Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?

[kenmoremmm]

I'm thinking like 10,000 people or less.

Any issues you're finding with your town compared to your vision before you moved there?

[Metalcat]

I think you might need to ask a few more questions in order to get meaningful responses.

What are you expecting??

I grew up in a town of about 1000 people, and I could never ever live there. It's like never leaving highschool, drives me nuts.

[startingsmall]

I currently live in a town of 10k in the foothills. Hate it.

Everyone knows everyone, because they all grew up together.... despite living here for 12 years, I still am (and always will be) an outsider. Very uniform beliefs and limited diversity of ideas... for example 85% voted for the same presidential candidate, there is a very narrow range of whats "normal"/acceptable, kids are all expected to pursue the same activities with little respect for unique abilities/interests, etc. Little interest in education/intellectualism.

I think it depends a lot on the town, though. Maybe there are small towns out there that tend to have more newcomers/outsiders? If so, that would probably be a completely different situation.

[roomtempmayo]

I think it depends a lot on the town, though. Maybe there are small towns out there that tend to have more newcomers/outsiders? If so, that would probably be a completely different situation.

A town with at least one college/university will have enough churn to feel a little less stale.  There'll still be the townies who have all known each other since childhood, but there'll also be a group of people around with a broader perspective.

[Metalcat]

I currently live in a town of 10k in the foothills. Hate it.

Everyone knows everyone, because they all grew up together.... despite living here for 12 years, I still am (and always will be) an outsider. Very uniform beliefs and limited diversity of ideas... for example 85% voted for the same presidential candidate, there is a very narrow range of whats "normal"/acceptable, kids are all expected to pursue the same activities with little respect for unique abilities/interests, etc. Little interest in education/intellectualism.

I think it depends a lot on the town, though. Maybe there are small towns out there that tend to have more newcomers/outsiders? If so, that would probably be a completely different situation.

My small town is very different, it isn't very generational, and isn't a monoculture because people move there for the beauty and community, then their kids grow up and move away because it's boring and then they themselves move away when they are elderly. Even then, there's still a strong us vs. them contingent, and I am typically treated like a worthless tourist outsider when I visit until I inform them that I actually lived there decades before they did and that my entire family are pillars of their community, then I'm allowed to feel respected at the local pub that my mom used to own, that I literally grew up in.

However, at that point, the small town politics start up, so I often just stick with being disregarded as a tourist as it's less bullshit to deal with.

That said, all of the people I talk to who moved there absolutely love it and don't seem to mind living in a cultural fishbowl, they like the sense of community that comes with everyone being in everyone else's business.

[CowboyAndIndian]

I remember reading @spartana had done this.

[Greenback Reproduction Specialist]

However, at that point, the small town politics start up, so I often just stick with being disregarded as a tourist as it's less bullshit to deal with.

After being involved in a small mountain town for the last 5-6yrs, I feel this way as well. But, its always the talk when you visit a neighbor for drinks, and its always interesting.

The nearest town (15miles) was 500 people, so a little smaller than what you are looking at. But I found if you are just nice to people and not really try to act like you understand their problems, they are going to be nice in return. For example little things, like a local guy at the bar just had surgery, and I happened to have a cane, so the next day I brought it to the bar and asked the lady to hold it for him until he was in next. Or a spat came up between neighbors when one guy cut down a HUGE tree for firewood that another neighbor had gone through the state to get permission to cut down for wood. I happened to have a very large old dying tree of similar age on my property that needed to be cut down, so I let them have it. Or when a bobcat slid into a ditch plowing snow near my house and the guys wife was helping run cable to get it out in the freezing cold without gloves, I gave her a pair to use. Its really just the little things, for me it was almost easier to spot ways to help people out in a small town. Big cities are just a big mess of overwhelmed stressed out people and tough to deal with.

Another tip, remember when you move to a much smaller town, we would always joke about being on "Mountain Time", meaning things got done when they got done, not always when you want them to. Its not a big city rush to always get things done all the time, it took a little getting used to, but it sure is nice when you get a taste of it. But also can be frustrating when winter is around the corner and things need to get done.

[rantk81]

I grew up in a county where there was one city in the entire county. The population of the county was about 30K and the population of the city-proper was about 10K.

After I graduated from college and moved to Chicago for employment reasons, I never could quite understand why a lot of folks always said "Oh the people in Chicago are so nice to everyone."  Compared to the town where I grew up, most people are inconsiderate self-absorbed assholes here in the windy city.  Where I grew up, if you were pulled over on the side of a road, almost guaranteed one of the next couple cars would stop and they would ask if you needed any help.  Here in Chicago, you're lucky if the first car doesn't honk at you and flip you the bird because you're in their way.

[Sibley]

Reading these posts, there's a reason why you hear the same things in different flavors.

Small towns are going to tend to be certain way BECAUSE they're small towns. Yes, there will be variations, but they're probably going to be variations on a theme.

There's probably going to be an insider-outsider vibe.
There's probably going to be lots of politics.
There's probably going to be an "order" of life and if you mess it up it won't be looked on favorably.
You're going to have "Mountain Time" or whatever you want to call it, because they're NOT big cities where people tend to be in a rush. It's not "Mountain Time" - it's "we live life at a slower pace in general time".

If you don't like that stuff in general, then you either find one of the small towns that are an exception for whatever reason, or you don't live in a small town.

Stereotypes may not always be right, but they don't become stereotypes without reason.

[Metalcat]

^ same thing with cities, if you don't like people being impersonal and rude, if you value a relationship with your neighbours, if you don't like noise, if you hate traffic, and like to leave your doors unlocked, then a city probably isn't for you.

