Bikers: Please Obey Traffic Laws

[PoutineLover]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

[GuitarStv]

Even the city addresses it:  https://www.westonfl.org/residents/bicycle-traffic-safety/biking-in-weston

An older story but nothing has changed:  https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-2012-05-14-fl-bike-wars-weston-20120513-story.html

Read the whole article to get an idea of what I'm talking about.  It really is a big problem around here.  The cars do "own the road" per the law in this area.  So when bicyclists are aggressive, picking fights with drivers, and riding 6 abreast in vehicle lanes (with a perfectly nice/wide bike lane being ignored) - it causes a lot of problems.

I'm kinda impressed they were able to get six abreast in a lane.  You must have hella wide lanes . . . it's not really wide enough to get more than three (maybe four?) cyclists next to one another here.

Just as an aside . . . riding double file with a group is typically recommended for safety in certain circumstances . . . specifically if the road is not wide enough for a vehicle to pass a cyclist with three feet of room.




It's safer because vehicles passing the group have half length to pass . . . making the overtake shorter, and because vehicles must leave the lane in order to legally pass anyway (3 ft rule) so the amount of road width being taken up by cyclists doesn't matter.

Your images show exactly why there is so much contention, so much road rage.  It may be legal to use the road, but cyclists causing traffic backups and forcing vehicles in to oncoming traffic is obnoxious and rude.

Could you explain to me why riding two abreast (as shown in the pics) in a narrow lane would cause any animosity?  As shown in the picture, it's not possible for a vehicle to pass without leaving the lane when the cyclists are single file.  Riding two abreast means that the motorist is more easily and quickly able to overtake the cyclists.

The only real reason I can see for a motorist to get upset is if their plan is to illegally squeeze by the cyclists rather than leave safe (3 ft +) distance while passing.

Isn't the Camry in the image oncoming traffic?  If you have heavy oncoming traffic (as we do on similar 2 lane roads), it's very difficult to actually pass and you end up with a large backup of vehicles behind the bicycles.  And around here, we get groups of 30+ bicycles doing this.  So even 2 abreast, that group is 4X longer.  It's nearly impossible to pass.  And they ride in an area with traffic averaging around 50mph on a road like this.  So everyone sits behind them at 15mph, big backup of cars.  When you do want to pass, you have to accelerate heavily as oncoming traffic is pretty consistent and traveling at a high rate of speed.  So you have to try and squeeze by quickly.  Which also makes it dangerous for the bicyclists as people are aggressively and desperately trying to pass and get back over without a head on collision. And they do this while a bicycle path is 15 feet away out of the street but they are just too important to use the bicycle path.  I'm not sure where you live, so it may be hard to understand how it is around here.  Maybe traffic just isn't that bad on streets like this where you are.

Anyways, I wanted to find a good example, where I've been stopped up by bicycles countless times, and funny enough, a nice responsible cyclist is on the sidewalk where they should be in the streetview:  https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0689605,-80.3540261,3a,75y,165.23h,70.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0buFQyKfms7adshzxW-bMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It's not only a illegal and dangerous to pass, but the traffic is normally pretty consistent.  This is a light day when streetview was there and there is still a pretty consistent volume of cars, coming at you at 50mph on this road.  Imagine trying to pass a group of 20 - 30 bicycles?  Even when you get a single douchebag blocking up traffic it causes a huge problem here and difficult to pass.  A group?  It's a disaster and you have to basically just wait it out.  You asked why that causes animosity... disrupting peoples commutes and blocking traffic will naturally piss people off.  That shouldn't be surprising.

And this is probably the #1 area where people get furious:  https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1017619,-80.4164646,3a,60y,163.62h,81.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2x3w1deS-qOivSB7zCcXXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The road has no passing for essentially the entire length.  Miles.  A bike lane on the right.  And yet the groups will take the full lane (illegally).  This is much closer to where I live and the sidewalk is excellent here though there is a perfectly fine bike lane.  You know just as well as I do why they take the full lane.  Because as you all keep pointing out, it's safer to be in the lane than in the shoulder/bike lane.  So they put themselves ahead of everyone else, block up traffic, and disrupt countless drivers.  It's selfish.  If you don't want to ride in the bike lane, then don't ride HERE.  And again, you asked why the animosity between drivers and bicyclists?  This is why.  It's become a huge problem as on the weekends, we get hundreds of bicyclists all over our small city blocking up the roads.  Our city is so bike friendly and awesome, that it has become a hot spot.  And while most of the daily/evening riders are in the bike lanes and on the sidewalks, the groups that come are disastrous.  Even on 4 lane roads, they will often take both of the right lanes.  It's not cool.

Ok.  So you seem to have no problem with cyclists riding two abreast safely and legally as shown in the picture.

I've never seen (let alone ridden with) a group of cyclists taking two full lanes in a road to prevent motorists from passing them.  That's pretty bizarre behaviour (it's certainly going to make their bike ride miserable), and it would definately make me upset.  That's on those particular cyclists.

If it's safer to ride in the road than a bike lane, then the city needs to remove the bike lanes until they can be designed properly.  Nobody should be forced into an unsafe situation by bad infrastructure.  Unfortunately, it can be tricky to design good bike lanes.  Sometimes there's a degree of trial and error that needs to be done before they get it right.

Riding on the sidewalk is usually the wrong choice, and certainly should not be encouraged as a general option.

[afox]

ive ridden my bike to work nearly every day for the past 18 years, I have never had an accident or caused one. The only time ive crashed my bike is on ice. IMO, the key to being safe on a bike is what @EngagedToFIRE alluded to: ride like you are invisible to cars unless you have eye to eye contact with a driver. I never "take the lane", I alter my route to ride on roads with bike lanes/shoulders/low traffic, I ride on sidewalks when its safer than riding on the street (rarely but there are places where its much safer to be on a sidewalk). I know my routes/streets really well. I "cut behind drivers" at stop signs unless I have eye to eye acknowledgement that I will be passing in front of a car. There are places that simply are not safe to ride a bike and Id like to see bikes outlawed to keep novice cyclists safe, just like interstates which have "no bikes" signs, some cyclists think the law will keep them safe, they think that just because the law says they can take the lane drivers will obey the law and wait to pass them, that is extremely dangerous behavior and you're handing your fate over to a stranger in a car. I'm not exaggerating at all when I say these are life and death situations.

I NEVER assume that a car is aware of my presence and will alter their trajectory (such as waiting until safe to pass me) to avoid hitting me. The only way I ride is to be in control of my own safety, I cant rely on a stranger in a car to be aware of my presence. Unlike the driver of a 4,000 pound vehicle my life depends on how/where I pilot the bike. I also dont give a shit about laws, if I have to break a law to remain safe I will, although its generally not necessary to break the law to remain safe.   

[honeybbq]

I can't fathom how it's safer to exercise in the middle of the street than on a sidewalk off the street. 

I'll just name the top few off the top of my head:

- better visibility to moving cars in the middle of the road- physically
- ability for oncoming and rear cars to see my lights and blinky flashy reflectors
- roads are typically in better shape than sidewalks
- my speed is closer to a vehicle compared to a pedestrian
- cats, dogs, old people, children, leashes, etc on a sidewalk = accident
- no surprise "pop outs" at the corner of intersections where no one saw me because I was on the sidewalk
- ownership and respect to other vehicles is accomplished by obeying the laws, which means I have the right to the road of there are other issues.
- more trash on the sidewalk and shoulder than in the road
- My personal anecodotes - almost EVERY time I've ever been hit I've been in a bike lane, shoulder, or somewhere off to the side of the road. I have NEVER had an almost-accident taking the lane.

I guess this is fair if the sidewalks around you are full of trash, broken, and you have to deal with time shifting pedestrians who instantly appear in front of you.  That sounds incredibly dangerous.

If you are riding 15 - 20 mph and cars are driving 50 mph, I'm not sure your speed is all that much closer to vehicles than pedestrians... nor are you traveling fast enough on a bike where you can't just, you know, slow down and nicely pass a pedestrian on the sidewalk.  All of your "cats, dogs, pedestrians, children, leashes, trash" on the sidewalk just seems so foreign to me.  Do you live in Vietnam or something?  I would hate to live in your neighborhood or anywhere near it.

"Almost every time I've been hit " - wow... you know how many times I've been hit?  Zero.  Because I'm on the sidewalk.  But I'm glad you have conceded the point that riding on or near the street is really dangerous.

Did you even read what I wrote? I wrote when I'm in the BIKE LANE I almost get hit. When I'm in the ROAD taking the LANE I'm allowed to by LAW I do NOT. Get it?
I live in a regular city filled with people doing people things like texting and walking their 4 dogs at once. Not lala fantasy land like you, apparently.
I'm also not biking on the highway FFS. You just pretend not to be able to read or interject anything you want unless explicitly stated otherwise? Congrats, you win the 'arguing on the internet' award today.

Of course I read what you wrote.  You admitted to getting whacked on your bike more than once, while not riding on the sidewalk.  And you did this in a post about how dangerous it is to ride on a sidewalk.  I couldn't make that up if I tried!  You are arguing it's safer to ride smack in the middle of the road.  I'm saying the road, side of the road, whatever, is probably not a good place to be.  Your own statement kind of proves that, right?  You keep getting hit riding on or near the road... Lol.  So the middle of the road is safe? I even posted a link to a group of cyclists who got whacked riding right smack in the middle of the road because they didn't want to be in the bike lane.  This happened right near me.  It was big news here.  Just like all of the news stories that we get a few times a year of a cyclist getting whacked and killed riding in the road.  It happens all the time.  ALL THE TIME.  Yet not one single story, ever, about a cyclist, pedestrian, or anyone getting whacked and killed on a sidewalk around here.  So tell me how safe the roads are...

I have not been shy about posting links to backup my statements.  The supposed lala fantasy land?  I have posted all sorts of street view maps, city literature, etc. of EXACTLY where I ride.  That's not a fantasy, that's just reality.

It is fantasy. I keep saying bike lane. As in DEDICATED bike lane. You keep saying road. LOL. In Seattle, you are SUPPOSED to ride in the bike lane or the road. NOT in the sidewalk. This is so ridiculous. And NO, I've never been "whacked" I said "almost hit". You are definitely in fantasy land. Riding in the middle of the road is the safest place I've ever ridden, bar none.

