Author Topic: Anyone used CarNextDoor, etc? - renting out your car when you're not using it  (Read 6355 times)

AustralianMustachio

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Any Australians used Car Next Door?

The idea seems very appealing to me, from both an environmental and financial perspective. I have a car, which I need to keep for my work, but it doesn't get used as often as most cars. Being able to rent it out when I'm not using it would suit me well.

http://www.carnextdoor.com.au

Everything is insured if something goes wrong. They say owners make an average $300 a month profit from lending out their car.

The only downside I can see is the Ks going up and thus the sale value diminishing. But I'm not planning on selling mine soon, and if I can make anything over a hundred a month it'd totally be worth it.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 02:00:35 AM by AustralianMustachio »

Guses

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Not sure the financials make sense for the owner.

They appear to be charging 29 cents per KM as well as 5$ per hour or 25$ per day.

Assuming a car costs 25K and lasts 250,000 KM puts your depreciation at 10 cents per KM.

Worst case, someone does 120 KM in that hour which brings us 29 cents + 4 cents for the 5$ per hour. All in all, you are receiving about 33 cents per KM.  Considering the owner pays for insurance, gas, maintenance, depreciation, I am not sure that you are making any significant amount of money on renting your car.

 From a financial standpoint, I think that you are better driving the car less and having it last longer and paying less in insurance and maintenance.

Just my 2 cents.

Left

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it was mention on this site a while back for another car renting thing, someone brought up the liability issue too if the renter hits someone with your car :S and it wasn't clear if the damage would be covered under your insurance or the company's

Guses

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I looked at it a little bit more and the 29c per KM is only meant to cover the running costs, not depreciation. They have tables that show the estimated cost for different cars.

So basically you are renting the car for free and paying depreciation for someone else to use your car.

My impression is that the winners are the renters and the company, not the owners.

---edit----

Really, if you think about it. If this was a winning proposition for owners, the company would be the one buying and renting out all the cars and making all the sweet, sweet profit.

As a matter of fact, they are not. This should raise some red flags for you.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 08:09:13 AM by Guses »

AustralianMustachio

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Thanks for the responses guys

it was mention on this site a while back for another car renting thing, someone brought up the liability issue too if the renter hits someone with your car :S and it wasn't clear if the damage would be covered under your insurance or the company's

I'm pretty sure membership includes insurance that covers everything.

I will take a closer look at the numbers myself, but just wanted an impression or two. The renters have to fill the car up with fuel once they're done, so the owner doesn't lose out on fuel costs. I think you can charge more than 5$ an hour or $25 a day.

I will take a closer look and report back soon on if it looks worth it or not

Guses

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The renters have to fill the car up with fuel once they're done, so the owner doesn't lose out on fuel costs.

While it is true that the renters are asked to fill the car up, they are advised to use a "gas card" to pay for the gas and the owners pay for that. The 29 cents includes fuel costs.

CarNextDoor

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Hi AustralianMustachio,

We're not going to pretend to be some random person who's used Car Next Door - this is us, Car Next Door. We hope you won't be offended that we've stepped in to this conversation.

We saw that there was a fair amount of confusion in this thread, and wanted to clarify a few points:

1: Firstly, in relation to depreciation: the biggest factor in depreciation is time. Your car depreciates every day just because it's getting older. Other factors, like the colour, model, and popularity of the car will also affect its resale value. Mileage is just one of these factors. If you're not driving the car much, the additional kilometres driven by borrowers are likely to just get your car to an 'average' mileage and won't affect the resale value significantly. Google 'how to calculate depreciation of a car' for calculators, or take a look at this article (not ours, but runs through the key arguments) http://blog.relayrides.com/2013/01/another-reason-why-relayrides-make-financial-sense/
2. Most cars that are rented out through Car Next Door are not brand new. A 5-year-old car has already done the bulk of its depreciation in the first few years of its life, and the depreciation cost per km is much lower than for the first 100km it drove fresh from the showroom. You can't calculate depreciation as a straight-line figure of 10c/km for its lifetime.
3. The $5/hr and $25/day rates are the cheapest available - generally for older cars. More expensive or newer cars are rented out for more like $8/hr and $40/day. You can set whatever rate you like for your car.
4. We keep really detailed stats on how far people drive for hourly and daily bookings. The average distance driven in a whole day is around 80km. For hourly bookings, the average is around 7km/hr. A borrower driving 120km in one hour is completely improbable and a really unrealistic figure to use.
5. The argument that 'if it was a winning proposition, the company would be buying the cars ..." doesn't make a lot of sense to us. There are plenty of car share companies that do just that, and that do make money from it. We think that from an environmental and social point of view, it makes a lot more sense to use the cars that are already sitting around idle, rather than buying new cars for people to share. It's crazy, in our view, that everyone has to bear these really high fixed costs of owning a car, whether or not they use it much.
6. It's hard to talk through every point in a discussion thread. If you'd like to give Megan a call on (02) 8035 8000, we would be really happy to talk through any questions or concerns you might have. It's a big step to let other people drive your car, and a lot of owners have questions about it. We've had a few owners who have decided that it's not for them, but many others who find that it's a lot easier than they thought, that they like the fact that their car isn't wasted anymore, and that it makes a big difference to their financial position. There's no joining fee or commitment, so you would be welcome to try it and see.

