.

When we went school shopping last August, I thought, well, that was a lot of money ($400 for clothes and supplies, so again, not excessive for 4 kids) but now we're done with it.  Except the kids keep growing and needing new pants and shoes and coats and snowboots and...  We've not had great luck at thrift stores for the in between sizes (lots of little kid clothes, lots of adult clothes, not so much for tweens and young teens), so my clothes spending has hovered around $200 a month for the past 6 months.  They are all really skinny, so it's hard to buy clothes that are too long (giving them a little growing room) but stay up around the waist.  I do save clothes to pass down from one kid to the next, but the middle boy is very picky about what he will wear, and has a very different style from the older one, so that only works some of the time.

Our food spending generally ranges between $1200 and $1500/month.  That is for mostly organic food (again, keeping spending in line with values) and includes occasional eating out. The fridge and pantry are pretty much completely depleted by the end of each week.  I encourage the kids to eat cheap snacks after school (popcorn with brewer's yeast, garbanzo beans cooked from dry, etc.) and we mostly try to avoid processed food.  Aside from eating crappy brands with scary ingredients, I really don't don't know how to bring it down without my kids going hungry.   Glad to hear further down the thread that older teens slow down with the eating!!

Totally not trying to be a complainy-pants!  Just not seeing my experience with teens reflected in the forum - and it looks like the poll so far does indicate that my hypothesis was correct.  When my kids were young, I thought kids were cheap, too!  I still want to think they are cheap, but I need some super ninja mustache skills that apparently I don't possess to make that happen.  Maybe I need to do a journal thing or post our budget...would love ideas for saving more without sacrificing family memories/quality of life/values...

In terms of FI, I think that in 8-10 years we will be in a very different place than we are now.  Our youngest kids should be finishing up with college, we should be out of debt except for houses, and our home should be pretty close to paid off, so I certainly don't think it will be this way forever, but maybe want to shout out a warning that it does get harder to spend so little as kids move into the teen years, especially if you have a big family.  On the other hand, my kids are amazing and funny and fun to be around.  They do help out a lot around the house - they have daily contributions in addition to taking care of their own stuff, so they clean the bathrooms and kitchen, do laundry, vacuum, clean up dog poop, take out trash, wash windows and dust, etc.  They are very independent and self-entertaining, and I love having conversations with them and watching them make their ways in the world.  They make me laugh so hard every day, and they are excellent travel companions. So by no means am I saying I wish I didn't have all these kids so that I could save more money - my life is much richer for them and for the experiences we share!

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 09:45:05 AM »
I have 2 kids (ages 2 and 4).  I rarely spend money on toys, clothing, and entertainment.  They also don't eat very much,  so our food bill is pretty low.  I do pay $560 each month for child care 3 days a week.  I am looking forward to not having to pay for child care when they are in school, however, I will probably end up spending the same amount on all the school and extra-curricular activities.  We are not having any more children.

This was exactly how I would have described things when my kids were younger - I never had daycare for my older son, but I was so excited for my youngest to start school so I could quit paying for day care.  And in the elementary years, the kids were still pretty cheap. We definitely didn't spend anywhere near $560 a month on school and extracurricular activities, and they still didn't eat that much.  It's only been in the last couple of years that costs have seemed to skyrocket.

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2013, 09:51:28 AM »
I agree with Gooki that doing the math your kids really don't seem expensive.    Once you take into account child tax credits (assuming you can take them) and tax exemptions for them, it sounds to me like you might be making money.

I've gotten the impression that "kids are so expensive" is really something everyone says and may feel true, but rarely is.    People over-estimate expenses in their minds (eg, one $200 back to school shopping trip feels expensive, but if it's once a year...), or count silly expensive extracurriculars.   There are some exceptions, though, mainly child care costs.

As far as young being cheaper, I disagree.   For most people the cost of daycare (or salary lost for a sahp) is the most expensive monthly cost they'll ever have for the kid.

I have a teen stepdaughter that we pay cs for, and that is expensive (don't claim her on our taxes either).  But, that's the system; it's expensive to support 2 households.    My two year old dd seems cheap, unless you take into account the lost income for a sahp, then she's more expensive than the cs for the teen.
 

