Author Topic: Aus Federal budget 13 May  (Read 41418 times)

HappierAtHome

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #150 on: June 08, 2014, 07:52:15 PM »
I've noticed that most of my coworkers, who are all very well paid, seem to think it's a bad thing if you don't qualify for welfare, e.g. "oh shit, I earn too much to get the private health insurance rebate! Now I have to pay more! It's so unfair!"

Makes me wonder whether I'm the only person out there who thinks it's freakin' awesome to earn too much to qualify for welfare. That it's something to be proud of that I don't receive benefits from the government. That somebody earning what I earn shouldn't qualify for any kind of welfare.

The only person I know IRL who thinks this way too is the BF. Luckily I have the forums...

deborah

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #151 on: June 08, 2014, 08:25:37 PM »
It shows that there is something wrong with both the system and the person wanting to rearrange their assets.

I am planning on minimising my tax liability - but I still expect to pay tax and I do not expect to receive any welfare or pension payments from any source except a fully self funded superannuation pension.
Totally agree. I went to a tax seminar (run by the ATO). It was amazing what tax breaks there are for small business. I think they were talking about the tax breaks for refurbishment of a home office when someone said he hadn't been claiming that sort of stuff, and if he didn't, he shouldn't have to pay capital gains on that section of his home used for business. They said that they expect everyone to take advantage of any tax breaks available to them, and anyone who isn't is silly. They also said that he would still need to pay the capital gains. However, I seem to remember that if you retire, your house immediately becomes capital gains tax free (from a small business perspective).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 09:13:54 PM by deborah »

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #152 on: June 08, 2014, 09:05:10 PM »
There is a retirement exemption for 'disposing" of a small business for retirement. It's capped at something like $6m (I could be wrong, been a long time since I had anything to do with small business tax), but even above that there are concessions above the 50% discount.

I've noticed that most of my coworkers, who are all very well paid, seem to think it's a bad thing if you don't qualify for welfare, e.g. "oh shit, I earn too much to get the private health insurance rebate! Now I have to pay more! It's so unfair!"

Makes me wonder whether I'm the only person out there who thinks it's freakin' awesome to earn too much to qualify for welfare. That it's something to be proud of that I don't receive benefits from the government. That somebody earning what I earn shouldn't qualify for any kind of welfare.

The only person I know IRL who thinks this way too is the BF. Luckily I have the forums...

Yep, amazing how people can't see the wood for the trees. If those people don't want to earn more, please send their money in my direction....

PKFFW

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #153 on: June 09, 2014, 06:02:10 PM »
I've noticed that most of my coworkers, who are all very well paid, seem to think it's a bad thing if you don't qualify for welfare, e.g. "oh shit, I earn too much to get the private health insurance rebate! Now I have to pay more! It's so unfair!"

Makes me wonder whether I'm the only person out there who thinks it's freakin' awesome to earn too much to qualify for welfare. That it's something to be proud of that I don't receive benefits from the government. That somebody earning what I earn shouldn't qualify for any kind of welfare.

The only person I know IRL who thinks this way too is the BF. Luckily I have the forums...
In my experience I think a large part of the issue here is that the person sees others who do receive welfare and rebates not because they earn so little but because of life choices they make and it can be a little frustrating knowing that others who are actually in a better position than themselves are still getting rebates and welfare.

I earn enough that I only qualify for the 10% rebate on health insurance and as of next FY I wont receive any rebate.  I'm ok with that.

What I have a problem with is people who earn more than my wife and I put together who can afford to have one parent stay at home to raise the kids and they get more of a rebate than I do and they get that on top of the baby bonus, family tax benefit A and B, school kid bonus and god only knows what other bonuses and rebates they get.

Wildflame

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #154 on: June 10, 2014, 12:11:59 PM »
I suspect the issue with people being worried about losing certain entitlements is because they are unable / unwilling (probably unable) to understand that despite their 'loss', they are overall better off. Classic case of the cognitive bias of loss aversion tied to poor financial literacy. I struggle against loss aversion from time to time, and doing the sums is always the answer - the numbers don't lie. But what if someone doesn't know how to do the sums?

As for making the 'moral' choice to not take certain tax deductions / claim certain government benefits, the rationally self-interested choice is to claim the maximum possible deduction or benefit possible - the individual is not particularly responsible for the design of the system, so they cannot be held liable for the distortions the system creates. Of course, these same people are likely to scream bloody murder if the deductions / benefits are reined in, and so there is an almost irreversible trend towards increasing complexity and rent seeking.

Just read into the Family Tax Benefit - and wtf? For FTB Part B, a family with one income earner on $149k a year and the other not working will get more than a family with two income earners on $5,184 a year each! Admittedly that one-high-earner family wouldn't get any FTB Part A, but that is still really, really weird. Similarly, a family with one income earner on $48k a year and the other not working would get as much FTB Part A and more FTB Part B than a family with two income earners on $24k a year each. Sounds like if any Aussie Mustachians want to raise a baby on the cheap while both earning in some capacity, a family trust is where it's at. Sigh... I'm not even trying to see how to rort the system, but it's so damn easy to set up one's affairs in a favourable way - or more accurately, so damn easy to avoid an unfavourable set of affairs. Surely a family of two income earners on $24k each is more deserving of Govt support than a family with one income earner on $149k!

Want to talk about middle-class high-earner welfare? FTB-B, ladies and gentlemen. Surely there are deserving poor people who need extra resources more than anyone earning over the average and pocketing $4k (under 5yo) or $3k (5-18yo) per child in FTB-B. That said, I would very much like to hear an argument for keeping the FTB-B threshold at or near its current level. Anyone care to play Devil's Advocate?

Just read up on the Private Health Insurance rebate. Why on earth does the Government offer a 29% rebate for individuals of reasonable income under age 65? I also like the Lifetime Health Cover loading, which increases private health insurance premiums by 2% for every year of age over 30, up to a total of 70% (for a 65-year-old taking out hospital cover for the first time) - for ten years of coverage. Interesting - looks like the LHC was designed to compensate for the fact that Australian private health insurers are not allowed to charge differentiated premiums for each individual. Moreover, a review of the LHC found that overall, for every dollar spent on insurance premiums, $0.81 was claimed back in benefits (http://goo.gl/NoMhxj, Table 1 on page 13, though admittedly the data is old). Disregarding the LHC for a moment, and assuming that 81% benefit rate is still applicable, that means that the private health insurance rebate goes roughly 1/3 to the holders of premiums and 2/3 to insurers: of a $100 premium on average, individual is out of pocket $71, government is out of pocket $29; insurer pays out $81 back to individual; individual is $10 better off than if they hadn't bought insurance, insurer is $19 better off, government is $29 worse off). That's idiotic!

