Author Topic: Are you a coward?  (Read 31097 times)


mathlete

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2016, 09:30:22 AM »
You may be talented at math, but evaluating your success at such a project is not really a math problem...I think you are analysing it incorrectly when you look at it as a statistical problem.

Couldn't disagree more. Evaluating the probability of success is inherently a math problem. You say I'm wrong for looking at this like a stats problem, but you did this yourself in the OP didn't you?

Below is an excerpt from the OP. I've underlined words that relate to probability theory or expectation. I've bolded words that are conditions or events in a probability of success function that I believe you've implicitly defined.

Quote
But what we also know is that it's not really necessary to toil away for 7-10 years in order to become a millionaire. I can think of plenty of methods with a reasonable (but uncertain) probability of earning multiple millions of dollars in a far shorter time frame (say, less than a year). I'm sure you can think of some of those methods too. One of the most obvious methods is to build some sort of computer game. We know that plenty of people are willing to churn out high calibre work for very little compensation, so it really shouldn't be hard to assemble a team consisting of an artist, musician, engineer, and project manager and whip up a relatively successful game. By my estimates, it's possible to build a game that grosses $5,000,000 with a mere $50,000 investment.

I don't think anybody seriously disputes that there are plenty of very fast ways to become relatively wealthy, although we might dispute the exact probabilities involved. (I'd say the probability of the game working out is probably a tad over 50%, but who knows.) Realistically, the expected values almost certainly work out in favour of any of a number of business schemes rather than just toiling away as a slave.

I can really think of only one reason why we choose to work for 7-10 years rather than just 1-3 years.



I'm also not sure what the point of your two specific examples are.

I picked those two because they're both incredibly successful in the realm of independent game developers. They are two incredibly talented guys who became modest millionaires after years upon years of toiling.

Even the most successful guys within the realm of what you considered the "One of the most obvious" paths to riches that didn't involve "toiling away for 7-10 years"... toiled away for that long or longer.

I'm more than willing to move off of the video game example.

Deciding what path you want to take to financial security is a risk management problem. The cowardice claim only makes sense if you're dramatically underestimating the time and effort required to make it without working for the man, or you're dramatically inflating the probability of success.

IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE, READ THIS;

My main point of contention is that I fundamentally disagree with this statement:

Quote
Realistically, the expected values almost certainly work out in favour of any of a number of business schemes rather than just toiling away as a slave.

arebelspy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2016, 09:47:03 AM »
My main point of contention is that I fundamentally disagree with this statement:

Quote
Realistically, the expected values almost certainly work out in favour of any of a number of business schemes rather than just toiling away as a slave.

Hmm.  At first I agreed with you.  Now I'm second guessing.

It depends on how efficient you think things are.

I think a clever individual may be able to exploit inefficiencies in the markets (I don't mean stock markets, but the economy in general) to earn more, faster, than they would otherwise.

I think other people would fail miserably, and their odds of success are much better as an employee for someone else.

It very much depends on one's proclivities and talents (not to mention desire--not going the entrepreneur route doesn't have to be from cowardice, but could be from lack of drive, wanting to have better work-life balance, wanting to do a job they enjoy which isn't feasible to do solo, or any other number of reasons).
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mathlete

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2016, 09:55:12 AM »
My main point of contention is that I fundamentally disagree with this statement:

Quote
Realistically, the expected values almost certainly work out in favour of any of a number of business schemes rather than just toiling away as a slave.

Hmm.  At first I agreed with you.  Now I'm second guessing.

It depends on how efficient you think things are.

I think a clever individual may be able to exploit inefficiencies in the markets (I don't mean stock markets, but the economy in general) to earn more, faster, than they would otherwise.

I think other people would fail miserably, and their odds of success are much better as an employee for someone else.

It very much depends on one's proclivities and talents (not to mention desire--not going the entrepreneur route doesn't have to be from cowardice, but could be from lack of drive, wanting to have better work-life balance, wanting to do a job they enjoy which isn't feasible to do solo, or any other number of reasons).

I agree that there are tons of inefficiencies. Identifying an inefficiency in a market at large and then creating and selling a correction is very difficult in my opinion. Even for clever people.

On the other hand, put a clever and motivated person at a cubicle desk for 8 hours a day and they'll identify and correct inefficiencies all day long. In my opinion, this is a pretty easy path to financial security with a high probability of success.

Of course ownership takes a lot bigger share of your corrected inefficiencies than you do, which is inherently the problem Cathy sees I think.

Maybe I'm a coward for not asking for a raise every time I make a process better?

Cpa Cat

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2016, 09:57:24 AM »
Once upon a time, I wondered why everyone didn't want to be self-employed. Why would I work for $25-$40 per hour at a CPA firm when I could start my own firm and realize $50-$200/hour on my work, and have the benefit of a better schedule, better clients, and better working conditions? Why doesn't everyone become self employed??

But now that I specialize in small business clients, I realize that the vast majority of people are very bad business-people.

One particularly frustrating fault from a MMM perspective is that a good 50% of people with excellent and profitable businesses spend all of the business' money on bull$##!. It shouldn't surprise you to learn that this is the case. The same people who have trouble managing their personal budget also have trouble managing their business budget. What is a need and what is a want? They don't know.

Many people have great ideas and work ethic, but no mind for accounting - so they just work work work - and have no clue what they make. How can you make good business decisions if you don't know what your profit margin is? I recently dealt with a client who bid huge projects, had great reviews, but when we finally caught up with his numbers, it turned out that very few jobs that he had completed had been profitable. But since he didn't know that (he thought hard work and skill was all you needed!), he was never able to adapt his bid process or job process. By the time he found out, debt caught up with him and he folded.

Another common mistake is starting a business that's capital intensive. They invest a huge amount in starting the business, without realizing that it will take YEARS of normal profits to pay off their initial investment. There's no analysis of the opportunity cost of spending that money on the front end. I have clients who have invested $200,000+ in businesses and they're happy to gross $50,000 in profit, while working full time at the business (only after years of grossing considerably less). By the time they realize they'd have been better off clocking in for someone else 9-5, it's too late.

