Author Topic: Buying house in a floodplain  (Read 11121 times)

GU

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Buying house in a floodplain
« on: February 20, 2018, 12:56:13 PM »
Hi all,

Anyone have experience buying a house in a floodplain? Anyone knowledgeable on the subject? What advice do you have?

There's a house I'm interested in purchasing; it's on  the very edge of a Zone AE floodplain. The back yard abutts what looks like a pond but what is in fact a small branch of a small river.

My inclination is to avoid houses in floodplains, but this one checks all the (other) boxes.

drivetosave

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2018, 01:13:20 PM »
Happy to take a look. If you want to share the address I can offer a few specifics thoughts. I'm an engineer and deal with this for a living.

If not, I can offer some general thoughts. Let me know.

Brother Esau

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 01:38:45 PM »
I'm a Civil Engineer and Land Surveyor. It's generally not "if" a flood will come but "when".

Is the structure flood proofed at all?

Specifically:

1. Is the elevation of the first floor of the home above the base flood elevation?
2. Is there a basement or crawl space?
3. Are there any flood vents in the foundation?
 
There is more to consider but that is a start. I and most of my colleagues would never buy a property in, or even in many cases, near a flood zone. Sorry if that sounds extreme, just my opinion.

ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2018, 01:43:02 PM »
... I and most of my colleagues would never buy a property in, or even in many cases, near a flood zone...

I concur.  No matter how much you may love that house, you will NOT love when it floods and all your material goods are lost.

drivetosave

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2018, 01:52:23 PM »
I'll add some general thoughts (i agree with Brother Esau's points).

Flood risk is not clearly identified by a FEMA map. Being on the edge of an AE zone generally is less "risk" b/c the consequences, i.e. depth and velocity of flooding, is less. However, the majority of $ damages occur within the first 6-inches of flood (floor, electrical, appliances, dry wall), so when you define risk as the expected damages over a 30-yr mortgage, pretty much any property in a 100-yr AE zone shows significant $ risk. Hence why flood insurance is required for a mortgage. Then there is the potential lose of life, possessions, displacement, etc.

Living in an AE zone is not ideal, but sometimes as with life, you weight the pros/cons and make that call. And not all AE zones are equal... Some can be extremely fast moving water with the ability to cause structural damage, some can be backwater slow moving where you have days notice to move out your possessions.

I guess if you want to make a call "yes or no" based on something defined, look at your insurance premium plus deductible. Cost that out over the period you expect to pay. Also look at what a flood policy covers (check the limits), because often times it will not cover a like-for-like replacement depending on the quality of your fit out. And if you're thinking "i'll buy an old house and if it floods to a renovation with the insurance money" that doesn't quite work out as FEMA has put in place practices that discourage if not flate out prevent that.

Also, recognize that flooding will likely get "worse" for the majority of the country (though it's a very technical topic, so it's not always this way) due to forecasted climate change. Already, the industry has updated rainfall amounts and it is clear that infrequent events are becoming more frequent.

I'm a PE and develop flood models and FEMA maps for a living. I also quantify risks and design systems to manage flooding (dams, levees, etc.). As Brother said, it is not "if" but "when". Personally, I would avoid at all costs living in an AE zone (even if insurance were free!), because there are generally other options available, so why take the risk with my home?

drivetosave

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2018, 01:55:17 PM »
Another point to add re: FEMA maps (for posterity!).

Many FEMA maps are outdated or flat out wrong. Some are extremely "accurate" aka up-to-date and developed properly. It is a total guessing game as to which are which (though I can often tell just by looking at how the mapping was done).

I've updated maps and the floodplain completely changes, adding or removing entire neighborhoods. This is sometimes due to the fault of the company who developed the map, but often times due to the changes in technology over the past 10-yrs that have led to much better mapping.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 06:14:03 PM »
Um.... why would you even consider this?? How much is insurance going to cost you?? You do realise that every time it floods, regardless of how your house comes through (?!), you're likely to lose all of your garden? And you may also have real issues with sewerage overflow and contamination? Bad, bad, bad idea.

Sibley

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 06:44:42 PM »
I wouldn't even look at houses that were in a flood zone. Just asking for trouble.

shunkman

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 06:55:15 PM »
Some structures may technically be in a flood plain but the actual building site was built-up, or filled in, to raise the structure above the flood level. Usually flood insurance is still required if there is a mortgage involved.