I haven't done the math on tax credits (maybe I should) but I would be shocked if we are making money!  I'm looking at our monthly spending over the last 6 months, so I'm not overestimating one-time expenditures in my head.  It's interesting to hear your perspective, since you have both a teen and a toddler. How often is your stepdaughter with you?  I thought cs for my stepkids was expensive until they came to live with us more and it was reduced - now we pay directly for more of their expenses, but I think the out of pocket costs are probably similar.

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2013, 09:54:26 AM »
I have 2 sons; one in high school, the other in college.  College is the most expensive of ALL the activities my dc have ever done!  But it's worth it, and we've saved for it, so it's all good!

Yes, as dc get older they are more expensive.  Someone once told me that all teenage boys have hollow legs, they EAT so much! My boys have slowed down now that they're older teens.

As far as daycare goes, yes it's expensive but it's usually cheaper than a parent staying home with the dc.  Knowing what you're in for BEFORE you have dc is what it's all about.

Thanks for the perspective on older kids - I am honestly a little scared about 4 kids in college, but I know we will make it work, and we have had lots of practical conversations with them about reducing costs in various ways and the fact that, while we will help as much as we can, they will probably have to work through college as well.

Michread

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Re: Children
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 11:39:07 AM »
I have 2 sons; one in high school, the other in college.  College is the most expensive of ALL the activities my dc have ever done!  But it's worth it, and we've saved for it, so it's all good!

Yes, as dc get older they are more expensive.  Someone once told me that all teenage boys have hollow legs, they EAT so much! My boys have slowed down now that they're older teens.

As far as daycare goes, yes it's expensive but it's usually cheaper than a parent staying home with the dc.  Knowing what you're in for BEFORE you have dc is what it's all about.

Thanks for the perspective on older kids - I am honestly a little scared about 4 kids in college, but I know we will make it work, and we have had lots of practical conversations with them about reducing costs in various ways and the fact that, while we will help as much as we can, they will probably have to work through college as well.

I'm sure it will all work itself out.  College is much more expensive these days but there are options; if the dc want it bad enough they will work for what they want. 


rubybeth

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Re: Children
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2013, 12:01:54 PM »
I don't have any kids, but I think my parents would agree that older kids aren't cheap. They paid for private elementary through high school for both me and my sister, and my first year of undergrad at the local university was cheaper than my sister's high school tuition (!). They also generously paid for our undergraduate degrees. Neither of us were into expensive hobbies, and cell phones weren't a big thing until we were older and could afford them with our own paychecks. They encouraged us to work during college, but not to the detriment of our grades. We went on one vacation a year (a family reunion type of thing at a resort on a lake), and they took us to Disney World (we were both pretty big Disney fans as kids) twice, which were amazing trips.

They really emphasized education as being our best option to have a good life. We both have graduate degrees now, and I think we'd both agree that they were right. The one thing I wished they did when we got our first jobs was require us to save part of our checks. I had a friend whose parents did this when she got her first job at 16--it was required that she save half of her paycheck. When she was done with school and got married, that savings had grown and she was able to put a down payment on a house. My parents did a heck of a lot of other excellent modeling in terms of finances, though, so I don't blame them for not thinking of this. :)

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2013, 12:50:15 PM »
My two kids are moving from little kid to big kid stage and I would say the costs even out.  Yes, I am paying more for food, but less for child care, clothes (kids are staying in the same size for longer periods of time).  Activities remain about the same - we also have a one activity per child rule.

My experience is that there is much less difference in cost between little/big kids than there is between kids/teens.  The cost of activities, clothes, and food all went up at around the same time.  My kids grew more slowly and could wear the same clothes for a couple of years sometimes in elementary school.  That has not held true as they got older.  My oldest son grew 5 shoe sizes in the same six months that he grew 8 inches (that was the spring/summer that he was 14). Even though his growth has slowed considerably, he is still growing fast enough that he needs new clothes 4 times a year or so - last year's winter clothes and debate suit definitely don't fit.  Right now our 13 yo is growing about 3/4" a month, and the 11 yo girl is not far behind.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Children
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2013, 07:26:57 PM »
DD is almost finished university - husband and I are doing partial support, she has a part-time job, and student loans (not a lot).  She is carrying an honours double major, so school, not a part-time job, is her main priority - the further she has gotten into her field the more the fun activities have been dropped, and school has taken more time  She knows the support ends when she graduates (or turns 25, but she will graduate first).  Her boy-friend is also a student, so their lifestyles are pretty bare-bones right now.  For example, she shares a house with 4 room-mates.