Then there are the people who start businesses that just don't sell what people want. There's no thriving market for what they have. They've bought into this fantasy that you get rich by starting a business... but failed to recognize that you have to have a good idea, or a marketable skill first.

Then there's the whole gamut of people who are just plain average workers. Maybe they're poor leaders, or lazy, or not self-starters. Maybe they thrive when people tell them what to do, not when they have to figure it out themselves. Maybe they don't want to commit themselves 24/7 to work, and would rather just commit 9-5, Mon-Fri.

If they recognize this in themselves, then they're not being cowardly, they're being wise.

Cathy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2016, 09:59:47 AM »
You may be talented at math, but evaluating your success at such a project is not really a math problem...I think you are analysing it incorrectly when you look at it as a statistical problem.

Couldn't disagree more. Evaluating the probability of success is inherently a math problem. You say I'm wrong for looking at this like a stats problem, but you did this yourself in the OP didn't you?

Below is an excerpt from the OP. I've underlined words that relate to probability theory or expectation. I've bolded words that are conditions or events in a probability of success function that I believe you've implicitly defined.

I've already addressed this in a previous post.


As for your greater point, if it is indeed the case that no reasonable alternative paths to retirement are open to you (i.e. your tactics are already optimal or close thereto), then (as you point out) answering my original query is simple for you: namely, you are not a coward. This isn't necessarily something I need to dispute, because the question can have different answers for different people. Unfortunately, I can't claim to have realised the same level of perfection that you apparently have, and thus I need to grapple with these issues. (I'd also suspect that a lack of imagination is in play for anyone who thinks their course is already optimal, especially for anyone who has not retired by 30.)

Your suggestion that my thread is "silly click-bait" is a little nonsensical as I do not make any money from this forum, nor have I ever linked to anything that would make me money (unlike some other posters). I posted this thread to see and learn from the responses, not for any ulterior purpose.

Guesl982374

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2016, 10:10:54 AM »
I am going to ignore the video game analogy as I am with arebelspy in that it wasn't really your point. Your point was given the US market, one is better off from an expected value standpoint putting time and energy into a business venture vs. a W-2 job.

Sadly, I am one of them. Are you?

Yes. By your definition I believe I am one of them. One of my main reasons to attain FI is to be able to take bigger risks with my time without putting my family at risk. I have ideas right now that I am trying to get started on the side that have an actually, growing market in the $100's of millions (it doubled in 2015 and now 2016) that would be better served if I went at it full time vs. part time.

In short, I think there are a lot of cowards here.

I disagree with this statement because as others have mentioned, I feel that the vast majority of people don't have the drive or skill to take on their own business venture nor do they want the poor work life balance that comes with it. They may also have a passion for work that can't be done solo.

mm1970

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2016, 10:11:59 AM »
Quote
It very much depends on one's proclivities and talents (not to mention desire--not going the entrepreneur route doesn't have to be from cowardice, but could be from lack of drive, wanting to have better work-life balance, wanting to do a job they enjoy which isn't feasible to do solo, or any other number of reasons).

This is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better.

Guses

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2016, 10:58:14 AM »
I don't live in the states.

brooklynguy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2016, 11:05:35 AM »
This thread (particularly the specific line of discussion about whether or not evaluating the likelihood of success should be viewed as a statistical problem) reminds me of something said by Tim Urban, co-creator of waitbutwhy.com, in a podcast a little while back.  When asked what advice he would give his younger self if he could, he said, essentially (to paraphrase, using the language of this thread):  don't be a coward.  Don't play it safe and toil for the man.  You tend to assume the odds of success in any given endeavor are insurmountable, even if you think you have a knack for it, in the same way that it's generally hopeless to believe you can become the next Michael Jordan even if you're good at basketball.  But in reality, most ventures are not like sports -- in most cases, if you really think you're onto something, you don't need to be better than 99.9% of everyone else in order to succeed, and what really holds you back is the false belief that you do and the resulting unwillingness to take risks and jump into it with full force.

Here's a link, for anyone interested -- that bit starts around the 51 minute mark, but the whole thing is super interesting for any WBW readers:

http://www.thehumanxp.com/episode-59-tim-urban/

Fishindude

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2016, 11:42:57 AM »
I think the OP is way off base regarding how easy it is to truly get wealthy and reach financial independence.   Lots of good stuff in this forum, but I think there is a lot of false hope and outright misleading information posted here in regards to early retirement, how anybody can do it, how easy it is, how little savings it takes, etc.   Retiring in your 30's or 40's is a ridiculous pipe dream for most and is pretty unachievable unless you inherit, hit the lotto, or are content living in a cardboard box eating Raman noodles the rest of your life.

There are exceptions, but getting to financial independence generally takes many years of hard work.  And during those years most of us have families and choose to live a nice lifestyle along the way rather than cutting every corner and saving every nickle.  It's typically a marathon rather than a sprint.   Some of the stuff I read here about folks checking out of the workforce in their 30's with $500,000 net worth has me almost certain that these folks are going to crash hard and find themselves having to go back to work in their 50's or 60's just to make ends meet.

Traditional retirement age has always been 65ish, and the many are still in horrible financial shape at that point, so consider yourself fortunate if you are in good $$ shape at that age.  I feel it would be much more prudent to shoot for a 5 or 10 year early, comfortable retirement rather than bailing out and hoping for the best midway through your prime working and earning years.

The point about cowardice has some merit.  Many are afraid to risk sticking their neck out, or lack confidence to try something on their own.  But that's OK because as Cpa Cat outlines in his post, many are ill equipped to manage a business in the first place.  I see lots of business owners struggling with the items mentioned, and many would be better off and more secure working for the other guy.   Success in business is a pretty special thing and rarely comes easy.

cschx

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2016, 12:58:55 PM »
Retiring in your 30's or 40's is a ridiculous pipe dream for most and is pretty unachievable unless you inherit, hit the lotto, or are content living in a cardboard box eating Raman noodles the rest of your life.

