Author Topic: Biking and Safety  (Read 1969 times)

KBCB

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Biking and Safety
« on: April 11, 2018, 04:57:22 PM »
Hello All! This is my very first post.

I love the idea of biking and it seems that many Mustachians live to tell the tale. I am however scared to death! I am not scared of biking I am scared of getting hit by a car or falling.
I live in a small city where we have 4 very distinct seasons. Lots of snow/ice in winter and blistering hot days in summer. Below are the of the aspects of biking that keep me from trying it.

1. I live 8 miles away from work that takes me into very heavy commuted roads. Most of these roads don't have large shoulders if much of any at all.
2. The winter puts both the roads and sidewalks in terrible condition. Huge pot holes, dirt and rock everywhere. Many don't get fixed for years.
3. I live across from a shopping plaza with both clothing and grocery stores (Face Punch worthy..) I DRIVE TO IT. When I first moved into the house I always walked and after almost getting hit by distracted drivers (many times) I have stopped. (side note: Who needs to speed in a shopping plaza parking lot anyway?). Is this worse on actual roads?

The area I am in is beautiful and I love the idea of biking for both fitness and the environment. I also dream of taking my very young son on bike rides in a tag-a-long once summer hits.

 Any pointers on how to overcome this fear and be as safe as I can be?

hadabeardonce

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 05:27:37 PM »
If you want to compare commuting conditions, this is a fun thread from another forum: http://forums.mtbr.com/commuting/how-your-commute-today-569221-232.html

I started commuting last year to get in better shape. It sounds like you want to do it, so my best tip is just to go ride. Once you huff, puff and pedal your way to work you'll get an idea of how it is and feel like you can do it again. Front & rear lights and high visibility clothing will help out a lot. You'll surprised how tolerant of cyclists most motorists can be, but unsurprised by a few idiots.

I live 5 miles from work. The roads I take see a lot of traffic, but there's a bike lane 95% of the way. California sees two seasons... maybe.

Biking could potentially be putting yourself at risk, but you're always at risk anyway. There are dangers lurking around every corner; excessive sitting leads to cancer, breathing leads to cancer, being in the sun leads to cancer, cars lead to getting hit by larger cars and probably getting cancer. Damned if you do, damned if you don't - but you'll have more fun doing than don'ting.

NestEgg

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 07:48:12 PM »
You should take steps to be excessively visible and safe: front and back lights, a side view mirror, and possibly a reflecting safety vest. When biking in narrow streets, don't hesitate to take the entire lane. Let people be forced to pass you at a stop sign, or by going into the opposite lane.

For commuting, I see two options. First, try to commute outside of rush hour. Second, do some research on Google Maps for alternative bike routes on lower traffic roads which go parallel to the heavily commuted road. The route you select may not be exactly parallel and may be longer than a driving route.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2018, 07:57:03 PM »
If you are that afraid of getting hit by a car (and I do not blame you!), then you should not do it.

No matter how careful you as a bicyclist are, no matter how many reflectors, hand signals, etc you use, you are no match for some idiot driving a SUX 6000 with a freakin' dog in their lap (many drivers these days!!), drinking the latte, commenting on facebook about Justin Beeber's latest exploits, screaming at their little Jeffrey Dahmer Einstein in the back seat, etc, etc. One of those veers into your bike lane and crushes you, game over. All of your supposed savings in bicycling will go up in smoke when your dirtbag, derelict insurance company decides that they don't want to pay one of the many doctors who worked on you in the emergency room.

Where I live in SoCal (in many places in SoCal!), you'd be borderline suicidal to commute on a bicycle--far, far too many idiots, not to mention HOT, HOT, HOT for much of the year, piss poor air quality, etc. Even if there were a safe bike lane all the way, I refuse to show up to work a sweaty mess. And I refuse to bike home through gangland (i.e., most of SoCal) at night.

Get yourself a hybrid or electric is my advice and save the biking for off-road trails.

