Author Topic: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees  (Read 3164 times)

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
I have been working towards FIRE since I came on this concept a few years ago.  Learned lots of great things while lurking, all while looking towards getting out of the rat race.

I used to travel for business, and drive to / from the office.  Start a year or two before the pandemic, I started full time WFH, with the rare business travel or office visit.  I pretty much haven't traveled since start of COVID, and am amazed how better the video conferencing technologies have gotten, that I pretty much am able to keep in touch and do all of the collaborative work via virtual meetings with none of the hassles.

I have a project now where an old school project manager is requesting me to travel on-site every month for 2-3 days.  The location is very inconvenient to get to, since airlines have slashed flights and no direct flights exist any more.  Instead of hopping on a 2-3 hour direct flight, it now takes 6-8 hours via flight connections to get there.   Adding in time to pack, prep, get to the airport, pick up rental car, etc., overall time is now 10-11 hours to get from door to door.

I pushed back on the project manager and declined to be on-site, when virtual meetings have worked just fine.  It seems to be pretty ridiculous to demand employees to travel these days for work, if virtual meetings can work just fine.  Airline flight cancelations are sky high, disease transmission is pretty high, and traveling is generally a pretty unpleasant business.  It seems to be time theft from employees to ask them to travel if an alternate work mode is available.

I feel the same way about having to mindlessly commute daily to the office to do the same thing one could do from the home.  The collaborative tools such as slack, teams, all do a very good job of allowing remote collaboration.  I'm not sure why employees are still being demanded to spend 1-3 hours per day to drive to an office to do the same thing they could have done from home, for those types of jobs where it may apply.

I wonder why more people don't view the non-paid time to travel to / from work, business travel, as time theft from their day when they could be either more productive, or getting personal things done. 

There is a high cost to this type of practice, to the employees, as well as the planet in terms of climate change.  I hope this type of attitude can change, and travel / commuting can be trimmed down to save employees time and the planet.  With less traffic, those employees who do have to travel to work for necessary tasks will have less traffic to deal with, and get to work  home much faster as well.

I'm not sure why any climate change champions don't deal with this topic...it can make such a major improvement in quality of life for employees, with virtually no loss in productivity from employers.  We need to get rid of the old school mentality that people need to commute to a central location to do work in farm like cubicles.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 11:53:24 AM by FireBound »

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2022, 02:52:48 PM »
Wow, I am generally a fan of Malcom Gladwell, but am astounded he would slam work from home in his recent podcast:  https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/malcolm-gladwell-slams-working-from-home/

This is insanity.  People are unhealthier than ever, global climate change is making things worse, and yet we should stop and think about the welfare of the corporate overlords who need us to waste hours per day commuting mindlessly to and from the office every day....costing us tons of money in health, car expense, clothing expense, and time with family?

The tone-deaf cries of "think about the corporation!!" is really bothersome.  The quote
Quote
"people need to come into the office in order to regain a “sense of belonging” and to feel part of something larger than themselves.

“It’s very hard to feel necessary when you’re physically disconnected,” the Canadian writer said."
is just ancient pre-historic thinking.

Thanks to video conference calls, texting, I am more in tune with my colleagues and employer than ever. Sometimes too much.  I don't need to commute to the damn office to waste more of my time socializing instead of getting things done.  I have a healthier sense of belonging when I spend more time at home with my family, friends, and neighbors, instead of being gone all day and barely seeing the people that matter to me most.  This is shocking and aggravating.

We need to change the culture of work.  This type of dinosaur thinking is what is wrong with people who have influence but zero understanding of how much time they are stealing from the employees.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 02:58:09 PM by FireBound »

lifeisshort123

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2022, 03:05:30 PM »
It would be wonderful for meaningful worker protections establishing what is work time and what is non-work time.  I guarantee you if companies had to compensate their employees for these types of travel excursions, they would feel differently.

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2022, 03:07:47 PM »
It would be wonderful for meaningful worker protections establishing what is work time and what is non-work time.  I guarantee you if companies had to compensate their employees for these types of travel excursions, they would feel differently.
100%.