But I love Raman noodles. They come in such a spectrum of flavors!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2016, 01:35:38 PM »
...
As for your greater point, if it is indeed the case that no reasonable alternative paths to retirement are open to you (i.e. your tactics are already optimal or close thereto), then (as you point out) answering my original query is simple for you: namely, you are not a coward. This isn't necessarily something I need to dispute, because the question can have different answers for different people. Unfortunately, I can't claim to have realised the same level of perfection that you apparently have, and thus I need to grapple with these issues. (I'd also suspect that a lack of imagination is in play for anyone who thinks their course is already optimal, especially for anyone who has not retired by 30.)
...

I typed up a reply to this thread yesterday but deleted it since it was more a reinforcement of my personal philosphy and self-congratulatory as opposed to something generally constructive to the conversation.  But this quoted bit revived something I really struggle with when I hang out on this forum.  Dispensing for a moment with the definition of retirement probably being more loose than what I call retirement (e.g. financial security independent of any future income, with a 100% success rate), at what early age does one have to retire to not be a coward?  You threw out 30 probably as some 'impressive' threshold, but I must admit that I don't think even wildly FI folks younger than 40 that aren't ER to be cowardly.  Life, from at least my little experiences, can change dramatically over all those years due to things like bridging the gap between ER and government assistance (medicare, SS), raising children to the point that they are economically indepenedent (no medical issues, and being that I am maybe in the minority here that I don't mind sharing some of my wealth to help give my kids things like a debt-free quality education), helping out aging parents or family struggling due to no fault of their own (e.g. my sister has a husband diagnosed with MS and I may want to help in the future if I am able).

Maybe it is the word choice 'coward' that brought me back, but I feel that retiring before 40 may not be prudent UNLESS you have some independent money making talent (or are a trust funder, to which defining 'retirement' and 'working' is a whole other gray area.)

Anyway, my point is, is it a realistic expectation that everyone who has optimized their life should early retire before 40?  And if so, is there a lower bound on that age (like, five years of salary should be the benchmark for the optimal work / life existence)?  Just spitballing here. 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 01:37:18 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Cycling Stache

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2016, 02:02:54 PM »
This is an interesting question delivered as unpleasantly as possible.  It made me think of the GPS advice you sometimes get on a golf course--hit it long and straight.  Well, yes, if I could do that consistently, I wouldn't be having problems, now would I.

I think OP has completely misstated the odds of financial success from any quick venture.  I think the odds of success are much lower than she's projecting, which--if true--negates the specific question she's asking.

BUT . . . maybe we could combine a version of her question with this question--for those of us close to FI, but not there yet, are we being cowards for not being more optimistic about our future abilities to make money.  There was a poll a while ago about what success rate do you need to see before you FIRE, and the majority of people put something like 95% or greater, with many in the 100% camp.

If you love your job, fine, but that's not why people answer the question that way.  They answer it that way because they know they can gut it out, and gutting it out will get them to success, so don't take a chance at the end.

I'm in that camp.  But I've often thought that if I suddenly lost my job, there's no way I'd look for a new one for the foreseeable future.  Which means that my fear of failure is a big part of what's keeping me here.

So maybe that same question should apply earlier--are we cowards if we don't take a chance at finding a new job, or different job, earlier in our career when we have maybe $50k or $100k saved up, if we don't enjoy the job we have?  Think about how automatic the advice is each time that question comes up--don't leave a job until you have a new job lined up.  Why?  Fear of failure.

There's good reasons for that fear, because it keeps us able to provide for ourselves.  But maybe we discount too much the likelihood of success and financial rewards when considering other endeavors--whether those are jobs early in the career that might pay off, changes mid-stream when a job is just beating you down, or retiring early even if FIRECalc gives you a 50% success rate because what are the odds that intelligent, hard-working, successful you can't find something else that makes money in the next 30 years if needed.

I do think that's an interesting question, even though I disagree with the starting premise of the ready availability of get-rich-quick schemes.

P.S.  I went to Harvard for law school, and I remember being disappointed by how afraid most people were to be called on in class.  People felt that it was better to remain anonymous then potentially be publicly wrong.  I believe most attorneys are fairly risk averse anyway, but there was a good deal of fear of failure that drove them (and me).  We had done such a good job putting together a quality track record to get to that point, so just don't mess it up, get the firm job, and hang on as long as possible.  That didn't describe everyone of course, but it seemed like there was a lot of intelligence in the room that was going to be wasted by people afraid to take a chance. 

Cpa Cat

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2016, 02:12:02 PM »
This thread (particularly the specific line of discussion about whether or not evaluating the likelihood of success should be viewed as a statistical problem) reminds me of something said by Tim Urban, co-creator of waitbutwhy.com, in a podcast a little while back.  When asked what advice he would give his younger self if he could, he said, essentially (to paraphrase, using the language of this thread):  don't be a coward.  Don't play it safe and toil for the man.  You tend to assume the odds of success in any given endeavor are insurmountable, even if you think you have a knack for it, in the same way that it's generally hopeless to believe you can become the next Michael Jordan even if you're good at basketball.  But in reality, most ventures are not like sports -- in most cases, if you really think you're onto something, you don't need to be better than 99.9% of everyone else in order to succeed, and what really holds you back is the false belief that you do and the resulting unwillingness to take risks and jump into it with full force.

Here's a link, for anyone interested -- that bit starts around the 51 minute mark, but the whole thing is super interesting for any WBW readers:

http://www.thehumanxp.com/episode-59-tim-urban/

While I think this is good advice, I can't help but think that individuals who listen to business-related pod casts are a statistically self-selecting group who are more likely than average people to be successes at entrepreneurial activities. The act of seeking out and listening to a podcast from a successful business person demonstrates a drive for success, and a willingness to invest time in learning and seeking advice/knowledge.