I just came back from a few days deep in the woods with my father, it's gorgeous and unbelievably peaceful, and I understand why he loves it, but I can't stand it for more than a few days. I say this as I sit on my balcony in my highrise apartment overlooking a major city street filled with loud traffic.

I would rather be screamed at by one of the strung out sex workers on my main street on my way to the bank rather than have the pharmacist mention that they were chatting with my mom the other day about my new apartment and have them give their opinion on the paint colour I chose. The former happened yesterday here at home, the latter happened over the weekend in my home town, I literally don't even know the damn pharmacist, but I was picking up my mom's meds and found out that my mom had been showing him photos of my new home. WTF?

NOTE: the small town experience is 1000 times more intense when your parents live there too.

[bacchi]

When does a small town stop actiing like a small town then? 30k population? 50k? 100k?

We're going to test out some small towns next year and this does not sound appealing.

[Metalcat]

When does a small town stop actiing like a small town then? 30k population? 50k? 100k?

We're going to test out some small towns next year and this does not sound appealing.

lol, funnily enough, I would take a very small town over a small city any day. I've lived in all of the above.

It's hard for me to put my finger on exactly why, but it feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

It's all very individual though. Go, explore, talk to people, learn what they love and what they hate and formulate your own preferences along the way. I think it's really hard to know what you might enjoy before experiencing it.

[Prodigal Daughter]

When does a small town stop actiing like a small town then? 30k population? 50k? 100k?

We're going to test out some small towns next year and this does not sound appealing.

Ha. I often wonder this. I live in a midwestern city of about 500,000 and at times it feels like you can't go anywhere without running into someone you know, but at the same time I've lived here 15 years and still often feel like an "outsider" because I didn't go to high school here.

[CptCool]

When does a small town stop actiing like a small town then? 30k population? 50k? 100k?

We're going to test out some small towns next year and this does not sound appealing.

I grew up in a town around 25k and feel like it definitely had the downfalls of a small-town community, but much less than that of 10k or less towns while still keeping the good parts of small town life. I.e. Friendly with the neighbors, but they didn't know everything about personal life unless you wanted to share with them. It seems like 50k up to 100k is the sweet spot where you lose almost all of the small town politics & gossiping though

[habanero]

It seems like 50k up to 100k is the sweet spot where you lose almost all of the small town politics & gossiping though

100k would be the 6th largest and 50k the 11th largest urban area where I live... as in the entire country.

I think a few factors are more important than number of people living there.
- does it have a univeristy / some form of higher education establishment ?
- does it see a siginficant number of tourists / seasonal residents ?
- is it close to a major city or or not?
- what's the local economy activity like? Diverse? Mostly white-collar type of work or the opposite?
- probably a lot of other things

[wageslave23]

I grew up in a county where there was one city in the entire county. The population of the county was about 30K and the population of the city-proper was about 10K.

After I graduated from college and moved to Chicago for employment reasons, I never could quite understand why a lot of folks always said "Oh the people in Chicago are so nice to everyone."  Compared to the town where I grew up, most people are inconsiderate self-absorbed assholes here in the windy city.  Where I grew up, if you were pulled over on the side of a road, almost guaranteed one of the next couple cars would stop and they would ask if you needed any help.  Here in Chicago, you're lucky if the first car doesn't honk at you and flip you the bird because you're in their way.

I lived in the Chicago area for almost 35 yrs and I've never heard someone use Nice and Chicagoans in the same sentence.  Maybe in comparison to New Yorkers.  But otherwise Chicago is known for mean, selfish, impatient people.

[jeninco]

We live in a town of about 120,000 with a major state university, and it feels like a sweet spot to me. (I grew up in a major east coast city.) I recognize neighbors (and lots of other people -- it's a rare to attend an event with hundreds of people and not recognize a few) and the university brings in major music/theatre/performance arty things. There's enough infrastructure for things to basically work, but it's small enough that biking around town is feasible (and often faster than driving).

This may not be your typical town of this size, but I bet it's somewhat representative of University towns.

[CptCool]

It seems like 50k up to 100k is the sweet spot where you lose almost all of the small town politics & gossiping though

100k would be the 6th largest and 50k the 11th largest urban area where I live... as in the entire country.

I think a few factors are more important than number of people living there.
- does it have a univeristy / some form of higher education establishment ?
- does it see a siginficant number of tourists / seasonal residents ?
- is it close to a major city or or not?
- what's the local economy activity like? Diverse? Mostly white-collar type of work or the opposite?
- probably a lot of other things

That is a very good point. My comment was very much USA-specific as I haven't lived anywhere else for more than 6 months at a time. It would likely be very culturally specific and I think all of your bullet points make a lot of sense, especially the last one :)

[Metalcat]

Ah yes, proximity to a major city is a HUGE factor.

It's one thing to live in a small town where the nearest repository of varied medical specialists and specialty shopping is within a reasonable driving distance for an afternoon excursion, it's another thing when basic supplies need to be flown in.

[Watchmaker]

I live in a small town of a few thousand people. If I'd grown up here, I could never stay (as someone said, it would be like never leaving high school). I tell all of the teenagers I know to leave town--and come back one day if they want to.

But I didn't grow up here: I moved here as an adult and I have no family in the area (apart from my SO).

Yes, there is an insider/outsider culture. In my town the split is between the "townies" and the "artist" community.
Yes, there is small town politics. But as long as you are friendly, positive and don't gossip, you can largely stay out of it.
Yes, things move slower than in a city (I like this).
Most of the other stereotypes are true as well: we don't lock our doors, we know our neighbors, etc.

