Author Topic: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?  (Read 10056 times)


effigy98

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2018, 01:05:04 AM »
Supply and demand is mostly to blame here. It is unfortunate the lessons of FI are not taught to our kids so they can make informed decisions before taking on massive debt. Nobody has to go to college, it is a luxury. Parents forcing college down the throats of their kids are doing more harm then good. There are many professions available that do not require college and some can pay insanely well if you are willing to work for it (like coding). Lucky for them, they do have resources like this website and many others to help them now which the generations before did not. It is easier then ever to self teach at the college of youtube for FREE.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 01:07:15 AM by effigy98 »

BTDretire

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2018, 07:29:08 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

nereo

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2018, 07:38:25 AM »
Supply and demand is mostly to blame here. It is unfortunate the lessons of FI are not taught to our kids so they can make informed decisions before taking on massive debt. Nobody has to go to college, it is a luxury. Parents forcing college down the throats of their kids are doing more harm then good. There are many professions available that do not require college and some can pay insanely well if you are willing to work for it (like coding). Lucky for them, they do have resources like this website and many others to help them now which the generations before did not. It is easier then ever to self teach at the college of youtube for FREE.

I'm going to push back against this idea somewhat.
Now to begin I'll readily admit that you are correct that some occupations do not require post-secondary education, and that there are career tracks - largely in the trades - that can be obtained by simply going to a trade school or technical degree vs a 4-year college. But even there those require an additional level of education.

On an individual level - yes - a person can still have a long and prosperous career without attending college.  However, on a societal level this is no longer the case.  There simply are not enough jobs available for people without a college degree to satisfy the 160 million people in the US labor force; currently only 36% of jobs do not require education beyond high-school, and that percentage is shrinking. Even for those jobs, many applicants will find themselves competing with others that have a college degree, particularly during a tight labor market.

Are parents "forcing college down [kids] throats", or are they establishing a minimum acceptable level of education?  I suppose its in the eye of the beholder, but given that very soon a majority of workers age 25-34 will have at least an undergraduate degree this will be the norm.  Compare that with just 4% just before WWII. This isn't terribly surprising, given the rise of the global marketplace and the increasingly complexity of many jobs; while high-school was enough to prepare a person for an 'average' job 40 years ago, this is no longer the case.  Only a few generations ago a high-school diploma was considered unnecessary, and a minority completed that level of education.  Now there's near-universal agreement (and in most places laws and regulations) that children should attend school through their 18th birthday, whcih tends to correspond with the end of high-school. We are rapidly moving into a world where that norm is going to be 21 or 22, and some form of post-highschool degree.

There will always be kids that don't fit the mold and who can't thrive in a school environment. I'm actually a very big proponent of increasing paths to trades and technical degrees which don't require tehm to go through the 4-year college track. I like how other countries have set up these alternative tracks. But any way you slice it that's for a minority of future jobs, and still requires most to spend at least a couple years in school after high-school.
Just my 2¢ on the matter...

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2018, 07:50:41 AM »
I've always attributed a major part of the problem to what seems to be the same problem in healthcare - a drastic increase in administrators as well as paying many of those administrators very well.  Supply and demand could be a factor as well, but the sad fact is that many jobs that do not require a degree in order to do the job, now require applicants to have a degree.  My spouse without a degree has a difficult time with this when he is job hunting. 

partdopy

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2018, 07:53:54 AM »
Supply and demand is mostly to blame here. It is unfortunate the lessons of FI are not taught to our kids so they can make informed decisions before taking on massive debt. Nobody has to go to college, it is a luxury. Parents forcing college down the throats of their kids are doing more harm then good. There are many professions available that do not require college and some can pay insanely well if you are willing to work for it (like coding). Lucky for them, they do have resources like this website and many others to help them now which the generations before did not. It is easier then ever to self teach at the college of youtube for FREE.

I'm going to push back against this idea somewhat.
Now to begin I'll readily admit that you are correct that some occupations do not require post-secondary education, and that there are career tracks - largely in the trades - that can be obtained by simply going to a trade school or technical degree vs a 4-year college. But even there those require an additional level of education.

On an individual level - yes - a person can still have a long and prosperous career without attending college.  However, on a societal level this is no longer the case.  There simply are not enough jobs available for people without a college degree to satisfy the 160 million people in the US labor force; currently only 36% of jobs do not require education beyond high-school, and that percentage is shrinking. Even for those jobs, many applicants will find themselves competing with others that have a college degree, particularly during a tight labor market.

Are parents "forcing college down [kids] throats", or are they establishing a minimum acceptable level of education?  I suppose its in the eye of the beholder, but given that very soon a majority of workers age 25-34 will have at least an undergraduate degree this will be the norm.  Compare that with just 4% just before WWII. This isn't terribly surprising, given the rise of the global marketplace and the increasingly complexity of many jobs; while high-school was enough to prepare a person for an 'average' job 40 years ago, this is no longer the case.  Only a few generations ago a high-school diploma was considered unnecessary, and a minority completed that level of education.  Now there's near-universal agreement (and in most places laws and regulations) that children should attend school through their 18th birthday, whcih tends to correspond with the end of high-school. We are rapidly moving into a world where that norm is going to be 21 or 22, and some form of post-highschool degree.

There will always be kids that don't fit the mold and who can't thrive in a school environment. I'm actually a very big proponent of increasing paths to trades and technical degrees which don't require tehm to go through the 4-year college track. I like how other countries have set up these alternative tracks. But any way you slice it that's for a minority of future jobs, and still requires most to spend at least a couple years in school after high-school.
Just my 2¢ on the matter...

I'm pretty sure the reason so many jobs require a degree in 2018 is because they can. There is simply a large surplus of people who went to college pursuing degrees that don't have practical, real world applications so they take administrative jobs, retail supervision jobs, etc... Of course an employer would rather have an office administrator with a degree in anything rather than not, and since there is a bunch of job seekers available with degrees in psychology or fine arts and the like, the employer can require it.

If people stopped going to college unless they had a career goal that actually requires college (engineering, teaching, law, etc...) then there wouldn't be such a weird job market. Of course, the ability of people to finance an education with no prospects is a huge problem.  I think making student loans dischargable in bk would solve this as nobody will loan you money for a degree in Klingon if they can't collect from you for life.

coppertop

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2018, 08:22:21 AM »
62-year-old granny here ...  one of my biggest regrets is stopping college at an associates' degree.  I was upwardly mobile in my job managing a law office until they hired an MBA in another position and the lawyers decided she knew everything there was to know about running a business because of that degree, so they began migrating chunks of my job over to her.  She was terrible with people, and the staff disliked her, but the attorneys did not see it and my job became little more than drudge work.  I could not move elsewhere at that point because of not having at least a bachelor's degree. 

I'm not saying I think it's wise to take out a kajillion dollars in student loans ... but if you want to remain viable in the job market, find a way to get that degree, even if you have to go at night for years while working your full-time job.  Fortunately for me, I have a husband who is frugal as well as capable of doing almost every maintenance and construction job around the home, so we were able to pay off our mortgage way early and sock away every available dollar and retire at much younger ages than most of our peers.  But I could have done it even better had I had a degree. 

catccc

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2018, 08:30:57 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I really think this makes sense, and I never really thought about it until I read a casual line in JL Collins' "Simple Path to Wealth."  I think he may have been talking about cars?  Maybe how middle-income families drive around in $30-$40K new cars when they should be in a $10K used car?  The loan terms make it appear affordable. 

I am 39 and I have coworkers (so people in decent paying jobs) that are still paying off their undergrad education.  Those are some long loan terms.

If borrowing money wasn't so easy, I think colleges would have to make tuition more affordable.

Maybe it's less supply of education and demands of students, but supply of loans and demands of schools.

I guess I'll go read the article now to learn the answer...

fattest_foot

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2018, 09:37:05 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I tend to think this is likely the problem. The debt is too easy to take out which in turn drives the cost up.

I think things like administrators and constantly updated construction are symptoms of the problem. The institutions have to do something with the money and there's only so much demand for additional classes (professors).

nereo

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2018, 10:05:35 AM »
Supply and demand is mostly to blame here. It is unfortunate the lessons of FI are not taught to our kids so they can make informed decisions before taking on massive debt. Nobody has to go to college, it is a luxury. Parents forcing college down the throats of their kids are doing more harm then good. There are many professions available that do not require college and some can pay insanely well if you are willing to work for it (like coding). Lucky for them, they do have resources like this website and many others to help them now which the generations before did not. It is easier then ever to self teach at the college of youtube for FREE.

