Awkward Income Related Social Situations?

[2Birds1Stone]

In my family and circle of friends, for the most part we all used to come from a very similar economic background (lower/lower middle class)

While some of my friends definitely have great careers and relatively high incomes (compared to the USA, not nec my area). Their spending keeps them in a constant struggle to make ends meet. The majority of them however earn average incomes and spend well above average.

We tend to do lots of low cost stuff, and when they do want to go out to eat, go on a trip, or what I would look at as splurging we are happy to go and participate since we save a ton of $$ in many areas. More often then not, they like to complain about the cost of whatever it is we are doing, or complain about $$ in general and my SO and I just can't relate.

I'm starting to get into some more awkward situations now that many people I am close to know my success at work and probably assume I spend most of that $$. It's not like people have been coming to me for loans, but conversations sometimes take a turn down a road I don't want to travel.

Anyone else experience something similar? It's not like the SO and I are loaded, but we make ~2X the median household income for our area, and live as though we made less than half that.

[okits]

What truths are you trying to avoid disclosing? 

"No, we aren't buying stuff like that"?
"We are avid savers"?
"I'm aiming to retire in X years"?
"I don't enjoy a wasteful, consumerist lifestyle"?

A bit more detail and I'm sure the forum members can offer up some easy conversational dodges.

[Villanelle]

Can you be more specific?  What kinds of turns do these conversations take?

DH and I probably have a higher net worth and savings rate than them. But it never really comes up, in part because we certainly don't look wealthy.  We have a few areas where we splurge, but we have simple old cars, modest housing, etc.

If our friends complain about how expensive something it, I'd probably agree.  Even if I can afford it, it's still expensive.  If they talk about their financial struggles, I sympathize or make suggestions if I have them, but I don't really bring up our situation in comparison.  If they comment on how "lucky" I am to be able to afford a vacation or because we don't have kids, I generally say, "we've definitely been very lucky.  And of course there's the fact that I drive a 2000 Toyota Echo, and that we are in this small 1 bath apartment.  It's not always fun, but those things definitely help!"  They may or may not get the underlying point. 

[sun and sand]

I know some talk about my lifestyle choices.  I rent two bedrooms in my home to foreign language students. I like the extra income but my friends find it 'weird' and say they could never do that. I am a single parent with an autistic son. Having people around is good for my son.  Doing the best I can. Do not buy many new clothes, or shoes, forget about purses, but love my life. They tell me I should really buy some new clothes and they would be happy to go out with me to do so. It is awkward because I do not want to say that I do not have the money for that. Best vacations have been when we did home exchanges.  Questions were like, "Ooooh, you let people in YOUR HOUSE!?!?!"
 Have a great duplex in the city, my coastal home, a condo that is currently being built and my own home. My friends are trying to figure out if I am rich or poor;I am neither. They question how much I could sell this for;  how much are homes around here going for ?;etc.   This whole keeping track of others is extremely uncomfortable for me.  I could care less how much my friends have.  They have good jobs, fancy clothes, go on lovely vacations and I am happy for them since that is what they desire.
I never ask others about their financial situation, so I find it awkward when I am asked.

[aceyou]

I think most of my good friends know that my wife and I live on about half our income.  A couple of them make jokes about how I'm cheap just in fun, but really they understand that I just have different goals they respect me for it.  One of my friends and his girlfriend have actually joined me and I think they have a higher savings rate than we do. 

My parents have 8 and 11 siblings, so I have 33 aunts and uncles!  My side of the extended family is generally affluent, so my lifestyle doesn't pop out to them at all. Furthermore, it's common to talk with my relatives about finance related topics.  My parents and one of my uncles helped me set up an LLC a few years ago (uncle manages holdings for a large real estate investor).  Some cousins and another uncle have given me tax advice (they are accountants).  Another is a multi-millionaire due to inventing a better way of building a sensor that goes into a car, he split from General Motors, and formed his own company making the part and getting a patent.  They are interesting people and generally very supportive of how my wife and I live.  Money is talked about pretty openly, and I got to be part of the conversation at a young age.

My wife's extended family is overall less affluent and many do not have a general understanding of finances, savings, or have high incomes.  For example, one of them, who is flat broke, met a guy, a month later went on a trip with him to Texas, they came back to Michigan with a new 25k souped up mega truck, and announced they got married while they were down there.  That's more than I've spend on every vehicle I've ever owned combined...and don't even get me started on the marriage decision:)  Stories like that are more typical on her side, but there are exceptions. 

It's not that I hide things per se when talking with certain people, it's just that certain things typically don't ever come up.  There's no chain of events in a conversation with many relatives/friends that would ever lead to talk about investing, savings, finance, etc, because that's not even on their mind. 

[MrsStubble]

We have friends who are just realizing we have money socked away. They haven't outright asked for it yet, but they've hinted twice that they wouldn't mind borrowing some (once for their expensive wedding, and once in regards to one of their extended family members having self-induced financial problems).  Both times they got an anecdotal dose of MMM face-punch just b/c of the conversation.  They haven't had the nerve to ask outright yet, but they know us well enough to know they'll get an earful if they do.   

Beyond that i'm finding it's getting very awkward with friends and family alike.  My husband and I are both the youngest of our siblings and both families seem to think we can't possibly know anything because we're just too young, naive, foolish, etc?  Not sure, but they've outright told us both on more then one occasion that we don't know what we're talking about.  Our families think we're stupid for not traveling more and our friends just think we're cheap because we don't want to go out to eat and drink every Thurs-Sun.   Can't win, we've joined a hiking club for DINKS to at least try to find some other people to hang out with.   

[Villanelle]

We have friends who are just realizing we have money socked away. They haven't outright asked for it yet, but they've hinted twice that they wouldn't mind borrowing some (once for their expensive wedding, and once in regards to one of their extended family members having self-induced financial problems).  Both times they got an anecdotal dose of MMM face-punch just b/c of the conversation.  They haven't had the nerve to ask outright yet, but they know us well enough to know they'll get an earful if they do.   