The mere act of pressing play in that podcast sets that person apart from the average worker.

brooklynguy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2016, 02:29:28 PM »
The mere act of pressing play in that podcast sets that person apart from the average worker.

Ditto for the mere act of reading a post on this forum dedicated to the achievement of financial independence.

lemonlyman

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2016, 03:02:58 PM »
That kind of success in 0-3 years is incredibly rare in just about every business. Not impossible, but low probability. The topic doesn't presuppose talent, skills, or current level of capital. It's the motivational, "You can do it if you just decide to!" which is great in the vagueness of Jim Rohn or Tony Robbins not the specificity of running away with millions in 0-3 years as a "reasonable" probability in contrast to 7-10 years as an employee being regarded as an unreasonably long time.

Also, assembling a team to do anything is not easy. That, in and of itself, is a very hard skill.

I think the topic question is bunk.

ender

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2016, 03:13:24 PM »
But in reality, most ventures are not like sports -- in most cases, if you really think you're onto something, you don't need to be better than 99.9% of everyone else in order to succeed, and what really holds you back is the false belief that you do and the resulting unwillingness to take risks and jump into it with full force.

This is what I've been mulling over recently and this thread just made me think more about it. I don't have to be the Best at something to make money. Or even a lot of money. I just have to be good enough.

If I think I need to be the Best, I will probably not try, because I can't be the Best. But I can be good enough at a lot of things I suspect that I currently am not really conscious of because of exactly what you said.

I can list a lot of things I am good at.

scottish

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2016, 06:26:56 PM »
This is probably what I'll do when my current job blows up.   You're completely correct that the low capital requirements for software products represent a big opportunity.

But...  you need a good idea.   Like that guy who was selling colourful mismatched socks to elementary school girls a few years ago.  (i think this is it here:  https://www.socklady.com/)   Something that will go viral and leverage the internet to build sales, without requiring a huge dev team to build it.


Cathy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2016, 08:14:20 PM »
Retiring in your 30's or 40's is a ridiculous pipe dream for most and is pretty unachievable unless you inherit, hit the lotto, or are content living in a cardboard box eating Raman noodles the rest of your life. ...

Whoa. Are you sure you submitted this to the correct forum? After reading your post, I had to closely inspect my address bar to make sure I was still visiting mrmoneymustache.com and not complainypants.com.


There are exceptions, but getting to financial independence generally takes many years of hard work.  And during those years most of us have families ...

If your goal is to retire early, having a family is a very shrewd choice. As I've explained in many past posts, having a family allows you to retire 2 to 4 times faster than single person could. In fact, entering into a romantic relationship is probably the single-most straightforward way to dramatically accelerate your retirement. Consider yourself very privileged that you enjoy this substantial advantage, which makes it even easier to retire by 30.

Dr. Pepper

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2016, 10:00:36 PM »
I guess I'm a coward by your definition, I have had modest success through academic and professional routes, however I know the possibility of making much more through starting my own venture exists, and I may have the talent to, but I have decided not to for a few reasons.

I get deep satisfaction from my career ( to the point of it almost not being like work), I get to help people every day, it's always interesting and technically demanding, I have a large amount of autonomy and it's a part of who I am now.

I make enough that even in the face of not living anything close to resembling a life other people have advocated, I'm still financially secure.

I grew up in extreme poverty and through my own efforts was able to overcome that, I have no desire to return to that. My children are now growing up in an environment that is light years from where I came from, I would never put that at risk. Another way to put it is the parable Buffett writes about how risking something you need for something you don't need is foolish. He compares it to playing rush and Roulett with a gun with 1 million chambers for a chance to double his net worth.

If you read autobiographies or listen to talks by people who have produced something of value, it's an iterative process and it's hard( i/e all consuming to the exclusion of everything else) work. Watch a talk by John Paul Mitchell or Sarah Blakely to get an idea of what I mean, the Confidence Game and Made in America are other good examples. In the meantime they have no assurances that success will follow let alone the opportunity cost. While I agree that some of us do have the potential to achieve what the OP has suggested, that is going to be the minority. Most people do not have the tenacity and drive to stick with an idea in the face of everyone calling them crazy, through hard times and in the face of potential financial ruin.

It's almost paradoxical to think the personality type that would be a successful entrepreneur( see above) would be the same that would be content to call it quits after making 1-5 million. In my opinion your almost selecting yourself for failure before you even begin with that mindset. But with that said, I would never discourage someone who thinks they have a shot at doing something amazing from trying.






scottish

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2016, 03:35:30 PM »
Yeah, no kidding.   Even releasing/shipping product in a big company is hard.    A startup is a whole new level.

dividendman

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2016, 04:00:37 PM »
This kind of brings up a point my friends and I were discussing which has been alluded to in this thread a few times:

My one group of friends and I are generally "successful" in our careers in the classic definition: We have very high paying jobs, degrees, etc. but we all work for someone else. The main reason is when we think of an idea or business, we, knowing as much as we know, quickly point out lots of reasons why it won't work: capital requirements, time commitments, regulations, market research, competition, opportunity cost, legal roadblocks, limits on our capabilities etc.

Then I have this other group of friends/family that don't have our level of formal education or that much experience in management/business in large companies or the "real world" of business. Many of these folks don't know of the various pitfalls that might come up, or know but figure they can handle it when they get there, so they start a business kind of doe-eyed but full of energy. Although this is anecdotal, it's my conclusion that it's precisely this lack of inhibiting thoughts that allows them to succeed and many of them have become more successful (monetarily) in opening multiple franchises, starting their own companies, or doing some other business venture than we, traditional working folk, have been.

It makes me think that we (the traditionally "smart" high paid well educated folks) overestimate the weight of some of these business inhibitors, underweight our skills, or both.

Alas, even with that analysis, I have rebuffed several offers to join or start a business venture for precisely the reasons I've mentioned above, they have then gone on to become wildly successful.

scottish

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2016, 04:27:37 PM »
If you start thinking it's going to be impossible to succeed you're at a huge disadvantage.    I didn't mean to say it won't work.   I do think it will be a huge amount of work though.

