Are you Mustachian, or just LBYM?

[jlcnuke]

I was interested to see how many people are living the Mustachian life, vs just trying to be fiscally responsible. For my purposes here, fiscally responsible means spending less than you earn while having at least a 10% savings rate (the minimum recommend to be financially secure at "normal" retirement age for "normal" people).

Personally, I've been fiscally responsible for a long time, and I have "some" Mustachian habits, but no one would mistake my lifestyle for Mustachian overall (though very "LBYM FIRE-style"). A good amount of my spending would be considered "face punch worthy" by most "true Mustachians" I'd wager. If I wanted a "textbook" Mustachian lifestyle I'd be FIRE already. I'm okay waiting until my late 40's (6-8 years from now) instead to finance the lifestyle I think I'd rather have however.

What about you?

[Kwill]

"Living below your means"? I thought I'd save others the Google time.

[jlcnuke]

"Living below your means"? I thought I'd save others the Google time.

Yeah, I assumed it was a well known acronym here. I should know better than to make assumptions though (as I'd never think of not spelling it out first in my professional writing), so thanks for pointing it out. :)

[Freedomin5]

I selected “kind of” Mustachian even though we spend less than $30k per year in our HCOL city and don’t have a car. We do spend more on clean food, annual international flights, private preschool, and an ayi, so I can’t say we are 100% Mustachian.

Edited to add: An ayi is a housekeeper/nanny/maid. Basically a household helper.

[GuitarStv]

Where's the option for those of us who think that Mustachianism doesn't go far enough?  :P

[Candace]

There's also an option missing for those of us who are FIRE and so don't have a savings rate.

[jlcnuke]

I selected “kind of” Mustachian even though we spend less than $30k per year in our HCOL city and don’t have a car. We do spend more on clean food, annual international flights, private preschool, and an ayi, so I can’t say we are 100% Mustachian.

I had to look up "ayi" since I wasn't familiar with that term. For anyone else who is unaware, that's apparently a housekeeper in China.

[jlcnuke]

Where's the option for those of us who think that Mustachianism doesn't go far enough?  :P

Just stuck with the first option, gotta use the comments/posting section to explain extra :)

[jlcnuke]

There's also an option missing for those of us who are FIRE and so don't have a savings rate.

Just go with what you were before you retired I'd say... that's where you'd "fit" in this type of poll imo.

[Morning Glory]

I selected "kinda mustachian " too because my pre-mmm decisions, mainly a big house in the country that my husband loves, are keeping our spending between 40-45k. I like the house but I would gladly trade it in for a smaller one to get more time with my kids, and I absolutely hate the high utility bills. I have always been frugal without really trying, but didn't know much about investing and had never heard of the concept of FIRE before discovering the blog/forum, which led to me amassing 70k in a checking account and thinking "might as well buy a bigger house ". I think if I had discovered the blog pre-kids I probably would have ignored it.

[87tweetybirds]

I went with kinda mustachian, we've got a couple of cars(working toward being a single vehicle family, but, o boy, is a second vehicle convenient when one of us has to run errands during the day and the other has to be to work at 6 am, 2 hours before the kid would normally be awake). I've got a bit of a clown car habit, driving in the winter instead of biking even though its very much a bike-able distance. My excuse right now is pregnancy, but even last year when I wasn't I still drove the car to work. The SO has a soda habit, and is a big fan of convenience food instead of cooking at home. But we do save a good chunk of the paycheck, which once we finally get the last of our debt(the house) paid off will be even more, and are always looking at where else to optimize without sacrificing the things we enjoy.

[chaskavitch]

I think if it was just me, I'd be in the "kinda-Mustachian" option.  I'm totally cool biking places, I'm never planning on buying a new car, and I get most of my clothes at thrift shops, etc.  My husband likes to buy new furniture and shop equipment.  Mostly because they're supposed to last longer, which is fair, and also because we still save a LOT of our money so he's comfortable spending the rest.  He also hates cleaning our kitchen, so he'd happily buy most of our meals out, or hire a maid, but I talk him down every few months :)

He does an excellent job of saving money, and looks for sales/lower prices because he knows it makes me happy.  He's also the one with the side hustle and ideas for more ways to make more money.  I'm just super cheap, lol.  Without him I'd probably save a higher percentage of my income, but a MUCH lower dollar value.

[I'm a red panda]

"Living below your means"? I thought I'd save others the Google time.

