Author Topic: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much  (Read 12339 times)

Moustachienne

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Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« on: August 22, 2015, 06:44:57 PM »
This argument won't be news to the MMM community but great that it is in a mainstream publication like the New Yorker.  I'm pessimistic that there will be any systemic shift but maybe a few more people will be encouraged to find their own "better way".

"...some industries have simply become giant make-work projects that trap everyone within them."

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/you-really-dont-need-to-work-so-much

Dicey

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 07:52:28 PM »
"Today it is people in skilled trades who can most find reasonable hours coupled with good pay; the American professional is among those subject to humiliation and driven like a beast of burden."

Wow! This really resonated with me. DH is a skilled tradesman who holds a union position at a local utility. His hours are limited (no nights or weekends, every other Friday off), he takes no work home with him, fields no calls after hours, gets healthcare with no monthly premiums for the whole family, earns tons of vacation hours, banks all of his sick leave, gets all the major holidays plus the crazy-ass ones too, AND has a defined-benefit pension plan. He loves his work and jokes after project-filled weekends that he has to go to work so he can relax. And he walks to work to boot.

My career was in sales, primarily outside sales. I have been an employee and an agent (self-employed, but answerable to specific manufacturers). My work environment was constantly and completely opposite of DH's, which is what drove me to FIRE.

I have thought much about the differences between our jobs. In sales, as in many fields in this country, good enough just never is. Everything is structured around increases. You can have a record-breaking year, but if you're only flat the following year, you're depicted as a loser. Why the fuck do we always have to have more? When is enough enough? In corporate America, the answer is NEVER.

Frankly, a huge part of mustachianism is understanding that there is a land called Enough. Pete's genius is in showing us all how to get there. For that I am eternally grateful. Now that I'm FIRE, I never forget for a moment how wonderful it feels. I hope that everyone who seeks FIRE finds the same joy.

minority_finance_mo

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 07:37:46 AM »
Diane, that always-reaching culture gives me some serious anxiety. As I'm done solving one difficult challenge, or overcoming a make-or-break type situation, there is no time to pause and enjoy the win. I have to be reaching for the next challenge like some cracked-out corporate robot.

That's starkly different than my freelance work. Any time I pick up a new client, that's immediately more money in my pocket and I can relax, congratulate myself on the win, and not feel like I need to get started on the next one right away. The reward is much greater in that scenario.

Now if only I could get over the desire for a "secure" paycheck.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 08:16:17 AM »
Ahhhhh, sales.

"You're only as good as your next deal."

I think the fact that so many jobs do treat people like a cog in a machine is one of the main reasons I have no problem walking away from them.

Except for Obamacare I would happily just work the part time gigs I like, and have more time to work on my ranch and enjoy life.

Come onnnnnnnnnnnnn, FIRE!



(edited because I can't spell before consuming caffeine. lots of caffeine. even then...)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 08:24:03 AM by The_path_less_taken »

oinkette

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 09:20:38 AM »
Considering I was literally told that I should be present more than the officially designated hours at my job even if it's "just to be a warm body" I doubt this will fly with my employer.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 09:34:23 AM »
DH and I were having essentially this conversation right before I saw this link. Great article, articulates the ideas we had and more.

pac_NW

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 01:33:34 PM »
What are some practical ways to limit working, to build good work habits?  How do you let it go?  We are FI but chose to go back to work for an opportunity we felt we could not pass up. That opportunity costs 50 to 60 hours of work per week. Ugh. Like the job but want more balance. Eager to hear your ideas.

