Can low income earner be on FIRE?

[Paul der Krake]

The UK is one of the most defeatist places I've ever lived (for a summer internship, later was married to a Brit for a decade). The class system, the anti-immigrant rhetoric, the snobbishness. It's hard on the psyche and can make it difficult to remain positive or see a way out of one's situation.

You know it never truly hit me how much cynicism there is in the UK until I left, especially among the overeducated but underemployed. They give the French a run for their money, who are the reigning world champions of confusing sarcasm for wit.

When I first landed in the US south it took me a while to adjust to everyone being so overtly friendly. I mean, Americans smile as you walk past them in the street, who does that?!

[Imma]

The UK is one of the most defeatist places I've ever lived (for a summer internship, later was married to a Brit for a decade). The class system, the anti-immigrant rhetoric, the snobbishness. It's hard on the psyche and can make it difficult to remain positive or see a way out of one's situation.

You know it never truly hit me how much cynicism there is in the UK until I left, especially among the overeducated but underemployed. They give the French a run for their money, who are the reigning world champions of confusing sarcasm for wit.

When I first landed in the US south it took me a while to adjust to everyone being so overtly friendly. I mean, Americans smile as you walk past them in the street, who does that?!

Isn't that just how we Europeans are? I've spent quite a lot of time in the UK and people there don't seem more cynical than in the Netherlands, Belgium or France or other European countries. It's funny that the #1 complaint we have about Americans is that they are so friendly, we complain about how fake that all is. I have always liked working with Americans exactly because of that - why be unfriendly for no reason? I actually like the politeness of the Brits too. In my country people will try to run you over with their bike if you don't cross the street fast enough and then shout at you after it happens. I love that Brits say excuse me and are politely cynical. Only in the northern countries I've encountered Europeans who trust their government and society and have a positive world view.

[Paul der Krake]

The UK is one of the most defeatist places I've ever lived (for a summer internship, later was married to a Brit for a decade). The class system, the anti-immigrant rhetoric, the snobbishness. It's hard on the psyche and can make it difficult to remain positive or see a way out of one's situation.

You know it never truly hit me how much cynicism there is in the UK until I left, especially among the overeducated but underemployed. They give the French a run for their money, who are the reigning world champions of confusing sarcasm for wit.

When I first landed in the US south it took me a while to adjust to everyone being so overtly friendly. I mean, Americans smile as you walk past them in the street, who does that?!

Isn't that just how we Europeans are? I've spent quite a lot of time in the UK and people there don't seem more cynical than in the Netherlands, Belgium or France or other European countries. It's funny that the #1 complaint we have about Americans is that they are so friendly, we complain about how fake that all is. I have always liked working with Americans exactly because of that - why be unfriendly for no reason? I actually like the politeness of the Brits too. In my country people will try to run you over with their bike if you don't cross the street fast enough and then shout at you after it happens. I love that Brits say excuse me and are politely cynical. Only in the northern countries I've encountered Europeans who trust their government and society and have a positive world view.

I think there's a general social pressure to not be seen as naive, and it breeds skepticism and a negative outlook. In Russia it's even more extreme, where smiling for no good reason is associated with being a simpleton, so it seems like they never smile in public.

Sarcasm is easy, I'm guilty of it myself.

[helloyou]

@Zikoris I just told my friend in chemistry about your suggestion to do some math tutoring and she said it wouldn't work because she's not qualified and she hasn't done that for a while. She wants ultimately to ascend to a higher paying job and want to start working in data analyse to move into business consultant later on.

However, for now, she needs a job to pay for her rent and would take anything. She applies everywhere and send CV every day. Even asking me for recommendations. I don't think motivation is lacking here, it's really the lack of opportunity. However it's true we're in the middle of a pandemy and a lot of my friends are jobless at the moment.


Also, for many of you who give me encouragement to try saving, I'd just clarify that I'm not a low-income earner. I'm actually close to being FIRE but for most of my friends it's like talking alien language.


Of course it needs motivation and dedication to really want to make money. However most want to do a job they like. They do not want to work just for money. Many are happy working as waiter. And for most when I tell them to go into better paying and easy to find roles such as IT, recruiter, sales, etc. it's usually not what they imagine themself doing. They don't see themself able to do it, and they don't see themself happy if they were to do it, especially they have to put extra effort to get to it.


I think most of my friends just want to enjoy life after work. After a 10h shift in the restaurant, the last thing they want is to do another job or study something else. They want to meet friends and relax. On the weekend they'll go to parties or visit the country. They have plans and don't see the value to work hard most of your life in order to benefit from it when you're old.

I think that's why most people looking for FIRE are high-income earners. Because we already earn more naturally and it's easy for us to save. We don't have to work 2 jobs + weekend in order to save more. We don't have to worry about our next paycheck to pay our rent, we wouldn't have to take a job at any cost if we're jobless, we don't have to make extra sacrifices in order to save money. And we still have time for leisure, time for us, including our evening and weekends off while saving at high rate. But not them.


So I get why I'm talking alien language to them, and why they just see me as a greedy person just thinking about money. They just want to have a happy life and can't imagine themself working day and night to get this extra cash to invest in a very distant future.

[Zikoris]

@Zikoris I just told my friend in chemistry about your suggestion to do some math tutoring and she said it wouldn't work because she's not qualified and she hasn't done that for a while. She wants ultimately to ascend to a higher paying job and want to start working in data analyse to move into business consultant later on.

However, for now, she needs a job to pay for her rent and would take anything. She applies everywhere and send CV every day. Even asking me for recommendations. I don't think motivation is lacking here, it's really the lack of opportunity. However it's true we're in the middle of a pandemy and a lot of my friends are jobless at the moment.

Unless your education system there is absolute shit, I'm pretty sure someone with a chemistry degree is more than qualified to tutor 13 year olds who are having trouble balancing chemical equations or doing high school level math. I know a lot of math/science majors who do tutoring in some capacity as either a full time or part time job, and they have literally the same qualifications as this person. But this is a really good example of why people like your friend don't get ahead - they come up with every excuse in the book to not try something different, even when what they're doing clearly is an abject failure. The results of her current strategy seem pretty darn abysmal, so why not just burn it all to the ground and do something totally different?

[Steeze]

That’s the whole point though- you can’t have it both ways. You choose to get off that 10 hour shift and go relax instead of pursuing FIRE. RE takes extra effort and sacrifice. You can’t expect RE and not be willing to sacrifice for it.

I was working 2x-3x restaurant and landscaping jobs before I went to college - 80-100 hrs/wk. Then I worked full time after class while in school. I tripled up jobs in the summer. When I got my first engineering job I worked late into the night to prove myself. I studied for my professional license after work and on weekends for months.

I once dreamed of going to college so I could afford to only have one job. I lived in my car and was on food stamps for a while. I got by because of good people who took me on and kept me going. Today I live better than I ever dreamed and will retire by 40 and can easily save 60-70% of my income.

It is possible. But not if you get off your 10hr shift and go relax and enjoy life. You have to be willing to do the things your peers don’t want to do. It’s not easy to skip party after party, skip game after game, skip dinner & chores to study. Disappear into multiple jobs and lose sleep for months on end until you just can’t take it anymore. It’s a strain on every relationship and the very health of your body and mind. For me though, that’s what it took to get out, but I got out. My friends back home are still getting off work and going to relax and enjoy life.

I don’t even think of it as RE - for me, I just think of it as squeezing 40 years of working into 20 years.

[Zikoris]

That’s the whole point though- you can’t have it both ways. You choose to get off that 10 hour shift and go relax instead of pursuing FIRE. RE takes extra effort and sacrifice. You can’t expect RE and not be willing to sacrifice for it.

I was working 2x-3x restaurant and landscaping jobs before I went to college - 80-100 hrs/wk. Then I worked full time after class while in school. I tripled up jobs in the summer. When I got my first engineering job I worked late into the night to prove myself. I studied for my professional license after work and on weekends for months.