EAL

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 07:06:58 PM »
I'm sure every area is different but this has been my experience: I have had clients choose to consider homes in a flood plain (I am a Realtor).  The tricky thing is that you can get a Catastrophic flood insurance policy for about $600 a year in our area. This doesn't seem too bad on face value. The problem is that once you file a claim, ever, no matter what, they will not maintain you on a catastrophic policy and they drop you and your next option is FEMA insurance which is about $200/month (regarding the houses I've dealt with, yours likely will be different).  This policy's premiums have risen about 25% a year for the last several years.  A local lender has told me he has seen several people losing their homes to foreclosure simply because they cannot pay their flood insurance premiums as they continue to rise.  As long as you have a mortgage, you are required to maintain flood insurance if in a flood plain). 

GU

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 07:10:44 PM »
Happy to take a look. If you want to share the address I can offer a few specifics thoughts. I'm an engineer and deal with this for a living.

If not, I can offer some general thoughts. Let me know.

Thank you for the offer.  After further consideration, I think this house is out.  I've decided this floodplain business is not worth the trouble.  Thanks to everyone who offered their opinion.

HoustonSker

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 07:12:50 PM »
I just lived through Harvey, hurricane not Weinstein.  Our house was barely over a year old, not in a floodplain, and we got two feet of water in our house.  It’s been an absolute cluster dealing with evac, remediation, rebuild etc.  Thankfully, we had flood insurance when it wasn’t required or even advised.  Surprisingly, all of my co-workers and friends who flooded did too.

Looking back, if we had any inkling that we could flood, we would have in no way bought our house.  Don’t fucking do it bro. You are asking for trouble.

Bateaux

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 08:36:51 PM »
No.  I've flooded many times.  It's terrible.   No.

Livethedream

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 10:39:32 PM »
Most likely there will be required flood insurance on top of your regular price nsurance. Often the cend st of the extra insurance will allow you to simply buy a nicer house not in a flood zone.

I worked in flood management in Sacramento for several years, I would personally never buy a house in any of those flood plains.

Remember, if it comes down to protecting a dam or flooding 50,000 houses, expect 50,000 houses to be flooded.

coopdog

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 06:23:18 AM »
I lived in a house in an AE zone for 14 years. We never had a problem and lived through the worst flood our town ever experienced. Our crawlspace didn't even get wet, yet homes not in a flood zone got a couple feet of water.

The zones are based on grade level (i.e. the dirt). Our finished floor (living space) was two feet above the Base Flood Elevation, so the only thing in any real danger was our HVAC unit and some duct work. 

You can get an elevation certificate to eliminate or reduce the cost of flood insurance even if your house sits on flood plain land, but everything, HVAC, ductwork, etc, has to be a certain amount out of the floodplain. I don't know all the rules to the elevation certificate. It wasn't an option for me because I'd had to completely redo the hvac system to get it off the ground.

We were on a riverine environment. I think coastal flooding is a different animal and probably carries harder to quantify risks, i.e. storm surge, that I didn't have to deal with.



 

Better Change

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 07:45:52 AM »
Ugh, no way dude.  No way.

We're "out" of the floodplain by 100 feet, but we had water up to our windows in the last "historic" flood in 2017.  We're getting "historic" (at least 100 year) floods every year or so now.  It's crazy.  We had water in our house a few years ago, and it was a nightmare - that was just the lower level, too.

I can't wait to move so that I don't have to freak out every time it rains.

I have friends who own a home in the 500 year flood plain, and they had 6 feet of water in their home last year.  The same 500 year flood occurred in 1986; the odds are against you.

HenryDavid

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 09:46:03 AM »
Many of us live in flood plains without perhaps realizing it.
Towns were built at river confluences. The rivers got "managed" with channels and dams, but can still flood.

WHEN, not IF, they flood, it's not just the water moving above ground you need to worry about.
As the water table rises, all of the local underground pipes fill up and that water needs to go someplace.
So every drain in your house becomes a fountain. Your toilets. Your floor drains, your washing machine drain.
What comes out of the fountains is whatever was in the combined storm and sanitary sewer systems. Toxic! Hard to clean up.