[GuitarStv]

I was taught as a kid that if Im using a crosswalk with a bike I need to be walking my bike like a pedestrian. The main issue with people biking on sidewalks is that it is very difficult to see them zooming along at 15mph. Its much easier to see a pedestrian, who generally has stopped for either a crossing signal or to check for traffic in a non lighted crosswalk before entering the crosswalk. When I ride in the street I act like a driver.

Some idiot on campus blew through a crosswalk on a bird scooter and I could have run him over. I don’t think he had any clue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well yeah, this is why I stop at cross walks with my bicycle and never cross without checking traffic in all directions, wait for the cross signal, then carefully cross.  Then near the end of the sidewalk, carefully check for cars turning right who may not see me as other cars often block their view.  It's just kind of common sense...  Anyone who rides reckless, sidewalk or street, is in danger.  It's not limited to either one.  But riding in the street, and this isn't a controversial fact, increases your chances of getting whacked by a car immensely.

So, (as a Lance Armstrong cosplayer who regularly exercises in the middle of the road) I partially agree with you here.  Everyone should ride their bike in a safe manner, and not doing so puts yourself in danger.  However, riding your bike on the sidewalk is less safe than riding on the road.  That's why the research shows that the odds are about two times higher (https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/wachtel.html) that you'll be hit by a car while riding on the sidewalk than on the street.  Motorists are not expecting you to be on the sidewalk moving a bicycle speeds.  Even a leisurely cyclist is doing 2-3 times the speed of a pedestrian.

I've heard the argument "Yeah, but GuitarStv I dismount my bike and slowly walk my bike across every driveway/entrance to a shopping plaza/intersection of any kind!"  If you do this, it makes you the only cyclist I've ever seen in my life who does . . . but more power to you.  In your typical city though, doing this will reduce your cycling speed so much that I'd say you should ditch the bike entirely and just walk.

But the other problem is that while you're cycling on the designated pedestrian area, you are causing a lot of confusion and significantly increasing the risk of hitting a pedestrian (http://www.bike.cornell.edu/pdfs/Sidewalk_biking_FAQ.pdf).  While the lower speed is obviously going to cause a much less damaging accident, risking injury of pedestrians (who are usually confused when there's a cyclist in their way and are unsure what direction the person on a bike will be going) is not a safe action to take.  That's one reason that I dismount and walk my bike when on the sidewalk . . . and ride when on the road.





As far as cyclists breaking the rules of the road . . . it's true.  A great many do.  But this is natural human behaviour - there's nothing unusual at all about riding a bike/lawlessness.  Take a drive on just about any freeway.  You'll notice that probably 90% (or more) of the motorists are driving illegally - by speeding.  Going 1 mph over the limit is breaking the law . . . in exactly the same way that a cyclist blowing a stop sign at a four way stop where there's nobody there is breaking the law.  We are all so used to seeing motorists drive illegally (by speeding, failing to indicate a turn or lane change, tailgating, entering an intersection on a yellow, etc.) that we are kinda blind to how often it happens in cars . . . but since you typically see fewer folks cycling there's a tendency to be more critical of lawbreaking.

Now, before you get angry at a cyclist who slowly rolls through a stop sign where there's no traffic coming, ask yourself how often you've driven with the speed of traffic on a highway - above the speed limit.

I feel I've been pretty thorough explaining where I ride.  I've provided all sorts of literature even explaining how it works here.  We have multi-purpose paths and it's legal to ride on the sidewalk.  I ride 3 - 4 days a week in this area.  I'd say 80% of bicyclists are on the sidewalks.  This isn't unusual or weird for the people around here.  Pedestrians walk on their side and politely let you by, usually with a smile and a little wave.  Families with kids riding bicycles are regular occurrences, too.  Maybe this is a fantasy lala land where everyone just kind of gets along with bicycles and pedestrians on sidewalks at the same time.  I have no idea.  I've never ridden where you do, apparently.  But here, it's almost where you expect to see bicycles and pedestrians are fully aware of that.  It's a total nothing burger.

Arguing more cyclists get hit on sidewalks is utterly ridiculous.  You are really arguing that bicyclists flying in to the intersection from the sidewalk are doing something dangerous.  I totally agree.  Do I walk my bike across?  Of course not.  But I wait for the cross symbol, I look for cars behind me who may be turning, I take my time, then carefully ride across the intersection, then check for potential cars turning right before I cross over that lane.  You guys make this sound like rocket science.  I mean, we are talking about crossing a street.  It's not time consuming.  And when I'm crossing intersections or driveways without a light, I look back to make sure nobody is coming, and I carefully look to make sure nobody is going to hit me coming out of the drive.  I mean, this isn't difficult.  If just riding prudent, it's obviously safe.  But riding in the street, you have no control.  Someone swerves in to your lane or isn't paying attention?  You are done.

So what you are arguing is that there are dumb people who get themselves hit as they enter the road from a sidewalk.  Sure.  Probably right.  I'm arguing that it's much safer to ride on the sidewalk if you are not a fucking moron and actually pay attention, since you can control whether you get hit or not.  Riding in the road, you have no control.  You say a prayer and hope nobody is going to whack you today.  For what it's worth, I ride about 14 miles to work on my favorite route.  I will usually come across a couple bicycles (on the sidewalk and greenways) and maybe 3 - 4 pedestrians.  I'm not in NYC...

My argument about the safety (lack thereof) while cycling on the sidewalk is based upon research that has been done on the matter.  I agree that it's counter intuitive.  I get your confusion.  It took me several years (and two accidents) while cycling on the sidewalk before I started to really understand it as well.  In fact, I used to do the same thing you're advising . . . and it worked to keep me out of harm's way.  Until it didn't.  Turns out you don't need to be a fucking moron to end up in an accident while riding on the sidewalk.  The illusion of control that you get is just that - an illusion. Regardless of how safe you think you're being you are depending on vehicles to see you at all those intersections you're passing.  So far they have.  I hope they continue to do so.

I ride my bike a lot.  5-6,000 kms a year typically.  This includes my commute, taking my bike to visit friends and family out of our city, bikepacking vacations/touring, running errands, the occasional competitive cycling event, and recreational group rides.  I regularly ride in farmland, busy city streets, and residential neighbourhoods.  There are instances where I'd say that riding your bike on the sidewalk is a safer choice to make than using the road - but they are not very common.

I don't care if vehicles see me or not.  Because I see them.  I don't cross in front of a car unless I can visibly see the driver and know that they recognize me and won't be going.  I've stopped and waited because cars of dark tint and I don't know if the driver can see me.  Studies are broad and are based on the moronic general population.  To me, and the way I ride, you are essentially trying to argue it's also exceptionally dangerous for pedestrians to use the sidewalk and cross streets.  I can totally see how flying in to intersections, assuming drivers are seeing you, is dangerous as hell.  Which is why I don't do it.  I'm obnoxiously careful with intersections of all types.  But I do see plenty of people who never look back at possible approaching cars behind them turning right.  I agree, I can see how it can be dangerous.  But that's in MY control and avoidable as I can and do pay attention and ride very carefully.  Riding in the street is out of your control. If it's your time to go because some teenager is texting, then you are done.

There is a reason why all the kids ride on the sidewalks home from school as well.  And it could just be it's safer HERE than in other areas where studies have been done.  If it's more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk, then I'd love to know why the only people getting killed are the ones in the street.  We just live in different places.  I've tried providing a lot of information, images, city literature, etc.  I guess that's just not enough.  It's all good.

But ultimately, my point would be that if someone is out exercising in THIS area, there is simply no need to do it in the middle of the street.  We have hundreds of miles of trails, bike paths, dual purpose paths, velodromes, skate parks, greenways, off and on road, etc. etc. etc.  Endless options to safely exercise on a bicycle without impeding traffic or putting your life in danger.

You appear to have misread me.  While it's very important to be careful and to keep as aware as possible while cycling, you will always depend on the behaviour of motorists.  You should therefore care very much if motorists can see you.  That's why it's a good idea to have lights, bright clothing, and to cycle in a predictable manner.

If you're riding on the sidewalk and approach an intersection (driveway), you check over your left shoulder and see some traffic, but nobody's signalling and nobody's slowing down as if to turn into the driveway you then turn to the right to check the vehicles in the driveway itself to see if any of them are backing up.  At that moment a car can turn into the driveway and hit you.  That's how I got into one of my sidewalk accidents.  But I had also thought I was in full control and my awareness was protecting me until then.  It's a compelling illusion.  I'm hoping that you learn this lesson in a less painful way than going over a windshield.

Little kids riding on a bike with training wheels are typically not going faster than a jogger (and often aren't going faster than a brisk walk).  That changes the whole safety equation quite a bit.  If thus describes the speed that you cycle along at, then yes . . . you're probably safer on the sidewalk.  The majority of adults (even if grossly out of shape) will be much faster on a bicycle.

[Tass]

IMO, the key to being safe on a bike is what @EngagedToFIRE alluded to: ride like you are invisible to cars unless you have eye to eye contact with a driver. I never "take the lane"....

Not taking the lane makes me MORE invisible to cars. In the middle of a lane with lights flashing, I am not harder to spot than the next car in front of them that they also need to not crash into. In my case, it's a short stretch with many traffic lights. A driver is much more likely to clip me if I'm hugging the edge of the road where they are less likely to see me than if I'm smack in the middle of their windshield. Add in the hazards of parked car doors opening and I'd have to be foolish NOT to take the lane. I would rather annoy drivers than not be seen by them in the first place - but again, drivers rarely seem annoyed. Changing lanes to pass cyclists is commonplace.

[EngagedToFIRE]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

I am speaking for where I LIVE.  Not you.  The people riding around here are doing it for exercise.  They are in large groups, and put together big meetups.

https://www.themiamibikescene.com/p/broward-group-rides.html

Funny enough, the picture right on that instagram is them blocking traffic in a large group.  Instead of just riding in the bike lane, the 2nd rider is right smack in the lane of traffic.  How can you pass and give 3 feet?  Why are they not all in the bike lane?   GuitrStv, your post about how it's easy to pass riding 2 wide... look at that picture.  Now imagine this on a 2 lane road where you need to go in to oncoming traffic to pass.  It's not possible.   This is what we deal with all the time.