The appeal of doing this post-FIRE is that you can try out whatever ideas you want to - as long as they don't have large costs besides your time - and success or failure is solely up to you.   

aschmidt2930

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2016, 07:51:13 PM »
50% success rate? I'd love to learn how you came up with that number.  A vast majority of applications fail to make anything beyond pocket change, much less 5 million.

Flyingkea

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2016, 06:54:46 AM »
Another perspective here - I don't want to become an entrepreneur because that's not the way I work - honestly, the thought of running a business is for me, a special kind of hell. No way do I want to deal with taxes, customers, employees etc etc.
I'm not very creative or imaginative in ways of making money either - I try to think of something, or even just a type of work-from-home job, and my mind just goes blank. I like working within the rules - probably why I was a pilot. I had clear expectations, and things are yes/no, left/right. I may chaff over some of the stupider inhouse company rules, but that is the environment I work best in.
Now I'm a SAHM, and I struggle to organise my time, and stay motivated, and not procrastinate. I amtrying to study in my spare time at the moment, and I really have to push to get through it. In a work environment, I would've finished it months ago.

Guesl982374

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2016, 08:25:21 AM »
Retiring in your 30's or 40's is a ridiculous pipe dream for most and is pretty unachievable unless you inherit, hit the lotto, or are content living in a cardboard box eating Raman noodles the rest of your life. ...

Whoa. Are you sure you submitted this to the correct forum? After reading your post, I had to closely inspect my address bar to make sure I was still visiting mrmoneymustache.com and not complainypants.com.


There are exceptions, but getting to financial independence generally takes many years of hard work.  And during those years most of us have families ...

If your goal is to retire early, having a family is a very shrewd choice. As I've explained in many past posts, having a family allows you to retire 2 to 4 times faster than single person could. In fact, entering into a romantic relationship is probably the single-most straightforward way to dramatically accelerate your retirement. Consider yourself very privileged that you enjoy this substantial advantage, which makes it even easier to retire by 30.

haha, I love it

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2016, 08:57:03 AM »
Are cowardice/courage relevant?

If you didn't volunteer to be cannon fodder for WWI in my country, you were a coward. If you agreed to get chopped up by machine gun bullets you were courageous. By those standards, I'd have been one big coward!

However, I agree with the idea that achieving full FI by means of a high-paying job and a high savings rate might not be the optimal way to achieve the freedom that a lot of Mustachians are trying to achieve. People think that my 'eat what you kill' freelancing lifestyle which has allowed me to have 60% of every year to myself is 'risky' or 'scary'. But I don't think words like 'courage' and 'cowardice' are relevant when deciding to step off the beaten path and do something different. They're not useful. Some people are just genuinely more suited to certain options than others.

Also, high salary + low expenses + passive investing + 10 years' hard graft is a reasonably reliable, repeatable formula for never having to work again. Deciding to do that isn't cowardly, it's following a proven strategy.

goalphish2002

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2016, 01:52:53 PM »
Can OP please state which video games they have produced?  Which ones are they currently producing? 

Do you know Curt Schilling personally?  HAHAHAHAHAHA

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2016, 02:53:06 PM »
In the vein of trying to move the conversation away from the video game example,

The theory behind the video game example is that there is nothing inherent to the video game production idea that means you can't succeed with just a few employees and limited start up cash.  There are plenty of examples of this being true.  So it's a great example, and that's proven in two ways.

The lightning in a bottle type ideas that did generate substantial revenues.  And also the, lets say millions, of people who did try it and failed.  The failures aren't a reason not to do it, they might be why you were afraid to, but they don't actually indicate that it can't be done.

A truly bad example might be something like, why didn't you start a car company?  That's a company with massive capital investment and product liability considerations that is almost impossible for someone with no background or resources to get into.  In fact, it's damn near impossible for someone who is fabulously wealthy already to get into.  Of course, any mustachian would instantly think to themselves...well yea, but you could build like a single car and sell it and then move on from there, if it was a neat car with stuff people wanted that didn't suck shit like every Ford ever made.  But I digress...

The issues people are citing with the idea are very much coming across as complainypants.  In point of fact, Cathy knows why you didn't do it, you were afraid of failure.  No amount of your protestations that you had good reason to be afraid of failure changes that thesis.  Equating that fear and the actions you took based on it with cowardice is a little strong, but only if you're putting too much connotation into the word coward.  As a way of describing those of us who did avoid certain paths because of fear, coward works as well as any other.  You might prefer responsible wage slave in the same way hipsters are fine wearing that name as a badge of honor.  It's sort of irrelevant to the underlying thesis.

But lets move away from that as an example, and see if we can come up with some other examples that might make the idea more accessible to you.  The one that jumps out at me is writing.

I think it is a great example because you really don't need many resources to actually produce a product.  It is also a good example because there's actually quite a few bad writers out there who manage to at least make a living, even if they don't become rich within a year.  There are also plenty of bad writers that somehow manage to make crazy money.

And there are those who do become rich quite quickly.

So I tried to come up with similar ideas for things to have done, where there are stellar success stories out there, and the corresponding failures.  Because the failures don't disqualify the idea.  Our fear of those failures is what kept us from even trying.

1.  Writer
2.  Athlete
3.  Politician
4.  Brewmaster
5.  Actor/Actress
6.  Stuntman
7.  Music Producer
8.  Filmmaker

As I'm thinking about it, it really starts to become a list of jobs where success isn't guaranteed.  Or rather, where the odds of failure are just much higher.  And if you look deep inside yourself and the reason you didn't go down this path is not that you knew you didn't have what it took, but that you were afraid of failure then the OP thesis holds true for you.  It doesn't matter what the odds were.  What matters is why you didn't do it.

And if you talked yourself out of trying because it would be hard, there's no shame in that.

There's probably some value in the self-awareness you'll get from mulling it over.

