Author Topic: bluecollarFIRE  (Read 5457 times)

triple7stash

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bluecollarFIRE
« on: February 17, 2021, 12:10:48 AM »
Anyone out there transitioned into some sort of physical labor or hands on work while at the tail end of the accumulation phase before fire? A similar take on lean/baristaFIRE, but instead getting into maybe a trade?

My family was into various aspects of construction, so my father naturally pushed me into getting an education and a white collar job. He then passed away at an early age and I wish I could have picked up more skills, as I actually love working with my hands now (seems to beat sitting on zoom all day - maybe the grass is greener syndrome).  I imagine alot of the physical toll would be minimized if you weren’t totally reliant on your job as you coasted towards fire.

Thoughts?

Mike in NH

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2021, 02:10:40 AM »
Not exactly what you are looking for but I retired from my career in corporate insurance to be a mountain guide. Nice change of pace after spending the better part of two decades sitting on my ass indoors playing with spreadsheets all day.

While I was working in the corporate world, I always enjoyed getting the opportunity to do some physical labor. Helping my FIL chop his firewood or my pops dig out after a big snowstorm, stuff like that. World of difference between having the option to do that stuff once in a while and doing it every day of your life to earn a living.

   

wageslave23

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2021, 12:21:10 PM »
I also day dream about going into the trades.  Then I have to replace a kitchen faucet in my rental property and I realize that I'd kill myself if I had to do that all day everyday for a living.   So maybe do some side work and see if you still like it.

WSUCoug1994

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 04:28:59 PM »
I grew up working on a farm and spent my high school and college days building houses for a local contractor.  I have since spent the last 25+ years in a white collar desk job where I have a developed a bit of an imposter syndrome.  I have been lucky enough to be successful in the white-collar world but my true calling is to work outside with my hands.  I purchased a house with some land on it on purpose - I get to do a lot of hard work, putting up buildings, tending to the property that has enabled me to spend my "free" time working on the things I love and "work" time making good money.  If given the option I wouldn't want to do either one full time hence the reason I am retiring next year.  A lot of my retirement is going to be doing the things I love, working/building cars/buildings/gardens/etc outside and away from this damn keyboard.

If my extremely conservative financial plan ran into an issue - I would head towards the blue collar world as my second career - no question.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 04:32:54 PM by WSUCoug1994 »

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 04:42:10 PM »
Speaking as someone who worked with my hands until the work crippled me, there's a HUGE difference between enjoying DIY and working at the pace required to do it professionally.

It also depends on how old you're going to be at the end of FIRE. If you're in your 30s, then go nuts, but if the tail end of your working years is your 50s, you might not want to be putting your body through the constant, break-neck pace repetitive strain, especially since you won't be very experienced.

I get the rationale that if you don't need the money, you think you can work at a more leisurely pace, but if you're working for someone else, that's not going to fly, and if you're working for a client, they don't want you taking longer than industry standard either.

That's not to say it can't be done, just don't assume that it's as simple as choosing to do it at your own pace and still expecting to command a professional fee for it. It could be a little more complex than that. Maybe it just takes some effective planning though, but I would talk to people in the particular trade you're interested in and see if taking it easy would be feasible.

I know in my industry, it's impossible, but mine is a medical field, and I have to work with a team, so slowing down isn't an option for me.

draco44

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM »
It matters what you enjoy, what your body will be capable of, and whether this would be a full-time gig or more of a top-up the stash hobby business.

Also, there's manual labor and then there's manual labor. I knew a guy who started a custom chocolate business in retirement and seemed happy with his choice. It was hands-on and involved lots of standing and moving bowls and boxes around, but it wasn't like he was chopping wood or jack-hammering into concrete all day long. He also, from my limited knowledge of the finances of this operation, didn't expect the money he made to fully support himself, and could have quit at any time.  Things tend to feel more fun if you know you aren't trapped by your job.

I also knew of an older car mechanic who offered extremely low-cost repairs to people in the community as a word-of-mouth solo operation. The catch was that he'd get to it when he got to it. This was clearly explained upfront, and if you had a spare ride and agreed to wait for his timeline, the quality of work was excellent. He just liked working on cars.

If you want to have or work for a higher-earning, more formal operation, you'd be held to different standards. Especially if you are working for someone else rather than in business on your own.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 05:08:24 PM by draco44 »

Evgenia

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 05:45:07 PM »
Two years before FIRE, I went to school for and began an agricultural skilled trade as a side gig, which I still do (eight years later, now). It could absolutely be a full-time thing for six or more months per year, but I mostly do it part-time. I am currently learning another esoteric, book-related trade. All a long way of saying: I am totally biased but HIGHLY recommend it. :-)

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 05:46:33 PM »
Two years before FIRE, I went to school for and began an agricultural skilled trade as a side gig, which I still do (eight years later, now). It could absolutely be a full-time thing for six or more months per year, but I mostly do it part-time. I am currently learning another esoteric, book-related trade. All a long way of saying: I am totally biased but HIGHLY recommend it. :-)

Yeah, it REALLY depends on the trade.