I once dreamed of going to college so I could afford to only have one job. I lived in my car and was on food stamps for a while. I got by because of good people who took me on and kept me going. Today I live better than I ever dreamed and will retire by 40 and can easily save 60-70% of my income.

It is possible. But not if you get off your 10hr shift and go relax and enjoy life. You have to be willing to do the things your peers don’t want to do. It’s not easy to skip party after party, skip game after game, skip dinner & chores to study. Disappear into multiple jobs and lose sleep for months on end until you just can’t take it anymore. It’s a strain on every relationship and the very health of your body and mind. For me though, that’s what it took to get out, but I got out. My friends back home are still getting off work and going to relax and enjoy life.

I don’t even think of it as RE - for me, I just think of it as squeezing 40 years of working into 20 years.

Well, technically you can do FIRE without most of that stuff. We're on track for FIRE somewhere around 35 and have never done any of that (work crazy hours, bust our butts, sacrifice, etc). I work a 40 hour week and my boyfriend works about 20-ish. We also easily save 60-70% of our income, but are able to relax and travel a lot as well. So there's definitely such thing as SlackerFIRE, for people who like to take it easy instead of doing the whole work hard thing.

[helloyou]

Yes i'm part of the slackerfire as well. I never worked on evening or weekends. I do about 40h/week max and never looked for 2nd job.

I live in coolness but being simple with needs I can save 70% of income which naturally allows for FIRE

[BookLoverL]

I myself do some maths tuition as one of the things I do. In the UK you do not need any sort of qualification to be a private tutor (though obviously if you have some that you can write on your advert, you will be more attractive to clients). It did take me a little bit to talk myself into it though, despite having a maths degree, so with your friend it might be that they feel they are either: too rusty on what was on the syllabus; or they know the content but they don't know how to explain it to someone that doesn't immediately get it (and this is important when working with low ability students); or that they don't feel they have the marketing skills to attract clients. All these things are learnable, though. So maybe now that you've suggested the idea they might come around to it in the future.

[Much Fishing to Do]

So I got it all wrong. It can be done in 25 years. But it's still terribly long.

So is FIRE not possible for low earning people? The only way she could reach FIRE before very old age would be to increase revenue?

I can't agree with the conclusion here from the stated assumption and results.  Assuming everything said and the results of hitting FI in 25 years, how do we end up talking about FIRE not being possible and "very old age".  Though not at the extreme end, I think retiring at say 48 is a FIRE success story that would astonish the vast majority of people.  Though the fact I'm 48 may be causing me to not accept that as "very old"....

[Steeze]

That’s the whole point though- you can’t have it both ways. You choose to get off that 10 hour shift and go relax instead of pursuing FIRE. RE takes extra effort and sacrifice. You can’t expect RE and not be willing to sacrifice for it.

I was working 2x-3x restaurant and landscaping jobs before I went to college - 80-100 hrs/wk. Then I worked full time after class while in school. I tripled up jobs in the summer. When I got my first engineering job I worked late into the night to prove myself. I studied for my professional license after work and on weekends for months.

I once dreamed of going to college so I could afford to only have one job. I lived in my car and was on food stamps for a while. I got by because of good people who took me on and kept me going. Today I live better than I ever dreamed and will retire by 40 and can easily save 60-70% of my income.

It is possible. But not if you get off your 10hr shift and go relax and enjoy life. You have to be willing to do the things your peers don’t want to do. It’s not easy to skip party after party, skip game after game, skip dinner & chores to study. Disappear into multiple jobs and lose sleep for months on end until you just can’t take it anymore. It’s a strain on every relationship and the very health of your body and mind. For me though, that’s what it took to get out, but I got out. My friends back home are still getting off work and going to relax and enjoy life.

I don’t even think of it as RE - for me, I just think of it as squeezing 40 years of working into 20 years.

Well, technically you can do FIRE without most of that stuff. We're on track for FIRE somewhere around 35 and have never done any of that (work crazy hours, bust our butts, sacrifice, etc). I work a 40 hour week and my boyfriend works about 20-ish. We also easily save 60-70% of our income, but are able to relax and travel a lot as well. So there's definitely such thing as SlackerFIRE, for people who like to take it easy instead of doing the whole work hard thing.

Yeah not saying you have to obviously, plenty of people don’t have to. But for some slice of the population they will have to. That slice is usually the people that think it is impossible.

I come from a low income house in a rural area, most of my friends dropped out of high school and are either alcoholics, drug addicts, or both. Almost no one I grew up with went to college and anyone who did went 100k-150k in debt to do it. Most of those kids are now failing financially too. My parents didn’t care about my academics and didn’t encourage me to go to colleges due to the costs. They taught me to get a second job and a third one when you have the energy to do so. Skipping school to work extra shifts doesn’t help you get scholarships either.

Just trying to illustrate that it isn’t always easy for everyone, it’s not all slackerFIRE. You read these forums and it’s easy to say everyone has a high paying job, everyone is smart, everyone comes from money, everyone had help, etc. then look at your own life and think you have none of that.

If you had bad grades in high school, barely graduated, work minimum wage, and come from a poor family in a depressed area - it can still be done. Don’t be a victim of your circumstances, that is the message.

[SwordGuy]

What I'm about to relate is based upon 2016 data, but the general truth of it is still intact.   

So, let's suppose the OP's friend, who is saving $6000 a year, has a $0 net worth at this moment.   

In one year, ignoring investment returns, they'll have a net worth of $6000.

Doesn't sound like much, does it?

Where would you guess that would put them on a percentile of household net worth in the USA?

Come on, guess!

Ok, ready to find out?

Spoiler: show

It's the 21.61th percentile.   That's right, a net worth of just $6000 would mean their net worth is better than 1 out of every 5 people they meet in the USA.

Let's look at two years of savings, again ignoring investment returns.  That's just $12,000.   Where would they be on the household net worth percentile range?

Spoiler: show

The 26.46th percentile!   They would have a higher net worth than 1 out of every 4 people they meet in the USA!

They would also have enough money to replace a car or pay for a medical expense or move across country for better job opportunities.

[Zikoris]

Just trying to illustrate that it isn’t always easy for everyone, it’s not all slackerFIRE. You read these forums and it’s easy to say everyone has a high paying job, everyone is smart, everyone comes from money, everyone had help, etc. then look at your own life and think you have none of that.

If you had bad grades in high school, barely graduated, work minimum wage, and come from a poor family in a depressed area - it can still be done. Don’t be a victim of your circumstances, that is the message.

For what it's worth, my own situation wasn't too far off of that - no high paying job, no college/training, no help, no rich family. I did have good grades in high school, but I don't remember anybody asking or caring about that after I graduated. I made barely over minimum wage when I started working towards FIRE, and grew up in some really economically depressed areas (which is why when I turned 18 I bought a one way bus ticket somewhere better).

I think the key thing that makes slackerFIRE possible is high intelligence, because you have to be able to take a system that normally involves hard work and basically re-engineer it to be automated and effortless. But I suppose it's a specific type of intelligence - you have to specifically be strong in efficiency, optimization, and systems design.

Though come to think of it, I suppose there would be a way around that - get someone who is good at those things to design a system for you, and then just follow it. That's what my boyfriend did, lol. Level 2 SlackerFIRE.

[Rosy]

I see your point guys toward working your ass off to increase income and that skill are transferable and that people can earn more but it's not always the case.
Most of my friends are expats. SO WHAT?
SNIP
 I'll only share example of friends who've been doing similar low page wage for at least 5 years AND have been talking to earn more and change career for years: THERE IS YOUR KEY PROBLEM - TALKING BUT NO ACTION IN OVER 5 YEARS???

