Buy a Lexus (pondering replacing old Volvo beater with L-certified or new)

[ObviouslyNotAGolfer]

I read a bit of that other post about leasing a Lexus; suffice it to say, I think it is a reasonable option under some circumstances, possibly mine (not going to go into all my details here).

Anyway, recently, I have been pondering replacing my old beater daily driver (1991) Volvo 740 SE. It has been a GREAT, reliable, cheap-to-own car for the last 30 years (yes, I bought it new--single-owner car). I love the way the car drives, the incredible visibility (beats the shite out of any SUV), the brilliantly-designed interior (mine has full leather, wood trim, sunroof, a BIG ANALOG clock, which I LOVE etc). After having owned it for 30 years, I have an irrational attachment to it. TWO mechanics, both of whom I trust, recently told me (after expensive repairs) the car is very clean and in great shape. A previous mechanic told me that the "red engine" will go for 500K miles at least (currently has about 200K)...of course there is more to a car than an engine. 

However, it has become increasingly expensive in the last couple of years. I feel as if I'm playing whack-a-mole trying to stay on top of all the various things that come up (including failing smog for the first time ever). The AC has been an expensive PITA!! It also needs paint and interior work if I'm going to keep it for much longer. Even if I do that, I still wonder whether I want to be driving an early 90s car, when I can easily afford a 2022 machine. (I could pay all cash for the Lexus if I wanted.) I wonder about safety compared to a new car! An old turbo does not get the greatest gas mileage. Fortunately, my commute is fairly short. I am interested in electrics but am not sure they are right for me any my wife (possible subject for another thread).

Anyway, I am wondering about a few things. (Bear with me, as I have not bought a car in 30 years, and I have never made a car payment in my entire life.)

1.) I built an ES 350 and ES 300h on the website configurator. Nothing overly extravagant, they came to about 50-53K. My question is: How much will I likely pay for EVERYTHING--what is the out-the-door price (California)? Probably close to 70K I am guessing?

2.) I have also looked at low-mileage L-certified versions that come in at around 40K. How much would this cost me out-the-door? If a 52K new Lexus costs (I am guessing) 70K out the door, how much would a 40K L-certified version cost out the door?

3.) While the idea of building one to my exact specs is very appealing, saving tens of thousands of dollars is also appealing. Would you go for if you could afford either, L-certified or new?

4.) I am going to talk to my local (HUGE) dealer this week. What things should I ask, and what should I avoid mentioning?



Thanks.

 

[lutorm]

In the space of "upgrading from 30 yo 740" there's a world of options. Why a Lexus? (I know literally nothing about them.)

[Syonyk]

The AC has been an expensive PITA!! It also needs paint and interior work if I'm going to keep it for much longer.

Damn.  Sounds it, that you're considering spending $50k to $70k to avoid having to work on it more.  Has to have cost you, what $40k+ in air conditioning repair bills alone?  That'll definitely keep eating you alive.  You're clearly better off spending a couple grand a month to avoid having to spend even more on those air conditioning repair bills.

Even if I do that, I still wonder whether I want to be driving an early 90s car, when I can easily afford a 2022 machine. (I could pay all cash for the Lexus if I wanted.)

So... you could make down payment on an even nicer car with that kind of cash!  I mean, why limit yourself to $50k, when there are $100k, $150k, $200k cars?  Why not a Bentley?  I bet they're even nicer!  Rolls?  Come on, if you can afford $50k of down payment, just think what sort of lease deals you could get on something nicer.  Then, the major perk of leasing, when it's three years old, you turn it in and get to get a new car yet again!

I wonder about safety compared to a new car!

Rightly so!  The more you spend, the safer the car.  Are you sure your safety is only worth $50k to you?  Consider what sort of extra safety features $100k could get!

An old turbo does not get the greatest gas mileage.

Absolutely.  And right you are to upgrade.  In the long run, it'll save you money.  Your car gets... what, 20mpg?  If you went to a Lexus ES 350, getting about 25mpg, that's a whole 5mpg better!  Huge, huge, epic savings.  At $5/gal, and $50k, why, you'll be saving money in no time flat.  20mpg is a running cost of $0.25/mi, and 25mpg gets that down to $0.20 - so, a nickel a mile less.  That means your $50k investment will start saving you money in a mere million miles!  And, at 200k miles on a 30 year old car, if you average the same ~6500 miles a year, that's a mere 153 years of driving to start saving that money!  You can taste the savings from here!

==================

End sarcasm.  What forum are we on again?  Ah, yes, the Clown Car EZ-Boy Recliner Portable Toilet Encouragement Forum!

Fortunately, my commute is fairly short.

How short?  Try an ebike.  $1500 or so, gets you the whole "new vehicle itch" you seem to have scratched, and uses a fraction the energy of even an EV.

...and I have never made a car payment in my entire life.

You're not missing out.  Don't start now.

You own a fairly reliable tank.  Put a couple grand into a paint job and interior, get the AC fixed properly, and keep driving it, save the other $50k.  FFS.

[lifeisshort123]

Without knowing your financial picture, I am curious why a Lexus? My opinion is after 30 years, a new car may be in order.  I have a friend who drove a 90s Mercedes he absolutely loved, but it reached the point he was just simply putting too much into it.  He decided to purchase a slightly used Honda.

