Author Topic: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty  (Read 40010 times)

Sailor Sam

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2018, 08:31:38 AM »
Recycling force!

That's a fantastic idea! I've seen the great pacific garbage patch, and it's heartbreaking. Imagine the good the 25 million 18-24 year olds in American could do.

dude

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2018, 08:34:23 AM »
I'd be more in favor of a voluntary service program, not a military draft.

The draft aspect is a pretty blunt instrument. Making war is a pretty harsh thing to require of people when more war is not needed, and other objectives are (better infrastructure, more housing for the poor, etc). I'm glad your military service was helpful to you, but I'd rather see benefits made available to people who build apartment blocks, learn computer skills and tax prep and financial planning to provide the poor with support, etc. The apartments and financial services could be made available to vets as well as the children of poor families.

ETA: Regardless of the program, thanks for proposing solutions. I've volunteered at homeless shelters and for years been friends with people who volunteer regularly. Not all poverty is the individual's fault.

@JanetJackson, awesome post upthread!

I could get on board with something like that as well, though I think there has to be compulsory aspect to it, and there has to be at least a para-military aspect as well (i.e., a crucible like basic training and a disciplinary code like the UCMJ). So maybe a uniformed civil defense force whose mission it is to serve the greater good in areas of greatest need. Perhaps even working on FEMA-type disasters or the like.

dude

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2018, 08:35:30 AM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.
I would rather this be a national volunteer force for something useful, rather than war, but the idea could be useful in a certain sense. I'm personally very opposed to countries waging war for indefinite periods against ill defined enemies in far off countries that result in thousand of innocent casualties and millions of refugees. If the force took recruits, taught them useful skills, and deployed them to provide aid or environmental help or something useful like that then it could be a positive idea.

SPACE FORCE!

HAHAHAHAHA!!  Well done, GuitarStv!  Thanks for the laugh!

BicycleB

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2018, 09:13:05 AM »
The solution to virtually all social problems is, say it with me lads:

Mandatory

Full

Employment

Hahaha! Mandatory employment?  Tough sell on an early retirement forum, Baby G...

Ducknald Don

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2018, 09:14:58 AM »
The solution to virtually all social problems is, say it with me lads:

Mandatory

Full

Employment

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

fuzzy math

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2018, 10:17:05 AM »
I’m intrigued about a reference to “cranking the hog”...


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GuitarStv

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2018, 10:38:36 AM »
What it actually means is that when people decide democratically what must be done, and how, and by whom, the alienation of labor from its products is removed.

If there are more blue people than green people, a vote is held, and it is democratically decided to make the green people do all the work . . . how is alienation of labor from it's products removed?

BicycleB

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2018, 10:51:37 AM »
Mandating work won't make it socially productive either.

The NYT article had a much simpler, cheaper, less controlling solution: revive and strengthen the anti-poverty programs USA already has. Nearly every one of them works. As in, when funded and applied as in the past, works by measurably improving outcomes. They were cut down and impeded by work requirements due to political decisions, they can be revived by political decisions.

I am sympathetic to people who suppose that poor people are poor because of their own bad decisions. I've known a poor person or two who indeed was poor because of their own bad decisions. One is intermittently homeless now, according to the grapevine. But the many people who need and merit assistance should not be cut off on account of the few bad apples.

mm1970

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2018, 10:56:54 AM »
Personally I'm not surprised a subject such as UBI has such high support in a "community" that wants to retire early.

If you guys get UBI now, you can retire even earlier. Notwithstanding large increases in inflation that it will bring.

But, the bottom % of society is not like the people on this board. Unless you are inserted into their culture you cannot fathom their lifestyles. Like I said before my buddy owned 13 low income housing units, the stories he told...it was incredible.

I fully support giving everyone support to get themselves out of poverty but you can only walk the horse to the river you can't make them drink. I can't even believe people are defending this poster child woman, she made mistake after mistake. Just think, had she stopped having kids after he first born where would she be now? How much would the taxpayers have saved? This is nuts to even be thinking about giving her MORE!

Sigh.

She made mistake after mistake when she was 16.  A child.  19.  Barely legal.  Her last "mistake" was 12 years ago.  Her father was a fucking crack addict.

Again. she should be punished for...how long?  I mean, even people who go to jail for stupid things aren't punished forever.

Unless you have bad enough luck to be put in jail for writing a bad check because you are poor, and then are ineligible for housing help and food stamps when you get out.  Ensuring that you...stay poor. 

mm1970

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2018, 11:05:54 AM »
Between the multiple mentions of her having children with two different men (as if that has ANY impact on poverty), and the multiple instances of “these people” being used (honestly! Who can write that and look themselves in the mirror), paired with the current Serena Williams thread, I just want to pack up and leave this forum.

Can we make volunteering at a homeless shelter or a women’s shelter a mandatory part of high school?

It *was* actually a mandatory part of my doctoral program, which was filled with ultra conservative rich kids, and it did wonders for them to meet people in real poverty, hear their stories, and learn to have compassion for people from wildly different circumstances rather than just seeing them as a “drain” or as products of their own poor behaviours.

It was amazing to see so many of them 180 in their attitudes and the incredible increase in their compassion and humanity. Not to mention the increased gratitude they had for their own privileged circumstances.

I grew up pretty damn poor, and volunteering at women’s shelters has made me INCREDIBLY grateful that all I had to deal with was financial poverty. My parents were educated and raised in upper middle class families, they just made some stupid mistakes at the wrong time that cost them everything and plunged us into poverty for many years. I worked hard and ended up a successful doctor.
I *could* have the attitude of “well I did it, so why can’t *these people*”

Except...
I’ve spent countless hours with poor people. I’ve heard their horrific and heart breaking stories. I’ve seen the conditions under which they are unable to thrive. I didn’t have a crack head father who beat and raped me, I had an intellectual father who taught me about philosophy and gardening. I didn’t have a prostitute mother who was constantly having to give money to a pimp, I had a mom who was a model who taught me the importance of posture and how to behave among the societal elite.

I pulled myself out of poverty and so did my parents. It took hard work, but we had absolutely no barriers in our way except for financial ones. My single mom with two kids from two different men (GASP!!!) managed to become wildly successful in her late 30s with no education. She and the woman in the article are not the same. My mom had every advantage in life, her period of poverty was a temporary departure from her otherwise consistently privileged and wealthy life. It was not her reality, it was a detour.

My growing up poor taught me valuable skills like how to bulk cook rice and beans, how to maximize my use of the library, and how to optimize a tiny living space. Meanwhile I was being equipped with the skills and knowledge of the upper middle class so that I could seamlessly coast right in. Was it rough? Yes. Do I deeply relate to the brilliant post above about poverty? Absolutely. Do I still have trauma from poverty? You bet.