1. My veterinarian friend who could only find at best assistance pharmacist job at £8-9/h. He looked around for a while and couldn't find anything. After 7 years trying in the UK he left and planning to take a training to become nurse which would at least give average wage. But really... this is not optimal.
FORGET OPTIMAL - YOU WANT IMPROVEMENT THEN YOU MOVE ON TO THE NEXT STEP - NURSES WITH CERTAIN CERTIFICATIONS EARN CONSIDERABLY MORE. WTH DID HE WAIT 7 YEARS IN THE FIRST PLACE?
SNIP

Maybe its that hard because I live in london and rent is for many of them around 50% of their income. And that's just by having a room which cost about £600/month. That's a lot for someone working in a shop earning £1200/month. Then transport is about £120/month. So if you just add up living cost + travel there isn't much left to be saved.
- ONE LADY IN NY MADE PASTA AT HOME WHEN IT BECAME UNAVAILABLE IN THE STORES AND PEOPLE PICKED IT UP AT HER DOORSTEP IN THE CITY. SHE IS NOW RUNNING A SUCCESSFUL SMALL BUSINESS VIA FACEBOOK OF ALL THINGS.

I actually have a story of one of my friend who studied administration and couldn't find anything (good) in london. So she ended up working in a bakery shop in central london. But because she didn't want to live too far from work she took a SHARED ROOM to be able to get to work under 30min. Can you imagine? Sharing your room with someone just in order to be close to work and making minimum wage?
YES, I CAN - I WOULD CALL IT A SMART MOVE - OPTIMIZING HOUSING AND TRANSPORTATION COSTS. BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SHE WAS UNABLE TO TURN THIS INTO A TRUE ADVANTAGE FOR HER - HOME IN 30 MIN GIVES YOU TIME TO STUDY OR DO A LITTLE SIDE GIG!

It was so hard for her that after years of living like that when she finally found a job as a receptionist (which isn't really paid more) it was a blessing for her and since then she grab on this job and make sure she stays in there. I DO UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS DIFFICULT BUT THIS ALSO TELLS ME THAT SHE GAVE UP. I'VE ACTUALLY PARLAYED A RECEPTIONIST JOB INTO AN ACCOUNTING JOB THROUGH NETWORKING - IT IS THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AND TALK WITH PEOPLE:). YOUR PERSONAL LINKED-IN:).

So its not that they don't want or that they're lazy, but life circumstance prevent them to 'ascend' toward a better career.
CIRCUMSTANCES PRESENT "TEMPORARY" OBSTACLES - NOTHING MORE - YOU FIGURE OUT A WAY AROUND.
NOBODY 'ASCENDS' :) - YOU TAKE BABY STEPS AND MAY HAVE TO SACRIFICE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. REMEMBER THIS IS NOT FOREVER.

Of course, there are always some of these odd job like deliveroo cycle where they could earn a bit more (maybe £10-12/h?) but none of them want to do that as this is neither a long term career and its also quite physical/dangerous....
I WAS A MYSTERY SHOPPER FOR A FEW YEARS - I GOT FREE HAIRCUTS, FREE FOOD, TICKETS, GASOLINE, CLOTHING, AND EXTRA INCOME. ODD JOBS ARE WHAT YOU MAKE OF THEM JUST LIKE LOW WAGE JOBS. I LIKED MYSTERY SHOPS BECAUSE I WAS INDEPENDENT I COULD ACCEPT OR REFUSE ANY JOB AND PLAN MY OWN ROUTE ON THE WAY HOME FROM WORK OR WHILE RUNNING ERRANDS.

So open for ideas if its so easy to increase earnings I could tell my friends if its so easy! - NOTHING WORTH HAVING IS EASY TO COME BY!
EVERY TEN - FIFTY DOLLARS YOU PUT AWAY COUNTS!

Part one of two:).

[Rosy]

OK then - let me be perfectly clear. Your "can't do" attitude is sheer and utter BS. None of your stories matter because they are all failures.
Start looking for success stories instead and become inspired and encouraged by them.
Your perspective is skewed:).

I know a lady who makes magnets for Walmart - seasonally, at her kitchen table. $750 x 4 = $3,000. That represents two and a half months worth of income as per your 1200 pound a month income example.
It isn't hard and it isn't rocket science - but in your world it isn't worth it, amirite? That is where you are wrong.
Then you take the next step:
That $3K this year still earns 3.5% interest in a CD - an extra $100 with no work involved at all. It can easily function as an Emergency Fund and during Covid there is no penalty for early withdrawal.

All you need to do is find a way to get to six months' worth of your current income and you increased your income by 50% perhaps more depending on the extra benefits you might find along the way.
I've done inventory and I've done store displays, I've been a mystery shopper and a freelancer, I've visited every car dealership in town because they gave out $50 Visa cards for test drives - took me less than 20 minutes, but it was quick and easy and I was happy to add $300 to my stash.
I've worked online for three months for a measly $1500 dollars - I will not repeat that particular experiment:).
I've sold pictures I took on vacation and saved - sold - traded so much that my trip was free and I came home with an extra thousand bucks.
These days I mostly do a few things online for anywhere to $50 to $600 a month - for fun, I no longer "need" to earn extra. 

It is my opinion that for low(er) income people it truly becomes a lifestyle, optimizing everything becomes second nature.
High-income earners do have it much easier, no argument there.
 
WTH did it take your veterinary friend seven!!! years to realize he needed a different strategy?!
It really doesn't matter what country you live in, well paying professional jobs are not that easy to come by. I know from personal experience that nobody in a foreign country cares a whit about your credentials in another country - you may have to start from zero again, but hey, your smarts and your good education will get you through it all again with flying colors.

I am beginning to think that you and your friends wouldn't recognize an opportunity if it hit them over the head.
The answer is always - go for it anyway.

Life can hit you hard - sometimes you lose everything and have to start over.
It is even less fun when you are older and still in shock or depressed over what horrible things just happened to you.

Try starting from scratch at 48 in another country with nothing but two suitcases, no job, no prospects.
That is an age when it becomes difficult in the western world to find a new job, much less a new career.

I took it as a hint from the universe to pursue a different path. 
Two years later I had a new degree and ran my own consulting business in an entirely different career - one I enjoyed even more.

Expats - age - language whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Believe me, there were plenty of times when I thought I'd never make it.
Perseverance is the key to FI - financial freedom was all I ever wanted.

I had FI once before and lost it all and well, I did again:). Twenty years later I got it all - FI and a comfortable retirement.
I did a ton of little things that other people couldn't be bothered with because I encountered health issues that limited my earning potential. 

I'm sure I am not the only one who found this forum and decided well, this might just help me to improve my finances.
I never imagined it would actually take me all the way to FI once more - I had no expectation of ever building assets again. 

So don't give me this long litany about why it is impossible to FIRE at age 35 - I say hogwash.
We all have our troubles but we also have opportunities if only we were clever enough to recognize them and act upon them.

... really excellent points made by everyone - it shows the diversity of who we are as a group and proves it can be done.
 Just look at Imma in the UK I have nothing but admiration for that girl:).
Zikoris I could never live like you do but you made a success out of it.
Sword Guy is killer - wish I had his math skills.

[helloyou]

@Rosy thanks its a very motivational message. I was talking to one of my friend today about looking at companies accounts to understand which ones will succeed and buy their stock for the long term.

She had some interest to buy stock and saw some of her friend making good money and want to do the same.

But I told her its gambling to just buy on rumor and its a perfectly good way to make money but she has to put work into it.

She's been working in a small shop for years and have been talking to do something paying more for a long time.


But when I told her she gotta do analysis to pick stock she said she has a life and that she can't spend her days looking at numbers! She was about to give up!!


So when I looked at your feedback I realised her mindset was wrong and told her that she has to work her ass off to succeed and things can't come to a plate for her!

