Author Topic: Biggest spending category - taxes!  (Read 51585 times)

Monkey Uncle

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Biggest spending category - taxes!
« on: February 08, 2015, 07:45:16 AM »
I've held generally left-leaning political views for most of my adult life, so I usually scoff when I hear conservative politicians and pundits complaining about income taxes in the US.  Taxes in the US are considerably lower than in most of the rest of the civilized world, so I tend to think that those of us who are fortunate enough to not need any kind of public assistance have it pretty good.  However, the way I've adjusted my expense tracking for 2015 lets me clearly compare expenditures across all major categories, including taxes.  Imagine my surprise to find out that income and payroll taxes constitute my single largest expense category!

Income and payroll taxes = 33%
Food = 18%
Housing = 15%
Health insurance = 7%
Utilities = 7%
College expenses = 6%
Everything else = 14%

These are percentages of a total of about $6,100 spending so far in 2015.  That's a pretty short sample period, so things are likely to move around some as the year progresses.  I'm expecting about $2k back from Uncle when I file my taxes, but over the course of the year, taxes likely will remain the top category.

My annual salary is about 86k, so I am solidly middle class.  Just goes to show how heavily work is taxed vs. passive income.  When I FIRE (hopefully in about 4 years), my tax bill will go down to essentially zero, and total spending should drop from 64k to 45k.

I'm not looking for any specific advice here; just wanted to share this realization.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 07:55:15 AM »
I pay more in taxes than on all other categories combined.

I don't agree with everything taxes get spent on, but that's what the people have collectively decided to spend them on, so that's fine with me.

Tabaxus

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 08:33:12 AM »
Last year, after deferring $18.5k of income in a 401(k) and deducting my $3,100 HSA contribution, I "spent" ~$52k on federal income tax (effective rate of ~21%); ~$12,400 on state income + use tax (not including sales tax) (~5%).  I spent ~$48k on everything else.  I believe I am undertaxed, but yeah, I think taxes are probably the biggest expense item for a lot of relatively frugal people who are in the "tax-paying class"

HenryDavid

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 08:42:00 AM »
The types of spending that you have so painstakingly reduced were all within your personal control.
Taxes are not.
So logically, once you've whittled everything else down to the lean essentials, taxes will loom very large.
On the other hand, they've been described as the "membership fee for civilization."
Whenever I look at my own finances I work with "after tax dollars" only. Takes the sting off.
At the same time, once retired I'll organize myself to have dividend income and reduce taxes where it's legally encouraged.

Capsu78

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 08:50:46 AM »
I was solidly liberal in HS and college and mocked Reagan mercilessly in the 80's.
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.
When I started cutting checks sometimes larger than my W2's from earlier in my career my politics started swinging conservative.
If everyone in the "taxpaying class" were switched to quarterly taxes that were not magically removed from regular paychecks I think we would see a tax revolt in this country.

Tabaxus

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 09:05:13 AM »
I was solidly liberal in HS and college and mocked Reagan mercilessly in the 80's.
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.
When I started cutting checks sometimes larger than my W2's from earlier in my career my politics started swinging conservative.
If everyone in the "taxpaying class" were switched to quarterly taxes that were not magically removed from regular paychecks I think we would see a tax revolt in this country.

When people call me a hypocrite for advocating for higher taxes on people like me without cutting an individual check to the treasury, I counter that the fact pattern displayed by your post is actually where tax hypocrisy comes in:  folks who argue that taxes should be higher UNTIL that would hurt their bottom line.

I'm not sure why you're complaining about getting to keep your money for 3 months longer than the rest of us (and reaping the advantage of 3 months of interest or market returns, whichever way you want to go with it).  There are other issues about being a 1099'er, but quarterly payments rather than constant withholding is not what you should be griping about.

bzzzt

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 09:22:49 AM »
I'm not sure why you're complaining about getting to keep your money for 3 months longer than the rest of us (and reaping the advantage of 3 months of interest or market returns, whichever way you want to go with it).  There are other issues about being a 1099'er, but quarterly payments rather than constant withholding is not what you should be griping about.

I don't think he was complaining about having to pay every 3 months as much as he was relating his "awakening" to how much different it feels to come out of your pocket for taxes vs. having them withheld during payroll.

I, too, think that people would be a lot harder on government spending if they had to send a check vs. "painless" payroll withholding.

neophyte

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 09:25:07 AM »
If I remove saving and only look at spending this is true for me too. Taxes are the largest category followed closely by rent.

And that's on a $30k income so my taxes are comparatively low and I have to pay a relatively high percentage of my income for rent if I want to live somewhere decent.

