Author Topic: Are You a Dream Hoarder?  (Read 5866 times)

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« on: July 11, 2017, 10:23:33 AM »
I'd never really stopped to question whether our family is in the top 20%, but apparently we are.... and, I would imagine, so are many other MMM families.

This interactive game is a pretty simple-but-eye-opening way to introduce others to social mobility.  Obviously, we all want what's best for our kids... but I'll admit that I never really stopped to consider all of the ways that can impact others. Sharing here in case anyone else finds this interesting.

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/are-you-a-dream-hoarder/
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:35:49 AM by startingsmall »

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 511
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 10:43:50 AM »
I'm not convinced that I should stop being a dream hoarder.  Asking me to hobble my children's potential in the name of social equity is a big request.  As for these poor children, in relative terms as long as they have a bigger house than their parents than they are winning.

Extended poverty is a concern in that it leads to increased crime and unsightly streets.  It may be more cost effective to spend money on poverty reduction than incarcerating vast swaths of poor criminals.  Even so, I don't think I will be making the leap this line of thought asks. 

As someone who is just below the upper middle class income threshold... I'm not paying $24 for this book but might get it at the library for free.

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 10:56:07 AM »
I'm not convinced that I should stop being a dream hoarder.  Asking me to hobble my children's potential in the name of social equity is a big request.  As for these poor children, in relative terms as long as they have a bigger house than their parents than they are winning.

Extended poverty is a concern in that it leads to increased crime and unsightly streets.  It may be more cost effective to spend money on poverty reduction than incarcerating vast swaths of poor criminals.  Even so, I don't think I will be making the leap this line of thought asks. 

As someone who is just below the upper middle class income threshold... I'm not paying $24 for this book but might get it at the library for free.

My library doesn't have it (and likely won't.... small library that doesn't get much of a variety of books) and I haven't decided whether to spend the $18 on Amazon.

neverrun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 11:00:28 AM »
I'm 2 out of 3 not a dream hoarder.  But I'm not really.  I favor mixed unit neighborhoods if appropriately planned and am of the opinion if my Kid can't get into my University by themselves due to a low SAT score then maybe they need to rethink their approach to college.  I would totally help them get an internship though. 

Duke03

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 91
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 11:11:25 AM »
I worked my butt off in life to drag myself out of poverty as a child.  I'll be damned if anyone tries to make me feel guilty for helping my children succeed in life.  I look after my family(wife and kids) and myself.  Anyone else will have to fend for themselves just like I had to.  If you don't like it tough kitty.  Life isn't fair butter cup!

Sailor Sam

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5356
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 11:25:27 AM »
I think that 'test' is more virtue signaling, than consciousness raising.

I also give my child the advantage of a violence free home. Perhaps I should randomly kick them in the face, so they don't have an unfair leg up on children from violent homes? Or perhaps, maybe, possibly we should build a society in which no child experiences domestic violence?

Sheesh.

LifeHappens

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
  • Location: SnowBirdLand
  • Downshifting from 5th to 3rd Gear
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 11:31:46 AM »
That book seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Help poor kids by not helping your own kids?! Who is going to go for that argument? I'm as bleeding heart liberal as you can get (and I don't even have kids) but I find that ridiculous.

Wouldn't it resonate with far more people to argue - help your own kids and pitch in for a less fortunate kid along the way?

WhiteTrashCash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 11:43:23 AM »
People in the lower 80% -- especially the lowest 20% where I grew up -- face a lot of problems like not having parents who understand much about personal finance, but shaming people for helping their children is not the answer. In my life, I didn't even understand that I had my own agency, because I was always taught by people in my family and community that my life's results were dictated entirely by luck and circumstance and that nothing I did would make a difference in building a future for myself. That's where we need to focus as a society. We need to teach the poor that they are not helpless and they can be strong and independent.

This means keeping the programs that can help the poor on their way, but also strongly encouraging the poor to develop marketable skills (such as STEM) in a meaningful way which they can use to acquire wealth. We also need to purposefully counteract the negative influences of advertising and the mainstream media which teach the poor that materialism and consumption are the only ways to live.

We also need to get this healthcare situation under control, because millions of poor people are unable to access mental health services, which is preventing them from taking even the first steps toward success. We need to either shore up the ACA in the USA or replace it with some kind of universal healthcare, because right now we are seemingly purposefully trying to increase poverty in the United States.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3282
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 11:50:08 AM »
if my Kid can't get into my University by themselves due to a low SAT score then maybe they need to rethink their approach to college.  I would totally help them get an internship though.
I agree.  Even if a large donation (yeah, right) could get my kid into a prestigious university, he'd be the kid who wasn't really prepared for the rigor of that school ... a recipe for failure.  Why would I set my kid up for that.  But, yeah, if I can speak to a friend and help my kid get a foot-in-the-door for an internship, why wouldn't I?  The website assumes that if I don't do this, the poor kid automatically gets the spot.  We can't know that. 