I'm going to push back against this idea somewhat.
Now to begin I'll readily admit that you are correct that some occupations do not require post-secondary education, and that there are career tracks - largely in the trades - that can be obtained by simply going to a trade school or technical degree vs a 4-year college. But even there those require an additional level of education.

On an individual level - yes - a person can still have a long and prosperous career without attending college.  However, on a societal level this is no longer the case.  There simply are not enough jobs available for people without a college degree to satisfy the 160 million people in the US labor force; currently only 36% of jobs do not require education beyond high-school, and that percentage is shrinking. Even for those jobs, many applicants will find themselves competing with others that have a college degree, particularly during a tight labor market.

Are parents "forcing college down [kids] throats", or are they establishing a minimum acceptable level of education?  I suppose its in the eye of the beholder, but given that very soon a majority of workers age 25-34 will have at least an undergraduate degree this will be the norm.  Compare that with just 4% just before WWII. This isn't terribly surprising, given the rise of the global marketplace and the increasingly complexity of many jobs; while high-school was enough to prepare a person for an 'average' job 40 years ago, this is no longer the case.  Only a few generations ago a high-school diploma was considered unnecessary, and a minority completed that level of education.  Now there's near-universal agreement (and in most places laws and regulations) that children should attend school through their 18th birthday, whcih tends to correspond with the end of high-school. We are rapidly moving into a world where that norm is going to be 21 or 22, and some form of post-highschool degree.

There will always be kids that don't fit the mold and who can't thrive in a school environment. I'm actually a very big proponent of increasing paths to trades and technical degrees which don't require tehm to go through the 4-year college track. I like how other countries have set up these alternative tracks. But any way you slice it that's for a minority of future jobs, and still requires most to spend at least a couple years in school after high-school.
Just my 2¢ on the matter...

I'm pretty sure the reason so many jobs require a degree in 2018 is because they can. There is simply a large surplus of people who went to college pursuing degrees that don't have practical, real world applications so they take administrative jobs, retail supervision jobs, etc... Of course an employer would rather have an office administrator with a degree in anything rather than not, and since there is a bunch of job seekers available with degrees in psychology or fine arts and the like, the employer can require it.

If people stopped going to college unless they had a career goal that actually requires college (engineering, teaching, law, etc...) then there wouldn't be such a weird job market. Of course, the ability of people to finance an education with no prospects is a huge problem.  I think making student loans dischargable in bk would solve this as nobody will loan you money for a degree in Klingon if they can't collect from you for life.


I'm pretty sure the reason so many jobs require a degree in 2018 is because they can. There is simply a large surplus of people who went to college pursuing degrees that don't have practical, real world applications so they take administrative jobs, retail supervision jobs, etc... Of course an employer would rather have an office administrator with a degree in anything rather than not, and since there is a bunch of job seekers available with degrees in psychology or fine arts and the like, the employer can require it.

If people stopped going to college unless they had a career goal that actually requires college (engineering, teaching, law, etc...) then there wouldn't be such a weird job market. Of course, the ability of people to finance an education with no prospects is a huge problem.  I think making student loans dischargable in bk would solve this as nobody will loan you money for a degree in Klingon if they can't collect from you for life.

This is a frequent counter-argument; that if so many jobs didn't require a college education and if employers stoped prioritizing applicants with college degrees young adults would no longer need to go to college. There may be some truth to this, but its unclear how you could ever reverse the trend.  Further, all jokes about 'majoring in Klingon' aside, one solidly established fact is that people who have a college degree are on average better at everything from math to reading comprehension and problem solving. That's exactly what we'd expect, and gives an undergraduate degree merit even when the individuals major is unrelated to their career path. This might explain why employers favor college graduates even for jobs that might at passing glance might not need them.  To rephrase what you said earlier, I'm pretty sure employers favor applicants with a college degree because they have better mental skills.  From a strictly financial perspective, the median salary for a college gradaute is about $30k higher, so while college remains a large cost (and we should do more to address that), the ROI is around 4 years. 

If you'll re-read my earlier posting carefully, you'll see that I'm a strong supporter of more vocational training, and I've seen this work fairly well in other areas (e.g. Quebec).  But again, while this might help a small percentage of people that otherwise struggle and wind up perpetually underemployed, these programs have two inherent challenges.  The first is that there are not nearly enough jobs which could follow this path to negate the need for a 4-year college degree (discussed above), while the second is tied to maturity and deciding on a career path early on in life.  A big criticism of students going away to college is that many don't know what they want to do with their lives, and many conclude that these individuals are just 'wasting time and money (often their parents)'.  But vocational training at this age has an even more severe problem, as dropout rates tend to be very high as many 18/19 year olds who start quickly realize this is now the career path they want. At least in college students typically are exposed to multiple disciplines and educational requirements ensure they exit much better educated than when they entered.

Are there challenges and problems that need to be solved?  Absolutely.  As the OP's article highlights, int he US we spend more per-student on college than anywhere else but Luxenburg (which offers tuition at no cost to the student).  We've gutted both state and federal support of higher education in recent decades to the point where universities are increasingly relying on tuition for their operating budgets.  We also have a guidance problem where too many students bounce around for too long before finding their 'path'.  But these problems don't mean that we should try to funnel most children today towards some form of post-highschool education inthe years to come.
Like everything else in our society, access to easy money (credit) has led many to act irresponsibly and wind up with lots of debt.  Your suggestion allowing student loans to be dischargable in bankruptcy again is not a bad one, though given its abuses in the past and the federal government as a backstop we have to determine who would pay when students discharge their loans in this manner, and under what conditions it would be allowed.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 10:34:02 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I tend to think this is likely the problem. The debt is too easy to take out which in turn drives the cost up.

I think things like administrators and constantly updated construction are symptoms of the problem. The institutions have to do something with the money and there's only so much demand for additional classes (professors).

Agreed.

mm1970

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 11:08:29 AM »
Quote
If people stopped going to college unless they had a career goal that actually requires college (engineering, teaching, law, etc...) then there wouldn't be such a weird job market. Of course, the ability of people to finance an education with no prospects is a huge problem.  I think making student loans dischargable in bk would solve this as nobody will loan you money for a degree in Klingon if they can't collect from you for life.

I think about this a lot - my sister didn't go to college (I have many siblings, only 4 went to college, and 3 of the 4 were "non traditional" students - aka, older).  She's an office manager with 36 years of work experience.  She learned on the job.

To do that job now, in my company - to even answer phones - you need a degree.  We will not hire you otherwise.  How much of this is the "well, there are people who are available."  How much of this is that it's more complicated?  When my sister started work, it was shorthand and typing.  Now there are multiple computer systems.  Her very first job out of high school, she was the only one to learn the new computer system.  So she's capable of learning it.  I feel like there was a generation where computers were not learned in elementary/ high school, and college was where you learned it.  Obviously not the case now, kids are issued computers in elementary.

There's also the bit about moving up - from secretary to office manager.  If you hire someone without a degree as a receptionist - can they move up?  Certainly they can - learn the various computer systems, start working on the accounting systems - but you aren't ever going to be "the accountant", maybe a bookkeeper.

Families and students just need to refuse to play this game I think.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2018, 11:21:16 AM »
I find all of these articles so frustrating. While I get that they are analyzing an incredibly complicated system, they seem to end up by throwing up their hands and saying "We don't really know! It's just the market!"

And then there's this: It turns out that the vast majority of American college spending goes to routine educational operations—like paying staff and faculty—not to dining halls. These costs add up to about $23,000 per student a year—more than twice what Finland, Sweden, or Germany spends on core services. [...]
And college is a service delivered mostly by workers with college degrees—whose salaries have risen more dramatically than those of low-skilled service workers over the past several decades.


It really irks me that they put all faculty and all administrators together in a lump. While it's probably overly simplistic to blame the rise in administrators, the number of tenure-track faculty positions in many core disciplines have been decreasing for the last decade. Meanwhile, the number of courses taught by part-timers and adjuncts has increased dramatically. The year I started my PhD program, there were about 1600 open, full-time, tenure-track positions for PhDs in my field. Four years ago, when I finished, there were just over 800--that's the lowest number in 40 years. And at least in my field, salaries are NOT rising dramatically. When you put Business School and Medical School faculty in the same category for analysis as Foreign Language or Chemistry profs, for example, you're going to get some misleading results.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2018, 11:21:45 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I agree mostly.   Loans are easily accessible.   Financial institutions (including our government) LOVE to increase your debt!!  That's how they make money.
I would not say that grants are easily accessible. 

