Author Topic: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?  (Read 6413 times)

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2021, 09:52:51 AM »
Right but those homeless people wouldn't be able to afford the rent on those 'empty' houses if they were at market anyway. The homeless will always need shelters.

If and when the non-homeless population cannot afford a single room in a share house (or one room per every 2 occupants in a share house) then it becomes a problem - but here in Australia at least it's nowhere near like that.

We have young Australians whinging about not being able to afford a freestanding home of their own when it's perfectly doable to simply rent in a share house. I did that till I was 30 and the net cost for me was about $200/week - or $100/week/person since I was partnered. $100/week is nothing. And yet people whinge that they want to be able to afford a freestanding house - that's a pipe dream, and not something the market should cater for. I mean by all means pay it if you have the money, but if you don't have the money, just get a share house.

As I said, the majority of those people are economically homeless. So they actually do have a job, and money to spend on rent, they just don't have a home because there aren't enough places available for rent. The lack of homes for sale is also an issue, because the natural progression of shared home -> renting a flat -> buying a flat -> buying a single-family home (usually terraced in my country) isn't there anymore. If no one can afford to buy, people stay in the rentals, and when the rentals are occupied by middle class people who used to be able to buy, where do the poor people go? Exactly. To their friends' sofa's and their cars.

I'm glad the housing market is not as bad where you live, but yes, where I live, yes, it's that bad. People pay a fortune to live in a room in a shared house and many shift workers actually share beds: one sleeps during the day, one sleeps during the night.

A lot of those rooms in shared houses are actually illegal though: the majority of landlords ban people who are not a couple from living together, and sub-letting is almost always banned too. There are exceptions for students but in most cases you need to send in a copy of your university card every year. Tuition is not expensive in here, it's about a month's wage for an average person, so I literally know someone who keeps paying tuition so they can keep their uni card and remain in their current place.

Living somewhere illegally means they can't register with the local government at the address they are living at, so they register at their parents' house, which means their parents have to pay higher taxes (which low-income parents can't afford) or they simply don't register anywhere. If you're not registered at an address, it has many consequences, including that you don't qualify for state pension over those years even if you paid into the system that year. So in the long term, not being registered is a big issue with lifelong consequences. And if you're found out in your illegal place, you're back on the street and you may lose all of your belongings too. That happened to Mr Imma, who went unregistered for a couple of years (which means he also couldn't vote or renew his passport). We've allowed people to register at our address over the years to help them with this issue but as I said, this has tax consequences for both parties.

Lots of our friends with high incomes and good careers are stuck in rented studio's because they simply can't afford to progress on the ladder. No wonder the millennial birthrate is about 1,5. And it's not because all those people are complainypants who simply aren't content with anything that's not a mansion. As mustachians we are more frugal than most people, but if we were to divorce I don't know where I would live either (as the lower earner, Mr. Imma would have the right to stay in our shared home). I think moving back in with my mum may be the only option. Either that or a hotel, which would cost more than I would be able to afford, even with an above-average income and a year's worth of income in the bank. As a disabled adult in my 30s I don't think living in a shared house would be feasable anymore.

@mathlete We already have ultra-dense developments in my country, and especially in my city, but one big issue is that ultra-dense building is extremely expensive. High-rise buildings are expensive to build, and it's also very expensive to custom design homes that exactly fit a certain space (instead of basically adapting a template) and to build it with only small tools and equipment, because there's no space for the larger equipment. Recently they built 250 new homes (a mix of terraced houses, apartments and studio's, both for rent and for sale) in my area in a location that used to be a factory. But very few of those units were for sale for less than 400k and it wasn't exactly a luxury development. We have no other choice in my country because there's not much open space left, but building a suburb is certainly much cheaper.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19229
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2021, 09:55:18 AM »
Right but those homeless people wouldn't be able to afford the rent on those 'empty' houses if they were at market anyway. The homeless will always need shelters.

If and when the non-homeless population cannot afford a single room in a share house (or one room per every 2 occupants in a share house) then it becomes a problem - but here in Australia at least it's nowhere near like that.

We have young Australians whinging about not being able to afford a freestanding home of their own when it's perfectly doable to simply rent in a share house. I did that till I was 30 and the net cost for me was about $200/week - or $100/week/person since I was partnered. $100/week is nothing. And yet people whinge that they want to be able to afford a freestanding house - that's a pipe dream, and not something the market should cater for. I mean by all means pay it if you have the money, but if you don't have the money, just get a share house.

It's absolutely a problem here in Canada. In our major cities, which is where nearly 90% of our population lives. I'm looking at renting a room in a crappy apartment in another city for one year for a graduate program, and that will be at least $700/mo for a single room. My one bedroom in the same city, 9 years ago cost $1700.

A 1 bedroom apartment in my city can easily sell for well over 300K. Down the street a small 2 bedroom apartment costs 800K plus $1000/mo in condo fees.

Affordable housing is a MAJOR issue in Canada and huge focus of policy makers, only, their efforts have actually made housing less affordable for the entry level home buyers, which sucks.

So just because it's not a major issue where you live doesn't mean that it shouldn't be subject to policy to preserve it that way, because when it gets bad, it's actually really, really difficult to reverse.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2021, 10:17:02 AM »
I think a lot of this recent pushback comes from the idea that landlords provide no value. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of shitty landlords out there. They can be racist. They can sit on city councils and enact self-serving policy. They can and will ignore festering issues. etc.

But bad landlords are not an indictment against the concept of landlording. But how does the market for buying/selling/leasing land benefit society? The same way most capital intensive markets do; adding liquidity.

Anyone who has bought and sold property knows what a bear it is. So many people are involved. Listing agent. Buyer's agent. Appraisers. Inspectors. Contractors. Insurance companies. Deed and escrow people. Lenders. Originators.

With a lease though, you can be in or out of a place in a matter of days. Because landlords are equipped to handle that process better than the average renter and they can often do it cheaper at scale.

If we lived in a world where everyone picked where they wanted to live and lived there forever, I could see a cooperative ownership model working out better. People buy into their homes and also into a scheme where they pay for maintenance at scale. But people move all the time. When they move out and go to school. On campus to off campus. From shitty roommates to good roommates. Start dating and move in with partners. Get married and buy a house. Upside for kids. New neighborhood when they get a raise. Downsize when the kids move out. Etc.

Leasing gives you an option outside of buying and selling property 7 or 8 times over a a decade or two. Liquidity!!

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2021, 10:24:33 AM »
@mathlete We already have ultra-dense developments in my country, and especially in my city, but one big issue is that ultra-dense building is extremely expensive. High-rise buildings are expensive to build, and it's also very expensive to custom design homes that exactly fit a certain space (instead of basically adapting a template) and to build it with only small tools and equipment, because there's no space for the larger equipment. Recently they built 250 new homes (a mix of terraced houses, apartments and studio's, both for rent and for sale) in my area in a location that used to be a factory. But very few of those units were for sale for less than 400k and it wasn't exactly a luxury development. We have no other choice in my country because there's not much open space left, but building a suburb is certainly much cheaper.

So what is the solution here? It sounds like you live in a pretty desirable place if there's not much space left. It sucks that things are expensive, but how else do you decide who gets to live in desirable places?

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2021, 10:26:14 AM »
Right but those homeless people wouldn't be able to afford the rent on those 'empty' houses if they were at market anyway. The homeless will always need shelters.

If and when the non-homeless population cannot afford a single room in a share house (or one room per every 2 occupants in a share house) then it becomes a problem - but here in Australia at least it's nowhere near like that.