I worked my butt off in life to drag myself out of poverty as a child.  I'll be damned if anyone tries to make me feel guilty for helping my children succeed in life.  I look after my family(wife and kids) and myself.  Anyone else will have to fend for themselves just like I had to.  If you don't like it tough kitty.  Life isn't fair butter cup!
I could say the same thing.  I'll also add this:  My kids are better people than I am, partially because they didn't have to claw their way out of poverty and don't bear the scars of a difficult childhood.  They are positive assets to society, and I'm not going to feel bad for having provided well for them. 

PoutineLover

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 11:50:21 AM »
I think measures like allowing multi family homes are good, especially since it also coincides with my view that dense neighborhoods with all the necessary amenities and green space within walking distance are the best neighborhoods (and that's difficult to achieve with single family home suburbs). But the effect is wrong because I also think that the quality of school shouldn't depend on the tax revenue of the zip code it's in so that would be something I'd want to change as well. College admissions shouldn't take into account donations or legacy status, only merit, so again, would not take advantage of that. The only caveat is that it still gives higher income kids an advantage if test scores are used so taking into account the effect of privilege on the admissions process to create a more diverse class is acceptable in my mind.
However, personal connections are the best way to get jobs and I would not feel bad about using those to help my kid at all, as long as I thought the recommendation would reflect positively on me, as I'd consider for anyone I'd recommend. I strongly believe in networking and I think that teaching kids how to do that effectively is important, especially for people without built in networks though their families.
I think the framing of this as a zero sum game is not quite accurate (although yes, moving in and out of quintiles means someone else has to as well) because we can also change the rules to level the playing field and thus expand the whole pie so more kids overall get access to quality education and more opportunities without taking away from anyone else.
These also seem like problems that don't exist in the same way here in Canada. Unless you live on a reserve, you are likely to have access to quality schools in any neighborhood, and the university I attended only looked at high school averages, nothing else. We have problems too, but I think as a society we have better economic mobility and it's a direct result of our laws and policies.

dreams_and_discoveries

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2017, 11:53:31 AM »
I agree that people use far too much privilege to give their kids a leg up, and I'm personally in favour of a meritocracy.

In my utopian ideal world, all kids would have an equal start and equal opportunities to progress.

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2017, 11:55:03 AM »

This means keeping the programs that can help the poor on their way, but also strongly encouraging the poor to develop marketable skills (such as STEM) in a meaningful way which they can use to acquire wealth. We also need to purposefully counteract the negative influences of advertising and the mainstream media which teach the poor that materialism and consumption are the only ways to live.
I agree with you but wish to discuss this more. If you get blocked access to a university because a legacy takes the place, how does that help the poor acquire a STEM degree? There are finite spots, there's always applicants turned away. Every single Legacy admission is turning away a more deserving applicant, some off them will be poor admissions that studied and worked harder already.

You can tell the poor to develop marketable skills, I also advocate leveling the field so that all people (regardless of class at birth) have an equal shot.

Virtus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 210
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2017, 11:55:45 AM »
This philosophy is so flawed its not even funny. It makes assumptions like, there are only X number of slots in good schools, if your kid gets one another kid does not. That shows a lack of understanding of how the system works. When a good school gets many more qualified applications than they can accept they increase the number of students they serve (build new buildings, hire more teachers) and new high quality universities are created by entrepreneurs because there is enough demand.

They also assume the wealth of the parents is what gives the kids an advantage. This assumes causation not correlation. It could be wealth does not give a persons kids any real advantage, rather the advantage is created by a stable positive home environment and the type of people who work hard to provide that environment tend to work hard at a job and make a lot of money.

This argument is like saying if you go to college your kids are more likely to succeed because they are more likely to go to college. Is that really the case or is it people who value education usually prompt their kids to go to college and education helps people succeed. As to the correlation with parents who hold a college degree, its a forthcoming conclusion that people who spent four year going to college obviously value the education or they would not have spent the timing getting it.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3282
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2017, 12:11:07 PM »
Every single Legacy admission is turning away a more deserving applicant, some off them will be poor admissions that studied and worked harder already.
How do you know that the Legacy admission wasn't equally qualified to the poor, deserving applicant?  They may BOTH have been highly qualified.

And the issue wasn't getting a spot in a college somewhere ... it was getting into this prestigious school.  The poor, deserving applicant is going to be accepted SOMEWHERE, just not this particular school.  As a teacher of high school seniors, I see our mediocre students turned down by 4-year schools, but I never see a student with a strong academic record rejected by every school

Virtus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 210
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2017, 12:19:41 PM »
...I also advocate leveling the field so that all people (regardless of class at birth) have an equal shot.