Moustachienne

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 02:30:53 PM »
How to limit work and develop good, I.e. healthy work habits is a great question.  It's the same problem as with developing healthy eating habits or good spending/saving habits.  So much in our environment tells us to work, eat, spend more and more in unhealthy ways, and we internalize these messages.  When is enough, enough?  I think a really helpful thing is to find our "tribe",  so MMM and similar for dialling down consumerism and dialling up savings, SparkPeople, Weight Watchers or many others for dialling down bad eating habits and dialling up eating great, healthy foods.  I love collecting the "menus scolaires" from France to see a whole other idea of what enjoyable meals should look like for kids and everyone.  :)

I'd love to see suggestions for communities  for dialling down work for works sake and dialling up satisfaction through meaningful work.  MMM certainly has this angle.  I've also liked Study Hacks a lot for Cal Newport's argument that we should work hard and focus on what we find important, avoid pseudo work, and seriously protect non-work time.  http://calnewport.com/about/

velocistar237

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 03:31:03 PM »
Interesting that this article was written by Tim Wu, who coined the term "net neutrality." If it weren't for his efforts, insatiable greed would have swallowed up a common good.

Whoever can figure out the economic changes necessary to create a system that naturally steers society in a better direction will win a Nobel.

Considering I was literally told that I should be present more than the officially designated hours at my job even if it's "just to be a warm body" I doubt this will fly with my employer.

Read novels with fake business book covers.
Take a long lunch.
Visit a coworker down the hall, by way of the local park.
Tend your office garden.
Research your hobby.
Spend the time learning skills that could land you a different job.

It's still soul-sucking, though.

What are some practical ways to limit working, to build good work habits?  How do you let it go?  We are FI but chose to go back to work for an opportunity we felt we could not pass up. That opportunity costs 50 to 60 hours of work per week. Ugh. Like the job but want more balance. Eager to hear your ideas.

If you're FI, use it as leverage to reduce your hours.

Regarding building good work habits, I'm trying to do this, but it's extremely difficult. It doesn't really solve the problem of face time, though.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 03:43:35 PM »
What are some practical ways to limit working, to build good work habits?  How do you let it go?  We are FI but chose to go back to work for an opportunity we felt we could not pass up. That opportunity costs 50 to 60 hours of work per week. Ugh. Like the job but want more balance. Eager to hear your ideas.

Sometimes, you can't. That's the unfortunate truth of something that has become systemic- it forces you into all or nothing choices.

ck25

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 03:48:57 PM »
SO relevant to working in IT. This rang especially true:

"The fact that employees are now always reachable eliminates what was once a natural barrier of sorts, the idea that work was something that happened during office hours or at the physical office. With no limits, work becomes like a football game where the whistle is never blown."

On my last project, I saw someone getting chewed out by senior management for not answering his phone at 3 am.

Add to that how frequently my team is asked to work weekends, and the fact that one of my second line managers just told me that he will be making sure I have enough work to keep busy ten hours per day, and I am just SO tired of the current corporate environment.

kpd905

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 03:52:31 PM »
What are some practical ways to limit working, to build good work habits?  How do you let it go?  We are FI but chose to go back to work for an opportunity we felt we could not pass up. That opportunity costs 50 to 60 hours of work per week. Ugh. Like the job but want more balance. Eager to hear your ideas.

Tell them you want to work less.  If they fire you, who cares, you are already FI.  You have your F you money.

Digital Dogma

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 09:07:33 AM »
SO relevant to working in IT. This rang especially true:

"The fact that employees are now always reachable eliminates what was once a natural barrier of sorts, the idea that work was something that happened during office hours or at the physical office. With no limits, work becomes like a football game where the whistle is never blown."

On my last project, I saw someone getting chewed out by senior management for not answering his phone at 3 am.

Add to that how frequently my team is asked to work weekends, and the fact that one of my second line managers just told me that he will be making sure I have enough work to keep busy ten hours per day, and I am just SO tired of the current corporate environment.

Oh boy, i wouldnt last there very long. Id be the one chewing out my employer for calling me at 3am when Im not receiving on call pay. That should be a garunteed 4 hours pay.

ShaneD

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 10:39:07 AM »
What are some practical ways to limit working, to build good work habits?  How do you let it go?

I had to go freelance to find the balance. Despite my own desire to limit work and find good work-life balance, my places of work always had different goals in mind and no care for my work-life balance or burnout. In part it's the nature of what I did for a living, and in part the places I ended up. I just never could find that employer that valued their employees in a way that allowed me to find those good habits, so finally I had to change what I do for a living and how I do it. Comes with a whole different set of stresses, of course, but at least now, if I don't succeed at limiting my work or finding that balance, it's because of my own decisions, rather than someone else's.

