Asking for a raise

[FIRE47]

I am in the process of advising my SO through this process and thought this was a good place to seek additional advise. I will lay out the facts and what my current opinion is. Trying to keep it concise but still capture the relevant facts as best I can.

The facts:
Background
I moved away for 2 years to pursue better career options and once my SO completed her accounting designation at her current employer at the time, within a  few months she found a position that was similar compensation wise but much better for long term  experience in the same city as me.

She has only  been in this position for 7 months. We are both only 4 years out of school.

The current position is far more general and transferable - she had trouble in her initial job search to move here as her previous skills were very niche, especially for small- medium size cities

After around 3-4 months of searching the  current position decided to give her a chance but downgraded the initial offer from a senior to junior position along with an associated lower level of pay (still in line with her previous job). With the reasoning that her previous experience wasn't overly transferable. (Was this just aggressive bargaining on their part? Personally I've never seen anything like this before but on the face of it it made some sense)

With the  experience being gained at this new position she probably would have gotten most of the offers she did not get before when looking to move here, as it was the main hole in her resume.

This now brings us to today.

She has taken over all of the roles included in the more  senior job description she was initially downgraded from, and then some.

They currently lost another team member and she is doing 2/3 of her work on top of her own job (this is also invaluable experience as well)

OT is unpaid however mainly  due to the point above is now far more than anticipated

My recommendation is that if she has demonstratively fulfilled and even exceeded  the duties outlined in the initial job description for the more senior role she should ask to be be upgraded to that role as soon as possible.

I estimate her current rate of pay to be 15-20% below market based on working personally in the industry.

Am I being too aggressive in this recommendation, too passive?

[NorCal]

She should absolutely ask for a raise, and you're thinking about it in the right way.  The request should be framed around responsibilities, work competence, and market rates for her type of work.

Use Glassdoor to look up other comparable salaries in your city just to be sure local rates are the same as the rates you remember.  More data points are good.  She should know those off the top of her head.

If her pay is 15-20% below market, she should ask for a 20-30% raise.  This is a negotiation after all.

Good luck!

[MonkeyJenga]

Yes, she should definitely ask for a raise and title bump. If her job has any measurable effect on the company's bottom line, she should bring those numbers to the table. Regardless of the outcome of this negotiation, she should start looking externally to see if she can get a better offer.

In the future, if anyone finds themselves in this position, you should negotiate this upfront with the job offer. Negotiate for the higher position and salary as much as possible, but if the company won't budge, offer to do a 6 month trial period. If you can manage the higher responsibility and get a positive review, then you get the promotion and raise. I did this successfully with one job, when I was moving into a manager role without any management experience.

[clarkfan1979]

I would ask for a raise. Although, I would be a little more comfortable doing it after being there for one year. If they say no, then I would immediately start applying to other jobs.

[FIRE47]

I would ask for a raise. Although, I would be a little more comfortable doing it after being there for one year. If they say no, then I would immediately start applying to other jobs.

Yea that's the part that makes me a bit uneasy about it having only been there 7 months

However my fear is if you take on all of these new responsibilities for too long they could just become part of the current  junior position permanently. Making it even harder to move up in the future.

[Vilgan]

Ask now. When she was hired they had no clue what they were getting. 7 months is plenty to determine that they got a good deal and she is able to handle the responsibilities.

[NorCal]

My normal advice would be to wait for a year, however I would ask now given the situation.

She was explicitly given lower pay and a lower title when hired because they felt she couldn't handle the responsibility.  If they want her to handle the responsibility, she should be entitled to the promotion and raise.

Otherwise, she should start looking for outside employment now.

[RedmondStash]

I agree that it's not too soon if they have escalated her work responsibilities to the level of the senior position, especially since she's also doing a good chunk of another person's job.

I'd suggest that she lay out her case and ask, but issue no ultimatums or threats. And if they turn her down, it would be reasonable for her to ask when she could expect to be compensated at the level at which she is now working. Possibly she & her management can work out a timeline.

It would also be good for her to figure out what she'll do if they say no, and to prepare to put an accepting public face on that "no" if it happens, which will give her some time to consider her options.

In my experience, just asking for a raise, politely and with a good business argument, is fine. I've done it before, and I'm pretty sure that without having done it, I wouldn't have gotten a raise at all. There is a slight risk that this will ruffle feathers, so she should be prepared for that too -- and if that happens, it's a bad sign about the toxicity/dysfunction of the place she works. But best case scenario, either she gets the raise now, or she gets a commitment as to when it will happen. And if it doesn't happen then, she'll have more experience and thus more options.