@PKFFW: you must be doing fairly well to be in the <10% rebate category! I am envious. =) That said, at the very least the private health insurance rebate has a consistent phase-out - the 'couple' thresholds are 2x the individual thresholds, which is fair. It follows that it's not possible for an individual who earns more than you and your wife to get a better rebate, unless... maybe they hold an individual policy for the high-income earner and the rest of the family share a policy in the low-earning wife's name (assuming that's permitted).

Oh zzz... Would permitting (requiring?) married or de facto spouses to submit joint tax returns make this maze any simpler? It seems that the current system allows (encourages) couples to act as couples where the rules favour couples, and as individuals when the rules favour individuals.

EDIT: accidentally made the crocodile eat the wrong number.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 12:14:49 PM by Wildflame »

PKFFW

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #155 on: June 10, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
@PKFFW: you must be doing fairly well to be in the <10% rebate category! I am envious. =) That said, at the very least the private health insurance rebate has a consistent phase-out - the 'couple' thresholds are 2x the individual thresholds, which is fair. It follows that it's not possible for an individual who earns more than you and your wife to get a better rebate, unless... maybe they hold an individual policy for the high-income earner and the rest of the family share a policy in the low-earning wife's name (assuming that's permitted).
I'd have to double check but the last time I looked a couple with kids and only 1 income earner can earn more than 2 individuals with no kids.  It might have changed or I might have had it wrong to begin with.  It may have been for some other reason(tax write offs or trusts or whatever reducing reportable income for example) that entitles my high earning brother to get the full 30% rebate whilst my wife and I only get 10%.

Anatidae V

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #156 on: June 10, 2014, 06:28:58 PM »
Wildflame - so my plan for us both to work part time when babies turn up is an unfavourable one? Here I'm going to suggest (yeah, without having run the numbers) that the two earners on $24k each pay less income tax than the single earned on $48k... Would that affect how the benefits are viewed?

HappierAtHome

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #157 on: June 10, 2014, 06:37:36 PM »
Wildflame - so my plan for us both to work part time when babies turn up is an unfavourable one? Here I'm going to suggest (yeah, without having run the numbers) that the two earners on $24k each pay less income tax than the single earned on $48k... Would that affect how the benefits are viewed?

I am not wildflame (obvs) but yeah, given that the first $18k for each earner is tax-free, surely you'd have to be better off with two part-time workers than one higher earner.

Plus, it gives you flexibility and security because you BOTH have the ability to ramp up a career later down the track without a big gap in your resume, and if the economy turns to shit and one of you loses your job you'll at least have the other one's part time income.

You can tell I'm thinking about these choices far too much lately...

AdrianM

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2014, 08:06:24 PM »
Marty well played on making this a most hilarious thread to read.

As a cynical Gen X I don't believe any words that a politician speaks.
I am always reminded of that old joke.
How do you know when a politician is lying, His lips are moving.

Both my wife an I believe in hard work and being productive, but as we have both come to realize.
The system is designed to punish you for being too productive, in a wages sense.
So once we went debt free, we intentionally reduce our income levels to fall back down the tax ladder.
Now I work on my System D economy.
"System D has become a shorthand name for the growing share of the world's economy which makes up the underground economy"

It is pointless arguing over which government is better.
all they do is take more not less,
Tax freedom day keeps getting later and later.


The only reason that the Gillard/Rudd government shows a decrease is that they borrowed the money they spent from the future.

Lukim

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
Adrian,

I agree with you and based on your diagram, we should go back to the 1960s and Sir Robert Menzies.

If you look back to the 1960s and earlier, the disparity between the rich and poor was much less - Australia was a much egalitarian society until the mid 1970s.

Although the average taxpayer in the 1960s only worked 3 months of the year to pay their taxes, for the relatively small number of high income earners, there were very high tax rates (well over 50%).

In my view, the current taxes are high because so much of the tax gets redistributed back as middle class welfare.

Sparkie

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2014, 03:58:47 AM »


Both my wife an I believe in hard work and being productive, but as we have both come to realize.
The system is designed to punish you for being too productive, in a wages sense.
So once we went debt free, we intentionally reduce our income levels to fall back down the tax ladder.


Same here. We decided we could work fulltime for a few years to get a bigger nest egg, but pay a lot of tax in the process, or semi retire now. My wife works part time; I've worked 5 days this year. Keeps the tax bill to a couple of grand.

Also helped with the stamp duty on our house purchase. We saved $11k by getting a Healthcare card for the relevant 8 weeks (I just needed to prove a low income in the preceding 2 months). I justified that in my head as me still paying a ridiculous tax bill to the govt, even though I was entering into a private contract with another person. I drew the line when they offered me dole payments though. It's my choice not to work much- I don't expect others to subsidise that choice.

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2014, 04:24:59 AM »

Just read up on the Private Health Insurance rebate. Why on earth does the Government offer a 29% rebate for individuals of reasonable income under age 65? I also like the Lifetime Health Cover loading, which increases private health insurance premiums by 2% for every year of age over 30, up to a total of 70% (for a 65-year-old taking out hospital cover for the first time) - for ten years of coverage. Interesting - looks like the LHC was designed to compensate for the fact that Australian private health insurers are not allowed to charge differentiated premiums for each individual. Moreover, a review of the LHC found that overall, for every dollar spent on insurance premiums, $0.81 was claimed back in benefits (http://goo.gl/NoMhxj, Table 1 on page 13, though admittedly the data is old). Disregarding the LHC for a moment, and assuming that 81% benefit rate is still applicable, that means that the private health insurance rebate goes roughly 1/3 to the holders of premiums and 2/3 to insurers: of a $100 premium on average, individual is out of pocket $71, government is out of pocket $29; insurer pays out $81 back to individual; individual is $10 better off than if they hadn't bought insurance, insurer is $19 better off, government is $29 worse off). That's idiotic!


Well put. Idiotic is definitely the word.

I thought the intention behind the LHC loading is that it penalises those who start contributing to the insurance system late in life. i.e. designed to stop people from taking a free ride in the public system for most of their life and then taking out private health cover in their 70's when they are a bad risk.

System needs suckers like me who pay and don't claim when we are young, in order to support the oldies who pay but claim 50x their premium worth when they are old.