The key, I think, is finding a small town that attracts enough outsiders that it is not a mono-culture.

I also love big cities. Like Malkynn said, I find small cities to have the worst of both worlds.

[Schaefer Light]

We live in a town of about 120,000 with a major state university, and it feels like a sweet spot to me.

I like towns of that size.  They're big enough to have everything you need, but small enough that traffic isn't terrible.

[startingsmall]

When does a small town stop actiing like a small town then? 30k population? 50k? 100k?

We're going to test out some small towns next year and this does not sound appealing.

I think it really depends. The city that I grew up in technically has a listed population of 55k, but the county population is 400k and basically the entire county functions as one big city. That city has a COMPLETELY different feel than a town that I previously lived in, which had a population of 40k (relatively similar) but was surrounded by nothing.

Also, anything that attracts people and increases turnover probably helps. College, a tourist/resort location, etc. Are there a lot of newcomers to that area or is it an area that doesn't tend to have newcomers?

We live in a town of about 120,000 with a major state university, and it feels like a sweet spot to me.

I like towns of that size.  They're big enough to have everything you need, but small enough that traffic isn't terrible.

We're targeting mid-sized cities with colleges. I went to school in Gainesville, FL (population 130k) and that was a comfortable size for me. Our FIRE destination is Wilmington, NC, which is relatively similar in demographics to Gainesville.... population 120k, has a college (although the enrollment is only 1/3 the size of UF), and also has the perk of being a location that seems to attract newcomers. We still have some more research to do, but it seems like it will be a good fit.

[use2betrix]

I grew up in a small northern town of around 5000 people. I have lived in probably 15-20 towns/cities in my life ranging from a few hundred (for over a year) up to several million for a couple years.

I feel like the sweet spot is around 50k-150k. I do like to be within driving distance of a major airport (i.e. 1.5 hours or less).

I have dreamed of FIRE in a small “real” mountainous town like Ouray, CO. I do feel that it is slightly too small however. It’s around 1,000 permanent residents with no decent sized city for quite a distance.

I spent a fair amount of time visiting Loveland, CO. It is nestled between Denver and Fort Collins, and around 75k population. I do feel like I would like to live maybe 15 minutes to the west of there into the mountains. I’d be close to the city amenities, but far enough from the constant day to day hustle when I don’t want to be.

Since my wife and I have moved so much and have family spread all over, it’s going to take a LOT of work deciding where we want to settle down for FIRE permanently. Likely will be in our mid to late 30’s with no real ties to anywhere. I do predict somewhere with snow, in the mountains.

[Watchmaker]

I have dreamed of FIRE in a small “real” mountainous town like Ouray, CO. I do feel that it is slightly too small however. It’s around 1,000 permanent residents with no decent sized city for quite a distance.

I love Ouray (I was just there a couple weeks ago), but yes, I think that would be a hard place to retire to. Montrose is the closest "city" and there isn't much there. Plus the very real risk in winter that you can't get out of Ouray.

[FireHiker]

I have dreamed of FIRE in a small “real” mountainous town like Ouray, CO. I do feel that it is slightly too small however. It’s around 1,000 permanent residents with no decent sized city for quite a distance.

Ooh, we visited Ouray this summer when my brother ran (half of) the Ouray 100. It was awesome!! But, my husband said he can't live in a place that small. We're leaning towards Durango, CO as a potential FIRE destination. I think it's about 16k?

[Hula Hoop]

All of this sounds exactly like what my husband says about his working class hometown of a bit less than 10k people.  He does not fit the mold -loves to read, interested in the outside world, not into fishing or hunting so he ended up leaving town to go to university and never looked back.  Whenever we visit his family in his hometown I'm dying by day 3 or so.  I remember asking a relative what people do on the weekends in hometown and her reply was "watch TV".  That seemed to pretty much sum it up. 

One thing that makes small towns in Europe even more insular is that people speak very strong local dialects (DH's dislect has completely different grammar and vocabulary from the national language).  In my husband's hometown they speak a strong local dialect that is incomprehensible to outsiders even from an hour's drive away.  It's therefore even more impossible to ever become an insider as learning the dialect to native level is virtually impossible if you didn't grow up there.

[bacchi]

We live in a town of about 120,000 with a major state university, and it feels like a sweet spot to me.

I like towns of that size.  They're big enough to have everything you need, but small enough that traffic isn't terrible.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way. We're looking at 10k towns and they don't have the team sports that I like to play or the nearest decent sized hardware store is 45 minutes away. Cities 1M+ obviously do but they're expensive and the traffic sucks.

It's definitely a goldielocks problem.

[Watchmaker]

All of this sounds exactly like what my husband says about his working class hometown of a bit less than 10k people.  He does not fit the mold -loves to read, interested in the outside world, not into fishing or hunting so he ended up leaving town to go to university and never looked back.  Whenever we visit his family in his hometown I'm dying by day 3 or so.  I remember asking a relative what people do on the weekends in hometown and her reply was "watch TV".  That seemed to pretty much sum it up. 

This isn't really directed at you Hula Hoop-- I get the point you are making-- but a pet peeve of mine is when people say things like "How can you live in such a small town" or "What do people even do there?" (I get this from my SIL all the time).