It was maybe too direct but she's got to realise this is not easy and needs to be dedicated, do some sacrifice to be successful

[helloyou]

@SwordGuy yes very good example. I'll use these next time I talk to fire to a friend!! Thanks

@Much Fishing to Do yes retiring before 50 is stil an achievement. But I think for most of them it doesn't worth the sacrifice to achieve that. My friends want to live their life and enjoy their youth. I think it'd be the case for the majority of them actually. Their excuse is to say they can't see themself not working and would be bored lol, so no point to put extra effort to achieve it

[Freedomin5]

Buying individual stock is still gambling. Tell her to buy a Vanguard index fund (or the U.K. equivalent).

[SKL-HOU]

You say your friends aren’t lazy but they absolutely sound lazy. I understand the challenges of immigrant lifestyle but there are plenty of very successful immigrants. If your friends don’t want to put in the work to be successful, they will not “ascend” anywhere. You think 25 years is too long but the alternative may be never retiring or retiring much later. Having an excuse to every suggestion of why they can’t is not the attitude for successful people or people who want to FIRE. Maybe there are legitimate reasons like language barrier for tutoring for example but they can then find a different option instead of giving up. If they are happy with their current situation and don’t want to do more, then they just need to come to terms with doing this for a lot longer. Like your friend who waited for 7 years for nursing degree, they may wake up 7 years later and decide they are now ready but they have lost precious time. But at the end of the day, you can only give them guidance, can’t decide for them.

 I would avoid being too tangled in their financials like stocks or jobs because people who are in this mindset will blame you later. If that stock ends up doing really well and you stopped your friend from buying it, then it will be your fault that she didnt make more (even though it could also very easily go the other way). If you steer them towards a good job but they end up getting laid off, it will be your fault (in their mind).

[Imma]

@Rosy aww you are too kind! I think your story really shows how important mindset / personal choices are. You did it twice and that's no coincidence. I think having health issues could "help" too, in a way. Of course they limit your earning potential and life choices in general, but I've always known that now is the time to save money because I may not be able to work tomorrow - unlike some of my peers who say they're not going to get serious about retirement until  they are 50 (which is a pretty stupid time to get serious about retirement because A your investment horizon is short and B they and their college age kids will have gotten used to a lavish lifestyle by then and cutting back is really going to hurt) . I've also learned to budget my energy and that's quite similar to budgeting money. Energy is limited and you can't take out loans.

I'm naturally frugal and even as a kid I always wondered why my dad was so stupid with money, buying unnecessary things one week and not having money for bills the next. My mother always found a way to pay the bills in the end, but she worked very hard to support a middle aged toddler with tantrums. I always knew I never wanted to become dependant on a man.

I really admire someone like @Zikoris who figured everything out at such a young age. She's lightyears ahead of me financially even though we're about the same age. My story is more like @Steeze 's story. I knew what I wanted and I tried hard but the first years of adulthood were a challenge. It took me some years to figure out how to spot & grab opportunities. But seriously, tell your friends, the first 10.000 is the hardest part. Every £/€/$ after that is a little bit easier than the one before. I know it's a cliché but it's the truth.

@Paul der Krake now I finally know why my Russian friend always looks a bit bored in pictures! I never knew that. She didn't even smile in her graduation picture, it looked more like a passport picture.

[Rosy]

@Imma - agreed, mindset is important.
However, in my case, the health issues almost derailed everything - I was furious and mad at the world!:) Just when I was doing so well FI slid out of my grasp. When I wasn't in pain or depressed I acted out with destructive behaviors which resulted in resignation and debt accumulation to the tune of $16K.
I told myself if I was condemned to days of mysterious pain and no way to ever hold onto my business much less hold a regular job I might as well give up and indulge myself with a gemstone and jewelry collection.
Bad move:) but eventually, I accepted my illness and the consequences and paid off off the debt - no more poor me financial destruction:).

I found MMM looking for help with Mr. R's retirement plans but I was the one who found my tribe and fresh motivation.
It was Sword Guy and a Former Player who helped me realize I needed to set aside emotions and concentrate on the math, it never lies!
They were the catalyst that inspired me to build assets.

Financially, my saving grace in retirement is the pensions I receive. They gave me the freedom to do what I wanted and still build assets if I was careful and optimized the hell out of everything. So the day I "officially" retired I started saving - why not?:).
Who would have thought one could go from barely hoping for $5K in savings to $100K to $200K?+..... It worked!

I am also immensely grateful to my past-self that I held onto a guaranteed, affordable health insurance plan that was part of an annuity benefit. Who would have ever thought this benefit would turn out to become so critical in today's world? I'm on their best plan now, but in the past I struggled to pay for their cheapest plans.

But - due to my age, I didn't want to "just" build assets, when I still had a long list of goals to accomplish. YOLO - Balance.
At that time I had just turned 65 and Mr. R. aged 52.
It was important to me to enjoy life and do a whole series of things while I could, a 3-mo bucket list trip to Europe was just one of them. I made it my mission to check off a long list, one by one, incl things like helping family and friends, car(s), shoring up EFs and elective surgeries... boom - done.
Suddenly, I had even more money to plow into my assets - imagine that, it felt a little weird tbh.

It was satisfying and gave me peace. It took away that feeling of failure I carried with me for having had it all and losing it all.
I will probably never be my definition of rich, but I am finally FI again and secure in retirement.

Life is good, I have a lot to be grateful for, most of all for finding Mr. R. around the time I went back to university at age 50.
He supports all my crazy endeavors and is as steady and pragmatic as they come.
I got lucky:).

I'm definitely not who MMM had in mind when he devised his plan for reaching FI on steroids via a high salary-double income in privileged circumstances.
But hey, here we all are anyway making it all happen despite our differences in circumstances.

Fire isn't a new idea at all. A man or woman of independent means has always been something to aspire to - in every century.

[vand]

@Zikoris I just told my friend in chemistry about your suggestion to do some math tutoring and she said it wouldn't work because she's not qualified and she hasn't done that for a while. She wants ultimately to ascend to a higher paying job and want to start working in data analyse to move into business consultant later on.

However, for now, she needs a job to pay for her rent and would take anything. She applies everywhere and send CV every day. Even asking me for recommendations. I don't think motivation is lacking here, it's really the lack of opportunity. However it's true we're in the middle of a pandemy and a lot of my friends are jobless at the moment.


Also, for many of you who give me encouragement to try saving, I'd just clarify that I'm not a low-income earner. I'm actually close to being FIRE but for most of my friends it's like talking alien language.


Of course it needs motivation and dedication to really want to make money. However most want to do a job they like. They do not want to work just for money. Many are happy working as waiter. And for most when I tell them to go into better paying and easy to find roles such as IT, recruiter, sales, etc. it's usually not what they imagine themself doing. They don't see themself able to do it, and they don't see themself happy if they were to do it, especially they have to put extra effort to get to it.


I think most of my friends just want to enjoy life after work. After a 10h shift in the restaurant, the last thing they want is to do another job or study something else. They want to meet friends and relax. On the weekend they'll go to parties or visit the country. They have plans and don't see the value to work hard most of your life in order to benefit from it when you're old.

I think that's why most people looking for FIRE are high-income earners. Because we already earn more naturally and it's easy for us to save. We don't have to work 2 jobs + weekend in order to save more. We don't have to worry about our next paycheck to pay our rent, we wouldn't have to take a job at any cost if we're jobless, we don't have to make extra sacrifices in order to save money. And we still have time for leisure, time for us, including our evening and weekends off while saving at high rate. But not them.


So I get why I'm talking alien language to them, and why they just see me as a greedy person just thinking about money. They just want to have a happy life and can't imagine themself working day and night to get this extra cash to invest in a very distant future.

As MMM wrote in: most people will find excuses for why they can't make it happen, rather than setting about figuring out how to do it.

Spock from Star Trek would posit something like this: if you want something different from what most people have then you have to be prepared to do something different to what most people do. 