Not only should companies be required to compensate employees for travel / commute time, but also the impact on the environment from all of the carbon expenditures.  There should be a tax on companies forcing employees to commute to an office and back.

We are subsidizing the daily horrible commutes with pollution in our cities, avoidable car accidents if there was less traffic, reduced sleep that many people desperately need and could use instead of driving 1-3 hours per day, and all of the increased expenditures of having to commute / travel that could be avoided by virtual meeting technologies that are here today.

lifeisshort123

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2022, 03:36:06 PM »
I agree that much of the world and work can, and should be allowed to be done virtually.  There are some things (schools, hospitals, dentists) that nearly always need to be run in person.

There are some things (negotiations, lawyer meeting with clients) that sometimes need to be done face to face due to sensitive topics.

BUT, MUCH or MANY “meetings” and much of the “actual work” that people do, can easily be done from home.  I hate the people who say “well they won’t actually work”.  Sounds to me like you don’t know how to hire people, manage people, or aren’t willing to pay them a decent wage.  When I read stories about people double dipping and working 2 jobs from home during the same hours, I just think these companies didn’t know how to create labor positions in the first place. 

joe189man

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 908
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2022, 03:41:23 PM »
I hate commuting just as much as the next person, but saying your employer is responsible to compensate you for that time or should pay a Tax is pretty ridiculous.

Traveling for work should be paid time.




mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10881
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2022, 03:49:45 PM »
My husband travels for business, and business travel is considered work time, so he does get paid for it.  Now, he's paid by the hour usually, so that's the catch there.  If he is expected to fly on Sunday to be somewhere by Monday morning, then he is paid for Sunday.  Likewise, when his Friday flight is cancelled and he has to fly home on Saturday, he gets paid.

My company doesn't do it this way, but I haven't traveled 9 years or so.  When I do, I'll be sure to travel during the daytime as much as I can.

On the flip side, a commute is not "company time".  It really isn't.  I have had coworkers who fly in for work.  One of them flew in every single day.  Now, he was actually able to work during his commute, so yeah, that counted as work time.  The people who travel in on Sunday and leave on Weds, if they aren't working, then they aren't getting paid during that time. 

Malcolm Gladwell is disappointing, sure.  However, he's not totally wrong.  I have been in my company for 14 years, so I am a part of something.  I know most of these people, so I don't need to be physically present.

However...we have been growing, and a fair # of our employees do need to be  physically present to do their jobs, and it's very helpful for THEM to have people around that they can ask things of...and to feel like they are a part of something.  New employees DO need that.

For me, hybrid is perfect.  I LOVE WORKING AT HOME IN MY JAMMIES.  I can throw something in the crockpot, and I can wash the breakfast dishes after eating lunch and taking the dog out for a 10 min walk.  I also like being at the office- there are definite benefits to that, but eating lunch out is not one of them.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2022, 03:57:34 PM »
Malcolm Gladwell: Working From Home Is Destroying Us!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgEs61k2mxY

MG, as a shill: "If you're just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live?"

Well, yes. Yes, it is.

Dave1442397

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Location: NJ
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2022, 04:14:35 PM »
I have no desire to 'feel a part of something' (well, as far as companies go). I consider myself a hired gun. You pay me, I work. I have no stake in the company, and they would get rid of me in a heartbeat if they felt like it.

WFH is the best thing ever for me. No more commuting stress makes such a difference. I'm sure I'm more productive at home than at the office, with all the distractions of the workplace.

big_owl

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2022, 04:19:08 PM »
The other unspoken cost of the "road warrior" lifestyle is the toll it takes on the members of the family left alone at home to try and take care of daily life.  Now that I transitiined to a consulting engineer instead of full time company man I get paid travel time.  I still hate being away but at least im paid very well for it.  Overtime even. 

joe189man

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 908
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2022, 04:59:22 PM »
It would be wonderful for meaningful worker protections establishing what is work time and what is non-work time.  I guarantee you if companies had to compensate their employees for these types of travel excursions, they would feel differently.
100%.