Thank you! I clicked just to figure out what the heck that was.

Also- I don't recall Pete living in the cheapest house he could find, nor biking everywhere (though he bikes MOST places).  So when did these things become defining of Mustachianism.

My thing with Mustachianism is I don't want to retire early.  But I am financially independent.

I lived below my means my whole life, even before getting into any sort of investments, or specific frugal habits.  I learned "don't spend what you don't have" when I was like 6.

[FIRE Artist]

I am definitely LBYM today, Mustachian for some things, not for others, but I also expect to be more Mustachian post FIRE. 

Today I make decisions to spend more money on some things in return for time.  For example, I only shop at a spendy grocery store because it is on the route home from work.  I try to minimize car trips by maximizing what I do on my daily commute instead of making special trips out on the weekend. When I am FIRE, a grocery store run will likely be a dedicated car trip, so I will therefore choose to go in the other direction to the discount store, I will also have more free time in which to spend time on watching sales.  Being a household of 1, my grocery bill is not a major problem, but definitely something I will want to optimize when FIRE. 

[MrThatsDifferent]

We’re in a weird position as neither of us are consciously mustachian. We just happen to like biking to work, don’t buy a lot of stuff and save more than we spend. But, we live in a HCOL and could live cheaper but won’t. We have cut back on some things but some things we won’t and we eat out/ order in far more than we should. We vacation how we like and spoil ourselves. We’re also fortunate to have great salaries. I’m definitely on the FIRE path, SO doesn’t believe it’s possible.

[Zikoris]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

[Scandium]

"Living below your means"? I thought I'd save others the Google time.

Thank you. Initially guessed "live beyond your means", but that didn't make much sense.

"below" isn't intuitive to me when talking about money, as I don't live underneath my cash. I'd prefer "within" instead.

[netskyblue]

Heh I'm not sure how to answer. I spend < 30k a year but that's because I don't take HOME much more than that.  I don't "spend a lot" because there isn't a lot to spend.

[E.T.]

I picked kind of mustachian. I'm pretty new to the forum and still learning. I think my personality naturally fits the mustachian strategy, but my house and student loans push me over the 30k annual family spending range. Our family grocery spending could be lower too, I'm not mustachian there yet.

[MonkeyJenga]

Where's the option for those of us who think that Mustachianism doesn't go far enough?  :P

I'm writing in "Couchsurfer who thinks houses are embarrassing luxuries."

(I appreciate when said luxuries have spare couches, though.)

[E.T.]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

Just out of curiosity, do you include your housing costs in that 30k? Is it for just you or more than one person?

[Just Joe]

Baby steps. That's what we are doing. We worked past low income, finished our educations, upgraded our careers, worked past DW's discomfort with finance planning and discussion, and our self-education in frugality courtesy of you good folks is mostly complete.

So currently we are LBYM but almost saving one of our incomes per year. Just ran the math. Didn't realize that until now.

We won't FIRE in our 30s or 40s b/c we started later than most on this board. We'll comfortably retire early by a few years. We have jobs that we can live with easily enough.

There is more financial efficiency to be had at our house and we're working on it. Baby steps.

[big_slacker]

In general I'm frugal day to day and do save 20%+ of income. OTOH expensive house (maybe not for the area, haha!) and a few toys that I'm sure some here would frown on.

Don't really need to define myself by someone else's term or feel good or bad about being in an imaginary club, but for sure there is a lot of common ground with folks here on the forum.

[singpolyma]

Canadian, so living on under $40k/year comes to $30k USD -- this with wife and baby

I'm cheating on the income side (massive stock option windfall that vests over next few years) but you can't cheat on the spending side :)

We still have a car and it gets driven more often than I'd like, but my commute is by bike.

[hadabeardonce]

I was interested...

What about you?

I added to the poll, but I'm not really interested.

[neophyte]

Also not sure.  I definitely splurge some places, but I'm also under $30k spending.  I only made $30k for years, so I got used to it.  Spending $20k feels like luxury now!

[PoutineLover]

I bike or transit, don't have a car and don't spend too much, but that's also cause I have a relatively low income, especially compared to people here. Saving about 25% but I still do splurge on a stuff that matters to me like travel, although I do it as cheaply as possible.
For me, it's about living within my means, according to my values, and prioritizing the environment and my future over consumerist culture.