Beyond that i'm finding it's getting very awkward with friends and family alike.  My husband and I are both the youngest of our siblings and both families seem to think we can't possibly know anything because we're just too young, naive, foolish, etc?  Not sure, but they've outright told us both on more then one occasion that we don't know what we're talking about.  Our families think we're stupid for not traveling more and our friends just think we're cheap because we don't want to go out to eat and drink every Thurs-Sun.   Can't win, we've joined a hiking club for DINKS to at least try to find some other people to hang out with.

How do they know this?  When this topic comes up on these boards, as it often does, I never really understand that.  Do they know what you make, what debts you [don't] have?  How much you spend on utilities?  Whether you are supporting family members? What you are putting away--or not--for college for any kids?  My friends have no idea how much we put away, either as a % or a dollar amount, or what our net worth is or anything else.  We don't announce it, and how else would they know?  Unless you are in some super high income profession and living on a fraction of that massive income where it is obvious that you are most likely squirreling away gobs of money (e.g. an I-banker who drives a 1996 Corolla and lives in a studio apartment), I don't understand how people know your financial situation.

If and when friends or family do ever ask us for money, the answer will be, "sorry, we don't have any extra money to use for a loan."  (Assuming we aren't prepared to give them money.) And that's true.  None of our money is just *extra*. But I think they are unlikely to ask unless totally desperate and basically at the point where they are asking everyone, because we don't look like people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested. 

[big_slacker]

Usually the awkward comes up when it's about an expense costing $x (Like a car, a year of pre-school in an HCOL area or whatever) people will bitch or ask about the credit % or monthly payment and you say you just wrote a check. You can see it doesn't compute that someone would be able to do that, *OR* that anyone who could is waving that around in a rich guy bragging type of way as opposed to a 'whew, I'm glad I saved so I didn't have to owe the bank' type of way.

I always make it a point to say something like, 'That's why I only own 6 t-shirts and ride my bike to work, I hate owing the bank anything'. That usually defuses the awkward because it removes the thought that you might be bragging about being daddy warbucks instead of just being a regular guy that's frugal.

[Villanelle]

Usually the awkward comes up when it's about an expense costing $x (Like a car, a year of pre-school in an HCOL area or whatever) people will bitch or ask about the credit % or monthly payment and you say you just wrote a check. You can see it doesn't compute that someone would be able to do that, *OR* that anyone who could is waving that around in a rich guy bragging type of way as opposed to a 'whew, I'm glad I saved so I didn't have to owe the bank' type of way.

I always make it a point to say something like, 'That's why I only own 6 t-shirts and ride my bike to work, I hate owing the bank anything'. That usually defuses the awkward because it removes the thought that you might be bragging about being daddy warbucks instead of just being a regular guy that's frugal.

So don't say you just wrote a check.  If they were talking about my car, I'd make a joke that a 16 year old Echo without power windows my be ugly, but that's reflected in the price, which is nice. That's the upside to driving a car no one wants I guess!" If they are talking about their new car, I'd murmur sympathetic things. "Wow!  A $600 car payment!  That really does suck!"  Or, "I know preschool cost is insane.  It would sure be nice to have that money for vacations and foot massages."  No need to mention that you paid it in full up front. If someone asked, I wouldn't lie, but generally the people I am friends with are polite enough not to as a ride (and fairly random) question like that.

[jrhampt]

I am just enjoying the Echo love in this thread...mine is a 2001 and people act like they have completely forgotten how manual locks and windows work.

[Warlord1986]

A decade or so ago I went to a church picnic and was talking to one of my Daddy's Knights of Columbus friends. The guy called my father 'Ol' Moneybucks' and I felt pretty awkward and mortified. Daddy is very frugal, he worked hard for decades, and he doesn't brag about his savings. Nobody else in that group had any idea how money can work for you (they're all trucks and timeshares guys). I really didn't appreciate that conversation, although I doubt the guy was trying to make me uncomfortable. It just cemented the idea that my money (and my parents' money) is nobody else's business.

[Apples]

Friends start to realize you have money socked away when you can afford to replace/fix something that has broken, fix something on the car, deal with a health crisis, etc. and are NOT complaining to them about bills.  Because they would certainly be worried about bills.  We fixed something on our car and replaced a fridge in the same 2 week span.  Being in our mid 20's, that's a bit of a feat in most of our friend circle.  Also, we were both only working about 1/2 time that month as a close family member was in the hospital.  Friends started to realize we had some amount of savings.  Or if you buy 2-4 year used car and don't talk about financing, instead of the ancient Echo you like to bring up-that's a clue.  Also, if the couple are DINKs and in careers that would generally be considered above working class or middle class, depending on the neighborhood.

Oh, and I have the kind of inlaws that would make assumptions based on our career fields, and then make awkward hints about financial situations.  Like "what's your payment on that car?" or really notice that we could get last minute flight tickets for a funeral, no problem.  Or honestly, even just paying $350 has wiped out some family members, so us talking about paying for an insurance inspection (which ran exactly that expensive for them) would be a sign.  Of course people could assume we're in credit card debt, but generally people don't assume that about each other.  At least I don't think they do.

And +1 to whoever talked about driving into town to find friends.  I'm starting to go this route.  It sucks that that means all of my friends are 20-45 minutes away though.  Makes it tough to visit.

[2Birds1Stone]

Some interesting scenarios and ideas here folks.

For me it was a couple of things...

1) Purchasing a $17k car for cash
2) Going on vacation and actually paying for it up front vs opening a CC to do it......(normal in my circle of friends)
3) Making Presidents Club at work. They know I blew my quota out of the water last year and obviously had a healthy income
4) We can never relate to any of their $$ problems
5) We never stress about a potential employment issue since our savings are adequate. These folks like to stress about "what if" scenarios.

[okits]

Some interesting scenarios and ideas here folks.

For me it was a couple of things...

