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Digital Dogma

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2017, 12:35:30 PM »
The knock-on effect of the Cryptocurrency gold rush is also changing the technology we all rely on. For the first time in a LONG time, AMD has given Intel some serious competition in the processor market. Radeon is competing with Nvidia for high efficiency parallel processing. Customers are under-volting their equipment for efficiency instead of simply over-clocking for speed and consuming more power.

There is now a demand for high efficiency processing power thats not cell-phone based, and its being driven by people who believe they can make money speculating on cryptocurrency. It is likely laying the groundwork for tomorrow's must-have technology.

Tonyahu

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2017, 05:14:24 PM »
Ethereum will change the entire platform of how many businesses are run and will usher in Web 3.0.

It will become mainstream within 3-10 years and will then be seen as a "good investment". The time to buy is now.

Cheers to all who welcome this information and do more research, eventually realizing the truth.

accolay

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2017, 03:38:58 AM »
Ethereum will change the entire platform of how many businesses are run and will usher in Web 3.0.

It will become mainstream within 3-10 years and will then be seen as a "good investment". The time to buy is now.

Cheers to all who welcome this information and do more research, eventually realizing the truth.

If you've still got some cash after the bitcoin mania, I could probably come up with some beanie babies to sell you.

dougules

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2017, 11:07:49 AM »
global bitcoin mining uses several times the electricity of a global corporation:  bitcoin in 2017 is using 5.5x the electricity annualized that Bank of America used in 2012:

https://about.bankofamerica.com/assets/pdf/2012-environmental-report.pdf (page 18: 10.6M GJ ~ 3 TWh)
http://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption (15.46 TWh)

--

yes, energy consumption going forward is a crucial issue.  i am mostly concerned about bitcoin mining driving up the price of renewable electricity for everyone else.  i'm not too concerned about pollution/emissions because bitcoin miners rely on cheap renewable power.  mining happens on very thin margins and paying for fossil fuel-generated power isn't profitable and will just get more expensive in the future.

it will be interesting to see how Ethereum handles its switch to proof-of-stake.  if that works well it might signal the end of large-scale proof-of-work cryptocurrencies.  this competition between cryptocurrencies is another reason to not be too worried about it -- the market will pick the best currencies and the winners probably won't be wasteful world destroyers.

i agree with lifeanon269 that measuring energy consumption per transaction is silly.  bitcoin secures all historic transactions with every block, not just all new transactions.  and besides, 8MB of transactions does not require 8x the electricity to hash than 1MB of transactions.

another point:  bitcoins are not free to create.  that's the point of a proof-of-work system.  the electricity cost to produce a bitcoin is what makes them hard to counterfeit and is part of what makes them valuable.  this is in contrast to inflationary government currencies where money is created, for free, which has the effect of reducing the value of the existing money. 

although securing a currency isn't "wasting" power, for future sustainability i hope we find better uses for the heat generated from mining bitcoin instead of just dissipating it.  many of us use electricity to power water heaters and furnaces and we might as well generate some bitcoin while we're at it:

https://www.coindesk.com/winter-is-coming-bitcoin-mining-for-heat-and-profit/

Wow.  I guess the term "mining" is appropriate since it sounds like it has all the environmental effects of actual mining. 

Do those numbers take into account all the energy it takes to make and distribute the hardware they're using?


gp_

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2017, 04:51:11 PM »
If you've still got some cash after the bitcoin mania

mania? please explain.

phil22

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2017, 06:01:15 PM »
Do those numbers take into account all the energy it takes to make and distribute the hardware they're using?

those numbers are purely electricity usage from the links provided since that's a simple comparison.  i'm not counting BoA's indirect energy usage in the "Petroleum" and "Natural gas" categories from that PDF either (page 19).  if you want to count indirect, those categories raise BoA's energy consumption by 78%.

accolay

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2017, 02:18:40 AM »
If you've still got some cash after the bitcoin mania

mania? please explain.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/10/5-steps-of-a-bubble.asp
I think your answer is somewhere in the article between "Dutch Tulip Mania" and "3. Euphoria"

Digital Dogma

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2017, 10:34:43 AM »
Someone informed me recently that a popular computer parts online distributor newegg has begun accepting bitcoin directly as payment, people are very happy to spend their bitcoin directly on new hardware to expand their mining capability. In the past people would have to convert their bitcoin to gift cards, then use the gift cards on a site like Amazon. This is a far more direct way to use the currency, and given the high-end tech they sell, it should mean an increase in business going to newegg as opposed to other popular online retailers.