However, volunteering with poor people taught me just how incredibly privileged I was and how I didn’t even need to be raised with money to benefit from coming from an upper middle class background. Just the other day I was sharing a sandwich with one of the local fentanyl addicted prositutes in my neighborhood. They know me, I bring them towels/blankets/toothbrushes and chat with them a lot. I live next to a needle exchange site, so they see me often. I don’t think anyone would judge this woman for how her life turned out if they heard her story. Only a psychopath could leave a conversation with her unmoved by the horror of it. I left feeling heartbroken and incredibly grateful for everything I never had to suffer through.

You simply CANNOT judge poverty until you try to understand it. You CANNOT know what kind of impact being raised by a crack addict has on someone if you don’t ever get exposed to what that’s like.
It’s just so much more comfortable to snuggle into your cozy privilege and judge.
+1

I come from a large family, and on occasion we get into arguments about these types of topics.  Because we all grew up poor, some without a mother (my father was a widower with 6 children when he married my mother).  And we all succeeded!

But...
Nobody was addicted to anything
We had a large extended family
Hard work was instilled at a young age, and it was a thing in our hometown
My dad was SMART.  My mom was too.  He was an auto mechanic.  She was a bank teller.  My dad watched PBS and listened to Beethoven and read a lot.
Oh and we are white


TempusFugit

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2018, 11:39:19 AM »
The solution to virtually all social problems is, say it with me lads:

Mandatory

Full

Employment

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.


Yes, this is a dangerous idea that displays a remakable ignorance of history. 

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2018, 12:40:05 PM »
Quote
When work is assigned democratically, we will think carefully about what should be done and how; when work is assigned tyrannically, no thought is given, and work becomes both unpleasant to perform and also socially counterproductive.

Or people could make their own decisions about how and where they want to work, giving neither tyrants nor democratic mobs a say in the matter.

PiobStache

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #112 on: September 14, 2018, 01:17:12 PM »
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

A simple, "I was wrong" is fitting here.
I wasn't wrong, the news reports were.

I literally LOL'ed at my desk. 

You never answered...when's the last time you read Atlas Shrugged?

Kl285528

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2018, 01:46:28 PM »
Something about this really bothers me. In two opposite directions.
One is the unfairness to me of having to support people who make not one bad mistake, but instead make one bad mistake followed by another, etc. Why do I have to keep paying for this person’s continued irresponsibility? Although, one way or another, as a society, we will pay for these mistakes through increased crime, courts and incarceration.
And yet, I want to help, to make things better, to be compassionate, to give extra chances. I don’t want to lose another generation to hopelessness and perpetuating this vicious cycle.
Just internally torn and conflicted - I guess not surprising given that the poverty cycle is one of the most complex problems we face.

mathlete

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #114 on: September 14, 2018, 01:48:06 PM »
ACA just for poor people?  A similar comment was made in the other thread:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/decreasing-income-to-increase-benefits/msg2115237/#msg2115237

Given that it's an income tested benefit, somehow I don't think they had millionaires in mind when they drew up the legislation.

accolay

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2018, 01:50:58 PM »
Right?? CLEARLY SHE'S NOT POOR ENOUGH NOR HAS SHE SUFFERED ENOUGH.  We really need to make sure her disabled child doesn't get any help, that the children starve and end up homeless.  THAT FIXES EVERYTHING.

Yeah. People forget that generational poverty thing too.

People who are destitute are good at managing for one day at a time. You don't get to really develop those long range spreadsheet planning skills when you're beat for basically your whole life. Sprinkle in the fact that a lot of Americans, poor or not are shit at managing money in general and voila!

Also going to add that it's been shown that it's cheaper to house people in these situations.

mathlete

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2018, 02:02:24 PM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.

I'm very thankful that the military worked out for you. But the powers that be do a lot of really stupid and deadly things with the military. Like risking American lives to send them overseas and start a conflict that claims lives in the six figures based on faulty intelligence. Then, the ones lucky enough to come back are often stricken with mental illness and dumped on to an unprepared Veteran's healthcare system.

Though maybe if everyone's kids had skin in the game, politicians would be a bit more judicious with their use of force. Until then though, I'm not psyched about giving the world's deadliest military more numbers to play with.

I have totally seen what happened to you happen with others though. The military truly can work wonders for some people. There's gotta be a way to instill that discipline and direction somewhere else though...

BookLoverL

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2018, 02:33:38 PM »
Mandatory employment is a terrible idea. Ugh. No way. Just thinking about all that wasted effort...

Regarding the actual subject of the thread, I think some sense of balance is needed. It's important to recognise that people get into circumstances which aren't always their fault, and, even if they are their fault, they deserve the chance to learn and grow, and that in order to do this they need to not be starving and homeless. It's ALSO important to recognise that people can make better choices with appropriate guidance and education, and that society shouldn't have to enable someone's bad habits when they aren't doing anything to change them.

Therefore, I would suggest that the ideal system would be Universal Basic Income or similar, possibly with extra payments for those disabled people who need to buy things like wheelchairs, BUT the UBI would require attendance at some sort of yearly "sensible money management" course or other course appropriate to their life situation. So people aren't left to be in poverty, but they're also being shown how to improve themselves. And then the school system ought to be improved so that kids in public school get the right messages about being able to take charge of their lives and the skills they need and whatever even if their parents aren't the sort who would teach them that. And ultimately, if somebody ends up playing video games all day on their UBI, that's their choice. If the right messages are in the culture, not many people will decide to do that, though.

TL;DR: We need to give welfare and show compassion to people in poverty and not let them starve AND help get them out of having to rely on welfare. Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

As an aside, I really feel bad for everyone who lives in the US where a minor health issue can cost so much money. The NHS might be slow sometimes and often underfunded, but it's definitely awesome to have around.

maizefolk

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #118 on: September 14, 2018, 03:05:58 PM »
What it actually means is that when people decide democratically what must be done, and how, and by whom, the alienation of labor from its products is removed.

If there are more blue people than green people, a vote is held, and it is democratically decided to make the green people do all the work . . . how is alienation of labor from it's products removed?

Took the words right out of my mouth GuitarStv (but explained the crux of the problem more clearly and more succinctly than I could have managed).

I will add that the currency form of value can serve to obfuscate material reality a bit. The notion that labor can be "set aside" in the form of savings is true only from a narrow perspective. For the most part, labor must be performed continuously, because it is not possible to grow next year's tomatoes or do grandma's hip replacement in advance. It would be better and more honest if currency were abolished and prices were denominated in labor-hours. At a bare minimum, thinking in those terms goes a long way toward understanding what the economy "is."