She did several activities in high school (soccer and karate and Scouts were low cost, Irish dance was not, but even there we spent a lot less than most of the girls she danced with).  Our biggest expense was sending her to a French private school (Quebec, not super expensive, about $3000/year) founded by an order that was very focused on education.  This school was academically better than either the local English or French schools.  There was a school uniform, not expensive, which meant we probably spent less on clothes than if she had gone to public schools!  She came out fluently bilingual and has never had trouble finding a job, so that was a good investment.

MrsPete

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Re: Children
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2013, 08:02:11 PM »

Yes, older kids do cost more -- even if they're on good terms with the word "NO".  Used clothing for a toddler is super-easy; used clothing for a teen is a challenge (on the other hand, they no longer outgrow it).  Teens eat more, they drive, they wear braces, and they're in activities.  All of these are things for which we were prepared, but they do add up.  Looking back, we are spending more than we did when they were in daycare, but we're also earning more and with our mortgage paid off, our expenses are lower.  What's been my biggest surprise though?  College hasn't been the buggabo we'd feared.  To tell the truth, we haven't yet dipped into our savings account.  We're not adding to our savings at the same rate we did in the past, but we're halfway through college with our first, and it hasn't been bad at all. 

As the parent of one older teen / one young adult, here's what I think is true about kids and spending:  It's kind of like going on a vacation.  You can spend a whole lot of money splurging on an expensive suite, going out to fancy restaurants, buying tickets for expensive activities . . . or you can stay in a moderate place, eat picnic lunches packed from home, and just spend the day on the beach or hike.  In the end, how much fun you've had on that vacation is probably based upon who you were with and your own attitude.  Raising kids is kind of the same:  Within reason, spending more money doesn't necessarily guarantee a better result. 



ghatko

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Re: Children
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2013, 12:24:19 PM »
I continued to live very well as a single mom on a relatively small income.  Eventually I married a guy who also has two kids. 

So we are now raising four kids, ages 11-almost 16, and we spend what seems like an insane amount of money.

Could it also be that you are now spending on four kids instead of just two? I just wanted to suggest that as another possible reason why it seems more expensive for you now.

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2013, 06:04:15 PM »

Could it also be that you are now spending on four kids instead of just two? I just wanted to suggest that as another possible reason why it seems more expensive for you now.

Good thinking - I can see where you would get that from what I wrote - but we moved in together when the kids were 5,6,7, and 10.  So we had all four kids through the elementary years, and it's only in the last couple of years that I feel like our costs have skyrocketed.

I do appreciate the poll answers and comments on this thread - it affirms the sense I had that many people on these forums have never raised teenagers (let alone 4 of them!) and that those who have confirm that I am not alone in finding that bigger kids = bigger expenses.

Zamboni

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Re: Children
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2013, 07:10:20 PM »
Quote
They are all really skinny

Isn't that what belts are for?  ;-)

My kids are bottomless, too.  But they do need to eat, so just keep letting them eat all that they need.  It sounds like the more expensive food choices is what's really adding up, and I'm not sure what the answer is because I'm against genetically modified crops, for instance, but they are not even required to be labelled in most places so I don't trust that the organic label stuff is really more healthy.

ruthiegirl

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Re: Children
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2013, 11:09:19 AM »
Well, yes and yes.  More kids cost more.  Bigger kids cost more.  We have raised our 4 kids to be happy hippies...thrift store clothes, breastfeeding, and cloth diapers ruled our nest for years, but now the kids are older and there are more expenses coming up. 

Eye glasses and school activities, more food, bigger clothes that are hard to find second hand...I just spend more.  We compensate in other ways.  We have one minivan, we live in a small duplex.   We are still saving 30-40% every month, some months I can get it to 50%. 