Once Amazon responds in kind and allows direct purchasing with bitcoin, we will know its become an accepted mainstream part of US culture.

Tonyahu

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2017, 04:33:57 PM »
Ethereum will change the entire platform of how many businesses are run and will usher in Web 3.0.

It will become mainstream within 3-10 years and will then be seen as a "good investment". The time to buy is now.

Cheers to all who welcome this information and do more research, eventually realizing the truth.

If you've still got some cash after the bitcoin mania, I could probably come up with some beanie babies to sell you.

What is the utility of a beanie baby?

I can name more than 1,000 use cases for the Ethereum Blockchain.

Tonyahu

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2017, 04:35:45 PM »
Someone informed me recently that a popular computer parts online distributor newegg has begun accepting bitcoin directly as payment, people are very happy to spend their bitcoin directly on new hardware to expand their mining capability. In the past people would have to convert their bitcoin to gift cards, then use the gift cards on a site like Amazon. This is a far more direct way to use the currency, and given the high-end tech they sell, it should mean an increase in business going to newegg as opposed to other popular online retailers.

Once Amazon responds in kind and allows direct purchasing with bitcoin, we will know its become an accepted mainstream part of US culture.

Overstock.com already accepts it.

Amazon is currently looking to hire a Blockchain developer.

The time will come, the early investors will be the ones rewarded while the bubble callers will cry "bubble" all the way until the end, when they must buy in as well but near the plateau....

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2017, 04:54:52 PM »
Overstock.com already accepts it.

Amazon is currently looking to hire a Blockchain developer.

The time will come, the early investors will be the ones rewarded while the bubble callers will cry "bubble" all the way until the end, when they must buy in as well but near the plateau....

Overstock also just recently stated that they're now changing their strategy and will be keeping 50% of their bitcoin sales earnings as an investment going forward. That's a clear sign that they see value in the currency itself and that they're not just accepting bitcoin payments as a mere PR stunt. Other retailers will certainly take notice of that move.

dreadmoose

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2017, 05:26:39 PM »
I wonder (speculate?) if the real winners here will be the people developing the blockchain technology to get completely new industry jobs at Amazon, Google, Apple etc? Or if they will potentially only get the less skilled ones as it'd be hard to imagine making as much money at a company as it is in the value of some of these currencies now.
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lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2017, 06:37:44 AM »
Or another way to look at it is that they've completely lost their minds and its time to go short Overstock...

If a company wanted to, How would it even pay out bitcoin as a dividend?  Would all shareholders be required to have a crypto currency wallet? Would this mean that all transfer agents and brokers would need to know the bitcoin wallets of the registered and beneficial owners in order to credit the dividend?  I mean most dividends today are credited electronically, but if all else fails they company will send a check to the registered owner -- but there's not such thing as a bitcoin check.  And, for U.S. owners a bitcoin dividend would be reported to the IRS how? Oh wait ,thats right...the bitcoins would have to be converted to real money first. Nvr mnd.

I hope, for the sake of their shareholders, Overstock's bitcoin private keys don't get lost or stolen in the meantime while the speculate in this baloney.

Whoa whoa, easy there, pump the breaks a little. Don't go off the deep end. You seem to always go full throttle on your analyses. We go from having a company see value in the currency itself and not just a means of "being trendy" or promotion ...to... "How would they ever pay their investors in bitcoin go short Overstock now!!!".