[Zikoris]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

Just out of curiosity, do you include your housing costs in that 30k? Is it for just you or more than one person?

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

[Slow2FIRE]

I'm here for the entertainment value and to learn from others.

I probably would be "mustachian" if I were single.  However, we fit in the save a ton of money and spend a ton of money category since our high incomes allow this.  We are saving around double what we spend, but we spend quite a bit.

[Tabaxus]

I'm definitely in the LBYM camp, but not "Mustachian," especially not after the past couple of years of some lifestyle creep (buying an expensive townhouse and a modest car) plus the fact that I really cannot get on board with some of the views around here re appropriate spending on child costs (re music lessons and things of that nature, which I do view as "necessary" future expenditures for my newborn as long as my cash flow (or potential cash flow) supports it).

[ReadySetMillionaire]

I guess my wife and I are somewhere between "Kinda Mustachian" and LBYM-FIRE style, as they've been defined.

We save about 32% of total income.  I'm still confused how to do the savings rate calculation, but the savings rate percentage is higher when you just factor in take-home pay.

The biggest thing we focus on is maximizing tax-advantaged accounts as much as we are able.  This year we are maxing my wife's 401k, her Roth IRA, my traditional IRA, and our HSA.

In terms of spending, we try to make frugal, rational decisions on the big things.  We live in a relatively small house in a middle class neighborhood, we drive a 2014 Honda CR-V and 2013 Toyota Rav-4, and we don't have any crazy subscriptions.

That said, we still enjoy spending money on things we enjoy.  We've spent quite a bit on fitness equipment the last three years, we have some nice TVs throughout the house, we like doing home renovation projects, and we enjoy eating out about once a week.

Ultimately, our goal is balance, and I think we're on a decent path for that.

[deek]

As far as Non-full on Mustachians being "soft" goes, I think that's a little excessive. I see so many conversations on here about living your best life while being frugal and aiming toward FI. Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Maybe more younger people are finding out about this movement and are on their way to a more Mustachian lifestyle, but are currently just living below their means. Maybe that's why it might seem that there is less of a 100% Mustachian attitude around the site.

But as a 26 year old, I think reading about people's experiences as actual Mustachians does a lot to motivate me and others like me to start creating better habits.

[Free Spirit]

Heh I'm not sure how to answer. I spend < 30k a year but that's because I don't take HOME much more than that.  I don't "spend a lot" because there isn't a lot to spend.

Ha, ditto!

[singpolyma]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Um. Yes. Pretty sure that's the core message of the blog: frugality doesn't mean making yourself unhappy, but rather the opposite.

[I'm a red panda]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Isn't the whole point of being mustachian to make the most out of life?  It's about using your money on the things you value and not on consumerist crap.

I certainly don't recall Pete ever saying anything different.

[Just Joe]

As far as Non-full on Mustachians being "soft" goes, I think that's a little excessive. I see so many conversations on here about living your best life while being frugal and aiming toward FI. Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Maybe more younger people are finding out about this movement and are on their way to a more Mustachian lifestyle, but are currently just living below their means. Maybe that's why it might seem that there is less of a 100% Mustachian attitude around the site.

Might not help the GDP if we were all frugal but the world might be a nicer place for it. People more like my grandparents who were frugal b/c they had to be. They liked to putter around in the flower garden, mow the grass, have friends over to play cards or cookout.

[deek]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Um. Yes. Pretty sure that's the core message of the blog: frugality doesn't mean making yourself unhappy, but rather the opposite.

Maybe that came out wrong. I just think spending money on opportunities to gain awesome experiences (if budgeted for) can sometimes be mistaken for an unfrugal lifestyle if you get what I'm saying. It's tough to find the right verbiage here sometimes.

[deek]

As far as Non-full on Mustachians being "soft" goes, I think that's a little excessive. I see so many conversations on here about living your best life while being frugal and aiming toward FI. Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Maybe more younger people are finding out about this movement and are on their way to a more Mustachian lifestyle, but are currently just living below their means. Maybe that's why it might seem that there is less of a 100% Mustachian attitude around the site.

Might not help the GDP if we were all frugal but the world might be a nicer place for it. People more like my grandparents who were frugal b/c they had to be. They liked to putter around in the flower garden, mow the grass, have friends over to play cards or cookout.

I agree. It really would be. Spendy lifestyles kill relationships in some instances and create personalities that nobody wants to be associated with. It's really too bad. But it's life and it's a result of consumerism being drilled into everybody's' minds from the age of 3.