Earn much more and/or spend much less and/or or invest much better, and ideally some combination of all three.

People can easily get defensive when you suggest they should try to increase their income, as if you're insinuating that they're lazy and not very successful, but these are just the numbers and the facts behind FI, as the trendy new saying goes... facts don't care about your feelings.

a fairly recent uk thread on the topic https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/uk-tax-discussion/fire-on-a-low-income/

[toocold]

Can I just state the obvious that if a person earns a low income that can only cover their essential expenses, and the person is unable or unwilling to change, they can't FIRE?

The big if is, will the person change?  Most people start in minimum wage jobs.

So I get why I'm talking alien language to them, and why they just see me as a greedy person just thinking about money. They just want to have a happy life and can't imagine themself working day and night to get this extra cash to invest in a very distant future.

This is the biggest issue.  They can't see it.  They don't want to see it.  So, why try until they want to change?  Change happens from within.  Perhaps your friends are the happy fisherman from the story about the MBA and the Mexican fisherman?

[helloyou]

Can I just state the obvious that if a person earns a low income that can only cover their essential expenses, and the person is unable or unwilling to change, they can't FIRE?

The big if is, will the person change?  Most people start in minimum wage jobs.

So I get why I'm talking alien language to them, and why they just see me as a greedy person just thinking about money. They just want to have a happy life and can't imagine themself working day and night to get this extra cash to invest in a very distant future.

This is the biggest issue.  They can't see it.  They don't want to see it.  So, why try until they want to change?  Change happens from within.  Perhaps your friends are the happy fisherman from the story about the MBA and the Mexican fisherman?

I know several people for whom well being is the most important thing, and they are happy to spend as much as needed to have the necessary comfort.

I live in London so renting your own flat is most of the time not a good option for single person. You have to expect monthly £1500 to pay for it. And even if you are slightly above average in terms of salary it's half of your income gone.

I have one friend who was slightly above average income, probably around £2500-2700 net/month. She never had any saving and was just annoyed when I was talking about buying a flat in London because she said she would never afford that... She was also extremely unhappy about her job and wanted to change her career but couldn't because she needed her paycheck to pay the bills and couldn't afford months of re-conversion without salary...

I tried to tell her to spend less and save, but it was just ending in her despising me. That I was just interested in money and that she couldn't reduce her living cost. That she would never live in a shared flat again. She would never cycle to work (the tube she pays is like £200/month in London). That she's already cautious about her spending and all her cost are necessary.

Really, I thought it was impossible to get her a better future and that she would be stuck to this. I was a bit sad tbh. But so is her choice...

[Rosy]

Can I just state the obvious that if a person earns a low income that can only cover their essential expenses, and the person is unable or unwilling to change, they can't FIRE?

The big if is, will the person change?  Most people start in minimum wage jobs.

So I get why I'm talking alien language to them, and why they just see me as a greedy person just thinking about money. They just want to have a happy life and can't imagine themself working day and night to get this extra cash to invest in a very distant future.

This is the biggest issue.  They can't see it.  They don't want to see it.  So, why try until they want to change?  Change happens from within.  Perhaps your friends are the happy fisherman from the story about the MBA and the Mexican fisherman?

Agreed, change happens from within - usually prompted by an unpleasant experience or an AHA moment.

I like that story about the MBA and the Mexican fisherman - but you see, I want it all. I like a challenge and financial security, but I also want to be able to relax and enjoy life.
Balance in life is a good thing.

That MBA dude might die tomorrow and never live to hang out at the beach with a glass of wine or he might retire to set up a foundation and help millions.
That happy Mexican fisherman will be devastated when the next hurricane blows through and crushes his boat, his house and his livelihood or he might get lucky and live a contented simple life.

Life is unpredictable, it can be cruel and unfair and often surprisingly good. You always have choices but then you have to live with the consequences. 

toocold is quite right - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Not everyone is interested in fire or even grasps the concept.

One thing I noticed is that there is a subset of people on this forum at all income levels, high and low, who experienced poverty or a great loss - they are all hellbent on financial security - they are driven by their fear of sleeping under the bridge (the often touted inner bag lady).
They want options that only FI can provide.
Fear is the best motivator of all but cold hard math is second - it is like a splash of cold water.

@helloyou - sometimes in life we reach a cross road and we leave our old friends behind and enter a different phase in life.
It is a natural process that happens over time when you drift towards a different life than them.

People who are focused on defending why they can't do something have closed their minds to the possibility that they can.

[24andfrugal]

I see your point guys toward working your ass off to increase income and that skill are transferable and that people can earn more but it's not always the case.

Most of my friends are expats. And I have very few making the average wage. They either are in the right industry (IT) and make above average, or they are in the wrong industry (travel, social science, chemistry, etc.) and are stuck to low paying wage due to competition and only few of them make average income (i don t even talk about good wage)

And I'm happy to share what they do, maybe you guys could have idea of how they could increase their earning. I'll only share example of friends who've been doing similar low page wage for at least 5 years AND have been talking to earn more and change career for years:
1. My veterinarian friend who could only find at best assistance pharmacist job at £8-9/h. He looked around for a while and couldn't find anything. After 7 years trying in the UK he left and planning to take a training to become nurse which would at least give average wage. But really... this is not optimal.

2. Another one working in a sale position selling carpet. Earning minimum wage + commission. Still fairly low wage. Studied travelling and is looking at her next career for a LONG time. Hasn't found it yet.

3. Friends who studied chemistry and worked for some time in the field in brasil until decided to move to london.  Have been doing small office job and shop job all paying around £8/h and never managed to get a job paying more.

I have more and more stories. In reality a majority of my friends are low income earner... unless they work in IT or finance.

I see them struggling to get a better wage job and regularly complaining about it and as well applying for job.

Maybe its that hard because I live in london and rent is for many of them around 50% of their income. And that's just by having a room which cost about £600/month. That's a lot for someone working in a shop earning £1200/month. Then transport is about £120/month. So if you just add up living cost + travel there isn't much left to be saved.


I actually have a story of one of my friend who studied administration and couldn't find anything (good) in london. So she ended up working in a bakery shop in central london. But because she didn't want to live too far from work she took a SHARED ROOM to be able to get to work under 30min. Can you imagine? Sharing your room with someone just in order to be close to work and making minimum wage?

It was so hard for her that after years of living like that when she finally found a job as a receptionist (which isn't really paid more) it was a blessing for her and since then she grab on this job and make sure she stays in there.

So its not that they don't want or that they're lazy, but life circumstance prevent them to 'ascend' toward a better career.

Of course, there are always some of these odd job like deliveroo cycle where they could earn a bit more (maybe £10-12/h?) but none of them want to do that as this is neither a long term career and its also quite physical/dangerous....


So open for ideas if its so easy to increase earnings I could tell my friends if its so easy!

I'm not in the UK (I am in the US) so maybe I just don't understand how things work there. You say your friends are expats. Is there a reason they moved somewhere their credentials were not recognized and they couldn't find work? Is there a reason your veterinarian friend didn't find a vet job in the area his degree is from, or find some way to get cross-certified in the UK?

Is there a reason your friends choose to live in London instead of somewhere outside of the city? I don't know how it is in the UK but in the US there are tons of small or medium-sized cities that are considerably more affordable than the large and expensive ones, and living outside of those is even cheaper.

FIRE requires perseverance, forethought, ingenuity, sacrifice. Your friends do not sound like the type of people to think outside of the box and be open to different strategies to better their lots. For those people, any kind of financial stability (let alone FIRE) is likely to be difficult.

[helloyou]

@24andfrugal yes my veterinatian friend is from romania. And over there the average wage for this job is less than the minimum wage in uk.

So for him, it makes sense to move here to earn more and have a better future. Even if it's a minimum wage it would be better than what he could get there.