This approach ignores the force multiplier effect of investments in capital. I cannot grow next year's tomatoes today, but I can invest in better and more automated washing and sorting facilities that will allow me to harvest next year's tomatoes with far fewer hours working in the field than this year. I can dig irrigation ditches or install drip irrigation which mean I won't have to carry water to my tomato field by hand next year. I can weed just enough to get a crop this year, or I can be much more rigorous in my weeding, knowing that each weed that flowers this year means more work weeding next year.

However, if the value of tomatoes is priced in labor-hours rather than dollars (or other currency), the more I automate my tomato harvest, the less each tomato I harvest it worth and the more tomatoes I need to grow in order to receive enough labor-hours in return to pay for all of my non-tomato needs (for example bread and salt to eat tomatoes with). So instead I don't invest in any labor saving technology, because the more of my own labor I save, the less I'll earn.

Pricing things based on the labor required, rather than supply and demand removes the economic incentives that have taken us from a society where half of all us did nothing but toil in the fields to a society where less than 2% of us do the work of feeding all of us.

As much as I'm worried about what the transition to a society where there is far less work to do than people to do the work will look like, I would not trade it for a society of intentional inefficiency and stagnant progress that forces people to work every day of their lives in the most labor intensive ways of getting the same work done possible.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2018, 03:34:01 PM »
ACA just for poor people?  A similar comment was made in the other thread:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/decreasing-income-to-increase-benefits/msg2115237/#msg2115237

Given that it's an income tested benefit, somehow I don't think they had millionaires in mind when they drew up the legislation.

Did you even refer to the link I posted before responding?  Apparently not, or you would have seen that I said nothing about millionaires or anything about savings.  It had to do with the ACA not being just for "poor" people as was implied in the post in this thread that I was responding to.  Here's the comment I made in the other thread:

You mentioned not taking the ACA in your first post.  I don't really think of the ACA tax credit as being just for poor people.   The ACA means testing allows someone to get a tax credit when earning up to 400% of the federal poverty level.  That's over $100K MAGI for a family of 4 (which excludes certain income such as retirement contributions, meaning actual income could be quite a bit higher).

If it makes you feel any better, most of those poor people aren't actually paying any federal income tax (see my previous post).  Lottery tickets are voluntary spending.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:38:49 PM by DreamFIRE »

DreamFIRE

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2018, 03:48:32 PM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty.

Good idea.  It beats just giving handouts to people that don't want to work.  Having these people sort through garbage/recyclables as someone else mentioned is a good idea also - there's plenty of it.

UBI was mentioned a few times, which I think is a terrible idea.  Of course many people like the sound of it because it means "free money".

EnjoyIt

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2018, 05:21:21 PM »
What it actually means is that when people decide democratically what must be done, and how, and by whom, the alienation of labor from its products is removed.

If there are more blue people than green people, a vote is held, and it is democratically decided to make the green people do all the work . . . how is alienation of labor from it's products removed?

Took the words right out of my mouth GuitarStv (but explained the crux of the problem more clearly and more succinctly than I could have managed).

I will add that the currency form of value can serve to obfuscate material reality a bit. The notion that labor can be "set aside" in the form of savings is true only from a narrow perspective. For the most part, labor must be performed continuously, because it is not possible to grow next year's tomatoes or do grandma's hip replacement in advance. It would be better and more honest if currency were abolished and prices were denominated in labor-hours. At a bare minimum, thinking in those terms goes a long way toward understanding what the economy "is."

This approach ignores the force multiplier effect of investments in capital. I cannot grow next year's tomatoes today, but I can invest in better and more automated washing and sorting facilities that will allow me to harvest next year's tomatoes with far fewer hours working in the field than this year. I can dig irrigation ditches or install drip irrigation which mean I won't have to carry water to my tomato field by hand next year. I can weed just enough to get a crop this year, or I can be much more rigorous in my weeding, knowing that each weed that flowers this year means more work weeding next year.

However, if the value of tomatoes is priced in labor-hours rather than dollars (or other currency), the more I automate my tomato harvest, the less each tomato I harvest it worth and the more tomatoes I need to grow in order to receive enough labor-hours in return to pay for all of my non-tomato needs (for example bread and salt to eat tomatoes with). So instead I don't invest in any labor saving technology, because the more of my own labor I save, the less I'll earn.

Pricing things based on the labor required, rather than supply and demand removes the economic incentives that have taken us from a society where half of all us did nothing but toil in the fields to a society where less than 2% of us do the work of feeding all of us.

As much as I'm worried about what the transition to a society where there is far less work to do than people to do the work will look like, I would not trade it for a society of intentional inefficiency and stagnant progress that forces people to work every day of their lives in the most labor intensive ways of getting the same work done possible.

@maizeman
I was thinking of a way to respond to this socialist drivel but would never have come up with anything so perfect.  This guy must be a troll considering the low post count and talking about forced labor on an early retirement forum.

mm1970

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2018, 05:23:50 PM »
Right?? CLEARLY SHE'S NOT POOR ENOUGH NOR HAS SHE SUFFERED ENOUGH.  We really need to make sure her disabled child doesn't get any help, that the children starve and end up homeless.  THAT FIXES EVERYTHING.

Yeah. People forget that generational poverty thing too.

People who are destitute are good at managing for one day at a time. You don't get to really develop those long range spreadsheet planning skills when you're beat for basically your whole life. Sprinkle in the fact that a lot of Americans, poor or not are shit at managing money in general and voila!

Also going to add that it's been shown that it's cheaper to house people in these situations.

I've heard that.  Does anyone have any links or books to that affect?

It's a topic that interests me greatly.  We have a massive homeless problem in my town.  Not unexpected as, it's expensive as shit here.  Salaries aren't nearly as high as they would be in other, larger, HCOL areas.  The weather is incredibly temperate, so people like to come here.  There's sympathy for the homeless.  And the Section 8 waitlist is 8-10 years long.

Often I hear people talk about the homeless like "get the fuck out.  You have no right to live wherever you want, go someplace cheaper."  Which, yeah.  I've lived in other HCOL areas where if you can't afford it, you just move "further out".  I also hear people comment that "we just need to take care of everyone!"

The truth is that it's a lot more complicated.  And complicated is hard.  So people don't like it.  They want easy.