Quick example, me and my dad love bass fishing together and he used to be a tournament fisherman because he loved fishing and the competition and fishing with friends. He has spent a fair amount of money on this hobby, but the last club tournament he ever fished he got paired up with a guy that literally talked about himself and his toys (truck/house/boat/fishing gear/etc) for like 5 hours straight. He had been frustrated with similar attitudes before that, but said that was the last straw. He gets a lot more satisfaction and happiness from fishing on his small 16 ft boat with me than he ever did fishing among the guys that had 20 footers that cost $20..30..40k.

[JimLahey]

I would put myself in the LBYM category. I recently got a bicycle as a gift from my wife. But it's not practical for me to ride it to work because of distance. That being said, our savings rate is pretty good and neither my wife or I are big spenders naturally. She got a new CRV last year but her old vehicle was going to need some costly repairs. My car is pushing 150K miles and I plan to drive it as long as I can while saving for my next vehicle. One expense we need to work on is eating out. I pack a lunch for work every day and I don't have a designated break (I work in an ER). My wife gets an hour lunch break and tends to go out for lunch with co-workers. I want to start meal prepping to have healthier options for both of us and to save money.

[uwp]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

[Zikoris]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Um. Yes. Pretty sure that's the core message of the blog: frugality doesn't mean making yourself unhappy, but rather the opposite.

Maybe that came out wrong. I just think spending money on opportunities to gain awesome experiences (if budgeted for) can sometimes be mistaken for an unfrugal lifestyle if you get what I'm saying. It's tough to find the right verbiage here sometimes.

And why would spending money on awesome experiences need to result in an unfrugal, anti-mustache lifestyle? Case in point - of our 27K year spending, 1/3 of it goes to extravagant international travel. We do two major trips a year, usually one to Europe and one to Asia, in addition to a bunch of smaller, more local trips. Just last night I finished booking all our accommodations and most of our transportation for our upcoming European summer trip to Brighton, Prague, Berlin, and Amsterdam.

The whole point of this thing is to figure out how to live an awesome life, do all the cool stuff you love, and at the same time keep your spending low.

[Cassie]

Being a baby boomer I have been frugal most of my life and our friends were too.  Now at 63 we are traveling more, eating out more and going to more entertainment then ever before because we have both the time and $.   

[FireHiker]

We are in the LBYM-FIRE category, where we spend a lot but have a reasonable savings rate (40% last year, up from 27% the previous year, thanks to tips and support found here) and will definitely retire early. My husband is much more Boglehead than Mustachian and we live in a HCOL area. We have plenty of room for improvement, but we've already made a lot of big steps since finding MMM so I'm happy with our progress so far and optimistic that we'll make more.

[GuitarStv]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Um. Yes. Pretty sure that's the core message of the blog: frugality doesn't mean making yourself unhappy, but rather the opposite.

Maybe that came out wrong. I just think spending money on opportunities to gain awesome experiences (if budgeted for) can sometimes be mistaken for an unfrugal lifestyle if you get what I'm saying. It's tough to find the right verbiage here sometimes.

Blowing money on anything is 'unfrugal'.

It doesn't matter if you blow it on a nice car, a giant house, a pet cow, travel, or hookers/blow.  You're certainly free to say 'hey, blowing this giant pile of money on this silly shit is what I want to do' .  You're not free to say 'Hey, I'm blowing this giant pile of money on this silly shit, but it's for life experiences, so I don't want anyone to call me on it.  #FRUGAL YOLO'.

[Raenia]

I voted Mustachian, even though I don't bike everywhere.  Together my fiance and I spend about 30k/yr including housing (rent).  Rarely eat out, rarely travel, rarely buy clothes (and always used), <$200/mo for groceries, etc.  I was at about a 50% savings rate (including taxes as expenses) last year.  This year will be a bit lower due to combining finances with my lower-income fiance, and paying for the wedding.  I hope to bring it back up next year, though.

[jlcnuke]

Can you really make the most out of life if you are hardcore Mustachian?

Um. Yes. Pretty sure that's the core message of the blog: frugality doesn't mean making yourself unhappy, but rather the opposite.

Maybe that came out wrong. I just think spending money on opportunities to gain awesome experiences (if budgeted for) can sometimes be mistaken for an unfrugal lifestyle if you get what I'm saying. It's tough to find the right verbiage here sometimes.