There aren't any cross certifications. The medical field is very protectionist (i'd say the same in the USA btw) and he would have to do again the whole study to be able to work legitimately here. If it wasn't the case, I think the protected professions in the medical and legal field would be full of ex-pats!

So he didn't feel it worth it to spend 4+ years to graduate again and that makes absolutely sense.


Also, my friends move to London to find a job mostly because its easier to find here (load of gig jobs) and outside its not as simple.

In London, you can just walk around from pub to pub and get a job that way. Most opportunities are here!

And when you earn minimum wage, it doesn't make much difference to work in London or outside. Renting a room would eat half of your wage in both case. And being further away will also cost you more in transport


Uk is usually the most logical destination for most European ex-pats because the language is already known and salary either higher or equivalent to their home country. Its less true now with the pound so low but 10 years ago we had all countries coming in.

[Padonak]

Get out of the UK (after the pandemic ends). Move to a low cost of living country.
Two options:
-Teach English (either offline or online or both) - easier but pays less
-Teach at a private international school - harder but pays more

[Imma]

@helloyou I have a friend in the same situation who now makes a good living as a dog groomer. No, it's not the same, but they are working with animals and making a good living.

I'm not sure London is really worth it though. Jobs in retail, fastfood, pubs, etc can be found all around the country and rents are high everywhere but not as insane as London. I'm not talking about the Welsh countryside but places like Leeds or Manchester.

I also personally know several recent immigrants who work in factory jobs. Yes, the work is terrible, but probably not worse than retail. But many factories have strong unions, the base pay is above minimum wage and you get paid extra for night/weekend shifts. If you have brains there are options for career progress (shift leader, foreperson, planning). Where I live those unskilled jobs pay about €1850-2000 and a room in a shared house is like €500.

[Zikoris]

I'd also think about either a dog walking or pet sitting business for the vet. I would think having a background like that would be really good and let you charge more premium rates, particularly for sitting - a lot of sitters are not comfortable with providing medical care like, say, insulin injections, so people with pets that need specialized care often pay a lot more.

I actually might start pet-sitting myself post-retirement, because I just love animals so much and want to cuddle all the cats.

[ender]

It's a little weird for me to label "life circumstance" the cause for inability to increase income/savings, when someone traveled abroad to live in one of the more expensive cities in the world.

[helloyou]

Get out of the UK (after the pandemic ends). Move to a low cost of living country.
Two options:
-Teach English (either offline or online or both) - easier but pays less
-Teach at a private international school - harder but pays more

English teaching job is a priviledge of native english speakers. For most of my friends who are expats and non native, it wouldn't be as easy and they'd need certifications as well as not be able to find this type of job that easily

[Imma]

I'd also think about either a dog walking or pet sitting business for the vet. I would think having a background like that would be really good and let you charge more premium rates, particularly for sitting - a lot of sitters are not comfortable with providing medical care like, say, insulin injections, so people with pets that need specialized care often pay a lot more.

I actually might start pet-sitting myself post-retirement, because I just love animals so much and want to cuddle all the cats.

My friend does pet homeopathy stuff and massages and other things that I don't know much about other than that it brings in €€€. I hadn't even thought about pet sitting pets that need medical care but that's a brilliant idea.

I don't know how passionate your friend is about being a vet and what the future job prospects would be like, but my own doctor came to our country as a refugee and straight out of med school, learned the language, had to do another 3 years of med school again but now owns his own practice. That was his dream and he did it and 3 years isn't a lot of time on a human life. Depending on what they want in life getting another degree could be very much worth it (or a professional qualification or associate's degree) especially for an immigrant because employers tend to prefer degrees from institutions they know.  I'm pretty sure the UK has income based repayment of student loans so you only pay it back when you start making money.

[24andfrugal]

@24andfrugal yes my veterinatian friend is from romania. And over there the average wage for this job is less than the minimum wage in uk.

Surely the cost of living must be lower, no?

So for him, it makes sense to move here to earn more and have a better future. Even if it's a minimum wage it would be better than what he could get there.

Why did he go into a field that would pay so little in his home country and even less somewhere else?

There aren't any cross certifications. The medical field is very protectionist (i'd say the same in the USA btw) and he would have to do again the whole study to be able to work legitimately here. If it wasn't the case, I think the protected professions in the medical and legal field would be full of ex-pats!

FWIW, there are a lot of foreign born doctors in the US.

So he didn't feel it worth it to spend 4+ years to graduate again and that makes absolutely sense.


Also, my friends move to London to find a job mostly because its easier to find here (load of gig jobs) and outside its not as simple.

In London, you can just walk around from pub to pub and get a job that way. Most opportunities are here!

I don't know if I would call a minimum wage pub job an "opportunity". What your friends need is a career.

And when you earn minimum wage, it doesn't make much difference to work in London or outside. Renting a room would eat half of your wage in both case. And being further away will also cost you more in transport


Uk is usually the most logical destination for most European ex-pats because the language is already known and salary either higher or equivalent to their home country. Its less true now with the pound so low but 10 years ago we had all countries coming in.

I thought they were non-English speakers and hence could not tutor English?

Something isn't adding up here. Your friend has a specialized degree in a medical field that makes pennies in his home country and isn't useful anywhere else. How does this work? And why did he do this?

"Walking into a pub and getting a job" is not a career strategy, especially when those jobs pay minimum wage and the price of those "opportunities" is living in an incredibly expensive city. Before covid I'm sure waitressing jobs were a dime a dozen in LA but that doesn't mean that's the best use of one's human capital.

[Paul der Krake]

@24andfrugal yes my veterinatian friend is from romania. And over there the average wage for this job is less than the minimum wage in uk.

Surely the cost of living must be lower, no?

So for him, it makes sense to move here to earn more and have a better future. Even if it's a minimum wage it would be better than what he could get there.

Why did he go into a field that would pay so little in his home country and even less somewhere else?

There aren't any cross certifications. The medical field is very protectionist (i'd say the same in the USA btw) and he would have to do again the whole study to be able to work legitimately here. If it wasn't the case, I think the protected professions in the medical and legal field would be full of ex-pats!

FWIW, there are a lot of foreign born doctors in the US.

So he didn't feel it worth it to spend 4+ years to graduate again and that makes absolutely sense.


Also, my friends move to London to find a job mostly because its easier to find here (load of gig jobs) and outside its not as simple.

In London, you can just walk around from pub to pub and get a job that way. Most opportunities are here!

I don't know if I would call a minimum wage pub job an "opportunity". What your friends need is a career.

And when you earn minimum wage, it doesn't make much difference to work in London or outside. Renting a room would eat half of your wage in both case. And being further away will also cost you more in transport


Uk is usually the most logical destination for most European ex-pats because the language is already known and salary either higher or equivalent to their home country. Its less true now with the pound so low but 10 years ago we had all countries coming in.

I thought they were non-English speakers and hence could not tutor English?

Something isn't adding up here. Your friend has a specialized degree in a medical field that makes pennies in his home country and isn't useful anywhere else. How does this work? And why did he do this?

"Walking into a pub and getting a job" is not a career strategy, especially when those jobs pay minimum wage and the price of those "opportunities" is living in an incredibly expensive city. Before covid I'm sure waitressing jobs were a dime a dozen in LA but that doesn't mean that's the best use of one's human capital.

In a lot of countries there is no concept of pre-med and then a grueling competition for the privilege of paying 200k to go to medical school. People become doctors because that's what they decided they wanted to do when they were 18, and it was basically the same price as getting a history degree. I certainly didn't have a good grasp on labor markets when I was 18, did you?

Then reality hits, and they move for whatever reason(s).