I used to commute to work in Vancouver, but most of it was off-road through Pacific Spirit Park. However, I just took the bus when we started getting ice on the road and occasional snow. Ice + bicycling is a dangerous combination!   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 08:04:08 PM by ObviouslyNotAGolfer »

Travis

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 08:20:49 PM »
You don't have to go all-in right away. Pick the more hospitable time of the year, load up on lights and bright clothes and try it out.  Ride as little or as much is comfortable.  I'd stay away from biking if the streets are going to be covered in snow during winter.  The bike lane will be the deposit site for shovels and cars won't see the lines as clearly.

SwitchActiveDWG

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 04:36:24 AM »
If you are that afraid of getting hit by a car (and I do not blame you!), then you should not do it.


Where I live in SoCal (in many places in SoCal!), you'd be borderline suicidal to commute on a bicycle--far, far too many idiots, not to mention HOT, HOT, HOT for much of the year, piss poor air quality, etc. Even if there were a safe bike lane all the way, I refuse to show up to work a sweaty mess. And I refuse to bike home through gangland (i.e., most of SoCal) at night.

Get yourself a hybrid or electric is my advice and save the biking for off-road trails.

Same for where I live. I know of one person at my office who bikes. He’s been doing it for years. Hit by a car twice since he started, one of the times required a trip to the hospital.

No thanks! I’ll stick with my Prius and bike on the trails.

Le Poisson

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 05:13:57 AM »
I see the land of the brave is also full of fear. That is unfortunate.

My take on this is incremental. Can you start off by driving partway, and biking the rest? 8 miles is quite a respectable distance for a start, and I'd be intimidated too, especially if I had'n been cycling for a long time. When I first started cycle-commuting, my wife and I would carpool to a point about 4 miles from my office, and then I would hop out and ride the last bit in. This worked well because I was able to get familiar with the bit furthest from home and figure out where the infrastructure for cycling was. (HINT: one of the best ways to take the fear out of cycle commuting is finding the paths and parks that remove you from traffic). On days my wife wasn't available, I parked at a WalMart and still rode in.

The part-commute had a two-fold benefit. First, I got the experience and network building of actually riding in, and second, it got my coworkers talking and encouraging me.

If you can start by shortening the ride and then figuring out how to build alternate networks and different routes you may be able to find a way to work that is better.

Once you start ditching the car, another phenomenon will happen - you will discover the other folks who are regular riders. With some luck, you can build up a group of riders. Having a set of 3 or 4 people riding together creates a safer "pack" which drivers can see, plus the camaraderie of riding together is nice and encouraging. Even if none of the other riders are on your route, you will become part of a sort of brotherhood, which feeds into the "build your tribe" mentality that MMM talks about.

Further to all this, most municipalities are trying to encourage utility cycling right now. I bet if you call your town hall and ask what resources are available to cyclists, you will get at a minimum a map and some safety guidance. You should ask them for advice on routing. The traffic department knows which roads get the most safety complaints and can help you discover new routes.

I like the stuff we have here in the Toronto area for beginner cycle-commuters, you can see the guidance for beginner cycle-commuters here: http://smartcommute.ca/bike/getting-started/ - most people start off by doing practice runs to work early on a Sunday morning when there is virtually no traffic. This is to figure out riding time and the sweat factor. Then start riding in once per week as they build up cardio/strength. Eventually you will build up from there. Don't go in whole hog unless you are already a seasoned rider.

[EDIT TO ADD - if you trust me enough to PM your trip ends (where you start/end) I'll see if I can find you some network connections, or I'll reach out to your cycling advocacy groups to see if they know of routing you may not be aware of.) /EDIT]

Caveats/disclosures:

1. I am a traffic engineer who killed their commute in order to save money. I cycle because I'm cheap. By cycling I removed myself from the world of road safety engineering (morbid) and into the world of cycle network planning (fun!). I now get paid to ride my bike around the city looking for ways to make it more fun to ride my bike around the city. Pretty good gig.

2. Because I believe we lead by doing, I took my 9 year old on a 450 km bike ride last summer (Toronto to Ottawa) and he loved it so much, we are going to NYC this summer (see link in signature). I often point out that if a 9 yr old can do these ride in major cities, most adults can too. Its all about route planning, being predictable, and knowing the basics of road safety.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 05:33:03 AM by Prospector »

Khaetra

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 05:29:45 AM »
If you are that afraid of getting hit by a car (and I do not blame you!), then you should not do it.