The reasons matter
- why are they homeless
- Are they homeless by choice
- Are they employed
- Do they have a substance abuse problem
- Do they have mental capacity problems

Our homeless people include:
- People with jobs who are tired of paying $2k a month in rent, so they moved into their car or van because they don't want to drive an hour to get to work
- People who live with multiple families to one apartment or house
- Families who pitch a tent in a backyard
- 100 people (at least) who live in tent cities all over town, in the woods, in parks, next to the railroad tracks
- People who have lived here forever and have a job but literally can no longer afford rent
- People who have aged out of foster care and had to sleep on the streets before their first paycheck
- People who are mentally ill.  We closed down the mental institutions.  You aren't allowed to hold people against their will.
- Families who lost their housing and didn't leave so they live in a car
- People who are addicted to ... whatever.  All sorts of things.
- People in RVs
- People living on disability
- People who live in shelters
- People in their 20s who drift into town, because who doesn't want to live on the beach?  Many of them are aggressive panhandlers.

There are quite literally a massive combination of situations - mental acuity, addiction, people with jobs and not, people who came in from out of town, people who grew up here and are priced out but have family here, people who cannot afford to move (good luck moving without a job), people who want to work, people who don't want to work.  It's incredibly complicated.  And while I see both sides - I mean I REALLY don't like to see homeless downtown.  I hate that the parking structures smell like urine.  Housing people and providing a place to sleep, shower, eat, has GOT to be a better idea.  BUT, we have limited funds and one small town or area of 200,000 people cannot provide unlimited housing and food for anyone who wants to move here for the weather.

fuzzy math

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2018, 05:27:59 PM »
Something about this really bothers me. In two opposite directions.
One is the unfairness to me of having to support people who make not one bad mistake, but instead make one bad mistake followed by another, etc. Why do I have to keep paying for this person’s continued irresponsibility? Although, one way or another, as a society, we will pay for these mistakes through increased crime, courts and incarceration.
And yet, I want to help, to make things better, to be compassionate, to give extra chances. I don’t want to lose another generation to hopelessness and perpetuating this vicious cycle.
Just internally torn and conflicted - I guess not surprising given that the poverty cycle is one of the most complex problems we face.

you aren't supporting anyone. Whatever taxes you pay probably barely cover the public services you use (city, state govt, public works, education, federal resources etc). No one is paying for these people. We have a $19 trillion deficit. If anything, your $$ is probably going to help build missiles to blow people up in other countries. So don't get all uptight about some poor person.

If you want to be compassionate, be compassionate.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2018, 05:36:22 PM »
The comment above regarding the missing dads in this article is spot on and the undiscussed men are part of the blame.  This really keeps coming back to education and bringing resources to help people help themselves.   Educate people on birth control and the value of family is key in these situations and I am sorry I did not leave harsh judgement on those deadbeat dads who are 50% responsible for this article.

Can simply giving money solve the problem?  In some instances it definitely could.  This could be especially so if that money is used to remove debt and fund education.  It accomplish less if it is just used to pay for groceries and utilities since that money will need to be repeated every year for that persons life.  It is even worse if that cash is used on the new iPhone XS.  Without the tools to understand the best use of that money, there is a good chance that cash will be needed next year and the year after that.  Without the proper tools to educate the kids to not do crack, to not have babies as teenagers, to value education and the family unit then those who were born in that environment are likely to repeat it themselves. 

Sure throwing money can help but it is much more useful to help people to improve themselves so that eventually they don't need the money at all.  I stated earlier that I grew up in poverty.  But I grew up in a family that taught me the value of education. As a child I was given the tools needed to pull out of that shit hole and I did.  That is what we need for our youth.  One of my colleagues tells me that he too grew up in poverty and his family taught him the value of education.  But, he had friends whose parents were different.  They actually ridiculed them for trying to be smarter.  They acted as if they did not want their kid to be bette or have a better life than them.  It is really hard to succeed in that environment.

maizefolk

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2018, 05:41:51 PM »
Also going to add that it's been shown that it's cheaper to house people in these situations.

I've heard that.  Does anyone have any links or books to that affect?
[/quote]

Here is one of the studies that is frequently cited in these debates: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1694.html I'm not an expert in this area so I cannot evaluate the quality of the study or the reasonableness of any assumptions, just link to it and tell you its one I see cited reasonably often.

That particular study looked at an experimental "Housing First" program in Los Angeles County and found that spending $9,900/year housing a homeless person and ~$5,400/year per person on caseworker services saved the county ~$22,800/year per person in reduced spending on emergency room visits and arrests/imprisonment for a net savings of about $7,500/person per year. If you use the search term "housing first" you can find a number of popular press articles, although they all seem to use slightly different numbers and different assumptions.

GuitarStv

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2018, 06:05:32 PM »
I was thinking of a way to respond to this socialist drivel but would never have come up with anything so perfect.  This guy must be a troll considering the low post count and talking about forced labor on an early retirement forum.

Tiny point of contention - he seemed to be referring to communist theory (paraphrasing Marx), not socialism.

maizefolk

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2018, 06:15:28 PM »
Thanks for the shoutout @EnjoyIt, and @GuitarStv I agree with you that the system/theory being described is communism rather than socialism.

marty998

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2018, 07:06:04 PM »
I was thinking of a way to respond to this socialist drivel but would never have come up with anything so perfect.  This guy must be a troll considering the low post count and talking about forced labor on an early retirement forum.

Tiny point of contention - he seemed to be referring to communist theory (paraphrasing Marx), not socialism.

Was only a matter of time before Kim Jong-Un joined the forum I guess.

wannabe-stache

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2018, 07:18:19 PM »

Ways the example could have had a different outcome:
1. Get an education or training for a decent career before starting a family.

Then what happens when they *still* can't find a high-paying job, are now blacklisted from the low-paying jobs they used to rely on because they're "overqualified", and are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars in student debt that is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy? Then people on these forums will dogpile on them for making the bad decision of going into debt to pay for education. They knew what they were agreeing to, why did they agree to take on so much debt? Clearly they made a bad decision and it's entirely their fault. You can't win.
One of the things that I think is really funny about this forum is how much it has changed in its short lifespan. There have always been a bunch of people here who were just rich assholes crowing about how they're God's gift to mankind because they bake their own cupcakes, but a few years back, there was a much higher fraction of like, "Bearded Man Squats in Yurt" lifestyle weirdsters. The ratio keeps tilting more and more in favor of just a random sample of America's rich (like, more the bogleheads demographic and less early retirement extreme). The place I've noticed it the most is in threads to do with transit, where years ago there wasn't even a question about upholding the bicycle. But now poor guitar stv is beset on all sides by officious lardbody millionaires hollering out the windows of their 2017 Honda Pilot about SAFETY (they are virtuous, thrifty, and morally upright because they bought the Honda instead of a Mercedes GLC), because like most rich people they live in a perpetual state of mortal terror.