So if you live in a flood plain, install back flow valves in every pipe. At the very least. Do it now!
Also, after the flood you must get everything dry and disinfected AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Because: mold.
(Yes, we've been there  . . . .)

qval

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 05:10:47 PM »
To give a countervailing answer: I bought my house in 2014. It's ~150 feet from the river, whose flow is controlled by 3 dams (Boise). I knew going into it that we were taking a risk. 2017 was the worst flooding either since 1983 or 1955 when the last dam was completed. We had 6 inches of water in our crawlspace, but it never got above the concrete footings.

I still don't regret it. We live 1 minute from a bike path that goes 30 miles through town. We bike everyday and drive once per month except ski season when we drive ~twice per week. We can go dip in the river when it's hot, and we love the nature all around us. It's scary depending on very old man-made hubris structures, but our house is a fraction of our net worth (15%?). If we lost everything it would suck, but we'd manage.

It's also very likely we'd have some weeks notice (lots of snow, no space in the reservoirs) unless the dam(s) collapse catastrophically, in which case, half of Boise is swept away and tens of thousands dead. It's not likely, but the nation's dams are old. If more precip falls as rain than snow with global warming, the stored water gets more important for irrigation, meaning water managers will tend to push the envelope  Plus there's the data point of the Flood of 1862 (read up on it if you live in the western US). It's not likely to occur in the next 30 years,  but it weighs on me the same way a collapse of industrial civilization does (no FIRE without civilization).

Boise is in the midst of the (very) political process of contesting new floodplain maps by FEMA. FEMA says my house is now on the edge of the 100 year floodplain, where as it was outside of the 500 year flood zone before. Boise leadership thinks it's too conservative and doesn't want people to be required to buy insurance. I tend to believe the FEMA proposed flood map over Boise's pseudo technical criticisms.

Nevertheless, we love where we live and couldn't have the same lifestyle in a different location. I may regret my decision in 5 or 30 years, but for now I'm making the best of imprudent floodplain development.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 09:07:02 PM »
... I and most of my colleagues would never buy a property in, or even in many cases, near a flood zone...

I concur.  No matter how much you may love that house, you will NOT love when it floods and all your material goods are lost.

It just isn't worth it.  Walk away.  When the area floods, and it will flood, you will remember this day when we talked you out of making a bad mistake.

Larsg

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2018, 09:24:51 PM »
We found the perfect house once and were going to take out a small mortgage with a big down payment. During the loan process, the bank found that our home to be was in a floodplain - no prior disclosure from the seller or realtors on either side. The issue for us beside not wanting to take on the risk of flooding is that you have to pay for separate flood insurance as regular insurance on your mortgage does not cover stuff like that so it would have been an extra 1200 per yr to start just for flood insurance - NO WAY. Walk AWAY. The best way to buy a house is to be unemotional about it. There will always be other houses and with patience, you can find the one the ticks most of the boxes w/out all the hassle, expense, and risk.

Telecaster

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2018, 10:24:05 PM »
Never buy a house in a flood plain, steep slope. or wetland. 

Ever.

BookLoverL

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2018, 12:39:48 AM »
If your house is in a floodplain, it WILL flood at some point. Especially with the increase in extreme weather events and other weather weirdness due to climate change. A lot of people in the UK technically live in a floodplain, and after the last 10 years or so of at least one place flooding each year, I consider them all fools.

If you do make the unwise decision to buy in a floodplain, consider whether the ground floor has any sort of technical measures designed to help cope with floods (maybe consider tiles instead of carpets, and fewer soft furnishings, so it's easier to clean afterwards? Idk) and for goodness sake don't leave your non-waterproof valuables on the ground floor if you even think there might be heavy rain. Maybe even consider building the house on stilts. ;)

Primm

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2018, 01:19:05 AM »
I'll add some general thoughts (i agree with Brother Esau's points).

Flood risk is not clearly identified by a FEMA map. Being on the edge of an AE zone generally is less "risk" b/c the consequences, i.e. depth and velocity of flooding, is less. However, the majority of $ damages occur within the first 6-inches of flood (floor, electrical, appliances, dry wall), so when you define risk as the expected damages over a 30-yr mortgage, pretty much any property in a 100-yr AE zone shows significant $ risk. Hence why flood insurance is required for a mortgage. Then there is the potential lose of life, possessions, displacement, etc.

Living in an AE zone is not ideal, but sometimes as with life, you weight the pros/cons and make that call. And not all AE zones are equal... Some can be extremely fast moving water with the ability to cause structural damage, some can be backwater slow moving where you have days notice to move out your possessions.