This is a funny statement. It could only have one of two meanings.

1. Those with advantageous need to be pushed down to the lowest denominator. We should punish parents who read to their kids or provide their children with wisdom. We should make it illegal for parent to travel with their kids, provide their kids with classes like piano, provide their children with books, feed and cloth their children well, and pay for tutors.

Or

2. Those with disadvantages need to be pushed up. The problem with this is it is not something the government can do, but rather it can only be done by the parents. And thus, the best we can do as a society is provide all individuals with as much freedom as possible so they can purse what is in their own and their child's best interests.

fruitfly

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 78
  • Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 12:31:20 PM »
The game is pretty heavy handed and oversimplified but I get where they are going. I'm interested in reading the book (I'm #47 on reserve at the library).

I have seen this play out over the last couple of years at my kids' public school. The parents who are more able to be invested in time, money, energy, facetime, etc., are able to make changes that benefit their own kids. The idea of thinking about other kids in the classes and their specific needs is secondary - the parents assume that if they make improvements to benefit their own kids it automatically improves things for other kids. Or maybe they don't really care about other kids, I don't know.

I spent this year in the PTA trying to think more globally about what benefits the kids whose parents couldn't, say, make the Friday 9am Principal's meeting (SPOILER: THOSE OF US WITH JOBS). It was not something anyone wanted to think or talk about, I assure you. I was so popular!

But you know, my kids will be fine in their lives - they are middle class white kids without significant disabilities from a stable, loving home. They have everything they will ever need (and most of what they want). So they don't really NEED me to be advocating for them all the time - I can use the time and energy I have to give to the school/community to try and raise up other kids (who don't have their advantages). It doesn't TAKE anything from them. They have enough, and enough is plenty.

trashmanz

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 12:43:55 PM »
I definitely have mixed feelings on this, but I suppose its good to have the conversation at least.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1407
  • Location: MA
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »
Quote
I think that 'test' is more virtue signaling, than consciousness raising.

Agreed.  This is really dumb honestly and way overly simplistic.  It also makes a lot of assumptions.  I am not a “fixed pie” believer.  I don’t think that limiting opportunity from one person frees up opportunity for someone else. 

neverrun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 01:37:03 PM »

This means keeping the programs that can help the poor on their way, but also strongly encouraging the poor to develop marketable skills (such as STEM) in a meaningful way which they can use to acquire wealth. We also need to purposefully counteract the negative influences of advertising and the mainstream media which teach the poor that materialism and consumption are the only ways to live.
I agree with you but wish to discuss this more. If you get blocked access to a university because a legacy takes the place, how does that help the poor acquire a STEM degree? There are finite spots, there's always applicants turned away. Every single Legacy admission is turning away a more deserving applicant, some off them will be poor admissions that studied and worked harder already.

You can tell the poor to develop marketable skills, I also advocate leveling the field so that all people (regardless of class at birth) have an equal shot.

I in part got into my University because I was from a Midwestern State VS. being from NY, NJ or CA.  I was going to one of those schools that "build a diverse class."  I don't feel I didn't deserve to be there, I did; but I know one of my advantages was being from a state that sent 16 incoming freshman vs. 300.

jeninco

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 206
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 02:36:14 PM »
OK, this really riles me up.

1. Assuming that life is a zero-sum game (as this game does) is just stupid. Also, it's the exact kind of "just stupid" that our local school of education teaches, and that some of our teachers have been learning in their "professional training".

So, real story, my 13-year-old's middle school LA (Language Arts, AKA reading and writing) teachers bought into this bs last year and decided to eliminate all leveled classes. Which, maybe is OK if the teachers are excellent, but at least one of them ballistically sucked. Like, the kids had 5 graded writing assignments in the first 13 weeks of school, and parents who asked questions about this got a response of "you're a bunch of racist, elitist bigots." The teacher had the heavily-muscled assistant principal attend his back-to-school evening presentations to present a visual threat to the parents. Kids who themselves asked for more feedback from him were pooh-poohed, and when I contacted him two nights before a 5-week research project was due to ask where I could find the rubric (AKA grading expectations, for those of you who don't do ed-speak) for the paper he (1) told me that it didn't exist yet, that the students were developing it, (because 13-year-olds who can't write are exactly who should be developing the standards and expectations for their first research paper) and (2) then mocked me in front of my kid's class for asking.

Having teachers believe that opportunity is a zero-sum game is horrible, in my experience, because it means they'll deliberately ignore (or insult) the "privileged" (white male) students in order to push them back while trying to bring everyone else up. Guess how well that works in middle school? Leads to greater comeraderie and understanding? Feeling of solidarity among the students? Actual learning? Disadvantaged students wanting to stick up their heads and speak up, after they've watched their classmates be shamed and insulted?