Anyway, threads like this are exactly the same. There were always meanspirited libertarians who fantasize about pissing right in the ugly face of today's lazy homeless, but now they have swelled their ranks and post with pride alongside hundreds of insecure (perpetual mortal terror) 54-year-olds with 7 million dollars whose lifelong philosophical project comprises self justification at the expense of everyone worse off than themselves.

I just came across this thread and this post as well.  i must say i love this post.  i don't know what you're getting and i don't have the time to read the rest of the posts but this is classic in neither a good nor bad way.  out of curiosity are you against the bearded men or the folks that drive a pilot and not a mercedes but hold themselves out to be mustachian?

also - what is your stance on the article that was posted?

BTDretire

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2018, 08:27:39 PM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.

I would love to hear your story in more depth and detail. Have you ever written about it on this forum?
so I join the Navy; recruiter literally has to go to court to re-open one of my cases and get it nole-pros'ed so I can enlist.

Is that recruiter alive so you can give him a big fat kiss on the lips!
You get big credit too, you're not you without the effort you made.
 Congratulations.

Cressida

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2018, 11:50:40 PM »
You should face the consequences of your actions until you mitigate them yourself.  If I spent all my money next month on dumb shit and couldn't pay my rent, I'd expect to be kicked out of my apartment, not to have government (ie... taxpayers like you) come save me.

The root of the problem is broken families, as a result of glorification of trash values in the media, music, movies, and culture.  If you go to countries with quality family structures still in place and observe single mothers or deadbeat fathers, they will be shamed and basically disowned by family members and society as a whole.

If there were no safety nets when people make shit choices and have kids with criminals and deviants, it would happen a lot less.  You can't save everyone.

Shaming. Indeed! Just spitballing here, but perh-a-a-apsss we could begin with public castration of the illegitimate jizz producing machine. It can be reversed 18 years later, when the illegitimate jizz reaches majority and the problem has been mitigated.

Reliable birth control, free, for both sexes, via vending machine and/or discreet mail order, is desirable and would reduce the power of many of the disappointing arguments in this thread. Unfortunately, I'm not god-emperor.

accolay

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #132 on: September 15, 2018, 02:31:09 AM »
Educate people on birth control

Sorry, we can't do that in America. Jesus didn't use birth control.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #133 on: September 15, 2018, 03:11:56 AM »
You should face the consequences of your actions until you mitigate them yourself.  If I spent all my money next month on dumb shit and couldn't pay my rent, I'd expect to be kicked out of my apartment, not to have government (ie... taxpayers like you) come save me.

The root of the problem is broken families, as a result of glorification of trash values in the media, music, movies, and culture.  If you go to countries with quality family structures still in place and observe single mothers or deadbeat fathers, they will be shamed and basically disowned by family members and society as a whole.

If there were no safety nets when people make shit choices and have kids with criminals and deviants, it would happen a lot less.  You can't save everyone.

Shaming. Indeed! Just spitballing here, but perh-a-a-apsss we could begin with public castration of the illegitimate jizz producing machine. It can be reversed 18 years later, when the illegitimate jizz reaches majority and the problem has been mitigated.

Reliable birth control, free, for both sexes, via vending machine and/or discreet mail order, is desirable and would reduce the power of many of the disappointing arguments in this thread. Unfortunately, I'm not god-emperor.

I agree with you. Yet, @partdopy asked for shame. The pull of the scarlet letter must be complied with and obeyed. I'm simply proposing the most effective application of lettering I can envision.

I mean, last time 'round we tried painting women as the vigilant rampart at the sexual gates, and men as ravaging penis beasts. That turned out sorta bad for humanity. Sooooo, maybe we flip it all around? It will probably still be bad for humanity, but shame dopy said, and shame we must.

Say, @Cressida, have you read The Power by Naomi Alderman? I'd be curious to know your stance. I thought it was wonderful, but I'm not sure what the final intention was. I'd love to discuss it with you.

GuitarStv

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #134 on: September 15, 2018, 05:12:17 AM »
Educate people on birth control

Sorry, we can't do that in America. Jesus didn't use birth control.

That's why he had so many kids!

BicycleB

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #135 on: September 15, 2018, 05:25:42 AM »

One of the things I like most about the great philosopher T. Kaczynski

You're a fan of the Unabomber?

GuitarStv

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #136 on: September 15, 2018, 05:33:47 AM »

One of the things I like most about the great philosopher T. Kaczynski

You're a fan of the Unabomber?

He was da bomb?

EnjoyIt

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #137 on: September 15, 2018, 10:05:31 AM »
This approach ignores the force multiplier effect of investments in capital. I cannot grow next year's tomatoes today, but I can invest in better and more automated washing and sorting facilities that will allow me to harvest next year's tomatoes with far fewer hours working in the field than this year. I can dig irrigation ditches or install drip irrigation which mean I won't have to carry water to my tomato field by hand next year. I can weed just enough to get a crop this year, or I can be much more rigorous in my weeding, knowing that each weed that flowers this year means more work weeding next year.

However, if the value of tomatoes is priced in labor-hours rather than dollars (or other currency), the more I automate my tomato harvest, the less each tomato I harvest it worth and the more tomatoes I need to grow in order to receive enough labor-hours in return to pay for all of my non-tomato needs (for example bread and salt to eat tomatoes with). So instead I don't invest in any labor saving technology, because the more of my own labor I save, the less I'll earn.

Pricing things based on the labor required, rather than supply and demand removes the economic incentives that have taken us from a society where half of all us did nothing but toil in the fields to a society where less than 2% of us do the work of feeding all of us.

As much as I'm worried about what the transition to a society where there is far less work to do than people to do the work will look like, I would not trade it for a society of intentional inefficiency and stagnant progress that forces people to work every day of their lives in the most labor intensive ways of getting the same work done possible.
I don't know what a "force multiplier effect" is or could be, but you appear to be mere inches away from discovering the Law of Value... the role of invention and investment in the organic composition of capital is, ah, rather well trodden territory.

A couple of thoughts slightly less tedious than reproducing Chapter 25 of Capital...

First, present company perhaps excluded, it is quite obvious that "labor saving devices" in industry are not actually used to save anyone from labor, as Helen Keller observed in this excellent essay from 1932: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1932/08/put-your-husband-in-the-kitchen/306135/

To the contrary, not only did European workers during the Industrial Revolution work longer hours under worse conditions than did their agrarian ancestors, workers today, even in many of the wealthy countries, are sweating it out for 40, 50, 60 hours per week. Given, as you point out, that globally the fraction of labor which is dedicated to the production of food has declined from perhaps 80% to perhaps 8%, one is apt to scratch one's noodle and puzzle on what that 72% gap of labor has gone toward. In my opinion, the answer is "a lot of dumb bullcrap," but my opinion isn't the only one and that's exactly why democratic control of the economy is so important. If "we" decide that "we" all need X, whether it's televisions or vaccines or mink stoles or F-150 supers duty, then by all means, share and share alike to produce for consumption. But if we would rather take it easy (and we would, because excessive consumption under egalitarian conditions is psychologically unrewarding), then we'll all have to share 1 TV in the rec room I guess.