No matter how careful you as a bicyclist are, no matter how many reflectors, hand signals, etc you use, you are no match for some idiot driving a SUX 6000 with a freakin' dog in their lap (many drivers these days!!), drinking the latte, commenting on facebook about Justin Beeber's latest exploits, screaming at their little Jeffrey Dahmer Einstein in the back seat, etc, etc. One of those veers into your bike lane and crushes you, game over. All of your supposed savings in bicycling will go up in smoke when your dirtbag, derelict insurance company decides that they don't want to pay one of the many doctors who worked on you in the emergency room.

Sadly this is true.  I would love to bike to the store but there have been a number of people here killed while riding and my city is not bike-friendly at all.  Many have the attitude "Get off the f-in street!  It's for cars only!" and combined with the above examples of people not paying attention I'll keep my car, thanks.  If it scares you, don't do it.

Le Poisson

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 05:45:15 AM »
If you are that afraid of getting hit by a car (and I do not blame you!), then you should not do it.

No matter how careful you as a bicyclist are, no matter how many reflectors, hand signals, etc you use, you are no match for some idiot driving a SUX 6000 with a freakin' dog in their lap (many drivers these days!!), drinking the latte, commenting on facebook about Justin Beeber's latest exploits, screaming at their little Jeffrey Dahmer Einstein in the back seat, etc, etc. One of those veers into your bike lane and crushes you, game over. All of your supposed savings in bicycling will go up in smoke when your dirtbag, derelict insurance company decides that they don't want to pay one of the many doctors who worked on you in the emergency room.

Sadly this is true.  I would love to bike to the store but there have been a number of people here killed while riding and my city is not bike-friendly at all.  Many have the attitude "Get off the f-in street!  It's for cars only!" and combined with the above examples of people not paying attention I'll keep my car, thanks.  If it scares you, don't do it.

Can I just point out that saying "There are too many cars, hence, I drive my car" is about as smart as sitting still in traffic on the way to  the gym to sit on a stationary bike. Instead of this, what if those of you in cities without cycling infrastructure called town hall and asked between the parks and engineering departments, what cycling infrastructure existed.

The whole goal of cities that are vested in cycling is to build infrastructure that removes cyclists from vehicle lanes. Often folks new to cycling are still thinking like drivers - about roads. Meanwhile cyclists tend to think about paths and parks. If the roads are unsafe... don't ride on them. And if town hall isn't providing you the resources you need, then ask why not, and then demand better.

The number of people who have replied with fear in this thread is sad. We live in countries that are built on freedom, and fear is the opposite of that. If the freedom of something as simple as riding a bike to the shops has been taken from you, then your town/county has failed you. I pity you.

Khaetra

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2018, 06:32:13 AM »
Sadly infrastructure sucks in my city and it's so built up there would be no place to put in any bike paths.  Some of the subdivisions around me don't even have sidewalks.  As far as safety and cars go, this story from my city is quite eye-opening, hence my fear of biking.  Not that driving is any safer, but some barrier is better than none:

http://spacecoastdaily.com/2018/04/melbourne-police-operation-attention-getter165-tickets-40-warnings-40-percent-of-drivers-distracted/

Le Poisson

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2018, 07:32:39 AM »
Sadly infrastructure sucks in my city and it's so built up there would be no place to put in any bike paths.  Some of the subdivisions around me don't even have sidewalks.  As far as safety and cars go, this story from my city is quite eye-opening, hence my fear of biking.  Not that driving is any safer, but some barrier is better than none:

http://spacecoastdaily.com/2018/04/melbourne-police-operation-attention-getter165-tickets-40-warnings-40-percent-of-drivers-distracted/

So don't ride where the cars are! I've never been to Melbourne, but my friendly google suggests the following as resources...