PoutineLover, almost nobody here bikes as a mode of transportation regularly. That's just not a normal thing here as it's too hot.  The only people that do are the immigrant laborers and they only ride on the sidewalks.  I see them every day on their way to work.  And the single rider in the bike lane isn't annoying anyone.  So even the faster riders, going to work (probably not) or just out exercising, in the bike lane, go for it!  That's not what we are talking about, at all.  The point I've made, clearly, is that it's unnecessary and illegal to ride in the middle of a lane here and it's highly inappropriate for these groups, who are doing nothing more than out exercising, to be disrupting traffic when it's totally unnecessary to do so.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Even the city addresses it:  https://www.westonfl.org/residents/bicycle-traffic-safety/biking-in-weston

An older story but nothing has changed:  https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-2012-05-14-fl-bike-wars-weston-20120513-story.html

Read the whole article to get an idea of what I'm talking about.  It really is a big problem around here.  The cars do "own the road" per the law in this area.  So when bicyclists are aggressive, picking fights with drivers, and riding 6 abreast in vehicle lanes (with a perfectly nice/wide bike lane being ignored) - it causes a lot of problems.

I'm kinda impressed they were able to get six abreast in a lane.  You must have hella wide lanes . . . it's not really wide enough to get more than three (maybe four?) cyclists next to one another here.

Just as an aside . . . riding double file with a group is typically recommended for safety in certain circumstances . . . specifically if the road is not wide enough for a vehicle to pass a cyclist with three feet of room.




It's safer because vehicles passing the group have half length to pass . . . making the overtake shorter, and because vehicles must leave the lane in order to legally pass anyway (3 ft rule) so the amount of road width being taken up by cyclists doesn't matter.

Your images show exactly why there is so much contention, so much road rage.  It may be legal to use the road, but cyclists causing traffic backups and forcing vehicles in to oncoming traffic is obnoxious and rude.

Could you explain to me why riding two abreast (as shown in the pics) in a narrow lane would cause any animosity?  As shown in the picture, it's not possible for a vehicle to pass without leaving the lane when the cyclists are single file.  Riding two abreast means that the motorist is more easily and quickly able to overtake the cyclists.

The only real reason I can see for a motorist to get upset is if their plan is to illegally squeeze by the cyclists rather than leave safe (3 ft +) distance while passing.

Isn't the Camry in the image oncoming traffic?  If you have heavy oncoming traffic (as we do on similar 2 lane roads), it's very difficult to actually pass and you end up with a large backup of vehicles behind the bicycles.  And around here, we get groups of 30+ bicycles doing this.  So even 2 abreast, that group is 4X longer.  It's nearly impossible to pass.  And they ride in an area with traffic averaging around 50mph on a road like this.  So everyone sits behind them at 15mph, big backup of cars.  When you do want to pass, you have to accelerate heavily as oncoming traffic is pretty consistent and traveling at a high rate of speed.  So you have to try and squeeze by quickly.  Which also makes it dangerous for the bicyclists as people are aggressively and desperately trying to pass and get back over without a head on collision. And they do this while a bicycle path is 15 feet away out of the street but they are just too important to use the bicycle path.  I'm not sure where you live, so it may be hard to understand how it is around here.  Maybe traffic just isn't that bad on streets like this where you are.

Anyways, I wanted to find a good example, where I've been stopped up by bicycles countless times, and funny enough, a nice responsible cyclist is on the sidewalk where they should be in the streetview:  https://www.google.com/maps/@26.0689605,-80.3540261,3a,75y,165.23h,70.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0buFQyKfms7adshzxW-bMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It's not only a illegal and dangerous to pass, but the traffic is normally pretty consistent.  This is a light day when streetview was there and there is still a pretty consistent volume of cars, coming at you at 50mph on this road.  Imagine trying to pass a group of 20 - 30 bicycles?  Even when you get a single douchebag blocking up traffic it causes a huge problem here and difficult to pass.  A group?  It's a disaster and you have to basically just wait it out.  You asked why that causes animosity... disrupting peoples commutes and blocking traffic will naturally piss people off.  That shouldn't be surprising.

And this is probably the #1 area where people get furious:  https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1017619,-80.4164646,3a,60y,163.62h,81.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2x3w1deS-qOivSB7zCcXXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The road has no passing for essentially the entire length.  Miles.  A bike lane on the right.  And yet the groups will take the full lane (illegally).  This is much closer to where I live and the sidewalk is excellent here though there is a perfectly fine bike lane.  You know just as well as I do why they take the full lane.  Because as you all keep pointing out, it's safer to be in the lane than in the shoulder/bike lane.  So they put themselves ahead of everyone else, block up traffic, and disrupt countless drivers.  It's selfish.  If you don't want to ride in the bike lane, then don't ride HERE.  And again, you asked why the animosity between drivers and bicyclists?  This is why.  It's become a huge problem as on the weekends, we get hundreds of bicyclists all over our small city blocking up the roads.  Our city is so bike friendly and awesome, that it has become a hot spot.  And while most of the daily/evening riders are in the bike lanes and on the sidewalks, the groups that come are disastrous.  Even on 4 lane roads, they will often take both of the right lanes.  It's not cool.

Ok.  So you seem to have no problem with cyclists riding two abreast safely and legally as shown in the picture.

I've never seen (let alone ridden with) a group of cyclists taking two full lanes in a road to prevent motorists from passing them.  That's pretty bizarre behaviour (it's certainly going to make their bike ride miserable), and it would definately make me upset.  That's on those particular cyclists.

If it's safer to ride in the road than a bike lane, then the city needs to remove the bike lanes until they can be designed properly.  Nobody should be forced into an unsafe situation by bad infrastructure.  Unfortunately, it can be tricky to design good bike lanes.  Sometimes there's a degree of trial and error that needs to be done before they get it right.

Riding on the sidewalk is usually the wrong choice, and certainly should not be encouraged as a general option.

I just posted a link to cyclists taking the lane and preventing motorists from passing, in a large group.  This is what we have all the time where I live.  Taking the lane on a 4 lane road (2 lanes in both directions) - I don't think anyone really cares.  As for when they take both lanes, it's generally coming up to intersections and red lights.  Then they take their sweet time getting back in to one lane.  So it's probably not as bad as I've suggested.  But we do see it and sometimes they'll take both lanes well before the intersection as well.  I deactivated facebook, but you got me considering going back on just to find some pictures in our local group!  I'll post a bunch in another post... you can see EXACTLY what I'm talking about to explain the situation here.  There are hundreds, I'll grab a few of the screen shots and posts.

[Raenia]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

I am speaking for where I LIVE.  Not you.  The people riding around here are doing it for exercise.  They are in large groups, and put together big meetups.

https://www.themiamibikescene.com/p/broward-group-rides.html

Funny enough, the picture right on that instagram is them blocking traffic in a large group.  Instead of just riding in the bike lane, the 2nd rider is right smack in the lane of traffic.  How can you pass and give 3 feet?  Why are they not all in the bike lane?   GuitrStv, your post about how it's easy to pass riding 2 wide... look at that picture.  Now imagine this on a 2 lane road where you need to go in to oncoming traffic to pass.  It's not possible.   This is what we deal with all the time.

PoutineLover, almost nobody here bikes as a mode of transportation regularly. That's just not a normal thing here as it's too hot.  The only people that do are the immigrant laborers and they only ride on the sidewalks.  I see them every day on their way to work.  And the single rider in the bike lane isn't annoying anyone.  So even the faster riders, going to work (probably not) or just out exercising, in the bike lane, go for it!  That's not what we are talking about, at all.  The point I've made, clearly, is that it's unnecessary and illegal to ride in the middle of a lane here and it's highly inappropriate for these groups, who are doing nothing more than out exercising, to be disrupting traffic when it's totally unnecessary to do so.

Perhaps if you would stop writing your posts in a way that generalizes the way biking is in your locality to the general case, you would have more agreement.  But you seem intent on insisting that your way is better and more valid than other ways, even though the laws and situation in your location are the exception rather than the rule.

Sure, maybe in your specific location, riding on the sidewalk is legal and safe, and therefore preferable to riding in the road, which is illegal and unsafe.  But you need to acknowledge that in MOST places, the reverse is true.  Your location is an anomaly.

[EngagedToFIRE]

I was taught as a kid that if Im using a crosswalk with a bike I need to be walking my bike like a pedestrian. The main issue with people biking on sidewalks is that it is very difficult to see them zooming along at 15mph. Its much easier to see a pedestrian, who generally has stopped for either a crossing signal or to check for traffic in a non lighted crosswalk before entering the crosswalk. When I ride in the street I act like a driver.

Some idiot on campus blew through a crosswalk on a bird scooter and I could have run him over. I don’t think he had any clue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well yeah, this is why I stop at cross walks with my bicycle and never cross without checking traffic in all directions, wait for the cross signal, then carefully cross.  Then near the end of the sidewalk, carefully check for cars turning right who may not see me as other cars often block their view.  It's just kind of common sense...  Anyone who rides reckless, sidewalk or street, is in danger.  It's not limited to either one.  But riding in the street, and this isn't a controversial fact, increases your chances of getting whacked by a car immensely.

So, (as a Lance Armstrong cosplayer who regularly exercises in the middle of the road) I partially agree with you here.  Everyone should ride their bike in a safe manner, and not doing so puts yourself in danger.  However, riding your bike on the sidewalk is less safe than riding on the road.  That's why the research shows that the odds are about two times higher (https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/wachtel.html) that you'll be hit by a car while riding on the sidewalk than on the street.  Motorists are not expecting you to be on the sidewalk moving a bicycle speeds.  Even a leisurely cyclist is doing 2-3 times the speed of a pedestrian.

I've heard the argument "Yeah, but GuitarStv I dismount my bike and slowly walk my bike across every driveway/entrance to a shopping plaza/intersection of any kind!"  If you do this, it makes you the only cyclist I've ever seen in my life who does . . . but more power to you.  In your typical city though, doing this will reduce your cycling speed so much that I'd say you should ditch the bike entirely and just walk.

But the other problem is that while you're cycling on the designated pedestrian area, you are causing a lot of confusion and significantly increasing the risk of hitting a pedestrian (http://www.bike.cornell.edu/pdfs/Sidewalk_biking_FAQ.pdf).  While the lower speed is obviously going to cause a much less damaging accident, risking injury of pedestrians (who are usually confused when there's a cyclist in their way and are unsure what direction the person on a bike will be going) is not a safe action to take.  That's one reason that I dismount and walk my bike when on the sidewalk . . . and ride when on the road.





