Author Topic: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule  (Read 3144 times)

CoffeeR

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Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« on: May 11, 2020, 05:17:50 PM »

Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BScK-QyWIo

Interesting introductory video to the concept of retirement spending and the 4% rule.

BTDretire

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 08:00:59 AM »
Watching that makes me glad I'm 65 and don't have to make my money last more than 30 years!
 But, I do think it is very usable information and people should watch.

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 08:17:04 AM »
Glad to see this guy thinks @Exflyboy is OK at least. When the analysis comes out that EFB is running out of money, we should all give up on this FIRE thing.

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2020, 08:20:28 AM »
Also - solution is apparently what we might term "Barista FIRE", or "don't RE".

Not sure we need droning (seriously - Mr. Felix needs to punch these up a lot, this is a Ben Stein-esque presentation) for 15 minutes to get to "continuing to have an income from work reduces your risk of running out of money".

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2020, 09:49:02 AM »
Wow that was bad.  I've never seen this guy before.  Is he really ignorant of the facts or is he trying to mislead his audience?  Reading the 4% sticky on this board in the investment area would provide much better coverage of the issues around the 4% rule of thumb.  Just to pick out a few of the worst sections of the video:
*Note* my phone dropped its connection partway through the video.  I think I picked up in the same spot, but there's a chance I missed him reference something (like the earnings rules changes or a mention of S.S.) that I called out below.  If so please let me know and I'll modify my post. 

1.  He spends a good deal of time on CAPE and earnings yield, but unless I missed it he doesn't talk about the change in the earning rules around the late 1990s.  This means the definition of the denominator of CAPE - earnings - was redefined.  As a result, we would expect to see higher CAPE values following the change.  And, lo and behold that's exactly what the data show.  It's a little like if a soccer coach took 100+ years of historical data on when and where to take a shot on goal and taught her players not to shoot outside that range.  If the net size had been doubled around 2000 and tons of goals had been scored during the past 20 years from places that were formerly bad shots and she told her players not to adjust because historically (when the net was smaller) those shots wouldn't have gone in she would be fired.  That's what this guy is saying in financial terms.  Either he doesn't know this, in which case he's ignorant of very basic facts, or he does know it but he's intentionally misleading his audience.  Either way, that's strike #1.
2.  What would you think of someone who talks about retirement and doesn't mention Social Security?  Seriously?  I'm assuming that this guy is based in the U.S. based on his accent, and I suspect other countries that have audiences for this type of video have something similar.  Most people who retire early can expect something from S.S., and I suspect that people who FIRE really early generally made significant money while working and are going to get a substantial amount.  I FIREd at 42 and if S.S. pays out 100% to me then at about age 67 all of my planned budget will be covered by S.S. alone.  I expect changes to S.S. before then so I'm only planning on getting about 2/3 of my currently forecast benefit, but that's still a huge chunk of money that will arrive well before 30 years are up.  Even if he's assuming that S.S. can't be relied upon at all, that's a very substantial assumption that should be called out explicitly.  Either way, completely ignoring Social Security in a post about retirement is really appalling. For most people (and I think most U.S. FIREes fall into this category) S.S. is very likely to provide a substantial portion of their income well within the first 30 years of retirement.  Strike #2.
3.  He makes the very, very common error of conflating two different concepts - planning for an amount to support FIRE and withdrawal strategies.  The 4% rule was never intended to provide a guide to withdrawals.  It was intended as a rule of thumb (a term he does use at the beginning) to get potential retirees into the ballpark with a bunch of assumptions baked in.  I have never heard anyone knowledgeable suggest blindly following the 4% "rule" for actual withdrawals.  The error here is essentially mistaking the map for the route.  If I plan a road trip, I certainly will look at a map to plan where I'm going to drive.  But if I find traffic, want a cup of coffee, or see an interesting roadside attraction I'm going to change it up.  People who make the error of thinking of the 4% "rule" as a withdrawal guide are like a driver who tapes the map to the inside of their windshield when they set out on a road trip.  Strike 3.

There are a bunch of other problems with this video, but those 3 struck me as the most egregious. 

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2020, 09:55:50 AM »
He's actually a Canadian Financial Advisor . . .

Exflyboy

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 09:56:58 AM »
Glad to see this guy thinks @Exflyboy is OK at least. When the analysis comes out that EFB is running out of money, we should all give up on this FIRE thing.

I'm running out of money?.. And I was having SUCH a lovely morning..:)

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2020, 09:59:24 AM »
He's actually a Canadian Financial Advisor . . .