That brings me to my second question - is there a way that you could buy a used vehicle? I understand that they are more expensive right now than before, but generally speaking, they are still less expensive than a new vehicle.  They might have the advantage of the safety features you are looking for.  Do you know which features you are looking for specifically?  If a used is possible, I would buy the used personally.  Especially if you can get a guarantee from the Lexus dealer about warranty care, etc.

[chemistk]

I agree with Syonyk...

-why a new car now?
-why a Lexus?

I think you need to write out everything that you need from a car. Not what you want, but what you need. That should get you into the ballpark of the categories to look in.

Then, start to think about what you want from a car - be reasonable!

Some people just don't have the stomach for what seems like exponentially increasing maintenance, but at the same time you this isn't really the place to be kicking the tires on a luxury consumer product.

Moreover, you own a classic. Even if you decide that you must sell it, it would be worth your while to fix what needs fixing, detail it, and list it on Bring A Trailer or Cars and Bids.

[Dave1442397]

I would go for an L-Certified car if you can get the one you want. The ES 300h is a great car and gets good gas mileage.

The out-the-door price should be whatever you negotiate + sales tax + dealer doc charge + registration.

Dealer doc charges are capped in CA, and vary wildly elsewhere, depending on what they think they can get away with - https://joinyaa.com/guides/car-dealer-doc-fee-by-state/

Skip the extended warranty.

A review of the 300h:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPNc8y-PVE
And the last gen ES 350: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5q4Fk_T_1I

[ChpBstrd]

I don't think this is a real post - it's facepunch begging - but @Syonyk wins for best response.

[big_owl]

Lmao. We have $400k worth of cars at my house so I'm a consumer sucka...you sound like one too.  You make big dollars?   Because if you're a pretender you're just going to end up broke. And seriously...a Lexus?  Unless it's an LFA it's a POS. Try harder, I would recommend. 

[wageslave23]

I would buy a new Toyota Camry.  Reliable, safe, half the price, good gas mileage.  Use the other $25k on drugs...much more fun than the marginal benefit of driving a $50k car compared to a $25k car.

[Hibernaculum]

I would buy a new Toyota Camry.  Reliable, safe, half the price, good gas mileage.  Use the other $25k on drugs...much more fun than the marginal benefit of driving a $50k car compared to a $25k car.

I agree with wageslave23, a Camry could be a good option if the OP decides he really wants a new car.

At one point a while back, I had a Camry and my Dad has an ES 350. Compared to the Camry, the Lexus had:
poorer rear-view visibility (due to lower roofline)
a rougher ride
worse gas mileage
more complicated ergonomics

When my Dad bought a new car, he offered to trade his Lexus for my Camry. I said, "No, thank you."

[RWD]

You can get a used (2013-2015) Lexus ES 300h for under $20k. Lexus has done virtually zero innovation in the last decade (one of several reasons I don't recommend Toyota anymore) so you're not missing anything going with an older one.

[thesis]

I want to say first that if you have the money and are really set on buying a new car that costs that much money, there is nothing wrong about doing so. One of the issues with this forum is that we can get so caught up trying to save money that there's no easy way to factor individual preferences into the broader recommendations. It sounds like you bought a luxury vehicle many years ago and have loved the heck out of it, so I can understand why you are looking for another luxury vehicle.

That being said, you may not get the same reliability as existed back then, and, generally speaking, the more expensive the car, the greater the depreciation. Again, if you have the money and it means that much to you, there's nothing wrong with making the purchase. However, I feel like you can get an awful lot of luxury for a lot less. The issue is that if you aren't already FIREd, that extra money spent could eat a huge hole in your potential FIRE plans that sets you back several years. The real question to ask is if that's a trade you're willing to make for a more enjoyable ride. Is it the ride you want, or would it not even matter to you if you  were retired and didn't have to commute in the first place? But these are just questions to ask yourself.

Safety is not a bad consideration, but pretty much anything newer than what you have is going to have better safety features. Some people use safety to justify buying outrageously expensive cars, while the marginal gains seem to decrease year by year. That doesn't mean the overall gains in safety aren't still enormous, it's just that I'm not convinced a 2015 car is tremendously less safe than a 2022 car, for example, especially compared to a car from the early 90s.

[Paper Chaser]

Old stuff requires maintenance. That's just the way of the world. But that maintenance is often far cheaper than replacing the thing.

It sounds like you really enjoy the Volvo. A lot has changed in the automotive world since your Volvo was new, and you're not likely to get the things that you like about the Volvo in any modern vehicle.

If you really don't drive much, the fuel economy doesn't really factor into the situation, and I'm not sure that safety does very much either. How unsafe do you feel on your short commute that you want to spend $50k+ to feel safer? Things like better side impact crash structures, and side curtain airbags make the new vehicles safer, but they lead to higher beltlines and thicker pillars which limits visibility.
Better aerodynamics provide greater fuel efficiency, but often lead to laid back windshields and acres of dashboard that again hurts the visibility.