Seriously, I read that their bitcoin sales only account for about 1% or less of their total sales volume. So no need to get ahead of ourselves here. Keeping half of their 1% bitcoin sales in bitcoin is just simply a smart investment strategy as they recognize the value in the currency itself long term.



EDIT: Reworded "half of 1% of their bitcoin sales" to be more accurate to what I meant.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:47:38 AM by lifeanon269 »

maizeman

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2017, 07:06:26 AM »
Apple certainly holds significant amounts of euros, RMB, and Real as part of their $250B foreign earnings stockpile. It would be just as impossible for them to pay dividends to their investors in any of these currencies, but I don't see that anyone is too concerned by the prospect.

jlcnuke

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2017, 07:44:40 AM »
Apple certainly holds significant amounts of euros, RMB, and Real as part of their $250B foreign earnings stockpile. It would be just as impossible for them to pay dividends to their investors in any of these currencies, but I don't see that anyone is too concerned by the prospect.

This is true.

But, bitcoin is not a foreign currency.

When a foreigner is paid dividends in "USD", but their account is in GBP (for instance), their balance isn't "XYZ" GBP and "ABC" USD. The USD is converted to GBP for them. No reason a company couldn't pay out in Bitcoin, and have the bitcoin amounts converted to another currency to be deposited in people's accounts.
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maizeman

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2017, 08:26:03 AM »
Apple certainly holds significant amounts of euros, RMB, and Real as part of their $250B foreign earnings stockpile. It would be just as impossible for them to pay dividends to their investors in any of these currencies, but I don't see that anyone is too concerned by the prospect.

This is true.

But, bitcoin is not a foreign currency.

I don't disagree with this statement but I'm clearly missing the point you are intending to make with it.

maizeman

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2017, 09:34:08 AM »
Ah gotcha.

I'd argue apple's ridiculously large foreign currency holdings are also a form of speculation (that at some point there will be another tax holiday like the one in 2004 that let corporations bring bring in foreign earnings at a 5% tax rate instead of a 35% tax rate). Until then they just sit. (And are not being used to pay dividends). So to me this seems more similar to overstock holding some of their non-USD income in the original currency they were paid in.

Regarding your concerns about how to carry bitcoins on a corporate balance sheet, a lot of bitcoin exchanges are legally recognized. "Legit" is more of a value judgement though, so I suppose one could argue none of them are legit. It'd be interesting to compare the volatility of the the bitcoin USD exchange rate to the variation in the price of commodities that are carried on corporate balance sheets. I agree with you it would be higher than the USD exchange rates for many or most government backed currencies. It is certainly lower than the volatility of some stocks, yet companies have no trouble carrying those on a balance sheet.

Implied questions get answered a lot less often that explicit questions. I honestly didn't realize you were curious about that, but now that I do:

I don't know what overstock is doing in this case specifically, but one option would be to use cryptographic techniques to split the private key into several "shards" which are held by different people. These can be constructed in such a way every piece is needed in order to use the private key, or that, for example any 5 of 7 pieces are needed to use the private key. This provides redundancy in the case of the loss of pieces of the key, while also not requiring complete trust in any one individual not to run off with the contents of the bitcoin wallet.

dougules

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2017, 10:43:56 AM »
Apple certainly holds significant amounts of euros, RMB, and Real as part of their $250B foreign earnings stockpile. It would be just as impossible for them to pay dividends to their investors in any of these currencies, but I don't see that anyone is too concerned by the prospect.

This is true.

But, bitcoin is not a foreign currency.

Actually it is.  It's a currency and it was started in Japan.  (I'm assuming you're not in Japan because then it wouldn't be foreign). 


Apple certainly holds significant amounts of euros, RMB, and Real as part of their $250B foreign earnings stockpile. It would be just as impossible for them to pay dividends to their investors in any of these currencies, but I don't see that anyone is too concerned by the prospect.

This is true.

But, bitcoin is not a foreign currency.

I don't disagree with this statement but I'm clearly missing the point you are intending to make with it.