http://www.mapmyride.com/us/melbourne-fl/   <-- Routes that other real-live people are riding!! As recorded by real live people!!
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#12.18/-80.61169/28.11237/hot/all  <---- Bike rides recorded on cell phone data magic woo-woo. Where real-live people actually ARE riding. Without dying.
http://spacecoasttpo.com/traffic-counts/ <--- Auto trip counts conducted by your own traffic/planning department. Find out where the cars are and stay away!!


https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/mobilize/2016/08/05/trailblazers-5-bike-trails-south-brevard/88182698/
http://www.spacecoastoutdoors.net/Biking_Home.html
http://www.spacecoastoutdoors.net/Biking_Locations_Greenways_South.html


And if none of these help you, here is the advisory committee to help you make your town more bike-friendly/safe. http://spacecoasttpo.com/walk-bicycle/

Added bonus - here is your county's Cycling/walking plan. Looks fairly progressive. You should be encouraging its buildout. http://spacecoasttpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/SCTPO_MobilityPlan_FINAL_123013.pdf They have some nice trail corridors defined and some good network connections. The ladder structure of the network allows good connectivity across the built area and the greenway gives some nice recreational connections.

I know, this is arguing with facts and you are coming from a position of emotion. Just know that you CAN cycle if you choose to. If it is your choice not to cycle, then we are debating for fun and not for anything productive. I can't change your emotions, only provide facts.

Perhaps the biggest fact you are looking for - or ignoring is here: https://firesportal.com/Pages/Public/QuickStats.aspx This link shows that:

So far in 2018, Brevard County has had 1200 injury crashes. 71 of those involved bicycles. 1130 involved people in cars. 26 people have died in traffic crashes. 1 cyclist has died. Sounds like a lot more cars and the people in them involved in crashes than bikes or the people on them.


HenryDavid

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2018, 07:58:42 AM »
Lots of great suggestions here. People are right to say, take it slow at first.

When I started bike commuting nearly 40 years back, I did this:
1. study the maps. Look for bus routes: they aren't the most direct, but they can get you places using routes you might not have thought of. Get a city bus map and study it. Biking a slightly longer, indirect route may end up safer and more enjoyable.
2. Once you have a route, do a practice ride ON THE WEEKEND, not a work day. Go sloooow. Look for places you can be safest: side streets that parallel your desired route, bits of sidewalk if necessary. Cross major intersections like a pedestrian if it's safer ( that is, don't turn left from the middle lane, though that's legal).
3. The suggestion of a mixed commute is smart. I see this very morning: people drive to a free city lot near a bike path, get the bike off the roof or out of the trunk, hop on their bikes, and ride a flat 7k to the city centre. Better than driving in the most congested part of town, and paying for downtown parking.
4. Sometimes you can take your bike on a bus or subway for part of a route.
Have fun, save $, stay safe.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2018, 08:24:07 AM »
As angry as most drivers appear to be, my experience has been that they typically don't want a bicycle shaped indentation on the hood of their car.  To maximize this benefit, you want to be very visible.  Wear a helmet.  Wear bright clothing.  Have reflectors and lights on both you and your bike.

Cycling in busy city traffic is a learned skill.  There's a flow to traffic that you have to learn, and it's a bit different in a bike than in a car (you have to expect that people will cut you off, will not give you the space when they're supposed to, and will rarely follow traffic laws.  As has been mentioned, you want to ease into this by cycling during less busy times when starting out, by choosing the quietest routes you can, and by reading some websites about safe cycling in traffic.  (http://floridabicycle.org/drive-your-bike/)  There are even places you can go for instructional courses if you're really unsure.

KBCB

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 08:28:20 AM »


This is fantastic. I never thought to driving part way and biking the rest. I will PM you because I would love to see what you would recommend!



I see the land of the brave is also full of fear. That is unfortunate.

My take on this is incremental. Can you start off by driving partway, and biking the rest? 8 miles is quite a respectable distance for a start, and I'd be intimidated too, especially if I had'n been cycling for a long time. When I first started cycle-commuting, my wife and I would carpool to a point about 4 miles from my office, and then I would hop out and ride the last bit in. This worked well because I was able to get familiar with the bit furthest from home and figure out where the infrastructure for cycling was. (HINT: one of the best ways to take the fear out of cycle commuting is finding the paths and parks that remove you from traffic). On days my wife wasn't available, I parked at a WalMart and still rode in.