Sure, we won't reach FI as quickly, but we are so freaking happy as a family, that the expenses are fine.  We spend carefully, we save diligently, and we are loving life as a bigger family. 


Daleth

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Re: Children
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2013, 02:29:29 PM »
Once they get to 16, they can start working and also work around the house.  Also, no more daycare/babysitting costs.

Wait... until they're 16 they don't work around the house?! You've got to start them early to create the habit.

Seppie

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Re: Children
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2013, 10:41:47 PM »
Once they get to 16, they can start working and also work around the house.  Also, no more daycare/babysitting costs.

Wait... until they're 16 they don't work around the house?! You've got to start them early to create the habit.

One of my favorite sayings is, "If they can walk, they can work."  Our kids were expected to help out even as toddlers, and by the time they were 6 they were doing laundry!

teen persuasion

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Re: Children
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 08:16:48 AM »
I've got five kids: 8, 15, 18, 20, & 23.  The oldest is out of college and in the navy, but her stuff is still living at home for now.  DS2 & DD3 are in college; they were home for Thanksgiving, so food expenses were up for this week.  DS4 is in HS & DS5 is in ES.

Older kids definitely cost more: they eat more (especially if they train hard in sports, and during growth spurts), their clothes cost more (they are bigger, thus use more cloth, and little kid hand-me-downs are everywhere), are involved in more activities (sports, music, clubs, drama...), and begin to want to spend money socially (movies, bowling, dates, etc.).  And then there is the transportation issue...

We spend lots more time & money transporting the kids around now vs. before they began school - pick-ups from sports practice, weekend music competitions and concerts, practices for the HS musical, church youth group meetings, religious Ed classes, summer swim classes, summer soccer practice & games, Gifted Math classes, teacher conferences and open houses, PTA Family Fun Nights, the list is endless.  Once they are old enough to drive, there is the cost of driver's ed, car insurance, car repairs (or replacement!) when accidents occur.

Oh, I also forgot that their "toys" tend to get more expensive.  Little ones can be thrilled w/ boxes and other simple things like blocks, but eventually the teens "need" phones, graphing calculators, laptops, etc.  Those then need batteries and accessories like cooling pads or cases or a mouse.

College costs have not been bad for us; because of the size of our family and our relatively low income the kids  have gotten lots of aid.  Yes, they have loans and do work study, but there are LOT of scholarships and grants in there too.  I am concerned at what the situation will be when DS5 is ready for college in ~10 years - the others should be out of the house at that point, and the FAFSA formula may work against us then, especially if we are FIRE at that point.  I have seen the formulas getting more and more tight (less savings protected, dropping income levels for EFC=0) just since 2008 when DD1 began college.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 08:20:49 AM by teen persuasion »

RootofGood

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Re: Children
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2013, 10:05:03 AM »
Hi!  I have 3 kids ages 1.5, 7, and 8. 

So far they don't really cost that much.  They think thrift store shopping is cool, and $30-40 gets two bags full of clothes.  Thank you Macklemore. 

For food, we tend to buy the cheaper meats and don't do organic.  Boneless lean chicken or pork = under $2/lb.  Beef = $3/lb.  Bone in pork or chicken = under $1/lb.  Our kids won't eat seafood so we don't buy much of it (maybe a couple pounds per month for the adults - usually $6/lb average price).  We only buy meats on sale, and sometimes on clearance they are even cheaper than what I mentioned. 

Veggies, fruits and starches are really cheap at Aldi and we get plenty of all.  We spend probably $400/month on groceries and eat a lot of fancy stuff (not beans and rice).  We only spend $80/mo dining out since we cook almost everything at home. 

I expect the kid costs will rise some as they enter the teenage years (activities, cars, braces, higher allowances, etc).  The oldest is 8 and we haven't seen hardly any expenses yet.  We do put them in all day summer camp for a month or so each summer.  It's only $200 for a month.  Eventually they will be too old for the summer camp and not want to participate, so we will divert the funds to something else that interests them. 