We have young Australians whinging about not being able to afford a freestanding home of their own when it's perfectly doable to simply rent in a share house. I did that till I was 30 and the net cost for me was about $200/week - or $100/week/person since I was partnered. $100/week is nothing. And yet people whinge that they want to be able to afford a freestanding house - that's a pipe dream, and not something the market should cater for. I mean by all means pay it if you have the money, but if you don't have the money, just get a share house.

It's absolutely a problem here in Canada. In our major cities, which is where nearly 90% of our population lives. I'm looking at renting a room in a crappy apartment in another city for one year for a graduate program, and that will be at least $700/mo for a single room. My one bedroom in the same city, 9 years ago cost $1700.

A 1 bedroom apartment in my city can easily sell for well over 300K. Down the street a small 2 bedroom apartment costs 800K plus $1000/mo in condo fees.

Affordable housing is a MAJOR issue in Canada and huge focus of policy makers, only, their efforts have actually made housing less affordable for the entry level home buyers, which sucks.

So just because it's not a major issue where you live doesn't mean that it shouldn't be subject to policy to preserve it that way, because when it gets bad, it's actually really, really difficult to reverse.

So much the bolded.

It's really not a morally palatable argument to make that those who are unable to afford to buy something under the current conditions should be subjected to live in conditions they (and many other people) would not feel comfortable living in.

And comfort /= the basics of privacy, climate control, and an appropriate amount of furniture.

If you want to be stoic and assume that everyone must follow the 'rational actor' prescription, it's really easy to just handwave away the problem by assuming that what society currently has to offer is adequate for everyone. The logical derivative for that is that everyone in an unpleasant situation should just suck it up, which is an even worse argument to make.

Following that sentiment, the topic of "well, people only want to live in certain desirable areas" and "people should just move somewhere that's more affordable" is a pretty poor rug to sweep everything under. Mobility - socially, economically, and literally really isn't available to everyone equitably. The pervasive NIMBY-ism/redlining (and its modern equivalents) is a shitty way to maintain the status quo and make people who aren't like you someone else's problem.


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19229
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2021, 10:30:30 AM »
@mathlete We already have ultra-dense developments in my country, and especially in my city, but one big issue is that ultra-dense building is extremely expensive. High-rise buildings are expensive to build, and it's also very expensive to custom design homes that exactly fit a certain space (instead of basically adapting a template) and to build it with only small tools and equipment, because there's no space for the larger equipment. Recently they built 250 new homes (a mix of terraced houses, apartments and studio's, both for rent and for sale) in my area in a location that used to be a factory. But very few of those units were for sale for less than 400k and it wasn't exactly a luxury development. We have no other choice in my country because there's not much open space left, but building a suburb is certainly much cheaper.

So what is the solution here? It sounds like you live in a pretty desirable place if there's not much space left. It sucks that things are expensive, but how else do you decide who gets to live in desirable places?

It's not so much about deciding who gets to live there, it's about putting policies in place that put a drag on the values of housing despite the demand.

And yeah, it's extremely complicated and the policies have TONS of collateral effects.

It's not a simple problem to solve.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2021, 11:35:14 AM »
It's not so much about deciding who gets to live there, it's about putting policies in place that put a drag on the values of housing despite the demand.

And yeah, it's extremely complicated and the policies have TONS of collateral effects.

It's not a simple problem to solve.

The bold is kind of the same thing, isn't it?

And I'm not seriously expecting a "how do we solve the problem" response. I get it. It's a tough nut to crack. :(

Morning Glory

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5167
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2021, 11:41:35 AM »
Read this in a book, the author was lamenting the fact that skyrocketing house prices were making home ownership a failed dream for many

In the early 80's I thought I would never own a house or condo because of the "skyrocketing house prices".  Sounds like the same old lament to me.



I think the author must have been lamenting the "skyrocketing house prices" in desirable areas.  Areas with good schools, good jobs, lots of services.

Still a lot of cheap housing in some of the flyover parts of the USA and in towns where people ride to the local bar on a riding lawnmower cause they lost their DL to too many DUIs.

I ride my lawnmower to the bar to avoid getting a DUI. It's part of being a responsible drunk!

Where I live you can get a DUI on a lawnmower, tractor, ATV, snowmobile, even a bicycle or horse-drawn carriage.  You cannot get one if you are riding on the horse, that is not considered driving.

Yes I have seen many people in rural America who are so lazy that they will drive a couple blocks on a suspended license rather than walk.  My sister-in-law's ex actually went to jail because he didn't want to walk 2 blocks to the gas station to buy cigarettes, in nice weather.  Of course it was a small town so the cop recognized him and pulled him over immediately.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19229
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2021, 11:52:44 AM »
It's not so much about deciding who gets to live there, it's about putting policies in place that put a drag on the values of housing despite the demand.

And yeah, it's extremely complicated and the policies have TONS of collateral effects.

It's not a simple problem to solve.

The bold is kind of the same thing, isn't it?

And I'm not seriously expecting a "how do we solve the problem" response. I get it. It's a tough nut to crack. :(

To a degree it is, but they're not equivalent concepts. In expensive cities, a whole lot of middle class folks are still buying houses, they're just putting themselves at extreme financial risk to live in suboptimal conditions. I'm not sure an affordability policy, even if it worked, would radically change the makeup of the population of a city, but it would drastically affect the financial health of those within it.

The issue is when you have an economy that's enormously impacted by the housing sector, as Canada's is, since again, almost all of us live in cities with insane housing markets. So policies that affect only overly expensive markets here affect almost everyone in the country.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2021, 11:54:30 AM »
He pointed out that tenants do not form the same close community that owners do in housing communities.

I'm a serial renter that doesn't value home ownership. I would point you at Germany which is more liberal that the USA and has a lower home ownership rate. I would also point you at the economists that say that home ownership backfires because it makes workers less mobile.

I think that home ownership is a weird quirk in US culture brought about by the Great Depression, government subsidized mortgages, and other cultural oddities.

EDITed to add - I do think that the government could and should do more to encourage affordable housing. I don't think that we need more home ownership.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 11:57:23 AM by PDXTabs »

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2021, 01:47:00 PM »
He pointed out that tenants do not form the same close community that owners do in housing communities.

I'm a serial renter that doesn't value home ownership. I would point you at Germany which is more liberal that the USA and has a lower home ownership rate. I would also point you at the economists that say that home ownership backfires because it makes workers less mobile.

I think that home ownership is a weird quirk in US culture brought about by the Great Depression, government subsidized mortgages, and other cultural oddities.

EDITed to add - I do think that the government could and should do more to encourage affordable housing. I don't think that we need more home ownership.

This is interesting. If you lease, you cede some of the risk of fluctuating home prices to the landlord. If your local economy collapses and slips into a depression, you can move for greener pastures without worrying about having to pay to get out from under your mortgage.

The flipside though, is that the economy takes off and your rents go up every year.

I agree with your edit though. Everyone should be able to afford a place to live. Whether they own it or not is something I'm less interested in.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2021, 05:05:03 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Morning Glory

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5167
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2021, 05:21:57 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.

Blindsquirrel

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • Age: 7
  • Location: Flyover country
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2021, 05:28:03 PM »
    As a long time land lord and evil flipper of SFRs for 20+ years, landlords fix stuff that no average person can fix. Would you rather live next door to an apartment building full of tweakers, rats and roaches or a place full of employed people in beautiful apartments? Would you want to live next to a house with all of the copper torn out and a fricken mess or a completely renovated house that someone has sunk 80 k into and sold at a fair price that is still substantially less than new construction?

  We spend 100s of thousands a year on tradesmen and pay well, to see landlords as evil is actually crazy. Unfortunately, broke people do not have access to the capital required to do a big rehab and not many have the skills to fix all that is needed. We pay massive amounts of property taxes to support schools, police, fire, libraries in the communities where we do work. Our reward for fixing up a dump is always higher property taxes. 