Uh, in the last month in my small town we've had a 3-day Pride celebration, had Filipino, Thai, and Mexican food at restaurants, visited a half dozen art galleries (and my SO had a show of her paintings at one of them), hiked on the 40 mile trail that starts in town, and partied with art professors, well known anti-war and gay rights activists, award-winning cheese makers, authors, and lots of other interesting people. And we were gone for two of the last four weeks ;)

[Metalcat]

All of this sounds exactly like what my husband says about his working class hometown of a bit less than 10k people.  He does not fit the mold -loves to read, interested in the outside world, not into fishing or hunting so he ended up leaving town to go to university and never looked back.  Whenever we visit his family in his hometown I'm dying by day 3 or so.  I remember asking a relative what people do on the weekends in hometown and her reply was "watch TV".  That seemed to pretty much sum it up. 

This isn't really directed at you Hula Hoop-- I get the point you are making-- but a pet peeve of mine is when people say things like "How can you live in such a small town" or "What do people even do there?" (I get this from my SIL all the time).

Uh, in the last month in my small town we've had a 3-day Pride celebration, had Filipino, Thai, and Mexican food at restaurants, visited a half dozen art galleries (and my SO had a show of her paintings at one of them), hiked on the 40 mile trail that starts in town, and partied with art professors, well known anti-war and gay rights activists, award-winning cheese makers, authors, and lots of other interesting people. And we were gone for two of the last four weeks ;)

Good point, my hometown of 1000 people is at least 20% artists and musicians, has a nationally renowned music venue that major acts come through regularly, plus many amazing restaurants, a rich range of community activities, 2 ski hills and 2 golf clubs. 10 minutes away is another small town that has a completely different culture, it almost entirely revolves around outdoor sports.

There are certain things you can generalize to small populations, but activities and community culture isn't really one of them.
These types of places need to be explored individually to be understood. As previously mentioned, proximity to a major urban center can have a huge impact on this because it opens up the market of the local businesses. However, then you have the reality of your small town also being a tourist destination, so there are trade offs.

[Hula Hoop]

All of this sounds exactly like what my husband says about his working class hometown of a bit less than 10k people.  He does not fit the mold -loves to read, interested in the outside world, not into fishing or hunting so he ended up leaving town to go to university and never looked back.  Whenever we visit his family in his hometown I'm dying by day 3 or so.  I remember asking a relative what people do on the weekends in hometown and her reply was "watch TV".  That seemed to pretty much sum it up. 

This isn't really directed at you Hula Hoop-- I get the point you are making-- but a pet peeve of mine is when people say things like "How can you live in such a small town" or "What do people even do there?" (I get this from my SIL all the time).

Uh, in the last month in my small town we've had a 3-day Pride celebration, had Filipino, Thai, and Mexican food at restaurants, visited a half dozen art galleries (and my SO had a show of her paintings at one of them), hiked on the 40 mile trail that starts in town, and partied with art professors, well known anti-war and gay rights activists, award-winning cheese makers, authors, and lots of other interesting people. And we were gone for two of the last four weeks ;)

Precisely none of those things are available in the small town I'm talking about. As I mentioned, it's a working class town not near any cities.  They have one "ethnic" restaurant, which is bad Chinese.  No artists, gay-rights activists or award winning cheesemakers that I've ever heard about and I've been there multiple times and heard lots of stories from DH.  Husband says that he was considered the town oddball as a kid and beaten up regularly as he loved to read and wore glasses and had no interest in fixing cars or other "manly" pursuits.  The area is beautiful but the mentality is very different from, say, a college town or a richer town with more educated people.

I lived briefly in a college town in the US and it was completely different.  Obviously, there were many college educated and "rich" people around - which made it a very different experience.

[Watchmaker]

Precisely none of those things are available in the small town I'm talking about. As I mentioned, it's a working class town not near any cities.  They have one "ethnic" restaurant, which is bad Chinese.  No artists, gay-rights activists or award winning cheesemakers that I've ever heard about and I've been there multiple times and heard lots of stories from DH.  Husband says that he was considered the town oddball as a kid and beaten up regularly as he loved to read and wore glasses and had no interest in fixing cars or other "manly" pursuits.  The area is beautiful but the mentality is very different from, say, a college town or a richer town with more educated people.

I know plenty of towns like that too, but I bristle a bit when people tar all small towns with the same brush. My small town is largely a working class town, it's not particularly near any cities, and there's no nearby college. But it is better than your husband's hometown in just about every way, it sounds like. And I've been in plenty of cities that weren't any better than what he describes, so I just don't view it as a big/small thing.

Again I'm not having a go at you, I'm just venting about a common annoyance of mine.

[Villanelle]

I grew up in a county where there was one city in the entire county. The population of the county was about 30K and the population of the city-proper was about 10K.

After I graduated from college and moved to Chicago for employment reasons, I never could quite understand why a lot of folks always said "Oh the people in Chicago are so nice to everyone."  Compared to the town where I grew up, most people are inconsiderate self-absorbed assholes here in the windy city.  Where I grew up, if you were pulled over on the side of a road, almost guaranteed one of the next couple cars would stop and they would ask if you needed any help.  Here in Chicago, you're lucky if the first car doesn't honk at you and flip you the bird because you're in their way.

I think this illustrates how there are different kinds of "nice" and what works for one person, or not, is going to depend on which kind of nice they most value.  I find small towns to be exceptionally judgy and gossipy.  Yes, they will definitely say "hello" more often and you are more likely to have an inhabitant pull over if your car is broken down.  But they will also gossip like it's still high school, judge anyone who deviates even half a step from what they consider "normal" (generally very narrowly defined), don't foster any sense of privacy, and tend to be exceptionally tribal.  To me, it has always seems like they are nicer to your face, but also meaner behind your back, where as larger towns where not everyone knows everyone, you are less likely to get day to day friendliness and assistance, but they are also more accepting and less invested in everyone's personal business.