Colleges and Universities assume that federal loans are automatic and also private loans.  This gets factored in as they increase tuition/fees.






partdopy

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2018, 11:49:05 AM »
I think about this a lot - my sister didn't go to college (I have many siblings, only 4 went to college, and 3 of the 4 were "non traditional" students - aka, older).  She's an office manager with 36 years of work experience.  She learned on the job.

To do that job now, in my company - to even answer phones - you need a degree.  We will not hire you otherwise.  How much of this is the "well, there are people who are available."  How much of this is that it's more complicated?  When my sister started work, it was shorthand and typing.  Now there are multiple computer systems.  Her very first job out of high school, she was the only one to learn the new computer system.  So she's capable of learning it.  I feel like there was a generation where computers were not learned in elementary/ high school, and college was where you learned it.  Obviously not the case now, kids are issued computers in elementary.

There's also the bit about moving up - from secretary to office manager.  If you hire someone without a degree as a receptionist - can they move up?  Certainly they can - learn the various computer systems, start working on the accounting systems - but you aren't ever going to be "the accountant", maybe a bookkeeper.

Families and students just need to refuse to play this game I think.

It is because they can require a degree to answer phones, since there is a large supply of people with degrees they can't use.  Now, I don't think any (ok, maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) degrees are 'useless', however the US job market only needs so many art history, theater, psychology, history and other majors of this type.  In conflict with this reality is the fact that I (or anyone who gets accepted) can walk into a university today and enroll in an art history major with 100% funding from student loans that I will have to pay for life.

If there was some type of risk for the lender, it wouldn't be so easy to get a degree with no potential to find employment in the field, or with salaries far to low to repay a loan.  Allowing people to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy would free millions of people from loans that they can't ever hope to repay, and would surely drastically lower the number of students in programs with no job prospects - which are usually the people working at a call center despite having a bachelors degree.

Once this problem (caused by the government meddling and guaranteeing loans with our collective dollars) is fixed, the market will normalize and degrees will no longer be required everywhere, or a job simply won't be filled.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 11:50:37 AM by partdopy »

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 11:56:43 AM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I agree mostly.   Loans are easily accessible.   Financial institutions (including our government) LOVE to increase your debt!!  That's how they make money.
I would not say that grants are easily accessible. 

  If you have low income grants are easily available. And then there are scholarships,
I'm in Florida, both my kids got scholarships paying for a 4 year degree just for good grades.
Go Gators!

Quote
Colleges and Universities assume that federal loans are automatic and also private loans.  This gets factored in as they increase tuition/fees.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2018, 12:22:55 PM »
I think about this a lot - my sister didn't go to college (I have many siblings, only 4 went to college, and 3 of the 4 were "non traditional" students - aka, older).  She's an office manager with 36 years of work experience.  She learned on the job.

To do that job now, in my company - to even answer phones - you need a degree.  We will not hire you otherwise.  How much of this is the "well, there are people who are available."  How much of this is that it's more complicated?  When my sister started work, it was shorthand and typing.  Now there are multiple computer systems.  Her very first job out of high school, she was the only one to learn the new computer system.  So she's capable of learning it.  I feel like there was a generation where computers were not learned in elementary/ high school, and college was where you learned it.  Obviously not the case now, kids are issued computers in elementary.

There's also the bit about moving up - from secretary to office manager.  If you hire someone without a degree as a receptionist - can they move up?  Certainly they can - learn the various computer systems, start working on the accounting systems - but you aren't ever going to be "the accountant", maybe a bookkeeper.

Families and students just need to refuse to play this game I think.

It is because they can require a degree to answer phones, since there is a large supply of people with degrees they can't use.  Now, I don't think any (ok, maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) degrees are 'useless', however the US job market only needs so many art history, theater, psychology, history and other majors of this type.  In conflict with this reality is the fact that I (or anyone who gets accepted) can walk into a university today and enroll in an art history major with 100% funding from student loans that I will have to pay for life.

If there was some type of risk for the lender, it wouldn't be so easy to get a degree with no potential to find employment in the field, or with salaries far to low to repay a loan.  Allowing people to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy would free millions of people from loans that they can't ever hope to repay, and would surely drastically lower the number of students in programs with no job prospects - which are usually the people working at a call center despite having a bachelors degree.

Once this problem (caused by the government meddling and guaranteeing loans with our collective dollars) is fixed, the market will normalize and degrees will no longer be required everywhere, or a job simply won't be filled.

I think you've made a lot of assumptions which aren't necessarily true, exaggerated some aspects and reached a conclusion which I disagree with.

Student loans were dischargable via bankruptcy until a few decades ago when Congress made it much harder to do so.  Its also wrong to suggest that there is no risk for the lender because loans are difficult to discharge. Unlike a loans for tangible assets (e.g. a mortgage or car loan), the lenders cannot repo your college degree. Their risk is what you've already inadvertantly highlighted - that the student might not make enough to pay back the loan in a timely fashion, and here programs like income-based repayment and student loan forgiveness programs are risks to the lender.  So, also, is the student dying.

You also said these loans have to be paid back 'for life'.  In most cases the loans are mpaid back in 10 years, somtimes less.  Sure there are people who default or go through IBRP, etc.  But we're just poking the hornets nest to suggest loans follow you forever.  They follow you until they have been repaid, and broadly speaking having a college degree gives you a higher salary, and the ROI is around 4-5 years.  There are certainly ways of reducing that further

Ultimately though its your conclusion that the a 'normalizing' could happen where college degrees suddenly weren't widely needed and/or jobs just wouldn't get filled.  The free-market incentive for employers is always to hire the most qualified candidate for the job, the person that can generate the most productivity.  College graduates are simply better candidates on average than people with just a HS degree. Ergo, employers will continue to favor people with advanced degrees, regardess of whether our loan system and bankruptcy laws are changed.

I do agree with you that our current system of young adults relying heavily on non-dischargable loans is a big problem we need to solve.  However, changing this will not reduce the advantage a job applicant gets for having a degree, nor will it shift the priorities of employers away from more skilled and educated workers.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2018, 12:30:43 PM »
We do have a mentorship crisis in this country that contributes.  Much if that crisis is driven by the At-Will union-less reality of the USA's employment style.

Good jobs require experience.  There is zero loyalty left in the employment arena.  Employers kick folks to the curb whenever profits dip.  Employees go across the street as soon as the paycheck is better there.  There is zero incentive to spend money and time training anyone, as they can and will just leave.  So everyone wants 5-10 years experience, OR a Master's degree.

New workers have to either show up fully trained (i.e. years of college, likely a Master's degree too), or HR will screen them out before the hiring manager ever sees their resume.

partdopy

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2018, 12:50:49 PM »
I think about this a lot - my sister didn't go to college (I have many siblings, only 4 went to college, and 3 of the 4 were "non traditional" students - aka, older).  She's an office manager with 36 years of work experience.  She learned on the job.

To do that job now, in my company - to even answer phones - you need a degree.  We will not hire you otherwise.  How much of this is the "well, there are people who are available."  How much of this is that it's more complicated?  When my sister started work, it was shorthand and typing.  Now there are multiple computer systems.  Her very first job out of high school, she was the only one to learn the new computer system.  So she's capable of learning it.  I feel like there was a generation where computers were not learned in elementary/ high school, and college was where you learned it.  Obviously not the case now, kids are issued computers in elementary.

There's also the bit about moving up - from secretary to office manager.  If you hire someone without a degree as a receptionist - can they move up?  Certainly they can - learn the various computer systems, start working on the accounting systems - but you aren't ever going to be "the accountant", maybe a bookkeeper.

Families and students just need to refuse to play this game I think.

It is because they can require a degree to answer phones, since there is a large supply of people with degrees they can't use.  Now, I don't think any (ok, maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) degrees are 'useless', however the US job market only needs so many art history, theater, psychology, history and other majors of this type.  In conflict with this reality is the fact that I (or anyone who gets accepted) can walk into a university today and enroll in an art history major with 100% funding from student loans that I will have to pay for life.

If there was some type of risk for the lender, it wouldn't be so easy to get a degree with no potential to find employment in the field, or with salaries far to low to repay a loan.  Allowing people to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy would free millions of people from loans that they can't ever hope to repay, and would surely drastically lower the number of students in programs with no job prospects - which are usually the people working at a call center despite having a bachelors degree.

Once this problem (caused by the government meddling and guaranteeing loans with our collective dollars) is fixed, the market will normalize and degrees will no longer be required everywhere, or a job simply won't be filled.