1) Purchasing a $17k car for cash
2) Going on vacation and actually paying for it up front vs opening a CC to do it......(normal in my circle of friends)
3) Making Presidents Club at work. They know I blew my quota out of the water last year and obviously had a healthy income
4) We can never relate to any of their $$ problems
5) We never stress about a potential employment issue since our savings are adequate. These folks like to stress about "what if" scenarios.

Hmm.  Well, if uncomfortable questions or requests come up you could go on the offensive and suggest ways to be frugal (things they might really be open to, like cooking at home, or just things to make them back away, like reusing dryer sheets, rinsing out ziploc bags, etc.)  I agree that if anyone is truly paying attention, they can probably guess from your behaviour and casual conversations that you're doing okay.  Anyone who wants to pry, invite them to jump on the bandwagon.

I see there's a slice of cake beside your posting profile, so happy birthday!  :-)

[2Birds1Stone]

Some interesting scenarios and ideas here folks.

For me it was a couple of things...

1) Purchasing a $17k car for cash
2) Going on vacation and actually paying for it up front vs opening a CC to do it......(normal in my circle of friends)
3) Making Presidents Club at work. They know I blew my quota out of the water last year and obviously had a healthy income
4) We can never relate to any of their $$ problems
5) We never stress about a potential employment issue since our savings are adequate. These folks like to stress about "what if" scenarios.

Hmm.  Well, if uncomfortable questions or requests come up you could go on the offensive and suggest ways to be frugal (things they might really be open to, like cooking at home, or just things to make them back away, like reusing dryer sheets, rinsing out ziploc bags, etc.)  I agree that if anyone is truly paying attention, they can probably guess from your behaviour and casual conversations that you're doing okay.  Anyone who wants to pry, invite them to jump on the bandwagon.

I see there's a slice of cake beside your posting profile, so happy birthday!  :-)

Thank you :)

[mm1970]

Some interesting scenarios and ideas here folks.

For me it was a couple of things...

1) Purchasing a $17k car for cash
2) Going on vacation and actually paying for it up front vs opening a CC to do it......(normal in my circle of friends)
3) Making Presidents Club at work. They know I blew my quota out of the water last year and obviously had a healthy income
4) We can never relate to any of their $$ problems
5) We never stress about a potential employment issue since our savings are adequate. These folks like to stress about "what if" scenarios.

Hmm.  Well, if uncomfortable questions or requests come up you could go on the offensive and suggest ways to be frugal (things they might really be open to, like cooking at home, or just things to make them back away, like reusing dryer sheets, rinsing out ziploc bags, etc.)  I agree that if anyone is truly paying attention, they can probably guess from your behaviour and casual conversations that you're doing okay.  Anyone who wants to pry, invite them to jump on the bandwagon.

I see there's a slice of cake beside your posting profile, so happy birthday!  :-)

Thank you :)

Ha!  I learn something new every day.  I didn't know about the cake function.

[OutlierinMA]

This is very interesting, and it is true that you have to be careful about how you talk around non-Mustachians, or Muggles, as I like to think of them.

Unfortunately, my boyfriend likes to spontaneously share things like "We're shopping for a cheaper house, because Outlier is going to retire," or "We're paying cash for the new house." I feel like these things are out of the realm of possibility for most people, so it makes me SO uncomfortable.

It is hard to go from there to chatting about how basic frugality got me to this point. I have discussed with him, though, and "retire" has been replaced by "work from home;" hopefully paying cash for the house won't come up again!

[Vanguards and Lentils]

If our friends complain about how expensive something it, I'd probably agree.  Even if I can afford it, it's still expensive.  If they talk about their financial struggles, I sympathize or make suggestions if I have them, but I don't really bring up our situation in comparison.  If they comment on how "lucky" I am to be able to afford a vacation or because we don't have kids, I generally say, "we've definitely been very lucky.  And of course there's the fact that I drive a 2000 Toyota Echo, and that we are in this small 1 bath apartment.  It's not always fun, but those things definitely help!"  They may or may not get the underlying point.

Very classy - I will need to keep these in mind.

As a grad student on a stipend, most of my colleagues make the same as I, +/- $1k. So I wouldn't say there's any income-related awkwardness per se. However I do remember these recent conversations:

• Learning that my classmates from abroad can't take any deductions or exemptions, even the one who's married with two kids. So I make a lot more than them post-tax; which just makes me feel guilty...
• While sharing with a classmate who was interested in doing bank bonuses, he commented that one required a lot of extra cash. It was just leaving $500 in the account for a couple months. I just couldn't think of anything to say. He's also married with a working spouse, and I know he just financed a 2nd car and drives to campus even though practically all of us bike the <10 minutes to campus or use the $5/month bus pass. Oh and I've already tried lightly suggesting those commuting ideas to him but whatever, wasters gonna waste.

[bluecollarmusician]

Some interesting scenarios and ideas here folks.

For me it was a couple of things...

1) Purchasing a $17k car for cash
2) Going on vacation and actually paying for it up front vs opening a CC to do it......(normal in my circle of friends)
3) Making Presidents Club at work. They know I blew my quota out of the water last year and obviously had a healthy income
4) We can never relate to any of their $$ problems
5) We never stress about a potential employment issue since our savings are adequate. These folks like to stress about "what if" scenarios.

Hey 2 Birds!  Happy Birthday!!!

I have dealt with some similar scenarios- although I don't think it is as bad, since my official salary is pretty low.

Here's how I would handle these issues-

1) I just wouldn't mention that I paid cash.
2)ditto, or I might just say we had been setting aside the money month to month for a vacay since last year.
3) :-)  My clear advantage- although the people that know we dabble in Real Estate know there is some rent money, etc. but they don't know how much
4)I can't relate, but mostly just nod my head, and when people mention how it must be a struggle since BCW doesn't work, I just say well, there's a reason we drive cheap cars.... (HA!  When I buy the Porsche I will need to come up with a new line! BTW since watching the Porsche vid I can't stop thinking about a customized classic ;-) )

5) More head nodding.