Not only should companies be required to compensate employees for travel / commute time, but also the impact on the environment from all of the carbon expenditures.  There should be a tax on companies forcing employees to commute to an office and back.

We are subsidizing the daily horrible commutes with pollution in our cities, avoidable car accidents if there was less traffic, reduced sleep that many people desperately need and could use instead of driving 1-3 hours per day, and all of the increased expenditures of having to commute / travel that could be avoided by virtual meeting technologies that are here today.

Requiring companies to pay for commute time is ridiculous, period. Who is subsidizing what in regards to your commute?

You are mixing what an employer "owes" their employees with what is good for the planet/climate. Your employer owes you a paycheck to do your job, that's it, end of contract.


PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2022, 05:02:55 PM »
Not only should companies be required to compensate employees for travel / commute time, but also the impact on the environment from all of the carbon expenditures.  There should be a tax on companies forcing employees to commute to an office and back.

So the farther away I choose to live from work the more I should get paid? Employers should subsidize the exurbs? That sounds bad for business, bad for incentivizing living close to work, and just generally a really bad idea. Unless the company is free to say "only apply if you live walking distance to the office" which seems like it would piss off basically everyone.

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2022, 05:06:49 PM »

Requiring companies to pay for commute time is ridiculous, period. Who is subsidizing what in regards to your commute?

You are mixing what an employer "owes" their employees with what is good for the planet/climate. Your employer owes you a paycheck to do your job, that's it, end of contract.
Wrong.  Requiring employees to commute to the office when they could work remotely is ridiculous.  The negative impact on the environment is real and employers should pay a price just like employees, if they choose to force someone to drive when they could work remotely without impact to the environment.

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2022, 05:08:28 PM »

So the farther away I choose to live from work the more I should get paid? Employers should subsidize the exurbs? That sounds bad for business, bad for incentivizing living close to work, and just generally a really bad idea. Unless the company is free to say "only apply if you live walking distance to the office" which seems like it would piss off basically everyone.
Only if your work could be done remotely.  If your work can be done remotely just as effectively, why should you be required to drive to work no matter how far or how close you live to some arbitrary office? 

They could make an exception if you don't drive, don't add to pollution, then there is no fee or tax.  But there is a real cost to the environment for every mile you drive.

FireBound

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2022, 05:10:48 PM »
The other unspoken cost of the "road warrior" lifestyle is the toll it takes on the members of the family left alone at home to try and take care of daily life.  Now that I transitiined to a consulting engineer instead of full time company man I get paid travel time.  I still hate being away but at least im paid very well for it.  Overtime even.
Very true.  The family is left to fend for themselves while you're gone, including missing family time with you.

If you're being paid to travel, at least you can save that money and cut your work career shorter and spend more time down the road with family.

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6657
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2022, 05:17:43 PM »
It would be wonderful for meaningful worker protections establishing what is work time and what is non-work time.  I guarantee you if companies had to compensate their employees for these types of travel excursions, they would feel differently.
100%.

Not only should companies be required to compensate employees for travel / commute time, but also the impact on the environment from all of the carbon expenditures.  There should be a tax on companies forcing employees to commute to an office and back.

We are subsidizing the daily horrible commutes with pollution in our cities, avoidable car accidents if there was less traffic, reduced sleep that many people desperately need and could use instead of driving 1-3 hours per day, and all of the increased expenditures of having to commute / travel that could be avoided by virtual meeting technologies that are here today.

Why on earth should people be paid for regular commute times?  If I choose to live 2 hours away from work and spend 4 hours driving, that's on me.  It's not time "theft" if I willingly give it away.  I could choose to live 5 minutes away instead.  I can see that argument if the workplace moves and increases commute time, or if the job offer included WFH and then that goes away.  Otherwise, that is employee's choice and entirely within the employee's control. 

And that also seems like it would encourage people to live further away, so it would have the opposite affect on he environment.  If anything, employers should offer bonuses to employees with short commutes.  That actually incentivizes the environmentally-friendly choices. 

I do think when there is business travel involved, there's a strong case to be made for paying for travel time, especially for hourly employees. 