Sparkie

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2014, 04:49:46 AM »
System needs suckers like me who pay and don't claim when we are young, in order to support the oldies who pay but claim 50x their premium worth when they are old.

In a general sense, that's true of most insurance; it's a business. More money comes in than goes out. I don't see the point of Private Health Insurance personally . It's just about assessing the risk to you and making a choice.

I'd insure my house, because I wouldn't want to pay to build a new one if it burned down. But my health isn't worth insuring in my view. If something is urgent or life threatening it will be done in a public setting, which I've already paid for via taxes in the past. If its not going to get done in a timely manner, I'll just pay to do it. In the meantime, eat well, keep fit etc and come what may.


Ozstache

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2014, 05:11:00 AM »
System needs suckers like me who pay and don't claim when we are young, in order to support the oldies who pay but claim 50x their premium worth when they are old.

In a general sense, that's true of most insurance; it's a business. More money comes in than goes out. I don't see the point of Private Health Insurance personally . It's just about assessing the risk to you and making a choice.

I'd insure my house, because I wouldn't want to pay to build a new one if it burned down. But my health isn't worth insuring in my view. If something is urgent or life threatening it will be done in a public setting, which I've already paid for via taxes in the past. If its not going to get done in a timely manner, I'll just pay to do it. In the meantime, eat well, keep fit etc and come what may.

+1.

My elderly MIL had a fall nearly a month ago now and has been in public hospital ever since. She went in as a private patient and hasn't been able to get a private room, or just a shared room with all women, in that time. She could transfer to a private hospital, but there are no rooms, all her medical history of the incident is where she is anyway, and all the relevant specialists are based in her current hospital. Her insurer did pay the ambulance fee, but that's like $850 which could have been paid for with the $3K saving she could have had by NOT having private health insurance.

A few years ago, my father had a heart attack in outback Australia. No private health insurance, but he was flown to Townsville by the RFDS, had quad bypass surgery, a couple of weeks of recovery - all under medicare costing NOTHING.

When my wife had our first child, she went in under private health insurance and had a whole bunch of gap bills to pay when she got out. Second son was medicare all the way baby and, despite having a few more complications than my first child, under medicare it cost NOTHING.

I truly fail to see the major benefit of private health insurance. If anything, it seems to be a financial liability when you use it!

Sparkie

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2014, 05:32:38 AM »
System needs suckers like me who pay and don't claim when we are young, in order to support the oldies who pay but claim 50x their premium worth when they are old.

In a general sense, that's true of most insurance; it's a business. More money comes in than goes out. I don't see the point of Private Health Insurance personally . It's just about assessing the risk to you and making a choice.

I'd insure my house, because I wouldn't want to pay to build a new one if it burned down. But my health isn't worth insuring in my view. If something is urgent or life threatening it will be done in a public setting, which I've already paid for via taxes in the past. If its not going to get done in a timely manner, I'll just pay to do it. In the meantime, eat well, keep fit etc and come what may.

+1.

My elderly MIL had a fall nearly a month ago now and has been in public hospital ever since. She went in as a private patient and hasn't been able to get a private room, or just a shared room with all women, in that time. She could transfer to a private hospital, but there are no rooms, all her medical history of the incident is where she is anyway, and all the relevant specialists are based in her current hospital. Her insurer did pay the ambulance fee, but that's like $850 which could have been paid for with the $3K saving she could have had by NOT having private health insurance.

A few years ago, my father had a heart attack in outback Australia. No private health insurance, but he was flown to Townsville by the RFDS, had quad bypass surgery, a couple of weeks of recovery - all under medicare costing NOTHING.

When my wife had our first child, she went in under private health insurance and had a whole bunch of gap bills to pay when she got out. Second son was medicare all the way baby and, despite having a few more complications than my first child, under medicare it cost NOTHING.

I truly fail to see the major benefit of private health insurance. If anything, it seems to be a financial liability when you use it!

I'd add that ambulance cover is potentially worth it. It's country wide and can save some huge bills (I'm an ambo, but I I don't get a kickback!). One of the first things an 'emergency' patient is asked on arrival at hospital is are you a private patient, and if so, do you mind if we bill your insurer as it saves us money?

Ozstache

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2014, 07:49:55 AM »
I'd add that ambulance cover is potentially worth it. It's country wide and can save some huge bills (I'm an ambo, but I I don't get a kickback!). One of the first things an 'emergency' patient is asked on arrival at hospital is are you a private patient, and if so, do you mind if we bill your insurer as it saves us money?

I just got an online quote from Bupa for emergency only Ambulance cover in NSW and it is $33.60 for a single person. For the $850 ride my MIL had, that works out to one trip at least every 25 years to break even. My MIL is 86 and this is the first time she's ever been in an ambulance, so even ambulance cover hasn't been worth it for her. The maths works out similar for my immediate family and I'd have no problem stumping up $850 for an ambulance ride. Unless you're accident prone, self-insurance still works out better in the long run.

PKFFW

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2014, 04:20:30 PM »
In a general sense, that's true of most insurance; it's a business. More money comes in than goes out. I don't see the point of Private Health Insurance personally . It's just about assessing the risk to you and making a choice.

I'd insure my house, because I wouldn't want to pay to build a new one if it burned down. But my health isn't worth insuring in my view. If something is urgent or life threatening it will be done in a public setting, which I've already paid for via taxes in the past. If its not going to get done in a timely manner, I'll just pay to do it. In the meantime, eat well, keep fit etc and come what may.
I have private health insurance only because my premium(with the 10% rebate) is cheaper than paying the extra medicare levy payable if you don't have private health insurance.  I haven't done the figures on whether it will be cheaper once I lose the 10% rebate.

Having said that, it did come in handy when I needed reconstructions on both knees at the same time last year.  Straight in with no waiting, private hospital, private room, nice meals, only cost to me for the surgery was about $280 extra for the anesthetist.  Even got most of my physiotherapy paid for too.  Would have had to wait months at least on the public system and as far as I know I would have had to pay for the physio entirely.  I also get rebates on things like massage and chiropractic which I use anyway on a semi-regular basis so that's nice too.

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2014, 06:19:19 AM »
System needs suckers like me who pay and don't claim when we are young, in order to support the oldies who pay but claim 50x their premium worth when they are old.

In a general sense, that's true of most insurance; it's a business. More money comes in than goes out. I don't see the point of Private Health Insurance personally . It's just about assessing the risk to you and making a choice.