I'll give a couple of my own:

I didn't become a teacher because I wanted to make more money.  The fact that I could have aggressively pursued the highest paid teaching opportunities never occurred to me, I let myself be talked out of it because of my fear of not making as much as I could.

I didn't go into business for myself after engineering school, or after engineering licensure, because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find enough clients.  I let myself be talked out it because of my fear of of not making as much as I already was.

I didn't drop out of college and start covering the video game industry because I figured you needed to be a journalist to do it.  These guys over at penny arcade are baller-rich and its because they did do it.

And now an example of a path I didn't go down for non-cowardly (if not necessarily good reasons):

I didn't become a doctor because I didn't understand that they don't all have to do surgery and my hands shake all the time (didn't feel like I had what it took on a biomechanical level).

I didn't become a priest because I like to put my wee-wee in them what'll let me.  Also the irreverence.

I didn't become a computer programmer because whenever I did programming I found it very unsatisfying and boring.  I liked to create the finished products, but as the amount of effort exceeded that initial "hello world" I lost interest.

So there's a difference between the paths you didn't go down because you couldn't and paths you didn't go down because you were afraid you couldn't.

If you're focusing on specific claims of the OP like the timeline or the exact example mentioned, you likely also talked yourself out of some perfectly viable path, where you probably had greater opportunity for self-actualization, in a similar complainypants cowardly way.

And no fancy arguments on the internet can make that not true.

JLee

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2016, 03:06:28 PM »
In the vein of trying to move the conversation away from the video game example,

The theory behind the video game example is that there is nothing inherent to the video game production idea that means you can't succeed with just a few employees and limited start up cash.  There are plenty of examples of this being true.  So it's a great example, and that's proven in two ways.

The lightning in a bottle type ideas that did generate substantial revenues.  And also the, lets say millions, of people who did try it and failed.  The failures aren't a reason not to do it, they might be why you were afraid to, but they don't actually indicate that it can't be done.

A truly bad example might be something like, why didn't you start a car company?  That's a company with massive capital investment and product liability considerations that is almost impossible for someone with no background or resources to get into.  In fact, it's damn near impossible for someone who is fabulously wealthy already to get into.  Of course, any mustachian would instantly think to themselves...well yea, but you could build like a single car and sell it and then move on from there, if it was a neat car with stuff people wanted that didn't suck shit like every Ford ever made.  But I digress...

The issues people are citing with the idea are very much coming across as complainypants.  In point of fact, Cathy knows why you didn't do it, you were afraid of failure.  No amount of your protestations that you had good reason to be afraid of failure changes that thesis.  Equating that fear and the actions you took based on it with cowardice is a little strong, but only if you're putting too much connotation into the word coward.  As a way of describing those of us who did avoid certain paths because of fear, coward works as well as any other.  You might prefer responsible wage slave in the same way hipsters are fine wearing that name as a badge of honor.  It's sort of irrelevant to the underlying thesis.

But lets move away from that as an example, and see if we can come up with some other examples that might make the idea more accessible to you.  The one that jumps out at me is writing.

I think it is a great example because you really don't need many resources to actually produce a product.  It is also a good example because there's actually quite a few bad writers out there who manage to at least make a living, even if they don't become rich within a year.  There are also plenty of bad writers that somehow manage to make crazy money.

And there are those who do become rich quite quickly.

So I tried to come up with similar ideas for things to have done, where there are stellar success stories out there, and the corresponding failures.  Because the failures don't disqualify the idea.  Our fear of those failures is what kept us from even trying.

1.  Writer
2.  Athlete
3.  Politician
4.  Brewmaster
5.  Actor/Actress
6.  Stuntman
7.  Music Producer
8.  Filmmaker

As I'm thinking about it, it really starts to become a list of jobs where success isn't guaranteed.  Or rather, where the odds of failure are just much higher.  And if you look deep inside yourself and the reason you didn't go down this path is not that you knew you didn't have what it took, but that you were afraid of failure then the OP thesis holds true for you.  It doesn't matter what the odds were.  What matters is why you didn't do it.

And if you talked yourself out of trying because it would be hard, there's no shame in that.

There's probably some value in the self-awareness you'll get from mulling it over.

I'll give a couple of my own:

I didn't become a teacher because I wanted to make more money.  The fact that I could have aggressively pursued the highest paid teaching opportunities never occurred to me, I let myself be talked out of it because of my fear of not making as much as I could.

I didn't go into business for myself after engineering school, or after engineering licensure, because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find enough clients.  I let myself be talked out it because of my fear of of not making as much as I already was.

I didn't drop out of college and start covering the video game industry because I figured you needed to be a journalist to do it.  These guys over at penny arcade are baller-rich and its because they did do it.

And now an example of a path I didn't go down for non-cowardly (if not necessarily good reasons):

I didn't become a doctor because I didn't understand that they don't all have to do surgery and my hands shake all the time (didn't feel like I had what it took on a biomechanical level).

I didn't become a priest because I like to put my wee-wee in them what'll let me.  Also the irreverence.

I didn't become a computer programmer because whenever I did programming I found it very unsatisfying and boring.  I liked to create the finished products, but as the amount of effort exceeded that initial "hello world" I lost interest.

So there's a difference between the paths you didn't go down because you couldn't and paths you didn't go down because you were afraid you couldn't.

If you're focusing on specific claims of the OP like the timeline or the exact example mentioned, you likely also talked yourself out of some perfectly viable path, where you probably had greater opportunity for self-actualization, in a similar complainypants cowardly way.

And no fancy arguments on the internet can make that not true.

I understand your underlying sentiment, but the simple fact is the OP claims there's effectively guaranteed success and anyone can be a multimillionaire in a year if they aren't afraid to try.  You know as well as I do that is not the case.

slowsynapse

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2016, 03:37:24 PM »
Are cowardice/courage relevant?

If you didn't volunteer to be cannon fodder for WWI in my country, you were a coward. If you agreed to get chopped up by machine gun bullets you were courageous. By those standards, I'd have been one big coward!