As you might guess, I'd sacrofice a WHOLE LOT to avoid living in a small town!  I can see what people love them, and there are wonderful things about them.  But as an intensely private and slightly odd person (among other reasons) they are not for me. 

(And of course, as always, there are exeptions to every rule, and it also depends on how one defines "small town".)

[FireHiker]

This isn't really directed at you Hula Hoop-- I get the point you are making-- but a pet peeve of mine is when people say things like "How can you live in such a small town" or "What do people even do there?" (I get this from my SIL all the time).

Uh, in the last month in my small town we've had a 3-day Pride celebration, had Filipino, Thai, and Mexican food at restaurants, visited a half dozen art galleries (and my SO had a show of her paintings at one of them), hiked on the 40 mile trail that starts in town, and partied with art professors, well known anti-war and gay rights activists, award-winning cheese makers, authors, and lots of other interesting people. And we were gone for two of the last four weeks ;)

Um, your small town sounds amazing. I may message you in five years to chat. ;)

[NV Teacher]

Grew up in a small town and live and work in a small town.  I love it.  You have to know what small towns are like.  Don’t talk crap about people because more than likely someone in the room is related to them.  Sit back, watch, listen, and learn. 

[alienbogey]

I would rather be screamed at by one of the strung out sex workers on my main street on my way to the bank rather than have the pharmacist mention that they were chatting with my mom the other day about my new apartment and have them give their opinion on the paint colour I chose.

Wow, the first scenario (screamed at by prostitute in city) sounds like a nightmare to me while having the small town pharmacist recognize me and mention a recent chat with my mother sounds lovely.

I'm not making this observation to say I'm right and you're wrong, but rather to express my oft-recurring surprise at how often something that is fingernails-on-chalkboard to me can be attractive to someone else.  And vice versa.

I grew up in an unincorporated area where the school district had one (1) school, a K-8, and we were sent to an adjoining school district that had a high school.  After college I worked for a year on a 28th floor in San Francisco and lived on a 14th floor.  While I can understand some of the attractions,  I never, ever, ever, want to live in a city again. 

But, millions to tens of millions of people live in cities and, presumably, at least some of them actually want to live in them.  Good for them.  One of my best friends from college still lives in the City and thinks it's the center of the universe.

Back to small towns.  My wife and I will likely seek one once we FIRE.   We'll choose it carefully, hopefully correctly, and we've been talking about spending some time, like a month or two or more, in an RV in or near the town before buying in the area.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I came from a tiny mountain town and I would have to say that culturally it might be a bit of a shock but mountain folk tend to be quite helpful and kind if you are respectful and participate in the community. One factor that would help you do extra well is if you have a whole lot of money. Mountain folk will think good things of you if you have that.

[Metalcat]

I would rather be screamed at by one of the strung out sex workers on my main street on my way to the bank rather than have the pharmacist mention that they were chatting with my mom the other day about my new apartment and have them give their opinion on the paint colour I chose.

Wow, the first scenario (screamed at by prostitute in city) sounds like a nightmare to me while having the small town pharmacist recognize me and mention a recent chat with my mother sounds lovely.

That was my whole point, some people will thrive in small towns and some won't, same with the city. It's a personality thing. My hell is another person's heaven, it can just be a bit tricky for someone who has never tried it to predict if they will enjoy it.

[rantk81]

Wow, the first scenario (screamed at by prostitute in city) sounds like a nightmare to me while having the small town pharmacist recognize me and mention a recent chat with my mother sounds lovely.

After growing up in a small town, and now living and working in a big city, I'm firmly in agreement with @alienbogey about this!  I don't even want to begin to explain the horrendous behaviors I've been exposed to while living 15 years in Chicago.  I will be leaving when I pull the rip-cord on FIRE.  A little bit of gossip, talking-behind-my-back, or small-town politics doesn't really get to me.  Being regularly exposed to drugs/drug-users, crazy people, people who make me feel unsafe, being robbed, being physically threatened when minding my own business on the train -- etc...  That's just too much for me.

I occasionally read the online newspaper from the small town where I grew up -- and I read through several weeks worth of the "crimes reported & police activity" section -- and all I can do is chuckle.  Complaints about neighbors shoveling snow onto other neighbors sidewalks, disputes about picking an apple off of a neighbor's tree, etc.  LOL!  With that kind of crime, I can deal!  :D

[Mtngrl]

It depends on the town, and on your expectations. We moved from a Denver suburb to a small mountain town and it's the best fit for us of any place in our lives. But this is a community with a mix of long-time residents and newcomers, one with a lot of intellectual and social activities, diverse beliefs and ideas. It's very outdoors-oriented, so attracts people who are into hiking, climbing, skiing, fishing, etc. There's an active community theatre and a pretty good live music scene.  We've made tons of friends. There is not a lot of shopping, not a lot of night life in the form of clubs, no professional sports teams, no pizza delivery, no movie theater. Before we moved here, we visited probably a dozen times and took the local paper for a couple of years, so we had a good idea what we were getting into. But it's not for everyone. I'd say before anyone makes a move like this, it might be helpful to make a list of activities and amenities that are important to you and try to define what you're looking for with the move.

[FireDAD]

I live in Estes Park, CO. A town of roughly 6,000 residents with 5 million annual visitors. Here are the pros/cons.