I think you've made a lot of assumptions which aren't necessarily true, exaggerated some aspects and reached a conclusion which I disagree with.

Student loans were dischargable via bankruptcy until a few decades ago when Congress made it much harder to do so.  Its also wrong to suggest that there is no risk for the lender because loans are difficult to discharge. Unlike a loans for tangible assets (e.g. a mortgage or car loan), the lenders cannot repo your college degree. Their risk is what you've already inadvertantly highlighted - that the student might not make enough to pay back the loan in a timely fashion, and here programs like income-based repayment and student loan forgiveness programs are risks to the lender.  So, also, is the student dying.

You also said these loans have to be paid back 'for life'.  In most cases the loans are mpaid back in 10 years, somtimes less.  Sure there are people who default or go through IBRP, etc.  But we're just poking the hornets nest to suggest loans follow you forever.  They follow you until they have been repaid, and broadly speaking having a college degree gives you a higher salary, and the ROI is around 4-5 years.  There are certainly ways of reducing that further

Ultimately though its your conclusion that the a 'normalizing' could happen where college degrees suddenly weren't widely needed and/or jobs just wouldn't get filled.  The free-market incentive for employers is always to hire the most qualified candidate for the job, the person that can generate the most productivity.  College graduates are simply better candidates on average than people with just a HS degree. Ergo, employers will continue to favor people with advanced degrees, regardess of whether our loan system and bankruptcy laws are changed.

I do agree with you that our current system of young adults relying heavily on non-dischargable loans is a big problem we need to solve.  However, changing this will not reduce the advantage a job applicant gets for having a degree, nor will it shift the priorities of employers away from more skilled and educated workers.

Of course employers will favor those with degrees.  However, if you can't get student loans to pay for your degree that has no prospect of employment (I think 27% of people use their degrees) then there will be far, far less people getting clinical psychology, which makes up 6.2% of all graduates and has a median income of $12,000 less than the median of 'any college degree' - meaning it is the degree you are most likely to use to work in a field that shouldn't require one.

If there were no college graduates applying for the 17.50/hr insurance call center job (just an example) because there were very few students getting degrees with no clear and practical path, then the job would by nature have to either go to a non-college graduate or remain open.  Less graduates with no actual career path in their field = less graduates applying for anything they can get = more employability for non-graduates.

MilesTeg

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 02:07:27 PM »

Of course employers will favor those with degrees.  However, if you can't get student loans to pay for your degree that has no prospect of employment (I think 27% of people use their degrees) then there will be far, far less people getting clinical psychology, which makes up 6.2% of all graduates and has a median income of $12,000 less than the median of 'any college degree' - meaning it is the degree you are most likely to use to work in a field that shouldn't require one.

The real problem is there is a very wrong perception of what the purpose of a 4+ year university is. The perception is that it's a place to go get trained for a job. It's not, that's what a trade school is for (including trade schools people think of as "college" such as medical school, vet school, law school, etc.).

The purpose of a University is... to become educated and further educable. This is why a university degree has a focus, but still has general requirements. It's also why a college degree isn't necessarily used directly, but is still desirable to employers.

nereo

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 02:33:42 PM »

Of course employers will favor those with degrees.  However, if you can't get student loans to pay for your degree that has no prospect of employment (I think 27% of people use their degrees) then there will be far, far less people getting clinical psychology, which makes up 6.2% of all graduates and has a median income of $12,000 less than the median of 'any college degree' - meaning it is the degree you are most likely to use to work in a field that shouldn't require one.

If there were no college graduates applying for the 17.50/hr insurance call center job (just an example) because there were very few students getting degrees with no clear and practical path, then the job would by nature have to either go to a non-college graduate or remain open.  Less graduates with no actual career path in their field = less graduates applying for anything they can get = more employability for non-graduates.
@MilesTeg gave a good synopsis of my counterargument.  I would add that a candidate with a clinical psychology degree applying for the $17.50/hr insurance call center job is indeed a better candidate than someone with just a high-school education all else being equal. There's the fault with your logic: employers benefit from hiring people with college degrees, and young workers gain an advantage by having such a degree.  Presently and despite the high cost of a university education in the US it is still wildly more favorable to get a degree than not. Until both of those things change we'll remain in this world where the 'free market' favors college for most.

These low-level, low-education jobs you speak of are also not numerous enough to discourage the majority of students to go on to college.  This becomes even more acute when you consider a person's entire job path, not just the first job they get. Where does that person go who has a $17.50/hr job at a call center? If they apply for upper-management posiitons they are going to compete with people who have advanced degrees, and where in tis case having taken college-level courses in things like accounting or economics or computer programing are preferred, if not required. In other words, not having an advanced degree quickly limits job mobility.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 03:13:08 PM »
I'll preface this with: I don't normally wear a tinfoil hat, but sometimes these things are fun to think about.

In 2016 the federal gov owned about 1 trillion of student loan debt (I'm guessing it's gone up).  Making it the largest asset of the federal government.  It's also not solvent in bankruptcy.  Is it possible the government created a way to generate a steady income and indenture it's working class citizens?


partdopy

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 03:18:37 PM »
@MilesTeg gave a good synopsis of my counterargument.  I would add that a candidate with a clinical psychology degree applying for the $17.50/hr insurance call center job is indeed a better candidate than someone with just a high-school education all else being equal. There's the fault with your logic: employers benefit from hiring people with college degrees, and young workers gain an advantage by having such a degree.  Presently and despite the high cost of a university education in the US it is still wildly more favorable to get a degree than not. Until both of those things change we'll remain in this world where the 'free market' favors college for most.

These low-level, low-education jobs you speak of are also not numerous enough to discourage the majority of students to go on to college.  This becomes even more acute when you consider a person's entire job path, not just the first job they get. Where does that person go who has a $17.50/hr job at a call center? If they apply for upper-management posiitons they are going to compete with people who have advanced degrees, and where in tis case having taken college-level courses in things like accounting or economics or computer programing are preferred, if not required. In other words, not having an advanced degree quickly limits job mobility.

Sure, not having a degree will limit mobility.  That isn't the discussion.  The discussion is why college is so expensive.

I think a main reason is that you can go to school, 100% on loans, for a degree with no career path.  Since this is a thing (a common thing, I might add), there is now a huge surplus of people with degrees competing for jobs that traditionally didn't have them.  Not to mention, many people who have degrees today seem to have not actually learned creativity, problem solving, and communication skills applicable to the real world- which are the actual points of college, the point is not to learn math formulas or memorize styles of art.

If there was real, tangible risk to lenders making these loans, they simply wouldn't happen.  I know people will argue that student loan forgiveness programs are a risk, but I'm pretty sure that is just the government covering your loan balance, I may be wrong so point it out if so.  But there is definitely not the same level of risk involved in a car loan or mortgage.  If student loans were as hard to get as a mortgage, we definitely wouldn't have a huge overflow of graduates.

Less easy money = less students = less graduates & lower demand = less expensive classes and more jobs for non graduates.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »

Of course employers will favor those with degrees.  However, if you can't get student loans to pay for your degree that has no prospect of employment (I think 27% of people use their degrees) then there will be far, far less people getting clinical psychology, which makes up 6.2% of all graduates and has a median income of $12,000 less than the median of 'any college degree' - meaning it is the degree you are most likely to use to work in a field that shouldn't require one.


And yet every second advice post on reddit is "have you considered therapy?" You'd think psychologists would have an endless stream of new customers...

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 04:00:03 PM »
@MilesTeg gave a good synopsis of my counterargument.  I would add that a candidate with a clinical psychology degree applying for the $17.50/hr insurance call center job is indeed a better candidate than someone with just a high-school education all else being equal. There's the fault with your logic: employers benefit from hiring people with college degrees, and young workers gain an advantage by having such a degree.  Presently and despite the high cost of a university education in the US it is still wildly more favorable to get a degree than not. Until both of those things change we'll remain in this world where the 'free market' favors college for most.

These low-level, low-education jobs you speak of are also not numerous enough to discourage the majority of students to go on to college.  This becomes even more acute when you consider a person's entire job path, not just the first job they get. Where does that person go who has a $17.50/hr job at a call center? If they apply for upper-management posiitons they are going to compete with people who have advanced degrees, and where in tis case having taken college-level courses in things like accounting or economics or computer programing are preferred, if not required. In other words, not having an advanced degree quickly limits job mobility.

Sure, not having a degree will limit mobility.  That isn't the discussion.  The discussion is why college is so expensive.