However, I agree with the idea that achieving full FI by means of a high-paying job and a high savings rate might not be the optimal way to achieve the freedom that a lot of Mustachians are trying to achieve. People think that my 'eat what you kill' freelancing lifestyle which has allowed me to have 60% of every year to myself is 'risky' or 'scary'. But I don't think words like 'courage' and 'cowardice' are relevant when deciding to step off the beaten path and do something different. They're not useful. Some people are just genuinely more suited to certain options than others.

Also, high salary + low expenses + passive investing + 10 years' hard graft is a reasonably reliable, repeatable formula for never having to work again. Deciding to do that isn't cowardly, it's following a proven strategy.

Excellent post IMHO.  Just from my perspective from the last year before FIRE'ing.  I never thought of my working hard for 22 years before FIRE'ing as cowardice although I became more risk averse the closer I got to FI.  Not sure if that is cowardice or survival.  But it takes courage to show up at a job every day and work hard and it takes courage to limit your lifestyle a little bit while many of your friends live in luxury but save very little.  It takes courage to hand in your resignation so that you can not work 20 years before the societal norm says it is okay.  From my time on these forums, I see a lot of people who are definitely not cowards which is why so many bristle at the depiction.  If I am a coward in OP's eyes, then so be it.  I am a retired coward though.

.22guy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2016, 03:41:33 PM »
This post is horseshit. If it was that easy, more people would do it.

dividendman

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2016, 03:48:17 PM »
If it was that easy, more people would do it.

False. Many things are easy and good for people but people don't do them. (e.g. getting to FI in a short(er) period of time)

Northwestie

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 03:49:54 PM »
This post is horseshit. If it was that easy, more people would do it.

...........and if money is the driving force in your life. Which, IMO, is just too narrow a view.

JLee

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2016, 03:51:55 PM »
If it was that easy, more people would do it.

False. Many things are easy and good for people but people don't do them. (e.g. getting to FI in a short(er) period of time)

Or exercise - but that doesn't mean everybody could be the next Usain Bolt.

Cyaphas

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2016, 03:53:56 PM »
This thread (particularly the specific line of discussion about whether or not evaluating the likelihood of success should be viewed as a statistical problem) reminds me of something said by Tim Urban, co-creator of waitbutwhy.com, in a podcast a little while back.  When asked what advice he would give his younger self if he could, he said, essentially (to paraphrase, using the language of this thread):  don't be a coward.  Don't play it safe and toil for the man.  You tend to assume the odds of success in any given endeavor are insurmountable, even if you think you have a knack for it, in the same way that it's generally hopeless to believe you can become the next Michael Jordan even if you're good at basketball.  But in reality, most ventures are not like sports -- in most cases, if you really think you're onto something, you don't need to be better than 99.9% of everyone else in order to succeed, and what really holds you back is the false belief that you do and the resulting unwillingness to take risks and jump into it with full force.

Here's a link, for anyone interested -- that bit starts around the 51 minute mark, but the whole thing is super interesting for any WBW readers:

http://www.thehumanxp.com/episode-59-tim-urban/

While I think this is good advice, I can't help but think that individuals who listen to business-related pod casts are a statistically self-selecting group who are more likely than average people to be successes at entrepreneurial activities. The act of seeking out and listening to a podcast from a successful business person demonstrates a drive for success, and a willingness to invest time in learning and seeking advice/knowledge.

The mere act of pressing play in that podcast sets that person apart from the average worker.

I disagree. When I hear successful people talk about taking chances, I think it's almost as genuine as asking a lottery winner if you should play the lottery. A lot of the people preaching about taking chances fail to realize the positions that they were put in by either fate or their family that allowed them to take advantage of their dive into the unknown. These same people have often left a wake of hourly paid people behind them that gave them million dollar ideas and labor or in a lot of cases they just out right stole something and were better at marketing or simply had more capital than their competitor.

frompa

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2016, 06:49:58 AM »
The line between being a coward and exercising common sense is clear only in hindsight. 

Bicycle_B

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2016, 09:08:25 AM »
Are cowardice/courage relevant?

If you didn't volunteer to be cannon fodder for WWI in my country, you were a coward. If you agreed to get chopped up by machine gun bullets you were courageous. By those standards, I'd have been one big coward!

However, I agree with the idea that achieving full FI by means of a high-paying job and a high savings rate might not be the optimal way to achieve the freedom that a lot of Mustachians are trying to achieve. People think that my 'eat what you kill' freelancing lifestyle which has allowed me to have 60% of every year to myself is 'risky' or 'scary'. But I don't think words like 'courage' and 'cowardice' are relevant when deciding to step off the beaten path and do something different. They're not useful. Some people are just genuinely more suited to certain options than others.

Also, high salary + low expenses + passive investing + 10 years' hard graft is a reasonably reliable, repeatable formula for never having to work again. Deciding to do that isn't cowardly, it's following a proven strategy.

Excellent post IMHO.  Just from my perspective from the last year before FIRE'ing.  I never thought of my working hard for 22 years before FIRE'ing as cowardice although I became more risk averse the closer I got to FI.  Not sure if that is cowardice or survival.  But it takes courage to show up at a job every day and work hard and it takes courage to limit your lifestyle a little bit while many of your friends live in luxury but save very little.  It takes courage to hand in your resignation so that you can not work 20 years before the societal norm says it is okay.  From my time on these forums, I see a lot of people who are definitely not cowards which is why so many bristle at the depiction.  If I am a coward in OP's eyes, then so be it.  I am a retired coward though.

LOL.  Oh, that's awesome.  Slowsynapse, your humor synapse is still working.

Mikila

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2016, 09:48:12 AM »
Cowardice is letting fear dictate your actions.  Some enjoy the thrill of risk, and some do ...not.  To say "no" to a get-rich-quick gambling scheme is not cowardice, but prudence.  The tortoise vs. the hare would seem to apply.

frugalmaybe

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2016, 10:01:42 AM »
I think you might be a coward.