Tabaxus

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2015, 09:34:10 AM »
I'm not sure why you're complaining about getting to keep your money for 3 months longer than the rest of us (and reaping the advantage of 3 months of interest or market returns, whichever way you want to go with it).  There are other issues about being a 1099'er, but quarterly payments rather than constant withholding is not what you should be griping about.

I don't think he was complaining about having to pay every 3 months as much as he was relating his "awakening" to how much different it feels to come out of your pocket for taxes vs. having them withheld during payroll.

I, too, think that people would be a lot harder on government spending if they had to send a check vs. "painless" payroll withholding.

I suppose.  I don't get it though.  The paystub shows gross pay, then it shows gigantic deductions for taxes, and then you see what you took home. I don't get how that is painless. 

I suppose it's the same as folks who would rather over-withhold throughout the year and get a refund, rather than hit $0 (or under-withhold and write a check).  I don't get this either though.  I like getting interest-free loans, but even more, I HATE giving interest-free loans.  (This critique does not apply to people who intentionally over-withhold so that they can get Amazon cards with the 10% bonus that you can get through Turbotax, or to people using the refund to buy paper bonds in excess of the yearly cap at the treasury webpage, things I admit that I do not do).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 09:36:42 AM by Tabaxus »

rocketpj

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2015, 09:38:08 AM »
I worry about taxes sometimes, but then my kids go to a great school with great teachers.  And my wife has a cough for 4 weeks and goes to the doctor without hesitation (we live in Canada so we get a better deal for our taxes than you folks in the US).  And I realize I live in one of the safest, cleanest, healthiest and most well educated jurisdictions on the planet, by far, and think that my tax bill is a bargain.

Not that I love paying them - I'd love to have all those things for less, and I am of the opinion that the way it gets collected (and from whom) is a bit skewed, but generally I am not too bothered by taxes.  Sure, there is some waste and we need to hold people accountable or it all breaks down, but the lockstep 'all taxes=baaaad' mantra of much of our media and Conservative politicians is a hopeless oversimplification of a necessarily complex topic.

bacchi

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2015, 09:50:58 AM »
I, too, think that people would be a lot harder on government spending if they had to send a check vs. "painless" payroll withholding.

Meh, the same people would complain.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2015, 09:52:18 AM »
Whenever I look at my own finances I work with "after tax dollars" only. Takes the sting off.

That's what I usually do, as you pretty much have to do it that way to get a clear picture of your expected spending in retirement.  But it's good to track the taxes too as an incentive to take advantage of as many breaks as possible.

MoneyCat

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 09:59:14 AM »
I don't have a problem with the large amounts of taxes I pay to the federal government, because as a child I directly benefited from those taxes in the form of public assistance that put food in my belly, so I didn't go hungry.  People who have experienced that kind of thing have a different perspective than those who have never known hardship.  Call it the "Charles Dickens Effect".

I'm okay paying lots of federal taxes with the understanding that if something horrible happened and I ended up back where I started I would have some assistance so I wouldn't die from starvation and exposure.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2015, 09:59:29 AM »
Someone mentioned "tax hypocrisy."  Sometimes I feel like a tax hypocrite.  I generally agree that we need government for certain things, and we need to pay for what we get (I work for the government, for Christ's sake!).  And I think it is pretty unfair that work gets taxed far more heavily than passive income.  But I'm also counting on that favorable treatment of passive income to make retirement possible.  If I had to pay the same overall tax rate I'm paying on wages when I start living off of capital gains, dividends, social security, etc., ER would not be possible for me.  So I guess I'll just kick back and relax while I'm feeling guilty about it.  ;)

SaintM

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2015, 11:24:47 AM »
When my taxes look like this at the end of the year, it makes me nauseous.  When I hear Democrats whine about closing "loopholes" on any possible break imaginable, it makes me want to scream.

Income tax:  $25,500 (not fully computed yet, but a good estimate)
Social Security tax:  $10,150
Medicare tax:  $2,374
Primary residence property tax:  $6,000
Rental properties tax:  $9,881
Sales tax:  I don't take the time to compute
State tax:  $0 (about the only good thing on this list)

Janie

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 11:32:36 AM »
Quote
"Friends," said he, "the taxes are indeed very heavy, and, if those laid on by the government were the only ones we had to pay, we might more easily discharge them; but we have many others, and much more grievous to some of us. We are taxed twice as much by our idleness, three times as much by our pride, and four times as much by our folly; and from these taxes the commissioners cannot ease or deliver us, by allowing an abatement. However, let us hearken to good advice, and something may be done for us; God helps them that help themselves, as Poor Richard says.