And why would spending money on awesome experiences need to result in an unfrugal, anti-mustache lifestyle? Case in point - of our 27K year spending, 1/3 of it goes to extravagant international travel. We do two major trips a year, usually one to Europe and one to Asia, in addition to a bunch of smaller, more local trips. Just last night I finished booking all our accommodations and most of our transportation for our upcoming European summer trip to Brighton, Prague, Berlin, and Amsterdam.

The whole point of this thing is to figure out how to live an awesome life, do all the cool stuff you love, and at the same time keep your spending low.

I think the "do all the cool stuff you love" thing is where there can be a significant change in costs. Sure, if the stuff you love to do is cheap then it's easy to keep your spending low. However, if you enjoy sailing a modern 40 ft yacht, diving the Caribbean, and eating 4-5 star meals, you can keep your spending "lower" and still spend a lot of money. A luxury car enthusiast, for instance, wouldn't enjoy driving a 20 year old Kia and missing out on driving a luxury car for them might be something they aren't willing to compromise in their life, but they might save some money by getting that used $30k BMW instead of the new $150k Aston Martin. Either way though, they're spending quite a bit of money because that's one of the things that makes their life more enjoyable. To other people it may be "just a car", but to them it may be an enjoyable experience they have every day they drive the vehicle. What people enjoy can be cheap or it can be expensive.

[Zikoris]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

I don't fault anyone for not including money they didn't actually spend in their annual expenses. It seems like a pretty pointless exercise, honestly, to figure out how much imaginary money to add into your calculations.

Zikoris, I've really enjoyed reading about your story over the years.  If memory serves, at one point you were in a rent-controlled apartment.  Are you still there?  Do you think rent-controlled housing costs are something the average American can get in a major city?  (I believe there is rent control in NYC, but not sure about the rest of the US) Not rhetorical questions by the way; just interested on your perspective of your own predicament.

We're in a co-op, but in Canada they actually have less rent control than the market - non-existent, really. Co-ops operate under a different set of laws, so while normal rentals are capped at a certain % per year (changes every year, but 3% is common), there is virtually no limit as to how much co-ops can increase. In the recent past, there have been 40%+ increases for some units, for example. This year we're probably looking at 20-25%, which is still manageable, but getting borderline. So I have a pretty good idea how our time here will eventually end - with a massive increase in rent that pushes us to find a cheaper place.

I have no idea what the rental market is like in the US, but it seems to me that it would only make sense to live somewhere like NYC if you had the salary to match the rent. As far as I can tell, there seem to be lots of cities that have reasonable rents.

[deek]

While I've been following the forum more the last couple years, I have seen more snobbery and egotism among "Mustachians" which I don't really understand. They learned how to save more and more, reached their goals, and now generalize people that are in similar situations they once were. Very interesting.

[jlcnuke]

Do you believe the things that you like and enjoy are outside your locus of control?  Kind of sounds like you do.  I believe that we can be born with inclinations, but that those inclinations can be trained and refined and modified.  That the things we like is not an affliction; it's a choice we make every day.

Who cares if it's controllable. If I want to live my life doing the things I enjoy, and they cost money, I'm going to spend money doing them. Sure, I could decide to "not do the things I like and try to find cheaper things to do that I might like" but why? For me, working doesn't suck so bad that I want to give up the things I enjoy simply because they cost money (or more money than some other things).

I can say definitively that I am MORE happy diving in tropical waters than I am playing free poker at the local pool hall. Sure, I'll go play poker still when I'm at home, but I'd much rather be diving in the tropics despite the increased costs associated with that activity.

[I'm a red panda]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

I don't fault anyone for not including money they didn't actually spend in their annual expenses. It seems like a pretty pointless exercise, honestly, to figure out how much imaginary money to add into your calculations.

Seriously. If he has to add in rent he didn't pay; he might need to add in a calculation for all the labor he did himself instead of hiring someone.

I think MMM attributes a lot of things to his business that greatly increase his and his family's quality of life, so it seems more personal- but imputed rent makes no sense to me as part of his spending.

Also, he built a business where he can travel and play with his family and count it as a business expense. Other people could have done that, we just didn't. (I'm pretty on the "blogosphere is maxed out" so I don't know that you still could; but the opportunity was there. I know I seriously regret not monetizing my youtube channel a decade ago.)