One last thing - yes, we have comprehensive insurance for everyone. The issue that eyem raised is relevant to a U.S. third-party liability scenario, and doesn't apply in Australia. We'd be happy to tell you more about that too if you're interested.

Thanks for listening - over & out.

(But by the way, we love this blog.)

Half-Borg

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Company reading MMM? Damn I love these guys, I need to move to Australia.

I guess the point of not buying there own cars any being a regular car rental is first an cash flow issue. CarNextDoor can work with very little investment. Second the 2 rental companies around the corner have most of their cars sitting around, which is costing them money. CarNextDoor has no problem with your car sitting around unused.

The prices look fair to me. I got about 25c/km for my car, including deprication, gas and oil.
So I would rent my car out for next to nothing + the hourly rate, which seems like a good deal to me.

I have looked into some other car sharing companies around here, but alltogether I'm not comfortable renting out my car, partly because I don't trust other people to drive and second because my car is always under construction and partly dismantled xD

zachd

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It sounds like a good business idea and it could be a good way to make some money on a car you aren't using much.

There was a similar start-up in the USA that has been controversial because it basically turned people who weren't busy and have cars in to a taxi service.  The Taxi Companies where I live weren't too happy about it and fought it.  Not sure where the debate has ended up. 

Guses

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Hi AustralianMustachio,

We're not going to pretend to be some random person who's used Car Next Door - this is us, Car Next Door. We hope you won't be offended that we've stepped in to this conversation.

We saw that there was a fair amount of confusion in this thread, and wanted to clarify a few points:

1: Firstly, in relation to depreciation: the biggest factor in depreciation is time. Your car depreciates every day just because it's getting older. Other factors, like the colour, model, and popularity of the car will also affect its resale value. Mileage is just one of these factors. If you're not driving the car much, the additional kilometres driven by borrowers are likely to just get your car to an 'average' mileage and won't affect the resale value significantly. Google 'how to calculate depreciation of a car' for calculators, or take a look at this article (not ours, but runs through the key arguments) http://blog.relayrides.com/2013/01/another-reason-why-relayrides-make-financial-sense/
2. Most cars that are rented out through Car Next Door are not brand new. A 5-year-old car has already done the bulk of its depreciation in the first few years of its life, and the depreciation cost per km is much lower than for the first 100km it drove fresh from the showroom. You can't calculate depreciation as a straight-line figure of 10c/km for its lifetime.
3. The $5/hr and $25/day rates are the cheapest available - generally for older cars. More expensive or newer cars are rented out for more like $8/hr and $40/day. You can set whatever rate you like for your car.
4. We keep really detailed stats on how far people drive for hourly and daily bookings. The average distance driven in a whole day is around 80km. For hourly bookings, the average is around 7km/hr. A borrower driving 120km in one hour is completely improbable and a really unrealistic figure to use.
5. The argument that 'if it was a winning proposition, the company would be buying the cars ..." doesn't make a lot of sense to us. There are plenty of car share companies that do just that, and that do make money from it. We think that from an environmental and social point of view, it makes a lot more sense to use the cars that are already sitting around idle, rather than buying new cars for people to share. It's crazy, in our view, that everyone has to bear these really high fixed costs of owning a car, whether or not they use it much.
6. It's hard to talk through every point in a discussion thread. If you'd like to give Megan a call on (02) 8035 8000, we would be really happy to talk through any questions or concerns you might have. It's a big step to let other people drive your car, and a lot of owners have questions about it. We've had a few owners who have decided that it's not for them, but many others who find that it's a lot easier than they thought, that they like the fact that their car isn't wasted anymore, and that it makes a big difference to their financial position. There's no joining fee or commitment, so you would be welcome to try it and see.

One last thing - yes, we have comprehensive insurance for everyone. The issue that eyem raised is relevant to a U.S. third-party liability scenario, and doesn't apply in Australia. We'd be happy to tell you more about that too if you're interested.

Thanks for listening - over & out.

(But by the way, we love this blog.)

1. If you had really read anything on this blog, you would know that this is false. Most true MMM adopters drive their cars to the ground or until the wheels fall off, whichever comes first. Each mile that someone else drives for you is one less mile for you to keep the car.
2. You are correct that straight line depreciation is not really a good model of depreciation. However, more realistic depreciation figures and running costs (hint: those that are linked to on your website to a RACQ report) still put the running cost of a car between 47 cents per KM to 1.30 $ per KM. I think MMM comes up with a relatively close figure as well.
3. Fair enough. Putting a higher price probably means less usage.
4. Yes, I realize that shorter distances maximize owner profit. However, as more people figure out that the owners are subsidizing heavy usage, it won't take long for people to start using it that way.
5. You have no argument from me here. I am not against the idea of car share, my point is that the owners are subsidizing the renters.
6. Are you open at Canada time :P? Hey, I would love to use your service... As a renter. Especially for those Montreal-Toronto-Ottawa business rides.

I think the most telling argument is the graph that is posted here:
http://www.carnextdoor.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CND-Graph.png

On the one hand you claim that owning a car and driving 15,000 KM per year costs $12K to the owner. And then you state that a heavy user driving the car 80 hours per month would spend 4,400$ per year to have the same utility.

At the 7KM per hour that you claim is the average number of KM driven for users(which I think is low), the heavy user is driving the car for almost 7,000KM worth over the course of a year.  That is almost half of the 15,000KM of your estimation.

Even worse, I assume that the 4,400$ includes your booking fees which means that the piece of the pie is much smaller for the owner.

I think that owners should go back and do the math again to make sure that they are really ahead of the game.




HappierAtHome

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Re: depreciation... my car is a 2008 model, I bought it in 2010, and it's now 2014. It sold brand new for $15k, I bought it for $13k, and according to insurance agents (and checking car sales etc) it's still worth $12k because I only put 5000kms on it every year at most. A friend of mine attempted to buy the same model recently and found that many of them were selling for 13 or 14 $k as they are just such reliable little cars that they have massive resale value.

For good quality cars that are going to last you ten or twenty years, depreciation occurs as you wear them out rather than as they age. (Though of course there was some immediate depreciation when the first owner drove it out of the sales yard - but I didn't take that hit and not many other MMMers do either).

CarNextDoor

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Hi Guses,

Sadly, we are in fact open Canada time - we have calls with our Canadian tech providers at ungodly hours. But if you call at 3am to discuss depreciation, I will cry.

We're going to put together a comprehensive blog post on this issue (#shamelesspromo "hey, guys, read our blog!" #endpromo).

But we'd like to point out in the meantime that this is not, in our considered opinion, likely to happen:
Quote
However, as more people figure out that the owners are subsidizing heavy usage, it won't take long for people to start using it that way.

Why? Because there are plenty of cheaper options around for driving long distances. If you want to drive hundreds of km (your business trips, for example), the 29c per km charge will add up to more than the cost of a daily rental from a regular hire car company, which usually comes with free km included. It just doesn't make sense for people to drive really long distances with this pricing structure. What it's best for - and what borrowers have overwhelmingly, in our observation, used it for - is those trips that aren't that far, but that are really hard to do without a car.

We have Harriet, who couldn't get her kids to Saturday sport without a car (but only drives about 7km in 3 hours); another guy who does his once-a-week access visit with his kids using a neighbour's car; a guy who plays in a band and takes his drum kit to gigs in a neighbour's van because taxis are too expensive, plenty of people who collect their flat-packed furniture from Ikea; a guy who commutes by bike, but needed to pick up his girlfriend to get to a family dinner across town ... people obviously don't tell us everything they do in the cars, but we do try to talk to members as much as we can to get a sense of how the service works for them. This is not a made up set of stories (though it does sound kind of like a TV show pitch). Neighbour-to-neighbour car sharing doesn't replace car rental (which is still best for long-distance trips), it fills in those awkward gaps for getting around town (or occasionally getting to the beach for the weekend) that public transport and bikes and walking don't fit.

There are a lot of people (in Australian cities - can't speak for Canada) who don't drive their car very much - they just have one in case they need it. But they are still paying the full whack of the 'standing' costs - interest on a loan, insurance, registration, roadside assistance subscriptions, and the time component of depreciation (which we still say is the biggest part of depreciation). By renting out their car when they're not using it, those people are able to share those fixed costs with other people who also don't drive all that much. So their costs, for getting the same utility from their car, go down. This kind of sharing doesn't actually add thousands of km to your odometer, and the additional km that it does add are not actually going to affect the resale value that much (IMHO) because they're most likely just getting you from below-average yearly distance closer to average yearly distance.

We don't have all of the answers and would certainly encourage people to do the sums themselves for their own cars, because there's so much variation in people's individual circumstances.

Interestingly, though, we've found so far that the world is roughly divided into those who think the whole concept of letting other people drive your car is crazy/dangerous/stupid (Hi, Mum!) and those who think it's a cool idea. The detailed sums are unlikely to either win over the former, or dissuade the latter. It's a little bit like climate change that way. (That is NOT an invitation to anyone to start discussing climate change.)









 

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