One of the things I like most about the great philosopher T. Kaczynski is his observations on how inventions that theoretically improve life actually just become mandatory and make life Suck Ass instead. Like in the abstract it seems like it would be cool to have a supercomputer that you carry around with you but instead what happens is it's 2023 and if you want to buy a fucking chair you have to download the Sittr app to unlock the chair's DLC and conform it to your big fat ass and it's so stupid and annoying! But you just have to do it I guess! That's life!

Second, to a large degree so-called "labor saving devices" only supplant labor with energy from coal, oil, or natural gas, so, guess we'll see if anything bad happens because of that (narrator: it did).

Third, and I acknowledge that this is a bit romantic, but for stuff like agricultural work and the manufacture of clothes, food products, furniture, and so on... these are jobs that make people "feel not like they want to die" and "ok with the way that their life is." Speaking of chairs, it's OK if we spend more labor-hours on chairs than is strictly necessary. We can let all the folks out there who hate their shitty pointless jobs make chairs instead. I bet the chairs will be Nice, and not have paywalled DLC because we passed a law so that all property is now held in common.

I remember the times when the Soviet Union decided they should stop making potatoes and make corn instead.  The population starved.  Also nice when they decided to make bombs instead of investing in agriculture and again the population starved.  The problem with deciding for everyone is that not everyone agrees and then you end up with not enough potatoes and too many nuclear weapons. 

As for technology improving our lives.  How about medicine? Without those medical advances we would all be dead by our mid 40s.  How about water filtration?  How about electricity? Travel to be able to visit and experience far away places.  I don't even have to talk about agriculture since it was mentioned today. Sure some of the crap technology has brought along has been garbage.  But with that garbage also came many life saving and improving innovations.  In Communism there is no need to advance which is why the Soviet Union was decades behind technologically after its collapse.  One bright solace I have with Communism is that historically the people that help bring it to power are some of the first to be executed.  Communism does not need smart ass people thwarting the future corruption that is about to happen. 

So why are you on this forum? If communism is what you want then you should never retire while able bodied? 

accolay

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #138 on: September 15, 2018, 12:26:09 PM »
Educate people on birth control

Sorry, we can't do that in America. Jesus didn't use birth control.

That's why he had so many kids!

And every one illigitimate!

maizefolk

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2018, 01:53:48 PM »
I'm going to answer your points a little out of order, as it seems like the core of your argument is the first point and then there are some side issues lower down.

Third, and I acknowledge that this is a bit romantic, but for stuff like agricultural work and the manufacture of clothes, food products, furniture, and so on... these are jobs that make people "feel not like they want to die" and "ok with the way that their life is."

How much of your life have you spent doing agricultural manual labor in order to come to this conclusion? (Without any of that capital equipment you're so dismissive of.)

If you really do enjoy that kind of work, in my life to date I have never, ever, seen a shortage of job openings for people to walk beans, detassel corn or pick tomatoes. Some people really do find hard manual labor under the blazing sun the thing that makes them happiest, just not enough people to fill those jobs even after technological progress and capital investment have dramatically reduced the relative number of people needed to do that work.

Quote
If "we" decide that "we" all need X, whether it's televisions or vaccines or mink stoles or F-150 supers duty, then by all means, share and share alike to produce for consumption. But if we would rather take it easy (and we would, because excessive consumption under egalitarian conditions is psychologically unrewarding), then we'll all have to share 1 TV in the rec room I guess.

It would appear your proposed philosophy does not make allowances for individual variation in preferences in order to enforce egalitarian consumption patterns.

So if Steve, Cindy and I are the entirely of society, if Steve wants an F-150 and a giant flatscreen TV, he is forced to go without because the majority of society disagrees on the importance of these items, whereas if he convinces Cindy to share his desired consumption patterns, now I am forced to work longer and harder to contribute to producing a F-150 and a flatscreen TV for myself, even though I have no desire to own either of these, in order to keep our consumption egalitarian.

Quote
Second, to a large degree so-called "labor saving devices" only supplant labor with energy from coal, oil, or natural gas, so, guess we'll see if anything bad happens because of that (narrator: it did).

This takes an extremely narrow and time-constrained view of both technological improvements and capital investments.

-Consider a humble irrigation ditch and how many trips to and from a stream or well it saves an individual farmer.

-Consider the Erie Canal, and how many fewer human hours and horse/mule hours were necessary to transport goods between the cities of upstate New York after its construction.

-Or a windmill/watermill (the original variety which was used for milling grain). In societies without milling technology and infrastructure, women often spend hours each grinding grain into flour for the bread or tortillas that were the main source of sustenance.

-Even today, you can buy a bicycle which is much faster, lighter, will last longer without requiring major maintenance or repair, and costs less (in terms of hours worked in order to be able to afford it) than a bike from 1950, even though the contribution of fossil fuel energy to the manufacture of that bicycle hasn't notable increased.

Quote
First, present company perhaps excluded, it is quite obvious that "labor saving devices" in industry are not actually used to save anyone from labor, as Helen Keller observed in this excellent essay from 1932: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1932/08/put-your-husband-in-the-kitchen/306135/

To the contrary, not only did European workers during the Industrial Revolution work longer hours under worse conditions than did their agrarian ancestors, workers today, even in many of the wealthy countries, are sweating it out for 40, 50, 60 hours per week. Given, as you point out, that globally the fraction of labor which is dedicated to the production of food has declined from perhaps 80% to perhaps 8%, one is apt to scratch one's noodle and puzzle on what that 72% gap of labor has gone toward. In my opinion, the answer is "a lot of dumb bullcrap," but my opinion isn't the only one and that's exactly why democratic control of the economy is so important. ....

One of the things I like most about the great philosopher T. Kaczynski is his observations on how inventions that theoretically improve life actually just become mandatory and make life Suck Ass instead. Like in the abstract it seems like it would be cool to have a supercomputer that you carry around with you but instead what happens is it's 2023 and if you want to buy a fucking chair you have to download the Sittr app to unlock the chair's DLC and conform it to your big fat ass and it's so stupid and annoying! But you just have to do it I guess! That's life!

You keep using "labor saving devices" in quotes when I never used that term. Why is that and who are you quoting?

