Canada vs United States

[WSUCoug1994]

It appears that our friends to the North are overwhelmingly represented on this forum.  Just out of curiosity....are Canadian's on average more astute financially than those of us in the U.S.?  Is there less consumerism in Canada?

I know there isn't a hard answer here but the Canadian's from a percentage standpoint are well represented here.

[Bytowner]

Actually I think recent stats suggest Canadians are saving less than Americans. Probably a number of things drive the participation. 

1) I think MMM has gotten a lot of media attention up here.
2) Social safety net might make it easier to plan for retirement.
3) Great Recession didn't hit us as hard.
4) And I'm only being half-facetious here - we may just be lazier. Canada doesn't have the entrepreneurial spirit that the US does.

[margarita]

As a Canadian, my answer to both questions is "no".

I think the possibility of ER may appear more in reach to Canadians due to the health care system here in Canada.

Also, as the above poster noted, I don't think the recession here was as bad.  Not speaking for all of Canada but certainly in the Toronto area the house prices have continually increased (alot!).

[nobodyspecial]

The housing bubble didn't really hit - in Vancouver the crash was barely noticable, in the rest of the country (outside van/toronto) there was no bubble.

There is a definitely anti-mustachian trend here in Vancouver, if your $M house is going up by 20% a year why bother to save ?

[Goldielocks]

Here is another way to look at it...

Canada achieved 85% household internet usage far, far sooner than the USA.
Canadians switched to online banking, direct deposits, and using credit / debit for grocery payment far sooner than in the USA. 
-- this number I know for certain.  Canada had 80% of all Safeway grocery transactions by credit / debit in 2000, when the US stores only had 45%...  Also, at that time, 100% of employees in Canada (and we are talking warehouse workers and grocery clerks, low wage folks) on direct deposit to their chequing accoung, in 1999, while the USA was still struggling to get past 70% in 2007, with terrible resistance in many regions.


So, I think that Canadians are just a lot more familiar with the idea of online investing, online money forums, use of the internet as an important tool, etc.
It is just a matter of time for Americans to catch up, and MMM is on the leading edge of the trend!

[rocketpj]

It's hard for me to make any kind of comparison as I don't know a lot of Americans that well.  But very few of my peers seem to have much of a grip on their finances (my peers being families with both parents in their mid-30s to late 40s).  A few of them are in decent shape, but it's often the result of an inheritance or other 'windfall', not day to day fiscal prudence.

But I'm not sure what the baseline is for Americans vs. Canadians.  For all I know my peers are models of restraint compared to the same groups down South.  I suspect we are all much the same.

That said, it sure is nice having a good, reliable and effective health care system in place.  Losing it would be a major disincentive to moving to the US.

[GuitarStv]

Most of the people I know are pretty wasteful and spendy.  A great many of them are living right at the edge of their means.

[undercover]

Canada achieved 85% household internet usage far, far sooner than the USA.
Canadians switched to online banking, direct deposits, and using credit / debit for grocery payment far sooner than in the USA. 
-- this number I know for certain.  Canada had 80% of all Safeway grocery transactions by credit / debit in 2000, when the US stores only had 45%...  Also, at that time, 100% of employees in Canada (and we are talking warehouse workers and grocery clerks, low wage folks) on direct deposit to their chequing accoung, in 1999, while the USA was still struggling to get past 70% in 2007, with terrible resistance in many regions.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with being more financially astute, rather a society more willing to adopt new technologies, which ironically the U.S. has always been slow to do.

That said, we're just now starting to implement chip technology when Europe has had it for a decade. Our Internet speeds are some of the slowest in the world. Not only on a home-based level, but wireless as well. The prices do not represent the overall inferior nature of our Internet options either. Our healthcare system sucks. Most of our infrastructure sucks. All because we have financially illiterate morons in leadership. So maybe the Canadian government is more financially astute than the U.S. It would be hard to make that argument for the general population though.

[plainjane]

I think it may be more noticeable that there are Canadians here vs. other forums because the rules and account types are different.  Trusting in universal health care also makes it easier to decide to FIRE.

I had an interesting discussion with a bank employee.  Based on what they were saying, it's easier and more expected to save in tax advantaged accounts outside of the workplace in Canada than in the US.  In Canada, you can put aside your 18% into RRSPs (up to the $24k or so max) without needing to be part of a workplace scheme (like a 401k).  And then you've got the TFSA space.  So savings with an equity component are part of the personal banking expectation - usually with high MERs, but still on the radar for the general population.  In the US, that's more considered wealth management to be setting up retirement savings on your own, and I wonder how that impacts the communications and processes, which means that it seems harder to start.

[FIRE Artist]

I live in Alberta, where I am pretty sure most Americans would feel right at home. Spendypants abound in this province, despite the collapse of oil prices and massive layoffs.  It is a hard habit to break, even when jobless apparently.  There  is a glimmer of hope in that sales projections are showing Alberta is finally (12+ months after the bottom dropped out of oil) slowing down on spending on trucks at least, but the monster mega-mall in the city still needs to use overflow parking for all the holiday shoppers. 

Something to consider, we pay much more out in up front taxes, which includes healthcare and Canada Pension so don't have the option to prioritize non essential spending over those necessities.  Add to that the fact that the low Canadian dollar and import tariffs make consumer goods much more expensive than in the US, the spending power of a Canadian is less than an American of similar salary , giving the appearance of frugality where it doesn't really exist.  Unfortunately we have access to cheap credit to help keep up with the US Jonses. 