I like the stuff we have here in the Toronto area for beginner cycle-commuters, you can see the guidance for beginner cycle-commuters here: http://smartcommute.ca/bike/getting-started/ - most people start off by doing practice runs to work early on a Sunday morning when there is virtually no traffic. This is to figure out riding time and the sweat factor. Then start riding in once per week as they build up cardio/strength. Eventually you will build up from there. Don't go in whole hog unless you are already a seasoned rider.

[EDIT TO ADD - if you trust me enough to PM your trip ends (where you start/end) I'll see if I can find you some network connections, or I'll reach out to your cycling advocacy groups to see if they know of routing you may not be aware of.) /EDIT]


Travis

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 10:55:02 AM »


The number of people who have replied with fear in this thread is sad. We live in countries that are built on freedom, and fear is the opposite of that. If the freedom of something as simple as riding a bike to the shops has been taken from you, then your town/county has failed you. I pity you.

Self-preservation is a natural concern. Most of the "fear" here contains mitigation techniques as well.  Not every city is bike-friendly. It's just a fact of life.  I've lived in places where there was no bike lane and the traffic was either too aggressive or the roads too narrow to have a reasonable expectation for sharing it.  It's going to make people err on the side of their personal safety.  Keep your pity. 

I was almost hit by a car today on my bike ride to work. It was a green light and the car made a right hand turn while I was continuing through the intersection without seeing me even though I was even with it.  It was a major road with multiple lanes and a very wide bike lane.  Accidents and carelessness still happen.  I've accepted this occasional risk, but not everybody has that level of confidence, and not when they're not already a regular biker.

mschaus

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 01:31:28 PM »
I’d highly recommend everyone here stating the impossibility of biking to read the MMM blog since I think some of the key points are being missed. Even if it were truly impossible to find a reasonable route to work (and this is unlikely in most cases), you always have the option to be proactive and rearrange your life to be more efficient, healthy, and happy.

The benefits of cycling cascade way beyond just how you get to work:
•   You are exercising instead of being sedentary
•   You’ll feel better every morning leading to increased focus, work performance, and eventually career success
•   You’ll make friends and be a more interesting person
•   You’ll have a new hobby that may replace sedentary time watching tv or news alone on the couch
•   The boost you’ll feel in accomplishment, health, and self-esteem will encourage you to accomplish even more of your goals and eventually save the world.
•   Side benefit, you’ll get richer faster.

All from a simple bike. Start with short rides on nice days on any bike that rolls and take it from there!

KBurns – to help with your questions:
1.   Riding part way on a nice day is a great way to start. Try getting a buddy with a bike to look at a map with you to find alternatives and get out there on a Saturday morning to explore and see what could work.
2.   Winter… thankfully it’s April – deal with that later when you will be more excited about bikes
3.   I used to live in a similar situation by a parking lot – use flashing lights even during the day, be cautious and predictable. A bell can help with cars coming in/out of parking spots.
Enjoy your rides!

Not Sure

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 05:46:47 PM »
One other resource that might be helpful is to build confidence with recreational group rides.  Most cities of any size have these which are often organized by a bike shop.  Maybe talk to a couple local bike shops and see if there is a suitable group?

Remember that bike accident stories and statistics include wrong-way cyclists, sidewalk riders, drunks etc.  I think cycling is actually pretty safe for people who obey traffic laws and ride predictably.  That said, I do prefer to ride with a PROPERLY AIMED tail light.  Coworkers tell me they can see my 2-watt Cygolite Hotshot  from half a mile back.


Arbitrage

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2018, 08:14:56 PM »
Did my first bike commute today.  Sadly, today is Saturday, and it was unpaid work...but that's another matter.  Full-time bike commuting will start in a couple of months (child pickup obligations make it too difficult right now).

I live in SoCal, and the prevailing sentiment is certainly that one would have to be crazy to bike on the roads around here.  I basically felt the same way before about 2 months ago.  However, inspired by this site, I started looking into the possibility of e-biking to work; I did some google maps research and surprisingly found a route that didn't seem too unsafe.  Did a test ride on my regular bike during a day off, and was amazed by how doable it seemed. 