Pros:
My favorite hobbies are here and the experience associated with them are the best in the world
Trail running? We have 2 of the top 10 trails in the world
Backcountry skiing? - Again, some of the best in the world
Climbing? - Some of the best in the US
Cycling? - Trail Ridge road is a bucket list item for people. I can ride it once a week
Weather- I would argue it's hard to beat it. Summer highs in the low 80's with fairly mild winters. Winter wind is about the only downside.
The view from my house is basically a post card - I see snow 365 days a year on Long's Peak. It's stupid the beauty I look at each day.
Wildlife- Champion elk hang out in my driveway and have made me late to places many times. Mountain lions, bears, bobcats, moose, bighorn sheep. I have seen all of these from my deck more times than I can count.




Cons:
Small town politics are the absolute fucking worst. Last night we had a recall election because of...... just people that have nothing better to do.
I am a fairly public official here and our newspaper is so corrupt it's not even funny and they use their weight to push agendas. It's so crazy here.
The tourists are EVERYWHERE for 7 months a year. There are trails and areas I 100% avoid for half the year.
Groceries- We have 1 overpriced and overcrowded Safeway. We typically drive 45 minutes - 1 hour to access a grocery store, costco, or any other small purchase. Consider that it is a 45 minute drive to get to any of these places to you for granted - Walgreens, Target, Wal-mart, whole foods, sprouts, costco/sams club, car dealerships, etc.
Conveniences - Look, we are all frugal but sometimes you just want to order something. We don't have any food delivery apps, no uber, lyft, 1 dominos that delivers and that's it.
Maybe not a downfall but we have 1 McDonalds and a subway. That's it for fast food. I get that we all hate that stuff, but once every few months you really want something quick and easy? You have almost no options and that does get old.

Summary - I have seen so many people move here and then leave 1-2 years later. It is not for everyone and the more reliant you are on the conveniences of modern life the more you will want to leave and return to that.
If you are willing to live a little differently than it is absolutely amazing.

[ecchastang]

I live in Estes Park, CO. A town of roughly 6,000 residents with 5 million annual visitors. Here are the pros/cons.

Pros:
My favorite hobbies are here and the experience associated with them are the best in the world
Trail running? We have 2 of the top 10 trails in the world
Backcountry skiing? - Again, some of the best in the world
Climbing? - Some of the best in the US
Cycling? - Trail Ridge road is a bucket list item for people. I can ride it once a week
Weather- I would argue it's hard to beat it. Summer highs in the low 80's with fairly mild winters. Winter wind is about the only downside.
The view from my house is basically a post card - I see snow 365 days a year on Long's Peak. It's stupid the beauty I look at each day.
Wildlife- Champion elk hang out in my driveway and have made me late to places many times. Mountain lions, bears, bobcats, moose, bighorn sheep. I have seen all of these from my deck more times than I can count.




Cons:
Small town politics are the absolute fucking worst. Last night we had a recall election because of...... just people that have nothing better to do.
I am a fairly public official here and our newspaper is so corrupt it's not even funny and they use their weight to push agendas. It's so crazy here.
The tourists are EVERYWHERE for 7 months a year. There are trails and areas I 100% avoid for half the year.
Groceries- We have 1 overpriced and overcrowded Safeway. We typically drive 45 minutes - 1 hour to access a grocery store, costco, or any other small purchase. Consider that it is a 45 minute drive to get to any of these places to you for granted - Walgreens, Target, Wal-mart, whole foods, sprouts, costco/sams club, car dealerships, etc.
Conveniences - Look, we are all frugal but sometimes you just want to order something. We don't have any food delivery apps, no uber, lyft, 1 dominos that delivers and that's it.
Maybe not a downfall but we have 1 McDonalds and a subway. That's it for fast food. I get that we all hate that stuff, but once every few months you really want something quick and easy? You have almost no options and that does get old.

Summary - I have seen so many people move here and then leave 1-2 years later. It is not for everyone and the more reliant you are on the conveniences of modern life the more you will want to leave and return to that.
If you are willing to live a little differently than it is absolutely amazing.

I live not far from Estes and I view it as pretty much the worst mountain town I have ever spent time in due to many of the negatives you have already listed. 

[Watchmaker]

I live in Estes Park, CO. A town of roughly 6,000 residents with 5 million annual visitors. Here are the pros/cons.

Pros:
My favorite hobbies are here and the experience associated with them are the best in the world
Trail running? We have 2 of the top 10 trails in the world
Backcountry skiing? - Again, some of the best in the world
Climbing? - Some of the best in the US
Cycling? - Trail Ridge road is a bucket list item for people. I can ride it once a week
Weather- I would argue it's hard to beat it. Summer highs in the low 80's with fairly mild winters. Winter wind is about the only downside.
The view from my house is basically a post card - I see snow 365 days a year on Long's Peak. It's stupid the beauty I look at each day.
Wildlife- Champion elk hang out in my driveway and have made me late to places many times. Mountain lions, bears, bobcats, moose, bighorn sheep. I have seen all of these from my deck more times than I can count.




Cons:
Small town politics are the absolute fucking worst. Last night we had a recall election because of...... just people that have nothing better to do.
I am a fairly public official here and our newspaper is so corrupt it's not even funny and they use their weight to push agendas. It's so crazy here.
The tourists are EVERYWHERE for 7 months a year. There are trails and areas I 100% avoid for half the year.
Groceries- We have 1 overpriced and overcrowded Safeway. We typically drive 45 minutes - 1 hour to access a grocery store, costco, or any other small purchase. Consider that it is a 45 minute drive to get to any of these places to you for granted - Walgreens, Target, Wal-mart, whole foods, sprouts, costco/sams club, car dealerships, etc.
Conveniences - Look, we are all frugal but sometimes you just want to order something. We don't have any food delivery apps, no uber, lyft, 1 dominos that delivers and that's it.
Maybe not a downfall but we have 1 McDonalds and a subway. That's it for fast food. I get that we all hate that stuff, but once every few months you really want something quick and easy? You have almost no options and that does get old.