Benjamin Franklin
The Way to Wealth

MoneyCat

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 11:53:01 AM »
When my taxes look like this at the end of the year, it makes me nauseous.  When I hear Democrats whine about closing "loopholes" on any possible break imaginable, it makes me want to scream.

Income tax:  $25,500 (not fully computed yet, but a good estimate)
Social Security tax:  $10,150
Medicare tax:  $2,374
Primary residence property tax:  $6,000
Rental properties tax:  $9,881
Sales tax:  I don't take the time to compute
State tax:  $0 (about the only good thing on this list)

Congratulations!  If you are paying taxes of those amounts, you must make a massive amount of money each year.  I hope to one day pay rental properties taxes too.

austin

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 11:58:45 AM »
I generally get what I pay for and then some so I don't complain.

AHLEditor

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 12:43:53 PM »
Taxes are something I generally don't factor in, but I disagree with the point above in that I think people -do- notice when their paycheck changes from the last week of December and the first check in January and there's no raise on Jan 1.

The membership fee remark hits home for me.  I live in the greatest country in the world - if I wanted to move I could, but I don't.  I feel I get what I pay for.  Locally too - the public school system is huge for me, because I personally dealt with changing high schools and can attest to the difference between quality schools and those that are not as focused on academics.  Oh, and our local public services are pretty damn good when I compare it to other family members.  So I know I get what I pay for.

We all have the ability to make the change through the vote.  I only get annoyed when people on either far wing try to brow beat me into doing way more or eliminating taxes all together.  Just respect my value of balance, please.

rocketpj

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 01:01:52 PM »
When I was a young Albertan and still figuring things out politically, I briefly flirted with the simplistic appeal of being an anti-tax libertarian (in the insufferable way that only a first year Econ. student in Alberta can).  I tried some of the standard lines on my grandfather - who had grown up on a farm in the Depression, then went on to become an Economist and Statistician of some note.

He laughed at me openly, then told me about when he had been mustered out of the Army after the war and was working on a landscaping project for some rich guy.  The fellow came around and in an attempt at cameraderie made a derogatory comment about taxes and the burden thereof.

My grandfather leaned on his shovel and said 'Mister, I can't wait to start paying taxes." 

It took me about 5 years to get his point, which is that if you are paying a lot of taxes you are making a LOT more money than someone who isn't.  So it really isn't something to complain about.  It would sure be a lot harder to FIRE in Somalia - where the tax 'burden' is zero, but there is no society there to protect your wealth, and lots of heavily armed killers with an interest in taking it from you.

SF Semi-Mustache

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2015, 01:16:55 PM »
I don't have a problem with the large amounts of taxes I pay to the federal government, because as a child I directly benefited from those taxes in the form of public assistance that put food in my belly, so I didn't go hungry.  People who have experienced that kind of thing have a different perspective than those who have never known hardship.  Call it the "Charles Dickens Effect".

I'm okay paying lots of federal taxes with the understanding that if something horrible happened and I ended up back where I started I would have some assistance so I wouldn't die from starvation and exposure.

+1.  Mmmhmm.  I grew up on food stamps and Medicaid, and received a Pell grant to attend my first two years of college.  Now I pay $30k+ in Federal income tax each year, and another $12k in California income tax.  And I do so gladly as a result of the benefits I received. 

I don't dispute that there's waste in government, and I would take a big red pen to certain parts of the Federal and state budgets.  In fact, I worked in the Federal government for several years, and I found parts of it to be incredibly frustrating.  But I'd also increase spending and investment enormously in a variety of other areas if I could, and I would still like to see higher taxes. 

Gin1984

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2015, 01:29:58 PM »
I did not get aid as a kid, but my mom did when her mother divorced her alcoholic father.  That allowed my mom and her sisters a foundation which allowed them to be middle class as adults.  Yes, none of them are great at money and I was raised in a higher class attitude than them but I never forgot that my family benefited from aid.  Even if one family out of ten grows out of poverty and all/most of their kids grow up to be productive citizens I will consider my tax money well spent.  Would I prefer things like soda/candy to not be part of food stamps and for daycare subsidies to be funded for all instead of wasting money on planes not needed by the military?  Yes, but that is separate from the fact that we should be paying taxes and frankly I think those of us who can afford to pay more, should.  If I had to pay a couple hundred dollar more it would cut into my savings budget, if a family like my grandmothers had to pay more, they would have been on the streets.