"Working with your hands" really can't be generalized. Different industries are wildly different.

dorf

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 07:38:02 PM »
After retiring young, I became bored and saw a "help wanted" sign at a machine shop near me.  I always wanted to learn machining and had previously bought a Bridgeport milling machine that I used as a glorified drill press.  I applied for the job and they hesitated in hiring me.  I offered to work for a week free so that I could see if I liked it and they could figure out if I was worth hiring.

I ended up working there for almost a year.  minimum wage and beginners work that included cleaning the shop each week.  I learned a ton and got paid for the learning the work.  I also learned that I like having more freedom in my retirement to include having more than two weeks of vacation.

If you are financially independent, I highly recommend it.  A buddy of mine termed it as "some Hemingway shit".

What does it hurt to give it a shot?


REatc

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 08:26:22 PM »
I’m similar to you in age and my dad has a landscaping business. Every summer(I grew up in Texas) from age 10 to 18 before I left for college he made me work outside with him. It taught me many valuable experiences, the most valuable I think was that I needed to get an education. It drove me so I wouldn’t have to work in the damn heat, and beat myself down physically everyday to make a buck. I would come home everyday and complain to my mom that I’m never working a job outside again. She just laughed and smiled. She knew what was happening.

Now that I am older and on my path to FI, I’m grateful for the lessons I’ve learned, but there is zero chance I would trade my day job for the physical labor job of landscaping even if the pay was the same. I do enjoy how you can transform something ugly into something beautiful, and make people more prideful in their homes, but it is not the fulltime job I would want. Every time I visit my parents I still go out with my dad for a day to help out of a few jobs, I enjoy it now as an escape from my normal life and as a way to hangout with him. The feeling now when I don’t do it for money is completely different and kind of relaxing.

My best friend from growing up works in landscaping too. He complains to me all the time that he has no money and how he always has expenses and can never get ahead. He chose not to go to college and started working right out of high school. I make about 3x-4x what he does now.

My advice would be stay at your day job now until you are FI. If you make significantly more in your day job than you would doing construction work, I would suggest staying until FatFI. At that point it’s your choice. I would say go for it. It’s a 180 degree difference doing a physical labor job as required work for money vs a hobby job to keep busy/learn a new skill. Once I reach FatFI, I think I might go back into part time landscaping/physical work.

Steeze

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 08:47:01 PM »
I would like to buy, renovate, and rent out a couple houses after FI. Buy something cheap and rundown just to learn how to do everything - even if it took me forever to finish. Keep the freedom of not working for other people, but still get some trade skills. Maybe hire a friend here and there to do side work and get me set up and moving in the right direction.

Fishindude

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2021, 07:28:57 AM »
I worked in construction my entire career, starting from the bottom up basic laborer, skilled trades, foreman, project superintendent and eventually worked my way into management and ownership holding multiple different roles and retiring as majority owner and company president.   To me, the best thing about the industry is the actual hands on, outdoor, physical work associated with building projects, so I kind of decided that I'm going to make the right decisions in peak earning years so that I can quit and get back to doing the things I like to do.

During our earning and accumulation years I purchased farms, built a big shop, bought equipment, tools, etc. so that now that I am retired I can get out and do various hands on projects around the farms.   There is always something to do, and it usually involves working outdoors or in the shop, hands on, at my own pace.   I get to play around on tractors, backhoes and other big equipment, do welding, carpentry, cut wood, equipment maintenance, etc., etc.    And the best part is, if it's crummy and raining or too hot/cold out I can skip it and do whatever else pleases me.

I like to vacation, do a lot of hunting and fishing trips, etc. but could never be a full time retired goof off.   The way I'm wired, there needs to be some work to do all the time.

Greystache

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2021, 07:47:21 AM »
Just make sure you have good medical coverage. You will probably need it.  My father and two oldest brothers worked as painting contractors. All of them suffered various knee, back and other assorted injuries. All of them were in pretty bad shape by the time they got into their sixties. My son decided that college was not for him and entered a trade. He is in his early thirties and has recently suffered his first back injury on the job. If you choose to get into a physically demanding job, be sure to take care of yourself and good luck.

trollwithamustache

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2021, 10:27:03 AM »
can you do HVAC work?  its usually relatively clean and light duty work. Installs are a lot of work, but most residential HVAC companies need a swing capacity of technicians early in seasons for inspectiosn/light serving/filter changes, AC before summer and heaters before winter.

it is no where near as physically demeaning as becoming say, and iron worker or pipeline welder.

use2betrix

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 08:30:50 PM »
I started as an industrial pipe welder for a few years before moving into management where I am now.

I have a welding machine in my garage and do some small projects. After FIRE, I’d like to turn it into more of a hobby/side hustle. I really enjoy it.