As for what happened to all the labor that used to be devoted to growing food in the USA, as you of course know, increases in per worker agricultural productivity since the mid 1800s (from both technological advances and accumulated capital improvements) and first allowed society to begin producing a lot more manufactured goods, and then increases in per worker productivity in manufacturing (again from both technological advances and accumulated capital improvements) meant that more and more people ended up in service work where, to date, we haven't seen the same increase in per-worker productivity from capital investments (although we're starting to see examples like self checkouts and robotic chefs which could have that effect in the future).

What all these changes mean is that, in aggregate, the average american today makes enough money in 1-2 years to support themselves for the rest of their life in a style at or above the average american living in 1850.* These dramatic increases in per-worker productivity also mean that by simply moderating their consumption somewhat (and focusing on what spending actually either brings them joy or avoids suffering), many of the members of this forum are able to save enough money in 7-14 years to support themselves and their families for the rest of their lives in a style that makes few if any truly happiness or wellbeing related concessions, an opportunity unavailable to the vast majority of americans for the vast majority of our country's history.

So in summation, if you consider 1850 the pinnacle of human existence, you can live that lifestyle today. If you consider some advances since the 1850s good (say medicine) and some bad (say television) you can pick the good ones and leave the bad ones behind. If you don't want to own a smartphone, or ever pay for a single piece of DLC in a video game, good for you, you can do just that. If you want to avoid humanity and go live in a cabin like the unabomer, you can do that too.

The only thing you cannot do is make the decision for everyone else about what consumption patterns and life decisions are best for them. And even then, you are free to work at convincing people, one at a time or all at once on the internet, that they shouldn't waste their money (and ultimately their lives) buying pickup trucks and giant televisions. Someone trying to do that is why this forum exists in the first place.

*Unfortunately this includes a 1850s standard of healthcare.

Cressida

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #140 on: September 15, 2018, 02:08:45 PM »
Say, @Cressida, have you read The Power by Naomi Alderman? I'd be curious to know your stance. I thought it was wonderful, but I'm not sure what the final intention was. I'd love to discuss it with you.

I haven't, but it's come up several times now, including in book group earlier this week. So I think I will have to read it, even though speculative fiction usually drives me up a tree. Stand by.  :)

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #141 on: September 15, 2018, 03:11:07 PM »
My own solution to poverty was to move somewhere else in the country that actually had good-paying jobs and borrow a shit-ton of money from the government to pay for the education I needed to be able to get one of those jobs. There are tons of articles out there talking about poverty but when it comes down to it we can never ever expect anybody to want to help the poor, so the poor need to take things into their own hands. Nobody cares and nobody wants to help, so like our pioneer ancestors who traveled thousands of miles to find a better life, the poor need to pull up stakes, move to either another part of the country or another country, and then conquer the damn place. (Figuratively in this case.) That's my two cents anyway.

swampwiz

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #142 on: September 15, 2018, 05:18:38 PM »
Universal basic income is the answer.  Stop demonizing corporations.  We're all trying to FIRE here so let's stop demonizing those that will make that possible.  People (and corporations) respond to incentives.  It's Econ 101.  So change the system.  UBI, universal healthcare (Bismarck please, not Canadian style like I grew up with,) college or trade school for those that put the effort in and have the ability.  Societal problems need societal solutions.

Here's an interesting working paper and it's yet another problem in the making:  http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/video-killed-radio-star

UBI so society can live in a basement and play video games 23.5 hours a day? Seriously?

If that many folks decided to "live in a basement" then there would be a dearth of labor supply meaning that employers would need to bid up wages and working conditions to motivate folks to give up the Xbox.  All dynamic systems have an equilibrium level; our economic system has such a level that is nasty & brutish for the Working Class.

swampwiz

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #143 on: September 15, 2018, 06:18:33 PM »
(Some) early retirees: "UBI is a non-starter. We shouldn't be paying people not to work. Get a job."

Also early retirees: "I'm quitting my job at 30 and manipulating my reportable income so that I get fat ACA subsidies to pay for my healthcare."

:)

For the record, I support UBI and manipulating reportable income to get the ObamaRomneyHeritageCare Medicaid expansion.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2018, 07:15:27 PM »
I agree that we have a problem with government programs enabling corporations to pay low wages.
It seems to me the article puts the blame on government benefits when it should be putting the blame on minimum wage and work conditions. A job can be well-paid, and/or secure. At least one of the two will make the worker's life better. If Vanessa's income were insecure but higher, she could make plans; if her income were the same but secure, she could make plans. As it is she can do neither.

In her case the insecurity and poor pay are tied to the USA's dysfunctional healthcare system. But it could as well be her working in retail or hospitality. A decent minimum wage and strong worker protections are necessary: Australia has the former but not the latter, so that people struggle, but rarely as badly as depicted in this article.

"Because large companies now farm out many positions to independent contractors, those who buff the floors at Microsoft or wash the sheets at the Sheraton typically are not employed by Microsoft or Sheraton, thwarting any hope of advancing within the company."

And that simply isn't necessary, it's just corporate stinginess and disloyalty.

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The article, however, shows a woman who has consistently made terrible choices.  She has 3 children, by 2 different men who are (or were, one is dead) completely useless.  I could see it being a mistake at 1, but at this point it is a choice.
You don't think the men made bad choices, too? Is it only her fault?

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The third paragraph highlights that she is unable to get her children to behave, and instead gets hotel rooms when they don't behave.  Maybe teach your kids to behave?  They are 17, 14 and 12, hardly an age where they should be having issues. 
The patterns would have been established early on. If she's having to constantly work to house and feed the children, then she doesn't have as much time and mental energy to be an effective parent. And I don't think you grasp just how unsettling it is to children to be homeless. Having the same four walls, however shitty, reliably around them each day is a big deal for children. Even well-off families who move a lot (military or corporate work) have discipline problems with their children. Children need stability.

What I would like to point to is the mention of her mother, Zaida. The article doesn't specify her mysterious health conditions, but it doesn't mention her needing in-home care or visits to hospital, so she can't be that bad: a 62yo should not need a walking frame. As a trainer, I have worked with many older people with health problems, and basically everyone under 80yo on a walking frame - it's their choice. It's not because of their arthritis or whatever, it's because they're sitting on their arse watching tv.

If Zaida took better care of herself then she'd be able to tolerate the children better and her daughter would have a more secure home life, making everything better. As well, the article mentions, "At her childhood home, Vanessa began caring for her ailing father. He had been a functional crack addict for most of her life -". Why was he an addict? Why was Zaida not taking care of the father of her children? So we see that Vanessa is willing to care for her parents, and will almost certainly help out her mother Zaida when needed - but this isn't reciprocated, when Vanessa's kids are a pain, it's "get the fuck out." Zaida won't help herself, and doesn't really want to help her daughter Vanessa.