I feel you... it can be uncomfortable for me too.  Although, mostly people can't figure out how BCW stays home and we don't seem to struggle.  I think most of them think we have a trust fund... but the truth is what I tell them- just be careful with your money.

[RedmondStash]

I haven't really dealt with a lot of discomfort around this stuff. It helps that most folks who know me well enough to know we're close to FI also know that I have some serious chronic health issues, so early retirement for me is more of a necessity than a luxury. We don't have "extra"; we're getting close to having what we need.

But to keep those questions and the assumptions that go with them from cropping up, I do sometimes stress that I hate shopping, I almost never buy things, and hey, if you want to learn how to save money and build toward FI, I can point you toward some great online resources! Then people's eyes glaze over like you're a missionary at their door trying to sell them on a religion they don't believe in, and they quickly change the subject or end the conversation. It's really pretty funny. "Have you heard the good word?"

I also say things like:
- "I'm allergic to interest payments."
- "My parents taught me never to take on debt."
- "Yeah, we paid cash for my husband's car. We had to save up for years to do that."
- "And that's why I bring lunch in almost every day."

The other thing I do is encourage them to talk about themselves, and just listen and offer support without necessarily reflecting that I am not dealing with those particular financial issues. People are often pleased and touched when you genuinely want to know more about them and their lives.

[BTDretire]

Hmm! Didn't think much of it at the time, but ya, at a family dinner one of the neices started
talking about how we must have seven figures now. It seems to be family chatter that the small
business my wife and I have makes so much money. Much of the family is in some type of self employment, but it seems they think we make a lot of money. Their thinking is exagerated, we make a decent living, but under $100,000 for the two of us combined.
  Anyway when she brought it up, we just kind of kept quite and didn't respond. Her husband
stepped in and said, I don't think that's something you should be talking about.
  Our earnings per hr is around $15, but we average 110 hours a week (or more) for the two of us.
If Bernie gets his $15 an hr wage, I'll be unhappy that some unexperienced 16 yr old is getting paid as much as me with 40 yrs experience.
 BTW, she is right we are at about 35 times our yearly expenses, but only because of Mustachian living, well before we knew what Mustachian living was. But, it's none of her business what our NW is.
 

[NESailor]

How do they know this? 

Someone already mentioned it but in our case it's inferred from the discrepancy between career choice (CPA in my case and teacher for a wife) and the apparent lack of (frivolous) spending:  our "new" car is an '08 Honda Fit, we live in a 60 year old fixer upper with a sagging roof and mismatched siding, we don't eat out or take multiple vacations, and I don't have a project car or a project motorcycle.  Contrast that with most of our friends who spend MORE in every category while their household income is no higher and in many cases much lower than ours.

Anyway, I try to keep quieter about our progress now - I have to admit I was quite excited to share the benefits of frugality early on - and answer any awkward inquiry with "I don't like waste".

[MoneyCat]

The most difficult problem I have is jealousy from family members. They get jealous of me because I have an emergency fund, investments, can go on vacations a couple times a year, and I am generally happier than they are. They are the ones who chose to "buy" lots of new furniture and electronic gadgets from Rent-A-Center, buy a new car at high interest rates, invest nothing, pay for premium cable, etc. Yes, I'm aware that a lot of what happens to us economically is influenced by other people, but they take absolutely no responsibility for their own actions and they get jealous of me. There's nothing I am doing that they can't also do. Easily.

[prognastat]

For me friends and coworkers don't have a clue about my finances and I thankfully work in a place where flaunting wealth is not generally done so my not wearing fancy clothing or not having a luxury car aren't thought of as strange. I don't tend to talk about money with friends except sometimes declining doing something saying I don't have the money for it right now, which to me is true if I would have to take money out of our savings account/emergency fund so I'm sure they think we aren't that well off.

As for family I'm sure they know we are doing well enough since both me and my wife have had multiple promotions over the past few years, but we don't generally talk about specifics. Generally my both sides the parents don't care. My SIL seems to feel like sometimes we should help out with things such as buying presents for the parents since we are doing ok and she might be tight on money because it was spent on something frivolous the week before. She doesn't outright ask for money thankfully though because she lives about as unmustachian as possible and seems to think the only reason we are financially doing better despite being about 7 years younger is that she hasn't been as financially "lucky" as we have been. Sure both of us have been lucky to come in to careers that pay pretty well and have gotten better over the years. However she is very much the type that if she did catch a break and get a large increase in yearly income spending would increase to match. Currently we make up to twice what they make yearly yet we spend less than they do.

[Mmm_Donuts]

The thing that drives me crazy is when friends and relatives comment on DH being unemployed, and me being what they think of as underemployed. Because we're quite frugal in comparison , it comes across that we are struggling to make ends meet, when in fact we are doing fine financially. DH refuses to call himself "retired" so every time we see certain friends and relatives they start asking "So, any work prospects yet?" And he always says no not yet, and leaves it at that. It is making me crazy! The unspoken assumption is that we must be in trouble, and that we both should be looking harder for work, and taking any job possible. But the truth is we are fine. I just don't want people to feel sorry for us, but it's none of their business to know what out finances are like, and I don't really want to share that information.

[2Birds1Stone]

Another awkward one the past two years is getting asked for specific gifts for holidays/birthdays from my brother.

He was under/unemployed for many year out of college. We usually exchanged gifts in the $40-50 range.

Suddenly after I changed careers and he know I was making more $$ he started asking for much more extravagant things....nothing CRAZY but stuff that costs $100-125 is still a 200-300% increase. I don't like to exchange gifts with most people and am looking for a way to break the cycle with my family.

Gifts are a HUGE part of the ethnic culture and it seems the expectation is income based on the value of the gifts. SO and I have been doing more regifting, homemade gifts, etc etc but it's still annoying to deal with and gives me anxiety around what should be joyous occasions.

[Mr. Green]

Another awkward one the past two years is getting asked for specific gifts for holidays/birthdays from my brother.

He was under/unemployed for many year out of college. We usually exchanged gifts in the $40-50 range.