I think a main reason is that you can go to school, 100% on loans, for a degree with no career path.  Since this is a thing (a common thing, I might add), there is now a huge surplus of people with degrees competing for jobs that traditionally didn't have them.  Not to mention, many people who have degrees today seem to have not actually learned creativity, problem solving, and communication skills applicable to the real world- which are the actual points of college, the point is not to learn math formulas or memorize styles of art.

If there was real, tangible risk to lenders making these loans, they simply wouldn't happen.  I know people will argue that student loan forgiveness programs are a risk, but I'm pretty sure that is just the government covering your loan balance, I may be wrong so point it out if so.  But there is definitely not the same level of risk involved in a car loan or mortgage.  If student loans were as hard to get as a mortgage, we definitely wouldn't have a huge overflow of graduates.

Less easy money = less students = less graduates & lower demand = less expensive classes and more jobs for non graduates.

What have been objecting to here is your continued insistence that i) college degrees should be de-emphasized because they are unnecessary, ii) student loans have exacerbated the cost of higher-education and iii) by allowing students to more easily discharge their loans, higher-education costs would go down.

You will notice that I have agreed with ii; the increasing dependence on tuition (and by extension student loans) by universities has caused student costs to go way up.
But your arguments about reducing the need for a college degree (i) and about allowing more loans to be discharged through bankruptcy are flawed.  The former is flawed because the very market forces you are evoking continue to push students to go to college and employeers to prefer them.  Limiting student loans would just exacerbate our economic inequality - those in the middle class and above would continue to go to college while poor people would lose that opportunity.
Ironically, allowing student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy would also do the exact opposite of what you propose, as lenders would only give loans to those that had sizable assets and had less of a need for them.  As it is, the FAFSA system is already designed to counteract this and favor students from families who make less money.

Finally, you've ended your argument with a curious claim that there's an overflow of graduates. All recent economic data refutes this idea - what we have is a  general shortage of skilled, educated workers.  Employers want more training, not less.

mm1970

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 06:01:40 PM »

Of course employers will favor those with degrees.  However, if you can't get student loans to pay for your degree that has no prospect of employment (I think 27% of people use their degrees) then there will be far, far less people getting clinical psychology, which makes up 6.2% of all graduates and has a median income of $12,000 less than the median of 'any college degree' - meaning it is the degree you are most likely to use to work in a field that shouldn't require one.


And yet every second advice post on reddit is "have you considered therapy?" You'd think psychologists would have an endless stream of new customers...
They might, if it were covered by insurance regularly.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 06:54:45 PM »
Cost, Price, and Value. Understanding these is key to understanding any product.

The article has a promising start with a discussion of Cost - the real total cost including government subsidies, tuition, and so on. But soon thereafter it conflates Cost and Price and then disintegrates to the point where it's not clear if it's comparing true cost or price to students or whatever.

By the time we get to the end of the article and the discussion on Value, it's not clear if this is value to the student or value to society. It's quite possible that, after subsidies, a student has positive ROI while society as a whole has a negative ROI. Not claiming this is the case, just that it's not clear. Most likely it's Value from the POV of the student, such that a student gets more return from a degree than what they paid into it.

While it's true that "Americans with college degrees earn 75 percent more than those who only completed high school" - there's a lot of important detail hiding in this aggregate statistic. Many schools have negative ROI (literally, would be better off financially if you didn't attend), and then there is wide variation between different majors.

The Payscale college ROI ranking is a good source for information. The general ROI ranking is useful, but even more so are the rankings broken down by major. For example, best ROI for Computer Science is fascinating. Some of the fancy brand name universities are at the top, but there are plenty of lesser known colleges that are very competitive such as UCSD at No. 8. Even lowely SJSU is up there at 27 and UCSC (Go Slugs!) is at 36. Comparing across majors, even middling ranked schools in CS have a 20 year ROI that far exceeds the top of the rankings in majors such as Philosophy and Religious Studies.

swampwiz

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 07:06:16 PM »
Finally, you've ended your argument with a curious claim that there's an overflow of graduates. All recent economic data refutes this idea - what we have is a  general shortage of skilled, educated workers.  Employers want more training, not less.

No.  If there were a shortage of college-educated workers, there wouldn't be so many college graduates working as barristas, etc.  What employers seem to always bellyache about is that they want folks with "critical thinking" skills.  Well, anyone with a high enough GPA from a rigorous enough university is going to have those skills.

What is really going on here is that these employers are just throwing up a smokescreen so they can get more foreign workers.

MMMarbleheader

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 07:24:09 PM »
To me the big problem are these small, crappy liberal arts colleges that have sold snake oil to parents and their kids who pay for them. They openly mock the large class sizes (large alumni bases) of state schools while offering a "better college experience" and triple the price. They were junior colleges for women that jumped on the tuition bandwagon in the 1970s and never looked back. They give middle class parents the feeling of prestige of sending (but not paying) for a private school. But they end up with a useless degree  from a school that no one ever heard of.

There will always be Harvards and the second place schools like BC and NYU were Rich parents pay full to get a somewhat prestigious degree and then state schools or niche private technical/coop schools. And the flagship or local state college for everyone else.

But these crappy small colleges really need to ramp up going bankrupt to have us from ourselves. Luckily in Massachusetts these schools are already failing. Wheelock merged with BU (big win for those kids), Mount Ida went out of business (bought by UMASS) and a few more seem to be on deaths door.


EnjoyIt

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 08:29:09 PM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I agree mostly.   Loans are easily accessible.   Financial institutions (including our government) LOVE to increase your debt!!  That's how they make money.
I would not say that grants are easily accessible. 

Colleges and Universities assume that federal loans are automatic and also private loans.  This gets factored in as they increase tuition/fees.

Cost is going up because kids get a practically unlimited amount of loans backed by the US government. It almost seams like free money until you graduate and have to start paying it off. 

I just met a couple who graduated with $1 million in student loans.  seriously $1 million, I am not exaggerating.  Luckily they have a decent income.  They make a pretty good income together but even still that is a huge amount of debt even for their wages.

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 08:40:22 PM »
I'll preface this with: I don't normally wear a tinfoil hat, but sometimes these things are fun to think about.

In 2016 the federal gov owned about 1 trillion of student loan debt (I'm guessing it's gone up).  Making it the largest asset of the federal government.  It's also not solvent in bankruptcy.  Is it possible the government created a way to generate a steady income and indenture it's working class citizens?

1. Make student loans available to anyone, regardless of credit, income, or potential income.
2. Let people take as large of loans as they would like.
3. Spread the loan term out over 10, 20, 30 or more years to make sure the payments are nice and low
4. Make payment terms flexible to easily extend the terms of the loan
5. Make sure the loans are not discharged in bankruptcy
6. Indoctrinate the youth into believing they have to take these loans in order to succeed
7. Let the cost of higher education grow exponentially
8. How bout an FHA at 3% down ?
9. Make health insurance mandatory while also allowing costs to grow exponentially
10. Just for the hell of it we will tax another 15-25% on top of that
11. Lets also make sure pensions are underfunded, 401k's are laden with high fees, and social security goes bankrupt

Now that a person will be spending 45%-75% of income on loans, rent, and taxes for 40-50 years. What else can we do?

12. 0-down loans on new cars!
13. 0-down loans on $10000 mattresses!
14. 0-down $1100 iPhones that need to be replaced yearly!
15. Credit cards for everyone! only 15-25% interest!

That should keep them busy until death.
Give them plenty of TV and an election once in a while and they probably won't even try to stop us.

Side note -

I think about this sometimes with owning rentals.
If I own a 4-plex and my tenants each pay about 25% of their income on rent, do I, in a way, "own" one whole person?
I think of buying a 4-plex as purchasing the human capital of one entire person.

For 1 Trillion in student loans, 35k/loan and roughly 10% of income on each payment, that should equate to about 3 million people's worth of human capital purchased.

1. Borrow 1 Trillion from Fed
2. Buy 1 Trillion in student loans
3. Pay back Fed
4. Enslave 3 million people
5. College for everyone!!

exterous

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 08:52:16 PM »
Why is College in America So Expensive? You cannot hope to answer this in a single article - even a series would be problematic because there are contributing and mitigating factors across the board. Causes of and resolutions for the issues will vary depending on whether its an online school vs small liberal arts school vs large public university vs large public research university and even the geographical location.