I'd insure my house, because I wouldn't want to pay to build a new one if it burned down. But my health isn't worth insuring in my view. If something is urgent or life threatening it will be done in a public setting, which I've already paid for via taxes in the past. If its not going to get done in a timely manner, I'll just pay to do it. In the meantime, eat well, keep fit etc and come what may.

+1.

My elderly MIL had a fall nearly a month ago now and has been in public hospital ever since. She went in as a private patient and hasn't been able to get a private room, or just a shared room with all women, in that time. She could transfer to a private hospital, but there are no rooms, all her medical history of the incident is where she is anyway, and all the relevant specialists are based in her current hospital. Her insurer did pay the ambulance fee, but that's like $850 which could have been paid for with the $3K saving she could have had by NOT having private health insurance.

A few years ago, my father had a heart attack in outback Australia. No private health insurance, but he was flown to Townsville by the RFDS, had quad bypass surgery, a couple of weeks of recovery - all under medicare costing NOTHING.

When my wife had our first child, she went in under private health insurance and had a whole bunch of gap bills to pay when she got out. Second son was medicare all the way baby and, despite having a few more complications than my first child, under medicare it cost NOTHING.

I truly fail to see the major benefit of private health insurance. If anything, it seems to be a financial liability when you use it!

I know you are smart enough to know it doesn't cost NOTHING.

Small matter of taxes having to be as high as they are, to be able to fund all of those freebies.

Wildflame

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2014, 11:06:04 AM »
I also agree that ambulance cover is an absolute necessity, given it only requires use every 20+ years to make it worthwhile. The thing that scares me about ambo cover is that nobody in the <25 age bracket seems to be aware that it exists - I was 23 or so when I found out! If I'd needed an ambo I could have gone under my parents' cover, but only if I lied and said I still lived at home or something.

As regards the 1-earner-on-$48k being better off than 2-earners-on-$24k-each, I was talking specifically in terms of eligibility for FTB part B. Obviously given an earner on $48k will be paying average ~16% tax (~$7.7k)whereas two earners on 24k will be paying somewhere around ~4% (~$1k), so that's a gain of $5,600 in terms of tax not incurred. However, the one-income family gets FTB-B @ the maximum of ~$4,172, while the two-income family gets FTB-B @ ~$409 for the year (being $4,172 - (0.2 * (24,000-5,183))). That's a difference in favour of the one-income family of $3,763. Both those figures assume your youngest child is under 5 years of age. I can't be arsed doing the calculations twice for 5-18YOs.

In other words, a one-income family on $48k will pay $5,600 more tax but get $3,763 more in FTB-B than a two-income family on $24k each (for a total of $48k) - making the two-equal-income family 'better off' overall by $1,837 per year. Now that I calculate things that way, I wonder if that was the rationale for implementing FTB-B - to equalise for the effects of the tax-free threshold on dual incomes. That does make a certain amount of sense, though again it is insane to allow one earner to earn $150k before the benefit is withdrawn. There's also the silliness of making it a binary cutoff - if a one-income family goes from $150,000 to $150,001, that additional 60c from working (after accounting for 40% tax, ML, and ML surcharge) costs you $4,171.95 in FTB-B. Crazy.

The effect of the phase-out rule for FTB-B is equivalent to a 20% tax, so the optimum income distribution for tax and FTB-B would be... up to the point where the combined tax and lost FTB-B is higher than if the higher income earner increases their income. Assuming we're trying to get as close to the $48k mark at which FTB-A phases out as possible, then my guess would be to max out the tax-free threshold for the secondary earner, so the primary earner earns $29,800 and the secondary earner earns $18,200. This would result in a total tax liability of $2,206, and a total FTB-B benefit of $1,568.55, for a 'balance' of -$639 for a 30k/18k family, as opposed to around -$1600 for the 24k/24k family and around -$3500 for the 48k/0k family.

Interesting how that works. Obviously such fine-tuning of income is the field of family trusts.

As regards the viability of private health insurance, the thing is that we already have health insurance - it's just socialised, as health insurance should be (maximum size of risk pool means minimum risk of incurring a deviation that bankrupts the provider, the provider can't go bankrupt because it issues the currency, positive externalities thanks to a healthier population, etc). The key question is, why do we allow, or indeed encourage, private firms that introduce another layer of bureaucracy to the whole process? It's much the same as the nonsense with privatised electricity retailers in the eastern states - they do nothing but sign people up and collect the money, skimming some profit off the top.

Here's a thought: will private health insurance cover the GP copayment?

@Sparkie: Low income earners can get a discount on stamp duty? I must investigate!

@Happierathome / anatidaev: hope the math above helps. If you want, I can run the numbers more thoroughly sometime / consider FTB-A and other complicating things. We'll be in Perth from 3-8 July, can get together and complain about the budget more. ^_^

EDIT: This post was even less comprehensible before the edits.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:21:33 AM by Wildflame »

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2014, 03:47:50 PM »
Wildflame, what electorate are you standing in? Just want to know so I can vote for you as you understand the current tax/transfer system better than the current crop of politicians.

Ozstache

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #170 on: June 13, 2014, 01:26:11 AM »
I know you are smart enough to know it doesn't cost NOTHING.

Small matter of taxes having to be as high as they are, to be able to fund all of those freebies.

What? You mean it's not totally free? ;)

As a previously high earning PAYG employee for many years, I reckon I've paid my fair share of tax into medicare. I'm just getting my money's worth from what's legitimately accessible from now on, that's all. Anything extra I want on top of that, I am happy to pay my own way.

HappierAtHome

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #171 on: June 13, 2014, 01:40:48 AM »
@Happierathome / anatidaev: hope the math above helps. If you want, I can run the numbers more thoroughly sometime / consider FTB-A and other complicating things. We'll be in Perth from 3-8 July, can get together and complain about the budget more. ^_^

Should we be organising a Meetup while you're in Perth??

Wildflame

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #172 on: June 13, 2014, 08:01:51 AM »
@HappierAtHome, I've posted in the Meetup thread, so we don't clutter this one up too much.

@marty, you make me blush =#. But I don't think I've got the hide for politics - I'm the kind of guy who cries during the sad bits in action movies.

While we're on the subject of Medicare, apparently some of the Budget changes are going to have larger effects on medical care, especially medical scans. All links at bottom of post!

The gist is that the Medicare payment for various scans is decreasing, and so providers will have to make up the difference by taking a hit to profits or by charging more. Guess which is the most likely option? Time to go learn about Medicare...

Okay. Looks like the 'bulk bill incentive' which adds 10% rebate to scans that are bulk billed was a measure introduced by the Rudd government in 2009. The rationale was to encourage providers of scans/tests to provide these on a bulk-billed basis, meaning at no out-of-pocket cost to the individual.