[CrabbitDutchie]

The vet friend definitely doesn't add up. But that's not your fault. Sometimes it's easier to spin defeatist semi-truths than to tell people you don't actually want to be a vet (trust me). Telling people the truth just makes you feel like more of a failure. The thing is, there's actually a relative shortage of vets in this country but working conditions are not necessarily good. If your friend came to London for a better life and discovered that in the UK the median salary for a vet is only just over £30k and includes a lot of evening and weekend work. If you come here with no country specific knowledge and not much veterinary experience overall then you have to be flexible, be willing to move away from London and work your socks off (and be very lucky if you can get £25k pa to start with). You also have to make sure you never calculate your equivalent hourly wage. It's not good.

From a qualification point of view the RCVS (Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) accepts Romanian degrees as long as the applicant is an EU citizen and can prove their English is of a high enough level to communicate. Not a particularly high barrier. If they are unlucky enough to have a Romanian vet degree without being an EU citizen then there's still no problem as long as they genuinely passed the foreign degree. They just have to sit the statutory RCVS membership exam. It's not the easiest exam and it's obviously not free, but it's not exactly 'a further 4 years of study'.

[helloyou]

@Imma ahah I also known people working in massage parlour and made good money. They didn't say exactly what they did but apparently there were some level of "happy ending" that happened!! I'm not surprised the money is good!

And for his Vet story, I just repeat what I understood. And I thought it really needed years of studies in order to convert. Maybe it's a somewhat distorded story... but he was working as pharmarcist assistant which was just minimum wage so it's even worse. So I don't know.

Life wasn't easy I think. Ironically, he was paying more in rent than me, paying more in transport (I cycle to work) and he was as well paying his girlfriend stuff! He was spending so much that he needed his mum to send money over!

These are thing I never understood. Sometime I give him joke as if he just lived like me he would have saved £37k over his 7 years in London. (£350/month in rent + £100/month in transport saved * 7 years). The sum is shocking myself just looking at it!


And by the way, I said that my expats friends are "non (Native) english speaker", and that include myself. We speak english but this is not our native language. I looked at some stage to do english teaching to travel (I wanted to do it for a long time), and the salary is good only if you are native speaker. And of course if you have additional qualification it's better. But as non native it's harder to find opportunities as teacher and it's not paid as well either.

[snowball]

When you throw out a bunch of ideas for improving someone's circumstances, some of them aren't going to apply to that person for whatever reason (for example, making good money as an English teacher when you're not a native speaker).

Just because some of the ideas won't work, that doesn't mean all of them won't.  There have been a lot of ideas in this thread that sound like they would work for your friends (like, I'm sure the vet friend could start a pet-sitting business and do very well, especially if he targeted pets with medical needs like diabetes, as Zikoris suggested).

I have a relative who's defeatist like this, and has worked for close to minimum wage all his life.  He's 42 now.  In his 20s, he would tell you, it was "too late" to try something else - it would take too long, or be too hard, or whatever.  In his 30s the same thing.  In his 40s?  He's still singing the same tune after literally twenty years.  TWENTY YEARS.  You could do a LOT to change your circumstances in twenty years...

...but the thing is, you have to try.  You have to be willing to move out of your comfort zone.  To do something different.  To change.  If you keep doing the same things you've been doing, you just get the same results you've always gotten.

I wouldn't try talking your friends out of this frame of mind, though.  In my experience, people want to believe what they want to believe - and believing you CAN'T change your life (and therefore it's not your fault if you don't try) is very comfortable and appealing for some people.  You're not going to talk them out of that.  Just accept that they're making the life choices they want to make.

If it gets tiresome hearing them complain (and knowing that they don't want solutions, they just want you to provide a sympathetic ear to their complaints), I'd stop sympathizing and start making comments like..."so what are you going to do about it?" - and if my friends kept repeatedly complaining to me despite that, I'd probably be drifting out of those friendships and into circles of more positive, proactive people who take control of their own lives.  Self-defeating attitudes like this are incredibly frustrating to me.  And I also don't need friends who resent me for making good choices in my own life and achieving financial stability.  Self-defeating people are certainly more prone to that kind of resentment and bitterness - and you've said yourself that some of your friends already resent your success, which is not a good sign for the long-term survival of a friendship.

[expatartist]

A city like London, NYC, or Hong Kong where I live has little time or patience for Eastern European / Mediterranean ideals of work/life balance. Unless you come from money, or have grown up and made career-relevant connections there, they're cruel places that require "practical" work, and ridiculous sacrifice to save - impossible if you work in industries with low bar to entry without planning strategically.

There are identities and lifestyles associated with most jobs. It sounds like your friends aren't interested in certain kinds of work because of their associations. Coincidentally, these tend to be jobs that pay well. It's comforting to spend time around people who don't challenge you.

Or maybe they just want to focus on a certain lifestyle. But it doesn't sound compatible with FI. I'm not interested in FI either, but in combining paid work with identity, art spaces and -production, and immigration. Re immigration, "expats" while often applied to white people worldwide who move away from their home country, is usually reserved for people who move somewhere for a *specific* job on a package (housing allowance etc). People like your friend (and like most of my work until recently) are migrant workers if moving somewhere for a job, or immigrants if settling there permanently.

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

[helloyou]

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

Why is it a good deal harder to FI in Europe than other countries?

[expatartist]

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

Why is it a good deal harder to FI in Europe than other countries?

Europe tends to be more difficult because
1) salaries tend to be lower than in the US or expat package-types in Asia (I'm always shocked when I read UK salaries)
2) tax burden tends to be higher on the kinds of salaries conducive to FI

I'm not the best person to ask about Europe - I've only studied/interned there. @Paul der Krake or @UnleashHell or many others on the forum may have more concrete illustrations of this.

[helloyou]

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

Why is it a good deal harder to FI in Europe than other countries?

Europe tends to be more difficult because
1) salaries tend to be lower than in the US or expat package-types in Asia (I'm always shocked when I read UK salaries)
2) tax burden tends to be higher on the kinds of salaries conducive to FI

I'm not the best person to ask about Europe - I've only studied/interned there. @Paul der Krake or @UnleashHell or many others on the forum may have more concrete illustrations of this.

It's interesting what you say because during my 10 years career I always wanted to work abroad, and the only country I managed to earn more than in London was in Switzerland. So still in Europe.

Some anecdotes:
- I've had contact with a recruiter to work in HK and they offered relocation payment + 3 months housing allowance but the salary would be lower than what I had. I almost took the job but decided not to take it because in HK they work long hours (10h/day) and I'd still earn less even with a 15% tax rate. The lower tax rate was their main selling point actually.
- I sometime have Dubai recruiters calling me for roles, and once I did the mistake to discuss job requirements for an hour until we start talking salary and found out I'd earn 30% less there than in London.

I've always told these recruiters it didn't make any sense for me to relocate and go through all this hassle to get a big pay cut. If I want to explore other countries, I may as well just work a bit longer here in London and take holiday to visit abroad!

So it might be due to the field but so far, the best rate have always been in london and that's why I've stayed here for so long!

[Channel-Z]

Unfortunately numbers won't lie. I started my career at $19k/year-- 20 years ago. I make $55k/year now. That's still low-income, but enough that I can save each month. I might not be FIRE, but I hope to reduce to part-time work in the coming years. Having an extra couple of days off each week has some value too.

[Imma]

@helloyou I agree that London and Switzerland are the best locations for expats + some American cities. In most European countries, very high incomes are culturally frowned upon so companies with their HQ in, say, Germany or the Netherlands, will likely pay a little less than their English/Swiss/American counterparts. Still €€€ and expats with family sometimes prefer these countries because of the quality of life and good education systems (source: not an expat but I work with expats and know the details of their packages). I personally wouldn't want to work in Dubai no matter what they paid me, and work-life balance seems different in Asian countries. If I were a foreign expat I'd sign up for Amsterdam, Copenhagen or Berlin in a heartbeat, instead of London (although I deeply love London and plan to retire in the UK eventually).

