Are you the kind of person who gives and doesn't get much in return?

[pudding]

By that I don't just mean giving material things. I mean your time and supporting people and also material things.

I think I fall into this kind of pattern. I was talking to someone else last night and she was talking about how she has done a lot for her friends and community and recently she found out that they were doing things out side of their shared circle without asking her.

Also some others hadn't given a voluntary donation for an event the she laid on for them(it was a very enjoyable event) She said she felt betrayed by them, and I know what she's saying. I know some people who go to her free events and take their own water so as not to have to buy the cheap bottled water they sell to help cover their expenses.

Its kind of a bad habit I think... I think it's setting yourself up for feeling bad. But then again the people not giving to the free event etc... kind of tight asses who often don't do much worth talking about?

But if you start to do same as them then things start to suck.

Its not just free events Im talking about. One thing that comes to mind is a couple of friends I brought into a deal once and they earned around 30k 10 months later... never a thanks, or 'hey lets go for a beer and celebrate'

I don't really give hoping to buy affection or getting things in return as a condition, though its nice and if there is no give and take and only take! then I do feel resentment.

Seems more I seem to have more of a giving reflex than the people I'm giving to.

Maybe a bit off the subject of FIRE etc... but some good thinkers on this forum, so though I'd ask.

Anyone any thoughts?

[imustachemystash]

Yes.  All the time!  I am comforted by the poem you see below:

Do it Anyway — Mother Teresa
 
People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered.
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind,
people may accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful,
you will win some false friends and some true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank,
people may cheat you.
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight.
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous.
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today,
people will often forget tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have,
and it may never be enough.
Give the best you've got anyway.

You see,
in the final analysis it is between you and God;
it was never between you and them anyway.

[Zikoris]

Maybe once upon a time, but I've gotten lazy as I get older - my policy is generally to match the effort level put forth by the other person. As a result, my relationships that still exist now all feel very balanced.

[MBot]

Yeah. I call it the "help moving" equation.

There will always be more people that need help moving than can help you move.

It's true for anything. The faster you realize it and draw your strength from other things, then you can give freely without expecting in return. That's true for serving people and doing projects, giving money, etc.

When it comes to friendships and my inner circle however, I don't spend the emotional energy of giving to intensively mentoring friendships or become close friends with needy people. I can't run around depleted like that.

[Lyssa]

Are we talking about acquaintances or real friends here?

I think the closer you are to somebody the more balanced a relationship should be. Otherwise you'll get sucked try and be resented in return.

With people I only meet once or twice a year anyway I usually just let it go. Not worth arguing over and not worth sinking to their level. But I've learned to carefully monitor such behaviour and use the data collected when deciding whom to include in a closer circle and whom to trust with more important things.

I'm neither a saint nor aspiring to be one. My friendships are based on reciprocity and are between me and my friends. Not between me and god. While I have religious friends I would be kind of pissed if they helped me out and then told me that they did not do it for me but for god... I find this a very strange way of thinking. Or does it only apply if you have done for something for somebody profoundly ungrateful?

[soccerluvof4]

My dad use to say " dont do things for others if you want to feel appreciated because you will always be disappointed."  I am always helping others and have been taken advantage of alot, mostly by what I though were friends that I ended up parting from. Having said that I will still help others but as I have gotten older am more cautious. While you dont want to keep score its nice to get some help back once in awhile as well.

[pbnj]

Some people will use you if you let them.  If I feel that someone is not reasonably reciprocating in some small way within their means then I bear no ill will but won't help out or do whatever again.  Some people are just 'takers', and some to an asshole extreme.

Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time".

I

[pudding]

In my life I've sort of experienced some extreme situations of people not giving when they really should, and also people giving hugely generously when they really aren't obliged to.

My fathers mother met a man and got married late in her life. He (her new husband) had money and no close relatives. He died first and I never did think about what she might of inherited. In our family really no one had any money, I mean they died and maybe had less than 500 bucks to their name in cash and assets, or nothing at all. I don't think inheriting things was part of our way of thinking.

When fathers mother died a few years after her husband, me and my sister went to her funeral, we were never close to fathers side of family, almost never saw them.