So you see, the things that appeal to you about new vehicles on the surface, also erode the things that you love about the old Volvo. They can't really coexist. Jumping into a modern vehicle after living with an early 90s car for decades is going to be a massive adjustment, and based on the things that you say you love about the Volvo I'm guessing you might not enjoy the newer ride as much as you think.

[Sandi_k]

Since mileage doesn't really matter, but luxury does, I am all in for luxury, and used.

I owned a 2009 RX350 for a decade - bought it new, and put 260k miles on it. I sold it in 2019, for $6k.

It had leather, a sport package, wood trim, and was *very* reliable.

So with used cars so expensive right now, I'd think that going older - say 10 years old - is still a huge upgrade from a 1991 Volvo.

If the OP is really interested in a Lexus, the Lexus forums are a great place to help ID the generation and model that would work best.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/

And for test drives and assessment between multiple models, I'd encourage to look at CarMax.

[Panly]

I read a bit of that other post about leasing a Lexus; suffice it to say, I think it is a reasonable option under some circumstances, possibly mine (not going to go into all my details here).

With A Lexus, You'd Look A Lot More Like A Golfer

[Syonyk]

Since mileage doesn't really matter, but luxury does, I am all in for luxury, and used.

I mean, seriously.  Who would even buy a car without air conditioned, massaging seats anymore?  That's, like, almost more important than wheels for a car.

Can you imagine driving a car these days without a 27 speaker surround sound system?  I mean, can you believe cars used to only have two speakers?  And not even HD radio?  It was, like, scratchy AM or FM, or... cassettes.  Or eight tracks.  Groady!

Anyway, this is why it's so important to lease.  Then you're only three years out of date on modern luxury features, all for one easy and ever-increasing car payment!  Just imagine how awful it would be if you paid off your car.  You'd have all this money, you'd go spend it on something else, and then when you had to replace the car, where would the money come from??? (I've literally heard this argument before to justify why you have to replace a car when it's paid off).

Sorry, a 1991 Volvo, well maintained, is just cool.  A modern Lexus is tacky and crass.  Keep the Volvo, it'll last the rest of your life if you take care of it, with how few miles you drive!  You could pay $10k to have someone go through it, fix what's a bit iffy, replace the insides, and still come out ahead!

I consider our 2012 Volt to be an absurdly nice car.  It's got leather, heated seats, satnav, keyfob based remote start/preheat... and as much I consider the heated seats a rather luxury item, they're an awful lot more efficient than heating the cabin with one or two people in the car.  I barely use the heater in the winter if it's just me in the car (usually hauling something, though the car costs less to run than the motorcycles if there's no conflict).  And I'm very, very glad I never went down the "luxury car" road, because I've literally watched it bring some friends to complete financial ruin (or, at least, was a major contributor to their financial ruin).  Nice to ride in, nice to drive (someone else's), I have no interest in a luxury car like that.

[FLAFI]

Look into a new Toyota Venza - similar to the RX at more reasonable price. We get 42 mpg in town and 37 mpg on the highway. Purchased it new for about $35,000 (before taxes). The high price of used hybrid cars made the decision to purchase new more reasonable. 

[secondcor521]

OP, you clearly don't need a new Lexus, you want one.

The phrase "go for it" in question 3 in the OP makes me wonder a bit about OP's frame of mind.  I don't usually think of my financial decisions with that phrasing.  I usually think of things in terms of "Is this in my and my family's long term best interests?" and "What is important to me here?" and "What are the tradeoffs I am making between money, time, convenience, features, etc.?"  The phrase "go for it" might represent a bit of FOMO thinking or peer pressure, both of which are likely not conducive to long term satisfaction.

I have a 1993 Lexus GS300.  It was a hand-me-down from my Dad when he stopped driving several years ago.  When he gave it to me, I sold my 1995 Toyota Corolla.  Honestly, except for the fact it was a wagon, I probably liked the Toyota better - better gas mileage (~30 vs. ~20 around town) and better visibility.  Although the Lexus has better interior trim - leather and wood vs. cloth and plastic-type stuff.  And the Lexus has heated seats, which as Syonyk mentions, are nice in the Idaho wintertime.  Reliability-wise, they've been about the same, which isn't surprising considering they share a lot of design, manufacture, and parts.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably look at, as others have mentioned, about a 10 year old Lexus.  It seems to me that price-wise, they depreciate more than they do value-wise in terms of how much good, safe driving you can get out of them if you keep them maintained.

I'm thinking about replacing the Lexus.  My mechanic says he won't work on cars that old any more, and finding parts is starting to be a bit of a challenge.  In my case I'm thinking of a 10 year old Honda Accord.  I would buy a 10 year old Camry but I don't like the Camry body styling in that time frame.

[Sandi_k]

Dude, you do understand I was replying to the OP's original post, right?

No need to be so snarky and rude.

Since mileage doesn't really matter, but luxury does, I am all in for luxury, and used.

I mean, seriously.  Who would even buy a car without air conditioned, massaging seats anymore?  That's, like, almost more important than wheels for a car.

Can you imagine driving a car these days without a 27 speaker surround sound system?  I mean, can you believe cars used to only have two speakers?  And not even HD radio?  It was, like, scratchy AM or FM, or... cassettes.  Or eight tracks.  Groady!