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2022, 05:29:07 PM »
So the farther away I choose to live from work the more I should get paid? Employers should subsidize the exurbs? That sounds bad for business, bad for incentivizing living close to work, and just generally a really bad idea. Unless the company is free to say "only apply if you live walking distance to the office" which seems like it would piss off basically everyone.
Only if your work could be done remotely.  If your work can be done remotely just as effectively, why should you be required to drive to work no matter how far or how close you live to some arbitrary office? 

Which new government agency will be in charge of deciding if I can do my job from home? Who will set the rules? How often can I be asked to come in for a face-to-face? Once a year? Once a quarter? What if I'm only 80% as effective at home?

They could make an exception if you don't drive, don't add to pollution, then there is no fee or tax.  But there is a real cost to the environment for every mile you drive.

Almost like some sort of tax on driving? That sounds great, why push it onto the employer if I'm choosing to drive to work?

lifeisshort123

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2022, 06:31:42 PM »
Commuting payments would be a tough sell.  Keep in mind the IRS explicitly prohibits even self-employed people from taking commuting miles as a deduction.

Also, it would be limiting to employees in the end.  People who are otherwise great fits wouldn’t be hired because they live too far, even if they are willing to drive because of the economics.

What I was referring to, is the poor guy who is supposed to work M-F 9-5, but ends up having to fly out on Sunday, and return on Saturdays, for example.  It seems reasonable to me that his employer should provide something to renumerate him - especially if he is an hourly employee, but perhaps even for salaried employees since it falls outside of normal working hours.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2022, 10:36:59 PM »
What a ridiculous statement.

Work environments, past a very low bar of minimum wage and worksite safety that applies to approximately none of the cubicle bee population on this forum, are dictated by market forces.

You just have way less leverage than you'd like. That doesn't make it theft.

moneytaichi

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2022, 11:49:33 PM »
Our company has a hybrid schedule. After a few times of visiting the office in person, I concluded it's exhausting to drive 30-40 minutes and sit in a closed conference room with a dozen people. I just told my boss that I will NOT travel / do work lunch / attend large in-person meetings until the Omicron vaccine is out, due to my compromised immune system. She understands completely and supports that. But I had to reiterate to my colleagues several times to make them understand and accept my decision.

I think it's a balance of your bargaining power & personal preferences vs people who have their preferences and their power levels. Good for anyone who stands up and draws a line. FIRE gives us ultimate power and peace of mind.

Must_ache

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
  • Age: 52
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2022, 06:38:22 AM »
Unless you are hot stuff I think you would likely be replaceable with someone local who isn't going to cost the company to drive to work.  I don't see that sort of arrangement working.

ATtiny85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2022, 07:05:00 AM »
Very welcoming to a relatively new poster…sheesh, come on.

I learned from a coworker long ago to not let “them” schedule customer visits such that you have to travel on weekends. We had mostly international trips, so that meant controlling things to be Tuesday to Thursday, and wrap up in time to make the overnight flight back to Europe. Just say no, not available to other times.

lucenzo11

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 08:07:34 AM »
There's a big difference between travel and commuting. I agree that travel should be paid for. Just like reimbursement for miles, I get paid for the time beyond my normal commute time if I am going to a project site or client site. Example, my commute is 30 minutes and the project site is 90 minutes from my house. I get paid for 60 minutes of the drive. I haven't had to do any air travel so I'm not sure how that works, but I know most of the employees that are flying are working on the plane and working when they get to their hotel. So they've already blurred the line between work and personal time.

For commuting, it's a much different story. Take a job that doesn't have the ability to work from home, like a factory worker. The company pays the worker to be at work and it's up to the worker to decide where to live and therefore how much time it takes to get to work. But I understand this isn't that simple and in HCOL areas this can be difficult to live close to some companies. With the increase in remote work, this has changed the equation a bit. I love working from home and find that I can do my job effectively without in person interaction, but I don't know if I fully buy that my commute is now zero and the company should pay my commute if they want me to come in for a day. I'll have to think about that more. Would love to get paid for that, but maybe it just comes down to more of what the expectations are. It also gets tough when there are different roles in a company, some of which don't have the ability to be remote all the time. Or even at my company where two people with the exact same job title can be assigned to different projects, one of which can work fully remote and one which requires onsite work (not because of project manager preferences but because of contract requirements that list a person on site).