As the example given in the article was for a PET scan, I found one on the Medicare Benefits Schedule website: code 61541, for "Whole body FDG PET study, following initial therapy, for the evaluation of suspected residual, metastatic or recurrent colorectal carcinoma in patients considered suitable for active therapy (R)". The scheduled fee for this service is $953.00. Medicare will rebate either 75% ($714.75) or 85% ($876.80). Weirdly, the value listed in the 85% category is actually 92%.

More importantly, there is an explanatory note for the 'bulk billing incentive' as it applies to this item and others: if a provider bulk bills, the fee is reduced by 5% and then the provider gets 100% of this reduced amount (95% or $905.35).

Looks like the 75% amount is the amount rebated for a service provided in a private hospital. 85% is the amount rebated for non-GP services (ie specialist services) provided outside of a hospital. Services provided by a GP or in a public hospital are rebated at 100%.

So the change is that imaging services provided outside a hospital that were bulk-billed rebated the provider 95% of the Schedule Fee. Now it will be 85%, and less $5 more just 'coz.

Consequence: the maximum rebate a provider can get for providing a code 61541 service will decline from $905.35 for providing a bulk billed service, to $871.80 regardless of whether the person was bulk billed or not.

So for large services such as code 61541, you're looking at suddenly having a gap of $33.55 or thereabouts. For smaller services, the $5 fixed rebate reduction will increase in significance - for a $100 service (a spinal x-ray is $110), the total reduction in rebate (and therefore increase in gap) will be 15% (from $95 to $80).

That's pretty harsh, especially given that the patient has to pay $7 extra even while the provider is getting $15 less!

Okay, let's consider other implications. Any person who would have used their private health insurance in a private hospital to pay for a code 61541 can still do so at no increase in cost. But few people get their scans done in a private hospital, or indeed a hospital at all. For everyone else, this change leaves them worse off.

1) For those who would have been bulk-billed previously, assuming the provider wants to get the same amount of money as before, will now need to pay a gap of $33.55 (plus the $7 copay). This is the kind of thing most of us can expect across all scans. Extra detail: for comparison, the Schedule Fee for code 58108, a spinal x-ray, is $110. The actual gap will be $16 (($110*.95)-($110*.85)+$5). And don't forget your $7 copay.

2) For those who chose to pay more instead of bulk-billing in the first place (perhaps to get priority?), they will need to pay an additional gap of... $5. And don't forget your $7 copay! Yeah. People who were paying over the odds before, don't pay as much more as those who were bulk-billed.

In practice, there are two possible situations:

1) Scan providers (etc) were overcharging and reaping windfall profits. This change cuts them back down to size, by forcing them to charge less to Medicare, and still bulk-billing. Medicare saves money, everybody wins.

2) (a) Scan providers (etc) were making a normal profit. This change causes them to become less profitable unless they impose gap fees. Most will. In response, some individuals will choose to avoid (perceived) non-essential or (actual) unaffordable scans, reducing the number of services rendered and causing marginal providers to close.
(b) Medicare will save money on providing 'non-essential' scans, but hospitals will spend more on fixing people who land in hospital because the scans were necessary but unaffordable. Cures are generally more expensive and destructive the later in the course of a disease they are applied; the cost savings evaporate and we are worse off in terms of health outcomes and Budget. However, public hospital care is a State Government responsibility - so this change improves the Federal Budget a little, in exchange for damaging every State Budget more.
(c) Private health insurance providers win: more people will sign up because the cost/reward balance has been shifted in their favour.

Final point: the assertion in the article about 'bill shock', that people will need to pay for scans up-front in full is accurate as of today. Providers can only 'bulk bill', that is, charge Medicare immediately on the individual's behalf, if they accept the Medicare rebate as payment in full - if they decide to charge more in order to cover their costs (such as the recommended 'Schedule Fee'), the individual must pay upfront and recover the rebate from Medicare themselves. Although some providers will offer payment plans, the additional administrative costs and uncertainty that arise from extending consumer credit mean that in practice most will insist on payment before service. Who gets hit hardest by this? Oh, right. Poor people. Though, do save some sympathy for dumb middle-classers who lack private insurance and an emergency fund. If this goes through, I will need to re-evaluate the prospect of private health insurance.

- News Report re Medicare Changes (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/hidden-medicare-changes-in-federal-budget-medical-scans-could-cost-you-up-to-1000/story-fni6uo1m-12269524700530)
- Bulk-Billing Incentive Scheme (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/budget/publishing.nsf/Content/budget2009-hmedia14.htm)
- Code 61541 (http://www9.health.gov.au/mbs/search.cfm?q=61541&sopt=I)
- Explanatory note for bulk billing for Code 61541 etc (http://www9.health.gov.au/mbs/fullDisplay.cfm?type=note&qt=NoteID&q=DIQ[/url])
- 75% vs 85% explanation (https://www.chf.org.au/pdfs/chf/What-is-the-MBS.pdf)
- Code 58108 (http://www9.health.gov.au/mbs/fullDisplay.cfm?type=item&q=58108&qt=item&criteria=58108-58121
- Public hospital care is a State Government function (http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/93035/05-chapter2.pdf)
- Clarification as to $1000 'bill shock' (http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/medicare/bulk-billing.jsp)

EDIT: bolded the wrong thing, added some stuff.

PS: Don't forget the $7 co-pay on top of every service.

Further edit: I had to do some digging to find out exactly where the elimination of the 'bulk bill imaging incentive scheme' was. It is here: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/budget/publishing.nsf/Content/2014-2015_Health_PBS_sup1/$File/2014-15_Health_PBS_2.03_Outcome_3.pdf. Page 83 per the document (Programme 3.1), third paragraph, third sentence. "They will be paid a low gap incentive – equivalent to the current bulk-billing incentive – to encourage them to charge Commonwealth Concession Card holders and children under 16 no more than the $7 contribution for the first 10 visits..."