Suddenly after I changed careers and he know I was making more $$ he started asking for much more extravagant things....nothing CRAZY but stuff that costs $100-125 is still a 200-300% increase. I don't like to exchange gifts with most people and am looking for a way to break the cycle with my family.

Gifts are a HUGE part of the ethnic culture and it seems the expectation is income based on the value of the gifts. SO and I have been doing more regifting, homemade gifts, etc etc but it's still annoying to deal with and gives me anxiety around what should be joyous occasions.

Something that I've found very humorous is that as we approach FIRE I've become a terrible gift giver. As my values have changed, focusing more on experiences and caring less about money, I just don't pay attention to material things. I find myself racking my brain for what to give someone. It's a good thing surveys show people really like getting gift cards!

[Cassie]

  I find it interesting that people that spend all their $ are then jealous of people that save and have more $.

[RWD]

It's a good thing surveys show people really like getting gift cards!

Gift cards are something I've never understood. It's like cash that you can only use at one place. Yet just gifting cash has a negative stigma...? People are weird.

[Villanelle]

It's interesting that some people think lack of frivolous spending causes their friends and family to think they must have money.  I'd say it's generally been the opposite in my world.  I guess they figure no one would drive a crappy car or live in a small apartment if they had available money, so we must be pretty broke. Because in most people's worlds, that's the case. If they have money, they spend it on nicer things, so they see the level of one's stuff as an accurate indication of their financial status, when in fact, as we all know, it's often the opposite.  Fancy stuff means you've spent all your money and are broke, and plain, simple stuff means maybe you saved something instead of upgrading. 

It's a good thing surveys show people really like getting gift cards!

Gift cards are something I've never understood. It's like cash that you can only use at one place. Yet just gifting cash has a negative stigma...? People are weird.

I think a lot of people look at it as a forced extravagance, which they see as a good thing.  Most gift cards given as presents aren't to gas stations or grocery stores.  They are to movie theaters and spas and clothing stores, so it sort of forces the person to go out and do something for themselves, whereas cash might just become part of the regular monthly expenses.  For people who look at it life a certain way, that's a good thing. 

[Rural]

It's interesting that some people think lack of frivolous spending causes their friends and family to think they must have money.  I'd say it's generally been the opposite in my world.  I guess they figure no one would drive a crappy car or live in a small apartment if they had available money, so we must be pretty broke. Because in most people's worlds, that's the case. If they have money, they spend it on nicer things, so they see the level of one's stuff as an accurate indication of their financial status, when in fact, as we all know, it's often the opposite.  Fancy stuff means you've spent all your money and are broke, and plain, simple stuff means maybe you saved something instead of upgrading. 

It's a good thing surveys show people really like getting gift cards!

Gift cards are something I've never understood. It's like cash that you can only use at one place. Yet just gifting cash has a negative stigma...? People are weird.

I think a lot of people look at it as a forced extravagance, which they see as a good thing.  Most gift cards given as presents aren't to gas stations or grocery stores.  They are to movie theaters and spas and clothing stores, so it sort of forces the person to go out and do something for themselves, whereas cash might just become part of the regular monthly expenses.  For people who look at it life a certain way, that's a good thing.

Sometimes it's also nice for those of us who are extremely frugal, too. As a thank-you for organizing my parent's 50th anniversary party a few years ago, my mother gave me a gift certificate for a massage and a lecture about letting other people do something nice for me sometimes and not feeling guilty about spending the money on what it was gifted for. That massage was the most guilt-free indulgence I've ever had, because instead of it being "wrong" (in my mind, you understand) to spend any money on myself, she'd managed to make it "wrong" to put that gift into savings. Happily, my mother knows me well, knew I would like the massage (needed it for pain, really), and can very comfortably afford it.

[big_owl]

This is sort of strange to me because I don't think I've ever had a single conversation about money where I actually felt awkward about it.  We're very high earners and save a lot of it, but generally when we do buy something we buy nice stuff - it's not like we act poor.  We certainly don't go around bragging about FIRE or how much we make (why would an emergency fund even come up in day-to-day conversation?).  Some of my coworkers know about my ER plans and they don't get awkward with me.  Maybe it depends on your type of friends?  I don't know, I have a hard time seeing how a lot of these problems would even come up unless you were projecting a weird vibe about money to people in the first place.

[zinethstache]

DH REd long ago at 43, now finally we're making the big moves for us to slow travel.

No one is giving us a hard time at all. I've had a severe back injury that took three surgeries to resolve and it is the main reason for me to escalate my RE plans.

Everyone is very supportive.

At work I just talk about moving from 2200 sf to a tiny home of 350sf. Everyone is jealous of the baggage we are getting rid of!

Oh we still have many house chores as we own rentals, in fact its those rentals and all the work involved that helped me convince DH to go with slow travel.

No one dares ask us for loans, I am sure they assume we have huge medical bills etc. and they know we will be "fixed" income once Im done with work.

Though we did buy a brand new fifth wheel trailer, our truck we bought to tow it is a 2004. All our cars are older. We have no debt...except our mortgages:)

[lizzzi]

I find it best just not to discuss money, or make the kind of comments that make me sound like I'm rich or poor--you know what I mean--not really identifying myself financially. I live in a small house, drive an older car, dress mostly in jeans, tees, hoodies--yes, I can afford more than that, but there's no reason for people to know that. If the subject of finance comes up at all, I usually say something very generic and slightly humorous, like, "Oh, I'm so conservative I'm probably going backwards." My neighbors just had a lot of work done on their house, and the woman said airily, "Oh yeah, that's what home loans are for!" And shortly after that, I was talking to the husband, and he was pointing out their new, leased SUV. (Leased! Good lord.) But I just kind of said "hmmmm" and a couple conventionally polite nothings, and didn't mention that I just paid cash for my new heating/cooling system, and would no more lease a car than jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.