Unfortunately, the higher paying welding jobs are usually long hours and harder, more dangerous work.

I wouldn’t mind being in a fab shop welding pipe spools a few months of the year.

triple7stash

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 10:10:21 PM »
Two years before FIRE, I went to school for and began an agricultural skilled trade as a side gig, which I still do (eight years later, now). It could absolutely be a full-time thing for six or more months per year, but I mostly do it part-time. I am currently learning another esoteric, book-related trade. All a long way of saying: I am totally biased but HIGHLY recommend it. :-)

Definitely would be interested to hear more about this! Feel free to post or DM me.

I feel at home with an earlier response when some stated they felt “imposter” syndrome. My father was a plumber and I used to go to work with him as a child and was forced to do the grunt work. The lesson was always to go to school, so that I wouldn’t have to be in manual labor like the rest of the family. However, I long to not be staring at a computer and some part of me thinks it’s in my family culture and upbringing.

I wouldn’t intend on totally shifting careers and going full speed into manual labor. I’m fast approaching 50% of my FI # and was just curious on general ideas if others had shifted gears and their thoughts. It wouldn’t have to be a true “blue collar” job, but I would be open to that. Mainly something that just didn’t involve staring at a screen all day.

Thought this might spark some interesting discussions and everyone would have varied thought and experiences to bring :)

Mike in NH

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2021, 07:36:18 AM »
I’m similar to you in age and my dad has a landscaping business. Every summer(I grew up in Texas) from age 10 to 18 before I left for college he made me work outside with him. It taught me many valuable experiences, the most valuable I think was that I needed to get an education. It drove me so I wouldn’t have to work in the damn heat, and beat myself down physically everyday to make a buck. I would come home everyday and complain to my mom that I’m never working a job outside again. She just laughed and smiled. She knew what was happening.

Now that I am older and on my path to FI, I’m grateful for the lessons I’ve learned, but there is zero chance I would trade my day job for the physical labor job of landscaping even if the pay was the same. I do enjoy how you can transform something ugly into something beautiful, and make people more prideful in their homes, but it is not the fulltime job I would want. Every time I visit my parents I still go out with my dad for a day to help out of a few jobs, I enjoy it now as an escape from my normal life and as a way to hangout with him. The feeling now when I don’t do it for money is completely different and kind of relaxing.

My best friend from growing up works in landscaping too. He complains to me all the time that he has no money and how he always has expenses and can never get ahead. He chose not to go to college and started working right out of high school. I make about 3x-4x what he does now.

My advice would be stay at your day job now until you are FI. If you make significantly more in your day job than you would doing construction work, I would suggest staying until FatFI. At that point it’s your choice. I would say go for it. It’s a 180 degree difference doing a physical labor job as required work for money vs a hobby job to keep busy/learn a new skill. Once I reach FatFI, I think I might go back into part time landscaping/physical work.

@REatc I can very much relate to this. Growing up, my father managed a marina and I worked there during college mostly in the summertime and school breaks. We worked hard, only for us it was the best summer job I could think of. After I graduated, I hadn't found a job yet so I went back to work for one more summer. At the end of the summer, still hadn't found a job so the owner asked if I'd stay on until Thanksgiving. Driving boats, diving off the gas dock and getting a tan quickly changed into bottom washing with questionable chemicals, pumping out poo systems, etc etc. One day I was choking on some fumes washing a boat bottom and one of the mechanics that very much respected my dad came over and asked me if I was having fun, only his tone had a sharp edge he had never used with me before. I laughed and told him not particularly. He told me it wasn't effing funny. That I didn't belong here, doing this, and that my father didn't bust his ass to help me pay for school so I could hang around a be another lumpa in the boatyard. He still wasn't smiling when he walked off, he was legitimately pissed at me. It may have come from an unexpected person, but it was exactly the thing I needed to hear at exactly the right moment. A little over a month later I was starting my career at a fortune 500 company. 

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2021, 08:57:55 AM »
Two years before FIRE, I went to school for and began an agricultural skilled trade as a side gig, which I still do (eight years later, now). It could absolutely be a full-time thing for six or more months per year, but I mostly do it part-time. I am currently learning another esoteric, book-related trade. All a long way of saying: I am totally biased but HIGHLY recommend it. :-)

Definitely would be interested to hear more about this! Feel free to post or DM me.

I feel at home with an earlier response when some stated they felt “imposter” syndrome. My father was a plumber and I used to go to work with him as a child and was forced to do the grunt work. The lesson was always to go to school, so that I wouldn’t have to be in manual labor like the rest of the family. However, I long to not be staring at a computer and some part of me thinks it’s in my family culture and upbringing.

I wouldn’t intend on totally shifting careers and going full speed into manual labor. I’m fast approaching 50% of my FI # and was just curious on general ideas if others had shifted gears and their thoughts. It wouldn’t have to be a true “blue collar” job, but I would be open to that. Mainly something that just didn’t involve staring at a screen all day.