Stillwantluxuries

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 03:51:18 PM »
"Today it is people in skilled trades who can most find reasonable hours coupled with good pay; the American professional is among those subject to humiliation and driven like a beast of burden."

Wow! This really resonated with me. DH is a skilled tradesman who holds a union position at a local utility. His hours are limited (no nights or weekends, every other Friday off), he takes no work home with him, fields no calls after hours, gets healthcare with no monthly premiums for the whole family, earns tons of vacation hours, banks all of his sick leave, gets all the major holidays plus the crazy-ass ones too, AND has a defined-benefit pension plan. He loves his work and jokes after project-filled weekends that he has to go to work so he can relax. And he walks to work to boot.

My career was in sales, primarily outside sales. I have been an employee and an agent (self-employed, but answerable to specific manufacturers). My work environment was constantly and completely opposite of DH's, which is what drove me to FIRE.

I have thought much about the differences between our jobs. In sales, as in many fields in this country, good enough just never is. Everything is structured around increases. You can have a record-breaking year, but if you're only flat the following year, you're depicted as a loser. Why the fuck do we always have to have more? When is enough enough? In corporate America, the answer is NEVER.

Frankly, a huge part of mustachianism is understanding that there is a land called Enough. Pete's genius is in showing us all how to get there. For that I am eternally grateful. Now that I'm FIRE, I never forget for a moment how wonderful it feels. I hope that everyone who seeks FIRE finds the same joy.


Amen!  In sales there is no enough, in life there is. Aiming to exceed quota a few more years and the 'stache will be big enough to walk away!!

big_slacker

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2015, 07:31:15 PM »
A big change in my life came about after I read Tim Ferris' '4 hour workweek'. Although I'm not at all an entrepreneur, I applied the ideas there to my work.

I first convinced my boss work from home was a good idea both because of limited office space and being able to work instead of commuting. Removed from the office environment I just did my work from the AM to around noon or 2 depending. I did this work faster than anyone else in the office, so despite my relatively shorter hours I was getting as much or more done. Efficiency based work, not hour based.

The last 4 years I've been doing billable project based IT work. People back off when they have to pay you for every hour you work, they want you in and out. Again, efficiency based work.

The article mentions this as well and it's something I wholeheartedly believe in. I'm about getting the important work done, not about appearing that I'm getting SOMETHING done but not accomplishing anything. I'm vocal about this, and I only work for places that align with this philosophy. If this is something you strongly agree with then design your lifestyle, don't leave it in the hands of others. I'm not saying you can always walk out, but you can always have it in mind, look for the right opportunities and take them when they appear!

Bateaux

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2015, 10:12:00 AM »
Next month I'm moving to a position that will hopefully be less stressful and less hours.  I have no need for overtime any longer.  I'm staying on mainly for the benefits. 

JLee

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2015, 10:25:37 AM »
SO relevant to working in IT. This rang especially true:

"The fact that employees are now always reachable eliminates what was once a natural barrier of sorts, the idea that work was something that happened during office hours or at the physical office. With no limits, work becomes like a football game where the whistle is never blown."

On my last project, I saw someone getting chewed out by senior management for not answering his phone at 3 am.

Add to that how frequently my team is asked to work weekends, and the fact that one of my second line managers just told me that he will be making sure I have enough work to keep busy ten hours per day, and I am just SO tired of the current corporate environment.

Oh boy, i wouldnt last there very long. Id be the one chewing out my employer for calling me at 3am when Im not receiving on call pay. That should be a garunteed 4 hours pay.

Yuuuup. They don't even pay for my phone. :(

obstinate

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 12:03:26 AM »
Well, if you're on-call, that's part of what you sign up for, same as if you are an on-call physician, maintenance person, or anything else. Although that normally comes with some sort of hazard pay in the tech industry.