My sister struck up a friendship with our cousin at the funeral, cousin was the daughter of our fathers sister.

In a conversation my sister and cousin had a few years later, cousin said wasn't it good of our grandmother to leave us the money as our inheritance before she died?.

Apparently she had divided things up before she passed away and after she'd had a stroke and she had given money to her adult children and also money for them to pass on to their children... in other words! ME ;)

So my sister was shocked... I mean what an asshole thats steals the money his mother willed to her grandchildren, his own kids!

I guess he figured we didn't know that side of the family so he pocketed the money.


On the other side of the coin... I bought my house that Im always going on about off a Chinese women.  She put up a 2nd mortgage of 50k at 12% for 2 years (so 12k total interest to make the deal work) I had zero collateral so interest was high so she did take a chance and it made the deal work so I went for it.   

My idea was to fix up the house, re finance and pay her back. But the banks crashed so I couldnt re fi.   So she generously let me use her own line of credit at a decent interest rate to pay back the high interest loan I had with her. Thereby taking a big chance as it was just based on my word I'd pay her back,  and also she stopped  earning the 12% interest off me of $500 a month.

She later lent me 130k for 2 weeks with just a promissory IOU note so I could save money on re financing my mortgage.

It's a strange life sometimes.

[delfin]

I usually have high expectations of people so when I give, it is because I know they will use it well. That does not necessarily mean I will get something back in equal proportions.

[Late_Bloomer]

Your post reminded me of a time where I went to see a concert and was only able to get tickets if I bought 2 or more. They were 150 dollars each, but that was back when I was a spendypants. I asked a friend if he wanted to go and I'd give him the extra ticket free. His response, "Oh cool, thanks man. I'll buy you lunch." Well he did buy me lunch...a whopping 15 dollars worth. I blew it off though seeing as I had to buy the extra ticket and didn't ask for anything in return. But damn, if someone offered me 150 dollars worth of...anything, I'd sure do more to show my appreciation!

[human]

If you give expecting something in return it's not exactly a selfless act.

Your op is confusing and mentions betrayal and seems to be full of drama without specifics.

[Slee_stack]

If you give expecting something in return it's not exactly a selfless act.

Your op is confusing and mentions betrayal and seems to be full of drama without specifics.

Giving always comes with expectations.  Some may expect a financial return.  Others expect to feel better or happier about themselves.  Even in cases where one feels an obligation, religious or otherwise, giving fulfills it.  Giving is anything but selfless.

[sailinlight]

Your post reminded me of a time where I went to see a concert and was only able to get tickets if I bought 2 or more. They were 150 dollars each, but that was back when I was a spendypants. I asked a friend if he wanted to go and I'd give him the extra ticket free. His response, "Oh cool, thanks man. I'll buy you lunch." Well he did buy me lunch...a whopping 15 dollars worth. I blew it off though seeing as I had to buy the extra ticket and didn't ask for anything in return. But damn, if someone offered me 150 dollars worth of...anything, I'd sure do more to show my appreciation!

Maybe the ticket was only worth $15 to him, or that's about how much he thought it cost.  You weren't really giving it to him if you expected something of equivalent value in return.  In that case, you should have sold it on ebay.  Wasn't going to the concert with your friend worth something?

[Ann]

...
...she was talking about how she has done a lot for her friends and community and recently she found out that they were doing things out side of their shared circle without asking her.

Also some others hadn't given a voluntary donation for an event the she laid on for them(it was a very enjoyable event).

I don't quite understand the examples your friend gave.  She set up a free concert, and then was upset that her friends treated it like a free concert?  It sounds like she's setting herself up for disappointment. 

And I don't know what the first example means.  Her friends were hanging out without her?  I understand that can be hurtful.  If they were doing things "outside of their shared circle" does that mean they were hanging out in a different social group?  Truth is, I don't mix all my friends together all the time. 

Maybe she needs new friends, or maybe she needs to actually communicate what her expectations are.  So far, I don't seen anything obvious that her friends did wrong.  Not even in a Miss Manners type way.