[big_owl]

I find it best just not to discuss money, or make the kind of comments that make me sound like I'm rich or poor--you know what I mean--not really identifying myself financially. I live in a small house, drive an older car, dress mostly in jeans, tees, hoodies--yes, I can afford more than that, but there's no reason for people to know that. If the subject of finance comes up at all, I usually say something very generic and slightly humorous, like, "Oh, I'm so conservative I'm probably going backwards." My neighbors just had a lot of work done on their house, and the woman said airily, "Oh yeah, that's what home loans are for!" And shortly after that, I was talking to the husband, and he was pointing out their new, leased SUV. (Leased! Good lord.) But I just kind of said "hmmmm" and a couple conventionally polite nothings, and didn't mention that I just paid cash for my new heating/cooling system, and would no more lease a car than jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.

+1  I just adapt my philosophy to whatever that of the group is without being too forthcoming.  Seems to work every time.

[Villanelle]

I find it best just not to discuss money, or make the kind of comments that make me sound like I'm rich or poor--you know what I mean--not really identifying myself financially. I live in a small house, drive an older car, dress mostly in jeans, tees, hoodies--yes, I can afford more than that, but there's no reason for people to know that. If the subject of finance comes up at all, I usually say something very generic and slightly humorous, like, "Oh, I'm so conservative I'm probably going backwards." My neighbors just had a lot of work done on their house, and the woman said airily, "Oh yeah, that's what home loans are for!" And shortly after that, I was talking to the husband, and he was pointing out their new, leased SUV. (Leased! Good lord.) But I just kind of said "hmmmm" and a couple conventionally polite nothings, and didn't mention that I just paid cash for my new heating/cooling system, and would no more lease a car than jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.

This is pretty much where I'm at.  I might even add a "the new car is really pretty" kind of comment.  If a friend is complaining specifically about finances, I might toss out, "Have you guys thought about moving to a cheaper place," and when that is met with the typical excuse, I murmur something about how yes, it does all sound really stressful, or that money problems are definitely tough, or some similar platitude.  It doesn't seem like the time to chime in with shaming, which they aren't ready to hear, or with stories of my own success, which aren't really all that topical when clearly the friend is seeking commiseration.  It's really never been a problem, and these awkward situations that others speak of have almost never come up. 

[ambimammular]

Our family recently took a tropical vacation, and only told my best friend (who also watches the cat while we're gone). Other friends overheard part and asked about where we were going. I was semi-embarrassed and kept trying to "explain" myself. "Well, our companion pass runs out this year, so...and we have all these airline miles, you see..."

We're a pretty thrifty group. I just don't like our friends to think we're the sort of people that do things frivolously.

Apologizing for spending money makes me feel so Midwestern. Ha!

[Hadilly]

Income disparity is something I worry about with family rather than friends. We live in an area with lots of rich people. I have no problems with coming across as a slightly eccentric bike riding, library-goer and looking poor/non consuming. It is more of an issue with my sibling. I know they earn a lot less than we do. I worry about it impacting us at some point if it means that our lives become very different. Already, I feel a certain amount of internal pressure to pick up the check when we are together and uncomfortable chatting about money management.

I also feel I have to be careful around my cousins. They are great people and totally non-mustachian in many of their choices. I end up biting my tongue a fair amount. Certain topics of conversation feel like they would sound like bragging or flaunting.

Ay-yi-yi!

[Apples]

Income disparity is something I worry about with family rather than friends. We live in an area with lots of rich people. I have no problems with coming across as a slightly eccentric bike riding, library-goer and looking poor/non consuming. It is more of an issue with my sibling. I know they earn a lot less than we do. I worry about it impacting us at some point if it means that our lives become very different. Already, I feel a certain amount of internal pressure to pick up the check when we are together and uncomfortable chatting about money management.

I also feel I have to be careful around my cousins. They are great people and totally non-mustachian in many of their choices. I end up biting my tongue a fair amount. Certain topics of conversation feel like they would sound like bragging or flaunting.

Ay-yi-yi!

+1.  THIS is the awkwardness that we can't seem to avoid. 

We earn more than my in-laws and SIL, and thought that's not an obvious fact, it is apparent in our ability to make choices.  SIL just got her first job making $40,000 and (expensive) health insurance.  MIL and FIL combined might make $60,000 to $80,000.  They live in a fairly affluent area, so these incomes are enough but stretch.  SIL, who is only doing slightly better than paycheck-to-paycheck, will want to "split" a $400 or $500 gift for their parents for their anniversary or Christmas.  So we'll hem and haw but end up agreeing to the several hundred dollars.  She actually has great, useful gift ideas, so I don't feel like we're contributing to too much consumerism (a coffee pot and a snowblower to replace broken items).  BUT then she will ask us last minute to buy the gift b/c she didn't have the cash/credit to do so, promising to pay us when we visit for the occasion.  And now 2/2 times she hasn't paid us her half of the gift.   But since we make more than twice what she does, there is an unspoken pressure to just accept it gracefully, not call her out on it.  Things are said like "but you guys can handle it" and "most of my money is going to rent, food, gas, and car payment right now" and such.  And when we go out for a meal we buy hers.  I don't mind doing it as a nice gesture, but there has begun to be an expectation.  Finally, we're always asked/told to come visit more often, b/c the in-laws can't actually afford to take days off of work.  They both need overtime hours in order to make ends meet, and if you work 35 hours but then use 2 days of vacation time it only counts as straight hours, not 1.5x over 40.  But we should be fine taking off work, right?

To everyone wondering how they know how much we make.  They don't actually, but they know based on job title that DH makes a lower amount of money, and I make a bit more.  They know our housing expenses are low b/c we rent from my parents and my parents have stated the rent is well below market value, and that we paid off $XX,XXX in student loans in 2 years b/c DH told them how proud he was when we paid them off.  Based on that, they can make some guesses.