   Very few companies are building SFRs for first time buyers as land and permits cost a pile so you are way ahead to build a 350k house than a 180k house. Rehabbers provide houses that working people can afford vs. McMansions that are priced too high for them to consider.  We have turned no less than 7 tenants into homeowners over the years and they have all walked into equity when they signed on the line for a mortgage. Yes, we make money on the deals, sometimes a whole bunch of it. That is the reward for the risk. I think you need to read some other books.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11503
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2021, 06:12:53 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.
Same as here.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2021, 06:47:09 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.
Same as here.

Yea, but I spent a bunch of time in Hong Kong. Basically every family lives in a flat no larger than 645 square feet with at most two bedrooms. So I tend to say change the code, and get people high density housing where they don't need to own a car.

Morning Glory

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5167
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2021, 07:57:04 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.
Same as here.

Yea, but I spent a bunch of time in Hong Kong. Basically every family lives in a flat no larger than 645 square feet with at most two bedrooms. So I tend to say change the code, and get people high density housing where they don't need to own a car.

Ok that's nice but not very helpful when you have homeless relatives staying at your house because they can't afford the three bedroom place the code tells them to get because the teenage daughter is expecting. Since you own your house you can have all of them on top of your four and that's ok, since you're not charging them rent because you want them to save up and get their own apartment.

Oh and they lose their food stamps too because they live with you now and have to report your income so now you are feeding them. They would have to have a separate kitchen to get food stamps.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7393
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2021, 08:21:53 PM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.
Same as here.

Yea, but I spent a bunch of time in Hong Kong. Basically every family lives in a flat no larger than 645 square feet with at most two bedrooms. So I tend to say change the code, and get people high density housing where they don't need to own a car.

Ok that's nice but not very helpful when you have homeless relatives staying at your house because they can't afford the three bedroom place the code tells them to get because the teenage daughter is expecting. Since you own your house you can have all of them on top of your four and that's ok, since you're not charging them rent because you want them to save up and get their own apartment.

Oh and they lose their food stamps too because they live with you now and have to report your income so now you are feeding them. They would have to have a separate kitchen to get food stamps.

Occupancy limits are but one element of zoning codes that are basically designed to keep poor people out. The only justification for prohibiting more than three unrelated people from living together is that you don't want people living in your neighborhood who can't afford to live there without splitting the rent three ways. The only justification for banning duplexes in your neighborhood is that you don't want people living in your neighborhood who can't afford enough land on their own to have a private front and back yard all to themselves.

These provisions need to go. Walling off large sections of your city so that only people with above-average incomes can hope to live there is antithetical to the public interest.

My sister was a victim of these overzealous occupancy limits once. She was attending school, and the town she was in enacted pretty strict occupancy limits to try and confine the students to the areas near campus. That of course didn't stop people with limited means (such as my sister) from trying to find a way around these rules because an illegal bedroom was all they could afford. The result was that she didn't have her name on the lease (with whatever tenant protections the law would otherwise provide). She didn't have her name on the mailbox, so she had to have her mail delivered elsewhere. If anybody asked, she was just a guest staying for the weekend or something. She basically had to live an underground, invisible existence because of a stupid municipal law that said you had to let the fourth/fifth/sixth bedroom in your house go to waste unless everyone living there was related to each other.

FINate

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3362
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2021, 08:23:01 PM »
Housing is skyrocketing because too many buyers are competing for too few homes. And rents are unaffordable because too many renters are competing for too few rentals.

Prices will only come down if the equation is reversed -- sellers competing for buyers and landlords competing for renters. Yet that would require a massive amount of homebuilding, which is anathema to existing homeowners. It's one of the few things I can think of that both the right and left agree on: PROTECT MAH INVESTMENT! Landlords fill the necessary but unfortunate role of scapegoat.

Tinker

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2021, 11:55:46 PM »
i don't dislike the entire landlord thing.
But I'm definitely skeptical of people buying up houses and apartments for speculation, keeping them empty in starved markets over long periods

I see this "buy a home and then let it sit empty indefinitely" thing bandied about as something that is happening a lot. Is it really? I struggle to understand the motivations. It seems analogous to buying a stock speculatively (expecting it to increase in price) but then just throwing the dividends away because you only care about the price increase. Not renting out the property is leaving a ton of money on the table. I'm not denying that this might happen sometimes from a buyer who is so wealthy that they don't need to care about throwing money away, but it seems illogical for it to be a common occurrence.

Even if it does happen with some frequency, is it really such a bad thing overall? The owner is paying property tax at the full rate and using essentially zero local government services. They're not sending kids to the local schools, not using the public transit or parks or libraries or anything else. The money they spent to build the house went into the pockets of local workers. These are all good things! The downside (one less home available for rent) can be largely remedied by fixing your zoning so that someone who wants a home to live in can just pay for another one to be built. And furthermore if you allow the supply of housing to increase without limitation, the speculation angle for owning houses goes away. You might reasonably expect land to appreciate in such an environment, but a building would be seen as a depreciable asset that you only want to own if you're getting some use out of it.
Apartments along entire streets have been bought up and converted to touristy use like airbnb https://www.nordbayern.de/region/erlangen/neues-verbot-auch-erlangen-geht-gegen-airbnb-vor-1.9760141, other places are left empty. https://taz.de/Spekulativer-Leerstand-in-Berlin/!5749397/


i don't dislike the entire landlord thing.
But I'm definitely skeptical of people buying up houses and apartments for speculation, keeping them empty in starved markets over long periods

This is just the free market at work. I don't have any issue with it.
[local rich memelord] buying up everything in every supermarket and either reselling it for double or leaving it to rot is also the free market at work, and a complete dick move.
But food will ordered to be carted in for cheap on short notice, whereas shelter takes months to build alone, neglecting all the hassle around finding land, acquiring permits, planning...

Not everything the free market allows is good.

vand

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2523
  • Location: UK
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2021, 12:46:00 AM »
"It's just the laws of economics - supply and demand" is kinda bullshit

And I am a big believer in the market.

Why is it bullshit? Becauses housing is both consumption and an investment vehicle. That isn't true of stocks and other investments. Normally with any consumption item the higher the price the less is demanded.

However similar to other investments, houses exhibit veblen good characteristics typical of all investments in that the higher they go, the more popular they become as investments thereby perpetuating increasingly high prices and distorting the market compared to if it was purely driven by housing needs alone.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2021, 05:27:58 AM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.

Well I think that's bullshit. You couldn't have three singles staying alone in a 3BR house under that code - and that makes no sense. Here that happens all the time with uni students and the like. Also when I first came to Australia I lived with my family (3 of us) in a 1BR unit - I guess that'd be illegal too? All bullshit. Frugality means dealing with whatever standard of living affords dignity but not luxury. To be clear, I'm talking about minimum standards. Not compulsory standards.

As for housing being an investment vehicle, of course it is. Everything can be. As I said, as long as people have a minimum standard of shelter it doesn't bother me an iota. People have the right to earn money and put it to work.


Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2021, 08:15:37 AM »
@mathlete We already have ultra-dense developments in my country, and especially in my city, but one big issue is that ultra-dense building is extremely expensive. High-rise buildings are expensive to build, and it's also very expensive to custom design homes that exactly fit a certain space (instead of basically adapting a template) and to build it with only small tools and equipment, because there's no space for the larger equipment. Recently they built 250 new homes (a mix of terraced houses, apartments and studio's, both for rent and for sale) in my area in a location that used to be a factory. But very few of those units were for sale for less than 400k and it wasn't exactly a luxury development. We have no other choice in my country because there's not much open space left, but building a suburb is certainly much cheaper.