As far as cyclists breaking the rules of the road . . . it's true.  A great many do.  But this is natural human behaviour - there's nothing unusual at all about riding a bike/lawlessness.  Take a drive on just about any freeway.  You'll notice that probably 90% (or more) of the motorists are driving illegally - by speeding.  Going 1 mph over the limit is breaking the law . . . in exactly the same way that a cyclist blowing a stop sign at a four way stop where there's nobody there is breaking the law.  We are all so used to seeing motorists drive illegally (by speeding, failing to indicate a turn or lane change, tailgating, entering an intersection on a yellow, etc.) that we are kinda blind to how often it happens in cars . . . but since you typically see fewer folks cycling there's a tendency to be more critical of lawbreaking.

Now, before you get angry at a cyclist who slowly rolls through a stop sign where there's no traffic coming, ask yourself how often you've driven with the speed of traffic on a highway - above the speed limit.

I feel I've been pretty thorough explaining where I ride.  I've provided all sorts of literature even explaining how it works here.  We have multi-purpose paths and it's legal to ride on the sidewalk.  I ride 3 - 4 days a week in this area.  I'd say 80% of bicyclists are on the sidewalks.  This isn't unusual or weird for the people around here.  Pedestrians walk on their side and politely let you by, usually with a smile and a little wave.  Families with kids riding bicycles are regular occurrences, too.  Maybe this is a fantasy lala land where everyone just kind of gets along with bicycles and pedestrians on sidewalks at the same time.  I have no idea.  I've never ridden where you do, apparently.  But here, it's almost where you expect to see bicycles and pedestrians are fully aware of that.  It's a total nothing burger.

Arguing more cyclists get hit on sidewalks is utterly ridiculous.  You are really arguing that bicyclists flying in to the intersection from the sidewalk are doing something dangerous.  I totally agree.  Do I walk my bike across?  Of course not.  But I wait for the cross symbol, I look for cars behind me who may be turning, I take my time, then carefully ride across the intersection, then check for potential cars turning right before I cross over that lane.  You guys make this sound like rocket science.  I mean, we are talking about crossing a street.  It's not time consuming.  And when I'm crossing intersections or driveways without a light, I look back to make sure nobody is coming, and I carefully look to make sure nobody is going to hit me coming out of the drive.  I mean, this isn't difficult.  If just riding prudent, it's obviously safe.  But riding in the street, you have no control.  Someone swerves in to your lane or isn't paying attention?  You are done.

So what you are arguing is that there are dumb people who get themselves hit as they enter the road from a sidewalk.  Sure.  Probably right.  I'm arguing that it's much safer to ride on the sidewalk if you are not a fucking moron and actually pay attention, since you can control whether you get hit or not.  Riding in the road, you have no control.  You say a prayer and hope nobody is going to whack you today.  For what it's worth, I ride about 14 miles to work on my favorite route.  I will usually come across a couple bicycles (on the sidewalk and greenways) and maybe 3 - 4 pedestrians.  I'm not in NYC...

My argument about the safety (lack thereof) while cycling on the sidewalk is based upon research that has been done on the matter.  I agree that it's counter intuitive.  I get your confusion.  It took me several years (and two accidents) while cycling on the sidewalk before I started to really understand it as well.  In fact, I used to do the same thing you're advising . . . and it worked to keep me out of harm's way.  Until it didn't.  Turns out you don't need to be a fucking moron to end up in an accident while riding on the sidewalk.  The illusion of control that you get is just that - an illusion. Regardless of how safe you think you're being you are depending on vehicles to see you at all those intersections you're passing.  So far they have.  I hope they continue to do so.

I ride my bike a lot.  5-6,000 kms a year typically.  This includes my commute, taking my bike to visit friends and family out of our city, bikepacking vacations/touring, running errands, the occasional competitive cycling event, and recreational group rides.  I regularly ride in farmland, busy city streets, and residential neighbourhoods.  There are instances where I'd say that riding your bike on the sidewalk is a safer choice to make than using the road - but they are not very common.

I don't care if vehicles see me or not.  Because I see them.  I don't cross in front of a car unless I can visibly see the driver and know that they recognize me and won't be going.  I've stopped and waited because cars of dark tint and I don't know if the driver can see me.  Studies are broad and are based on the moronic general population.  To me, and the way I ride, you are essentially trying to argue it's also exceptionally dangerous for pedestrians to use the sidewalk and cross streets.  I can totally see how flying in to intersections, assuming drivers are seeing you, is dangerous as hell.  Which is why I don't do it.  I'm obnoxiously careful with intersections of all types.  But I do see plenty of people who never look back at possible approaching cars behind them turning right.  I agree, I can see how it can be dangerous.  But that's in MY control and avoidable as I can and do pay attention and ride very carefully.  Riding in the street is out of your control. If it's your time to go because some teenager is texting, then you are done.

There is a reason why all the kids ride on the sidewalks home from school as well.  And it could just be it's safer HERE than in other areas where studies have been done.  If it's more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk, then I'd love to know why the only people getting killed are the ones in the street.  We just live in different places.  I've tried providing a lot of information, images, city literature, etc.  I guess that's just not enough.  It's all good.

But ultimately, my point would be that if someone is out exercising in THIS area, there is simply no need to do it in the middle of the street.  We have hundreds of miles of trails, bike paths, dual purpose paths, velodromes, skate parks, greenways, off and on road, etc. etc. etc.  Endless options to safely exercise on a bicycle without impeding traffic or putting your life in danger.

You appear to have misread me.  While it's very important to be careful and to keep as aware as possible while cycling, you will always depend on the behaviour of motorists.  You should therefore care very much if motorists can see you.  That's why it's a good idea to have lights, bright clothing, and to cycle in a predictable manner.

If you're riding on the sidewalk and approach an intersection (driveway), you check over your left shoulder and see some traffic, but nobody's signalling and nobody's slowing down as if to turn into the driveway you then turn to the right to check the vehicles in the driveway itself to see if any of them are backing up.  At that moment a car can turn into the driveway and hit you.  That's how I got into one of my sidewalk accidents.  But I had also thought I was in full control and my awareness was protecting me until then.  It's a compelling illusion.  I'm hoping that you learn this lesson in a less painful way than going over a windshield.

Little kids riding on a bike with training wheels are typically not going faster than a jogger (and often aren't going faster than a brisk walk).  That changes the whole safety equation quite a bit.  If thus describes the speed that you cycle along at, then yes . . . you're probably safer on the sidewalk.  The majority of adults (even if grossly out of shape) will be much faster on a bicycle.

What are you thoughts on this.  And mind you, this is pretty much every day here.  The picture where the large group is taking both lanes, FYI, that's on a major HIGHWAY.  They just don't care.  They do it all the time.
























A video of probably the best group riding.  Mostly pretty good.  We have much slower, shitty groups though.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqTFT_oh0bM

Note around 10min in where they take the full lane or ride in the lane.  At 15 min they take both lanes including oncoming traffic, then at 15:30 blow through a stop sign entering a major highway (US-27).  At 20:12 - they are riding the center line, large trucks flying by (who obviously slowed down as the speed is 70+mph on this road).  I couldn't think of a more ridiculous and dangerous place to exercise.  This is the same highway where that group in the picture above is taking both lanes.

[EngagedToFIRE]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

I am speaking for where I LIVE.  Not you.  The people riding around here are doing it for exercise.  They are in large groups, and put together big meetups.

https://www.themiamibikescene.com/p/broward-group-rides.html

Funny enough, the picture right on that instagram is them blocking traffic in a large group.  Instead of just riding in the bike lane, the 2nd rider is right smack in the lane of traffic.  How can you pass and give 3 feet?  Why are they not all in the bike lane?   GuitrStv, your post about how it's easy to pass riding 2 wide... look at that picture.  Now imagine this on a 2 lane road where you need to go in to oncoming traffic to pass.  It's not possible.   This is what we deal with all the time.

PoutineLover, almost nobody here bikes as a mode of transportation regularly. That's just not a normal thing here as it's too hot.  The only people that do are the immigrant laborers and they only ride on the sidewalks.  I see them every day on their way to work.  And the single rider in the bike lane isn't annoying anyone.  So even the faster riders, going to work (probably not) or just out exercising, in the bike lane, go for it!  That's not what we are talking about, at all.  The point I've made, clearly, is that it's unnecessary and illegal to ride in the middle of a lane here and it's highly inappropriate for these groups, who are doing nothing more than out exercising, to be disrupting traffic when it's totally unnecessary to do so.

Perhaps if you would stop writing your posts in a way that generalizes the way biking is in your locality to the general case, you would have more agreement.  But you seem intent on insisting that your way is better and more valid than other ways, even though the laws and situation in your location are the exception rather than the rule.

Sure, maybe in your specific location, riding on the sidewalk is legal and safe, and therefore preferable to riding in the road, which is illegal and unsafe.  But you need to acknowledge that in MOST places, the reverse is true.  Your location is an anomaly.

I honestly feel I've said exactly this.  And I apologize if I have done a poor job communicating that.

[afox]

IMO, the key to being safe on a bike is what @EngagedToFIRE alluded to: ride like you are invisible to cars unless you have eye to eye contact with a driver. I never "take the lane"....

Not taking the lane makes me MORE invisible to cars. In the middle of a lane with lights flashing, I am not harder to spot than the next car in front of them that they also need to not crash into. In my case, it's a short stretch with many traffic lights. A driver is much more likely to clip me if I'm hugging the edge of the road where they are less likely to see me than if I'm smack in the middle of their windshield. Add in the hazards of parked car doors opening and I'd have to be foolish NOT to take the lane. I would rather annoy drivers than not be seen by them in the first place - but again, drivers rarely seem annoyed. Changing lanes to pass cyclists is commonplace.

Your example  of a road where the option is to either "take the lane" or "hug the edge of the road" is a road that I would definitely not bike on! Luckily I live in a city where there is always an alternate route with bike lanes or good shoulders nearby. If I didnt, frankly I would not ride. Riding is fun, thrifty, and great exercise but its not worth my life. Your example would be a road with no shoulder or bike lane. I dont ride on those roads. When you take the lane all that separates your life from death is a driver that's not watching the road because they are playing on their phone or a driver that is fed up with cyclists and just wants to run you over and murder you. I know taking the lane is legal but I dont think its safe.