For example lets take a look at the suggestions for lowering the amount of available student loans. This is oddly coincidental because I just had a 4 hours budget meeting today at one of the Universities I do work for that covered their 10 year predictions for their multibillion dollar budget. One of the items discussed were potential inflection points for out of state students who get financial aid, out of state students who pay full ride (ie wealthy) and foreign students. While not a key takeaway from the meeting the data provided showed that the University would be able to continue growing its expenditures and tuition cost by allowing additional out of state students who pay full ride and foreign students. Reducing student loan availability would not affect this well known institution if they were willing to increase the share of those students to 50% or higher (depending on how far out you want to go on the projections). Would they move the school into the realm for the privileged or extremely lucky? Not immediately, but looking at their enrollment they have steadily increased the share of privileged students since 2006 or so.

But the affects of that change would not be the same elsewhere. Sites like Educause and Chronicle already talk about the struggles of smaller Universities who are closing programs and scaling back to deal with dwindling demand. Reductions in available aid would almost certainly mean drastic cuts throwing those organizations into jeopardy. Maybe we are a little flush with institutions but if we reduce the educational options without reducing the degree requirements for jobs (or scaling up enrollment at surviving 'affordable' schools) there are going to be a whole heck of a lot of people left without degrees in an economy that hasn't caught up with the reduction in degreed applicants. This isn't to say some limits wouldn't be a good idea but that a heavier handed action may not get the desired results

Admin expenditures are likewise tricky. While some institutions run leaner than others (meaning some could certainly trim the fat) there are growing complexities schools need to deal with. Title IX is tricky. Guidance from the federal government on GLBA data for schools is lacking. Lawsuits are more common. So the compliance costs go up as more lawyers, HR, IT and DEI staff are brought onboard. Looking to cut the staff:faculty ratio will impact schools differently and may not be as appropriate for a research school.


Cost at research institutions are further exacerbated as IT demands increase both in terms of personnel and infrastructure (that is often difficult to retrofit into 100+ year old buildings). Higher building costs to power and cool HPC, to support the army of growth chambers, fMRI equipment and microscopes. Ballooning storage costs to house petabyte upon petabyte of research data in an era where grant writing and acceptance hasn't caught up to the implications of retaining\working with that data for 7-10 years.

Of course many schools have their own rolls to play in this problem. Many are just poorly run in financial terms with an overly prevalent feeling that money should never over ride educational value - even if the superposed educational value is questionable. While its true to an extent I have often seen it taken too far and results in a culture resistant to any financial constraints. I like to say these schools "need a few adults" to run them. Even some of the more financially reasonable schools are not overly constrained (assuming there is not a financial impediment. It seems like most only really cut back when absolutely forced). Whiteboard paint is put everywhere. 10G network run just on request not a demonstrated need (Which tends to be expensive as you need a local card, jack, switch and often a DL or two). Sit\stand desks for everyone. Overly frequent staff computer upgrades. I could spend a very long time on this list but you get the idea. Sometimes there are good reasons like the attempt to be on the pedagogical edge or the need to be able to try a few things and fail before finding what works. But its a tough balancing act and schools tend to err on the side of 'spend money' as opposed to limiting explorational freedom

All of this rambling is basically to hopefully help illustrate that there are a lot of causes to the issue, including many that were not covered like state funding. My fear is that one particular facet will be held up as the cause and "Action Was Taken to Fix the Issue" when in reality it fixed the issue for some schools, did nothing for others and decimated still others from ill-considered side effects. Ideally this would be a multi-pronged approach of more measured steps taken with the understanding that:
-Some steps may not affect certain schools but that doesn't mean its a failure
-It may take time to see the cumulative effects

Not that I would hold my breath that that will happen...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 09:04:14 PM by exterous »

AccidentalMiser

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 09:01:37 PM »
One theory is that loans and grants for college are made so easily accessible,
thus, lots of money available drives the price up.

I tend to think this is likely the problem. The debt is too easy to take out which in turn drives the cost up.

I think things like administrators and constantly updated construction are symptoms of the problem. The institutions have to do something with the money and there's only so much demand for additional classes (professors).

I completely agree with your elegant analysis.

Malloy

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 09:12:44 PM »
Demand is very inelastic at a big chunk of US schools, and their slots could be filled by the children of rich foreigners.  Those kids are extremely attractive students to schools, because they pay tuition plus and are not eligible for any aid.  The value of a US degree is high globally, which puts more price pressure on the population of US students who are competing with a global pool of applicants.  One reason tuition has gone up is to fully capture the total dollar amount that rich families, domestic and foreign, are willing to pay to walk in the door.  They are currently willing to pay 30-40k at many schools, and I imagine that Harvard could fill its classes even at a tuition of 100k+. Frankly, Harvard is a bargain given what they could get away with charging.

EnjoyIt

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 11:03:39 PM »
Why is College in America So Expensive? You cannot hope to answer this in a single article - even a series would be problematic because there are contributing and mitigating factors across the board. Causes of and resolutions for the issues will vary depending on whether its an online school vs small liberal arts school vs large public university vs large public research university and even the geographical location.

For example lets take a look at the suggestions for lowering the amount of available student loans. This is oddly coincidental because I just had a 4 hours budget meeting today at one of the Universities I do work for that covered their 10 year predictions for their multibillion dollar budget. One of the items discussed were potential inflection points for out of state students who get financial aid, out of state students who pay full ride (ie wealthy) and foreign students. While not a key takeaway from the meeting the data provided showed that the University would be able to continue growing its expenditures and tuition cost by allowing additional out of state students who pay full ride and foreign students. Reducing student loan availability would not affect this well known institution if they were willing to increase the share of those students to 50% or higher (depending on how far out you want to go on the projections). Would they move the school into the realm for the privileged or extremely lucky? Not immediately, but looking at their enrollment they have steadily increased the share of privileged students since 2006 or so.

But the affects of that change would not be the same elsewhere. Sites like Educause and Chronicle already talk about the struggles of smaller Universities who are closing programs and scaling back to deal with dwindling demand. Reductions in available aid would almost certainly mean drastic cuts throwing those organizations into jeopardy. Maybe we are a little flush with institutions but if we reduce the educational options without reducing the degree requirements for jobs (or scaling up enrollment at surviving 'affordable' schools) there are going to be a whole heck of a lot of people left without degrees in an economy that hasn't caught up with the reduction in degreed applicants. This isn't to say some limits wouldn't be a good idea but that a heavier handed action may not get the desired results

Admin expenditures are likewise tricky. While some institutions run leaner than others (meaning some could certainly trim the fat) there are growing complexities schools need to deal with. Title IX is tricky. Guidance from the federal government on GLBA data for schools is lacking. Lawsuits are more common. So the compliance costs go up as more lawyers, HR, IT and DEI staff are brought onboard. Looking to cut the staff:faculty ratio will impact schools differently and may not be as appropriate for a research school.


Cost at research institutions are further exacerbated as IT demands increase both in terms of personnel and infrastructure (that is often difficult to retrofit into 100+ year old buildings). Higher building costs to power and cool HPC, to support the army of growth chambers, fMRI equipment and microscopes. Ballooning storage costs to house petabyte upon petabyte of research data in an era where grant writing and acceptance hasn't caught up to the implications of retaining\working with that data for 7-10 years.

Of course many schools have their own rolls to play in this problem. Many are just poorly run in financial terms with an overly prevalent feeling that money should never over ride educational value - even if the superposed educational value is questionable. While its true to an extent I have often seen it taken too far and results in a culture resistant to any financial constraints. I like to say these schools "need a few adults" to run them. Even some of the more financially reasonable schools are not overly constrained (assuming there is not a financial impediment. It seems like most only really cut back when absolutely forced). Whiteboard paint is put everywhere. 10G network run just on request not a demonstrated need (Which tends to be expensive as you need a local card, jack, switch and often a DL or two). Sit\stand desks for everyone. Overly frequent staff computer upgrades. I could spend a very long time on this list but you get the idea. Sometimes there are good reasons like the attempt to be on the pedagogical edge or the need to be able to try a few things and fail before finding what works. But its a tough balancing act and schools tend to err on the side of 'spend money' as opposed to limiting explorational freedom

All of this rambling is basically to hopefully help illustrate that there are a lot of causes to the issue, including many that were not covered like state funding. My fear is that one particular facet will be held up as the cause and "Action Was Taken to Fix the Issue" when in reality it fixed the issue for some schools, did nothing for others and decimated still others from ill-considered side effects. Ideally this would be a multi-pronged approach of more measured steps taken with the understanding that:
-Some steps may not affect certain schools but that doesn't mean its a failure
-It may take time to see the cumulative effects

Not that I would hold my breath that that will happen...

@exterous
Thank you for taking the time to share all those thoughts.  May I ask you a few questions since you appear to be entrenched in the business:

1) Do you think there will be a continued growth of online degrees and if so how do you think it will affect brick and mortar institutions?