[tooqk4u22]

Canada achieved 85% household internet usage far, far sooner than the USA.
Canadians switched to online banking, direct deposits, and using credit / debit for grocery payment far sooner than in the USA. 
-- this number I know for certain.  Canada had 80% of all Safeway grocery transactions by credit / debit in 2000, when the US stores only had 45%...  Also, at that time, 100% of employees in Canada (and we are talking warehouse workers and grocery clerks, low wage folks) on direct deposit to their chequing accoung, in 1999, while the USA was still struggling to get past 70% in 2007, with terrible resistance in many regions.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with being more financially astute, rather a society more willing to adopt new technologies, which ironically the U.S. has always been slow to do. That said, we're just now starting to implement chip technology when Europe has had it for a decade. Our Internet speeds are some of the slowest in the world. Not only on a home-based level, but wireless as well. The prices do not represent the overall inferior nature of our Internet options either. Our healthcare system sucks. Most of our infrastructure sucks. All because we have financially illiterate morons in leadership. So maybe the Canadian government is more financially astute than the U.S. It would be hard to make that argument for the general population though.

I am not so sure about that....the US has created most of the technology that exists, but adopting it across the board is slower than Canada as the US has a far more diverse population by almost any measure (race, income, cultural - ignoring international cultures the US has many different sub-cultures by geography).  Population: Canada - 35,000,000...USA - 319,000,000.  Canada compares more similarly to a single state (maybe CA given the population, tech centric, and socialist aspect of that state, but without the natural resources or water). 

Actually I think recent stats suggest Canadians are saving less than Americans. Probably a number of things drive the participation. 

1) I think MMM has gotten a lot of media attention up here.
2) Social safety net might make it easier to plan for retirement.
3) Great Recession didn't hit us as hard.
4) And I'm only being half-facetious here - we may just be lazier. Canada doesn't have the entrepreneurial spirit that the US does.

I think this is more like it - I work with a lot of Canadians and they love to support all that is Canada (except apparently staying there)....I don't think they are lazy but status quo and laissez faire is certainly a prevalant characteristic sprinkled with a bit of passive aggressive arrogance toward the US.

Canada is clearly not MMM like overall simply by the fact that the Debt levels are the highest in the world.....Canadians have been lulled by a non-stop housing market for a long time....if that ever declines it will not be pretty....doesn't matter though because the gov't controls that.

[undercover]

Canada achieved 85% household internet usage far, far sooner than the USA.
Canadians switched to online banking, direct deposits, and using credit / debit for grocery payment far sooner than in the USA. 
-- this number I know for certain.  Canada had 80% of all Safeway grocery transactions by credit / debit in 2000, when the US stores only had 45%...  Also, at that time, 100% of employees in Canada (and we are talking warehouse workers and grocery clerks, low wage folks) on direct deposit to their chequing accoung, in 1999, while the USA was still struggling to get past 70% in 2007, with terrible resistance in many regions.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with being more financially astute, rather a society more willing to adopt new technologies, which ironically the U.S. has always been slow to do. That said, we're just now starting to implement chip technology when Europe has had it for a decade. Our Internet speeds are some of the slowest in the world. Not only on a home-based level, but wireless as well. The prices do not represent the overall inferior nature of our Internet options either. Our healthcare system sucks. Most of our infrastructure sucks. All because we have financially illiterate morons in leadership. So maybe the Canadian government is more financially astute than the U.S. It would be hard to make that argument for the general population though.

I am not so sure about that....the US has created most of the technology that exists, but adopting it across the board is slower than Canada as the US has a far more diverse population by almost any measure (race, income, cultural - ignoring international cultures the US has many different sub-cultures by geography).  Population: Canada - 35,000,000...USA - 319,000,000.  Canada compares more similarly to a single state (maybe CA given the population, tech centric, and socialist aspect of that state, but without the natural resources or water). 

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing. It sounds like you're agreeing that Canada adopts technology faster...which is what I said...It doesn't really matter who made it, or the size of the population, only how it's used. For that matter, America has more innovators than inventors. We didn't invent lithium ion batteries, cars, calculators, etc...we just brought them to consumers. Anyway, all of this is beside the point. My point was that rate of technology adoption by the masses has nothing to do with financial astuteness.

[TravelJunkyQC]

I was born and raised in the states, but have lived in Québec, Canada since 2004. My family still lives back in the States. Honestly, I haven't found any difference in financial fluency or basic common sense between the two (on average). In Canada, it's more difficult to get randomly blind-sided by a 100,000$ hospital bill, what will free health care. However, consumerism is as rampant here is it is in the States. Salaries and purchasing power are lower here, since goods are more expensive and taxes are higher, but health care is free... so I think it evens out. I've often said that for the lower and middle class, Canada is easier to live in, because the government takes care of a lot of things. However, if you have the urge to be financially upwardly mobile, I think the States have more advantages, since, as previously mentionned, there is more of a entrepreneurial spirit and 150,000$ a year at 35 is not that un-heard of.

[WSUCoug1994]

This is fascinating stuff.  Thank you for sharing

[Prairie Stash]

Based on stories from this site I think education is cheaper in Canada. A University education makes it easier to hit FIRE, unless you have crippling debt.

I also have trouble following all the health insurance business American's are prone to worrying about.

Third is the taxes pay aren't much different. I think my tax bill is lower where I live than several states, its a good deal for me.