Author Topic: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?  (Read 5773 times)

loxs

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Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« on: September 27, 2013, 02:05:07 AM »
I am in the beginning my long quest to find my new home. I am not in a hurry and probably will be in planning and choosing for 1-2 years.

I am currently a citizen (and resident) of Bulgaria. This is the poorest country in EU, although I am doing quite well. The country is great regarding the cost of living and climate, but has huge problems (at least compared to other EU countries) in almost all other aspects like healthcare, education (having children here is out of question for me), infrastructure, government services, corruption etc.

Easiest and most logical destination for me is some other EU country. I have done a fair amount of research and have quite a good understanding about most common stuff. I would be very grateful if fellow Mustachians could share some first hand experience, especially about things concerning Mustachian way of life.

I am a programmer, so finding a job (even if it has to be remote to the future country of residence) is not an issue. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind living near a tech hub, as programming is also a hobby for me, and I don't plan stopping doing that even after I go FI, and would like to be able to be a part of such a community.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:27:50 AM by loxs »

Ipodius

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2013, 03:00:38 AM »
So I haven't travelled to Europe in a decade, and have never visited Estonia in particular, but I would definitely check it out.

I've got a few friends from Estonia -  it seems that their smart economic policies and a healthy culture have resulted in great economic growth, and have meant that the economic down turn has had less of an impact on the country. It's definitely somewhere I plan to visit.

Check out the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia
http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2012/07/24/little-estonia-uber-alles/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/07/13/estonia-and-the-department-of-meaningless-statistics/ (A contrary view)

Some things I like about Estonia:
- Implemented a smart, simple flat-tax system (21%)
- Embraced technology in government (online voting, 'e-government', etc)
- Fast growing technology sector
- In Europe - easy / cheap to travel to other European locations.
- A combination of low tax rates, access to finance at relatively low interest rates, and government programmes that (seem) well funded and well run mean that it could be a great place to be a Mustachian.

some1

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 04:14:10 AM »
To make money, Switzerland is a very good choice, especially as long as both you and your partner work. Later, when you have kids, the high cost of living plus super expensive daycare make it less attractive.

Christof

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 06:04:50 AM »
access to finance at relatively low interest rates

Not so sure about this one... I'm investing in isePankur (similar to Lending Club for Estonia) specifically because interest rates are between 28% and 33%.

daverobev

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 07:13:48 AM »
Depends on what you want, really - climate wise specifically.

Do you like a snowy winter, 'all four seasons'? I guess you'd need a country that is more rather than less immigrant tolerant (anti-Polish graffiti in Ireland kinda shocked me when I lived there.. but perhaps I'm just easily shocked).

Is language an issue - do you speak everything and will pick up the local quickly?

some1

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 07:30:30 AM »
The thing is, you will never find both: high salaries AND low cost of living. If you really aim for FIRE, working in a high-income area to stash money, then settling down at a nice and cheap location is the most efficient strategy, in my opinion. 

loxs

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 09:46:17 AM »
@daverobev - Climate doesn't matter. I'm giving up climate for other things. Of course I'll pick the new language, but it's not a requirement that I (or my GF) know it upfront. Programmers can find English speaking jobs easily. So the "big things" are not unknown to me. Also, not having good healthcare is much worse than some grafitti. And mind you, we have all kinds of hatred here. I am part of the Turkish minority and have had it much worse over the years. Western Europe is *much* more tolerant.
What I am interested in is the "small" stuff. Like how exactly are Mustachians doing there.

@some1: Of course. But saving 50% of 100 bucks is better than saving 75% of 50 bucks. I am in about this kind of situation here.  And nope, I prefer settling down in a not-so-cheap location. I have served enough of my cheap location. I prefer societies that are better organized now.

Albert

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 10:24:57 AM »
To make money, Switzerland is a very good choice, especially as long as both you and your partner work. Later, when you have kids, the high cost of living plus super expensive daycare make it less attractive.

If you want to make a lot of money there is probably no better place. Possibly Norway, but I think taxes are significantly higher there. If you wish to save on costs you can live just across the border in Germany, France or Italy and commute for a job in Switzerland. About half a million people are doing it... France in particular is a lot more child friendly. Same could be said about Scandinavia, but of course taxes will eat you alive...

Someone mentioned Estonia. I've been there many times, it's indeed quite well run but average income is only 20-30% of that in US. Climate is very cold so significant heating costs will be a must. I don't think you'd be able to save 50% there unless you'd get a salary several times higher than average.

If I were to be financially independent tomorrow I'd move South. Culturally I love the Mediterranean culture the most.

There is an issue with work permits which are more difficult to obtain for citizens of Bulgaria and Romania than for other EU citizens. Still if you are a good programmer that is unlikely to be a serious obstacle for you.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 11:33:47 AM by Albert »

daverobev

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 11:20:25 AM »
@daverobev - Climate doesn't matter. I'm giving up climate for other things. Of course I'll pick the new language, but it's not a requirement that I (or my GF) know it upfront. Programmers can find English speaking jobs easily. So the "big things" are not unknown to me. Also, not having good healthcare is much worse than some grafitti. And mind you, we have all kinds of hatred here. I am part of the Turkish minority and have had it much worse over the years. Western Europe is *much* more tolerant.
What I am interested in is the "small" stuff. Like how exactly are Mustachians doing there.