2) Schools have been outpacing inflation for decades. Other than some IT equipment the process of educating people has been the same since we had schools. Why was education so much less expensive 15 years ago as compared to now? 

3) In your opinion, do you think there is a ceiling in how expensive education will be and how far off are we?

exterous

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 05:21:59 PM »
@exterous
Thank you for taking the time to share all those thoughts.  May I ask you a few questions since you appear to be entrenched in the business:

1) Do you think there will be a continued growth of online degrees and if so how do you think it will affect brick and mortar institutions?

2) Schools have been outpacing inflation for decades. Other than some IT equipment the process of educating people has been the same since we had schools. Why was education so much less expensive 15 years ago as compared to now? 

3) In your opinion, do you think there is a ceiling in how expensive education will be and how far off are we?

Certainly!
1) I do think there will be continued growth but the effects will vary by degree as online degrees benefit even brick and mortar institutions. Lets take social work as an example. A required component of social work is field work so schools must place applicants in organizations before they can graduate. This imposes a very real geographical and capacity constraint on the school. No matter how good the school there are only so many local placement options to go around. By expanding a brick and mortar only program to include online education you are no longer restricted to what your local geographical area can absorb. The twist of this is that you will need to increase your admin staff as you need more people to coordinate and run placement in disparate locations.

I think we're likely to see hybridized scenarios where long standing institutions offer online options along side their physical environments. There are also people who do far better in a structured physical environment free of the distractions of a room or coffee house when learning. There have been some interesting attempts to address this with renting office space in other cities and tying in remote lectures or providing 'hoteling' space where a student can use a rented cubical or office for a set period of time designed to listen to a recorded class\do classwork. (Basically you walk into one of those 'rent an office for a hour\day\week places - show your ID and get to use a space for a set amount of time.)

I think schools, whether they are high schools, online colleges or I guess we'll call them physical colleges, are still trying to figure out the best way to offer online education

2) This is a tough one to answer as it varies by school but I will try and hit some of the points I think stretch more broadly across institutions:
Benefits: Universities have not cut back on benefits nearly as much as the corporate world. Many still offer pensions and, for the ones that don't, high defined contribution matches like 2:1 (University puts in 10%, employee puts in 5%). Other causes: no high deductible plans, free dental or vision, more PTO, sabbaticals, included long term disability with many of these offered for retirees\emeritus staff. Professors and high level admins often still do work for schools in retirement or have a level of prestige associated with them so taking care of employees after they leave is common.
 
Building costs: This one can be huge. College towns are typically heavily developed within close distances to campus (ie walking distance) so land acquisition is expensive. An alternative is to build vertically if there is space available but that is more expensive than the more traditional 3-5 floor buildings that were built on campus for a long time. Densification like this also puts a strain on utility services like sewage and electricity along with drainage, parking and public transit. Retro fitting buildings is a huge expense as well as these 80-150 year old buildings weren't designed with today's electrical, data, HVAC etc in mind. Code compliance is a huge issue too. 100+ year old buildings aren't great examples of ADA compliant structures and carving out the space needed for elevators, ramps, widening hallways etc is expensive. Older construction styles tended towards dispersed column support  as opposed to core support (So lots of large columns running through the building for support instead of fewer huge columns clustered in the center) which complicates remodels. Keep in mind these aren't stud and drywall construction but plaster and concrete or stone so this is not a small task. Sometimes the legislature makes this even more complicated. Roughly 11 years ago the state of MI lowered the classification to be a skyscraper by a few feet (10'?). The result was that Universities in MI suddenly found themselves with double digits of buildings that now had an entire new set of codes they were not in compliance with.

Salary\Compensation: For certain groups of professors there is a slow spiraling up of salary or compensation offers as schools try and outbid for talent

Decreased state\local support: In may areas state financial support has dropped by quite a bit. Very YMMV though

Fear: Universities have gone through some financial shocks in recent memory. Depending on how quickly they learned from the investment shocks of .com bubble and the Great Recession they may have gone from spending everything that comes in to rolling 5 or even 7-10 year averages. I've seen several budgets showing history from 2001 or 2006 that showed the schools had basically zero reserves to deal with crises so they've used increasing tuition costs to help build the clearly needed reserves. As the landscape becomes a bit more hostile towards the cost of education schools are building up more reserves in case state and local funding falls even further. However we're reaching a pendulum swing point (IMO) where too much is being built up but inertia keeps it going. For some schools its even a source of pride. "Look how big our endowment is!" (Pay no attention to the 4.5% increase in tuition this year)

Mismanagement\lack of caring may also be another area but I am typically not involved enough to get much of a sense of how widespread this is. But I have seen a lot of units that don't really know where their money is going or think its being recharged but is actually not. Or departments sharing accounting codes so its incredible difficult to tell who is spending what money without investing a lot of time into it. I do get the impression that talking about budgets is an undesirable conversation to have

I would also circle back to the cost of compliance (Federal, state and internal) being a growing cost that is not just related to IT. To be honest I am not sure how much of one but its not negligible and takes a larger toll on smaller schools compared to larger schools. Think of all the types of compliance data they have to deal with: FERPA, HIPPA, PCI, GLBA, ITAR, CUI, FISMA, PII, SIHSR. Just HIPPA data takes a lot of compliance work but because many schools offer loans they must also comply with Financial Institution requirements in GLBA.

Edit: I found a study on the cost of compliance:

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The study, which was conducted by the Boston Consulting Group, indicates regulatory compliance represents 3 to 11 percent of higher education institutions’ nonhospital operating expenses, and that faculty and staff spend 4 to 15 percent of their time complying with federal regulations.

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The study estimated that higher education institutions report to approximately 18 different federal agencies and comply with approximately 30 different areas of regulations and more than 200 federal laws and guidelines.

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2015/10/19/regulatory-compliance/

3) I think its likely we'll reach a ceiling. However I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of politicians promoting 'free' college for people and (if a plan actually exists) they usually have little enforceable restrictions in place for limiting cost growth. This seems extremely misguided and would just serve to mask the issue which would mean reaching a ceiling would likely be quite a bit farther out.

Absent that I do think we are getting close to a limit. We are already seeing institutions having difficulties sustaining themselves due to lower enrollment. Universities are aware of the problem and that it is growing. Their attention has been slow in coming and action is likewise slow but there is a growing trend of trying to limit increases. 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 tuition increases averaged 1.9% for private schools and 1.3% for public 4 year schools
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/25/tuition-and-fees-still-rising-faster-aid-college-board-report-shows

As an aside that I thought was quite interesting (and somewhat ties into 'increased admin costs') was the extent to which some school have to spend time managing donations. I learned today that a University with 18,000 enrolled students has over 10,000 gift accounts. (Basically accounts where people gave money to the school to be used for specific purposes). These accounts must be managed, tracked and invested and could have very narrow scopes of uses. If the designated goal is no longer relevant the school has to track down the heirs to get it modified - which can take years especially if no heirs can be located. It may no longer be relevant because the degree no longer exists or is offered at that school, the intended use is no longer relevant or there were no students to use it on (ie "Money is to be spent on someone from this geographical region." Well if no one from there applies then nothing can be done for that year.)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 06:17:25 PM by exterous »

EnjoyIt

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 07:38:47 PM »
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You clearly are passionate on the subject.

AccidentalMiser

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 08:10:53 PM »
Yes, thank you, @exterous for both knowing and sharing your knowledge.

LWYRUP

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2018, 06:36:59 AM »
Small anecdote.  For many years Rice University in Texas had lower tuition than many other top schools -- about $10k less.  In the early 2000s they RAISED tuition up to "market" levels and found applications INCREASED and their selectivity INCREASED.  Apparently people thought that tuition going up was a sign that the university was becoming more "prestigious" an in demand.

Tuition at the elite levels is a result of rising income inequality.  A lot of people have a lot of $$$ and it is an arms race.  Tuition at the non-elite levels is keeping up with the Joneses (both the schools and the parents) + ability of debt + bad financial decisionmaking all around.

FINate

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2018, 10:09:55 AM »
The kerfuffle over the CEO of CalPERS not having a college degree is symptomatic of the larger problem of credentialism driving up costs. Nevermind that fact that she has 30+ years of real world experience in public pensions, she doesn't have a degree!!!!!!

From https://www.mercedsunstar.com/news/state/california/article218274435.html

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“We are surprised. You just assume in today’s market if you’re going to be CEO of the nation’s largest retirement system that you’d have some kind of degree,” said Tim Behrens, president of California State Retirees. He added, “I don’t think anything happened badly because of her lack of a degree.”