Anyway, this is why it's so important to lease.  Then you're only three years out of date on modern luxury features, all for one easy and ever-increasing car payment!  Just imagine how awful it would be if you paid off your car.  You'd have all this money, you'd go spend it on something else, and then when you had to replace the car, where would the money come from??? (I've literally heard this argument before to justify why you have to replace a car when it's paid off).

Sorry, a 1991 Volvo, well maintained, is just cool.  A modern Lexus is tacky and crass.  Keep the Volvo, it'll last the rest of your life if you take care of it, with how few miles you drive!  You could pay $10k to have someone go through it, fix what's a bit iffy, replace the insides, and still come out ahead!

I consider our 2012 Volt to be an absurdly nice car.  It's got leather, heated seats, satnav, keyfob based remote start/preheat... and as much I consider the heated seats a rather luxury item, they're an awful lot more efficient than heating the cabin with one or two people in the car.  I barely use the heater in the winter if it's just me in the car (usually hauling something, though the car costs less to run than the motorcycles if there's no conflict).  And I'm very, very glad I never went down the "luxury car" road, because I've literally watched it bring some friends to complete financial ruin (or, at least, was a major contributor to their financial ruin).  Nice to ride in, nice to drive (someone else's), I have no interest in a luxury car like that.

[Syonyk]

Dude, you do understand I was replying to the OP's original post, right?

Yes, I'm aware.  And it changes my opinion none.

No need to be so snarky and rude.

If this question had been asked a decade ago, it would have received the many facepunches it so deserved for talking about "What the best way to buy an expensive luxury car was when you have a perfectly good car already."

Honestly, I barely recognize the place anymore.  Lots of people helping justify luxury recliner purchases.  If you think I'm being an ass, feel free to report to the mods, at this point I don't particularly care if I get banned, because the place is a parody of what it once was.

[jinga nation]

a 1991 Volvo 740? Say no more. Convert to a sleeper.
https://dailyturismo.com/10k-looked-up-sleeper-in-dictionary/

checkout https://turbobricks.com/index.php and the forums there.

[Jon Bon]

Dude, you do understand I was replying to the OP's original post, right?

Yes, I'm aware.  And it changes my opinion none.

No need to be so snarky and rude.

If this question had been asked a decade ago, it would have received the many facepunches it so deserved for talking about "What the best way to buy an expensive luxury car was when you have a perfectly good car already."

Honestly, I barely recognize the place anymore.  Lots of people helping justify luxury recliner purchases.  If you think I'm being an ass, feel free to report to the mods, at this point I don't particularly care if I get banned, because the place is a parody of what it once was.

I think a lot of us just ended up getting rich(er). I have been reading this blog for ~10 years, my decision making and wealth has changed lots during that time. I am not going to put up with a shitty car/house/job/etc when I don't have too (because I now have moeny). IMO the entire purpose it to pursue happiness, not accumulate absurd piles of money by never spending it. Yeah, is a 60k Lexus a bit much? Probably, but different strokes for different folks and all. We recently replaced my POS Chrysler van with a brand new telluride. It did not feel sub optional to me, and I think I get to keep my MMM card.

I mean a guy that buys a new car every 30 years is ok with me? Can anyone else say that? Longest I have owned a car is maybe 5?

[Sandi_k]

Again - a 10 year old Lexus isn't $60k. *That's* what I was recommending.

I agree that being prudent and frugal makes sense; being good stewards makes sense. But wearing sacks and ashcloth while we pile up money isn't necessary. There IS a middle ground here.

If we're active on this forum, can we just take for granted that we're not idiots?

[Just Joe]

We carpool daily in a 23 year old car we bought new.  300K+ miles. Quite affordable and reliable. I DIY all the maintenance. I would not hesitate to drive this car across the continent.
We keep a nicer family vehicle on standby for the weekends. Bought it with 45K miles off-lease from CarMax. Good price according to NADA and KBB. Is still like new with ~115K miles.

Test drive alot of different cars b/c you may miss the simplicity of your Volvo after the fun of the modern spaceships wears off. I find for trips around town I prefer our older, smaller car.

As much as I am a geek about technology, I didn't like the complexity of the nice car when we first bought it. Too many functions.

FWIW I hate the typical dealership experience. The fake salesman welcome sets me right off.

CarMax (good) and Carvana (okay) were good. I have used both multiple times to purchase vehicles for my employer too. Prices were in line with KBB and NADA. I did not ever finance anything with them or rely on them for repairs b/c it was 100% reliable. Our nicer car was financed for 36 months with our bank. We paid it off in 24 or so.

[alsoknownasDean]

Neither in the current market. Used and new prices are high due to lack of supply. Better off waiting a couple of years until there's enough cars around that you can get a decent discount compared to new.

Ultimately the 740 will fare similarly in a crash today to what it did in 1991, assuming it's well maintained.

Also how much would you lose by buying a Camry instead of a Lexus ES? They're the same car underneath after all. Even a modern day Corolla isn't that far off a 740 in size.

[RWD]

Also how much would you lose by buying a Camry instead of a Lexus ES? They're the same car underneath after all. Even a modern day Corolla isn't that far off a 740 in size.