[BFGirl]

I have a very close friend who helped me emotionally during my divorce process.  I bought my current home with cash and she went to the closing with me.  I know she is proud of me for getting out of a bad situation and for making smart money choices, but she tells new neighbors that we become friends with that I paid cash for my house.  It makes me uncomfortable when I know others aren't in the same financial situation as I am.  I really don't like it brought up lately because one of our friends lost her job back in October and is in her mid 50s trying to find another job.  I think she has run out of her severance, unemployment and savings and may be taking out of her 401K to make ends meet and pay her mortgage.

[Paul der Krake]

• Learning that my classmates from abroad can't take any deductions or exemptions, even the one who's married with two kids. So I make a lot more than them post-tax; which just makes me feel guilty...

Isn't that just the first year though? If I remember correctly foreign "visitors" get to file as residents if they are in the country for more than 6 months of the tax year. They would file a 1040NR (without all the goodies) only if they showed up after July, say to start grad school in September. The following year, they can file the regular 1040 (or 1040A/1040EZ) like everyone else.

[FrogStash]

.... If they comment on how "lucky" I am to be able to afford a vacation or because we don't have kids, I generally say, "we've definitely been very lucky....

I can never let this one slide, but I probably should.  My mother in law always mentions how "lucky" her daughter and I are to not be constantly worrying about money.  At least once I couldn't hold back when she commented on how someone she thought of as "rich" must "just be lucky" and told her that luck may have very little to do with it.  Some people study hard, earn scholarships, work hard, and try to make good decisions while saving more than they spend. 

[MrMoogle]

.... If they comment on how "lucky" I am to be able to afford a vacation or because we don't have kids, I generally say, "we've definitely been very lucky....

I can never let this one slide, but I probably should.  My mother in law always mentions how "lucky" her daughter and I are to not be constantly worrying about money.  At least once I couldn't hold back when she commented on how someone she thought of as "rich" must "just be lucky" and told her that luck may have very little to do with it.  Some people study hard, earn scholarships, work hard, and try to make good decisions while saving more than they spend. 

Luck has a lot to do with it, but just luck isn't enough to remain wealthy.  Just luck can win you the lottery, but as most lottery winners show, they will be back in financial trouble in 5-10 years. 

Most people on here have been lucky, but we define ourselves on our choices, which is hard work and being frugal, and that is why mustachians are "rich."

[Warlord1986]

.... If they comment on how "lucky" I am to be able to afford a vacation or because we don't have kids, I generally say, "we've definitely been very lucky....

I can never let this one slide, but I probably should.  My mother in law always mentions how "lucky" her daughter and I are to not be constantly worrying about money.  At least once I couldn't hold back when she commented on how someone she thought of as "rich" must "just be lucky" and told her that luck may have very little to do with it.  Some people study hard, earn scholarships, work hard, and try to make good decisions while saving more than they spend.

I hate that 'lucky' and 'must be nice' business. I've started taking it as shorthand for 'I'm lazy and a spendthrift, and while I'm jealous of people with money, I don't want to take the steps necessary to build my own fortune, so I'll just downplay others' work.'

I was lucky to be born in America where a woman has the opportunity to serve in the military and get her career started.
I was lucky to be born in a time where women are encouraged to get an education.
I'm lucky that my parents took me to the library when I was a kid, and saved their money instead of eating out every night.
I'm lucky to be able-bodied and able-minded.

I am not lucky to be able to google 'cheap, healthy recipes' and find something to cook instead of going out. I am not lucky to use the consignment store instead of buying everything from the mall. I am not lucky to be able to invite friends over for coffee instead of meeting at a coffee shop. I'm not lucky to have called up USAA and ask if they can help me figure out how to invest.

I'm dumber than a sack of hammers and I'm not good at math. I'm no engineer and spreadsheets bore me to tears. Given all the advantages I had, I've saved a pittance. Certainly, it's a much smaller sum than many here. But I still managed to figure out the basic tenements* of "I need to have a financial cushion for when something unexpected happens. I need to live my below my means. I need to buy my needs before my wants. I should save for what I want."

*'tenets' that should read 'tenets.' Whomp whomp.

[Villanelle]

Income disparity is something I worry about with family rather than friends. We live in an area with lots of rich people. I have no problems with coming across as a slightly eccentric bike riding, library-goer and looking poor/non consuming. It is more of an issue with my sibling. I know they earn a lot less than we do. I worry about it impacting us at some point if it means that our lives become very different. Already, I feel a certain amount of internal pressure to pick up the check when we are together and uncomfortable chatting about money management.

I also feel I have to be careful around my cousins. They are great people and totally non-mustachian in many of their choices. I end up biting my tongue a fair amount. Certain topics of conversation feel like they would sound like bragging or flaunting.

Ay-yi-yi!

+1.  THIS is the awkwardness that we can't seem to avoid. 

We earn more than my in-laws and SIL, and thought that's not an obvious fact, it is apparent in our ability to make choices.  SIL just got her first job making $40,000 and (expensive) health insurance.  MIL and FIL combined might make $60,000 to $80,000.  They live in a fairly affluent area, so these incomes are enough but stretch.  SIL, who is only doing slightly better than paycheck-to-paycheck, will want to "split" a $400 or $500 gift for their parents for their anniversary or Christmas.  So we'll hem and haw but end up agreeing to the several hundred dollars.  She actually has great, useful gift ideas, so I don't feel like we're contributing to too much consumerism (a coffee pot and a snowblower to replace broken items).  BUT then she will ask us last minute to buy the gift b/c she didn't have the cash/credit to do so, promising to pay us when we visit for the occasion.  And now 2/2 times she hasn't paid us her half of the gift.   But since we make more than twice what she does, there is an unspoken pressure to just accept it gracefully, not call her out on it.  Things are said like "but you guys can handle it" and "most of my money is going to rent, food, gas, and car payment right now" and such.  And when we go out for a meal we buy hers.  I don't mind doing it as a nice gesture, but there has begun to be an expectation.  Finally, we're always asked/told to come visit more often, b/c the in-laws can't actually afford to take days off of work.  They both need overtime hours in order to make ends meet, and if you work 35 hours but then use 2 days of vacation time it only counts as straight hours, not 1.5x over 40.  But we should be fine taking off work, right?