We all know that if you live in the United States, it's relatively easy to retire at or before age 30 so long as you (a) choose a lucrative career, (b) maximise your wage-earning potential within that lucrative career, and then (c) put in your hours of slavery toiling beneath your landowning overlords.

I didn't know that until i discovered this site a few weeks ago. Some small part of me had probably known it was possible, but I didn't realize how systematically feasible it was until finding this site (and related sites).

Quote
We know all of that already (although some of us here might be in denial about each of (a), (b), and (c)).

But what we also know is that it's not really necessary to toil away for 7-10 years in order to become a millionaire. I can think of plenty of methods with a reasonable (but uncertain) probability of earning multiple millions of dollars in a far shorter time frame (say, less than a year). I'm sure you can think of some of those methods too. One of the most obvious methods is to build some sort of computer game. We know that plenty of people are willing to churn out high calibre work for very little compensation, so it really shouldn't be hard to assemble a team consisting of an artist, musician, engineer, and project manager and whip up a relatively successful game. By my estimates, it's possible to build a game that grosses $5,000,000 with a mere $50,000 investment.

I don't think anybody seriously disputes that there are plenty of very fast ways to become relatively wealthy, although we might dispute the exact probabilities involved. (I'd say the probability of the game working out is probably a tad over 50%, but who knows.


 If you disagree with the preceding stricken-through sentence, see this post and this post.) Realistically, the expected values almost certainly work out in favour of any of a number of business schemes rather than just toiling away as a slave.


I would need some kind of concrete source of information to that effect before accepting this assertion. The only professional routes I know of with a certain predictable amount of investment and a range of predictable and higher-than-middle-class returns are investment banking and law. There is a lot of discussion claiming software entrepreneurship has a similar roi model, but I think it's a far less well documented and predictable path.

Quote
I can really think of only one reason why we choose to work for 7-10 years rather than just 1-3 years. That reason is cowardice: fear of not being able to execute; complacence with one's current station in life; a lack of self-confidence; and a belief that it can't just be that easy to become a millionaire. In short, I think there are a lot of cowards here. Sadly, I am one of them. Are you?

Only insomuch as cowardice is a respect of risk.

frugalmaybe

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2016, 10:24:24 AM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

protostache

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2016, 12:37:58 PM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

Amy Hoy comes close, in so far as she advocates building a business you can live and love. She's lived and breathed it for like 15 years now and teaches what she knows. Rob Walling as well. There are an awful lot of podcasts about this idea too.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2016, 01:09:35 PM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

My fave, http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/, although maybe not what you were asking?  But yes, it is entirely possible to make hundreds of thousands, or maybe a few millions if you are really sharp online.  Much harder than it looks tho, and constantly getting tougher.  The low startup cost has pretty much leveled that playing field.

arebelspy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2016, 05:33:35 PM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

The Millionaire Fastlane.

Read the book.

They have forums, too, but start with the book.

The title is SO gimmicky, but the book is really good.  If I wanted to start a business to make 10 million dollars by 2-3 years from now, having already read it, the first thing I'd do is read it a second time, today, and then read it again tomorrow.   :P
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

protostache

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2016, 06:10:26 PM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

The Millionaire Fastlane.

Read the book.

They have forums, too, but start with the book.

The title is SO gimmicky, but the book is really good.  If I wanted to start a business to make 10 million dollars by 2-3 years from now, having already read it, the first thing I'd do is read it a second time, today, and then read it again tomorrow.   :P

TMF is mustachianism turned on its head, from living a quiet retired life with some travel to "gotta get them Lambos." The author executed on two tricks well: selling a moderately successful lead gen business and then convincing himself that he could generalize the experience. The forums are full of wantrepreneurs and not much doing, at least the last time I looked. I never paid for the private forums, maybe those are better.

IMO the book is a bunch of aspirational claptrap with maybe 10 good pages of information. The author takes so long getting to his point that I don't even remember what the important takeaway was.

Basically I'm not a fan :p

smedleyb

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2016, 06:36:42 PM »
The failure rates of small business ownership speaks for itself.  Yes, those guys and gals are heroes, embodying the truest capitalist spirit.  And most are financially dead, too.  I'll happily be the faceless hack in the background plodding my way to wealth 10 bucks at a time, sleeping well at night knowing my expenses are low and my assets high (enough). 

arebelspy

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2016, 06:47:11 PM »
The [Millionaire Fastlane] forums are full of wantrepreneurs

Haha, I love this term.

His spending model may not be one to emulate, but I think it had a ton of fantastic ideas if you want to get rich quickly starting a business.  I don't view it as a personal finance book, so I don't care about his opinions on buying fancy cars.  Take what you can, leave the rest.  Ditto with MMM, and basically everything else.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

frugalmaybe

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2016, 10:25:45 AM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

The Millionaire Fastlane.

Read the book.

They have forums, too, but start with the book.

The title is SO gimmicky, but the book is really good.  If I wanted to start a business to make 10 million dollars by 2-3 years from now, having already read it, the first thing I'd do is read it a second time, today, and then read it again tomorrow.   :P

thanks. just read a few pages... the lamborghini theme/fetish is a bit of a turnoff, but he seems to be an intelligent guy. will try reading some more...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 10:38:05 AM by frugalmaybe »

PizzaSteve

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Re: Are you a coward?
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2016, 11:43:26 AM »
this thread does make me wonder if there are sites/blogs devoted precisely to the idea of software entrepreneurship. i.e. the mrmoneymustache of software entrepreneurship.

The Millionaire Fastlane.

Read the book.

They have forums, too, but start with the book.

The title is SO gimmicky, but the book is really good.  If I wanted to start a business to make 10 million dollars by 2-3 years from now, having already read it, the first thing I'd do is read it a second time, today, and then read it again tomorrow.   :P

Excellent advice.  Even further, study the topic, as there are many fantastic books and human resources available for would be entrepreneurs to improve their chances of success.

[edited out personal info not necessary to the thread]

Good luck...I am retiring and leaving it to the ambitious young to go for it.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 04:10:07 PM by PizzaSteve »