So what is the solution here? It sounds like you live in a pretty desirable place if there's not much space left. It sucks that things are expensive, but how else do you decide who gets to live in desirable places?

Well, it's not so much this specific location, the Netherlands is just a really tiny country. I live in one of the main cities, but the situation is the same everywhere. The housing market is even worse in my hometown than it is in the big city. We had the same issue in the post-war period. We were just crossing the 10 million inhabitants threshold and the birthrate was 4. So we did the following:
- we exported our problem and encouraged 5% of our population to emigrate to the US, Canada and Australia. We paid people to leave.
- we drove the birthrate down
- we created extra land (we reclaimed the province of Flevoland from the sea)

In the 60s we first found out that due to our emigration policy we lacked young people of working age, so we started to encourage immigration. Ever since our economy has been dependent on immigration: permanent immigrants, mainly from muslim countries, highly-skilled expats and migrant workers from Eastern Europe who are planning to return home at some point. All those people need to be housed, so this creates even more pressure on the housing market. This creates a negative feedback loop: as more adults move here, we need more housing that we don't have, our population becomes more unbalanced because young people don't have families due to the housing shortage, so we need more adults to move here, etc. The massive housing shortage has pushed the birthrate down to about 1,5 now. It's much more difficult now to emigrate to countries where Dutch people can easily assimilate: the US, Canada and Australia now have much more strict immigration policies. And for environmental reasons we don't want to reclaim more land or build over the last few spots of nature that we still have.

So I guess we're basically stuck in the same situation, except we now have a population of nearly 18 million, and unlike back then, our population is now mostly adults, so less people per housing unit. Most political parties see one of two solutions:
- Give up on economic growth, let the big companies and expats go away, our economy will take a hit, but we'll accept a lower standard of living.
- Accept that we're dependent on immigration, encourage immigration, housing will continue to be a problem until the babyboom generation dies, accept that due to large-scale immigration our language and culture will eventually change. In my city this is already happening, English is becoming the main language spoken in public instead of Dutch and more and more schools are teaching exclusively in English.

Neither of those solutions is particularly appealing to me. I guess the third option is to encourage people to leave again. But maybe this time not the young families like in the 1950s. Maybe people like me, childless people without close familie ties, would be the best candidates to emigrate. But in most other locations, my job prospects would be extremely low (since I don't speak the language and my skills are hard to transfer) so that's why so few people want to leave. A girl from my school moved to the Ukraine to start a farm. Can't really see myself doing that.

A fourth option for the short- to medium term would be, changing laws so it's easier for unrelated people to share a home. @seattlecyclone is right about that. There's this moral judgement that a family should be a man, a wife, two kids and a dog. Two men or two women with kids and a pet is also acceptable in my country these days. But several unrelated adults, living in one house, that's something weird that we don't want to encourage. It would also help a lot if subsidies were granted to individuals and not to households, like @Morning Glory said. In my country "stacking" of several subsidies/benefits in one house is a big political issue. We feel that people need to take care of everyone who live under their roof without help from the government. But that's not how it works with roommates.

RE: renting in Germany (and most of Europe). The reason why renting is so popular is exactly because of tenant protection laws. People know that once they've secured a rental, they can stay there and raise their family and don't have to uproot them. It's also normal here that homes don't come with floors, curtains, kitchens, appliances etc so renters have to invest quite a lot in a property. They don't want to do that for a property that they might have to leave in a year. In my country, we changed tenant protection laws a couple of years ago to allow yearly short-term rental contracts. The idea was that this might increase the supply of housing, that people would rent their properties out for the short term instead of leaving them empty. Well, that didn't work out. Almost every new rental contract from a for-profit landlord is a limited term contract now. Now rentals have become uncertain, an increasing amount of people are looking to buy, so they can get certainty. They would have been fine living in a regular rental for a long time, but they feel uncomfortable starting a family in a rental that they could be kicked out of within a year.

I think that's one major difference between my parents (Babyboom) generation and mine (Milennial). When our parents were young adults, in the 70s and 80s, there were also lots of challenges. Life wasn't easy back then either. But all jobs and all rentals were long-term, so once they got a job and a rented place, they knew they were fairly secure. They didn't have to buy a house unless they really wanted to for some reason. They could only be fired from their job or kicked out of their home for cause. In my generation, we have luxuries that our parents didn't have (like internet, foreign travel and more access to education) but a lot more people are in a precarious situation where their house and their job could diseappear any moment.

@Bloop Bloop Reloaded I don't agree with those laws either but that's the way it is in many locations. In my city, you need a permit to live with roommates (3 bedrooms or more, with two people in two bedrooms you can pretend you're a couple). Existing permits can't be revoked, but there's a blanket ban on new permits in almost all cheap neighbourhoods (including mine) and there needs to be a minimum distance of 30 meters between each unit with a roommate permit. It's not hard to find a room in a shared house, but as I said in one of my earlier posts, all of those situations are illegal. So the renters have 0 security, can't vote, can't renew their passport, etc. I agree that's totally ridiculous but these are the laws in many places around the world. Homeowners don't want to live next to roommates and they are the people that vote. Low-income people aren't a big political priority.

Morning Glory

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5167
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2021, 08:30:04 AM »
Everyone should be able to afford a room  or a two-room share if they're a family. Not a freestanding home or self-contained accommodation. That's going way too far on the 'frugal living' standard.

Umm, around here that is illegal. There is a limit of two people per bedroom and no more than two families or unrelated people per unit. Even infants count as people in the rental code.

Well I think that's bullshit. You couldn't have three singles staying alone in a 3BR house under that code - and that makes no sense. Here that happens all the time with uni students and the like. Also when I first came to Australia I lived with my family (3 of us) in a 1BR unit - I guess that'd be illegal too? All bullshit. Frugality means dealing with whatever standard of living affords dignity but not luxury. To be clear, I'm talking about minimum standards. Not compulsory standards.

As for housing being an investment vehicle, of course it is. Everything can be. As I said, as long as people have a minimum standard of shelter it doesn't bother me an iota. People have the right to earn money and put it to work.

I know it is bullshit, but landlords here can lose their license if they violate the code. It was hard for my SIL to find a place for herself, 2 sons, daughter, and granddaughter because nobody would rent them a 2 bedroom and there aren't many 3s so they go for a premium.

They talked to the public housing authority, who wanted to split them up, which would have been even more expensive than sharing a 3 bedroom market rental.  They eventually found one but now the daughter got a better job and wants to move out but then her mom won't be able to afford the rent. Sigh.

Jon Bon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1668
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2021, 09:04:36 AM »
So really its just building codes, ordinances and zoning is the issue here? I don't see landlords really as a problem at all. (Full disclosure am a LL). If there is a housing shortage affordable or otherwise the answer is to build more houses. Not everyone gets to live in the kickass part of town. If they want too, they need to pay for the privilege in rents or mortgages. Local councils can't scream about an affordable housing 'crisis' on one hand and outlaw duplexes/ADUs on the other.

Sure if some LL asshole is breaking the law, that's not cool. But yelling at a "bad" landlord because his places are run down is just foolish. Luxury apartments come with luxury rent. Not everyone gets to afford a nice house. So yeah living in a run down place is not anyone's perfect situation but it is a roof over your head at a price you can actually afford. If a LL goes to fix it up, rents are going to rise, then he becomes an asshole gentrifier. Sorry some attitudes towards LL's are pretty negative right now, as a whole we are just responding to the market. We are a business, not a charity. 