[Ann]

Your post reminded me of a time where I went to see a concert and was only able to get tickets if I bought 2 or more. They were 150 dollars each, but that was back when I was a spendypants. I asked a friend if he wanted to go and I'd give him the extra ticket free. His response, "Oh cool, thanks man. I'll buy you lunch." Well he did buy me lunch...a whopping 15 dollars worth. I blew it off though seeing as I had to buy the extra ticket and didn't ask for anything in return. But damn, if someone offered me 150 dollars worth of...anything, I'd sure do more to show my appreciation!

Would you have felt better if he didn't even offer to buy lunch?  Did you feel upset that he repaid his social debt with something much less expensive?  Why didn't you just tell him you'd give him the second ticket for $75 or something, if you wanted something in return?

This summer I bought two tickets to a concert.  Okay, so it was $150 total and not each, but I didn't want to go alone.  I specifically said "want to come?  tickets on me if you get dinner".  Dinner was my choice.  I chose Wendy's.  $7 meal.   I am perfectly happy with that, and am glad I got the company AND the free meal.  I don't see why you're upset.

[pbnj]

He/she didn't say they were upset, just said he would likely offer more for a similar thoughtfulness.  Recipient probably knew the monetary value of the ticket.  I, too, would have reciprocated with more.  I have had similar situations happen and it didn't.upset me either but it can be useful to find.out who the cheap asses are.

[Ann]

He/she didn't say they were upset, just said he would likely offer more for a similar thoughtfulness. ... it can be useful to find.out who the cheap asses are.

Perhaps upset is a strong word, but both you and Late_Bloomer have expressed disappointment.  You feel as thought the friend has revealed him/herself to be a "cheap ass."  So, if you give someone something, tell them explicitly it is for free,  you expect immediate repayment of equal financial value?  It seems you are setting yourself up.  If you feel as though your actions require immediate financial reimbursement, then perhaps it should be explicitly stated. 

Maybe the other person never said thank you with enthusiasm.  Yes, I think there should be gratitude when receiving a gift. I don't think the person owed a $150 meal.  Or even a $40 one.  Especially if the giver said "I'll give it for X"  (in this case free) and the recipient volunteered to do something beyond that. 

[pudding]

If you give expecting something in return it's not exactly a selfless act.

Your op is confusing and mentions betrayal and seems to be full of drama without specifics.

I think where I was going with my line of thinking there (regards betrayal)  is that I'm about to net a lot of money and my father and other family members are broke, mostly due to not bothering to do anything about it.

They also flat out refused to help me when I was really struggling and actually doing something about being broke. In fact I think its fair to say that my father got a bit of a bit of a kick out of seeing my plan run into trouble.

So I'm thinking about give and take...   If someone left you hanging when you asked them for a hand, and then your cards turn up aces... do you help them out?

(I know its dramatic, I'm an artsy fartsy type)

[Ann]

I think where I was going with my line of thinking there (regards betrayal)  is that I'm about to net a lot of money and my father and other family members are broke, mostly due to not bothering to do anything about it.
...   If someone left you hanging when you asked them for a hand, and then your cards turn up aces... do you help them out?

Well, without knowing the specifics, I think you are fine in not giving them money.  The thing is, if your analysis of them is true, I'm not sure giving them money would actually be "helping" them.  It would be different social situation if they always have to you and now you're in a position to return the generosity, even if you felt you might be enabling.  They didn't give to you, so no reciprocity pressure! 

An exception might be an underage niece/nephew/cousin who might have an opportunity for skills/improvement if you are generous.  Like paying for a class, drivers ed, braces, a musical instrument.  Only if you want to, though.

Are they asking for stuff?  Or do you just feel the pressure of he financial inequality?

[pudding]

I think where I was going with my line of thinking there (regards betrayal)  is that I'm about to net a lot of money and my father and other family members are broke, mostly due to not bothering to do anything about it.
...   If someone left you hanging when you asked them for a hand, and then your cards turn up aces... do you help them out?

Well, without knowing the specifics, I think you are fine in not giving them money.  The thing is, if your analysis of them is true, I'm not sure giving them money would actually be "helping" them.  It would be different social situation if they always have to you and now you're in a position to return the generosity, even if you felt you might be enabling.  They didn't give to you, so no reciprocity pressure! 