Why would they pay a 'low gap incentive' equivalent to the current bulk-billing incentive, if they were not removing the current incentive? Sneaky shit - and not mentioned at all anywhere else in the Budget papers.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:48:15 AM by Wildflame »

The Borgs

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #173 on: June 13, 2014, 06:11:26 PM »
2) (a) Scan providers (etc) were making a normal profit. This change causes them to become less profitable unless they impose gap fees. Most will. In response, some individuals will choose to avoid (perceived) non-essential or (actual) unaffordable scans, reducing the number of services rendered and causing marginal providers to close.
(b) Medicare will save money on providing 'non-essential' scans, but hospitals will spend more on fixing people who land in hospital because the scans were necessary but unaffordable. Cures are generally more expensive and destructive the later in the course of a disease they are applied; the cost savings evaporate and we are worse off in terms of health outcomes and Budget. However, public hospital care is a State Government responsibility - so this change improves the Federal Budget a little, in exchange for damaging every State Budget more.
(c) Private health insurance providers win: more people will sign up because the cost/reward balance has been shifted in their favour.
I'd say this is the more accurate side, given what I know of medical imaging at least here in Queensland from those employed in it. Many centres are in financial difficulty presently, they have hiring freezes in place (even as staff leave) and this will cause some to close. Others will certainly have to pass this cost on.

As for people avoiding what they perceive to be non essential scans: even with bulk billing now, there are many people who struggle to get to a scan, who fail to see the importance of it and who are disadvantaged medically as a result of it. By the time they eventually get to a scan, it's already too late (cancer has metastasized or advanced to a stage where treatment is unlikely to help). This certainly will not help.

The thing is as well, as far as all of these change to medicare go, in many situations you're not looking at a single doctors visit with a co-payment or a single scan and even people who have a reasonable safety net may struggle when hit with something urgent. The proponents of these schemes always seem to be looking at it as being a single doctors visit at a time, or a single scan.

A personal story would illustrate what I mean, I found a lump in my leg and this happened in a two week period: Visit to a doctor > x-ray > return to doctor > ultrasound > blood tests> return to doctor > MRI scan > return to doctor > visit to private oncologist > visit to interventional radiologist > return to doctor. It was a stressful time and an expensive time (having to travel to all of the various places, paying privately to see an oncologist rather than wait), but not crazily so. I don't even have the courage to try and add up what it would have cost immediately without bulk billing. I realise we'd have claimed a lot back, but just having that sort of money to hand is not the reality for most people.
 

deborah

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2014, 05:06:06 PM »
Has anyone read the article about the Greens rebuttal of Joe Hockey's welfare costs to taxpayers?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-offer-counterargument-to-joe-hockeys-formula-on-welfare-20140616-3a8l2.html#ixzz34qW7Fv2a

Quote
Taxpayers have to work nearly 1˝ weeks full-time every year just to pay for subsidies and tax concessions for the fossil fuel, superannuation and private health insurance industries, the Greens party says.

''The reality is that the 'average worker' works less than two days a year to fund unemployment benefits,'' deputy Greens leader Adam Bandt said.

Following Mr Hockey's speech last week, Matt Cowgill, an ACTU economist, published a graph showing where taxpayers' money was actually spent in the welfare system.

It has been replicated by Fairfax Media to match the government's assertion that the average taxpayer pays more than $12,000 a year to fund welfare.

It shows each taxpayer will be asked to pay $3640 in 2014-15 to fund income support for seniors, while $1885 will go towards family tax benefits.

Just $936 of taxpayers' money spent on the welfare system will go towards the sick and unemployed



marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #175 on: June 17, 2014, 04:29:53 AM »
Sorry Deb, pains me to say it but I'm with Hockey on this one. All except his bunkum Class Warfare rhetoric.

Greens can spin it any which way from Sunday but I do not like my taxes going towards buckets of middle class handouts and benefits. They are right to point out the enormous tax concessions the wealthy enjoy but the whole Green manifesto is to tax us more to pay for a welfare nanny state.

edited for typos
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 04:20:07 PM by marty998 »

deborah

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #176 on: June 17, 2014, 03:51:01 PM »
Actually, where I was coming from was the $936 to the sick and unemployed versus the Hockey statement that more than $12,000 a year funds welfare. I have no time for the Greens, and consider that they caused the election of the Abbot government.

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #177 on: June 17, 2014, 04:28:17 PM »
hmm ok. $936 is a small price to pay for the sick and unemployed. So the question now becomes where is the other $11,000 going? Can't we take an axe to that?

I pay around $23k-$25k a year in income tax, GST and rates, + a somewhat unknown amount of tax in super. I think Hockey's idea for giving us a tax receipt to show where the money goes is a great idea.
.
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Interesting to see a couple of Coalition Senators come out and say they will abstain or cross the floor on the PPL and the higher income levy. If it's one thing the Coalition have over Labor it is that MP's are allowed to vote for what they believe in rather than have to toe the party line in 100% of cases.

deborah

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #178 on: June 17, 2014, 04:58:49 PM »
I'm not saying that we wouldn't have a Liberal government without the greens - just not an Abbott government.

agent_clone

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #179 on: June 18, 2014, 05:23:02 AM »
I pay around $23k-$25k a year in income tax, GST and rates, + a somewhat unknown amount of tax in super. I think Hockey's idea for giving us a tax receipt to show where the money goes is a great idea.

The ABC had a nice little interactive chart thing for 2013 (they don't appear to have one for 2014). http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-09/interactive-budget-2013-where-will-your-tax-go/4682404

Wildflame

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2014, 04:45:21 PM »
That is a brilliant little interactive graphic!

Marty: GST goes to fund State government expenditures. These include hospitals, justice (police, courts, jails), roads, utilities (water / electricity, public education, public housing, and managing agricultural and natural resources.

Rates go to your local council in exchange for rubbish collection and disposal, public space maintenance (parks, recreation facilities, libraries) and planning (ensuring development on land minimally harms others).

Income tax goes to the Federal government, and the graphic agent_clone linked shows exactly where that money goes.
Check this one too, similar but with dollar amounts for your income: http://www.wheredomytaxesgo.com.au/.

From the Budget, the top 20 programs are:
Revenue assistance to State and Territory governments: $54.9b (13.2%);
Income support for seniors: $42.1b (10.1%);
Medicare: $20.3b (4.9%);
Family tax benefit: $19.3b (4.6%);
Income Support for People with Disability: $16.9b (4.1%);
Assistance to the States for public hospitals: $15.1b (3.6%);
Job seeker income support: $10.2b (2.5%);
Residential and flexible care: $9.5b (2.3%);
Pharmaceuticals etc: $9.4b (2.3%);
Non government schools - national support: $9.3b (2.2%);
Income support for carers: $7.6b (1.8%);
Public sector superannuation: $7.5b (1.8%);
Commonwealth Grants Scheme: $6.5b (1.6%);
Private health insurance: $6.3b (1.5%);
Fuel tax credits scheme: $6.3b (1.5%);
Defence - management of capability acquisition: $6.2b (1.5%);
Defence - Army capabilities: $6.0b (1.5%);
Defence - management of capability sustainment: $5.9b (1.4%);
Parents' income support: $5.3b (1.3%);
Government Schools National Support: $5.1b (1.2%);
Subtotal $269.9b (65.1%) <- direct from Budget, may not be sum of above figures due to rounding.
Other programs: $144.9b (34.9%).
Total: $414.8b.