Thank you for the correction.  Does Canada have something similar to Social Security in the U.S.? 

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2020, 10:02:16 AM »
https://www.pwlcapital.com/profile/benjamin-felix/

You know what a good "Barista FIRE" job is? Managing millionaire's portfolios.

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2020, 10:02:54 AM »
He's actually a Canadian Financial Advisor . . .

Thank you for the correction.  Does Canada have something similar to Social Security in the U.S.?

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp.html

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2020, 10:12:22 AM »
He's actually a Canadian Financial Advisor . . .

Thank you for the correction.  Does Canada have something similar to Social Security in the U.S.?

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp.html

Thank you again. 

HeadedWest2029

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2020, 11:30:04 AM »
I don't find anything he said unreasonable.  I do agree that he should have mentioned social security is NOT factored into the 4% rule.  I've followed his channel on YouTube for a bit and he generally is trying to reach a broad audience, so I don't view this as him dunking on FIRE people or proponents of the 4% rule, but rather showing there's more nuance involved than what is typically conveyed with...just save 25x spending and you're good.  Honestly, I'm surprised how many people take the plunge using the 4% rule without even reading up on the underlying assumptions that were used in the original studies.  RTFM

In other words, I'm more on team Big ERN vs MMM when it comes to the 4% rule. 

beee

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2020, 11:59:45 AM »

dandarc

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2020, 01:40:51 PM »
Glad to see this guy thinks @Exflyboy is OK at least. When the analysis comes out that EFB is running out of money, we should all give up on this FIRE thing.

I'm running out of money?.. And I was having SUCH a lovely morning..:)
Last I saw you were still at a sub 2% WR - so even the esteemed Mr. Felix seems to think you're OK.

Exflyboy

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2020, 03:35:26 PM »
Glad to see this guy thinks @Exflyboy is OK at least. When the analysis comes out that EFB is running out of money, we should all give up on this FIRE thing.

I'm running out of money?.. And I was having SUCH a lovely morning..:)
Last I saw you were still at a sub 2% WR - so even the esteemed Mr. Felix seems to think you're OK.

Under 1% with the lockdown....:)

CoffeeR

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2020, 06:15:43 PM »
He's actually a Canadian Financial Advisor . . .

Thank you for the correction.  Does Canada have something similar to Social Security in the U.S.?

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp.html

Thank you again.

He mentions CPP in his other 4% & FIRE video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7rH7h7ljHg

(from Sep 14, 2018). If you disliked the video referenced in the first post, you will not like this one. I find this video informative as well. He addresses retirement periods, other studies, mutual fund fees, fees for financial advice, etc. To me the upshot (which is not news to most of us) is that the 4% rule is a starting point for planning and is you want a reasonable safe withdrawal rate it probably needs to be a variable one. Flexibility and making adjustments are the key... most of here know this already.

Telecaster

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2020, 06:55:00 PM »
There are a bunch of other problems with this video, but those 3 struck me as the most egregious.

My eyes glazed over and had to quit watching.  Did the guy eventually have an original thought? 


Indexer

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2020, 07:45:01 PM »
The first 9 minutes wasn't bad. I didn't learn anything new, but I agreed with most of it. I had to stop watching when he said the earnings yield is the inverse of the Shiller CAPE ratio.

That's not true, and I could foresee how he was going to use that incorrect data to justify his argument. The earnings yield is the inverse of the trailing P/E ratio. Example: PE ratio of 20, 1/20 = 5% earnings yield.

I don't think the 4% withdrawal is perfect, but it was never meant to be. It was designed to find the fine line between yielding highly successful retirements while remaining realistic for savers. He mentioned a 95% historical success rate in the video. The numbers I've seen from investments firms is that it might be 85-90% now. Okay, that's still good, especially if you have variable expenses you can throttle down during a crisis year(like now).

If you want a 99% success rate aim for a 3.5% withdrawal rate. It's all risk VS return, find what is comfortable for you.

BussoV6

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Re: Ben Felix discusses the 4% rule
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2020, 03:47:55 AM »
Glad to see this guy thinks @Exflyboy is OK at least. When the analysis comes out that EFB is running out of money, we should all give up on this FIRE thing.

I'm running out of money?.. And I was having SUCH a lovely morning..:)
Last I saw you were still at a sub 2% WR - so even the esteemed Mr. Felix seems to think you're OK.

Under 1% with the lockdown....:)
Me to. Perhaps we're doing it wrong ;-).

But we all know you are planning a long and exciting retirement... :-)