To everyone wondering how they know how much we make.  They don't actually, but they know based on job title that DH makes a lower amount of money, and I make a bit more.  They know our housing expenses are low b/c we rent from my parents and my parents have stated the rent is well below market value, and that we paid off $XX,XXX in student loans in 2 years b/c DH told them how proud he was when we paid them off.  Based on that, they can make some guesses.

I think the problem is that you agreed to a $500 gift.  Of course that makes people think you are rich, even if they made the request in the first place.  Hard to put that knowledge back in the box, but next year, "budget is tight this year, so that's more than we can spend.  We found a smaller gift and went ahead and bought that on our own."   Or even leave the part about the budget out.  "We actually found something great for her this year, so we are opting out of a group gift."  In that case, you'll probably want to have something in mind because they'll likely ask what it is.  Or "we are cutting way back on holiday spending this year.  In fact, we wanted to see if everyone wants to just do homemade gifts this year, since that's what we are planning".

And if they want you to take time off work and you don't want to lose the pay, say no.  I get that it's not quite that easy, but it seems like they are taking advantage, and that every time you say yes to these things, you are reenforcing the fact that it is no big deal, and that you have money to waste. 

You can slowly change the perception, hopefully, and even if you can't, you can prevent yourself from being taken advantage of. 

[RetiredAt63]

Just a general comment - the lower income sibling does not automatically have to feel like the higher income sibling owes them.  I was the lower income sibling all my life, my sister and I took different career paths, and her income was way higher (and her expenses too).  I never felt that she should carry me on any shared expenses, and I would tell her if she was looking at an amount that I was not comfortable with.  It may have a bit of a gender aspect, my Ex was also in a lower paying career, compared to his family, but he never was upfront about excessive gift costs, he would have lost face, I think.  But the point is, they don't have to feel entitled to some of your money, that is a choice they are making. 

[rafiki]

I don't really get into this sort of thing with a lot of people. Some of my closest friends know that I'm interested in making and saving money with the goal of a more independent life - and some of them have actually bought into the idea themselves. But I don't recall having any "awkward" conversations about paying for things - then again, I don't claim to have a ton of friends either.

But I think if there was "awkwardness", it would say more about me and my ability to handle a situation than it would say about the other person. In the course of life I meet people and we talk (tangentially) about money. For example: I may run into other people who have student loans, and we can both commiserate about them (they suck - whether you are paying them off early, or are paying for decades). They don't need to know that I have paid my down aggressively, and I don't volunteer the information.

As for guilt about making more money than my sibling - I have other things to be neurotic about, but this is not one of them. The world owes you nothing. You make the most of what you have. If they want to make more money then they can go out and get a better job, start a business, go back to school, etc. The world belongs to those who hustle.

I hold most people at arms length and that cuts out a lot of bullshit. 

But maybe my situation is different - I moved around a lot when growing up (and moved to where I live now after grad school), I have a small family, and am a largely introverted person. I have a significant other (which can insulate you socially a lot if you allow it to), but we don't have kids. I get a lot of socialization from work, networking professionally, volunteering, etc. If I grew up in one place and still lived in the same town where I went to high school or something, then maybe things would be different. While growing up in one place can have its advantages, I think moving around has its advantages as well.

But this "problem" strikes me as a problem that is entirely within your control.

[mwulff]

I've taken the opposite road and I just no longer give a sh** about what people think. If people start a conversation about money I will gladly tell them that we are working towards ER and that we are close to FI.

Heck, if they get curious enough I will even pull out our monthly budget spreadsheet and show them where they are wasting their money.

My personal opinion is that people don't talk enough about money and if they did many would be better off.

Come to think of it, I may accidentally have called a close friend for a "facepunch worthy jack-ass" after a particularly stupid financial decision. That started the conversation where we figured out how to get out of "stupid decision(tm)".

Some people might be offended but I no longer care. I won't start a financial conversation, but I won't hold back if somebody starts one.

I'll even point out some of the really stupid things I have done, knowing full well that it was stupid.

[big_owl]

I've taken the opposite road and I just no longer give a sh** about what people think. If people start a conversation about money I will gladly tell them that we are working towards ER and that we are close to FI.

Heck, if they get curious enough I will even pull out our monthly budget spreadsheet and show them where they are wasting their money.

My personal opinion is that people don't talk enough about money and if they did many would be better off.

Come to think of it, I may accidentally have called a close friend for a "facepunch worthy jack-ass" after a particularly stupid financial decision. That started the conversation where we figured out how to get out of "stupid decision(tm)".

Some people might be offended but I no longer care. I won't start a financial conversation, but I won't hold back if somebody starts one.

I'll even point out some of the really stupid things I have done, knowing full well that it was stupid.

I used to NGAF in instances like these, but events over the past year or so have caused me to become a bit more humble or maybe even ?superstitious about the major pillars in life - health, money, love.  It's so easy to lose any of those due to chance or bad luck (or one poor decision) that I'm nervous of being too pompous in my ways because I could very easily find myself looking through the other side of the window.  I wasn't always this way though, maybe it's just part of getting older and realizing you're not invincible?  Sometimes I slip up and find myself back to my old ways and then I remind myself to tone it down and humble things out.

[mwulff]

I used to NGAF in instances like these, but events over the past year or so have caused me to become a bit more humble or maybe even ?superstitious about the major pillars in life - health, money, love.  It's so easy to lose any of those due to chance or bad luck (or one poor decision) that I'm nervous of being too pompous in my ways because I could very easily find myself looking through the other side of the window.  I wasn't always this way though, maybe it's just part of getting older and realizing you're not invincible?  Sometimes I slip up and find myself back to my old ways and then I remind myself to tone it down and humble things out.

Funny, I am actually frugal because I know that I'm not invincible. I know life can turn on a dime and that can't always control what happens. That's why I keep my savings high and my expenses low.

I just refuse to be humble about it anymore. People who overspend are rarely humble about it so why should people who underspend be?