Cujo

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Re: Children
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 06:43:09 AM »
The results of this poll are really enlightening as far as my reaction to claims all over this site (including MMM himself) that kids "aren't that expensive". No, they're not, when they're young. I have three teenagers. Activity fees (1), a car and associated expenses for the oldest (2), food (they eat at least as much as adults), clothes (even thrift-shop clothes add up when they outgrow them every 4 months), etc. Don't even get me started on college; we've saved all their lives, and still will come up a little short of four years at an in-state public university.

(1) I'm not talking about ivy league preschool stuff. Want to play a sport in high school? $200 a season, not including equipment. Marching band? $600, not including travel to competitions. Plus, for those who play sports outside of school, driving them all over the place all the time.

(2) She goes to a public magnet science-tech high school that is 20 miles from our house. Before she was able to drive, we carpooled (which meant us making a 40-mile round trip three or four times a week) or she spent 4 hours a day on a bus. She bought the car with her own savings, but we pay gas, maintenance, and insurance, to the tune of several hundred dollars a month.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 06:44:49 AM by Cujo »

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Re: Children
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 08:25:49 AM »
My son is 20 months old, and already just about eats more than my wife.  He can house 2 chicken thighs, a half cup of rice, and vegetables in ONE MEAL.  I can't imagine feeding 4 teenagers :)


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Re: Children
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2013, 09:44:39 AM »
Well this hits home.  I was going to post a question in general on how people handle multiple kids within a Mustachian framework.  We have a 1 year old now and plan on finishing with somewhere between 2-4 total kids.  I just think of the 4 and my brain starts to think I can't do ER because of it, or that at a minimum, I'll have to delay....

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Re: Children
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2013, 12:10:09 PM »
@eyePod: It seems self-evident that having kids will delay your retirement. By exactly how much will vary according to many variables. In my case I'd guesstimate that raising my three kids (and sending all three to college at an in-state public school) will delay my ER by approximately 10-12 years.

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Re: Children
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2013, 12:32:21 PM »
If it were not for one of my son (I have four children, all over 18) whom I worry about, I would have been FI at 50 and my wife at 34. My son is now 23, dropped out of high school, has no job, and faces depression. Did a pre-apprenticeship as a boilermaker this fall but has not found a job yet. My wife and I could just simply sell everything, pack the rest and spend our days doing what we enjoy most (travel and street food, and if i can convince my wife, get a sailboat and sail around the world with my 22-year old daughter who is doing just that, and nothing less...), but we have to delay our plans until he is on his way to complete autonomy.

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Re: Children
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2013, 01:47:38 PM »
OP, I agree with those who said you are doing well at averaging $500 for expenses for 4 kids. I have 2 daughters, ages 7 and 10. We limit activities to one sport per season, plus piano lessons for each child. One daughter also plays in the band (instrument rental) and is in girl scouts (which is our lowest cost activity). Both go to public school, and probably about half of their clothing is from consignment shops or hand me downs. I just went over my spending for the past 6 months and we averaged $806 per month in the "kids" category, about $400 per month per child, and I don't see that number going down any time soon. This number doesn't take into account extra food costs, and I won't tell you what our (unmustachian) monthly grocery bill is. Also, this does not include college savings, which we (and grandparents) have set aside in a guaranteed tuition plan with our state (both girls have enough in their accounts at this point to cover 4 years of college at state university).

Yes, we live in a pretty high COL area, so even kids' activities are more expensive here. We also have several friends/neighbors who send their children to private school - to the tune of $25,000/year per child in tuition and fees. That, to me, is an expensive childhood, and would prevent FIRE for us most definitely. Fortunately, we are happy with our public schools!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 01:53:53 PM by orcas50 »

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Re: Children
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2013, 03:39:00 PM »
I wish my parents kept detailed records of what they spent on me and my brother as teenagers. 

We drove a hand me down car.  Until it broke.  Then shared other family cars.  Then I got in a wreck, insurance went crazy high, I went to college and dropped the insurance since I didn't really need to drive and a car was a nuisance for the first half of college (no parking).  I rode the bus.  It was under a buck per ride.  I also had a bike.  I got around everywhere just fine in a not particularly bike or transit friendly city.