Capsu78

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2015, 03:37:35 PM »
I'm not sure why you're complaining about getting to keep your money for 3 months longer than the rest of us (and reaping the advantage of 3 months of interest or market returns, whichever way you want to go with it).  There are other issues about being a 1099'er, but quarterly payments rather than constant withholding is not what you should be griping about.

I don't think he was complaining about having to pay every 3 months as much as he was relating his "awakening" to how much different it feels to come out of your pocket for taxes vs. having them withheld during payroll.

I, too, think that people would be a lot harder on government spending if they had to send a check vs. "painless" payroll withholding.

This^^^... I play "fair ball" with my taxes, only been audited once and the IRS found the mistake my tax preparer had made.  I even put the IRS auditor on the phone with my tax guy to explain where he went wrong and cut the check to the IRS without a quibble.  Tax preparer apologized to me and remains my tax preparer.  Just saw him Friday.   
However I have consciously decided to lift my libertarian leaning middle finger up by not earning for Uncle Sugar anymore unless the "partnership" changes... I believe the Center for Disease Control should focus on disease control and not life style choices.  I support helping the helpless and get POed when the "clueless" suck out social services targeted for the "helpless".  I would rather have the First Lady channel her efforts to curing Bitchy Resting Face in our lifetime rather than project remedies for her own "struggles with the chubs" on every schoolkid in the nation.
I am just no longer motivated to make the effort to do the hard work to grow my consulting business and share it with the DC crowd.  Sure, they will extract their due out of our household income but I am taking my "maximum effort" ball and going home.
And for anybody who is tempted to pigeon hole me with the  Atlas Shrugged crowd, know that I probably have undiagnosed ADD and had difficulty getting past "Call me Ishmael" in Moby Dick before seeing a squirrel run by.   Reading  Ann Rynd??? Couldn't do it for a million bucks.

Eric

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2015, 04:00:22 PM »
This is like the new thing around here now?  Everyday there's a new thread to complain about taxes.  Whine and bitch and whine and bitch.  I don't know how you people even get out of bed in the morning with a government that's constantly "stealing" your money that you get zero benefit from.  I'd probably just off myself if this was my worldview.  How sad.

Capsu78

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2015, 04:35:06 PM »
Sorry, I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to a response here on MMM.  I will know my place moving forward.

phillyvalue

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 04:41:09 PM »
I think you have to separate your views on taxes into two categories - micro and macro.

On a micro-level, you should try to minimize your tax burden where it's possible to do so without too much inconvenience, but otherwise not let tax rates affect your behavior. At the end of the day, working harder still gets you more regardless of the tax rate.

On a macro-level, everyone has their opinion on whether government "should" spend more or less. The U.S. spends ~41% of GDP on government including state and local, that's high but still below most other countries on the list of ones I'd ever consider living in. IMO military spending should be cut by a few hundred billion, and I think most outside of politics and the defense sector would agree on that. Unfortunately it's not an easy pitch to rally voters on.

The danger comes when you let your micro and macro views intertwine - you can start doing stupid things such as not working hard "because taxes are too high." None of us can change the macro picture much at all, so the best course of action is to optimize our own lives within the rules of the society we live in.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 04:43:06 PM »
Sorry, I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to a response here on MMM.  I will know my place moving forward.

You have every right to post your opinion. Others have the same right to post their opinion of your opinion. If someone disagrees with you, even impolitely, that's just part of the free exchange of ideas.

kpd905

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 05:07:20 PM »
Just had to calculate mine, and it was around 26% last year.  Luckily I maxed out my 401k or it would be even worse.

Capsu78

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 05:10:28 PM »
Phillyvalue said:
 "..you can start doing stupid things such as not working hard "because taxes are too high."

Ok, I'll bite... considering the demographic of this website is comprised of folks interested in FIRE, some of whose motivation is on leaving the workforce way, way early because they desire  to leave jobs they are good at, but know they will not "like for a lifetime" be any different from actually "liking the work" but disliking the "partner in success" lack of effort in sharing either risk or effort- Uncle Sugar?  If it is my foot that pushes the pedal to the metal and I no longer feel the "need for speed" what do I need to feel stupid about?  Where should my motivation come from?


phillyvalue

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 05:35:19 PM »
To be honest, the wording of your post is kind of confusing, so I'm not sure exactly what your point is.

If you don't want to work and are financially able to avoid working, then of course you don't need to feel stupid about that.