Ok - well, I have a friend who works for a UK company as a programmer but lives near Clermont-Ferrand in France. Mind, he lives miles away from the city, up a mountain, and grows a large chunk of his own food - his place was about 100k Euros I think. He's the reclusive type (as am I), but man does he have a nice place now. I mean - for a hermit, right? It's not plush carpeted whatever.

So. Housing in France is not expensive (except Paris, med coast I spose). There are plenty of ex-pat communities. The food is good, and reasonably priced. You have a lot to choose from - ocean, sea, mountains. But the food is good.

My mum lives a couple of hours away from there, too. It's lovely. She has a cellar to go into when it gets too hot (no a/c needed). Lovely rolling hills. But obviously there are plenty of bustling cities that are not Paris or on the med - which is, I presume, what you'd like.

UK - choice of climate - south west is wet but warm, south east drier. Lots of pubs... oh hold on, there's no point me doing this, seeing as I'm in Canada... totally different set of differences.

I would say *good* healthcare in the UK. I support the NHS wholeheartedly. Not as good as France, but good. Lots of diversity between the cities, and most have a good train link to London.

Bit crowded though, mind. 'Specially the south east.

Scotland is lovely but cold and, most importantly, dark in the winter. One nice thing about where I am in Canada is that the winters while f**king freezing are often bright and blue. Wales is also lovely (assuming you're not round the industrial south).

Ireland.. lovely! But wet. Great place - I lived on the south coast, in a little town called Kinsale, for a bit. Not too far from Cork, the second city. Cork is cooool beans man.

Hmm, I spent.. two days in Budapest and was quite taken with it. So.. Hungary, at least to check it out.

2527

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2013, 01:09:59 PM »
My wife's cousin is an IT professional.  He is from Turkey.  At some point he got a job with a German firm in Turkey, and he was then transferred to their offices in Germany.  He handled European-wide IT issues for them, and apparently made a lot of money.  At some point, he was working in Egypt, and then he was hired by part of the royal family of Qatar, and they pay him very well.  He has kept his living expenses low and has been buying land in the developing part of Turkey. 

Whether he will always work abroad, or some day return to Turkey and work in IT or own a business in IT, or live off passive income, I don't know and he probably doesn't either.

So, extrapolating from that, I would say go where you get a good job offer, take things from there, keep your expenses low (you already know how to do that), and invest well.  Global equities?  Any country that is going to provide a job that pays well probably also has a high level of civilization (schools, health care, rule of law, etc).

For a person with a strong skill set, the willingness to work hard, and the ability to speak English, the US is probably the best.

Good luck, and let us know how you do.  Iyi isler.   

loxs

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 01:26:26 PM »
@Jeff L: Yes, that's what I plan on doing. My current employer pays quite well (and extremely well for Bulgarian standards). I save a hefty chunk of my income. After I finish current project with them, I'll try to find a remote job (or if the stars group too well - non-remote job in the country I choose to live in). This still leaves questions open. Mostly - where do I want to live with my upcoming family. And this is not the same as "company of what domicile will I work for?". And this is why I ask here :). Turkey is also an option, though I don't really like where their politicians are heading at the moment. So I still prefer Western Europe. US? Hmm... well... I don't really think all the effort is worth it. It will be much harder to obtain visas for me and my GF, I will have to rely on company patronage. Also, Europe is closer (cheaper to travel) to my Bulgarian relatives and friends, which I will want to visit now and then.

Teşekkürler :)

2527

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2013, 01:33:58 PM »
You may find you end up moving once or twice along the way.  You may be right that the US is just too far, and the whole visa thing is very complicated compared to moving from one EU country to another EU country.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 01:36:19 PM by Jeff L »

Albert

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 01:38:00 PM »
Wouldn't Germany be the safest bet in your situation? Plenty of IT jobs (particularly after you learn German) and you could certainly have a good life there. There are several posters here from that country who could probably provide all the details.

loxs

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 01:40:53 PM »
Yes, Germany and Netherlands are my current favourites. I didn't explicitly name them, as I didn't want to "guide" the discussion.

Albert

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2013, 02:10:03 PM »
Vienna is also very nice and it'd be only 1 1/2 h flight back to Bulgaria whenever you wanted to. Maybe you are not into cities, but from all the German speaking cities I like that place the best. Admittedly I have experience only as a short term visitor.

basd

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Re: Best European Country/City for a Mustachian?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 03:12:01 PM »
Yes, Germany and Netherlands are my current favourites. I didn't explicitly name them, as I didn't want to "guide" the discussion.
Concerning taxes and job opportunities, you'd probably be way better off in Germany. Plus, you've got the opportunity, as someone said, to work in Switzerland and make good money there, then go back to Germany in the evening. Or Luxembourg, from what I've heard the salaries are pretty high over there as well (lots of banks).

France is supposed to have really good healthcare indeed, and property is relatively cheap (outside of Paris and the Cote d'Azur). Be prepared to learn French though, no one speaks (or wants to speak) English there.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!