In middle and HS we did boy scouts (including high adventure stuff) and martial arts (at an expensive high end place, not a dumpy dojo).  They may have spent $2000-2500 total per year at the peak on those activities (I vaguely remember the costs for most of what we did).  Factor in inflation and call it $3000/yr today (total for 2 of us).  We stayed busy almost every weeknight and 1-2 weekends per year.  We rarely went on vacation during the school year and not often during the summer because, well, martial arts and boy scouts/high adventure kept us busy and served as vacations for us.  My parents' spending was different, not necessarily more. 

We lived in the city, so our activities were nearby.  Martial arts and boy scouts were both walkable distance, and I often rode my bike.  School ended up being pretty far away, so I rode the school bus (like OMG an hour!).  I slept on the bus or read or spent time talking to friends.  Or enjoyed a little quiet pensive time between school and homework.  I actually have fond memories from riding the bus for such a long period of time.  It was like forced recreation time to decompress in the afternoons before intense academic focus in the afternoons and evenings. 

During high school, I went to the state University in the afternoons for high level engineering coursework not available at my HS (I topped out of the AP coursework in Physics and Calculus), and the car came in handy, but it wasn't a strict necessity.  Carpooling, taxis, my bike, or the bus would have gotten me there no problemo.  The university fees were $300 per semester plus $100 or so for books.  That was the full rack rate at the time (probably double or triple that now for 1 class). 

We ate like hogs all day, but if you are smart with your groceries, it really wasn't that expensive. 

I'd like to give my kids roughly the teenage years I had in terms of variety of experiences and I don't expect the costs to be way out of line with what my parents spent.  Maybe we got "lucky" by living in the city where cars aren't absolutely essential and the basics are easily walkable (schools, library, parks, shopping, restaurant, coffee shop, etc).  The mall is 10 minutes by bus (do kids even go to the mall any more??).  They each have 2 hands and 2 feet and capacity to earn money. 


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Re: Children
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2013, 05:25:21 PM »
A guy at work told me they spend $10,000 per year on their daughter's dancing. That includes lessons, costumes, and travel. But, holy fuck.

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Re: Children
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2013, 05:40:50 PM »
A guy at work told me they spend $10,000 per year on their daughter's dancing. That includes lessons, costumes, and travel. But, holy fuck.

That's quite an investment, especially if the daughter turns out to be a stripper, although they make good money I hear...

steveo

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Re: Children
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2013, 12:45:56 PM »
I have 3 kids aged 12, 10 & 3. The biggest expense is the 3 year old at day care 4 days per week. The 12 & 10 year old also cost money for swimming, music and gymnastic lessons.

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Re: Children
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2013, 04:43:29 PM »
I think that raising children can be as expensive or as cheap as you want to make it.

But I do know I wouldn't be on the verge of ER at 42 if I had kids. No way.

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Re: Children
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2013, 04:53:54 PM »
No kids, and approaching 40, so that will almost certainly be a permanent thing.

And more than anything else, that's probably the smartest (just from a numbers perspective) financial move we've made. 

Jon_Snow

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Re: Children
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2013, 06:23:24 PM »
The best thing about not having kids (from an ER perspective) is that in years when the investment portfolio may be hit hard, I will have the ability to strip expenses right to the bone. Right now I live extremely well on 30k per year. But I have not doubt I could manage on 15k or less if need be. That would be irresponsible parenting if one had to drag kids into that situation.

My investment portfolio is now over 1M, and I worry whether it is enough - if I had kids to support, I wouldn't even be thinking about ER. My greatest fear about ER is misjudging my expenses and having to go back to work - kids are a wildcard that makes that likelihood much too likely for my liking. :)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Children
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2013, 11:52:48 AM »
A guy at work told me they spend $10,000 per year on their daughter's dancing. That includes lessons, costumes, and travel. But, holy fuck.
I'm curious, what kind?  We found Irish Dance to be fairly expensive (Scouting in Canada, karate, and soccer were all way less, but she had a strong graceful soccer kick from it), ranging to exorbitant depending on how much parents were willing to spend.  Highland dancing can be equally bad.  But the most expensive activity among my daughter's friends was competitive equestrian jumping - wow, I could have lived for a year on what they spent on that activity.