But sometimes you will hear the tale of the guy who had a great business idea or a great investment idea, or maybe was offered a promotion at work, and he would have loved to do it and he would still have earned a good post-tax gain doing it, but the taxes were just so high that he couldn't do it. That's the kind of folly that I'm talking about, the idea that the psychological drain of having taxes taken out of your profits will make you not want to work. The line of thinking that if the capital gains tax was 50%, people wouldn't invest, they'd stuff the money under their mattress. Rationally, if you look at the post-tax gain and it still compensates you adequately for your time and/or capital, then you proceed regardless of the tax rate. You should still end up investing earning a 4-5% after-tax annual gain versus earning 0% under the mattress. This line of thinking allows for the possibility that at some point, the tax rate would get so high that it will indeed affect rational decision-making.

Capsu78

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2015, 05:55:49 PM »
To be honest, the wording of your post is kind of confusing, so I'm not sure exactly what your point is.

If you don't want to work and are financially able to avoid working, then of course you don't need to feel stupid about that.

But sometimes you will hear the tale of the guy who had a great business idea or a great investment idea, or maybe was offered a promotion at work, and he would have loved to do it and he would still have earned a good post-tax gain doing it, but the taxes were just so high that he couldn't do it. That's the kind of folly that I'm talking about, the idea that the psychological drain of having taxes taken out of your profits will make you not want to work. The line of thinking that if the capital gains tax was 50%, people wouldn't invest, they'd stuff the money under their mattress. Rationally, if you look at the post-tax gain and it still compensates you adequately for your time and/or capital, then you proceed regardless of the tax rate. You should still end up investing earning a 4-5% after-tax annual gain versus earning 0% under the mattress. This line of thinking allows for the possibility that at some point, the tax rate would get so high that it will indeed affect rational decision-making.

Well said...both posts.  I focused on a particular sentence a bit too hard.   I'm at the point in my 1099 practice that my tax preparer suggests I need to earn 6 figures to rationalize its existence and I just don't feel like billing $2.50 to earn a investable/spendable $1.00. Spouse is highly compensated.  Stopped working with disagreeable, slightly unethical Ahole/ business contacts a couple of years ago. ..life is too short.  This year I have stopped speaking at industry conferences where I was both speaking but also networking.  My issue is the value proposition, after taxation, is considerably less that the effort I used to love to put in.  I now have 0 customers that I serve with 100% customer satisfaction.  One of my clients is 76 years old and made a strong push to help him on a particular project I had expertise in.  He has more money than God, I admire him greatly but felt like a chump telling him I was not interested in working that hard.

Norioch

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2015, 11:59:53 PM »
Income taxes are only a problem when you have income above the standard deduction + personal exemption. Just keep your expenses below that and retire early, problem solved.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/04/the-lovely-low-taxes-of-early-retirement/

The White Coat Investor

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2015, 04:00:46 AM »
I spend more on retirement saving than taxes, but not by much. I think my tax bill is up to almost 25% of gross income, and that's after maxing out every possible tax-advantaged account I can find and qualify for. And that doesn't include property and sales tax. That's just income and payroll.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2015, 04:31:03 AM »
This is like the new thing around here now?  Everyday there's a new thread to complain about taxes.  Whine and bitch and whine and bitch.  I don't know how you people even get out of bed in the morning with a government that's constantly "stealing" your money that you get zero benefit from.  I'd probably just off myself if this was my worldview.  How sad.

My point in starting the thread was not necessarily to complain about the government stealing my money.  As I said before, I see the value in having government, and somebody's got to pay for it.  I was just surprised at how much more I'm paying for government than anything else that I buy.  As one previous poster pointed out, that is partly due to the fact that I'm frugal and have reduced spending on many things, but I don't have the power to reduce how much I spend on income and payroll taxes (beyond maximizing deductions and credits).  The other major reason for this situation is what I pointed out in a previous post: the US taxes work much more heavily than passive income.  And that IS something that might be worth bitching about.  My combined federal & state income + payroll taxes rate is somewhere north of 20%, whereas wealthy trust fund brats are paying a much lower rate because of preferential tax rates on capital gains and dividends, plus they don't pay any payroll taxes at all.

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2015, 07:35:01 AM »
Income and payroll taxes = 33%
Food = 18%
Housing = 15%
Health insurance = 7%
Utilities = 7%
College expenses = 6%
Everything else = 14%

Try calculating with a longer timeframe - 50 years. Most of your categories should stay relatively constant; food, housing, utilities, everything else. if you have a monthly estimate then over 50 years you'll spend 600 times that (12*50). 