2. The game is a heavy-handed POS. Really, Brookings? Even if I make the "right" choice you threaten me with dire-sounding consequences?

I've open-enrolled my kids twice to get them into schools where most teacher believe that every student should see a year's work of academic growth in a year. (No exaggeration -- I once asked a 7th grade science teacher "so, how would you extend this material for kids who already know a bunch of it?" Response: "I don't have to do that." Result: My kids are not attending that school, you twit.)

I've also spent the last 13+ years advocating for kids who don't have parents able to attend PTO meetings and programatic planning committees. I've volunteered both during-school and before-and-after-school helping kids at all levels with math skills. Sometimes I get groups that include my kids, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I wind up taking the advanced kids off someplace else, which frees the teacher to help the kids who are struggling without the classroom management nightmare of handling a bunch of bored, squirmy (mostly) boys. Sometimes I get the struggling students. Now I also tutor math in our High School.

No, I'm not going to get my kid a legacy spot at my Alma Mater if he can't get in on his own. Yes, I'll introduce him to adults who might be able to mentor him. I will also do that for any other kid I know who could use that help, and I'll recommend students to my college if I think they'd be a good fit.

As SS said, way back, should I start beating my kids so kids from abusive homes aren't disadvantaged? How about we actually work to create a world where no kids are beaten? And where the educational system works for more children? And where there are more opportunities of all kinds for everyone?

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2017, 02:36:38 PM »
I definitely have mixed feelings on this, but I suppose its good to have the conversation at least.

That's exactly why I shared it. I am apparently 2/3 'Dream Hoarder.' I definitely don't view myself in that way and consider myself very liberal, but the quiz did prompt me to give it some more thought and poke around the rest of the website.

Obviously the game is oversimplified and exaggerated, but I think it provokes an interesting conversation... both in terms of internal 'dialogue' and discussion with others.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:43:50 PM by startingsmall »

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2017, 02:49:05 PM »
Every single Legacy admission is turning away a more deserving applicant, some off them will be poor admissions that studied and worked harder already.
How do you know that the Legacy admission wasn't equally qualified to the poor, deserving applicant?  They may BOTH have been highly qualified.

And the issue wasn't getting a spot in a college somewhere ... it was getting into this prestigious school.  The poor, deserving applicant is going to be accepted SOMEWHERE, just not this particular school.  As a teacher of high school seniors, I see our mediocre students turned down by 4-year schools, but I never see a student with a strong academic record rejected by every school.
Because it wouldn't be a legacy admission...it would be a regular admission. In the case of two highly qualified applicants, the most qualified gets in.

Try being on the losing end of admissions to a classmate with lower grades.

BlueHouse

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2496
  • Location: WDC
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2017, 02:53:41 PM »
I agree that people use far too much privilege to give their kids a leg up, and I'm personally in favour of a meritocracy.

In my utopian ideal world, all kids would have an equal start and equal opportunities to progress.
This reminds me of something an ex-BF said to me.  He was a communist when he was younger.  "When you're poor, everyone's a communist". 
I agree with you, it would be nice to have a level playing field.  After all, children don't ask to be born into poor, disadvantaged homes.  But basic biology and the will to make your own genes succeed makes this dream almost impossible to realize in real life.  Once people have kids, they become completely selfish -- no judgement intended.  It's a biological response. 
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

kaizen soze

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 65
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 02:57:35 PM »
That gameplay is severely lacking. I want to jump over something. I want to rack up gold points.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE using Tapatalk


Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 02:58:01 PM »
...I also advocate leveling the field so that all people (regardless of class at birth) have an equal shot.

This is a funny statement. It could only have one of two meanings.

1. Those with advantageous need to be pushed down to the lowest denominator. We should punish parents who read to their kids or provide their children with wisdom. We should make it illegal for parent to travel with their kids, provide their kids with classes like piano, provide their children with books, feed and cloth their children well, and pay for tutors.

Or

2. Those with disadvantages need to be pushed up. The problem with this is it is not something the government can do, but rather it can only be done by the parents. And thus, the best we can do as a society is provide all individuals with as much freedom as possible so they can purse what is in their own and their child's best interests.
3. remove programs that limit access based on birth rights, Just leave the whole space empty.

I'm all for equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. Everyone gets the same shot and is judged by their own merits, not their parents, not their grandparents. It doesn't mean anyone gets "pushed" down or dragged up. It means a fair evaluation of the individual without regard to parents, class, or status. Basically, you earn your spot. 