I guess if you want to make a call "yes or no" based on something defined, look at your insurance premium plus deductible. Cost that out over the period you expect to pay. Also look at what a flood policy covers (check the limits), because often times it will not cover a like-for-like replacement depending on the quality of your fit out. And if you're thinking "i'll buy an old house and if it floods to a renovation with the insurance money" that doesn't quite work out as FEMA has put in place practices that discourage if not flate out prevent that.

Also, recognize that flooding will likely get "worse" for the majority of the country (though it's a very technical topic, so it's not always this way) due to forecasted climate change. Already, the industry has updated rainfall amounts and it is clear that infrequent events are becoming more frequent.

I'm a PE and develop flood models and FEMA maps for a living. I also quantify risks and design systems to manage flooding (dams, levees, etc.). As Brother said, it is not "if" but "when". Personally, I would avoid at all costs living in an AE zone (even if insurance were free!), because there are generally other options available, so why take the risk with my home?

I live near an area that was a designated flood zone. Everyone kind of ignored the possibility, there was a gentle rising water kind of flood in 1890 that inundated some houses, but that was outside living memory.

Until January 2011, when an "inland tsunami" devastated the area. 23 people died, 3 are still missing (officially dead). Thousands of people lost their homes. The cleanup took many months, and there are people who are still homeless.

The smell still coats the inside of my nostrils. No amount of insurance is going to compensate for the loss of a family member.

You don't want that. No matter how "flood-proof" your ground floor is, it won't stand up to something like this.

This is what happened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU-lc2pDcWE


Primm

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2018, 01:26:22 AM »
33. 33 people dead and 3 missing. Including children.

SunnyDays

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2018, 09:49:21 AM »
Yeah, don't do it, due to all the above reasons.  Even if your house is high enough to remain dry, do you really want to have to boat in and out?  I've seen this lots of times around my area.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2018, 10:07:24 AM »
I am looking at buying a very nice old house across the street from a moderate-sized ditch in a hilly area. I learned the 1% chance flood plain map is drawn to cover the front yard and crosses about 2 feet of the front porch. The ditch has not flooded in living memory. The house is on a crawl space with a sloped lot, so the front of the house is about 3 feet off the ground. Yet, this results in an extra $360/yr insurance rider per the agent. At this point, it's not so much the expense as it is the idea of paying for nothing. It might be a good house to pay cash on - you'd both get a discount and get to skip the insurance.

qval

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2018, 06:42:37 PM »
I'm not totally sure, but you may be able to get an elevation certificate that a surveyor signs, which says the living space is elevated above the flood plain and you don't need flood insurance for your mortgage. Look into it...

It's still a questionable idea (see no flood in living memory, then 33 dead in 2011 above), but see if it's a risk worth taking. In my case, I feel that it is (river is controlled by a series of dams, snow melt is primary variable for flow rate so I can monitor the Snow Water Equivalent percentages). Developing and living in a flood plain is not an unequivocal bad or good, just weigh the tradeoffs...

Gone Fishing

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2018, 07:11:12 PM »
Use a future value calculator to figure up what the flood insurance would cost you over time.  Even without future increases in premiums, the number will be obnoxious.  Humans are very bad at visualizing this type of math (hence the misunderstanding of the ability to FIRE).  It is FIRE in reverse.  The property would need to be rediculously discounted, perhaps by half or more, to make it financially equivalent to a non flood plain property.  Which is never the case.

TheWifeHalf

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Re: Buying house in a floodplain
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 08:24:28 PM »
Our lot line goes back 100 ft, then down a hill and 300 ft to a creek. That 300 ft is floodplain. Water has never gotten closer than 100 ft from our lot line.
However, a couple of miles away, by the same creek, a bunch of expensive (for this area) homes were built, some built in the flood plain - with permission from the county. The most expensive house, with a swimming pool inside, built up the flood plain with soil, and dug a pond!
I don't know if it has happened yet, but the houses in the county upstream of the pond builder, are in danger of flooding.
I still don't understand how this could have been approved.

A couple of years ago a bunch of these houses had sewage coming into their bathrooms because the farmer that built these houses used a smaller tile than was needed. The township had a meeting to bring up the topic of everyone getting sewers (we are using individual septic tanks now) and decided from the feedback that no, it wouldn't be a go. TheHusbandHalf works with someone who lives over there and I guess it's now taken care of.

Glad to hear you're not considering this house.