The last couple generations of Lexus ES are based on the Toyota Avalon, not the Camry.

[Dicey]

Whenever I get to jonesing for a new car, I calculate the sales tax and first year registration vs. what I pay to register my current vehicle. If the number isnt shockingly huge enough, I call my insurance agent and add in that difference. Then I allot a tiny fraction of that amount (<10%) on fixing up my existing vehicle + doing something fun. Worked well enough to get me to Fat-ass FIRE.

Congratulations on only putting 200k on the Volvo in 30 years. Which reminds me: you probably know all those stories of amazing Volvo longevity. Looks like you're perfectly situated to become another one.

@Syonyk, your hilarious posts felt like a blast from the past. Even if this place has gone "soft", the larger consumer sukka culture has gotten even softer. There is still plenty of value here. While many of us have discovered how well this shit works, they're still not teaching Personal Finance in schools, are they?

[Syonyk]

Then I allot a tiny fraction of that amount (<10%) on fixing up my existing vehicle + doing something fun. Worked well enough to get me to Fat-ass FIRE.

Sounds very reasonable to me!  A bit spent on detailing, some new shocks, or a cold air intake scratches the "I want to spend money on a vehicle" itch nicely, and is far cheaper than replacing stuff!  Though some of my vehicles have been a bit more demanding lately... nearly $2k on a new final drive for one of the Urals after it ripped a couple teeth off the ring gear.

Syonyk, your hilarious posts felt like a blast from the past. Even if this place has gone "soft", the larger consumer sukka culture has gotten even softer. There is still plenty of value here. While many of us have discovered how well this shit works, they're still not teaching Personal Finance in schools, are they?

Thanks, glad someone appreciates it.  Since the forum lately feels a lot like "I want to buy a new car!"  "Yes, you totally deserve it, buy one!" lately, I do my best to offer at least some counterweight.  For whatever good it probably isn't doing.

I assume they're still teaching Personal Finance in schools the way they always have.  "Here's how to balance your budget, here's how to figure out how many monthly payments you can have, and here's how to ensure that you're not running your credit card balances too high... but All Hail the Mighty Credit Score!"  Nothing actually useful.

[ChpBstrd]

Whenever I get to jonesing for a new car, I calculate the sales tax and first year registration vs. what I pay to register my current vehicle. If the number isnt shockingly huge enough, I call my insurance agent and add in that difference. Then I allot a tiny fraction of that amount (<10%) on fixing up my existing vehicle + doing something fun.

Yea for a lot of people a $2,000 transmission or $3,000 new engine are reasons to trash an otherwise decent car and head out to the finance lots. I suppose the thought just doesn't occur that they'll be spending more than those astronomical repair amounts just on crap that one gets absolutely nothing for. Think about the sales tax, $300 floor mats, "delivery fee", $200 pinstripes, "finance fee", "credit check fee", much higher insurance premiums, paperwork fees, $150 bumper applique, and property tax. That's all BEFORE they lose 10-15% of the vehicle's cost in day-one depreciation. In contrast, when you buy a new engine or transmission, you've actually received a valuable service for your money instead of just paying a fee or tax, and you're now in a car that will cost a lot less to own for the next few years than the new one.

The MMM forum is definitely getting soft. Maybe I should bring up this fact to the "Top is In" thread as evidence of capitulation.

[ChickenStash]

Besides having a sufficient e-fund credit limit, another tough part about dropping a few Gs on a new or rebuilt engine or trans for the average person is finding a shop that can actually do the work correctly. There's a lot of voodoo-magic involved in those systems that are beyond the skills of an average mechanic. I've known quite a few folks that dropped 1-2k on a trans rebuild from a, supposedly, good shop only to get a few thousand miles before it failed again.

Perhaps shops are bad at those repairs because they don't do them often because people just go buy new cars because shops are bad at those repairs.

[Syonyk]

Yea for a lot of people a $2,000 transmission or $3,000 new engine are reasons to trash an otherwise decent car and head out to the finance lots.

I used to have this argument with people, until I figured out that it was the "socially acceptable way to justify a new car."  So I just started telling people that if they're going to do that, let me know and I might buy their old one off them for a bit more than the scrapyard would give them.

I suppose the thought just doesn't occur that they'll be spending more than those astronomical repair amounts just on crap that one gets absolutely nothing for.

The argument I've heard to justify it goes something like this:

"Who on earth has a few thousand dollars around to pay for that kind of repair?  At least with a new car, it's just regular monthly payments!  Besides, who's to say that after you replace the engine, a wheel won't fall off?  Or the transmission won't fail?  It's an old car now, they're unreliable, and you know, they can eat you alive in repair costs!"  And it goes on along those lines about how nobody can afford to pay for repairs, but, gosh, a low monthly payment, well now, that's easy to afford, etc.

The MMM forum is definitely getting soft. Maybe I should bring up this fact to the "Top is In" thread as evidence of capitulation.

I don't have a problem with replacing cars every now and then, but I still consider "luxury" brand to be spending for the sake of being seen spending.