[Raenia]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

I am speaking for where I LIVE.  Not you.  The people riding around here are doing it for exercise.  They are in large groups, and put together big meetups.

https://www.themiamibikescene.com/p/broward-group-rides.html

Funny enough, the picture right on that instagram is them blocking traffic in a large group.  Instead of just riding in the bike lane, the 2nd rider is right smack in the lane of traffic.  How can you pass and give 3 feet?  Why are they not all in the bike lane?   GuitrStv, your post about how it's easy to pass riding 2 wide... look at that picture.  Now imagine this on a 2 lane road where you need to go in to oncoming traffic to pass.  It's not possible.   This is what we deal with all the time.

PoutineLover, almost nobody here bikes as a mode of transportation regularly. That's just not a normal thing here as it's too hot.  The only people that do are the immigrant laborers and they only ride on the sidewalks.  I see them every day on their way to work.  And the single rider in the bike lane isn't annoying anyone.  So even the faster riders, going to work (probably not) or just out exercising, in the bike lane, go for it!  That's not what we are talking about, at all.  The point I've made, clearly, is that it's unnecessary and illegal to ride in the middle of a lane here and it's highly inappropriate for these groups, who are doing nothing more than out exercising, to be disrupting traffic when it's totally unnecessary to do so.

Perhaps if you would stop writing your posts in a way that generalizes the way biking is in your locality to the general case, you would have more agreement.  But you seem intent on insisting that your way is better and more valid than other ways, even though the laws and situation in your location are the exception rather than the rule.

Sure, maybe in your specific location, riding on the sidewalk is legal and safe, and therefore preferable to riding in the road, which is illegal and unsafe.  But you need to acknowledge that in MOST places, the reverse is true.  Your location is an anomaly.

I honestly feel I've said exactly this.  And I apologize if I have done a poor job communicating that.

The problem is that when other people try to talk about what is safe in MOST places, you keep jumping in and arguing with them.  Just accept that where you are is not typical, and the behavior that you want to see there is not legal in other places.

[mm1970]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

This is what I wanted to come here to say.  Granted, I don't bike to work often anymore.

But also, I looked at those pictures, and MANY of them are fine.  In a road that does not have a bike lane, I always "take the lane".  There's a section on my ride to work (when I used to ride to work) that is on city streets, with parked cars, a shared bike/car lane, a second car lane, then a double yellow and repeat going the rest of the way.

I always take the lane there.  If there is no bike lane, take the lane.  If there is space at a side street, road, stop sign, then let any cars behind you pass.

[EngagedToFIRE]

@EngagedToFIRE I think you need to adjust your language. Driving a bike in the street is not just "exercise", it's a legal mode of transportation. Bikers have rights, and you insisting on calling it exercise to make it seem like we have less right to the road is bullshit. Good for you, you live in a place where bikes are allowed in sidewalks. The vast majority of people don't. A bike is my main mode of transportation, and I have to ride on roads, where I have a legal right to be and the right to not be killed by idiot drivers while doing so. If course I'm going to be as safe and responsible as I can, but I'm not at fault if someone breaks the law and "whacks" me

This is what I wanted to come here to say.  Granted, I don't bike to work often anymore.

But also, I looked at those pictures, and MANY of them are fine.  In a road that does not have a bike lane, I always "take the lane".  There's a section on my ride to work (when I used to ride to work) that is on city streets, with parked cars, a shared bike/car lane, a second car lane, then a double yellow and repeat going the rest of the way.

I always take the lane there.  If there is no bike lane, take the lane.  If there is space at a side street, road, stop sign, then let any cars behind you pass.

There is ONE picture where a guy took the lane because there is no bike lane (even though there is a nice sidewalk). 

[erutio]

Responses in bold.

snip..

White van driving or stopping illegally in bike lane, I think we can all agree on this here.
Night picture too blurry to make out, but if it's a group of night riders, with lights on, should be no problem
Riding on major highway is illegal in most places.  If this was not a highway, this would be legal, but they are assholes.

Again, illegal to be riding on major highway

This is blatant, and dangerous, disregard of traffic laws by the biker. I think we can all agree on this.

Legal riding, though asshol-ish.  But they are certainly in their right to ride like this.  Anger shouldn't be directed at the bicyclists, rather, use that energy to advocate for better biking infrastructure.


Again, legal riding.

  Seems like a dick move here by the group. Though not illegal.

Are the bikers riding through on the red?  While illegal, many do this, the idea being there is not cross traffic due to the T intersection.  I will sometimes do this if no cars turning left into my late, but won't if there are cars turning at all. 



Of all the pictures, this one may be most applicable to the discussion.  He is in his legal right to ride here, and in fact, there is nowhere else for him to ride.  Unfortunately, the driver cannot pass either, so the driver has to wait. 

[EngagedToFIRE]

Responses in bold.

snip..

White van driving or stopping illegally in bike lane, I think we can all agree on this here.
Night picture too blurry to make out, but if it's a group of night riders, with lights on, should be no problem
Riding on major highway is illegal in most places.  If this was not a highway, this would be legal, but they are assholes.

Again, illegal to be riding on major highway

This is blatant, and dangerous, disregard of traffic laws by the biker. I think we can all agree on this.

Legal riding, though asshol-ish.  But they are certainly in their right to ride like this.  Anger shouldn't be directed at the bicyclists, rather, use that energy to advocate for better biking infrastructure.


Again, legal riding.

  Seems like a dick move here by the group. Though not illegal.

Are the bikers riding through on the red?  While illegal, many do this, the idea being there is not cross traffic due to the T intersection.  I will sometimes do this if no cars turning left into my late, but won't if there are cars turning at all. 



Of all the pictures, this one may be most applicable to the discussion.  He is in his legal right to ride here, and in fact, there is nowhere else for him to ride.  Unfortunately, the driver cannot pass either, so the driver has to wait. 

It's not legal for the bicyclists to ride 2 abreast and disrupt traffic when there is a bike lane there.  They must be in the bike lane.  Further up this discussion I posted a link to bicyclists getting angry because the police started citing them for this.   So the night riders, they are IN the lane and not the bike lane, disrupting traffic.  That is the problem.  And that's many of them.  So where you keep saying it's legal, it's actually not.  And this is by FAR the most common issue we have with the bicyclists.  They ride 2 or 3 abreast taking the bike lane AND the traffic lane.  You probably didn't catch the comments, but it's "Post Rd", "Post Rd", "Post Rd".... Post Rd is a double line road with curves, you can't pass.  So when the bicyclists take the lane like this, you can't legally pass them as you can't cross the line in to the other lane and there isn't enough space to give 3 feet.  It's a dick way to ride by the cyclists and the road is miles long... and it's illegal for the cyclists to take the lane when there is a bike lane.  But they do it ALL the time.  Every day.

It's only illegal to ride on an interstate highway, so the highway riders are actually not breaking the law.  It's just kind of, dumb.  And multiple bicyclists have been killed in these spots on the highways.  But you said if not a highway it would be legal.  It's not legal for them to take both lanes, actually.  So just more law breaking.

Yes, the group of bicyclists did blow through a red light at a VERY high rate of speed, they were flying in the video.  In the cyclists defense, they are in a bike lane at a T intersection, and no car should be turning left and in to the bike lane.  But we are talking "legal" on this thread!  I am trying to be fair which is why I posted the one of the moron driver cruising in the bike lane.  Which is why I do NOT ride in bike lanes around here and use the sidewalks.

The last one is probably the most relevant as you said, though I'd argue the riders 2 abreast in the bike lane is just as relevant (talking about breaking the law).  You mentioned there is nowhere else for him to ride, and technically he can ride on the sidewalk, legally.  I'm not sure that specific spot, but I can tell you in the video he's riding very slow.  And it's likely he will end up in an area with a bike lane pretty soon.  So we could argue all day, he can legally ride there, yes.  But I would say he should probably just use the sidewalk and not be an asshole until he gets to the road with the bike lane.

[erutio]

I just read the weston laws, and I have to agree with you, the laws in your municipality are worded poorly and not particularly well thought out.  But it seems like Weston is the exception here, compared to other municipalities.  But if they want to really become an ideal biker's community like they say, they should change the local laws and build the real infrastructure to support biking. 

[EngagedToFIRE]

I just read the weston laws, and I have to agree with you, the laws in your municipality are worded poorly and not particularly well thought out.  But it seems like Weston is the exception here, compared to other municipalities.  But if they want to really become an ideal biker's community like they say, they should change the local laws and build the real infrastructure to support biking.

What more infrastructure is needed?  We have multi-use paths and bike lanes covering nearly the entire city.  You can bike in the bike lane or on the paths/sidewalks and people use both all the time.  Just next to Weston, we have all sorts of biking paths, greenways, mountain biking, etc. etc. etc.  What more infrastructure do we need?  What we need is for bicyclists to just use the bike lanes and paths and not block traffic.  This would essentially solve the issue and animosity.  As mentioned, a good portion of the pictures above are the cyclists taking over the bike lane AND the vehicle/traffic lane.  That's just being an asshole (and illegal).  But it happens every day, all the time.  And you can see the frustration from the residents because of it.  It's a heated topic, constantly, and it doesn't need to be.  If the cyclists would just respect the law and drivers, we could all get along just fine.

I'm about to head out for a ride, actually!  Along the beautiful paths through the parks in Davie across the way.  I'll do about 20 miles and never have any need to ride in the street and about 18 miles will be on multi use paths (not sidewalks).

[Raenia]

I just read the weston laws, and I have to agree with you, the laws in your municipality are worded poorly and not particularly well thought out.  But it seems like Weston is the exception here, compared to other municipalities.  But if they want to really become an ideal biker's community like they say, they should change the local laws and build the real infrastructure to support biking.

What more infrastructure is needed?  We have multi-use paths and bike lanes covering nearly the entire city.  You can bike in the bike lane or on the paths/sidewalks and people use both all the time.  Just next to Weston, we have all sorts of biking paths, greenways, mountain biking, etc. etc. etc.  What more infrastructure do we need?  What we need is for bicyclists to just use the bike lanes and paths and not block traffic.  This would essentially solve the issue and animosity.  As mentioned, a good portion of the pictures above are the cyclists taking over the bike lane AND the vehicle/traffic lane.  That's just being an asshole (and illegal).  But it happens every day, all the time.  And you can see the frustration from the residents because of it.  It's a heated topic, constantly, and it doesn't need to be.  If the cyclists would just respect the law and drivers, we could all get along just fine.

I'm about to head out for a ride, actually!