Looks like administering the Federal government costs ~$23.2b (5.6%). Thanks to the $8b given to the RBA, which is included under this heading, the Government can claim it will be cutting the costs of administering the Government by 1/3 from the 2013-2014 year's $34.2b. Of course, take out the confounding $8.8b grant, and last year's cost would have been $25.4b - turning the Government's fiscal hatchet job into a more modest 9% haircut with a side of ear.

Even within these programs you can see that job seekers do not make up a substantial proportion of the Budget. We spend 4x as much on pensioners directly and almost 2x as much for family tax benefit. We spend 50% more for support for the disabled.

Here's an interesting one. According to the detailed breakdown in Budget Paper 2, the line item under Employment: "Stronger participation incentives for job seekers under 30" is attached to an increased cost of only $21m this financial year, but skyrocketing to $152.2m in the 2015-2016 financial year, and bigger in subsequent years.  The line item under Social Services: "Stronger participation incentives for job seekers under 30" shows they figure they'll be saving $293m this year, and $582.2m next year.

So it looks like they're expecting a return of 93c in the dollar by changing welfare eligibility for jobseekers under 30 this year, but that drops to 74c in the dollar next year. I wonder why the change is so drastic?

Either way, you're looking at a net gain to the budget in the 2015-2016 year of $430m. That's equivalent to 0.1% of the Budget.

Other interesting changes in welfare:

They're saving $218m by removing grandfathering for student start-up scholarships. This was a one-off payment around $1000 paid twice a year in February and August to eligible students receiving Youth Allowance while studying. The program was already being phased out and replaced by allowing students to take out a Student Start-Up Loan which is basically the same thing, except the balance gets added to the student's HECS debt. I'm actually surprised they didn't do that before. Either way, the savings fall off dramatically after 2 years as people would have ceased to receive the scholarship anyway by graduating (or dropping out).

Saving $132m, increasing by ~$120m more for each of the next three years, by "maintaining eligibility thresholds for Australian Government payments for three years". This just means freezing indexing to CPI for income and asset tests for various non-pension payments (pensions will also have their eligibility thresholds frozen, but not until 2017 - can't upset the olds before the next election, can we?).

Saving $26m, increasing to $183m next year, by increasing the eligible age to receive Youth Allowance and Sickness Allowance from 22 years to 24 years. I'm fairly certain that this means the age at which you are deemed to be independent from your parents. If you are below that age, you can prove independence by holding a job for an average of 30 hours a week for 18 months out of a 2 year period, or by providing evidence that it is not suitable for you to live at home (abuse, neglect, etc). If you cannot prove independence, your parents' income and assets are taken into consideration when assessing whether you are eligible for a payment. The main threshold is $48,837 - for every dollar over that of combined parental income, your Youth Allowance is reduced by 20c. There are several different rates of payment depending on whether a person applying for Youth Allowance is living at home or not, and if over 18 or not, or has children. The kind of person affected by this change is a person over 18, either at the parental home or not. If at the parental home the payment reaches zero when combined parental income reaches $84,301; if living away from the parental home, $102,709. By increasing the age at which a person is deemed independent, people seeking to claim Youth Allowance aged 22 and 23 will more frequently be granted only a partial payment due to the effect of parental income - even if the parents and the child have nothing to do with each other and live on opposite sides of the country, depending on how strict that "unreasonable to live at home" clause is.

Saving $398.8m this year and ~$720m for each of three years after that, by freezing indexation of Family Tax Benefit.

Saving $377.4m in the 2015-16 year (and increasing slightly after that year) by cutting the threshold for receipt of FTB-B from $150k to $100k. Now there's a good idea! Long overdue. I believe I suggested it myself in a previous post.

Saving $410.0m in the 2015-16 year (and ongoing in future years) by cutting FTB end-of-year supplements.

Saving $87.2m - scaling up to $1.58b by 2018! - by phasing out FTB-B payments to parents of children once the youngest child reaches 6yo. Interestingly, they've put in a 2-year transitional period so current recipients whose youngest kids are 6-18 can plan for losing it after two years instead of immediately. Another interesting measure that doesn't bite until next election season.

Saving ~$125m each year by only paying the Large Family Supplement of FTB for each child from the 4th onwards - currently the 3rd onwards. Currently $12.04 per fortnight per qualifying child, by the way.

Saving $220m this year, increasing by $15m a year, by cutting the Seniors Supplement - a payment of $876.20 to singles or $1320.80 total to a couple per year, split across four quarterly payments. This was available to people of pension age who were not receiving a pension and whose income was below $50,000 (single) or $80,000 (couple total).

Saving $41.3m this year, increasing by ~$45m a year, by ceasing indexation of the Clean Energy Supplement, a small supplement paid to recipients of all social welfare payments.

Saving $74m this year, increasing to ~$160m a year in subsequent years, by cutting the Aged Care Payroll Tax Supplement, the terms of which are too complex for me to figure out at the moment, but basically existed to offset payroll tax costs for residential aged care providers (presumably because employment of skilled carers is their primary expense and the resulting payroll tax was too high?)

There's a lot of indexation freezes that make up the changes to welfare. Major exceptions include the cut of the Seniors Supplement, which is arguably justified by the fact that people who receive it are people who have too much wealth or income to qualify for the aged pension so are not really needy; massive cuts to FTB, especially that elimination of FTB-B for parents whose youngest child is 6, once that takes effect in 2018. At that point FTB looks like the whole program will have been cut by ~$2.8-3b out of a total of $19.3b - Around 15%.

It looks like jobseeker welfare is being cut by around 10% overall - though of course the burden of most of that cut is borne by jobseekers under 30.

Any thoughts? The Budget papers really are quite interesting, if your eyes don't glaze over from the figures and bullshit. =)

deborah

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #181 on: June 19, 2014, 04:05:59 PM »
Interesting article today http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/hockeys-welfare-claim-confused-and-ultimately-flawed-20140619-3ah2y.html

Seems that Joe Hockey did his "the average Australian needs to work xxx months to pay welfare" statement was not really based on facts, and the calculations we will receive are probably going to be lies as only 45% of taxes collected are from income tax.