Taxes are different. I pay taxes on my work, once I retire my tax burden will be slashed. If my budget is $30k I'll pay nothing in Income tax, capital gains, or provincial (state) tax. I'll still be paying a great big sum over the next 15 years; but my lifetime contribution will be less than my food budget, provided I live a long time of course. Then think of what services you'll get over the long time frame, it's not so bad then.

I think high income people who adopt mustachian principles can pay very little tax; over their lifetime. Definitely a lot less than the average consumer who needs to work 40 years.

caliq

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2015, 07:51:33 AM »
Income and payroll taxes = 33%
Food = 18%
Housing = 15%
Health insurance = 7%
Utilities = 7%
College expenses = 6%
Everything else = 14%

Try calculating with a longer timeframe - 50 years. Most of your categories should stay relatively constant; food, housing, utilities, everything else. if you have a monthly estimate then over 50 years you'll spend 600 times that (12*50). 

Taxes are different. I pay taxes on my work, once I retire my tax burden will be slashed. If my budget is $30k I'll pay nothing in Income tax, capital gains, or provincial (state) tax. I'll still be paying a great big sum over the next 15 years; but my lifetime contribution will be less than my food budget, provided I live a long time of course. Then think of what services you'll get over the long time frame, it's not so bad then.

I think high income people who adopt mustachian principles can pay very little tax; over their lifetime. Definitely a lot less than the average consumer who needs to work 40 years.

That is a great way to look at it!  Thanks for sharing :)

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 11:09:22 AM »
Taxes aren't really "spending".  It's not like you went out and bought a basket or a box of taxes.  People who bitch about taxes are the ones who never notice the roads they drive on, the streetlights which illuminate their neighbourhood, the snowplow which allows them to get to work, and they're the first who would call the fire department or police in an emergency.  ...And it's the reason lots of places had to cut city water purification systems and now the people buy bottled water.  Yeah, that's a smart move--get your taxes lowered $100 a year and now you have to buy $400 a year in bottled water for life. 

Gin1984

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 11:39:07 AM »
I can't wait until my biggest expenses are taxes!  Think about how much money I'd be saving if that was the case.

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 12:55:48 PM »
I worry about taxes sometimes, but then my kids go to a great school with great teachers.  And my wife has a cough for 4 weeks and goes to the doctor without hesitation (we live in Canada so we get a better deal for our taxes than you folks in the US).  And I realize I live in one of the safest, cleanest, healthiest and most well educated jurisdictions on the planet, by far, and think that my tax bill is a bargain.


See, my husband and I would like to keep more of our money so we can save for/afford a house in a decent school district when we do have kids. I was stuck in a shitty district growing up and I am NOT inflicting that on mine. When Sweetie busted his ass through engineering school, it only follows that he should make more than the lazy twit who wouldn't go beyond basic algebra in their studies, which implies keeping a decent percentage of it.

If we were both unemployed, we'd have COBRA payments to budget for. I will withhold the rants on the US health care system, they are extensive, and you probably wouldn't like them. So it's another reason to save, and further pressure on our savings if we had to tap it.

Neither of us went to state universities; we got scholarships from other places that made the cost of attendance less. The huge acceleration in state university tuition just started getting serious when I did undergrad. It was far worse when Sweetie hit college (being a few years younger).

I have collected more unemployment than I would have liked- I'm not going to complain about my taxes until I've paid that back into the system. However, a major factor in the financial crisis was the regulators and lawmakers not doing their jobs properly. If we had a sane government and an effective regulatory system, I probably wouldn't be carrying as many psychological scars from long term unemployment.

If our income rises and we get grouse-y about it, we usually just figure out how much higher we can nudge our 401k contributions. If it's the marginal rate that offends, shelter the money from the higher rate. But available writeoffs for healthcare expenses have shrunk (FSA limits). Allowable writeoffs for childcare are less than half of what day care around here costs (not an issue yet, but likely in the future).

I do not grudge a social safety net for people who have hit rough times. I grew up in a rust belt state. I am very concerned, though, about the rapidly rising cost of Important Things (like education and healthcare), and affording it without any "help." There's also the volatile, feast-or-famine economy we (collectively) find ourselves in. A family might make great money one year and be screwed the next- but the justification on high marginal rates rests on the assumption that you are making that kind of money all the time. So if US residents want to bitch about taxes, bear in mind there are valid reasons for it.

LiveLean

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2015, 02:15:50 PM »
I was solidly liberal in HS and college and mocked Reagan mercilessly in the 80's.
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.
When I started cutting checks sometimes larger than my W2's from earlier in my career my politics started swinging conservative.
If everyone in the "taxpaying class" were switched to quarterly taxes that were not magically removed from regular paychecks I think we would see a tax revolt in this country.