In some cases upper class kids are the ones being given advantages at the age of 18 (low SAT score Legacy). What makes you think only poor people are getting advantages under the current system? Do away with it and let people have the freedom to succeed, without limits.

ixtap

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 03:07:21 PM »
I'm not convinced that I should stop being a dream hoarder.  Asking me to hobble my children's potential in the name of social equity is a big request.  As for these poor children, in relative terms as long as they have a bigger house than their parents than they are winning.

Extended poverty is a concern in that it leads to increased crime and unsightly streets.  It may be more cost effective to spend money on poverty reduction than incarcerating vast swaths of poor criminals.  Even so, I don't think I will be making the leap this line of thought asks. 

As someone who is just below the upper middle class income threshold... I'm not paying $24 for this book but might get it at the library for free.

My library doesn't have it (and likely won't.... small library that doesn't get much of a variety of books) and I haven't decided whether to spend the $18 on Amazon.

You can always ask them to order it. Depending on funding, they might say no, but you can always ask.

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 03:16:51 PM »
if my Kid can't get into my University by themselves due to a low SAT score then maybe they need to rethink their approach to college.  I would totally help them get an internship though.
I agree.  Even if a large donation (yeah, right) could get my kid into a prestigious university, he'd be the kid who wasn't really prepared for the rigor of that school ... a recipe for failure.  Why would I set my kid up for that.  But, yeah, if I can speak to a friend and help my kid get a foot-in-the-door for an internship, why wouldn't I?  The website assumes that if I don't do this, the poor kid automatically gets the spot.  We can't know that. 



While I agree this is what the game says, I think there is some obvious hyperbole here. The point, in my opinion, is to think about what a big difference these little sorts of things can make.

A personal example: I technically came from an upper-middle-class family. When my parents were married, they were well-off. When my parents divorced, my dad stayed well-off.... and because he gave my mom a pretty good bit of child support, my brother and I were raised in a nice house, had nice clothes, etc. So, by many measures you could argue that I'm pretty privileged.

On the other hand, neither of my parents attended college. My dad managed an auto dealership, so he wasn't really in a position to provide me with professional connections in any field that was of interest to me. My mom remained chronically unemployed after their divorce and dated a series of drug addicts, so not a lot of connections there either. It's only recently that I began to realize some of the more subtle effects that my upbringing may have had on my education and early adulthood..... I always viewed myself as very advantaged due to my dad's wealth (and I would still argue that I was), but when I went off to college it never occurred to me do things like join clubs and play sports and do internships and things like that, because my parents always assumed that college attendance was a great thing in and of itself that would open all doors. The thought of spending the money to go to a Ivy League college was viewed as absurd, things like studying abroad/etc. were a waste of money, and I worked retail jobs every summer to pay for gas/car insurance/etc instead of looking for internships. Just a few examples. Those things that didn't get in the way of my success and my life definitely turned out fine, but I sometimes wonder how my experience would have differed if my parents background had been different.

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 03:18:16 PM »
I'm not convinced that I should stop being a dream hoarder.  Asking me to hobble my children's potential in the name of social equity is a big request.  As for these poor children, in relative terms as long as they have a bigger house than their parents than they are winning.

Extended poverty is a concern in that it leads to increased crime and unsightly streets.  It may be more cost effective to spend money on poverty reduction than incarcerating vast swaths of poor criminals.  Even so, I don't think I will be making the leap this line of thought asks. 

As someone who is just below the upper middle class income threshold... I'm not paying $24 for this book but might get it at the library for free.

My library doesn't have it (and likely won't.... small library that doesn't get much of a variety of books) and I haven't decided whether to spend the $18 on Amazon.

You can always ask them to order it. Depending on funding, they might say no, but you can always ask.

Yeah. We recently moved and I don't yet have a library card, but it may be worth a try. I've tried searching for a number of nonfiction titles, though, with no luck... I think our library traffics primarily in Stephen King and John Grisham type stuff. (Small town in the south with a relatively uneducated population.)

ixtap

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2017, 03:26:10 PM »

Yeah. We recently moved and I don't yet have a library card, but it may be worth a try. I've tried searching for a number of nonfiction titles, though, with no luck... I think our library traffics primarily in Stephen King and John Grisham type stuff. (Small town in the south with a relatively uneducated population.)

You never know, you might have a librarian who is just looking for some direction to build the non-fiction collection. You may even be able to help with grant writing to get funds for such things.

if not, ask about the inter library loan program.

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2017, 03:29:52 PM »

Yeah. We recently moved and I don't yet have a library card, but it may be worth a try. I've tried searching for a number of nonfiction titles, though, with no luck... I think our library traffics primarily in Stephen King and John Grisham type stuff. (Small town in the south with a relatively uneducated population.)