The bike lanes in those pictures, where present, appear to be barely wide enough for one cyclist to ride comfortably, not nearly wide enough for two side-by-side.  The sidewalks appear to be similar width, where I can see them.  As someone mentioned above, for a multi-use path like a sidewalk, you need about 10 feet wide.  For a bike lane on a road, it should be 5-6 feet wide, and be clearly separated  (with a barrier, not just a line) from the road, to prevent cars driving into it.

[Tass]

IMO, the key to being safe on a bike is what @EngagedToFIRE alluded to: ride like you are invisible to cars unless you have eye to eye contact with a driver. I never "take the lane"....

Not taking the lane makes me MORE invisible to cars. In the middle of a lane with lights flashing, I am not harder to spot than the next car in front of them that they also need to not crash into. In my case, it's a short stretch with many traffic lights. A driver is much more likely to clip me if I'm hugging the edge of the road where they are less likely to see me than if I'm smack in the middle of their windshield. Add in the hazards of parked car doors opening and I'd have to be foolish NOT to take the lane. I would rather annoy drivers than not be seen by them in the first place - but again, drivers rarely seem annoyed. Changing lanes to pass cyclists is commonplace.

Your example  of a road where the option is to either "take the lane" or "hug the edge of the road" is a road that I would definitely not bike on! Luckily I live in a city where there is always an alternate route with bike lanes or good shoulders nearby. If I didnt, frankly I would not ride. Riding is fun, thrifty, and great exercise but its not worth my life. Your example would be a road with no shoulder or bike lane. I dont ride on those roads. When you take the lane all that separates your life from death is a driver that's not watching the road because they are playing on their phone or a driver that is fed up with cyclists and just wants to run you over and murder you. I know taking the lane is legal but I dont think its safe.

I mean, all safety is relative, but I don't think taking the lane is particularly unsafe. One driver playing with their phone could also end my life while I'm driving or walking, but I don't let that small but real possibility make me into a hermit. My apartment complex is on a road with no bike lane and cars parked on the shoulder, so if I'm not willing to ride on it a bit, I can't ride at all. (There is a sidewalk, but sidewalks are MORE dangerous to bike on, as has been discussed by others at length.) This area has a lot of cyclists (many well-behaved, some confused college students) and wide roads, and cars are generally polite about going around - usually they are MORE polite when I have taken the lane and made it clear that it is my space, whereas if I hug the edge they are more likely to pass too close to me. I take this road a short ways and then turn onto roads with bike lanes and head toward a college campus without car traffic.

While convenience is secondary to safety, riding on the road and using the infrastructure intended for left turns is often faster and easier than waiting for two crosswalks.

[EngagedToFIRE]

I just read the weston laws, and I have to agree with you, the laws in your municipality are worded poorly and not particularly well thought out.  But it seems like Weston is the exception here, compared to other municipalities.  But if they want to really become an ideal biker's community like they say, they should change the local laws and build the real infrastructure to support biking.

What more infrastructure is needed?  We have multi-use paths and bike lanes covering nearly the entire city.  You can bike in the bike lane or on the paths/sidewalks and people use both all the time.  Just next to Weston, we have all sorts of biking paths, greenways, mountain biking, etc. etc. etc.  What more infrastructure do we need?  What we need is for bicyclists to just use the bike lanes and paths and not block traffic.  This would essentially solve the issue and animosity.  As mentioned, a good portion of the pictures above are the cyclists taking over the bike lane AND the vehicle/traffic lane.  That's just being an asshole (and illegal).  But it happens every day, all the time.  And you can see the frustration from the residents because of it.  It's a heated topic, constantly, and it doesn't need to be.  If the cyclists would just respect the law and drivers, we could all get along just fine.

I'm about to head out for a ride, actually!

The bike lanes in those pictures, where present, appear to be barely wide enough for one cyclist to ride comfortably, not nearly wide enough for two side-by-side.  The sidewalks appear to be similar width, where I can see them.  As someone mentioned above, for a multi-use path like a sidewalk, you need about 10 feet wide.  For a bike lane on a road, it should be 5-6 feet wide, and be clearly separated  (with a barrier, not just a line) from the road, to prevent cars driving into it.

I would like a barrier, that's the big thing that would have me riding in the bike lanes.  I'll give you that.  I really wish we had actual separated lanes around here with a curb as separation.  That would be amazing!

Cyclist don't NEED to ride 2 wide.  It's their responsibility to stay in the bike lane and not impede traffic.  The law is clear about that and it make sense. The lane is way more than wide enough to ride comfortably if you want to use it.  But you cannot ride 2 wide and be out in the lane of traffic.  As for the sidewalks, they are not designed for road racers, obviously, but for your average person out riding a non-racing bike, the sidewalks are more than wide enough and perfectly adequate.  The problem that you guys keep implying, it simply doesn't exist and I ride all the time here.  People even ride 2 wide on the sidewalks often.  It's a total non issue, everyone is polite and moves out of the way and coexists just fine.  Pedestrians treat the sidewalks and paths like a road, they will stay to the right.  So when passing, you give them an audible "on your left" and cruise on by.  Anyone who isn't doing that, you just slow down, let them know you are there, they will smile and hop out of the way.  It's a really nice place to ride.

[therethere]

Eh, personally I think barriers are overrated and less safe than regular bike lanes. We have some bike lanes separated by road parking for a barrier. When people are parked, especially SUV's, it's impossible to see people biking from the driving lane. Everyday on my way home I see a scooter or a bike almost get nailed by cars turning right that can't see them until last second.

[Raenia]

Eh, personally I think barriers are overrated and less safe than regular bike lanes. We have some bike lanes separated by road parking for a barrier. When people are parked, especially SUV's, it's impossible to see people biking from the driving lane. Everyday on my way home I see a scooter or a bike almost get nailed by cars turning right that can't see them until last second.

Barriers are typically useful on roads that don't allow street parking.  Which includes all the roads EngagedtoFire posted in his(?) pictures.

[fuzzy math]

Canadians, if you have never visited FL, you may be both unaware of how F***ed up Florida infrastructure is, and how many Florida Men there are out on the roads at any given time. If I lived there, I would never bike near a single road.

And nothing gets me as hot and bothered as being quoted 42 times in a pissing match.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Eh, personally I think barriers are overrated and less safe than regular bike lanes. We have some bike lanes separated by road parking for a barrier. When people are parked, especially SUV's, it's impossible to see people biking from the driving lane. Everyday on my way home I see a scooter or a bike almost get nailed by cars turning right that can't see them until last second.

Barriers are typically useful on roads that don't allow street parking.  Which includes all the roads EngagedtoFire posted in his(?) pictures.

Correct.  I'm thinking of a barrier like a simple curb and we have no street parking here other than the lanes are used for parents to pull over to the side and form lines when picking up kids from school - which couldn't happen with barriers either.  I think one issue with that is then you have no shoulder for cars to pull off in an emergency or to allow emergency vehicles to pass.  So I'm not sure it would even be possible to do that here, unfortunately.  At least not on the 2 lane roads.  But yeah, it would be amazing if we could figure that out here, at least on the 4 lane roads, and put little curb barriers in.  But probably won't ever happen.  Another option, which seems more likely, is to paint the bike lane green, which seems to be getting more and more popular.  I'm sure there are studies that show this to be safer for visibility.

[fuzzy math]

These are the people operating motorized vehicles in FL

[EngagedToFIRE]

Canadians, if you have never visited FL, you may be both unaware of how F***ed up Florida infrastructure is, and how many Florida Men there are out on the roads at any given time. If I lived there, I would never bike near a single road.

And nothing gets me as hot and bothered as being quoted 42 times in a pissing match.

Florida Man out on the roads, yes (why I don't ride in the street).  Infrastructure?  I'd have to disagree.  We have great roads and infrastructure in general.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Here is a couple winners just on my way to work this morning!  I would say I see this pretty much each direction, to and from work, every single day.  But yeah, way safer riding in the bike lane than on the big, empty, wide, well maintained sidewalk next to it.  Getting my head taken off by that trucks mirror is just a minor inconvenience :)

Maybe the drivers just aren't as retarded where you all live?  I didn't see in the truck, but the driver of the car had her head down doing something on her phone.  Truck was probably the same.  Speeds 55 - 60mph on this road.  Would you guys really be riding right in the middle of the lane here?  I do see the road racer type bicyclists in that bike lane, as crazy as they are.  But outside of the large groups, I've never once seen a bicyclist right smack in the middle of the right lane.

Drivers suck.  Be careful.  My ride yesterday was 22 miles and virtually all of it on nice multi-use paths away from these maniacs.  And keep in mind, they were already driving all over the bike lane, to the point where I had the time to get my phone out and snap pictures.  It wasn't a quick swerve in to the lane and back, I never would have captured that!

[Tass]

If there's a bike lane, I'd be in the bike lane, flashing my lights and, if necessary, honking my horn. I claim a lane when there is no bike lane. Cars usually only enter the bike lane when turning here. I don't need to bike on any roads that go over 45 mph, though.

Incidentally, I was thinking about your claim that you are safer biking on sidewalks than the average cyclist depicted in statistics, because that average includes many idiots. The statistics, of course, show that biking on the sidewalk is more dangerous than biking in the road. But assuming you are among the most attentive bicyclists, your skill should also improve your safety relative to the average road rider. After all, as highlighted in this thread, it's not as though idiot cyclists only ride on the sidewalk - they're dragging down the average safety everywhere. Our safety evaluations should only be about whether a given sidewalk or road is safer than average (for example, if there are no driveways or intersections crossing the sidewalk, or if the road has a protected bike lane) - because we each bring the same self to either situation.

This is not an attempt to convince you to change your biking habits, more a musing on the danger of assuming that statistics don't apply to us. Plenty of careful, attentive cyclists still get hit from bad habits.

[afox]

Yep @EngagedToFIRE, same kind of thing where I live. Funny you say its the road racer types that "take the lane". Same thing where I live. For some of these people it seems like they're willing to die to prove that they have the same road rights as a car. We get at least a handful of bicyclists deaths every year and unfortunately a lot of them are road bikers who literally just get taken out from behind, its very sad. Often times the driver is drunk or high but we have special laws in our area with far less severe penalties for hit and run vs. driving intoxicated and killing a biker so word has gotten out that when you're messed up and you run over a bicyclist you flee the scene (leave cyclist to die on side of road), hide the car, sober up, call a lawyer, THEN turn yourself in, and even when the cyclists dies you just get probation, beats manslaughter i guess. This had literally happened a half dozen times in my city in the past few years with the driver getting a slap on the wrist. I occasionally ride a road bike for fun too and have to get on busy roads and its scary as hell, way way more dangerous than my daily commute on slow roads, sidewalks, and off street bike paths. Mountain biking is 10x safer.