Thought this might spark some interesting discussions and everyone would have varied thought and experiences to bring :)

I've worked in multiple different sectors doing multiple different types of jobs and literally never sat looking at a screen all day.

There's an entire world of work out there that isn't cubicle work. It's not like there's just cubicles and manual labour jobs and that's it.

Thanks to my injuries, I actually can't do a desk job, and I've never felt like my options were limited.

If the goal is just to not sit at a computer, then you need to seriously expand your mind in terms of what kind of work it out there.

Steeze

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2021, 06:23:25 PM »
Have you looked into jobs that require you to have a degree and work at a skilled blue collar or outdoor job? There are a lot of careers that are outside the traditional desk/office job that require some (often a lot) more physical labor.

After I got out of the military (Coast Guard - where I was a Machinery Technician/ships engineer/mechanic - plus all the regular CG stuff like law enforcement, fire fighting, SAR, etc) I worked in the Environmental Compliance field on the enforcement side and it was definitely a hands on outdoor kind of job in all kinds of weather and terrain and hours. It also required a science degree and a background in law enforcement AND experience in various mechanical-type of skills. So look into those kinds of fields and see if any of your current skills are transferable. Even part time side-gigs can be found that you might enjoy more than a backbreaking 9 to 5 labor kind of job.

I think horticulture or working in a plant nursery would be fun. Forest ranger? Water Quality tester on lakes, rivers, oceans? Lots of non-labor but outdoor type of work out there.

I can vouch for water quality testing being a great job! I worked as an intern for the Colorado Dept. of Health in the Water Quality Control Division's Environmental Data Unit. We would spend about 1/3 of our time driving all over the state towing a boat and testing various water bodies. Some days we would be out on a lake all day, other days we would be hiking into remote locations to test rivers and mine tailings. If you like traveling, staying in hotels,  driving back roads, back packing, hanging out on lakes, and climbing mountains it is a great job. The other 2/3 of our time was split between a laboratory where we analysed water and fish samples and in the office where we would write reports about the data.

If the pay was more reasonable it would have been a home run, but those guys were only making 50k-80k a year even at the Director level. Lifestyle wise it was awesome though.

honeybbq

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 12:34:45 PM »
Not exactly what you are looking for but I retired from my career in corporate insurance to be a mountain guide. Nice change of pace after spending the better part of two decades sitting on my ass indoors playing with spreadsheets all day.


   

Awesome. I'd love to volunteer with SAR when I retire. How is being a guide? Do you lead climbs or what exactly does that entail?

jfer_rose

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2021, 12:46:27 PM »
I thought I was doing this to some extent. I had achieved lean FIRE when I quit my job to go to a one-year trade school program to learn woodworking (I also considered a different program in construction and remodeling). I had planned to get a blue collar job to earn income to bridge the gap between lean and full FIRE. As it turns out, market growth bridged that gap for me and so that is no longer required.

One thing that helped me which maybe you could replicate... I found a program through the local university extension that allowed me to "test drive" various trades before I quit my job. The program I did was meant to increase the number of women in trades, but I later learned that the local branch of the urban league regularly runs these sorts of programs that are open to anyone. The program was designed for people who already had jobs (everything happened on evenings and weekends). It was a great way to dip my toes in the water and helped squash fears that I would give up my income for something I didn't actually like. And it was also a great way to narrow in on which specific trades interested me most.

Editing to add: if you wanted to look for these sorts of programs in your areas, search terms could include skilled trade workforce development programs. One huge takeaway is that many trades are having a huge problem finding enough staff through much of the US.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 12:56:18 PM by jfer_rose »

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2021, 07:42:44 AM »
can you do HVAC work?  its usually relatively clean and light duty work. Installs are a lot of work, but most residential HVAC companies need a swing capacity of technicians early in seasons for inspectiosn/light serving/filter changes, AC before summer and heaters before winter.

it is no where near as physically demeaning as becoming say, and iron worker or pipeline welder.

Not OP but funny you mention this. I'm in the process of starting an HVAC company right now with a partner. My background is electrical troubleshooting and his is hvac home repair.

I'll let you know how it is.( I'm almost 30) I will say attics are rough in summer, but a good bit of troubleshooting takes place outside the attic.