Wow I got a lot more ranty then I expected! Apologies!


FINate

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3362
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2021, 09:32:37 AM »
"It's just the laws of economics - supply and demand" is kinda bullshit

And I am a big believer in the market.

Why is it bullshit? Becauses housing is both consumption and an investment vehicle. That isn't true of stocks and other investments. Normally with any consumption item the higher the price the less is demanded.

However similar to other investments, houses exhibit veblen good characteristics typical of all investments in that the higher they go, the more popular they become as investments thereby perpetuating increasingly high prices and distorting the market compared to if it was purely driven by housing needs alone.

For decades SF (and much of CA) restricted new supply of housing while in-migration continued. The common refrain was that SF housing was special, somehow immune from the laws of economics. Yet science predicted this would cause housing shortages and exponentially increasing prices. And this is exactly what happened. Then in 2020, for reasons we don't need to go into here, demand for rental housing in SF lessened as people moved away. Any by golly, rent prices dropped. It's almost as if science works!

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2021, 09:44:48 AM »
So really its just building codes, ordinances and zoning is the issue here? I don't see landlords really as a problem at all. (Full disclosure am a LL). If there is a housing shortage affordable or otherwise the answer is to build more houses. Not everyone gets to live in the kickass part of town. If they want too, they need to pay for the privilege in rents or mortgages. Local councils can't scream about an affordable housing 'crisis' on one hand and outlaw duplexes/ADUs on the other.

Sure if some LL asshole is breaking the law, that's not cool. But yelling at a "bad" landlord because his places are run down is just foolish. Luxury apartments come with luxury rent. Not everyone gets to afford a nice house. So yeah living in a run down place is not anyone's perfect situation but it is a roof over your head at a price you can actually afford. If a LL goes to fix it up, rents are going to rise, then he becomes an asshole gentrifier. Sorry some attitudes towards LL's are pretty negative right now, as a whole we are just responding to the market. We are a business, not a charity. 

Wow I got a lot more ranty then I expected! Apologies!

I don't think landlords are assholes. Some are though. And markets where there is a very small supply and a very high demand tend to attract those assholes, because they love "get rich quick" schemes. Cities come up with tenant protection laws to protect tenants from extortionate asshole landlords, but this hurts normal landlords and normal tenants. It's totally understandable that cities want to prevent extreme overcrowding for safety reasons, but these rules often mean that people are forced to rent a bigger than necessary house that they may not be able to afford.

But I do believe that landlords that rent out seriously run down apartments are criminals. With seriously run down I don't mean "walls painted in a outdated colour scheme" , I'm thinking of apartments full of safety hazards. Just because people want to rent them doesn't mean you should let them. Just like you shouldn't sell a beater car with worn-out brakes to an unsuspecting victim.

Strict rules have led to a lot of illegal housing situations in my city, and a lot of those illegal rentals are ran by unscrupulous landlords and they are very unsafe. I have personally lived in a place where the landlord did all his own DIY, and it turned out nearly all of the wiring and gas pipes in the house were unsafe. We found out because we called the fire department because of a strong smell of gas and they immediately evacuated the building. I'm pretty sure that if they did door-to-door inspections in this neighourhood, they'd have to evacuate dozens of buildings.

In my city they have recently started a safety project that has been targeting specific asshole landlords. That sounds like a great project, because it filters out the bad guys and doesn't bother the good landlords, except that any illegal tenants they find are kicked out. Which means a project that's meant to save tenant's lives is actually making them end up living in their car without any notice.

I don't think most people feel they deserve to live in the best part of town in a luxury mansion. They may dream of that, but they'd be totally content with something very modest. It's easy to say "poor people should just go to a LCOL area" or "we should just build more houses" but where are those so-called LCOL areas? Maybe they do exist in Canada or the USA somewhere, but I haven't come across them in western Europe. And building more houses is difficult when you're running out of space. I mean, I guess we could stop vaccinating and let Covid run its course and kill off the whole Babyboom generation, but otherwise, the world is just overpopulated and it's going to take some time before our global population is going to go down.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19229
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2021, 09:45:48 AM »
So really its just building codes, ordinances and zoning is the issue here? I don't see landlords really as a problem at all. (Full disclosure am a LL). If there is a housing shortage affordable or otherwise the answer is to build more houses. Not everyone gets to live in the kickass part of town. If they want too, they need to pay for the privilege in rents or mortgages. Local councils can't scream about an affordable housing 'crisis' on one hand and outlaw duplexes/ADUs on the other.

Sure if some LL asshole is breaking the law, that's not cool. But yelling at a "bad" landlord because his places are run down is just foolish. Luxury apartments come with luxury rent. Not everyone gets to afford a nice house. So yeah living in a run down place is not anyone's perfect situation but it is a roof over your head at a price you can actually afford. If a LL goes to fix it up, rents are going to rise, then he becomes an asshole gentrifier. Sorry some attitudes towards LL's are pretty negative right now, as a whole we are just responding to the market. We are a business, not a charity. 

Wow I got a lot more ranty then I expected! Apologies!

Well, I mean it's pretty clear that the article this thread is based on us a load of shit in the first place...so...

It thoroughly pissed me off with the classist bullshit about renters not caring about their community.

Landlords aren't the problem, bad and corrupt housing policies are a problem and commercial property investors will obviously capitalize on those policies. But to say that investing in commercial real estate is somehow "wrong" is just idiotic.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7393
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2021, 10:37:06 AM »
Apartments along entire streets have been bought up and converted to touristy use like airbnb https://www.nordbayern.de/region/erlangen/neues-verbot-auch-erlangen-geht-gegen-airbnb-vor-1.9760141, other places are left empty. https://taz.de/Spekulativer-Leerstand-in-Berlin/!5749397/

Thanks for these links. I do not read German. My apologies if Google's English translation changed the meaning in some important way, causing a misunderstanding of the text.

The first article says laws were changed in response to 0.25% of apartments being converted to Airbnb use, that "with a view to the current housing market, it is therefore necessary to maintain the housing stock and 'put a stop to' the misappropriation."

Again, this seems to be coming from a mindset that the number of homes in your city is a fixed quantity, that if a home is converted to Airbnb use that means one less family is able to live in your city. There's no reason this needs to be true. Here in Seattle we've been increasing the housing supply by more than 2% yearly for the past few years. Why can't your city do the same? What's going to happen when your population increases by 0.5%, double the number of homes you've unlocked by banning Airbnb? Are you going to build more then?

I will say that when I travel with my kids I very much appreciate the ability to rent an apartment through Airbnb or Vrbo. We can get two bedrooms and a kitchen, with some extra living space. This often costs more than one hotel room but less than two, and we save money on restaurants because we're able to prepare many of our meals in the apartment. I don't want to feel like my vacation is depriving some family of the ability to live in that area, but there's also no reason this needs to be the case. The line is kind of arbitrary anyway. Why not call for hotels or office buildings to be converted to long-term housing? It would have the exact same effect on rents as converting Airbnbs to long-term rentals, wouldn't it?

The second article, plus some comments from @Imma, help me understand some reasons why someone might want to keep an apartment empty in your country that I didn't consider originally, because those reasons don't apply here.

Where I live the rent will surely exceed the cost of maintaining the property, and property owners can generally choose to renew tenancies (or not) on a year-by-year basis. Given those conditions it seems pretty irrational to leave a property vacant for years. Even if you purchased the property as a pure speculation play, hiring a property management company to rent the place out in the years before you sell should certainly increase your return on your investment compared to leaving it vacant. If you eventually decide you want to move in yourself (or sell to someone who would), you won't need to wait more than a year to do so.