You never know, you might have a librarian who is just looking for some direction to build the non-fiction collection. You may even be able to help with grant writing to get funds for such things.

if not, ask about the inter library loan program.

So true. Thanks for the kick in the butt - I've been spending too much on books lately and need to start using the library! 

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3833
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2017, 03:39:16 PM »
One thing he does bring up which is a good point is separating the "middle class" into "upper middle class."

I even see that here in the "do you feel wealthy?" types of threads where nearly no one thinks they are wealthy and have defined that as "not having to work."

Though, watching a video of his he says that of people born in the bottom 20% of wealth, 1/10 make it to the top 20% and only 1/3 stay in the bottom 20%. That seems... impressively good, actually, on the whole and considerably better than I would have thought.

The most interesting part he addresses is how lower your chances are based on different circumstances (particularly familial). A child does not really get a choice if raised by a single parent, but that has a significant effect on statistical social mobility.


CheapScholar

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Location: The Midwest
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2017, 04:48:36 PM »
Stupidest thing I've ever seen.  I suppose if I enrolled my kid in SAT prep courses and took him on culturally enriching vacations I'm a dream hoarder.  Hell, I should deprive him of nutrients and sleep so the 80% can kick his ass in life.

I grew up FAR from the "First Fifth" but now I'm easily in that category.  I took chances and worked hard and I'll provide every advantage for my kid despite what Brookings thinks. 

MMMarbleheader

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 96
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2017, 05:11:42 PM »
I would love more multi families in my town. so I can try and buy them.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3833
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2017, 05:13:11 PM »
I would love more multi families in my town. so I can try and buy them.

That was actually my reaction too when I saw that ;-)


marble_faun

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 163
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2017, 05:32:15 PM »
Huh. This seemed a little silly.

The quiz treats inequality as something you can change by not helping your kid get an internship or something like that -- when instead we need things like universal health care and a more even-handed policy for funding education.

Also... the quiz seems to treat being in "the 80%" as equivalent to "poor."  So let's say I'm in the top 20% and I deny opportunities to my kid.  Then maybe someone from the top 30% gets those opportunities instead. This counts as major social progress?
"Time flies pursue it Man. For why? thy days are but a Span."

Virtus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 210
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2017, 05:36:38 PM »
Huh. This seemed a little silly.

The quiz treats inequality as something you can change by not helping your kid get an internship or something like that -- when instead we need things like universal health care and a more even-handed policy for funding education.

Also... the quiz seems to treat being in "the 80%" as equivalent to "poor."  So let's say I'm in the top 20% and I deny opportunities to my kid.  Then maybe someone from the top 30% gets those opportunities instead. This counts as major social progress?

Interesting how you think we should have universal health care but think poor people should pay more for education...

Our current education system (at least universities) is not at all even-handed, it shifts the cost disproportionately to wealthy students through the FAFSA and need based scholarships.   

marble_faun

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 163
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2017, 06:31:22 PM »
Huh. This seemed a little silly.

The quiz treats inequality as something you can change by not helping your kid get an internship or something like that -- when instead we need things like universal health care and a more even-handed policy for funding education.

Also... the quiz seems to treat being in "the 80%" as equivalent to "poor."  So let's say I'm in the top 20% and I deny opportunities to my kid.  Then maybe someone from the top 30% gets those opportunities instead. This counts as major social progress?

Interesting how you think we should have universal health care but think poor people should pay more for education...

Our current education system (at least universities) is not at all even-handed, it shifts the cost disproportionately to wealthy students through the FAFSA and need based scholarships.

I was referring to how public schools are funded by property taxes.  Why should a kid get a sub-par education just because the buildings in his or her neighborhood generate less tax revenue?  There's got to be a better way.

College costs way more than it needs to cost, as a general rule.
"Time flies pursue it Man. For why? thy days are but a Span."

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2017, 08:19:35 AM »
Stupidest thing I've ever seen.  I suppose if I enrolled my kid in SAT prep courses and took him on culturally enriching vacations I'm a dream hoarder.  Hell, I should deprive him of nutrients and sleep so the 80% can kick his ass in life.

I grew up FAR from the "First Fifth" but now I'm easily in that category.  I took chances and worked hard and I'll provide every advantage for my kid despite what Brookings thinks.
You might be misunderstanding. Please continue with all those activities. The dream hoarder would skip those, make a large university donation instead and get their kid in. The difference being that in your kid the child has the innate skills whereas the second case, the kid uses their position (class) to get ahead.

Skills are good. Blatant buying because your kid lacks skills, much harder to defend.

PoutineLover

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2017, 08:29:03 AM »
Huh. This seemed a little silly.

The quiz treats inequality as something you can change by not helping your kid get an internship or something like that -- when instead we need things like universal health care and a more even-handed policy for funding education.