That shit never breaks on a nice comfortable day. It's always the cold / hot time lol.


sonofsven

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2021, 08:08:29 AM »
Lawn care could be an option. Fairly lucrative without a huge investment in tools, weather dependent and seasonal (which is good, who wants to work outside in the winter!)

jinga nation

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2021, 08:20:13 AM »
my wife wants to quit her desk job staring at Excel and numbers. We're FI, she wants to do something creative. Currently she wants to learn bread making. she's thinking of taking a PT job in a Publix bakery and work O-dark-thirty to 9/10 am. A friend's mum has been working a decade at Publix store bakery and enjoys the hours and work. (The lady is pretty much FIREd with her husband, who works the same hours stocking up shelves and doing light labor just to stay busy. Otherwise he reads books and magazines and news all day.)

friedmmj

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2021, 09:35:31 AM »

@REatc I can very much relate to this. Growing up, my father managed a marina and I worked there during college mostly in the summertime and school breaks. We worked hard, only for us it was the best summer job I could think of. After I graduated, I hadn't found a job yet so I went back to work for one more summer. At the end of the summer, still hadn't found a job so the owner asked if I'd stay on until Thanksgiving. Driving boats, diving off the gas dock and getting a tan quickly changed into bottom washing with questionable chemicals, pumping out poo systems, etc etc. One day I was choking on some fumes washing a boat bottom and one of the mechanics that very much respected my dad came over and asked me if I was having fun, only his tone had a sharp edge he had never used with me before. I laughed and told him not particularly. He told me it wasn't effing funny. That I didn't belong here, doing this, and that my father didn't bust his ass to help me pay for school so I could hang around a be another lumpa in the boatyard. He still wasn't smiling when he walked off, he was legitimately pissed at me. It may have come from an unexpected person, but it was exactly the thing I needed to hear at exactly the right moment. A little over a month later I was starting my career at a fortune 500 company.

Great story!  Reminds me of a scene from Good Will Hunting when Ben Affleck was telling Matt Damon to get out of construction and use his brain.

waltworks

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2021, 09:53:30 AM »
I think it's important to distinguish between the actual trades (driving from house to house clearing clogged drains and sweating patches on leaky pipes all day, welding the same piece of girder to the same other piece of girder over and over and over, lugging around pallets with a forklift, etc) from what I'll call artisan trades (ie luthier, fancy carpentry/furniture making, etc).

If you want to work with your hands, you've always enjoying little DIY projects, and you like to watch This Old House, you are ready to... have a nice hobby. If you turn out to be super good at it, you might make a few bucks. But probably not.

If you actually need to make money, the trades is a great way to do it, but it's not very stimulating. Working with your hands on repetitive tasks in inclement weather/small enclosed spaces/around mouth breathing louts (or alone) gets old fast for most people. Maybe not for you, but who knows.

I teach people to build custom bicycle frames (artisan stuff) and I try to make it really clear that there's little to no prospect of getting rich or even making meaningful money doing it unless you're an ace at running a business, can do it super lean/out of your house, and get lucky.

My point is, go into any endeavor like this with low expectations. If you're pleasantly surprised, great!

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 11:09:16 AM »
There's probably enough construction work needing to be done on my own home to keep me as busy as I want to be with that.  I enjoy it, but it doses.

When I moved to half-time at my desk job I became the crossing guard at the local grade school, 45 mins in the morning and 45 mins in the afternoon.  I absolutely love it....but that is also the perfect amount of time a day spent on that job.  When I pull the plug I'm sure I'll keep the crossing job until the kids are all out of the house and it might start getting in the way of traveling.

There's a ton of things I think I'd love to do for maybe an hour a two a day that would be horrible for 40/week, and may sometimes be hard to know which those are until I tried.

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2021, 12:04:47 PM »
my wife wants to quit her desk job staring at Excel and numbers. We're FI, she wants to do something creative. Currently she wants to learn bread making. she's thinking of taking a PT job in a Publix bakery and work O-dark-thirty to 9/10 am. A friend's mum has been working a decade at Publix store bakery and enjoys the hours and work. (The lady is pretty much FIREd with her husband, who works the same hours stocking up shelves and doing light labor just to stay busy. Otherwise he reads books and magazines and news all day.)

If she wants to learn breadbaking, have her go approach an actual bakery that makes things from scratch. Guessing Publix does the par bake...basically comes in frozen, you proof it, then bake it. That's far different than learning fermentation practices, different measuring, how different flours react and what the protein levels mean, etc. Then ask why she thinks she wants to learn bread baking? Is it because she loves baking for friends and family, or she enjoys the science of it, or she like people's reactions when enjoying the bread? If she goes to a bakery, then people don't eat the bread in front of her, and it's transactional...but if she goes to a bakery, she will work with a lot of very talented/dedicated people and learn a ton of new skills...she will also learn quickly how much she will hate laminating dough, and how much butter a bakery goes through:)

jinga nation

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2021, 03:42:38 PM »
my wife wants to quit her desk job staring at Excel and numbers. We're FI, she wants to do something creative. Currently she wants to learn bread making. she's thinking of taking a PT job in a Publix bakery and work O-dark-thirty to 9/10 am. A friend's mum has been working a decade at Publix store bakery and enjoys the hours and work. (The lady is pretty much FIREd with her husband, who works the same hours stocking up shelves and doing light labor just to stay busy. Otherwise he reads books and magazines and news all day.)