Just to be clear, my friend isn't massaging humans, but pets! As part of the pet grooming / homeopathy business. They offer all kinds of bullshit unmustachian treatments to pets. And they make good money because that's what rich ladies with fancy dogs want to pay for. My friend isn't physically capable of doing the hard work that a vet needs to do but pets are fine. I'm sure this wasn't their plan when they were 18 but life happens. I'm very close to getting a job that will be perfect for me (will hopefully sign tomorrow!) but when I was 18 I didn't even know this job existed.

@expatartist you are right about the difference between expats and migrant workers, but I've noticed quite a lot of people, especially eastern Europeans in western Europe, prefer to label themselves as expats instead of migrant workers or immigrants because a lot of people are prejudiced against eastern Europeans. When people think of people from for example Poland of Romania they think of poorly educated, heavy drinking people. So several of my friends call themselves expats when they actually aren't. And even though they speak the language, they will often communicate with strangers in English so people can't hear their accent. (In my country most people wouldn't be able to recognize accents in English)..

[UnleashHell]

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

Why is it a good deal harder to FI in Europe than other countries?

Europe tends to be more difficult because
1) salaries tend to be lower than in the US or expat package-types in Asia (I'm always shocked when I read UK salaries)
2) tax burden tends to be higher on the kinds of salaries conducive to FI

I'm not the best person to ask about Europe - I've only studied/interned there. @Paul der Krake or @UnleashHell or many others on the forum may have more concrete illustrations of this.

Salaries may be slightly lower (often location dependent within Europe) but there is so much more to it that that.
Health care costs - way lower - you aren't going to be bankrupt due to healthcare in Europe.
Social safety nets - far better in Europe.
Food costs - better in the UK than the US. Sure I can get cheaper steak here but healthier food tends to price lower in the UK.
Housing costs - again very location specific. NYC vs London isn't going to see much difference but I'd say its cheaper in general in the USA and you get more for your money. Property tax is higher though.
being sick. If i get sick then it comes out of my vacation days, which are already lower than they were in the UK. Thats a huge game changer from a QOL perspective.
Public transport - far far better in the uk than the US. Some cities here have good transport options but not many.
You get to keep more of your money in the USA - then spend it on higher property tax, healthcare, higher food costs etc. Oh and the bigger property here means higher maintenance costs.

I'd say from my perspective of living in the UK and the USA that its easier to get to a FIRE position in the USA but its more expensive to maintain it. You can make a lot of choices to keep costs down in the UK that you can't do here in the USA (especially transport and healthcare).

[expatartist]

At any rate it sounds like your friends' attitudes and lifestyles are incompatible with FI, and it's a good deal harder to achieve in the EU than the US / Asia. So you may want to avoid getting too deeply into the topic.

Why is it a good deal harder to FI in Europe than other countries?

Europe tends to be more difficult because
1) salaries tend to be lower than in the US or expat package-types in Asia (I'm always shocked when I read UK salaries)
2) tax burden tends to be higher on the kinds of salaries conducive to FI

I'm not the best person to ask about Europe - I've only studied/interned there. @Paul der Krake or @UnleashHell or many others on the forum may have more concrete illustrations of this.

It's interesting what you say because during my 10 years career I always wanted to work abroad, and the only country I managed to earn more than in London was in Switzerland. So still in Europe.

Some anecdotes:
- I've had contact with a recruiter to work in HK and they offered relocation payment + 3 months housing allowance but the salary would be lower than what I had. I almost took the job but decided not to take it because in HK they work long hours (10h/day) and I'd still earn less even with a 15% tax rate. The lower tax rate was their main selling point actually.
- I sometime have Dubai recruiters calling me for roles, and once I did the mistake to discuss job requirements for an hour until we start talking salary and found out I'd earn 30% less there than in London.

I've always told these recruiters it didn't make any sense for me to relocate and go through all this hassle to get a big pay cut. If I want to explore other countries, I may as well just work a bit longer here in London and take holiday to visit abroad!

So it might be due to the field but so far, the best rate have always been in london and that's why I've stayed here for so long!

OP as others mentioned, it's complicated. It depends on one's industry. And it comes down to a lot more than just salary. Taxes in HK are quite low for example. And how much one works depends on one's industry. It's quite easy to start a business here and run it from anywhere (I'm registering another one tomorrow).
All variables depend on one's industry, and even more so on one's lifestyle. UH described the US quite well - I've not lived there for 17 years, never owned a car or lived a typical US lifestyle while there.
For your friends who are low earners, and don't have or seem interested in gaining useful skills for the place where they are, they're better off in Europe due to strong welfare states. London? Maybe not.

But why are you posting so much about friends here? It seems irrelevant to your stated situation. If they're interested enough, they'll post.

[helloyou]

Unfortunately numbers won't lie. I started my career at $19k/year-- 20 years ago. I make $55k/year now. That's still low-income, but enough that I can save each month. I might not be FIRE, but I hope to reduce to part-time work in the coming years. Having an extra couple of days off each week has some value too.

Yes that's exactly the point of my post here. It's super hard even with motivation for low income to achieve FIRE!

@expatartist i started this post because of the oddness talking about FIRE to many of my friends who are on low wage. And while I was talking the great benefit, when putting on a calculator what sacrifice they needed to do to achieve it wasn't compelling at all! Thats why I posted!

@spartana yes it requires many sacrifice few are happy to accept. One of the biggest expense in London is housing and transport.

Even on minimum wage they want to live in a relatively central place, have some level of additional comfort (ensuite room) and won't cycle.

But doing so just cripple the ability to make any savings. Just as I said, if he did what I did he would have saved £37k in 7 years just by cutting expenses.

But most people won't accept. And i understand. We only have 1 life and can't just live to save!!

[24andfrugal]

In a lot of countries there is no concept of pre-med and then a grueling competition for the privilege of paying 200k to go to medical school. People become doctors because that's what they decided they wanted to do when they were 18, and it was basically the same price as getting a history degree. I certainly didn't have a good grasp on labor markets when I was 18, did you?

Then reality hits, and they move for whatever reason(s).

When I was 18 (17 actually) I had an associate's degree and 68 community college credits in everything from biology to criminal justice since I saw the writing on the wall that my original career goal of print journalism probably wouldn't pan out, so I took the 3 years I was in CC to explore and figure out what I wanted to do that checked the boxes of "something I like" and "that someone will pay me for". I'd say I had a basic grasp of labor markets in those years, enough to understand the cost of a degree vs. how much money I could expect to make with said degree. And that was before I took my two intro economics classes, which solidified what I wanted to major in and also, coincidentally, expanded my knowledge of labor markets (supply and demand vis a vis human capital).

But I realize I'm probably an outlier ;)

[Paul der Krake]

In my industry, software, I have found that the people who think Europe is just as good as the US for comps are completely deluding themselves. They'll point to health care costs as an example of a big expense, not taking into account that it's almost entirely irrelevant to the usual FIRE crowd who get full benefits that are low or no cost to them. Even that does fail and they need to pay out of pocket for whatever reason, the expense is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

[helloyou]

In my industry, software, I have found that the people who think Europe is just as good as the US for comps are completely deluding themselves. They'll point to health care costs as an example of a big expense, not taking into account that it's almost entirely irrelevant to the usual FIRE crowd who get full benefits that are low or no cost to them. Even that does fail and they need to pay out of pocket for whatever reason, the expense is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

That is true if you compare against perm role. I'm also in the IT sector (as UX designer), and after some number years of experience most people become contractor/freelance. Day rate from software engineer can average £500-700/day and more if in finance sector or in managing role. These guy stay in these roles for years and are almost like full timer.

They end up with yearly salary in the £100-150k mark which I believe is very much inline with US salary?

Although this practice may end soon because the UK government see it as tax avoidance and is planning to increase tax rate to 50-60% to contractors. That may very much change the number of high skilled workers in the UK