The original comment from LA269 that I was responding to was that the company's earnings would be kept in the form of bitcoin.  Absent debt financing or a partial liquidation of a company, dividends are necessarily paid from earnings.  So either the bitcoin would need to be converted to cash to pay dividends from it, or the dividends would be paid from the cash portion of earnings and the bitcoin would just "sit" and comprise a speculation (in my opinion, anyway).

I don't think your comparison of bitcoin with foreign currency holdings is apt.  Foreign currencies are currencies in the foreign jurisdiction and can be used to settle taxes, pay judgments, etc in those jurisdictions immediately and without intermediate steps.  They derive inherent value from this.  They are also kept on the corps balance sheet as foreign currency holdings, and can be accounted for in the companies cash flow statement by adjusting using the prevailing exchange rate.  Further, foreign currencies can be converted at will to another currency using an incredibly deep currency exchange market and which is facilitated by the bank for international settlements. 

How exactly does Overstock plan to account for bitcoin on the balance sheet and in cash flow statements?  The exchange rate with USD anyhow is too volatile, and its not like the exchange is based on an actual quote from a legit foreign exchange dealer or a published exchange rate from a legally recognized market.  Further, how can conversion to a currency such as USD be reasonable assured, especially at large quantities of bitcoin or high dollar amounts? There are websites that hold themselves out as exchanges and which publish rates for sure, but how are these to be taken seriously?

Also, no one has commented on my implied question of what is to happen with the corporation's private keys?  Are these kept by a single person? A group of people?  How can they be trusted and what happens if there is a breach of trust? What if these keys are lost or stolen by a third party?   With currency in a bank an individual's authority to transact in an account can be controlled by an agreement between the company and the bank where the currency is held.  But with bitcoin, the private key is the authority to transact.

A nitpick, but an important nitpick, bitcoin IS cash.  "converted to cash" should be "exchanged into USD"  I know it's semantics, but people can't seem to remember that bitcoin is just another form of cash.  That leads people to think bitcoin is an investment when it's just currency speculation the same as if you were playing the exchange rate with the rupee or the baht. 

If a company had a breach of trust with the company's keys, how would it be any different than any other form of embezzlement?  If you worked for a diamond dealer you could have the diamonds hidden in a secret vault in Juarez, and it would be the exact same thing. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:54:20 AM by dougules »

dougules

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2017, 11:23:04 AM »
I agree that bitcoin is a currency.  It's different because it's a totally new currency from a nation that didn't exist before.

It's like the currency of a new island nation being formed by a volcano.  It's a volatile place with new eruptions happening all the time that could make the island bigger and better or could kill everyone on it.  A few people are starting to move to this island to live and use the currency.  Some are poor people with few other options.  Some are rich who want to try something new and exciting and can afford the risk. 

The people on the island only control a tiny fraction of the currency.  There are orders of magnitude more people looking in from the outside and engaging in currency speculation/investment.  Most believe the island has a future, and want to participate in the gains.  These investors/speculators drive the price movement of the currency. 

It's impossible to tell if the island will grow into a huge nation or fall back into the sea.

Totally agree.

alena30

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #119 on: September 27, 2017, 06:45:45 AM »
It is useful and always be till the time bankers don't prove it a fraud. By the statement of many big investors the entire scenario becomes dicey but one thing is for sure if the cryptocurrency grows one sector is gonna face a massive fall and that is banking. So for everything digital medium is used so why not for money. 