[FIRE47]

I agree that it's not too soon if they have escalated her work responsibilities to the level of the senior position, especially since she's also doing a good chunk of another person's job.

I'd suggest that she lay out her case and ask, but issue no ultimatums or threats. And if they turn her down, it would be reasonable for her to ask when she could expect to be compensated at the level at which she is now working. Possibly she & her management can work out a timeline.

It would also be good for her to figure out what she'll do if they say no, and to prepare to put an accepting public face on that "no" if it happens, which will give her some time to consider her options.

In my experience, just asking for a raise, politely and with a good business argument, is fine. I've done it before, and I'm pretty sure that without having done it, I wouldn't have gotten a raise at all. There is a slight risk that this will ruffle feathers, so she should be prepared for that too -- and if that happens, it's a bad sign about the toxicity/dysfunction of the place she works. But best case scenario, either she gets the raise now, or she gets a commitment as to when it will happen. And if it doesn't happen then, she'll have more experience and thus more options.

Yea for sure - being prepared with a plan for a no is a good call. At this point it's still good learning and addresses directly all of the things that would have landed her a few much higher paying jobs in her initial search when moving here,as well as just more experience overall. Also don't know about leaving after just 7 months at this point I would think. So tbh there's not a whole lot to do with a no right now other then keep up the good performance and learning as much as possible for another few months then making a move.

Even so that's still better than possibly leaving 15% on the table for a year and being in the dark for another 12 months until you know their plan.

[RobFIRE]

Sounds like best course is to ask politely for a timeframe to promotion/compensation increases to the senior role. If asked politely without any threat then employer could defer decision until e.g. 1 year mark reached, without upsetting anybody.

I think it's also fair to say that 7 months is still a relatively short time in a job e.g. your SO may have only done the senior role for one financial year end etc., employer may reasonably say that fully at senior role means multiple years of experience. Reasonable to ask now from the perspective of getting feedback whether on track to meet criteria for senior role, and politely setting expectations that if fulfilling the role the employer should fulfil the compensation side. If your SO is doing well then any employer with any sense will realize that their hiring gamble paid off and they need to explain and provide a path to the senior role and compensation.

[mm1970]

My recommendation is that if she has demonstratively fulfilled and even exceeded  the duties outlined in the initial job description for the more senior role she should ask to be be upgraded to that role as soon as possible.

I estimate her current rate of pay to be 15-20% below market based on working personally in the industry.

Am I being too aggressive in this recommendation, too passive?

Sounds good to me.  I've often counseled younger engineers (and once my husband) on how to get a better paying job, or a raise.

For my husband, I sent him into his first review with salary review information.  His first year raise thus doubled.

For the younger engineers I've worked with, I've recommended this process when given a poor raise (3%, which is sort of standard - but then you never get a big bump that corresponds with the more responsibility):
- Go in with a documented list of your responsibilities and accomplishments
- Go in with the list of requirements for your position and the next one up (if you have it).  My old company actually had these designations: "Engineer Levels 1-5".  It sounds like, based on the initial negotiations, that you can easily document this.
- Go in with a salary review for the new position
- Ask for the raise.  If they say no, then simply ask: "What OTHER things must I accomplish/ take over in order to get to this position?"

This often works, unless the company is run by a bunch of stupid, cheap-ass bozos (and I've seen that too).

Also, recognize that your spouse is a woman. Sad to say, that is going to be part of it.  I wish it wasn't.  It's worse at my age but - I was *just* catching up with an old friend yesterday, and she noted that when she and her husband both graduated and applied for the same jobs, his straight-up job offers, no experience, were $10k more than hers.  Before negotiations!  Argh.

[Mr.Tako]

I would be very careful asking for a raise.  I've been in a similar situation where I was doing the work of multiple people, and paid below market rates.

I asked for a raise and two weeks later I was laid off.  It all depends upon who you work for I guess.

[SyZ]

My first year working for this company I was rated as 'average' instead of 'above average' in two categories I had scores of 100% on. I told my manager 'Oh, I guess I'll work on getting better than 100% so I can get above average next year?'

She said ".... oh, good point, I didn't realize that"

She then changed my 4% raise to a 5% raise

Sometimes it's worth it to say something

[FIRE47]

I would be very careful asking for a raise.  I've been in a similar situation where I was doing the work of multiple people, and paid below market rates.