Yes, there are some concerns about how she was presented to the public, but that's mostly on the board, and the pressure to show her as pursuing a degree is telling. Really, what's the point of her getting a piece of paper this late in her career?

exterous

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2018, 12:59:12 PM »
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You clearly are passionate on the subject.

Yes, thank you, @exterous for both knowing and sharing your knowledge.

You're welcome

Fishindude

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2018, 02:35:32 PM »
In defense of the universities, the facilities today are about ten times nicer than they were 40 years ago.   Those facilities and the cost and personnel to keep them up are not cheap.
Dorm rooms in the 70's were a small concrete block room shared by two individuals with only room enough for beds and a couple small desks, and everyone on the floor shared a community restroom.   Student housing at some universities now is probably nicer than what some students will ever live in at any other time of their life.

EnjoyIt

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2018, 03:46:41 PM »
In defense of the universities, the facilities today are about ten times nicer than they were 40 years ago.   Those facilities and the cost and personnel to keep them up are not cheap.
Dorm rooms in the 70's were a small concrete block room shared by two individuals with only room enough for beds and a couple small desks, and everyone on the floor shared a community restroom.   Student housing at some universities now is probably nicer than what some students will ever live in at any other time of their life.

Student housing is not part of the cost of tuition we just discussed. Yes, it is an additional expense, but just looking at tuition costs do not take housing into account.

somebody8198

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2018, 03:55:04 PM »
This is one of those controversial subjects that sets off arguments at Thanksgiving dinner.

It's likely a combination of factors. College is expensive because everyone wants a college degree. Why? Because we began promoting college degrees as the solution to eroding employment prospects in working class professions like construction and manufacturing. Cheap loans were made more available to increase enrollments, which over time led to administrative bloat at universities, which led to higher tuition, which led to affordability problems, which were fixed by making loans even more available... and on and on.


OtherJen

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2018, 04:31:01 PM »
In defense of the universities, the facilities today are about ten times nicer than they were 40 years ago.   Those facilities and the cost and personnel to keep them up are not cheap.
Dorm rooms in the 70's were a small concrete block room shared by two individuals with only room enough for beds and a couple small desks, and everyone on the floor shared a community restroom.   Student housing at some universities now is probably nicer than what some students will ever live in at any other time of their life.

Student housing is not part of the cost of tuition we just discussed. Yes, it is an additional expense, but just looking at tuition costs do not take housing into account.

Yes, but the inflated tuition costs are probably used to finance the construction of those fancy dorms. They're certainly helping to finance the new state-of-the-art academic and research buildings and the admin required to keep those buildings running. My grad alma mater has opened three enormous new biomedical/biological research buildings, a huge new business school, new sports facilities, a new hospital, and a couple of fancy new dorms in the 12 years since I entered the program (I'm betting there's also a fancy new building on the engineering campus). Tuition costs keep increasing faster than inflation.

effigy98

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2018, 04:36:49 PM »
I'll preface this with: I don't normally wear a tinfoil hat, but sometimes these things are fun to think about.

In 2016 the federal gov owned about 1 trillion of student loan debt (I'm guessing it's gone up).  Making it the largest asset of the federal government.  It's also not solvent in bankruptcy.  Is it possible the government created a way to generate a steady income and indenture it's working class citizens?

Yes I think this is part of it... Happiness in slavery.

effigy98

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2018, 04:53:05 PM »
Finally, you've ended your argument with a curious claim that there's an overflow of graduates. All recent economic data refutes this idea - what we have is a  general shortage of skilled, educated workers.  Employers want more training, not less.

Ya more of the fit my company perfectly training, college information is usually out dated in this fast pace information world and rout memorization is a waste of time in the day and age of google. Colleges are not teaching the right skills. The biggest complaint I hear from managers who have a recent grad is problem solving and social skills are lacking. Of course, if you give them some crap to memorize and test them on it, they will do amazing (not a useful skill in the real world).

Hardly anyone is qualified for the 1000s of positions companies posts. Must know 5 years of programming language that has been available for 2, must have worked with multi billion dollar database technology x, must be a full web developer, IOS, Android, Alexa, etc and able to work on old platform code form the 90's, blah blah blah, and has durable knee pads for 1 on 1's with management. College does not prep you for the vast majority of these jobs...

With companies having such unique skill requirements, I am very annoyed that most employers are too lazy and/or cheap to train people on the job. Nearly every job I have had can be learned on the job if the person has enough grit.

My industry is so messed up that going to a website (https://www.interviewbit.com) and practicing the interview questions for months is the BEST way to get your foot in the door (which is all free, no college required). You will probably use about 1% of that knowledge on the job, but then you need to fake it to keep the job till you learn all those skills college does not teach. None of this requires college and it is true the degree is only useful for getting thru lazy non technical recruiters that filter by degrees. I have interviewed 100s of college candidates that cannot do the most basic interview questions to the point I no longer even look at the resume, I just screen them with real world problems and see if they can keep up, and that tells me a lot more. If you are willing to go door to door and put yourself out there with meetups, groups, networking, contracting, you can get a interview without a degree if you can demonstrate the skills they interview on. I personally prefer to hire self taunt over degree holders as they seem to be able to learn faster, adapt, finish projects, don't give up, and complain less.

I have observed however, that college hires with MASSIVE debt will work 100 hours a week for you and have massive fear of getting fired and will pretty much be your slave. I have seen asshole bosses take advantage of this and sing praises of college hires. I agree this is one huge advantage to indentured servants, but it is no way to treat people.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:06:48 PM by effigy98 »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2018, 07:48:16 PM »
Generation X and the Early Millennials were pretty much screwed because they were taught by Boomers that college was the secret to a financially successful future and that information was outdated and obsolete for the most part. Personally, I benefitted from college because it allowed me to get a professional certificate that gives me much more income than I would have gotten up on Hillbilly Mountain, but at the cost of $74,000 out of my pocket. In the early 21st century, the internet has developed to the point where we now have instantaneous access to all the knowledge in the modern world as well as human history at nearly no cost. Generation Z kids are going to have it really easy if they can peel themselves away from posting memes on 4chan and playing Fortnite.

nereo

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 07:20:45 AM »
Generation X and the Early Millennials were pretty much screwed because they were taught by Boomers that college was the secret to a financially successful future and that information was outdated and obsolete for the most part. Personally, I benefitted from college because it allowed me to get a professional certificate that gives me much more income than I would have gotten up on Hillbilly Mountain, but at the cost of $74,000 out of my pocket. In the early 21st century, the internet has developed to the point where we now have instantaneous access to all the knowledge in the modern world as well as human history at nearly no cost. Generation Z kids are going to have it really easy if they can peel themselves away from posting memes on 4chan and playing Fortnite.

I disagree with you assessment of it being outdated and obsolete.  People with college degrees continue to out-earn those with Only a highschool degree, they have lower rates of unemployment and shorter periods of unemployment.  Even with the increased cost, the lifetime earning potential is so much greater and the ROI vastly favors going to college or getting another professional degree (ie trade school).

The open availability of information doesn’t change that because employers aren’t looking for someone who can just google stuff - we are looking for people who can think and create and problem solve.  Automation and machine learning are making it harder on the least skilled workers, but it’s people who can find inefficiencies, diagnose a problem, program a new process or create a new widget that will continue to be in demand. These are skills that upperclassmen typically start to develop but are beyond most highschool educations.

familyandfarming

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Re: article: Why Is College in America So Expensive?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2018, 07:24:37 AM »
My family is getting ready to celebrate my mom's 90th birthday. Here's a statistic about her and my family some might find interesting. Every person in my family has a college degree! That's her, my dad, all 5 children, and all 13 grandchildren for a total of 20! (Great grandchildren are all too young.) All spouses also have college degrees. In addition, there are additional masters and PhDs in the mix.

But here are some additional statistics. My mom got her degree at 55, my dad through the GI Bill. All siblings went on scholarship and worked jobs while attending. The grandchildren all graduated with little to no debt. There was intentional saving and studying throughout our family tree!

My parents were products of the Great Depression. We took ourselves to college visit days. It sounds strange to say this in this day and age of overzealous parenting, but the only time they came to college for us was at our individual college graduations. They raised us to be very independent thinkers and adults. Though I did visit my children more often while they were at college than my parents did, I also believe in a non-helicopter/lawn mower approach to parenting, as do all of my siblings. Education was valued and planned from a very early age.

If there is intention, higher education is a good value. If not, there can be out-of-this-world debt and misery.