Also... the quiz seems to treat being in "the 80%" as equivalent to "poor."  So let's say I'm in the top 20% and I deny opportunities to my kid.  Then maybe someone from the top 30% gets those opportunities instead. This counts as major social progress?

Interesting how you think we should have universal health care but think poor people should pay more for education...

Our current education system (at least universities) is not at all even-handed, it shifts the cost disproportionately to wealthy students through the FAFSA and need based scholarships.

I was referring to how public schools are funded by property taxes.  Why should a kid get a sub-par education just because the buildings in his or her neighborhood generate less tax revenue?  There's got to be a better way.

College costs way more than it needs to cost, as a general rule.
There is a better way. Canada has much better class mobility than the US, in part because we don't have that kind of stupid funding model. And our universities are way cheaper for similar quality education. The american way makes no sense to me.

Louisville

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2017, 08:38:09 AM »
Is this crap on the Brookings Institute website? I knew it was a liberal organization (like me), but I thought it was respectable/common sense.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3833
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2017, 08:48:40 AM »
Is this crap on the Brookings Institute website? I knew it was a liberal organization (like me), but I thought it was respectable/common sense.

It's pretty standard hyperbole imo.

If you look into what they are saying, the details are reasonable observations. It's the way they are presented that make them look so foolish (but I guess get people talking about them? so... maybe bad publicity is better than no publicity?).

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3282
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »
Interesting how you think we should have universal health care but think poor people should pay more for education...
I was a poor kid, and I am tremendously grateful that I live in America, where every kid has the opportunity for a no-direct-cost basic education.  I knew in high school that this was the very best thing for me. 

However, as a teacher today, I think families should have to pay for a couple things in the public school system -- and these are things you wouldn't see unless you're "in the system": 

- I don't think we, the public, should pay for kids to repeat classes.  When I was a new teacher I taught a 9th grade basic core class, and we had a small percentage of kids who just didn't do anything -- so they ended up repeating the class.  The worst I saw was a kid who repeated the class five times.  He didn't attend, behaved badly and was suspended frequently, and just did no work.  He flip-flopped among three teachers, and his work ethic didn't vary.  He told us things like "You're not allowed to fail me because I've already failed this class once" ... "This is my third time in this class, I pass no matter what" ... "Everyone automatically passes summer school".  Yeah, uh, no.  Admittedly, few kids do this, but I don't think students of this caliber should be allowed to repeatedly take seats in the same class year after year.  Mr. 9th-grade Remedial Math Five Times was extreme, but I've known too many kids who sit through the same class three times -- and we're not talking about AP Physics.  I think the public should pay for kids' basic education, but if they throw away Chance #1, the student /family should bear the cost of repeating the class. 

- Textbooks are expensive (high school books are typically $75-125/copy), and kids who "hoard them" should have to pay.  I teach seniors, and this is a common situation:  For whatever reason, the student doesn't turn in any of his freshman books, forgets his sophomore Geometry book and Spanish book, doesn't turn in his Chemistry book and English book as a junior.  So the kid has literally a thousand dollars worth of school-owned textbooks shoved under his bed, and he's just being lazy and isn't digging them out.  We keep records of what he hasn't turned in, and we ask for the books every year -- but we can't push the issue 'til he's a senior.  When he's a second semester senior, he finally realizes, he is not going to be able to attend graduation unless he pays the $1000 or so he owes in missing books.  So his mom finally gets upset, makes him crawl under the bed or dig through the closet ... he brings the books into school (or maybe mom does), and his record is wiped clean.  However, we have not had use of those books for several years!  In the meantime, we've been forced to spend our limited resources to replace books ... all because he just didn't care until push came to shove.  Students who don't turn books in on time should have to pay for them. 

Related subject:  Two of my teacher-friends work at a nearby college's bookstore "seasonally" (meaning they work the first /last couple weeks of the college semester helping with textbooks.  They say that only about 1/3 of the students who rent books manage to return them on time ... so their (or their parents') credit card is automatically charged full price for the books. 

Anyway, I strongly believe in providing a no-direct-cost education to every child, but I also think that people should bear financial responsibility for their own irresponsibility. 

« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 10:23:35 AM by MrsPete »

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3833
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2017, 10:45:26 AM »
Students who don't turn books in on time should have to pay for them. 

This seems easy to resolve, any student who does not return or pay for books cannot receive new textbooks the next year.

startingsmall

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2017, 10:48:14 AM »
Is this crap on the Brookings Institute website? I knew it was a liberal organization (like me), but I thought it was respectable/common sense.

It's pretty standard hyperbole imo.

If you look into what they are saying, the details are reasonable observations. It's the way they are presented that make them look so foolish (but I guess get people talking about them? so... maybe bad publicity is better than no publicity?).