After committing to the e-bike commute, and purchasing the e-bike, I've grown more and more confident with experience.  There are definitely roads I prefer to avoid, but the fact that it's an e-bike actually makes me more confident even on fairly busy streets - it's much easier to maintain a speed closer to the speed of the cars, as well as to accelerate out of red lights/stop signs without disrupting traffic, and I don't feel nearly as bad about aggressively taking the lane when the shoulder is insufficient.

Certainly, you should take heed of other advice - mirrors, lights, clothing, reflectors, defensive riding (assume drivers are distracted, car doors are going to open, etc.), but don't cower way off to the side of the road.  Being aggressive at times to make yourself as visible as possible, and to discourage drivers from cutting close to you, can also be a valuable safety tool. 

the_fixer

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 12:42:10 PM »
I am verry torn on the bike commute subject I know it is great for the environment  and fitness but I think the cost savings is negligible when everything is considered and there is a real risk especially as people pay less and less attention.

My wife used to ride her bike 25 miles each way to work and back pretty much everyday except when snowing or below 30 degrees for about 5 years. She was in the best shape of her life and really enjoyed it.

One day on her way to work a 19 year old ran a red light and threw her across 3 Lanes of traffic. My wife was riding in the bike lane it was a nice summer morning and no reason for the person to not see her.

Due to a head injury she was unable to work for 6 months and unable to drive drive for about 2 years. It was a long road to recovery and cost us more than the insurance paid out and is something that will affect her for years.

After getting back to work at a new job due to losing the other one she started bike commuting again, made it a few years and was riding to work and hit a patch of sand, crashed and the shifter hit her mouth and broke off her front 4 teeth. Fast forward a year later and ~10k out of pocket above and beyond our dental insurance  she has pretty teeth again.

After this incident and almost getting hit multiple times she stopped bike commuting about 6 years ago because it was too much stress.

Now she has a job offer that is about 10 miles from home with an amazing bike path that is 8 miles of the journey but the last 2 would be on residential roads with a bike lane.

We drove the path today and she is weighing the risk, she is excited at the possibility and loves riding a bike more than anything so we will see what she decides.

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Le Poisson

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 06:34:32 PM »
Hey @Nightwatchman9270 - where in GA? I lived in Conyers, Dallas, and Buchannan for a while back in the nineties and loved it. Never owned a car the whole time. The shoulders sure are narrow on those county roads!! ;o)

Bikes and money is a good question. I think you're comparing cost in terms of dollars alone without add-in of the quality of life question. This turns away from the OP's post and toward "What is Mustachianism" - which IMO is not about maximizing every red penny so much as it's about maximizing every experience, and spending in a way that allows you do what that means to you.

We do have a split in the crowd here though between those who are more focused on ERE and those who are focused on "living deliberately... and suck out all the marrow of life..." In my case, I own an expensive-ish bike. I own it because it is a tool for my work. I own it because I enjoy it. I also own it because it is cheaper than 3 months of driving a car. I take that savings and apply it to sucking the marrow out of life. I intend to live deeply.

PoutineLover

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2018, 07:48:02 PM »
I think the real saving from biking comes from ditching the car completely. If you are still paying all the costs of a car but using it less, then yeah that won't be as significant. Where I live there are lots of bike lanes but I'm also not afraid to ride on the road when I need to, and I can get everywhere I need to go on bike or using public transit so I don't own a car. I realize that isn't the case everywhere, but I bet a lot of people just aren't seeing the possibilities because they are so used to driving.
For every bike accident mentioned here there are probably at least twice as many car accidents, but since people see cars as necessities they don't use that as reasons not to own a car.

the_fixer

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Re: Biking and Safety
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2018, 08:35:20 PM »
I am sure automobile accidents and deaths far outpace that of bicycles by magnitudes. Not saying riding a bike is bad or certain death just that you have to weigh the the risk and reality of the situation and make your own choice.

In some locations / situations the risk is higher you roll the dice and you take your chances.

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