As for your situation where you don't want to travel, it seems like you've already made the case to the project manager that it's not worth the travel for you. But maybe try to put it into their terms of budget and schedule. Show that your travel is going to cost the project X more money and traveling is going to knock out a whole day that you could have spent progressing the project. Add it all up for the total project duration so show the total impact. You could also just state that you aren't comfortable flying/traveling because of the pandemic. This may result in an HR or even job battle so make sure you check on what your job description would actually require before going down this road. Also if you have a reporting manager, they should probably be the first one to discuss this with. Good luck!

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 08:13:34 AM »
Very welcoming to a relatively new poster…sheesh, come on.

Well to be fair, they came out of the gates guns blazing with quite opinionated and imo hyperbolic statements.

I wonder why more people don't view the non-paid time to travel to / from work, business travel, as time theft from their day when they could be either more productive, or getting personal things done. 

There was a book written about this concept decades ago. Your Money Or Your Life was written 30 years ago and it's one of the main premises of this book.

Regardless, the word "theft" is completely silly here. Almost everyone on this forum has the means to move closer to work if they want -- in fact, one of MMM's earliest mantras was to live close to work to avoid commuting. So it's not at all theft, it's a conscious choice many/most of us are actively making as part of the work arrangement.


joe189man

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 908
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 09:30:24 AM »
Very welcoming to a relatively new poster…sheesh, come on.

Well to be fair, they came out of the gates guns blazing with quite opinionated and imo hyperbolic statements.


With a topic that should be moved to off topic - admins?

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22320
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 09:54:41 AM »
Very welcoming to a relatively new poster…sheesh, come on.

Well to be fair, they came out of the gates guns blazing with quite opinionated and imo hyperbolic statements.


With a topic that should be moved to off topic - admins?
Pretty sure new members can't post in Off Topic until they have 100 posts.

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6657
Re: Business travel, commuting to office is time theft from employees
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2022, 01:22:18 PM »
It seems like there are 2 subjects that OP has combined into one conversation.  It seems they have environmental concerns about unnecessary commutes, with "unnecessary" being both longer than needed and also just not needed at all when WFH is a viable option at least some of the time. 

Then there is just an anger and bitterness toward employers, blaming them for what really amounts to employee choice.  And his solutions to this problem would likely run counter to his supposed concerns about the environment.  If you pay people based on the length of their commute, you disincentivize people moving closer to work.  If their commute not only costs them nothing, but actually earns them money, many people are going to live farther from the office, not closer. 

I'm not sure if point 1 is just a screen for the actual issue, which is point 2, or if the OP has both issues and in conflating them and doesn't see that his proposal to punish employers actually hurts the environment. 

~~~

I do recall being a young hourly employee in her first big-girl job, and being sent from CA to TX for a conference.  I was pretty disappointed to learn that I would not be paid for any of the travel time and that basically though I was away from home for several days straight, I essentially only got paid for the 8 hours/day I was attending work functions.  I don't recall the exact details for how the pay worked, but I think that's correct.  At any rate, I definitely felt I was putting in significant time that was uncompensated, and I agree that's not fair for an hourly employee. 

I also think the government could very easily incentivized WFH.  A tax break based on the % of worker time not performed at a central work location could easily be accomplished.   Even a 9/80 or 4/10 saves on driving.  Of course, some businesses--service industries, for example--wouldn't be able to take advantage of them as they are unlikely to have many or even any roles that would work for WFH. 

Assuming OP is legit, I suggest they think about what they are really trying to accomplish and why they seem to have misdirected anger at employers based on employee choices.  If OP hates their commute, they should move closer to work.  That may mean sacrificing some things, but either it is important to them, or it isn't.  And if some case where it somehow truly isn't an option, then it's time to find a new job--and perhaps one that does not include any travel, as well.