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Re: Children
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2013, 03:13:12 PM »
^ I'm fairly sure she does ballet, tap and/or jazz. Her costumes for the end-of-year dance concert cost $2,500 alone :-/ And keep in mind, we live in a small (20,000 population) rural town.

abhe8

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Re: Children
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2013, 08:58:53 PM »
well, kids are people ya know. they do cost money. you can only stretch a grocery budget so far when there are 4 extra mouths to feed. and as they get older, things like food and clothing are more expensive then when they are little. no matter how you buy the food and clothes.

and based on some of the pps, i guess i should be glad my daughters ballet classes are only 175 a quarter, so thats about 700 a year. add in maybe 50 for shoes and clothes and its quite the bargain!

RootofGood

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Re: Children
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2013, 11:36:07 AM »
We looked into ISD and my kids did a few day camps, but I decided that we weren't willing to invest the $$$ that I learned it took to stick with it.  Incidentally, my nine year old daughter (the main one in question when I was deciding about dance) is currently using her free time to learn about upcycling projects.  I see that this is a much better use of her time.  She has made bulletin boards, purses, a bracelet and pillows all from jeans that either were outgrown or worn out by family members. 

You bring up a good point that hasn't really been mentioned in this thread (from what I recall).

When you choose to stick your kid in an expensive formal activity (or any formal activity really), there is an opportunity cost.  In your daughter's case, if she were pursuing soccer, dance, or whatever right now, she wouldn't be spending nearly as much time on other projects like upcycling. 

The pastime of kids playing with unstructured free time seems to be almost dead.  My kids have some friends that are very involved in activities (after school programs at the community center, karate, gymnastics, sports).  But they never play outside in an unstructured manner.  On the rare free weekend day, their parents apparently are too pooped to let them play outside of their house.  And when I set up after school play dates, they are never able to stay past 4:00 pm or so, since their daily marathon of activities begins not long after. 

Maybe I'm raising lackadaisical free spirited kids instead of success driven goal oriented "winners" since I don't put them in many formal activities.  Of course maybe they will find something they really enjoy and pursue it as a side interest or career.  So far they have learned to program, design computer games, speak basic Portuguese, illustrate, paint, do fashion design and sew their designs.  Those activities all happen to be free or almost free (a couple bucks for supplies or free from family/friends). 


acroy

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Re: Children
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2013, 12:43:39 PM »
5 kids, age 7 and under
No major medical problems (this helps)
They are not all that expensive, and dear Uncle Sam gives us $1k/yr/kid tax credit.

Estimate around $1k per year per kid including medical coverage, clothes, food, etc. Clothes are 99% thrift store and they get to hand-me-down till they wear out. Friends & family have been quite generous. We spend very little on toys, activities etc, as we have a pool in the backyard and a huge park ¼ mile away!

We have the school-age kids on performance-based allowance system. They cover 50% of the cost of clothing to encourage care with possessions.

If they break something, they pay for it. Recently a $35 fridge drawer, it took the 7yr old 10 weeks of allowance to pay for it.

We homeschool as well, a few hundred a year, not bad.

I expect them to start more or less supporting themselves by early teen years – They can mow lawns, walk dogs, babysit the neighbors, etc! I’ll provide room & board, they’ll chip in for food, clothing, etc.

Transition to adulthood will be a snap :) and that's the duty of a parent, is it not? To help their kids grow into responsible adults?

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Re: Children
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2013, 01:57:29 PM »
But acroy, that sounds like child neglect!  ;)

Somehow I think your kids will end up well above the median as adults. 

Emilyngh

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Re: Children
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2013, 05:24:35 PM »

They are not all that expensive, and dear Uncle Sam gives us $1k/yr/kid tax credit.

Estimate around $1k per year per kid including medical coverage, clothes, food, etc.

Plus a tax-exemption each, no?   This should save an extra, what, $500+ per year.   Sounds like you're making money with your kids;)

I partially am joking, but I'm also surprised at how many people seem to forget this when adding up the expenses proving how expensive their kids are.