An exception might be an underage niece/nephew/cousin who might have an opportunity for skills/improvement if you are generous.  Like paying for a class, drivers ed, braces, a musical instrument.  Only if you want to, though.

Are they asking for stuff?  Or do you just feel the pressure of he financial inequality?

I think I'm feeling the 'giving' reflex again ;)  Like it wouldn't be a big deal to help out.  I think I'll help out my daughter, parent / children relationships I think its OK for one who's lived most years to cut younger one some slack. Not endlessly, but a few years back she got some student loans. At the time I didn't have any money to help with that. So I'd square that one up.

My own father though, I'm not so sure. I doubt it, or at least I wouldn't just so he didn't have to feel uncomfortable having a visa bill. If it was something more pressing I probably would.

[kite]

Currently yes, but it hasn't always been this way.  I've been on the receiving end of incredible kindness over the years, some things that would be impossible to repay. 

[human]

If you give expecting something in return it's not exactly a selfless act.

Your op is confusing and mentions betrayal and seems to be full of drama without specifics.

Giving always comes with expectations.  Some may expect a financial return.  Others expect to feel better or happier about themselves.  Even in cases where one feels an obligation, religious or otherwise, giving fulfills it.  Giving is anything but selfless.

I was referring to the person you give to. If you give to friends and family and expect quid pro quo from them you are doing it for the wrong reasons. If you give to them for that warm fuzzy feeling and not because you expect them to give back you wouldn't be having the feelings the op is having.

[dividendman]

Other peoples' friendships always seem weird to me. My friends and I always just put things out in the open.

If I throw a party and don't expect anyone to pay, I'll just say "it's on me".

If I throw a party but want everyone to chip in I'll say "Hey, let's get together at my house, we'll split the drinks/food/blah." and then everyone is expected to pay and they do.

For some reason a lot of folks I know can't just be open with their friends. Are these really your friends then?

A recent example: Amy told John and some others that she's going to take them all out to lunch and pay because she got some kind of gift certificate thing or something. The lunch is two months away. The lunch then happens and everyone but Amy thought Amy was covering the lunch. Amy covered her portion and they ended up splitting the lunch.

Now John (and I assume others) are mad that Amy didn't follow through on her commitment.

So, I ask John:
- Why didn't you ask Amy before the day of the lunch if she still planned on paying (if this was actually important to you)?
- Why didn't you ask (remind) Amy up front by sayign something like "Hey Amy, you're covering this right?"
- Why didn't you, when the bill came, ask Amy why she's not covering it?

John responds by saying things like "well, that's rude, I can't just bring it up then, she should have realized" etc.

If you can't be upfront with your supposed friends about such simple matters, what are you doing hanging out with these people to begin with? None of my friends would have ever thought less of me for bringing up that they said they would pay, or reminding them, or anything like that. Likely we would all just joke about it but the matter would be out in the open and resolved.

Beating around the bush with your friends has got to suck.

[Blueskies123]

I think where I was going with my line of thinking there (regards betrayal)  is that I'm about to net a lot of money and my father and other family members are broke, mostly due to not bothering to do anything about it.
...   If someone left you hanging when you asked them for a hand, and then your cards turn up aces... do you help them out?

Well, without knowing the specifics, I think you are fine in not giving them money.  The thing is, if your analysis of them is true, I'm not sure giving them money would actually be "helping" them.  It would be different social situation if they always have to you and now you're in a position to return the generosity, even if you felt you might be enabling.  They didn't give to you, so no reciprocity pressure! 

An exception might be an underage niece/nephew/cousin who might have an opportunity for skills/improvement if you are generous.  Like paying for a class, drivers ed, braces, a musical instrument.  Only if you want to, though.

Are they asking for stuff?  Or do you just feel the pressure of he financial inequality?

I have seen this play out a dozen times in my life.  My wife is from a South American country.  Once you give any of them money, even once, they will tell each other and they will pester you with every imaginable disaster story.  In once case I know of a relative that actually flew to the USA so they could park themselves on a front door and ask for money.
So I would say no, the only exception is a young person with a track record of success that needs schooling.  Be careful they do not use the money for something else.  Have them send the tuition bills directly to you.