I received my last W-2 16 years ago, entering into the world of 1099s (and small business taxes). I've never understood how anyone who is self-employed or a small business owner is not staunchly conservative.

Gin1984

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2015, 02:53:34 PM »
I was solidly liberal in HS and college and mocked Reagan mercilessly in the 80's.
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.
When I started cutting checks sometimes larger than my W2's from earlier in my career my politics started swinging conservative.
If everyone in the "taxpaying class" were switched to quarterly taxes that were not magically removed from regular paychecks I think we would see a tax revolt in this country.

I received my last W-2 16 years ago, entering into the world of 1099s (and small business taxes). I've never understood how anyone who is self-employed or a small business owner is not staunchly conservative.
Perhaps because their morals are more important to them than use of their money?  I value my bodily autonomy more than I value some cash.  In addition I find it morally reprehensible not to aid the weakest among us, like children who did not ask to be born into poverty.  I also believe that people should have equal rights and liberals are "less" sexist, racist and homophobic, at least on average. 

dividendman

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2015, 03:27:04 PM »
Please, I beg you, if you are paying too much in tax, just set up a business and pay me a large wage. This requires almost no effort on your part, just send me a cheque for "consulting" and you can consider this post the totality of the consultation. Through the miracle of the tax system you can then deduct it off of your taxes (you pay less tax!) and I'll have to pay tax on it (more taxes for me!). I'm willing to make the sacrifice for you.

Poorman

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2015, 05:11:16 PM »
My feeling is that since a huge chunk of our taxes end up as slush money funneled to special interest groups as rewards for financing political campaigns, there is nothing wrong with complaining about the tax burden imposed on us.  It seems to me that as Mustachians we should demand that the government (aka politicians) act in a more Mustachian way with our nation's resources (the taxes we pay).  The way some posters here can just accept their fate of paying high taxes for a lackluster return of services, or worse yet, jump onto threads to yell at those that they may perceive as criticizing our tax burden, is beyond me.

To me it's pretty simple.  The amount of taxes we pay is roughly proportional to the amount of money spent (some is borrowed).  The amount of money spent is directed by the voters, which for the most part are consumerist suckas, not Mustachians.  Therefore, the spending they dictate to our politicians is highly wasteful, but in line with their poor money habits.  The typical voter demands all sorts of entitlement spending because they want instant gratification from their government, just like they do when buying unnecessary stuff.  It's a sugar high that makes them feel good for a little while, but the costs to their financial futures are long term.

So what's wrong with Mustachians demanding more from their government?  Why can't we expect our representatives to act in a more frugal manner on our behalf?  If they did so, our tax burdens would naturally be lower.

Eric

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2015, 05:44:05 PM »
My feeling is that since a huge chunk of our taxes end up as slush money funneled to special interest groups as rewards for financing political campaigns, there is nothing wrong with complaining about the tax burden imposed on us.  It seems to me that as Mustachians we should demand that the government (aka politicians) act in a more Mustachian way with our nation's resources (the taxes we pay).  The way some posters here can just accept their fate of paying high taxes for a lackluster return of services, or worse yet, jump onto threads to yell at those that they may perceive as criticizing our tax burden, is beyond me.

To me it's pretty simple.  The amount of taxes we pay is roughly proportional to the amount of money spent (some is borrowed).  The amount of money spent is directed by the voters, which for the most part are consumerist suckas, not Mustachians.  Therefore, the spending they dictate to our politicians is highly wasteful, but in line with their poor money habits.  The typical voter demands all sorts of entitlement spending because they want instant gratification from their government, just like they do when buying unnecessary stuff.  It's a sugar high that makes them feel good for a little while, but the costs to their financial futures are long term.

So what's wrong with Mustachians demanding more from their government?  Why can't we expect our representatives to act in a more frugal manner on our behalf?  If they did so, our tax burdens would naturally be lower.

There is nothing wrong with demanding more from your government.  It's constantly complaining about it on an MMM message board that's the issue.

It's like people think the following happens:
Step 1: Complain about shit on MMM
Step 2: Government becomes more responsive/efficient/better

When in reality:
Step 1: Complain about shit on MMM
Step 2: Annoy everyone that reads your post

Notice that the reality is that complaining about shit on MMM doesn't actually result in what you want to happen.  Somehow I feel like there's some huge disconnect here, where people actually believe that their complaints about taxes actually reduce their tax owed or something.  Add to the fact that most of the complainer posts completely ignore the fact that they derive any benefit at all from those same taxes, and well, you've arrived at reality Step 2.