If she wants to learn breadbaking, have her go approach an actual bakery that makes things from scratch. Guessing Publix does the par bake...basically comes in frozen, you proof it, then bake it. That's far different than learning fermentation practices, different measuring, how different flours react and what the protein levels mean, etc. Then ask why she thinks she wants to learn bread baking? Is it because she loves baking for friends and family, or she enjoys the science of it, or she like people's reactions when enjoying the bread? If she goes to a bakery, then people don't eat the bread in front of her, and it's transactional...but if she goes to a bakery, she will work with a lot of very talented/dedicated people and learn a ton of new skills...she will also learn quickly how much she will hate laminating dough, and how much butter a bakery goes through:)

Thanks! that's a very interesting insight i'll relay to her.

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Then ask why she thinks she wants to learn bread baking? Is it because she loves baking for friends and family, or she enjoys the science of it, or she like people's reactions when enjoying the bread?
^Hit the nail on the head. All of the above.

We don't have any artisanal bakeries in our area (unless anyone out of their mind considers Panera artisan - that shit is bland AF). I've been making bread weekly using our Hamilton Beach fiddy dolla machine. I'm happy what it cranks out. Wife wants to go next step. I'm all for it (i love homemade bread).

FindingFI

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2021, 06:23:32 AM »
I'm still quite a few years away myself, but I would absolutely transition at the end of my career into some kind of active job. Anything to get out from behind a computer and desk for 40 hours a week.  Maybe something like a fitness instructor, florist, or doing whatever needs to get done at an animal shelter. Not hard manual labor, but something where I'm up and doing things instead of staring at a screen sitting on my ass. By that point, the pay isn't super important and if I don't like it, I can walk away and try something different.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2021, 07:47:40 AM »
It's funny - working at a large factory I was on both sides.

I went from trades / manual work to office / management work.

Each group thinks the other group has the cake job.

I personally HATE office work.  I don't think humans are evolved to connect to the entire world through a little portal they control with a mouse.  And certainly sitting at a desk all day has been proven to be not ideal.


trollwithamustache

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2021, 09:50:30 AM »
can you do HVAC work?  its usually relatively clean and light duty work. Installs are a lot of work, but most residential HVAC companies need a swing capacity of technicians early in seasons for inspectiosn/light serving/filter changes, AC before summer and heaters before winter.

it is no where near as physically demeaning as becoming say, and iron worker or pipeline welder.

Not OP but funny you mention this. I'm in the process of starting an HVAC company right now with a partner. My background is electrical troubleshooting and his is hvac home repair.

I'll let you know how it is.( I'm almost 30) I will say attics are rough in summer, but a good bit of troubleshooting takes place outside the attic.

That shit never breaks on a nice comfortable day. It's always the cold / hot time lol.

well, I will admit no direct experience. I used to work with two industrial electricians who had HVAC as their back up plan. They had very good industrial jobs, but if the plant ever closed (always the threat right?), they thought HVAC work paid the best on its ratio to minimal dirty/hard work.

One of them was kind of an ass, so I don't know how that would play with retail customers thoguh.

GoCubsGo

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2021, 03:00:56 PM »
When I was your age I'd look out the window of my corporate office envious of the landscapers and longing to "do something".  I somewhat acted on it by quitting my corporate job in my late 30's to focus on flipping houses, real estate, landlording, etc.  It really scratched an itch but I would NEVER have done it in my 20's unless difference in pay was minimal (which it was not).  I'd think hard about it as it could impact your FIRE date significantly depending on the difference b/w your particular white and blue collar pay spread.  It probably set me back 3-4 years or so at most.  I invested a sizeable portion of my lucrative corporate earnings which allowed the shift.

Also, as I became more skilled I had multiple people ask me to do work for them.  The minute it felt like "work" I all of the sudden didn't like it.  Definitely research and think hard on it.  The earning potential between now and your mid 40's are probably pretty strong and shouldn't be wasted.

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2021, 03:27:02 PM »
When I was your age I'd look out the window of my corporate office envious of the landscapers and longing to "do something".  I somewhat acted on it by quitting my corporate job in my late 30's to focus on flipping houses, real estate, landlording, etc.  It really scratched an itch but I would NEVER have done it in my 20's unless difference in pay was minimal (which it was not).  I'd think hard about it as it could impact your FIRE date significantly depending on the difference b/w your particular white and blue collar pay spread.  It probably set me back 3-4 years or so at most.  I invested a sizeable portion of my lucrative corporate earnings which allowed the shift.

Also, as I became more skilled I had multiple people ask me to do work for them.  The minute it felt like "work" I all of the sudden didn't like it.  Definitely research and think hard on it.  The earning potential between now and your mid 40's are probably pretty strong and shouldn't be wasted.

I had a similar experience, but the other direction. After years of labouring with my hands, I started feeling like a very well trained monkey. By a certain point, the thought of getting paid for what I produce with my brain instead of what I produce with my hands sounded sooooo appealing.