Summary - I have seen so many people move here and then leave 1-2 years later. It is not for everyone and the more reliant you are on the conveniences of modern life the more you will want to leave and return to that.
If you are willing to live a little differently than it is absolutely amazing.

My parents live in a different small Colorado mountain town. I love Colorado and agree with all your positives. But the congestion from tourists seems to have gotten so much worse over the last decade (I am aware that I am part of the problem). Combine that with the fact that there are only a handful of E/W roads through the mountains and the traffic is often a nightmare which only seems to be getting worse.

[Villanelle]

Wow, the first scenario (screamed at by prostitute in city) sounds like a nightmare to me while having the small town pharmacist recognize me and mention a recent chat with my mother sounds lovely.

After growing up in a small town, and now living and working in a big city, I'm firmly in agreement with @alienbogey about this!  I don't even want to begin to explain the horrendous behaviors I've been exposed to while living 15 years in Chicago.  I will be leaving when I pull the rip-cord on FIRE.  A little bit of gossip, talking-behind-my-back, or small-town politics doesn't really get to me.  Being regularly exposed to drugs/drug-users, crazy people, people who make me feel unsafe, being robbed, being physically threatened when minding my own business on the train -- etc...  That's just too much for me.

I occasionally read the online newspaper from the small town where I grew up -- and I read through several weeks worth of the "crimes reported & police activity" section -- and all I can do is chuckle.  Complaints about neighbors shoveling snow onto other neighbors sidewalks, disputes about picking an apple off of a neighbor's tree, etc.  LOL!  With that kind of crime, I can deal!  :D

I agree that this sounds awful.  But I think there are ways to live in smaller cities/larger towns where you are unlikely to have those things, but also don't have to deal with the small-town negatives you mention.  I'm not trying to talk you or anyone out of a small town.  I can definitely see the attraction, even if it doesn't resonate in me.  But I think it's a false dichotomy to suggest it's small towns, or drug- and crime-riddled super cities.

I live in the greater DC area.  I can walk to everything I need (and plenty I don't), and be in the city in about 20 minutes.  Yesterday, and friend and I drove in to DC to spend a couple hours wandering a free Smithsonian museum.  Yet where I live, I've never been threatened or made to feel unsafe, or seen anyone using drugs.  And we haven't lived here yet during winter, but I'm told neighbor sidewalk shoveling is in full effect.  DH has already said he plans to shovel for our next door neighbors, who are in their 80s (at least) and live with their son who is probably well in to his 60s. 

Chicago is one of the biggest cities in the US and as such, it has the problems associated with massive super-cities. I wouldn't want to retire there either.  (Well, it's been years since I've been there, so I can't say for sure, but I feel it's a pretty safe bet.) There are plenty of options in between that and Mayberry. 

[bluebelle]

I currently live in Canada's largest city, Toronto, I've never particularly enjoyed it, and after 20+ years I hate it....the noise, dirt, traffic congestion, rudeness/self centre-ness of people.   I'm so over it.  But working in IT, that's where the jobs are.  I now work 100% remote, and DH retires in 9 months.   We're moving 15 minutes outside a town of 1,000 people and 30 minutes outside a town of 20,000.   But we'll be in cottage country, lake-front.   This area explodes in the summer with the 'rich Toronto' folk who own vacation homes there......I will not be one of those people talking about how things are better in the city.   Because of the wealth (or willingness to be in debt) of the 'city folk' (they have 2+ million dollar second homes), there will always be a way to get any exotic ingredient I need for recipes, or it's the cost of anyone wanting to visit me - "pick up X".
What I'm looking forward to - more isolation, both DH and I are quite happy on our own, easy access to great motorcycling roads, walking trails, snowshoe trails, snow mobile trails, boating, fishing, community events (small town fairs).   I don't find that Toronto has any sense of community, I live in the north end of Toronto, that was a suburb 30 years ago.   No sense of community at all.....I'm looking forward to being part of a community.   The only thing we won't be successful with is 'stealth wealth'.....we bought nearly 3 acres of water front, and are building a custom built house....even driving my 17 year old Forester, people will figure it out.........although in the little community we bought in, I think we're the 'poor' neighbors.   We only bought 1 lot, not 2 or 4 like the others, it will be our only home, not somewhere we summer or visit occasionally.   

maybe when I'm under 4 feet of snow in the winter, I'll feel otherwise, but I don't think I will....To each their own.  I know people who thrive in the down-town vibe of a big city, I'm just not one of them.

[Watchmaker]

A little bit of gossip, talking-behind-my-back, or small-town politics doesn't really get to me.  Being regularly exposed to drugs/drug-users, crazy people, people who make me feel unsafe, being robbed, being physically threatened when minding my own business on the train -- etc...  That's just too much for me.

I agree that this sounds awful.  But I think there are ways to live in smaller cities/larger towns where you are unlikely to have those things, but also don't have to deal with the small-town negatives you mention.  I'm not trying to talk you or anyone out of a small town.  I can definitely see the attraction, even if it doesn't resonate in me.  But I think it's a false dichotomy to suggest it's small towns, or drug- and crime-riddled super cities.

Drugs are not only a problem in big cities, either. Many small cities also have significant drug and crime problems, as do many small towns. Even the town I live in (whose praises I have been singing in this thread) has some meth related problems.