If I don't count DH's income loss staying home with DD (which benefits our family in overall quality of life beyond saving her daycare costs), DD costs less than we save in taxes.

RootofGood

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Re: Children
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2013, 08:14:35 PM »

They are not all that expensive, and dear Uncle Sam gives us $1k/yr/kid tax credit.

Estimate around $1k per year per kid including medical coverage, clothes, food, etc.

Plus a tax-exemption each, no?   This should save an extra, what, $500+ per year.   Sounds like you're making money with your kids;)

I partially am joking, but I'm also surprised at how many people seem to forget this when adding up the expenses proving how expensive their kids are.

If I don't count DH's income loss staying home with DD (which benefits our family in overall quality of life beyond saving her daycare costs), DD costs less than we save in taxes.

We get a $5500 federal tax break (credit plus exemptions) and an $800 state tax break.  Plus another $350 for college savings contributions.  That brings the total up to $6,650 taxes saved.  And our income based student loan payments are $2,700/yr lower due to kids.  If you get Obamacare subsidies, those are much larger with more kids.  Right now we are saving $9,350 per year due to having 3 kids.

We don't get the EIC, but that would be another big tax break for kids.  All in, we're probably making money off our kids (with our mustachian spending levels).  Maybe the OP is right, and during the teen years we would have a "net operating loss" ( ;) ) due to kids. Otherwise, kids aren't so expensive after factoring in tax savings and savings from other programs.

I can't figure out a way to cut our expenses by $9,350 (the amount we save by having kids). 

Groceries and household items are $6,300/yr now.  Maybe I could save $2,500 there (we wouldn't be able to get economies of scale on food purchases).

We spend $2,700 on utilities each year right now.  $1,800 or so of that is heating and cooling, and flat rate "administrative charges" just for having a hook up each month.  Let's be generous and say I could cut $700 per year here.

I could cut $1,500 from Entertainment/toys/electronics/dining out/gifts/misc. 

Maybe $700/yr medical cuts.

$300 auto/gas cuts.

I have budgeted $5,300 for vacations.  Maybe we could cut about $2700 (roughly half).

I doubt we would downsize (wife wants a house with a yard and we wouldn't save much by buying a 3 BR instead of our 4 BR we already have (given our unique location).

So far I only found $8,400 that we would cut from the budget.  The reality is that if we were DINKs, our spending would change.  We might actually travel and dine out more so there probably wouldn't be a real reduction in expenses there.  And much of our social and entertainment time and expenses are related to kids.  Sans kids, we would have to find something else to do.

In summary, I'll go out on a limb and say we are making money off the kids right now (about $1,000 year total).  Shhh, don't tell the kids.  They'll want a cut.  :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:29:55 PM by RootofGood »

turboseize

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Re: Children
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2013, 05:13:32 AM »
They get their cut: their allowance. ;-)

RootofGood

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Re: Children
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 08:35:14 AM »
They get their cut: their allowance. ;-)

Yeah, that was part of the "misc" that I figured I could cut without kids. 

Catherine

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Re: Children
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2013, 09:56:31 AM »
I have two boys, 11 and 8. They do eat a lot, but they prefer the cheap stuff - bean burritos, mac & cheese, and for a special treat, ramen. I insist on making adult food at least once a week and end up having leftovers for my lunches for several days.

I was thinking the other day about the kind of things I'd want to do in retirement, and top on my list would be to visit my kids and their families. Even if they are "delaying" my FI date, I wouldn't change a thing because I get to have them with me all the time now.

But sports are hella expensive. Yeesh. I'm one of ten kids so I never got to do the extracurriculars I wanted to and I'm determined to let the boys try whatever they want, but oh em gee.

Cujo

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Re: Children
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2013, 08:58:36 AM »
Relevant: http://xkcd.com/946/

Bottom line for this subject, as far as I'm concerned: Feeding 5 humans (my second-biggest budget item after the mortgage) can't help but be substantially more expensive than feeding 2 humans. Not to mention needing a larger house, driving them places, the costs of sports/activities/classes/etc.

As I said earlier, I estimate that having 3 kids will delay my ER by 10-12 years. I don't remember if I said earlier, but for me it is worth it.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!