GoCubsGo

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2021, 09:01:51 AM »

I had a similar experience, but the other direction. After years of labouring with my hands, I started feeling like a very well trained monkey. By a certain point, the thought of getting paid for what I produce with my brain instead of what I produce with my hands sounded sooooo appealing.

Yeah, I can definitely understand that.  I actually put in a few resumes last year because I wanted more of a mental challenge and have flirted with taking a more corporate type job (pandemic makes one reflect quite a bit).  That said, I (and I'd imagine you Malcat) were able to make pivots based on a strong financial footing.  I guess that's my main point to the OP, definitely think it through if it has outsized financial implications long term.

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2021, 09:03:43 AM »

I had a similar experience, but the other direction. After years of labouring with my hands, I started feeling like a very well trained monkey. By a certain point, the thought of getting paid for what I produce with my brain instead of what I produce with my hands sounded sooooo appealing.

Yeah, I can definitely understand that.  I actually put in a few resumes last year because I wanted more of a mental challenge and have flirted with taking a more corporate type job (pandemic makes one reflect quite a bit).  That said, I (and I'd imagine you Malcat) were able to make pivots based on a strong financial footing.  I guess that's my main point to the OP, definitely think it through if it has outsized financial implications long term.

No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

GoCubsGo

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2021, 09:22:46 AM »


No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

Dangggg.  The difference in pay was close though at least?

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2021, 09:30:41 AM »

No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

Dangggg.  The difference in pay was close though at least?

Let's not get into my complicated story. It isn't necessary for supporting the point I was making that the grass can always look greener. A lot of desk-jockeys romanticize working with your hands, and a lot of us hand-labourers end up longing for more brain-based work.



« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 09:36:26 AM by Malcat »

GoCubsGo

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2021, 10:06:01 AM »

No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

Dangggg.  The difference in pay was close though at least?

Let's not get into my complicated story. It isn't necessary for supporting the point I was making that the grass can always look greener. A lot of desk-jockeys romanticize working with your hands, and a lot of us hand-labourers end up longing for more brain-based work.

And my point is if there is little financial difference between the "corporate" job and the "trades" job,  I don't have a problem with going to the greener grass.  Ditto if the decision is well thought out on a long term basis. In my situation there was a substantial difference so I put it off a few years until I felt comfortable financially.

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2021, 10:30:37 AM »

No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

Dangggg.  The difference in pay was close though at least?

Let's not get into my complicated story. It isn't necessary for supporting the point I was making that the grass can always look greener. A lot of desk-jockeys romanticize working with your hands, and a lot of us hand-labourers end up longing for more brain-based work.

And my point is if there is little financial difference between the "corporate" job and the "trades" job,  I don't have a problem with going to the greener grass.  Ditto if the decision is well thought out on a long term basis. In my situation there was a substantial difference so I put it off a few years until I felt comfortable financially.

Well yeah, all serious career decisions should be well thought out.

GoCubsGo

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2021, 12:09:21 PM »



Well yeah, all serious career decisions should be well thought out.

And unfortunately all career decisions made in one's 20's are not thought out in terms of how it will affect one in there 50's.  OP asked for thoughts.  Those are my thoughts. Obvious to some, but maybe not all.

Watchmaker

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2021, 03:24:02 PM »
One thing I've considered is doing seasonal work at a cheese factory. There are several huge ones nearby, and I have multiple friends who own small cheese factories who always need to hire seasonal help.

It's hard, physical work so I doubt I'd do it for more than a few seasons, but I think the experience would be interesting.

Metalcat

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2021, 03:44:25 PM »

Well yeah, all serious career decisions should be well thought out.

And unfortunately all career decisions made in one's 20's are not thought out in terms of how it will affect one in there 50's.  OP asked for thoughts.  Those are my thoughts. Obvious to some, but maybe not all.

Fair enough. Although OP specifically said they would consider this move at the end of their accumulation phase.

The only point I've been making is that it's easy to romanticize work that's very different from your own and sharing my experience with having done both.

I got into a work-with-your-hands career because I had been in university for years and was thrilled by the idea of having a hands-on professional skill set. It sounded so refreshing after so much studying and pure brain work.

Then I did it for 5 years and started swinging back away from wanting to primarily work with my hands, and envying people who made their living on their thoughts.

Personally, in my 20s I made every single career decision with the long term in mind. My planning was meticulous and entirely strategic. What I didn't account for was getting restless and wanting to change course. And what I really didn't account for was getting sick, which is what makes my story complicated.

It's very difficult to know what you will want in the future and what you will be able to do in the future.

The only point I've been trying to make is to not over romanticize any one type of work, and always be open to the possibility that a plan might not work out. Otherwise, have at it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 04:15:34 PM by Malcat »

jinga nation

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2021, 04:12:07 PM »

No, I was in a few hundred thousand dollars of student debt at the time.

Dangggg.  The difference in pay was close though at least?