Exactly. I don't think anyone (including me, who initially started this post) expects the 'game' to be taken literally. It's clearly hyperbole... and my initial response was to immediately become defensive and say "I am NOT a dream hoarder, WTF?!" But, in that moment after anger, there was a quieter "....am I?" The response that comes after the anger and the defensiveness is where (in my mind) curiosity and learning can happen. But, at the same time, I can see how some folks might not ever get there.

Aelias

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2017, 11:09:12 AM »
if my Kid can't get into my University by themselves due to a low SAT score then maybe they need to rethink their approach to college.  I would totally help them get an internship though.
I agree.  Even if a large donation (yeah, right) could get my kid into a prestigious university, he'd be the kid who wasn't really prepared for the rigor of that school ... a recipe for failure.  Why would I set my kid up for that.  But, yeah, if I can speak to a friend and help my kid get a foot-in-the-door for an internship, why wouldn't I?  The website assumes that if I don't do this, the poor kid automatically gets the spot.  We can't know that. 


This is where I drew the line as well.  And, if they had put the donation and the legacy piece in different questions, I would have said yes to acknowledging the legacy but no to the donation.  I also said yes to helping with the internship.

However, our area is grappling right now with the effects of gentrification and is rapidly changing from a working class to upper middle class. My city representative has made affordable housing his primary issue.  I support him whole heartedly.

I feel like the most constructive way to use this info is not as shaming for trying to give your kids the best start in life, it's to acknowledge the role these choices play in perpetuating inequality of opportunity. And, as many here have suggested, the solution is not to hamstring your own offspring, it's to push for policies that elevate the less privileged.  ALL kids should have access to safe homes and neighborhoods, good nutrition, healthcare, and good education.  Full stop.

Mr. Green

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
  • Age: 34
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2017, 11:54:30 AM »
Played the game for kicks. Hilarious! All I could think of was the people in Atlas Shrugged claiming it was selfish to make a profit.
FIRE, Take Two.

cloudsail

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 221
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2017, 12:00:49 PM »
Played the game for kicks. Hilarious! All I could think of was the people in Atlas Shrugged claiming it was selfish to make a profit.

Haha, I also was thinking about Ayn Rand while playing the game.

dbm

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2017, 09:21:33 PM »
I would love more multi families in my town. so I can try and buy them.

That was actually my reaction too when I saw that ;-)

I couldn't get past this question.  I have two rental properties that are near good transport, decent schools, but one lacks what buyers want, trendy cafes, restaurants, etc (because that's what people want in Melbourne), and I think that well built apartment buildings would increase the demand for these services and if supply of these increases, it will increase the value of the whole suburb.  But the local government has a habit of approving crappily built apartments.  So would I vote to increase high density living in that suburb, hmm, probably not with the current local council.  The other rental area seems to approve decent quality high quality buildings, so even though it won't hinder or help me, I would be happy for them to have more built.

Such black and white questions with so many variables to consider...

No wonder I failed the unfailable optimism test at a previous job due to wanting know the variables!

But yes, good area, good services, I would consider buying more rentals...



MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3282
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2017, 07:42:32 AM »
Students who don't turn books in on time should have to pay for them. 

This seems easy to resolve, any student who does not return or pay for books cannot receive new textbooks the next year.
Sounds like common sense, but it is not allowed.  The kid is entitled to a free public education, which includes textbooks.  If he never returns the books at all, we still have to give him his diploma -- all we're allowed to do is forbid him from attending the graduation ceremony. 

Oh, and if the kid doesn't make it to graduation, we never get the books back at all.  It's poor management of the public coffers, but the legislators in the state capital have tied our hands. 

And, in all honesty, we're talking about a small-but-persistent group of students.  This is not widespread behavior. 

vivian

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Are You a Dream Hoarder?
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2017, 09:11:48 AM »
The game is simplistic and overstated, but the point is a good. Many people who say they want equality of opportunity, actually live their lives in ways that perpetuate the inequality. I'll give another example that is in the dream hoarder book, but not this quiz. School fundraising. Schools in upper middle class neighborhoods tend to have well funded PTOs that raise a lot of money for their school. The PTO in the lower income neighborhood across town can't raise the same amount of money because the parent population doesn't have the same resources to donate or find business partners, etc.

The parents mean well, just looking out to ensure their kid's school has the resources to provide a high quality education. But the result is an unequal level of resources to schools across income groups.

What is the solution? I see at least two. One, instead of a PTO spending its time raising money for one school, how about lobby the district/state for more funding for all schools? Two, schools in higher and lower income areas combine fundraising efforts and then split the proceeds. Everyone wins if you widen the definition of "our kids" beyond those who live in your house or your friends house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk