Are Mustachians more intelligent than the average American?

[HSH Princess Grace]

I am new to this forum (but not the blog.)  I joined because of a debate I was having with my partner last night.

Are those choosing a mustachian life more intelligent than the average American?

We are smart sizing out of choice, not need.  I would prefer to move our family of 4 (which includes two opposite gender children) to an 800 square foot home.  He would prefer a 1,400 square foot home.

His concern is that greater society, and specifically their peer group in our wealthy suburban area, will negatively judge the children based on our housing choice.  In response, I stated that I was not concerned about the others' perceptions as I believe that the more intelligent, educated public is slowly beginning to champion a more Mustachian life.  He disagreed and believes there is no distinction between the intelligence of those with a typical American lifestyle (buying as large of a home as they can afford, buying wasteful gadgets, etc.) and those choosing a life more consistent with MMM.

I don't know if research exists but I'd love to know others' thoughts on this topic.  Anecdotally it seems many of the blogs I read are authored by highly intelligent individuals.  In addition, I remember reading here that many of the subscribers are engineers, tech professionals, and college professors- professions known for drawing those with above average intelligence.

What do you think? 

[Rickk]

I don't think the difference is intelligence as much as just not caring what others think.

[Forcus]

How do you measure intelligence?

I tend to say it's knowledge + application. If you have all the smarts in the world but don't do anything with them, how intelligent are you?

So in a way, I'd say that yes, mustachians are probably more intelligent than the average person. They tend to know what they want, create a plan to get there, then execute the plan. I'd say that separates mustachians from the typical non-mustachians.

Lots of people who are non-mustachian have pseudo-knowledge, plus application. That pseudo-knowledge says that their success is tied to how other people view them. Many of these people can apply that pseudo-knowledge. But they are not intelligent (in my opinion).

Just my opinion.

[PeteD01]

Less intelligent
A bunch of irresponsible dumbasses following a deranged guru who will meet their deserved fate in due time.
I mean having money and not spending it?
Or talking all day long about what NOT to do with it...
Riding bikes rain or shine in heavy traffic...
And what if everybody would be doing it?
The list goes on and on.

All the others - don't be alarmed about the little disturbance, please report back to your cubicle, break's over.

Peter

[catccc]

Since I think the average American is pretty stupid, I'd say yes...

[soccerluvof4]

Perhaps more intelligent when it comes to these matters if there applying them.  The earth though is crawling with intellectual idiots as well. Its not all about intellect. I am sure there are alot of people that might not be very intelligent by definition who are better off financially then most.

[GuitarStv]

No, some of us are just cheap.

[schimt]

I believe the average American isn't exposed to this concept of financial independence and early retirement and has no believe that it is possible, so for what reason would most people take a path of minimal spending and saving. Our school systems hardly even educate on simple personal finance.

Then to the other half of your question, comparing two people who know the theory of FIRE which is discussed on forums like this, with one choosing not to follow and the other does, I don't think it is a lack of intelligence, but a lack of motivation. There is no doubt that living a frugal lifestyle takes some sacrifices and adjustments, and if you have no motivation (such as disliking a job, wanting to travel or start your own business, ect.) why would an intelligent person put energy into making any of these changes?

[sol]

Yes, more intelligent. Also better looking.

[Russ]

my incredible intelligence is surpassed only by my modesty

[AJ]

In the context of your debate with your husband, it is an interesting question. I want to say yes, but that would be totally based on "feeling" and also probably some form of bias.

I will say, though, that I cannot count the number of times I heard, "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?" "If they judge you based on how much your clothes cost they're not really your friends." "You can't live your life based on what other people think." while I was growing up. My parents clearly and consistently taught me to live life based on my own values and not those my social cohort prescribes for me - and they walked the talk as well. I am grateful for that lesson above all the others. As an adult now, I find living by my own values second nature. Whether the Jonses will judge my decisions doesn't even factor into my decision-making process - not by choice, just by habit.

I would consider that before buying a bigger house than you need to impress the neighbors. Your kids will see that, and think it is how they should behave. Neighbors will come and go, but your child's ability to think for themselves will last a lifetime.

[Eric]

I think we definitely have more financial intelligence.  Does that signify greater general intelligence?  I doubt it.  There are lots of very smart people who are below average with money.  Doctors immediately jump to mind. (in general, not you specifically, forum reading doc)

[Ottawa]

Hmm...well, according to the poll conducted here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-iq/ the average IQ for Mustachians is between 120-160 (roughly). 

If you go here: http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-with-the-highest-lowest-average-iq/ you can see the average American IQ is roughly 100.

Therefore either Mustachians are:

A) MUCH more intelligent, or;
B) Liars

I would lean more towards A) based on the 190 votes in the poll.  But, there are many elements that might skew the poll...soo...

[Eric]

Therefore either Mustachians are:

A) MUCH more intelligent, or;
B) Liars

C) Selection Bias

[aclarridge]

I think the answer is yes, but it's not because of our philosophy about money as much as it's simply that in order to be one, you need to have read a bunch of thoughtful blog posts on the internet. That's something that people of average or low intelligence aren't as likely to do as those with higher intelligence.

Also the blog is primarily aimed at an audience that makes enough money to be able to have a 50%+ savings rate and still appear to live pretty similarly to everybody else. That's a reasonably high income, probably higher than average (indeed, average income on this forum seems to be a fair bit higher than average). Income and intelligence are at least somewhat correlated, so that's another potential reason - we have higher incomes therefore on average we're probably more intelligent.

This all sounds very arrogant so let me just say I'm at the low intelligence end of this group.

[Jamesqf]

I would consider that before buying a bigger house than you need to impress the neighbors. Your kids will see that, and think it is how they should behave. Neighbors will come and go, but your child's ability to think for themselves will last a lifetime.

There are a few steps in there before deciding that the OP's husband's desire for a larger house is simply a matter of impressing the neighbors.  Start by thinking about what you'd choose if there were no neighbors, and no one outside your family would ever see where you live.  How much space would you want to feel comfortable?  Choosing an uncomfortably small house because of Mustachian peer pressure is just as much a sign of unintelligence (= lack of ability to think for yourself) as is choosing an expensively too large one.

[hybrid]

More intelligent on average? Of course. And having said that, you will find smart people arguing diametrically different positions all the time.

The question I think you may be asking is this. Are Mustachians wiser than the average American. When it comes to fiscal matters, obviously. The average American is a poor fiscal steward, the bar is rather low.

When it comes to almost everything else, why, that all depends on the lens you are looking through, doesn't it? Look at your choice of homes. Forget 800 SF vs. 1400 SF for just a moment, where are those homes located? If you are saving money by moving into an 800 SF home but the schools are crappy then the 1400 SF home in a better area may be the better option, and vice versa.

[phred]

Are those choosing a mustachian life more intelligent than the average American?

more focused, perhaps

[Ottawa]

C) Selection Bias

Yup, that's one of the

many elements that might skew the poll

:-)

[AJ]

There are a few steps in there before deciding that the OP's husband's desire for a larger house is simply a matter of impressing the neighbors.

But the OP says specifically that her hubby's concern was what their affluent neighbors might think. Why would I assume he wanted the extra space for personal comfort when she says otherwise?

[Allen]

Don't confuse wisdom or education with intelligence.

[DollarBill]

You guys crack me up...lol. I guess I'm one of the dumb ones because I had to look up the word "diametrically".

[Breaker]

Hi,

More intelligent?  I doubt it.  I often think that it is lack of knowledge and/or belief.  If you are living from paycheck to paycheck because you have to (min. wage earner) and it seems impossible to even pay monthly bills much less pay a bill off it is hard to understand or believe that savings of any kind will make any real difference. 

As Schimt said, Americans are NOT educated on even simple personal finance at least not by our Education System and most often not by our parents either. 

The Husband's stated reason for wanting the larger house is because he fears that his
children will be thought less of.  While I think that people often use their children as an excuse for doing something that they want to do, we should take his reason at face value.   

AJ says it best.

"I would consider that before buying a bigger house than you need to impress the neighbors. Your kids will see that, and think it is how they should behave. Neighbors will come and go, but your child's ability to think for themselves will last a lifetime."

Jan

[johnintaiwan]

Therefore either Mustachians are:

A) MUCH more intelligent, or;
B) Liars

C) Selection Bias

How do that many people know their IQ? Online "tests?" From what I remember in psychology class, IQ tests are not very common and are most often used to determine if one meets the requirements for metal retardation. Or is this a new thing where people pay money to have an IQ test administered so they can brag about it?

[Ottawa]

How do that many people know their IQ? Online "tests?" From what I remember in psychology class, IQ tests are not very common and are most often used to determine if one meets the requirements for metal retardation. Or is this a new thing where people pay money to have an IQ test administered so they can brag about it?

The one largely used for the poll...according to the OP.

http://www.free-iqtest.net/

[Zamboni]

I don't know about more intelligent, but I know that when we lived in an 800 sq ft apt with no TV reception of any kind and no video game system or computer, my son's friends thought we had the best, most fun house in the universe.  Probably because it forced them to actually play together with his legos and beyblades or play board games or go outside and find frogs or crayfish, etc.  Apparently there is now novelty in these pursuits for the elementary school jet set.  Seriously, more than one of his friends told me our apt was the "funnest" house to visit.

[Primm]

I just took that test. It gave me a score of 148. I took a formal test at the local university a few years ago as part of a friend's research study, and while my score wasn't shabby, I can tell you it was significantly less than 148. And I've just come off night duty and was up all night.

I'm not saying the online IQ testing model is flawed... well ok, maybe I am.

[SAHD]

I think readers of MMM are more "informed" not more intelligent.  We followers of MMM and other "extreme" website thirst for knowledge and an edge to the craziness of our world.  Many if not most people go through thier daily lives not paying attention to the world around them.  You try to talk politics or finances or world news and they can only talk about the latest sport scores or newest episode on the Tele.

I think MMM followers pay more attention to our surroundings and thus we seem smarter.  But I agree with your significant other, that the regular folk do and will past judgement upon you as they do to everyone, and in some way we all do it.  We laugh at them for buying on credit the newest gadgets and they laugh at us for not.

[RootofGood]

I didn't get much in the looks department (though I'm still within 1 SD of the median I think), but I'm sure my intellect more than makes up for it.  I can manipulate excel spreadsheets, calculate unit costs in my head (to 3 significant digits), and tell you the capital of any state (as long as it's geographically adjacent to North Carolina). 

As for the house, ummm, seriously?  Buy the house you need.  Just tell everyone you're living in the 800 sf house while your lake house/ski lodge/beach house/island resort is being remodeled. 

[Jamesqf]

There are a few steps in there before deciding that the OP's husband's desire for a larger house is simply a matter of impressing the neighbors.

But the OP says specifically that her hubby's concern was what their affluent neighbors might think. Why would I assume he wanted the extra space for personal comfort when she says otherwise?

Perhaps I'm reading something between the lines that wasn't really there, but I got the sense that 'what would the neighbors think' was just a knee-jerk reaction.  I'm also having a little problem visualizing the sort of neighborhood that combines an 800 sq ft house with affluent neighbors.

Or maybe it's just my bias, as I'd have real trouble living comfortably in 800 sq ft, just by myself (well, plus a couple of dogs).  My current place is about 1200 sq ft, and I find it a bit cramped, though some of that is just poor layout rather than just area.

[wtjbatman]

You guys crack me up...lol. I guess I'm one of the dumb ones because I had to look up the word "diametrically".

I knew what it meant, but I can't imagine why anyone would talk like that in a normal conversation. Or on an online forum which preaches a message of simplicity and minimalism. Then again, if your goal is to sound intelligent, what better thread to do it in?

[Zikoris]

I think Mustachians are more logical and rational than the general population. To me, being capable of logical reasoning and rational decision making is a cornerstone of intelligence.

[Gerard]

Presumably our criteria for intelligence are influenced by the choices we've made (including the choice to be here) and the values we hold. This reminds me a bit of those surveys that show that France is the best place in the world to live, and the major metric turns out to be "number of soft cheeses".

wrt house size and kids' attitudes, I think it's gonna really vary based on where you live, your kids' age/gender,  and whether they go to school with the children of dickheads. When my kids were very young, their schoolmates thought our dumpy little house was the best house ever because it had a slide in the kitchen and we put peanut butter into our salad dressing.

[GuitarStv]

You guys crack me up...lol. I guess I'm one of the dumb ones because I had to look up the word "diametrically".

I knew what it meant, but I can't imagine why anyone would talk like that in a normal conversation. Or on an online forum which preaches a message of simplicity and minimalism. Then again, if your goal is to sound intelligent, what better thread to do it in?

It's important to pick words carefully to eschew obfuscation.

[SwordGuy]

Intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.

One can be very smart and a damn fool.   

Or not so smart and be very wise.

[ch12]

I was recently introduced to the idea of numeracy.

mathematical competence: a competence in the mathematical skills needed to cope with everyday life and an understanding of information presented mathematically, e.g. in graphs, charts, or tables

My company especially screens for a base level of numeracy as part of the interview process. The head of my team sent us research on that idea, because we write information for patients that may fly over their heads.

I think that Mustachians have above average numeracy. The definition of intelligence is a very tricky thing (read AJ Jacobs' book The Know It All to a) learn about funny parts of the encyclopedia and b) see a discussion of knowledge, intelligence, and fertility [one of those things is not like the other, I know]).

We tell people to run the numbers when they make decisions. It's part of the community here.

We are not like this person:

JOAN ON APRIL 07TH, 2014
(1) I haven’t done my own house cleaning in decades.
(2) Rarely look at the price tag on quality groceries. Love Whole Foods!
(3) I’m a sucker for a good cause. Especially homelessness, hunger and animals.
(4) Does any quilter ever have enough fabric?

I have selective deafness when anyone brings up my spending habits. It’s my money, I earned it – back off!

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/examples-of-spending-on-the-things-you-love/?inf_contact_key=f0da757d5b8d176a4453a678d0953983daefc28c01bdb43c76369d5f727de0de#comment-207596

There are many cringeworthy comments on Ramit's April 2014 article on guilt-free spending. While the Mustachians may confess to buying books, Mac products, or fancy shampoo, Mustachians letting go are still spending a small fraction of what Ramit's audience spends.

[frugalnacho]

Any time i've ever asked people about their iq, or estimates of their iq or general intelligence I always get "above average" as an answer.  In school, at work, with friends, with family, with neighbors it's always the same.  Every single person considered themselves above average, even the ones I was convinced were just barely above mentally retarded.  It seems the less intelligent they are the less able they are to accurately gauge their own intelligence (or other people's intelligence), with the net result of everyone reporting approximately the same iq.  Everyone is about 2-3 standard deviations above the general population. 

[hybrid]

You guys crack me up...lol. I guess I'm one of the dumb ones because I had to look up the word "diametrically".

I knew what it meant, but I can't imagine why anyone would talk like that in a normal conversation. Or on an online forum which preaches a message of simplicity and minimalism. Then again, if your goal is to sound intelligent, what better thread to do it in?

Seriously??? I truly had no idea that was considered out of the norm, and yes, I have used that word in conversation before, perhaps my conversations are out of the norm. Sorry if my fancy-pants word wasn't simple or minimal enough. I shall try to be more monosyllabic simpler going forward....  ;-)

[anisotropy]

It's a lifestyle choice more than anything else I believe.

[Runge]

Don't confuse wisdom or education with intelligence.

I agree with this. I wouldn't say that mustachians are generally more intelligent than non mustachians. I'd say we're more educated on the matters of finances and are more active about freeing ourselves from the control of money.

I'd say all people are capable of becoming educated and active in their finances. Intelligence is a much broader term than many realize, and isn't as easily quantified.

[Ftao93]

Though my IQ is higher than 'average', I am NOT more educated, or generally more informed.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that I would be well on my way to retirement if I wasn't a general dummy about many things.

However, I have had the good fortune to be presented with my 2nd (and last) mate, and good friends who are on board with this sort of behavior :P.

[CommonCents]

You guys crack me up...lol. I guess I'm one of the dumb ones because I had to look up the word "diametrically".

I knew what it meant, but I can't imagine why anyone would talk like that in a normal conversation. Or on an online forum which preaches a message of simplicity and minimalism. Then again, if your goal is to sound intelligent, what better thread to do it in?

Seriously??? I truly had no idea that was considered out of the norm, and yes, I have used that word in conversation before, perhaps my conversations are out of the norm. Sorry if my fancy-pants word wasn't simple or minimal enough. I shall try to be more monosyllabic simpler going forward....  ;-)

I use it too.  In fact, the best man at my wedding (my BIL) said in his speech he knew I was perfect for his brother (who also read oodles growing up), because I used "said" as an adjective rather than past tense, e.g. "Said Best Man had the best speech ever."

I would not let someone try to embarrass you into dumbing down your speech.  March to the beat of your own drummer here on MMM forums. 

[hybrid]

I would not let someone try to embarrass you into dumbing down your speech.  March to the beat of your own drummer here on MMM forums.

Oh, I agree with you. I was surprised simplicity and minimalism were being applied to the written word (all of which are free, even the fancy-pants ones). No, I don't plan on changing a thing, I was just being snarky.

(And I also use said as an adjective, FWIW)

[Jamesqf]

I would not let someone try to embarrass you into dumbing down your speech.

Also remember that this is not speech, it is writing & reading.  I think most of us have far larger reading vocabularies than we'd ever use in speaking.  Certainly it's so for me: for instance, I know what bremsstrahlung & Pontcysyllte are (just to pick a couple of examples), but I don't think I could ever actually pronounce them.

[CommonCents]

I would not let someone try to embarrass you into dumbing down your speech.

Also remember that this is not speech, it is writing & reading.  I think most of us have far larger reading vocabularies than we'd ever use in speaking.  Certainly it's so for me: for instance, I know what bremsstrahlung & Pontcysyllte are (just to pick a couple of examples), but I don't think I could ever actually pronounce them.

True.  I recently learned a lovely word imbroglio, which I have yet to use in speech - though I daresay it'll be easier to pronounce than your two words.  Now, to look up your words...

[AJ]

Certainly it's so for me: for instance, I know what bremsstrahlung & Pontcysyllte are (just to pick a couple of examples), but I don't think I could ever actually pronounce them.

Ugh, this is so annoyingly true. I wanted to use the word onerous when talking to friends this weekend, but stumbled because as the sentence escaped my lips I realized I've only seen it written and didn't know the proper way to pronounce it. Rather embarrassing in the middle of a lively debate...

[griffin]

I'm not sure about more intelligent, but it seems like a lot of mustachians here tend to have had some advantages in life. I'm sure there are exceptions, but it seems like for the most part people come from middle class backgrounds. This certainly makes it easier to get the STEM degree so many of us here have. People seem to have pretty strong feelings about the word "privilege", but I think most of the people on this forum have it, to some degree. Not that that's a bad thing!

[samburger]

More stubborn, not more intelligent.

[CommonCents]

Certainly it's so for me: for instance, I know what bremsstrahlung & Pontcysyllte are (just to pick a couple of examples), but I don't think I could ever actually pronounce them.

Ugh, this is so annoyingly true. I wanted to use the word onerous when talking to friends this weekend, but stumbled because as the sentence escaped my lips I realized I've only seen it written and didn't know the proper way to pronounce it. Rather embarrassing in the middle of a lively debate...

Ahh, this reminds me of when I was in about the 4th grade, I used the word wounded.  I think I was reading a book about Betsy Ross at the time.  I mispronounced it (as the past tense of wind + -ed) because I had only read it, never heard it to my recollection.  I had to suffer through my family laughing at me first before they would tell me how to pronounce it.  I was more careful after that, trying to avoid another minor humiliation.  I use a bigger daily vocubulary than my dad...but I've never stumped him on asking how to pronounce one.

[Freedom2016]

Certainly it's so for me: for instance, I know what bremsstrahlung & Pontcysyllte are (just to pick a couple of examples), but I don't think I could ever actually pronounce them.

Ugh, this is so annoyingly true. I wanted to use the word onerous when talking to friends this weekend, but stumbled because as the sentence escaped my lips I realized I've only seen it written and didn't know the proper way to pronounce it. Rather embarrassing in the middle of a lively debate...

Ahh, this reminds me of when I was in about the 4th grade, I used the word wounded.  I think I was reading a book about Betsy Ross at the time.  I mispronounced it (as the past tense of wind + -ed) because I had only read it, never heard it to my recollection.  I had to suffer through my family laughing at me first before they would tell me how to pronounce it.  I was more careful after that, trying to avoid another minor humiliation.  I use a bigger daily vocubulary than my dad...but I've never stumped him on asking how to pronounce one.

Look what happened to this poor kid on national television: http://www.salon.com/2014/04/14/wheel_of_fortune_contestant_mispronounces_achilles_loses_chance_at_1_million/

On the subject at hand, it doesn't sit right with me to ascribe the difference between this population and others as one of intelligence. Of values? Sure. Of comfort and experience with manipulating numbers? Sure. Of having long-term goals and an ability to forego immediate gratification? Yes again. Of seeking and having access to tips and information to make better decisions? Oui.

But ascribing it to some kind of general intelligence bump doesn't resonate for me. [I'm not saying anyone here has actually articulated this point of view, but to me it sounds too much like people in a hobby group building a self-serving "us vs. them" story in which they are the heroes / good people, and others are the villains and/or village idiots.] People interested in any given subject or skill may devote good chunks of their lives to that subject's study and execution. That's about interests and values and preferences, not necessarily smarts.