I see things may be different in your part of Europe. Maintenance and a few other costs will be larger if the property is occupied than if it is vacant. If your rent control laws are strict enough, it might not actually be true that the rent collected will exceed these costs. If your tenancy laws don't allow for limited-term leases, and you find a home you wish to buy for your own use in the future, there's no way to make sure you can do that other than leaving it vacant in the interim.

But really, my overarching point remains. Speculative ownership of housing only looks like a good investment in places where housing construction is not occurring fast enough to keep up with demand. Owning a building is expensive. There's property tax, maintenance, landscaping, and other costs that go into it. In an area where new housing supply is allowed to be constructed, there's no way that the price appreciation of a building will exceed these holding costs by a wide enough margin to look like a better investment than VTSAX.

FINate

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3362
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2021, 01:28:08 PM »
"It's just the laws of economics - supply and demand" is kinda bullshit

And I am a big believer in the market.

Why is it bullshit? Becauses housing is both consumption and an investment vehicle. That isn't true of stocks and other investments. Normally with any consumption item the higher the price the less is demanded.

However similar to other investments, houses exhibit veblen good characteristics typical of all investments in that the higher they go, the more popular they become as investments thereby perpetuating increasingly high prices and distorting the market compared to if it was purely driven by housing needs alone.

For decades SF (and much of CA) restricted new supply of housing while in-migration continued. The common refrain was that SF housing was special, somehow immune to the laws of economics. Yet science predicted this would cause housing shortages and exponentially increasing prices. And this is exactly what happened. Then in 2020, for reasons we don't need to go into here, demand for rental housing in SF lessened as people moved away. Any by golly, rent prices dropped. It's almost as if science works!

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2021, 05:23:44 PM »
Ok that's nice but not very helpful when you have homeless relatives staying at your house because they can't afford the three bedroom place the code tells them to get because the teenage daughter is expecting. Since you own your house you can have all of them on top of your four and that's ok, since you're not charging them rent because you want them to save up and get their own apartment.

Oh and they lose their food stamps too because they live with you now and have to report your income so now you are feeding them. They would have to have a separate kitchen to get food stamps.

But are we talking about what we can change, or aren't we? Because if we are going to just throw our hands up and change nothing, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Don't expect me to vote with my dollars or my votes to more rapidly deplete the planet of its finite resources. Expect me to vote for more food assistance and more dense housing. 

NaN

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2021, 09:30:36 PM »

I see this "buy a home and then let it sit empty indefinitely" thing bandied about as something that is happening a lot. Is it really? I struggle to understand the motivations. It seems analogous to buying a stock speculatively (expecting it to increase in price) but then just throwing the dividends away because you only care about the price increase. Not renting out the property is leaving a ton of money on the table. I'm not denying that this might happen sometimes from a buyer who is so wealthy that they don't need to care about throwing money away, but it seems illogical for it to be a common occurrence.

Even if it does happen with some frequency, is it really such a bad thing overall? The owner is paying property tax at the full rate and using essentially zero local government services. They're not sending kids to the local schools, not using the public transit or parks or libraries or anything else. The money they spent to build the house went into the pockets of local workers. These are all good things! The downside (one less home available for rent) can be largely remedied by fixing your zoning so that someone who wants a home to live in can just pay for another one to be built. And furthermore if you allow the supply of housing to increase without limitation, the speculation angle for owning houses goes away. You might reasonably expect land to appreciate in such an environment, but a building would be seen as a depreciable asset that you only want to own if you're getting some use out of it.

In my city it happens a lot. Is it bad? Well, sometimes the owners are not paying property tax at full rate. I often see old houses remodeled and jokingly appraised at probably 2/3 or even 1/2 what they might get on the market. This is really the county assessor's fault. In my city it is common for second homes. A lot of the schools in this particular area have had large attendance drops - there are not many new families in the area. Yes, these homeowners are paying taxes, but when it comes to cutting Art or music programs at the schools on the other side of the city versus local investment of tax dollars in the wealthy areas (parks, roads, infrastructure, etc.), what do you think actually is done? Yes, they are putting in tax dollars but they also lobby for their tax dollars to spent how they want.

I'm a serial renter that doesn't value home ownership. I would point you at Germany which is more liberal that the USA and has a lower home ownership rate. I would also point you at the economists that say that home ownership backfires because it makes workers less mobile.

I think that home ownership is a weird quirk in US culture brought about by the Great Depression, government subsidized mortgages, and other cultural oddities.

EDITed to add - I do think that the government could and should do more to encourage affordable housing. I don't think that we need more home ownership.

That is an interesting thought about home ownership being a weird quirk. I talked to a guy from South Korea at an academic conference and recall that 'renting' is really paying a large amount of money to the owner, living 'rent' free while the owner invests your money, and then when you leave the owner has to return your money with no appreciation and pockets the investment returns. That was quite bizarre to me, so I guess it is entirely possible for someone to look at the U.S. approach and think this is quite bizarre.

Housing is skyrocketing because too many buyers are competing for too few homes. And rents are unaffordable because too many renters are competing for too few rentals.

Prices will only come down if the equation is reversed -- sellers competing for buyers and landlords competing for renters. Yet that would require a massive amount of homebuilding, which is anathema to existing homeowners. It's one of the few things I can think of that both the right and left agree on: PROTECT MAH INVESTMENT! Landlords fill the necessary but unfortunate role of scapegoat.

Very true. This pretty much sums up everything.

windytrail

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2021, 01:32:52 PM »

I don't think landlords are assholes. Some are though. And markets where there is a very small supply and a very high demand tend to attract those assholes, because they love "get rich quick" schemes. Cities come up with tenant protection laws to protect tenants from extortionate asshole landlords, but this hurts normal landlords and normal tenants. It's totally understandable that cities want to prevent extreme overcrowding for safety reasons, but these rules often mean that people are forced to rent a bigger than necessary house that they may not be able to afford.

But I do believe that landlords that rent out seriously run down apartments are criminals. With seriously run down I don't mean "walls painted in a outdated colour scheme" , I'm thinking of apartments full of safety hazards. Just because people want to rent them doesn't mean you should let them. Just like you shouldn't sell a beater car with worn-out brakes to an unsuspecting victim.

Strict rules have led to a lot of illegal housing situations in my city, and a lot of those illegal rentals are ran by unscrupulous landlords and they are very unsafe. I have personally lived in a place where the landlord did all his own DIY, and it turned out nearly all of the wiring and gas pipes in the house were unsafe. We found out because we called the fire department because of a strong smell of gas and they immediately evacuated the building. I'm pretty sure that if they did door-to-door inspections in this neighourhood, they'd have to evacuate dozens of buildings.

In my city they have recently started a safety project that has been targeting specific asshole landlords. That sounds like a great project, because it filters out the bad guys and doesn't bother the good landlords, except that any illegal tenants they find are kicked out. Which means a project that's meant to save tenant's lives is actually making them end up living in their car without any notice.

I don't think most people feel they deserve to live in the best part of town in a luxury mansion. They may dream of that, but they'd be totally content with something very modest. It's easy to say "poor people should just go to a LCOL area" or "we should just build more houses" but where are those so-called LCOL areas? Maybe they do exist in Canada or the USA somewhere, but I haven't come across them in western Europe. And building more houses is difficult when you're running out of space. I mean, I guess we could stop vaccinating and let Covid run its course and kill off the whole Babyboom generation, but otherwise, the world is just overpopulated and it's going to take some time before our global population is going to go down.

While recognizing that we are living in different continents, I want to point out a couple of issues with what you said that I believe apply everywhere.