[afox]

THe problem is that riding on the road you are at the mercy of the driver, you just ride straight and hope the car behind you doesn't mow u down. Riding on the sidewalk, the safety is in the cyclists hands. If the cyclists flies thru driveways with reckless abandonment on a sidewalk they are way more likely to have an accident than a cyclist taking a lane. On the other hand if a cyclist on a sidewalk is aware of their surroundings and only proceeds thru an opening in the sidewalk (driveway, intersection, etc), they can eliminate virtually all risk of being hit by a car. That doesn't mean biking on sidewalks is always better, the surface sucks and its slower and requires more attention but sometimes it is the best option.

[accolay]

Yesterday saw a biker crash over the hood of a car making a right. The biker was traveling in the bike lane, but in the wrong direction on a 50MPH road. Car pulled out making a legal right turn at a red, biker traveling at high speed (for a bike) hits car. Everyone seemed fine; hopefully the biker was cited for reckless driving and learned his lesson.

Obey the rules of the road; it's hardly a day goes by I don't see a bike rider committing a serious moving violation on the road (such as in this case riding on the wrong side of the road or making an illegal left or not stopping at lights/signs or numerous other common violations).

Well, fuck those guys.

I ride my bike nearly every day and I do what I need to keep myself safe while sharing the road. The difference I see is that I'm probably 200lbs including bicycle with a human powered engine open to air that not everybody is watching for vs. a 2+ ton gas powered engine with it's operator encased in a metal cage who think they have priority over everything else. If I screw up I die so I'll take that upon myself. I figure natural selection will eventually take care of people riding bikes who can't figure that out. Otherwise I treat every car like it could kill me- doors opening, turning into me, stopping in the bike lane and showing everyone their magic "this is a parking spot now because I put on my emergency lights" trick.

The Idaho Stop isn't legal where I am, but I always slow down for intersections and if there isn't a car there, I keep going. Same argument as "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around, does it make a sound?" Apologize if I'm offending your sense of law and order.

But what's really annoying is when drivers can't fucking figure out how a 4-way stop functions when a bicycle is there i.e. the bicycle is just like a car. Don't wave me on, just drive your shit- you're wasting my time and fucking up my momentum.

[afox]

agree @accolay. at those intersections when there isnt a line of cars zig zag behind them. I cant underestimate how important it is to ride like you are invisible because to the person staring at their phone you are invisible. Where I live its not just invisibility we have to worry about, drivers are literally out to hurt cyclists or at least scare cyclist to death swerving into them at high speeds and yelling at them, throwing bottles at them out the window, etc (all happen to me within every 3 months or so). You cant really ride like you're invisible road biking for exercise but you can commuting, I get the sense that a lot of the "take the lane" proponents are road bikers. Its also safer to take the lane if you're going faster relative to cars, commuters ride slower, and safer for slower riders to ride on sidewalks, bike paths, etc. I think a lot of the confusion in this thread is due to people from different cycling backgrounds (road biking vs urban commuting). Road bikers cant imagine how one could possibly ride on a sidewalk of a fast road at 20 mph, commuters cant possibly imagine taking the lane during rush hour riding at 10 mph. 

[EngagedToFIRE]

THe problem is that riding on the road you are at the mercy of the driver, you just ride straight and hope the car behind you doesn't mow u down. Riding on the sidewalk, the safety is in the cyclists hands. If the cyclists flies thru driveways with reckless abandonment on a sidewalk they are way more likely to have an accident than a cyclist taking a lane. On the other hand if a cyclist on a sidewalk is aware of their surroundings and only proceeds thru an opening in the sidewalk (driveway, intersection, etc), they can eliminate virtually all risk of being hit by a car. That doesn't mean biking on sidewalks is always better, the surface sucks and its slower and requires more attention but sometimes it is the best option.

I've tried to explain this, but it doesn't sink in unfortunately.

[EngagedToFIRE]

agree @accolay. at those intersections when there isnt a line of cars zig zag behind them. I cant underestimate how important it is to ride like you are invisible because to the person staring at their phone you are invisible. Where I live its not just invisibility we have to worry about, drivers are literally out to hurt cyclists or at least scare cyclist to death swerving into them at high speeds and yelling at them, throwing bottles at them out the window, etc (all happen to me within every 3 months or so). You cant really ride like you're invisible road biking for exercise but you can commuting, I get the sense that a lot of the "take the lane" proponents are road bikers. Its also safer to take the lane if you're going faster relative to cars, commuters ride slower, and safer for slower riders to ride on sidewalks, bike paths, etc. I think a lot of the confusion in this thread is due to people from different cycling backgrounds (road biking vs urban commuting). Road bikers cant imagine how one could possibly ride on a sidewalk of a fast road at 20 mph, commuters cant possibly imagine taking the lane during rush hour riding at 10 mph.

I ride 28mph on the sidewalks and paths.  Obviously conditions permitting.  But we have really long, straight stretches that are great.  Like in the pictures.  For 2 miles there is only 1 intersection to cross, no driveways and you can see people a mile down the road on the sidewalk.  There is also a gorgeous new greenway on the other side of that street that's 10+ feet wide.  The road bikers STILL ride in the street with the cars.  But yeah, I guess natural selection kind of takes care of it...

And yes, mountain biking is way safer.  We also have a velodrome here as well as some really cool gravel trails that run for 50 miles if you wanted to go that far.  At the mountain bike trails, it's a big event on the weekends.  Food trucks, tailgating, etc.  All safe, no cars to run you over.  Then you have the weekend road racers that take over the highway and get whacked by cars.  Just 2 totally different groups and mentality I guess.  We also do some fun rides on the levy (gravel) trail with groups.  Good times.

[afox]

Just in case people think im making this shit up:

"A shocking 40% of the deaths are "hit from behind" incidents, where drivers just go right over a cyclist. This is disproportionately large in relation to the number of cycling accidents."
https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/how-get-killed-bike-your-chances-are-best-urban-arterial-road-getting-hit-behind.html

40% might not seem like much but notice that its BY FAR the single largest cause of cyclist deaths. Im telling you, if you want to be writing about bike safety in 20 years start biking like you are invisible. I guess its hard for bike safety experts to say things like: 'if you ride in the street legally you are have the highest chance of getting killed' because no government employed bike safety coordinator/expert is going to tell you to zig zag behind cars at intersections (when there is not a line of traffic) ride on sidewalks when its unsafe to ride in teh street, etc.

[TomTX]

This guy you're complaining about is obviously biking at approximately the same speed as the cars. There are at least two cars in front of him - a bit of a long following distance, but not unreasonable.

The car taking the picture is obviously tailgating the cyclist and failing to maintain a proper, safe following distance.

When I'm being tailgated (typically when driving in a car), I increase my own following distance to allow for the asshole behind me being unable to stop in time if I have to brake hard - this has been specifically taught to me in driving safety courses (mandatory since I drive for work.) The cyclist having a long-ish following distance is the rational choice for the conditions.

So, example of a cyclist doing it right and the car driver in the wrong.

[EngagedToFIRE]

This guy you're complaining about is obviously biking at approximately the same speed as the cars. There are at least two cars in front of him - a bit of a long following distance, but not unreasonable.

The car taking the picture is obviously tailgating the cyclist and failing to maintain a proper, safe following distance.

When I'm being tailgated (typically when driving in a car), I increase my own following distance to allow for the asshole behind me being unable to stop in time if I have to brake hard - this has been specifically taught to me in driving safety courses (mandatory since I drive for work.) The cyclist having a long-ish following distance is the rational choice for the conditions.

So, example of a cyclist doing it right and the car driver in the wrong.

I didn't complain about this person.  I just posted a handful of comments from the community where I live.  Some are breaking the law, others, like this guy, are not.  I did point out, however, that it would probably be polite for this guy to just ride on the big sidewalk instead of in traffic, but he's well within his right to do what he's doing.  Knowing where this general area is, he would have minimal time on the sidewalk until he hits a road with a proper bike lane.

The person filming seems to be annoyed by this cyclist on a daily basis and I imagine that typically the cyclist is riding slow with a line of cars behind him, while taking the lane.  That's just kind of being a dick, but he's certainly allowed to do it.

[afox]

utterly amazing, just reading about bike safety from reputable orgs like:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/road-safety/bicycle-safety
https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/bike-stats/

what a pathetic joke, they say things like "make sure your bike fits you" and "wear a helmet". When a 5000 pound chevy longhorn e-350 doublecab 4x4 pickup truck driven by a stoned 18 year old drives right over your puny body and crushes your skull with its massive tires do you think the helmet or "properly fitted bike" is going to help you? Cant totally blame these orgs, what do you expect the bike advocacy group to say, riding a bike is incredibly dangerous and the most dangerous place to ride is the legal place (in the road, in traffic)? If they told the truth they'd get run out of town and people would be too scared to bike.

[GuitarStv]

utterly amazing, just reading about bike safety from reputable orgs like:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/road-safety/bicycle-safety
https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/bike-stats/

what a pathetic joke, they say things like "make sure your bike fits you" and "wear a helmet". When a 5000 pound chevy longhorn e-350 doublecab 4x4 pickup truck driven by a stoned 18 year old drives right over your puny body and crushes your skull with its massive tires do you think the helmet or "properly fitted bike" is going to help you? Cant totally blame these orgs, what do you expect the bike advocacy group to say, riding a bike is incredibly dangerous and the most dangerous place to ride is the legal place (in the road, in traffic)? If they told the truth they'd get run out of town and people would be too scared to bike.

If your bike doesn't fit, it is dangerous to ride in traffic.  I've seen people who have been on bike too big for them who have fallen while mounting/dismounting their bike.  That's a bad situation to be in.

There are dangers on the road, but generally once you develop good safety conscious habits they're quite safe.  I ride about 6,000 km each year exclusively on the road, and have done that sort of mileage for quite a few years now.  This includes riding in different cities, in very rural areas, in the suburbs, etc.  What I do is not particularly dangerous.  I've had far more close calls while driving than on my bike.