I occasionally read the online newspaper from the small town where I grew up -- and I read through several weeks worth of the "crimes reported & police activity" section -- and all I can do is chuckle.  Complaints about neighbors shoveling snow onto other neighbors sidewalks, disputes about picking an apple off of a neighbor's tree, etc.  LOL!  With that kind of crime, I can deal!  :D

Sure, but when you adjust to per capita rates, many small towns are no safer that big cities. Part of city life is that you "live with" more people, so there will be more crime in your area. But whether you are actually any likelier to be a victim of a crime is more complicated.

[rantk81]

Sure, but when you adjust to per capita rates, many small towns are no safer that big cities. Part of city life is that you "live with" more people, so there will be more crime in your area. But whether you are actually any likelier to be a victim of a crime is more complicated.

(Anecdotal... but what I'm using for my own frame of reference:)

Per neighborhoodscout crime stats, big city says 11 violent crimes per 1000 people, per year......  versus small town, 6 violent crimes per 1000 per year.  So half'ish?  Property crime numbers per 1000 are closer together, but the big city is still significantly worse.  Also, (in my experience), crimes are more likely to be reported to police (and included in statistics) in a smaller town than in a big city.  I've certainly been brushed off by CPD when trying to file a report -- and got vibe from them of "we got bigger fish to fry than this... I'll humor you and write this down, but don't expect anything to be done about it..."  and so the next (several) times, I didn't even bother to report...

[bacchi]

Sure, but when you adjust to per capita rates, many small towns are no safer that big cities. Part of city life is that you "live with" more people, so there will be more crime in your area. But whether you are actually any likelier to be a victim of a crime is more complicated.

(Anecdotal... but what I'm using for my own frame of reference:)

Per neighborhoodscout crime stats, big city says 11 violent crimes per 1000 people, per year......  versus small town, 6 violent crimes per 1000 per year.  So half'ish?  Property crime numbers per 1000 are closer together, but the big city is still significantly worse.  Also, (in my experience), crimes are more likely to be reported to police (and included in statistics) in a smaller town than in a big city.  I've certainly been brushed off by CPD when trying to file a report -- and got vibe from them of "we got bigger fish to fry than this... I'll humor you and write this down, but don't expect anything to be done about it..."  and so the next (several) times, I didn't even bother to report...

I wonder how much of this is related to the larger population and the greater area instead of an inherent problem with too many people stacked too closely?

As in, there are neighborhoods that are sketchy in any city. Violent crime is much higher there.

Take one drug-related murder/month on the other side of town but in your first-ring suburb there aren't any murders. Combine the 2. You never see people lying in the street but there are 6 murders/year when viewed as a single unit.

I have noticed that property crimes are higher near colleges. I expect this is more of an opportunity crime -- a student leaves their phone in the car and someone walks by and grabs it.

[Villanelle]

Sure, but when you adjust to per capita rates, many small towns are no safer that big cities. Part of city life is that you "live with" more people, so there will be more crime in your area. But whether you are actually any likelier to be a victim of a crime is more complicated.

(Anecdotal... but what I'm using for my own frame of reference:)

Per neighborhoodscout crime stats, big city says 11 violent crimes per 1000 people, per year......  versus small town, 6 violent crimes per 1000 per year.  So half'ish?  Property crime numbers per 1000 are closer together, but the big city is still significantly worse.  Also, (in my experience), crimes are more likely to be reported to police (and included in statistics) in a smaller town than in a big city.  I've certainly been brushed off by CPD when trying to file a report -- and got vibe from them of "we got bigger fish to fry than this... I'll humor you and write this down, but don't expect anything to be done about it..."  and so the next (several) times, I didn't even bother to report...

I wonder how much of this is related to the larger population and the greater area instead of an inherent problem with too many people stacked too closely?

As in, there are neighborhoods that are sketchy in any city. Violent crime is much higher there.

Take one drug-related murder/month on the other side of town but in your first-ring suburb there aren't any murders. Combine the 2. You never see people lying in the street but there are 6 murders/year when viewed as a single unit.

I have noticed that property crimes are higher near colleges. I expect this is more of an opportunity crime -- a student leaves their phone in the car and someone walks by and grabs it.

Right.  In most larger cities, there are safe and less safe areas (just as there are expensive/cheaper, louder/quieter, etc.).  Looking at the stats for an absolutley massive city doesn't capture the picture.  Sure, if you choose to live in some parts of South-Central LA, you are going to see some things.  If you live in Beverly Hills, you will avoid many of those things.  Looking at a stat for a massive area with 2.5 million people and many, varied areas doesn't really paint an accurate picture of what it is like for everyone who lives there.  For some, that number would be grossly optimistic, and for others, ridiculously dire.

[Just Joe]

I think it depends a lot on the town, though. Maybe there are small towns out there that tend to have more newcomers/outsiders? If so, that would probably be a completely different situation.

A town with at least one college/university will have enough churn to feel a little less stale.  There'll still be the townies who have all known each other since childhood, but there'll also be a group of people around with a broader perspective.

I second that. Also, look for a micropolitan town. Small town at the center of multiple rural areas.

[saguaro]

Chicago is one of the biggest cities in the US and as such, it has the problems associated with massive super-cities. I wouldn't want to retire there either.  (Well, it's been years since I've been there, so I can't say for sure, but I feel it's a pretty safe bet.) There are plenty of options in between that and Mayberry.

There's plenty of smaller cities / larger towns that are in that in between range.   Grew up in Chicago and yes, there are going to be problems associated with a super large city.  I moved out 35 years ago, but remained in the surrounding suburbs because of job and family.   Have no plans to remain after retirement and there's some smaller cities that we have in mind.