- If landlords are repeatedly, intentionally breaking the law, then yes they are criminals. If they are allowed to break the law with impunity then this is a failure by prosecutors and law enforcement to do their jobs. If they are not breaking the law, then they are not criminals. If you believe the laws are unjust, then you must advocate for changes.
- The world is not overpopulated. This argument is often raised by people who oppose housing but is not generally recognized as valid grounds for policymaking. It raises a moral conundrum. How do you defend the idea that it's acceptable for you to have been born, but not for your future children?
- Our cities (both US and Europe) have plenty of resources to absorb more people, just not more private automobiles and single family homes. The Netherlands is not even in the top 20 most densely populated countries (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-by-density).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 01:34:50 PM by windytrail »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2021, 06:16:54 PM »
A landlord who breaks a rental contract isn't a criminal; he or she has breached a contract. It's no more a crime than if the tenant doesn't pay the rent. It's a civil issue.

Here the tenancy tribunal is so pro-tenant it doesn't really matter. A tenant can do anything short of burning the house down and it's seen as a minor thing. Which to me is ridiculous.

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2742
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2021, 03:27:43 PM »
Who wants to be a landlord in the polities with a heavy pro-tenant bias?

I don't like dealing with people problems at work, where I'm well paid.    I've never considered this to be an appealing side hustle or retirement gig simply because of the potential for difficult tenants.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7355
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2021, 09:27:03 PM »
Everyone needs a place to live, whether that be a rental or a mortgaged house. Poorer people are more likely to be renters, a group that benefits from more rental units in supply. By adding to the supply of rental units, landlords are beneficial for renters.

The skyrocketing housing prices are more appropriately blamed on outdated zoning laws (supported by NIMBYs/BANANAs) which only allow for single family homes to be built in a large swath of the country, and which have been restricting the supply of new housing for decades. A New York Times analysis found that 75% of residential land in major cities is restricted to single family homes. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities-across-america-question-single-family-zoning.html)

Related is that homes keep becoming larger, though the size of the American family (with exception to waist size) is not increasing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCOdQsZa15o

Good channel. Good food for thought.

windytrail

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2021, 11:05:08 AM »
Everyone needs a place to live, whether that be a rental or a mortgaged house. Poorer people are more likely to be renters, a group that benefits from more rental units in supply. By adding to the supply of rental units, landlords are beneficial for renters.

The skyrocketing housing prices are more appropriately blamed on outdated zoning laws (supported by NIMBYs/BANANAs) which only allow for single family homes to be built in a large swath of the country, and which have been restricting the supply of new housing for decades. A New York Times analysis found that 75% of residential land in major cities is restricted to single family homes. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities-across-america-question-single-family-zoning.html)

Related is that homes keep becoming larger, though the size of the American family (with exception to waist size) is not increasing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCOdQsZa15o

Good channel. Good food for thought.

Thanks for sharing. Informative, succinct, clear.

beekayworld

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2021, 01:30:40 PM »
I'd prefer a system that prioritizes homeowners over investors, but we have what we hae today and I'm a pragmatist as much as an idealist.

I believe mortgages for homes you are going to live in have a lower mortgage rate. Mortgages for investment properties have a higher interest rate. So that helps some.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2021, 01:56:50 PM »
I'd prefer a system that prioritizes homeowners over investors, but we have what we hae today and I'm a pragmatist as much as an idealist.

I believe mortgages for homes you are going to live in have a lower mortgage rate. Mortgages for investment properties have a higher interest rate. So that helps some.

Yup, basically already have that. Try getting an investment mortgage with 0, 3, 5, or 10% down. I'm in the middle of a divorce and can't get approved for an investor mortgage to refi my spouse out of our domicile, but I could if I wanted to keep living here. Actually, I think most banks want 25% down for an investor.

beekayworld

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2021, 03:46:08 PM »
...much of the population wanting to live in about a dozen or so metro areas. ... they don't want more neighbors. Homeowners want to protect the value of their homes. Renters don't want more traffic on their commutes.

I think changing the hearts and minds of people who go to local city zoning meetings will probably be more effective at making homeownership attainable than a revolt against the landed class.
The problem around here is parking. Every apartment building is required to have one parking spot assigned per unit; but most units have two cars. (room mates, married couples).

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #90 on: March 11, 2021, 03:46:42 PM »
It's arbitrary and stupid that banks are stricter on investors, particularly when many of those investors would have more collateral than a first-home buyer.

I don't approve of using otherwise impartial financial services to try to dictate social outcomes.

I don't even know why we want a society where everyone owns his or her own home. It's a utopian and misguided ideal. Let the market sort it out and provide shelters for those who genuinely can't afford a private rental.

beekayworld

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #91 on: March 11, 2021, 04:11:58 PM »
I would also point you at the economists that say that home ownership backfires because it makes workers less mobile.

This is interesting. If you lease, you cede some of the risk of fluctuating home prices to the landlord. If your local economy collapses and slips into a depression, you can move for greener pastures without worrying about having to pay to get out from under your mortgage.

Along the same lines, economists say that rent control also makes workers less mobile. It also mismatches home "consumption" to consumers' needs over time.
Think of a newly-wed couple who rent a 3 bedroom, 2 bath apartment. They raise 2 children who leave; the husband passes away; the widow now has a 3 bedroom 2 bath that costs less than her new rent were she to move to a 1 bedroom 1 bath so she is stuck; can't move nearer her grandchildren; can't release that overconsumption to a new family.

beekayworld

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #92 on: March 11, 2021, 04:23:17 PM »
However similar to other investments, houses exhibit veblen good characteristics typical of all investments in that the higher they go, the more popular they become as investments thereby perpetuating increasingly high prices and distorting the market compared to if it was purely driven by housing needs alone.
Good point! Like the Dutch tulip bulb mania of 1637.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7393
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2021, 04:38:14 PM »
...much of the population wanting to live in about a dozen or so metro areas. ... they don't want more neighbors. Homeowners want to protect the value of their homes. Renters don't want more traffic on their commutes.

I think changing the hearts and minds of people who go to local city zoning meetings will probably be more effective at making homeownership attainable than a revolt against the landed class.
The problem around here is parking. Every apartment building is required to have one parking spot assigned per unit; but most units have two cars. (room mates, married couples).

And if the existing neighbors didn't also have more cars than their garage could hold, they'd have no reason to care. Unfortunately, many of them do have more cars than their garage can hold, have gotten used to plentiful publicly-owned free parking on their block, and understandably don't want anything to mess with that. For some reason the preferred solution is to stop new neighbors from moving in rather than building more public parking. Maybe it's not really about the parking?

windytrail

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2021, 04:45:26 PM »

Along the same lines, economists say that rent control also makes workers less mobile. It also mismatches home "consumption" to consumers' needs over time.
Think of a newly-wed couple who rent a 3 bedroom, 2 bath apartment. They raise 2 children who leave; the husband passes away; the widow now has a 3 bedroom 2 bath that costs less than her new rent were she to move to a 1 bedroom 1 bath so she is stuck; can't move nearer her grandchildren; can't release that overconsumption to a new family.

Proposition 13 (which limits property tax increases to 2% per year so long as the property is not sold) has the same effect on longtime homeowners in California.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2021, 04:47:27 PM »

I don't think landlords are assholes. Some are though. And markets where there is a very small supply and a very high demand tend to attract those assholes, because they love "get rich quick" schemes. Cities come up with tenant protection laws to protect tenants from extortionate asshole landlords, but this hurts normal landlords and normal tenants. It's totally understandable that cities want to prevent extreme overcrowding for safety reasons, but these rules often mean that people are forced to rent a bigger than necessary house that they may not be able to afford.