Perhaps shops are bad at those repairs because they don't do them often because people just go buy new cars because shops are bad at those repairs.

Probably. :/  Ending is better than mending!  The more the stitches, the less the riches.  And all that.

[Dave1442397]

Whenever I get to jonesing for a new car, I calculate the sales tax and first year registration vs. what I pay to register my current vehicle. If the number isnt shockingly huge enough, I call my insurance agent and add in that difference. Then I allot a tiny fraction of that amount (<10%) on fixing up my existing vehicle + doing something fun.

Yeah for a lot of people a $2,000 transmission or $3,000 new engine are reasons to trash an otherwise decent car and head out to the finance lots. I suppose the thought just doesn't occur that they'll be spending more than those astronomical repair amounts just on crap that one gets absolutely nothing for. Think about the sales tax, $300 floor mats, "delivery fee", $200 pinstripes, "finance fee", "credit check fee", much higher insurance premiums, paperwork fees, $150 bumper applique, and property tax. That's all BEFORE they lose 10-15% of the vehicle's cost in day-one depreciation. In contrast, when you buy a new engine or transmission, you've actually received a valuable service for your money instead of just paying a fee or tax, and you're now in a car that will cost a lot less to own for the next few years than the new one.

The MMM forum is definitely getting soft. Maybe I should bring up this fact to the "Top is In" thread as evidence of capitulation.

I had a 1994 Ford Thunderbird SC with 128,000 miles on it when the transmission went out. A rebuild cost me close to $3,000 at the time (late '90s). A couple of years and 10k miles later, these are the issues it had when I dropped it off with my mechanic (I still have the Word doc I printed and left in the car for him):

Problems:

1)   Strong vibration when car is in park, drive, or reverse with the brake on (engine mounts?).

2)   Left front headlight is out, sometimes comes on, sometimes doesn’t.

3)   Power steering is kicking back when car is doing 70mph or over and I’m trying to steer to the right (notice it changing lanes or on right-hand curves on the highway).

4)   Need oil change and tire rotation.

5)   5 amp fuse for climate controls has blown twice in past 1000 miles or so.

6)   Check engine light comes on 5-10 mins after cold start.

My mechanic checked the car, and said to trade it in while I still could. It looked like new, but the engine vibration was something serious (I forget what) and he estimated it would cost $3,500 just to fix that, never mind all the other issues. I traded it in for a used 1996 Lexus ES 300, which never had a problem.

Oddly enough, I worked with a guy back in 2011 who also had a Ford T-Bird SC ('95), and I told him why I got rid of mine. He said he had the same engine issue, was told it could be a $5,000 fix, and it ended up costing $8,500 by the time it was all done. No way would I have put that much into a car with 137,000 miles and all those problems.

[Dicey]

Whenever I get to jonesing for a new car, I calculate the sales tax and first year registration vs. what I pay to register my current vehicle. If the number isnt shockingly huge enough, I call my insurance agent and add in that difference. Then I allot a tiny fraction of that amount (<10%) on fixing up my existing vehicle + doing something fun.

Yeah for a lot of people a $2,000 transmission or $3,000 new engine are reasons to trash an otherwise decent car and head out to the finance lots. I suppose the thought just doesn't occur that they'll be spending more than those astronomical repair amounts just on crap that one gets absolutely nothing for. Think about the sales tax, $300 floor mats, "delivery fee", $200 pinstripes, "finance fee", "credit check fee", much higher insurance premiums, paperwork fees, $150 bumper applique, and property tax. That's all BEFORE they lose 10-15% of the vehicle's cost in day-one depreciation. In contrast, when you buy a new engine or transmission, you've actually received a valuable service for your money instead of just paying a fee or tax, and you're now in a car that will cost a lot less to own for the next few years than the new one.

The MMM forum is definitely getting soft. Maybe I should bring up this fact to the "Top is In" thread as evidence of capitulation.

I had a 1994 Ford Thunderbird SC with 128,000 miles on it when the transmission went out. A rebuild cost me close to $3,000 at the time (late '90s). A couple of years and 10k miles later, these are the issues it had when I dropped it off with my mechanic (I still have the Word doc I printed and left in the car for him):

Problems:

1)   Strong vibration when car is in park, drive, or reverse with the brake on (engine mounts?).

2)   Left front headlight is out, sometimes comes on, sometimes doesn’t.

3)   Power steering is kicking back when car is doing 70mph or over and I’m trying to steer to the right (notice it changing lanes or on right-hand curves on the highway).

4)   Need oil change and tire rotation.

5)   5 amp fuse for climate controls has blown twice in past 1000 miles or so.

6)   Check engine light comes on 5-10 mins after cold start.

My mechanic checked the car, and said to trade it in while I still could. It looked like new, but the engine vibration was something serious (I forget what) and he estimated it would cost $3,500 just to fix that, never mind all the other issues. I traded it in for a used 1996 Lexus ES 300, which never had a problem.

Oddly enough, I worked with a guy back in 2011 who also had a Ford T-Bird SC ('95), and I told him why I got rid of mine. He said he had the same engine issue, was told it could be a $5,000 fix, and it ended up costing $8,500 by the time it was all done. No way would I have put that much into a car with 137,000 miles and all those problems.