Digital Dogma

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #120 on: September 27, 2017, 01:56:15 PM »
It may have something to do with the CEO of JP Morgan assailing Bitcoin as a "scam" while simultaneously purchasing Bitcoin for their "customers" after it dropped in value in response to comments the CEO of JP Morgan made. http://fortune.com/2017/09/18/jpmorgan-buy-bitcoin-ceo-callingfraud/

A month of news in the cryptocurrency world is like a years worth of regular economic happenings, a lot of this stuff is common knowledge to people who hold/trade the stuff. Lots of "Fake News" like JP Morgan's CEO statement out there too, trying to manipulate the markets.

alena30

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies - are they useful?
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2017, 04:08:09 AM »
They are not only useful but they can be called as a future of currency same as the internet became the future of communication, everyday activities today relies on internet and the same way change needs to be accepted if we are turning digital then why not the currency and till how long we are going to be dependent govt and their central system. Today for every basic thing we depend on technology so it cryptocurrency,  let the currency turn digital in this technical era.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #122 on: October 09, 2017, 06:19:45 PM »
I think that cryptocurrencies can't be too useful as currencies until the value stops fluctuating by multiple percent each day. To be useful as a medium of exchange, people on both sides of the transaction should believe that those coins will be worth about the same tomorrow and next week as they were today.

We can see from episodes of hyperinflation what happens when people believe a currency has nowhere to go but down: they treat that currency as a hot potato and spend it as quickly as possible with any merchant foolish enough to accept it. In the case of a currency where most people believe it will rapidly appreciate in value: why would you ever spend it?

Volatility isn't as much of a problem with a token such as Ripples where you're not intended to buy everyday goods and services with them.
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MVal

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2017, 01:50:52 PM »
How do you all feel about Bitconnect for generating dividends for reinvestment? I'm also interested to hear what anyone knows about the upcoming hard fork to Segwit2x.
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MystryBox

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2017, 05:40:07 PM »
I'm also interested to hear what anyone knows about the upcoming hard fork to Segwit2x.

The upcoming fork for Segwit2x is on the surface about upgrading bitcoin to handle more transactions and for lower fees.  However it's also a struggle for who controls the bitcoin codebase.  Bitcoin is an open source project but it is currently controlled by a particular group, bitcoin core.  Core does not want bitcoin to scale on the bitcoin blockchain but rather sees a future in a new (but unproven) technologies like lightning and side chains (which a certain company intends to monetize as their business model, a company which conveniently employs many core developers).  Meanwhile most bitcoin miners and many key bitcoin businesses are unhappy with the high fees and delays associated with bitcoin not scaling and want on-chain scaling.  These on-chain scaling proponents got together to agree on a 2x blocksize increase for bitcoin, but it is heavily opposed by core.  Because core won't agree to code the 2x fork, another group is coding the fork and if Segwit2x is successful it will mean control of bitcoin shifts to a different group of devs. 

The 2x fork being successful or not is a very difficult issue.  For the most part miners decide, but exchanges and other businesses and even users also play a role.  For myself I don't know what is going to happen but I can't imagine the drama will be good for bitcoin price so I sold off the majority of bitcoin that I've been holding for years.  I sold before the Bitcoin Cash fork thinking that would hurt price also, but it didn't...  so I've been wrong so far.  But honestly Bitcoin development has been stagnant for a long time now and the drama is off the charts.  There are altcoins in much better shape.  It's unclear to me how bitcoin has managed to hold up in value through all this (beyond the fact most bitcoin investors don't really know what is going on).  Regardless I'm not recommending bitcoin to anyone until this mess is sorted out.

Luxerus

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #125 on: December 04, 2017, 01:24:13 PM »
How do you all feel about Bitconnect for generating dividends for reinvestment?

Please don't even mention that name, it's a well-known Ponzi scheme that's allowed to continue existing because it is in Thailand.

There was something similar in Quebec, Plexcoin, and the guy just got fined for a ridiculously small amount (but at least they got caught and shut down).

DumpTruck

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2017, 02:33:45 PM »

[/quote]

Please don't even mention that name, it's a well-known Ponzi scheme that's allowed to continue existing because it is in Thailand.

There was something similar in Quebec, Plexcoin, and the guy just got fined for a ridiculously small amount (but at least they got caught and shut down).
[/quote]

Are you talking about bitcoin or the US dollar is the ponzi scheme? lol

simonkkkkk

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Re: Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies discussion thread
« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2018, 04:49:45 AM »
No it's not to late