Back to the question of what you can do to work fewer hours: like any other negotiation, the very most important thing is to have a palatable alternative. Let's consider the scenario where you feel like you are working too much.

  • Begin working the amount you want to be working.
  • If no one notices or cares, stop. You've succeeded.
  • Someone noticed and is telling you to resume working at your previous level :(. Do you have a palatable alternative to doing what they ask?
    • No: Cry. Resume working at previous level.
    • Yes: Say, "No, thanks, I'm fine how I am. Take it or leave it." (In so many words.)

In this case, a "palatable alternative" is any alternative you would prefer to overwork. For example, if you have enough money to retire, you might prefer that. If there is a competitor who would pay you less but has a better work culture, that's an option. There are a variety of ways that can play out.

This also plays out in reverse. If you are indispensible (the sole engineer at a firm, a master of a rare technology or skill), the company must accept the labor you are willing to offer. However, if it's not enough to meet their needs, they may begin looking for ways to replace you. It's important to be aware of that dynamic.

If you really have no palatable alternative, the best you can hope for is essentially to beg and rely on their humanity. Which, if they had any, they would not be overworking you in the first place.

patrickza

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 06:53:01 AM »
It would be interesting to find out how many hours people actually work at the office. From what I see around me, and as IT staff, I can see that there are many hours spent on social media/time wasting sites. I'd be willing to bet that if you negotiated a 5 hour work day, and staff promised to work as hard as possible that you'd have a more productive team overall.

nawhite

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 08:24:39 AM »
It would be interesting to find out how many hours people actually work at the office. From what I see around me, and as IT staff, I can see that there are many hours spent on social media/time wasting sites. I'd be willing to bet that if you negotiated a 5 hour work day, and staff promised to work as hard as possible that you'd have a more productive team overall.

I work in IT and I work remotely full time and everyone on my team does too. I've never met in-person some people I work with every day. What makes it work is a culture of tracking work done instead of tracking time in the office. Most companies that aren't ok with people working remotely are just bad at tracking what work is getting done. We use a ticketing system (jira.com) to track all projects and all work we are currently working on. Once you have the process in place for managers to know what is being worked on by whom and when it should be done, they stop caring about the hours you put in. I probably average around 6 hours a day of REAL work on a slow week and then I close the laptop lid. Everyone is ok with it because everyone knows the work is getting done because of the process we have in place.

big_slacker

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 08:49:10 AM »
What makes it work is a culture of tracking work done instead of tracking time in the office. Most companies that aren't ok with people working remotely are just bad at tracking what work is getting done. We use a ticketing system (jira.com) to track all projects and all work we are currently working on. Once you have the process in place for managers to know what is being worked on by whom and when it should be done, they stop caring about the hours you put in. I probably average around 6 hours a day of REAL work on a slow week and then I close the laptop lid. Everyone is ok with it because everyone knows the work is getting done because of the process we have in place.

Booyah! Culture needs to shift from hourly to task driven. Anyone can drive in to an office and half ass for 8-9 hours. But if you know you need to do X tasks for the day or week or the boss is gonna be on you then your mentality shifts to getting shit done instead of punching a clock.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 01:48:32 PM »
I would love to work this way, because I happen to be very fast (and good) at what I do. I'm sick of killing time in the office, but I do it because I think my co-workers will resent me if I constantly come in late and leave early. When I managed people, we didn't exactly have a task-based system, but I could monitor productivity other ways. I hired great people that I could trust, let them telecommute 2x week (max company would allow). Never a problem.

Unfortunately, there are people who really won't be productive if they aren't in the office being watched. And management thinks everyone is like that.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2015, 09:20:41 AM »
Unfortunately, there are people who really won't be productive if they aren't in the office being watched. And management thinks everyone is like that.
Yep.  When I asked why we couldn't let people work from home, my boss said "how will we know what they're doing?".  I said "how do you know what they're doing now?".  He didn't have an answer for that one.

FatCat

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
Unfortunately, there are people who really won't be productive if they aren't in the office being watched. And management thinks everyone is like that.
Yep.  When I asked why we couldn't let people work from home, my boss said "how will we know what they're doing?".  I said "how do you know what they're doing now?".  He didn't have an answer for that one.