Let's not get into my complicated story. It isn't necessary for supporting the point I was making that the grass can always look greener. A lot of desk-jockeys romanticize working with your hands, and a lot of us hand-labourers end up longing for more brain-based work.

Human nature to crave what we don't have, while forgetting what we already have.
Rational decision making is very hard, in general.
My wife is going through this, wanting to quit her well-paid desk jockey gig for a shift in the bakery/labor mines.

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2021, 05:43:18 PM »
Two years before FIRE, I went to school for and began an agricultural skilled trade as a side gig, which I still do (eight years later, now). It could absolutely be a full-time thing for six or more months per year, but I mostly do it part-time. I am currently learning another esoteric, book-related trade. All a long way of saying: I am totally biased but HIGHLY recommend it. :-)

I'd love to know what this is!

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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2021, 08:35:06 AM »
Love this topic and philosophical discussion of leaving an office gig for more manual type labor.

My two cents:  Absolutely do not quit well-paying office type job to transition to an entry level trades/manual labor type job. 

As others have said, get to FIRE first, then you have a safety net to try new things.  In the meantime, try to help out people you know on weekends, vacations, etc. with trades type work to get a feel and see what you might like.

I helped a friend build a deck last week.  It sucked.  Digging 4' deep, 12" wide holes with post diggers in very rocky soil in 80 degree weather was not bueno.  The next day we hand mixed cement in the 4' deep sonotubes, again in 80 degree weather.  It sucked.  Rained the next two days so I helped him with a bathroom remodel.  Putting grout in the shower wall tiles was definitely less strenuous than the hole digging, but still kind of tedious.  Now imagine doing this type of stuff for 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, etc.  It would get old quick (for me). 

Even "more" skilled trades like electricians, plumbers, HVAC are doing a LOT of physical, repetitive work.  Bending conduit, mounting backboxes to concrete or metal studs, pushing heavy/thick wire through conduits, etc. for 8 hours a day is HARD, PHYSICAL work.  You are also working in hot/cold/dirty environments.  It's a noble profession and pays well once you get some experience, but I think office type jobs are more desirable for a number of reasons.  This experiment gave me a whole new appreciation for how good I have it with a well paying office job (commercial real estate development).

I also think you would not be as mentally stimulated doing trades type work (physical and repetitive) and have unpredictable, potentially long commutes to jobsites.

If you like construction, perhaps a job as a project manager would give you the best of both worlds - you get to be involved in exciting construction projects, see how the sausage is made, but not have to beat your body up for lower pay.



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Re: bluecollarFIRE
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2021, 12:40:18 PM »
Also OP if you are female (or not a beefy looking guy)  be aware there is still a double standard in many places when it comes to hiring for both skilled and unskilled jobs. Im a female and even with my long career with many journey level varied skills I was often viewed as less capable and able compared to most men just based on my appearance and gender. Even those who didn't have my level of experience or training.  I think that's changed a lot but I think I might have found it hard to find a side gig if I wanted in many of the areas I was skilled in  (although I did do some side jobs working on large ship engines and other things).

While this might not be an issue, it is good to be aware that just because you might find a certain kind of work rewarding and fun, others may not want to hire you if you aren't skilled or don't "appear" to have the physicality to hack the demands of the job.

(I know the thread is a bit old, but as it's already been necroposted in I read it through and wanted to add...)

In some trades, being female can be an advantage. In the sort of trades where you work as a sole trader/self-employed person working alone in someone else's home, there is a niche demand for female tradespeople. For example, you might advertise yourself as a specifically female plumber or a female electrician. Often, women living alone would prefer to have a female tradesperson in to do work - a bit like how women often prefer to learn to drive with a female instructor. There will, of course, be jerks who underestimate your competence because you're a woman, but you don't have to do every job going - just enough work to earn enough money, and so you may find that being a woman gives your a commercial advantage. I would certainly encourage my daughter into that sort of trade if she showed an interest and aptitude for it.

It's very true what people say about different kinds of working with your hands taking different tolls on your body. Bricklayers are outside all the time, hefting different weights all the time, bending to different heights. Plumbers are crawling under awkward work surfaces. Seamstresses are going blind and getting RSI.

If I were to choose a trade, I would choose certified gas boiler engineer. (We don't have a lot of air con in this country!) Higher pay because of limited number of people who get the certification (as opposed to starting as a general labourer on a building site). High demand because it's illegal to DIY and annual inspections are compulsory in rentals. Presumably the option to work "office hours" doing inspections and planned callouts or higher pay for "on call" emergency repairs. And I imagine part-time jobs are available too, or ad hoc shifts. Either way, indoor work whatever the weather! Lots of regulation about where newer combi boilers are allowed to be installed so less crawling around in attics! Big downside would be having to drive around a lot - I'd want to work for a big company that gave me a company car/van so I wouldn't have to run my own.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 12:45:27 PM by shelivesthedream »