[TomTX]

I didn't complain about this person.  I just posted a handful of comments from the community where I live.  Some are breaking the law, others, like this guy, are not.  I did point out, however, that it would probably be polite for this guy to just ride on the big sidewalk instead of in traffic, but he's well within his right to do what he's doing.  Knowing where this general area is, he would have minimal time on the sidewalk until he hits a road with a proper bike lane.

I apologize for misinterpreting your posting of that photo.

[Tass]

I get the sense that a lot of the "take the lane" proponents are road bikers. Its also safer to take the lane if you're going faster relative to cars, commuters ride slower, and safer for slower riders to ride on sidewalks, bike paths, etc. I think a lot of the confusion in this thread is due to people from different cycling backgrounds (road biking vs urban commuting). Road bikers cant imagine how one could possibly ride on a sidewalk of a fast road at 20 mph, commuters cant possibly imagine taking the lane during rush hour riding at 10 mph.

I'm a commuter. I'm not that fast. When there is no bike lane, I take the rightmost lane. And I do so because the statistics tell me it's the safest way to bike, plus the infrastructure here regularly reminds drivers of my right to do so. It's safe and convenient.

@Malenkov, the entire thread seems to be people talking past each other about which "facts" are "obvious." Some are citing research, and some are relying on common sense - which, unfortunately, is often misleading.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Again, whether it is legal or not legal to ride on sidewalks varies often by municipality. When I was riding a bike I was generally educated/discouraged to ride on sidewalks because a) it may be illegal, and b) pedestrians, other slow moving objects. I also agree it can be a whole lot more safe to ride on the sidewalk.
So please, just because something is legal/illegal in your own municipality or city, does not necessarily apply elsewhere. One thing IS true, is that bikes are vehicles, and other than controlled highways DO have the right to the road, despite whatever your personal feelings on the subject are. It is safer for a bicyclist to ride in the center of the (right hand) lane, than on the right shoulder and it is also their right to do so.

(NC bike manual)
"Bike paths and multi-use paths:
Again, there is no law requiring you to use these, if they exist. If you are
on such a path and must intersect with a drive or roadway, use the same
precautions you would as if riding on a sidewalk (below).

Sidewalks can be confusing and another area of great debate. Usually it is
safer to ride on the road. But there are times where it would be perfectly
reasonable to ride your bicycle on a sidewalk. A sidewalk may provide a
convenient or essential route to a multi-use path or bike rack, for example.
A sidewalk makes it easy to backtrack a short distance on a one-way
street. Some people simply feel more comfortable on a sidewalk if the
speed and volume of traffic are heavy.
So if you choose the sidewalk, how should you ride it?
Let’s start with the rules. Sometimes riding on the sidewalk is legal and
sometimes it’s not. And you won’t find the answer in a state statute or
DMV driver’s manual. You have to look at the municipal code for the city
where you’re riding. Many cities outlaw riding on sidewalks in center city
areas. A few outlaw it altogether. You just have to know where you are
and check it out. See www.municode.com and if you can’t find it there,
google the city."

I can't fathom how it's safer to exercise in the middle of the street than on a sidewalk off the street.  I just, can't.  Sorry.  And all the people around here that get whacked and killed on bicycles are in the street.  I literally can't recall a single person getting hit by a car on a sidewalk.  Not one.  Yet we get fatal accidents several times a year here with bicyclists in the street.  It could just be a matter of where we each live, but there is just no way riding in the middle of the right lane with cars doing 60mph is safer than a nice big wide sidewalk off the road.

It's really weird how people on this Web Site consider themselves to be gigabrain super thinkers with magnum research that they need for their monster facts. And yet: "this well known and well proven fact? It's wrong. source? My brain, which is tremendous, and a lot of people have been saying that."

Any king size thoughts on why this is?

Are you just here to act like a douche or participate in the thread in a helpful way?  Just let me know so I can make my decision on whether to add you to my ignore list or not.

What you are pointing out is a highly debatable "fact" that we have discussed fairly in depth and shared different points of view.  But you didn't bother reading the entire thread before you decided to act like a jackass, did you?

MOD EDIT: Please read forum rule #1.

[exterous]

I have pretty strong feelings about this but admit its influenced by where I usually am for work: College campuses. The volume of casual bikers with no real knowledge (or, perhaps, care) about the applicable laws is quite high. That disregard also seems to seep into the non-student bikers as well. My biggest issue is the lack of predictability of bikers. I can generally assume a car is not going to depart its lane, cross another, occupied lane to hop the curb and cross the 4 way stop intersection in the crosswalk without slowing down. I can also generally assume a car is not going to purposefully ignore the stop signs at a 4 way stop 8 lane intersection with cars in most of the lanes. I can also generally assume a car isn't going to illegally pass me on the very narrow right shoulder when I'm in the right most right turn only lane about to make a legal right turn (and when there is a perfectly usable bike lane to my left!). I also don't run into blocked doors or stair cases because several people decided to park their cars in right in front of them. Bikers (and now those damnable scooters) on the other hand...

The same goes for when I am a pedestrian on campus. I know where roads are that cars are on. I know where crosswalks are. However bikes and scooters ride anywhere they want with no regard for bike lanes, laws or signs. I see a minimum of one pedestrian hit by a bike per year but I've never seen a biker hit by a car. Of course I say that as someone who was hit by a car while I was 3/4 of the way through a crosswalk (Almost exactly 1 year ago)

So I know my experiences are not representative of the average. But now I'm depressed because this is another reminder that students will be back soon. Between the increase in new to the area drivers and bikers the first several weeks of class feel a bit too much like real life frogger.

[GreenToTheCore]

Piling on.
- Bicyclists are traffic. The speed limit is a maximum. Waiting to pass is a part of driving (people turning, school buses, heavy machinery, etc).
- Taking the lane is what is proven as the safest position and I've never felt safer
- Infrastructure can only get you so far. There will never be a system where there is dedicated bike infra from every single house to every single place that you'd want to go, we must share resources at some point.
- Car Driver messes up --> they kill someone. Bike Bicyclist messes up --> they die.  With great power comes great responsibility

Handy visuals:
Bicyclists aren't some magical group that causes "traffic" -

Taking the lane vs. edge riding -

Safety is visibility -
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/crash-types-and-prevention_common-650x563.png

Biking is a dance you must lead -


Where to ride on the road, master summary: http://azbikelaw.org/where-to-ride-on-the-road/


My mantra: "Never sacrifice your safety for someone else's convenience."
Repeat that to yourself whenever you're feeling bullied by other road users (whether you're in a car or on a bike).

Happy riding everyone! *smiles & waves*

[GreenToTheCore]

Great resources on passing bicyclists
https://www.bikewalknc.org/2016/02/how-to-pass-a-bicyclist/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtFluEODC0

[GreenToTheCore]

In relation to OP's concern, some food for thought:
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-break-traffic-laws-any-more-than-drivers-do/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#29fadbd84bfa

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/08/ending-hostility-towards-cyclists-more-important-than-hi-vis-or-helmets-argues-chris-boardman/#465c42e62aed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8

[darkadams00]

Background: 90 miles per week avg cycling--commuting, errands, recreation, randonneuring. < 20 miles per week avg driving.

Most points have been made, but my observations , more about people than bikes--

1) Attitudes--Good people care about others. The mode of transportation is a red herring. I hope I don't hit someone is a cop-out. Drive like your grandmother is in the backseat, and you're on your way to her best friend's funeral. You'll be safe, within the bounds of the law, and if it's your habit, won't be aggravated when you're stuck in car traffic, bike traffic, school bus traffic, or Farmer Brown on his red-belly Ford tractor hauling a hay wagon traffic. Why pick just one type of traffic to get mad about? Delay = delay, right? You're safe. Your passengers are safe. People around you are safe. And that's the most important factor. Anecdotes, statistics (real or imaginary), and persuasion won't change how you feel about the person in front of you when that person's decisions forces you to bend your will just a little. Road rage crosses all lines because it's not a vehicle problem. Believe me when I say that I've been frustrated when someone needed 15 extra seconds after the light change to get off Not-So-Instagram. Conversely, I understand that cyclists can and do similar things that frustrate drivers. Many of the things we do on the road are inconvenient to someone else in certain situations. Most are not dangerous in the least, whether driving or cycling. Bikes and cars aren't the ones who get mad, and we really don't care what vehicle is doing the toting. Let's not pretend otherwise.

2) Frustration in a group seems to be inversely proportional to one's likelihood to be in or be associated with a group. Cyclists who drive seem to be more conciliatory towards cyclists. Parents of school-age children are often more patient behind school buses and at crossings. Rural folks wave a "good day" to the farmer on the tractor as they pass. But isolate a person from a group, and emotions run high. The exception to that rule seems to be suburban/urban drivers. They're just in a darn hurry to get everywhere, no reason needed for all the rush. They drive a car, and they're still mad about all the cars. Why don't marketers show that reality in luxury car commercials?

 

[afox]

I read the study from 1994 that everyone is referencing when they say
"The average cyclist in this study incurs a risk on the sidewalk 1.8 times as great as on the roadway. "
https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/wachtel.html

I also read the 2014 study of every cyclist death in the US that found that 40% of deaths were from rear end collisions, far more than than from any other cause, none of the rear end collision deaths were on a sidewalk.
https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/EBC_report_final.pdf

The 1994 study doesnt have any motality numbers for sidewalk riders.

Conclusion: The average cyclist may be 1.8 times more likely to have an incident with a vehicle riding on a sidewalk however riding on a sidewalk completely eliminates the risk of the largest cause of cycling deaths (rear end collisions/aka getting run over).

Caveats: the average cyclist riding on a sidewalk probably doesnt pay enough attention to intersections, rides too fast thru intersections, etc.

There is no doubt that @EngagedToFIRE is safer on his wide sidewalk with long sections without intersections than he would be taking lane on a fast road. If anyone has any links to more recent or better studies about riding on sidewalks id love to see them, its odd that the 1994 study doesnt have mortality numbers since that data must have been available for the "incidents". The problem as I see it is that riding in the road is inherently dangerous, cars can and do just mow down cyclists, just because @GuitarStv rides in the middle of the land and is still alive isnt enough to deem it safe. Unfortunately the cyclists who were killed by being run over in a "rear end collsion" number around 200 per year. These people are dead which makes it hard for them to post on the MMM forum about their experiences.  The data tell us that had they been riding on the sidewalk they would not be dead but would 400ish of them would have an "incident" to tell us about.