I asked for a raise and two weeks later I was laid off.  It all depends upon who you work for I guess.

I guess there is always that risk but in theory you could go your whole career playing it safe to avoid that 5% chance and leave a ton on the table.

If you go about it the right way and allow some wiggle room etc I don't see how it could go too badly.

In all honesty that could actually be a blessing even if it took 6-12 months for her to find something, we graduated at the same time same school same major and myself and others I know are making 65% more.

My 15-20% estimate is allowing for the particular position and entity.

[mm1970]

I would be very careful asking for a raise.  I've been in a similar situation where I was doing the work of multiple people, and paid below market rates.

I asked for a raise and two weeks later I was laid off.  It all depends upon who you work for I guess.

I guess there is always that risk but in theory you could go your whole career playing it safe to avoid that 5% chance and leave a ton on the table.

If you go about it the right way and allow some wiggle room etc I don't see how it could go too badly.

In all honesty that could actually be a blessing even if it took 6-12 months for her to find something, we graduated at the same time same school same major and myself and others I know are making 65% more.

My 15-20% estimate is allowing for the particular position and entity.

"Asking for a raise" should always come with the "increased responsibility" discussion.  You don't want a raise because you want a raise, you've EARNED The raise by doing a harder job.

So whenever I have counseled others, it's always been with the recommendation to point out the job title and job requirements, with the question of "what ELSE do I need to be doing to get to the next level?"

In many cases, the boss realizes they are already there!  Not all bosses are trying to screw you, sometimes they are just oblivious.
In some cases, they are easily able to articulate the new projects.
In some cases, they are comparing you to other people in the group and you aren't the superstar. So they have to save the extra $$ for the superstar.
In some cases, they are a penny pinching jerk who wants to keep you there for the least amount of money.  So look elsewhere.

[zinethstache]

How does she feel about the job? Is she ready to be rejected and yes, perhaps be shown the door?

I was given a chance at an Engineering Aide job a very long time ago now (scary!) and I did a great job. They started me at well under the average for the job (its a large enough company that has a scale, with a low medium and high range. Well I did that job for at least 2 years before I finally decided enough is enough. I made sure I was an invaluable team member and that all my engineers were dependent on me before I pulled out my pay me the mean for my job card. I was ready to go job hunting. I'd done all my research, I told them what would be required for me to stay. by the following monday I had my $2.25 raise (a HUGE percentage at that time).

Ok so 7 months is a little premature BUT, I could kick myself for not acting sooner, I left so much money on the table being patient... I say better for her to be up front about her expectations and get a dialoque going now, even if nothing changes until the one year mark.

Good luck!

[FIRE47]

After further consideration she decided it was best to wait for another month or so simply for the fact that they are swamped right now due to year-end and it may not be the best timing to schedule such a meeting which would then cause likely another series of meetings for her boss.

In addition in another month she will have been there for all intents and purposes through a full annual cycle (the year-end audit is in a couple weeks and the books are just being closed now) and have more evidence to build upon her case.

[plainjane]

After further consideration she decided it was best to wait for another month or so simply for the fact that they are swamped right now due to year-end and it may not be the best timing to schedule such a meeting which would then cause likely another series of meetings for her boss.

As a comment - in some companies this is a really bad idea.  By year end, all the budgets for next year are set, and there is less space for individual bumps out of cycle.  Is there any chance to ask co-workers about timing of raises?

[FIRE47]

After further consideration she decided it was best to wait for another month or so simply for the fact that they are swamped right now due to year-end and it may not be the best timing to schedule such a meeting which would then cause likely another series of meetings for her boss.

As a comment - in some companies this is a really bad idea.  By year end, all the budgets for next year are set, and there is less space for individual bumps out of cycle.  Is there any chance to ask co-workers about timing of raises?

Good point - I think they are at least somewhat beholden to set budgets and this could come into play.

Could be a rock and a hard place scenario as trying add more to your bosses plate in the busiest 3-4 weeks of the year could offend or set someone off who could normally have been on your side or appear fairly selfish/brazen. That's just a worst case scenario though.

[AZDude]

Does the company have an annual performance review? Generally speaking, you want to plant the seed a couple months prior, and then lay out your case during your review.

Some points in her favor:

1) Clearly they have the money since they originally budgeted for a senior level employee.
2) She is doing the work of a senior level employee.
3) Even if they say no, they are "swamped", so the normally small chance of something bad happening is that much lower.
4) The experience she is getting is making her very marketable and thus more valuable to both her current employer and other companies.