But I do believe that landlords that rent out seriously run down apartments are criminals. With seriously run down I don't mean "walls painted in a outdated colour scheme" , I'm thinking of apartments full of safety hazards. Just because people want to rent them doesn't mean you should let them. Just like you shouldn't sell a beater car with worn-out brakes to an unsuspecting victim.

Strict rules have led to a lot of illegal housing situations in my city, and a lot of those illegal rentals are ran by unscrupulous landlords and they are very unsafe. I have personally lived in a place where the landlord did all his own DIY, and it turned out nearly all of the wiring and gas pipes in the house were unsafe. We found out because we called the fire department because of a strong smell of gas and they immediately evacuated the building. I'm pretty sure that if they did door-to-door inspections in this neighourhood, they'd have to evacuate dozens of buildings.

In my city they have recently started a safety project that has been targeting specific asshole landlords. That sounds like a great project, because it filters out the bad guys and doesn't bother the good landlords, except that any illegal tenants they find are kicked out. Which means a project that's meant to save tenant's lives is actually making them end up living in their car without any notice.

I don't think most people feel they deserve to live in the best part of town in a luxury mansion. They may dream of that, but they'd be totally content with something very modest. It's easy to say "poor people should just go to a LCOL area" or "we should just build more houses" but where are those so-called LCOL areas? Maybe they do exist in Canada or the USA somewhere, but I haven't come across them in western Europe. And building more houses is difficult when you're running out of space. I mean, I guess we could stop vaccinating and let Covid run its course and kill off the whole Babyboom generation, but otherwise, the world is just overpopulated and it's going to take some time before our global population is going to go down.

While recognizing that we are living in different continents, I want to point out a couple of issues with what you said that I believe apply everywhere.

- If landlords are repeatedly, intentionally breaking the law, then yes they are criminals. If they are allowed to break the law with impunity then this is a failure by prosecutors and law enforcement to do their jobs. If they are not breaking the law, then they are not criminals. If you believe the laws are unjust, then you must advocate for changes.
- The world is not overpopulated. This argument is often raised by people who oppose housing but is not generally recognized as valid grounds for policymaking. It raises a moral conundrum. How do you defend the idea that it's acceptable for you to have been born, but not for your future children?
- Our cities (both US and Europe) have plenty of resources to absorb more people, just not more private automobiles and single family homes. The Netherlands is not even in the top 20 most densely populated countries (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-by-density).

- Being dangerously neglectful (which is the legal term for unsafe housing) is absolutely a crime in my country. It's generally only prosecuted when people die though. Many local governments' budgets are very stretched so they can't afford to send inspectors round for checkups. But having lived in a house where the landlord installed all gas pipes himself, and did it terribly, and knowing he owns a few dozen homes in my neighbourhood alone, I don't want to know how many people live in unsafe conditions. I was sceptical from the beginning so I put the place full of gas alarms, and they never went off. Later on my neighbours called the fire department and there was a leak, but because it was right next to an unintentional hole in the wall, the space was ventilated just enough that it wasn't dangerous. Good thing I didn't fill up that hole, it could have killed me!

We are actually #16 on the list of population density according to wikipedia (and two of our constituent countries are ranked even higher). Of our entire country, 10% is water and 13% is nature. All other land is in use for homes, businesses or roads. So, to build more homes, we either have to sacrifice our last bits of wild nature (nobody wants that) reclaim more land from water  (that's how we used to solve the population density issue but it's controversial now) or we have to increase the density in our cities even more. Our urban areas are already extremely densely populated and the issue with building higher and higher buildings in extremely densely populated areas is that it's 1. extremely expensive and 2. hard to keep quality of living up. Every time I look out of my window, another high-rise building seems to have appeared, so we are definitely building higher and higher, but people experience that their quality of living gets lower and lower. That's why so many people these days are saying 'well, let's convince a few businesses to leave and convert that space into housing, regardless of the economic hit we'll take'. I personally don't feel that's wise, but converting our country into Hong Kong would also be a terrible idea.

@Bloop Bloop Reloaded banks don't make moral decisions (sometimes I wish they did!). If investor mortgages are more expensive there then the only reason is that the bank's math wizz department has figured out there's a higher risk somehow. Unless of course there's a government rule forcing them to make investor mortgages more expensive.

Re: parking. The reverse is actually true in my country. Builders are required to build I think 1,something parking spot per apartment, while underground parking garages cost a fortune and are prone to leaks and other issues. This makes apartments more expensive. Except, in urban Europe, who has a car? Lots of those parking spots are empty. Some people rent them out but some HOA's ban it because that way strangers can easily get into the building. I wish they would let go of the parking requirements in very urban environments. If you need a car occasionally you can rent it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 04:50:35 PM by Imma »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2021, 04:59:23 PM »
Quote
@Bloop Bloop Reloaded banks don't make moral decisions (sometimes I wish they did!). If investor mortgages are more expensive there then the only reason is that the bank's math wizz department has figured out there's a higher risk somehow. Unless of course there's a government rule forcing them to make investor mortgages more expensive.

Here in Australia, APRA (the regulating body) put a cap of 10% of annual growth in property investment lending on banks (during the last boom). It shouldn't be interfering like that in the composition of the housing market - property, like any other asset, should be fair game.

Missy B

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 656
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #97 on: March 11, 2021, 05:38:44 PM »
i don't dislike the entire landlord thing.
But I'm definitely skeptical of people buying up houses and apartments for speculation, keeping them empty in starved markets over long periods

I see this "buy a home and then let it sit empty indefinitely" thing bandied about as something that is happening a lot. Is it really? I struggle to understand the motivations. It seems analogous to buying a stock speculatively (expecting it to increase in price) but then just throwing the dividends away because you only care about the price increase. Not renting out the property is leaving a ton of money on the table. I'm not denying that this might happen sometimes from a buyer who is so wealthy that they don't need to care about throwing money away, but it seems illogical for it to be a common occurrence.

Even if it does happen with some frequency, is it really such a bad thing overall? The owner is paying property tax at the full rate and using essentially zero local government services. They're not sending kids to the local schools, not using the public transit or parks or libraries or anything else. The money they spent to build the house went into the pockets of local workers. These are all good things!
No, people not using services is not a good thing. Providing those services in the first place costs quite a bit, and if you don't have enough users decisions will be made to cut. No more library for you, the bus you took is gone, the school --which gets $ based on enrolment, regardless of what the tax base paid in, is closed and your kids get bussed elsewhere.

beekayworld

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: SoCal
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #98 on: March 11, 2021, 05:48:42 PM »
i don't dislike the entire landlord thing.
But I'm definitely skeptical of people buying up houses and apartments for speculation, keeping them empty in starved markets over long periods

I see this "buy a home and then let it sit empty indefinitely" thing bandied about as something that is happening a lot. Is it really? I struggle to understand the motivations

It's a big problem in England and Vancouver Canada. From this article:
"...the north-east, where one in every 60 homes is long-term empty."
. and "[bought by investors who leave them empty to store wealth or to sell on at a profit]"

https://www.theguardian.com/a-place-called-home/2021/jan/11/the-housing-crisis-and-the-scandal-of-empty-homes-you-do-not-grasp-how-key-this-is. (edited to add link)

It doesn't make sense to me either.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Buying more houses than you can occupy bad for society?
« Reply #99 on: March 11, 2021, 06:35:25 PM »
If people want to buy homes and not put them to good use I don't see the issue with it. They've earned the money and therefore have the right to do as they please. Homeless shelters and emergency accommodation are a matter for the government to fund. I doubt the families who need that assistance would be in the private rental market anyway, and if they are then they have to deal with market forces.

The flip side of pro-tenant legislation is that borderline renters become undesirable because you have no recourse if they default.