Leisured

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2015, 11:17:13 PM »
Monkey Uncle pays a third of his gross income in taxes. Is the glass two thirds full, or one third empty? Monkey Uncle made an interesting observation, and my remark is not meant as a criticism of him, but of the reaction of some others.

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2015, 04:03:31 AM »
Monkey Uncle pays a third of his gross income in taxes. Is the glass two thirds full, or one third empty? Monkey Uncle made an interesting observation, and my remark is not meant as a criticism of him, but of the reaction of some others.

Actually, a third of my spending goes to income and payroll taxes.  As a proportion of my income, it's more like 1/5-1/4.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2015, 04:45:44 AM »
O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.  And remember, that doesn't include sales tax, property tax, local taxes and fees, etc.  I can handle that if I'm satisfied with what I'm getting for my money, and if the money is collected fairly.  Let's take a look at those two aspects.

Here's where federal spending goes:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

Social security = 24%
Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP = 22%
Defense and international security = 19%
Safety net programs (i.e., welfare) = 12%
Benefits for federal retirees and veterans = 8%
Interest on the debt = 6%
Transportation/infrastructure = 3%
Science and medical research = 2%
Education = 1%
Non-security international = 1%
Everything else = 3%

I look at that and immediately notice that the two largest expense categories fall entirely on the backs of middle class workers.  Remember, only the first 118,500 of earned income is subject to the payroll tax that funds social security and medicare.  CEOs who are earning millions a year only pay the tax on the first 118,500.  People who live off their investments pay nothing toward SS and medicare.  They also pay preferentially low rates on their capital gains and dividends, so they are getting a sweet deal on funding the rest of the government.  I also look at the third category and note that a lot of that goes to providing security for western Europe, the middle east, and other allies around the world who don't care to pay for their own security.  Yet the remaining third of spending is what the politicians typically choose to argue about. 

Incidentally, I work for the part of the government that is in the 3% "everything else" category.  We constantly get shit on about how wasteful we are and how we need to improve our efficiency so we can do more with less.

So yes, working person, your taxes are high, but it's not because the government is wasting your money on research or welfare.  It's because politicians choose to give preferential treatment to the people who pay for their campaigns.

prof61820

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2015, 05:41:29 AM »
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.

It's amazing how much higher the tax on earned income is compared to unearned income (capital gains) - especially when you add in Social Security payments for the self-employed.  The US needs to take a hard look at its current tax policy to provide some parity or even start favoring income earned from labor over income earned from investments.

phillyvalue

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2015, 05:49:29 AM »
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.

It's amazing how much higher the tax on earned income is compared to unearned income (capital gains) - especially when you add in Social Security payments for the self-employed.  The US needs to take a hard look at its current tax policy to provide some parity or even start favoring income earned from labor over income earned from investments.

Part of the capital gain that is taxed is not a gain at all, just inflation. If I have a capital gain of 8%, with modest inflation, the real gain is perhaps 6%. But I am paying tax on the full gain. When you calculate the tax I am paying on the real gain, you get a rate much closer to tax on income.

The federal rate for high income individuals is now 23.8%, 20% plus a Medicare surcharge. Effectively if you are that person you end up paying 30% or higher considering state taxes. It's not that low.

prof61820

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Re: Biggest spending category - taxes!
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2015, 05:56:05 AM »
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.

It's amazing how much higher the tax on earned income is compared to unearned income (capital gains) - especially when you add in Social Security payments for the self-employed.  The US needs to take a hard look at its current tax policy to provide some parity or even start favoring income earned from labor over income earned from investments.

Part of the capital gain that is taxed is not a gain at all, just inflation. If I have a capital gain of 8%, with modest inflation, the real gain is perhaps 6%. But I am paying tax on the full gain. When you calculate the tax I am paying on the real gain, you get a rate much closer to tax on income.

The federal rate for high income individuals is now 23.8%, 20% plus a Medicare surcharge. Effectively if you are that person you end up paying 30% or higher considering state taxes. It's not that low.

Same could be said for wage increases...

I'm in favor of a graduated or progressive capital gains tax system.  So, if you have less than, let's say $5million in annual capital gains, then you would pay the lowest rate (and maybe lower than the current rates).  This would help little guys who properly saved for retirement or are running small businesses.  The capital gains rate would increase as your capital gains grow after $5 million.  This would generate some much needed revenue from a miniscule part of the US population that is already incredibly financially secure.

If you really want to have some fun, you make revenue from capital gains the sole source of defense funding which would pit the .00001% against the military.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 06:14:12 AM by prof61820 »