My company won't let us work from home because it will "destroy our culture." I'm guessing they enjoy the culture of people standing around in the break room gossiping.

Also some of the higher ups work from home whenever they want. And they said they just sit around watching TV or start doing laundry or mowing the lawn when they work from home so they know we will too. So we can't have even a work from home trial period to see if we're responsible enough to do our work from home because if management is incapable then so are we.

A few people are permitted to work from home because they moved too far away to commute and management thought it would be easier to let them remote in instead of replace them. They have to have a camera at their desk aimed at them all the time that management can click on whenever they want to confirm that they are at their desks and wearing office environment appropriate shirts.  (No t-shirts, pajama tops, etc. It sets a bad mood for productivity apparently.)

MrsCoolCat

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2015, 02:40:50 PM »
I would love to work this way, because I happen to be very fast (and good) at what I do. I'm sick of killing time in the office, but I do it because I think my co-workers will resent me if I constantly come in late and leave early. When I managed people, we didn't exactly have a task-based system, but I could monitor productivity other ways. I hired great people that I could trust, let them telecommute 2x week (max company would allow). Never a problem.

Unfortunately, there are people who really won't be productive if they aren't in the office being watched. And management thinks everyone is like that.

Ditto on the coworkers. It's hard to step away (even for lunch) if ur coworkers are all glued to their desks (working or not) bc I'm the one leaving mine to walk, nap, errands or whatever. Ahh the joys of corporate. Sarcasm. I'm saving this thread to read later.

Leisured

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2015, 12:32:22 AM »
A large part of the problem is simply social inertia. We are so used to working to produce goods and services that we have not yet adjusted to the possibility of automatic operation.

In Australia, social commentators have identified what they call the ‘aspirational class’. These people usually have professional qualifications, and take pride in ‘getting ahead’, which includes working long hours. I think what we call the aspirational class fits the phenomenon of overworked professionals in the US.

The laws of nature allow automatic operation. If I stand up and walk about, my heart rate rises automatically, as does my breathing. If I turn my gaze from the computer screen to the view out of the window, my eyes change focus automatically. My food is digested automatically. My body is a miniature automated economy.

Scientists began to understand the basics of automatic operation in the 1950s, together with the understanding that automatic operation fits into the laws of Nature. Making an automated economy is an intelligence test set us by Mother Nature, and nobody wants to fail this intelligence test, do they?

Many people, including economists and the aspirational class, live in a parallel world, and do not even understand that Mother Nature has set us an intelligence test.

Economists propose methods of keeping economies growing endlessly, just to soak up labor. In a finite world we cannot grow indefinitely, so a MMM type economy makes sense.

I suspect that the delaying tactics of economists and other reactionaries will be temporary, and that when automation hits in a big way, perhaps 15 years into the future, a lot of this reactionary behaviour will go.

In the future, astute people will stabilise world population and live the good life supported by an automated economy, like Jane Austen’s landowners, but supported by machines rather than peasants and workers. How many people are astute?

PFHC

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2015, 01:04:39 AM »
Want to working less? Then, work less. 6 months of the year, I don't work at all. But, I still get paid.

I'm a merchant mariner and am a Second Assistant Engineerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_assistant_engineer.

I run the engine room team on a 800' ship. I work for 3-4 weeks, then I get 3-4 weeks off. Like entirely, completely, totally off. No calls, emails, anything. Off.

Yes, I am married and have two kiddos, age 3 and 5. Yes, they freaking love it.

If you're interested in how to become a merchant mariner, feel free to PM. It's awesome.

psyclotr0n

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Re: Article - You Really Don't Need to Work So Much
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2015, 08:37:50 PM »
Yep, this is the general dilemma with running out the clock til FI, having to deal with all the corporate culture crap without losing your soul. I keep telling myself I'll be better off for it because when I'm FI I'll be able to do what I want without the corrupting force of money, but the quitting fantasies are getting stronger!