So what the article really illustrates is that a single generation of inadequate family relationships (sole parent of children with multiple fathers) doesn't necessarily mess you up, but take it to 2-3 generations and you're in trouble. There are across the world many sole parents living with their own parents, and everyone helps each-other.

It seems to be that Vanessa is doing a remarkably good job given being the daughter of a crack addict and a lazy mother, who is doing her best to care for that lazy mother and her wild kids.

Now, the article seems to be driving at the idea that more government benefits is the answer. The problem is that someone must pay for them. Rather than allowing companies to given people low-paid insecure work, then taxing companies more to give out the benefits, it seems simpler to legislate better wages and working conditions. It's not like Microsoft won't still need someone to sweep up, or the Sheraton won't need someone to do the dishes.

There is no doubt that the welfare system in the US, like the healthcare system, needs to be better. But ensuring the jobs that do exist are better-paying and/or more secure would do a lot. But that would require restricting the "free market", and just as the Soviet Union persisted with collectivisation despite its massive failures, so too does the US persist with a "free market". Ideology means "if it doesn't work, it's just because we didn't go hard enough!" The US is as tied to a failed ideology as the SU was.

BicycleB

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2018, 09:56:41 PM »
Meh. I live off the government teet. My shelter, food, and medical care all come from tax payers. It could be argued that I proved service in exchange for my nipple, but eventually my pension will kick in and I fully intend to cease any sort of labor. Baring early death, the taxpayers will likely give me $1m in pension monies. God alone knows what my medical costs will total.

Worse! The largess of sustenance far exceeds my actual needs. I'm saving at the tax payer's expense. Why the fuck am I celebrated, while this woman is called a wastrel, slattern, and whore?

Because you are an old white fart?

More like 30something in uniform, currently off the Carolina coast saving lives, @swampwiz

Hargrove

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2018, 12:20:39 AM »
Over the years I have worked with countless single moms who worked full time jobs while going to school.

I can't imagine how they do it and it makes me look like a lazy piece of shit. 

There is no reason why this woman can't do it also.

That was... an interesting trip... there.

Human beings are in the lead over "ticks" and roughly tied with "tree stumps" in the competition for "best at determining what others deserve."

The deservation olympics bullshit needs to be flipped over and broken forever. The throttle for maintaining "optimal economic choices" shouldn't be "indefinite suffering" unless we have given the fuck up on civilization.

If someone witnesses pain, then plugs it FIRST into an algorithm to see if it's "deserved," I seriously feel sorry for them. I guess on the flipside, they must never be mad at Microsoft Tech Support, because they fairly wonder if maybe they did something to deserve being on hold with them for so long. Oh wait, no, the deservation thing is really just for inconvenient, other people.

Only the poor have to contend with being constantly asked if they didn't really deserve (bad thing) to happen to them after all, by people desperate to prove there isn't a good reason to care.

runbikerun

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #147 on: September 16, 2018, 01:16:46 AM »
It's extraordinary to see the short-sightedness on display in some of the answers here.

If your retirement is based on stock market returns, then it's dependent on there not being a drastic social upheaval. America has gone remarkably long without one of those, but it's instructive to remember that past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. Early retirement - hell, our entire economic system - is dependent on a substantial enough supermajority always being in place which is reasonably happy with the outcomes. If a sizeable enough minority decides that burning everything down and seeing what happens is a gamble worth taking, then there is no guarantee that your retirement plan survives. In certain cases, there is no guarantee that you survive. As I said, America has been pretty stable, but in the length of the USA's existence, the French have beheaded a monarchy, gone through a reign of terror, established a republic, been turned into an empire by Napoleon, restored the monarchy, established a second republic, become a second empire, established a third republic, been conquered by Nazi Germany and subsequently ruled by the Vichy regime, beaten back the Germans and established a fourth republic, gone through a series of political crises related to colonial ties, and voted the French Fifth Republic into existence. This doesn't even take into account stuff like the Paris Commune or the chaos of 1968. Just because our economic system has been going this way for your entire life does not mean it cannot change.

To continue to live the lives you want, you need to make sure that the vast majority of the population think of the system as being fundamentally fair. A revolution doesn't require 51% approval; it simply needs enough people to flip the table. And I'm looking at people commenting on this article, castigating the woman for her "poor choices" and suggesting she move halfway across the country to a completely new environment, hundreds or thousands of miles from her family and friends, in order to try and get work. I'm seeing comments which boil down to laughing at the idea that this woman might have a reasonable expectation of a home and a job.

"A stable living situation and forty hours a week" is not a revolutionary concept. If you seriously think it's an unreasonable expectation in modern society, then start stocking up on tinned food and batteries, because if you're right then why the fuck should the people at the bottom not start burning the place down?

flipboard

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2018, 01:39:08 AM »
It's worth remembering that central banks change interest rates to avoid countires going below approximately 5% unemployment.

Our countries are centered around having at least 5% of people unemployed. And we're blaming people for being unemployed?

Personally I'm happy to live in a country that provides sufficient social support that people don't die just because they can't get a job (note: my taxes aren't higher than US taxes, while managing to provide that). Some countries make it hard to fire employees (mine isn't one of those) - I personally don't think that's a good idea, because it means that weakened companies can't downsize, leading to more serious issues for business, and ultimately the economy. But if you're going to make it easy to fire employees, you also need to provide some kind of social net that at least lets people retain some dignity and health when they lose their job for reasons they can't control. It's possible the be capitalist without going to the extremes that the US sees, and it doesn't seem to cost the country more in the long run.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2018, 09:19:48 AM »
It seems to me the article puts the blame on government benefits when it should be putting the blame on minimum wage and work conditions.

Minimum wage amounts to a hidden tax.  I would prefer there wasn't one and let the job market determine what a job's pay is worth.

(Some) early retirees: "UBI is a non-starter. We shouldn't be paying people not to work. Get a job."
Also early retirees: "I'm quitting my job at 30 and manipulating my reportable income so that I get fat ACA subsidies to pay for my healthcare."

For the record, I support UBI and manipulating reportable income to get the ObamaRomneyHeritageCare Medicaid expansion.

Unlike ACA, Medicaid is meant for poor people, so many would say that was unethical if you have a large stash or are capable of working a job.  UBI is a terrible idea, but it doesn't surprise me to see some people promote it because it just means "free money" to them.

....so the poor need to take things into their own hands. Nobody cares and nobody wants to help, so like our pioneer ancestors who traveled thousands of miles to find a better life, the poor need to pull up stakes, move to either another part of the country or another country, and then conquer the damn place. (Figuratively in this case.) That's my two cents anyway.

Agreed, they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and not expect a free ride on the taxpayer dime.