But it wasn't a Volvo, lol.

[Syonyk]

4)   Need oil change and tire rotation.

You don't get to count regular maintenance you can do in your driveway as "problems justifying getting rid of a car." :p

I consider most cars to be 200k mile+ items, with most of the low stress Japanese engines going to 300k, so getting rid of a car at before 150k is insane to me.  We've done it when trading a car in, but I don't consider those to be financial decisions I'd brag about (well, trading the Mazda 3 in for a used Volt, while a less fun to drive car, certainly is paying off at current gas prices - almost all our miles are electric except for road trips).

In any case, the Volvo in question sounds like it's doing fine, just could use a couple grand of "spruce up the interior" work.  Or a nice twin turbo V8 swap.

[AccidentialMustache]

Maybe OP got a heads up about CA's future ban of (new) gas-only cars and is looking for something that can become a classic in 20-30 years, post-ban?

[RWD]

Maybe OP got a heads up about CA's future ban of (new) gas-only cars and is looking for something that can become a classic in 20-30 years, post-ban?

Considering a 1992 Lexus ES is only worth about $3k I wouldn't hold my breath for a 2022 model to become a desirable classic either.

[Dave1442397]

4)   Need oil change and tire rotation.

You don't get to count regular maintenance you can do in your driveway as "problems justifying getting rid of a car." :p

Exactly. It was on the list because I was expecting to keep the car. I didn't have a driveway at the time, just a condo with an HOA that prohibited working on cars in the parking lot. I really liked that car. I would have loved to keep it for a lot longer.

Now I have a 2011 Lexus, and will be replacing the thermostat and water pump in my garage. The thermostat is sticking, so I might as well do the water pump while I'm taking things apart.

[lifeisshort123]

I’m never eager to replace when repair is a realistic option.  It seems to me the replace crowd really markets on “fear”.  I’m kind of reminded of MMM’s articles about insurance and security.  That’s the biggest argument for replacement it seems.

Recently we had an A/C coil in our home go.  The overal units are in great condition, and are only 6 years old.  The argument was “buy a whole new unit, not just the coil so you get a 10 year warranty”.  I think that’s why people buy new cars.  The “security” (perceived) of a new vehicle and the perceived decreased risk of unexpected expenses.

That said, I think after about 200k-300k, it isn’t a bad idea to replace.  Anything before that, I question.

[Sandi_k]

That said, I think after about 200k-300k, it isn’t a bad idea to replace.  Anything before that, I question.

It's not just mileage - it's also the age.

Plastic and rubber start cracking and failing after 2 decades exposed to heat. Motor mounts, suspension, shocks, pneumatic hatches, brake linings, master cylinders, window rubber - all get old and fail over time.

[Syonyk]

Plastic and rubber start cracking and failing after 2 decades exposed to heat. Motor mounts, suspension, shocks, pneumatic hatches, brake linings, master cylinders, window rubber - all get old and fail over time.

Sure, so replace them.  Or buy less complex cars in the first place.  As long as the frame and body aren't rusting out, you can replace that stuff easily enough.

"My roof needs replacement after 30 years!" isn't normally solved by tearing the house down and building another one.  Yet we consider this normal with cars somehow.

[lifeisshort123]

Plastic and rubber start cracking and failing after 2 decades exposed to heat. Motor mounts, suspension, shocks, pneumatic hatches, brake linings, master cylinders, window rubber - all get old and fail over time.

Sure, so replace them.  Or buy less complex cars in the first place.  As long as the frame and body aren't rusting out, you can replace that stuff easily enough.

"My roof needs replacement after 30 years!" isn't normally solved by tearing the house down and building another one.  Yet we consider this normal with cars somehow.

Yes, but there are some differences here - one is the cost and the value of the item.  Homes are much more valuable, and harder to replace, than cars.  Additionally, overall, home technology doesn’t change that much over 20 years, or can more easily be retrofitted than cars are able to be. 

I am pleased that cars hold up much better than years ago.  I hope that continues - that is a huge part of helping reduce ecological impact and also helping people reduce costs. 

The problem also is, car repairs frequently exceed the value of the vessel, and the vehicle itself is a depreciating asset.  The roof repair is maybe let’s say 10% (or less) of the value of the home/property.  It is not uncommon for the value of car repairs to exceed the value of the vehicle (and therefore at a minimum what the value would be to replace that vehicle with a comparable one). 

I prefer buying new and sticking with the car forever, but freely admit the best way to go is to buy used (maybe 15-20k miles) and then hold the vehicle forever.  We all have our vanities….

[Syonyk]

Yes, but there are some differences here - one is the cost and the value of the item.  Homes are much more valuable, and harder to replace, than cars.

I know plenty of people who have purchased cars that cost more than our house did.

The problem also is, car repairs frequently exceed the value of the vessel...

So?  "Gosh, this engine might be $1000 to repair, better go spend $50,000 instead!" is still stupid.

By "50% of the vehicle's value" standard, I've "totaled" many, many cars I've owned with things like "a set of tires."  Or "A new exhaust system."  Yet, the cars were entirely better than they were before, and I've only sent one car to the junkyard - even the ones I pulled out of the junkyard "runs & drives" row went to other people after I'd gotten through repairing them, driving them for years, etc.