SU

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #182 on: June 28, 2014, 07:11:40 AM »
This one is a good read too: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/green-opportunity-lost-in-christine-milnes-road-rage-20140624-3aqvb.html

Quote
The government says the extra revenue raised from indexing fuel excise will be set aside for building new roads and upgrading existing ones. Note the use of the word “extra”. The Greens have not.

Indexation will raise $112.5 million next financial year, $370 million in 2015-16, and $860 million by 2017-18.

The totals are tiny. Far lower than the $19.5 billion or so each year the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics says is spent on roads by all levels of government.

It's entirely possible - even likely - that the extra income from the excise wouldn't have been spent on extra roads at all. The bill the Greens intend to reject does indeed establish “a special account to ensure that the net additional revenue from the reintroduction of fuel indexation is used for road infrastructure funding”. But it doesn't ensure it will be used for extra road funding. It may simply be spent on road work that was going to be done in any event.

In short, the Greens seem to be as confused as everyone else about how General Revenue works.

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #183 on: June 28, 2014, 07:44:29 PM »
That is a brilliant little interactive graphic!

Marty: GST goes to fund State government expenditures. These include hospitals, justice (police, courts, jails), roads, utilities (water / electricity, public education, public housing, and managing agricultural and natural resources.

Rates go to your local council in exchange for rubbish collection and disposal, public space maintenance (parks, recreation facilities, libraries) and planning (ensuring development on land minimally harms others).

Income tax goes to the Federal government, and the graphic agent_clone linked shows exactly where that money goes.
Check this one too, similar but with dollar amounts for your income: http://www.wheredomytaxesgo.com.au/.

From the Budget, the top 20 programs are:
Revenue assistance to State and Territory governments: $54.9b (13.2%);


Yeah I get all of that. I suppose Hockey's tax receipt doesn't go far enough, maybe every level of government should do it.

That bolded line...I thought that was the GST? Which is raised by the Feds and "granted" to the States?

I reckon Labor should just pass the budget as is and let the Government wear the full force of the voter backlash. One reason Howard lasted so long is because Labor kept watering down and rendering the rough edges off all of his more right wing ideologically driven positions. They don't learn, Abbott is playing the same strategy on them.

stripey

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2014, 01:39:17 AM »
This thread has been great and thoroughly entertaining- I am (still) working on improving my political and economic literacy so I don't have much to add, though

Wildflame

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #185 on: June 29, 2014, 02:24:44 AM »
@marty998: Sorry for restating the obvious. I was mostly just trying to make sure everyone was on the same page. =)
I'm fairly sure that the Revenue Assistance line is purely GST. Back into the Budget Papers I go!

... So the difference between Federal Govt revenue including GST and excluding GST is $53.7b, and the figure for "Revenue assistance to State and Territory governments" is $54.9b - a $1.2b discrepancy. This is <2.5%, so for all intents and purposes, you are correct. It is interesting that GST is counted as part of revenue, because the inclusion of that figure skews perceptions of actual revenue and spending attributable to the Federal Government. Let me recalculate some figures excluding that.

From the Budget, the top 19* programs are:
Revenue assistance to State and Territory governments: $54.9b (13.2%);
Income support for seniors: $42.1b (11.7%);
Medicare: $20.3b (5.6%);
Family tax benefit: $19.3b (5.4%);
Income Support for People with Disability: $16.9b (4.7%);
Assistance to the States for public hospitals: $15.1b (4.2%);
Job seeker income support: $10.2b (2.8%);
Residential and flexible care: $9.5b (2.6%);
Pharmaceuticals etc: $9.4b (2.6%);
Non government schools - national support: $9.3b (2.6%);
Income support for carers: $7.6b (2.1%);
Public sector superannuation: $7.5b (2.1%);
Commonwealth Grants Scheme: $6.5b (1.8%);
Private health insurance: $6.3b (1.8%);
Fuel tax credits scheme: $6.3b (1.8%);
Defence - management of capability acquisition: $6.2b (1.7%);
Defence - Army capabilities: $6.0b (1.7%);
Defence - management of capability sustainment: $5.9b (1.6%);
Parents' income support: $5.3b (1.5%);
Government Schools National Support: $5.1b (1.4%);
Subtotal $269.9b (59.7%)
Other programs: $144.9b (40.3%).
Total: $359.7b. (Note: rounding error of $0.2b, original total less revenue assistance to states etc was $359.9b)

I definitely agree with the idea of a 'tax receipt', especially at the state and local levels which tend to have far less prominence (and therefore poorer oversight) than at the Federal level.

I would be amused to see Labor pass the budget as is, but I'm guessing they concluded it would be poor strategy. Given the demonstrated myopia of the collective Australian body politic, I tend to agree with them. There is also a certain amount of inertia involved - once passed, the changes may be difficult to roll back. It may be easier to oppose the most painful now, let the rest slide, and deal with that as the opportunity arises to do so.

I also wonder if it is an attempt to mitigate the influence of Palmer and his pals - if LibLab ally in the Senate, then they form an overwhelming voting bloc, pushing Greens and minor parties alike to the side of deal-making. Whether that's the right decision remains to be seen, I guess.

The trouble I have is that I cannot really discern what Labor currently stands for. Is there a Shadow Budget or something I should know about? That would provide a much richer source of debate, because currently it's a case of "oh, well, looks like spending more/less there is a good/bad idea because I will be better/worse off personally" rather than having any meaningful alternatives. Would Labor continue running a deficit? Would they expand or shrink it? How would they do so - what programs would they broaden or cut? Sigh...

marty998

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Re: Aus Federal budget 13 May
« Reply #186 on: June 29, 2014, 06:12:13 AM »
O/T but the thought occurred to me that if truth in political advertising were the law, then you wouldn't have Labor or Liberal parties. You'd have the Union party and the Business party.

Ironically, you'd still have the Greens.

But I digress.

Abbot and Co. have just released their white paper terms of reference for redefining the fiscal spend of the federation. The position of the government is that the States should be 'sovereign in their own sphere'. That is, they should have full spending control over areas in which they have power to do so. The logical conclusion is that they should have sufficient taxing power to do this, otherwise you get the cockup that is the current state of affairs.

Wildflame, where do you think this will leave us? Differential tax rates across the states? Income tax being cut at federal level and raised at state level?

Hmm. possibilities are immense. It won't be a popular thing to do, but maybe its time we had a government suicidal enough to contemplate these things. After all, the polls are suggesting the Libs are here for a good time, not a long time!