[lutorm]

The problem also is, car repairs frequently exceed the value of the vessel, and the vehicle itself is a depreciating asset.  The roof repair is maybe let’s say 10% (or less) of the value of the home/property.  It is not uncommon for the value of car repairs to exceed the value of the vehicle (and therefore at a minimum what the value would be to replace that vehicle with a comparable one). 

This isn't really a relevant metric, though, is it? The "value of the vehicle" is only relevant if you're going to sell it. So what if the repairs cost as much as you'd get for the vehicle if you sold it? What matters is if you could buy a vehicle needing significantly less repairs for the cost of said repairs. At that point it's an economically advantageous decision. But normally that's gotta be some pretty significant repairs, like a bent frame or something. Even for a blown head gasket you can probably find a junkyard motor cheap enough that replacing the entire vehicle doesn't make (economic) sense.

Of course, there are other concerns, too, like not getting the vehicle to such a flaky state that you get stuck on an interstate somewhere, that make it not entirely an economical question. Even disregarding vanity. ;-)

[Arbitrage]

I'll chime in with a tip of my cap to the old-school MMM crowd. 

Kudos to OP on keeping a beater car for so long.  Facepunch to OP for being on the verge of buying a crazy-expensive luxury car. 

Cars are not status symbols; they are colossal wastes of money and ruin cities.  Get yourself an e-bike to improve yourself, your city, your finances and even the earth. 

If you really still need a car for some things that cannot be accomplished by e-bike or transit with occasional rideshare (unfortunately pretty likely if you live in the USA or Canada), find yourself a reliable, used small sedan or hatchback.  Maybe go electric if you must drive a car.

[calimom]

An old high school friend stopped by for a visit last weekend, passing through. One of the first things he said was "God are you still driving that old Volvo?" It's a 2008 V70 that was purchased used some years ago from the original owner who bought it in Sweden. It still has the Swedish license tag (of course mostly covered over with a CA plate) I think it's gorgeous, it's the best car I've ever had, so great on maintenance while not especially impressive with MPG. It has the optional third row seat which was great when I was still driving carpools and such and still comes in handy. I'll drive it till it no longer makes sense and will replace it with some sort of EV most likely.

He pulled up in an Audi SUV which replaced another similar vehicle, all expensively leased. He lives in LA and claims to "need" such a car to impress clients. Do they care?

OP, are you stuck on the Lexus? What are the other options between an almost 30 year old Volvo and a new Lexus? And if you do go for the car of your dreams, you'll likely keep it for a long time. Though 2035 is not THAT far off.

[Syonyk]

He lives in LA and claims to "need" such a car to impress clients. Do they care?

I've found that's a lot of justification for a nice car... mostly.  Though in some fields it might matter, you can always use the "old luxury car" loophole for huge cost savings, assuming you don't mind the maintenance.

It's 2022.  A 2015 or newer luxury car is fairly new.  A 2005 is just old.  But a 1985 (well maintained and clean) is obviously something you drive because you want to.  Bonus points for tape over the headlights or the occasional autocross number on the windshield.  If I ever found myself in such a field, I'd have gone with an old something or other, well maintained.

Of course, you can just show up on a motorcycle and solve most of that too.

[RWD]

Seems this was just a drive-by posting. @ObviouslyNotAGolfer hasn't responded to any of the replies.

[alsoknownasDean]

Besides having a sufficient e-fund credit limit, another tough part about dropping a few Gs on a new or rebuilt engine or trans for the average person is finding a shop that can actually do the work correctly. There's a lot of voodoo-magic involved in those systems that are beyond the skills of an average mechanic. I've known quite a few folks that dropped 1-2k on a trans rebuild from a, supposedly, good shop only to get a few thousand miles before it failed again.

Perhaps shops are bad at those repairs because they don't do them often because people just go buy new cars because shops are bad at those repairs.

Most of the time it's cheaper to just swap in a known good unit rather than rebuild.

That said, I think after about 200k-300k, it isn’t a bad idea to replace.  Anything before that, I question.

It's not just mileage - it's also the age.

Plastic and rubber start cracking and failing after 2 decades exposed to heat. Motor mounts, suspension, shocks, pneumatic hatches, brake linings, master cylinders, window rubber - all get old and fail over time.

I tend to take the view of '15 years and/or 250,000km should be easily achievable, any more is a bonus'. Although given the reliability/quality of many modern cars, the current new/used car market and a climate where roads aren't salted in winter, it's not all that uncommon to see cars of 20 years old still on the roads. Especially Toyotas.

[nereo]

Seems this was just a drive-by posting. @ObviouslyNotAGolfer hasn't responded to any of the replies.

Which is weird, as s/he’s a frequent poster.

[HikeMountains]

I would buy a new Toyota Camry.  Reliable, safe, half the price, good gas mileage.  Use the other $25k on drugs...much more fun than the marginal benefit of driving a $50k car compared to a $25k car.

This is what we are considering - looking at a new Camry LE hybrid for $33 OTD. Our 2008 Jeep patriot is making less financial sense each day given repairs.