Author Topic: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?  (Read 10856 times)

big_slacker

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Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« on: August 06, 2016, 02:39:14 PM »
The child support thread got me thinking/doing another round of this. I do this every once in a while as the breadwinner for a single income home, breaking out my excel budget, copying the sheet and doing an alternate universe where I'm single. Holy crap does the budget look different, mostly due to housing costs, $1k a month right there even in this area. But also regular things like food, phones, car and so on. Plowing that into savings/investments would massively accelerate FIRE for me, like I could be done with work in well under 10 years.

Other than pure financial, scenarios like going full remote work with a ski condo and a #vanlife rig for part time digital nomad work. Or buying land and doing a tiny home. These would cut down on living expenses even more and talk about work life balance!

*OR*, I used to be a travelling consultant and could go full 'up in the air' where I'd basically have a crash pad or maybe even just rent a room with someone and spend most of the time on the road. Not only is rent almost nil but so is the food budget, phone This would probably be as close to maxing out time to FIRE as possible, could bank 80-90% of income. Despite what you might think this doesn't have to be a lonely life.

It's important to note in my case at least there is no bitterness involved. I love my wife and kids and by most measures (even my own) have a pretty awesome life. This is pure daydreaming with engineer nerdiness leading to actually running the numbers.

Anyone else do this? What do your scenarios look like? How would they help or hinder your financial goals?

iris lily

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2016, 02:48:52 PM »
Two working, frugal adults are MMM gold. They used to be called DINKS (double household income, no kids.)

 My brother and his wife were DDINKS at one time, they both had full time  jobs and part time jobs. Between the two of them they seemed to have 6 communication devices, it was insane at their house, They worked in health emergency jobs.

daverobev

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2016, 06:09:25 PM »
Yeah I think about it, and yeah housing is the biggie.

I lived a gooood long time on my own, now I have a wife and 2 year old, with another on the way, I'm only working part time and from home, and being daycare half the week.

Plus I'm a complete introvert. I'm finding it very draining (would be easiest, on some levels, to just get a full time job, but that entails a very different lifestyle), though it'll change somewhat when DW goes on maternity.

I plot and plan getting a van or RV of some kind for a little bolt hole. I can't quite get over the cost, though - too cheap and you get a rustbucket here. Too expensive is.. well.. too expensive.

But yes, I think about it.

I have a half price code for a train ticket this year. Want to do the Canadian to Vancouver. Then find a little cave in Stanley Park and sleep for a week, ha!

mozar

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2016, 06:13:50 PM »
Why can't you downsize, or live in an rv with your kids and spouse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZjQF2ZxL8

Typhoid Mary

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2016, 06:21:12 PM »
Oh sure, I play that game sometimes.  But I was a miserable single, and definitely become my best self when functioning as part of a team.  It's not for everyone, but it sure is for me. Had tons more money when single, and without kids.  Sounds cliche, but motherhood also made me a better person. Again, YMMV, but I will choose delayed FIRE and financial struggles as money can't buy my definition of happiness.

GoConfidently

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2016, 06:26:16 PM »
As a single person, I often think about how awesome it would be to have a MMM spouse to save money. Housing costs are the majority of most budgets and sharing a bed means a 2 for 1 deal on rent/mortgage. It would also mean having the option to choose between two employer provided insurance options to get the best deal. Most importantly, it would provide a safety net. Being single long term is stressful when you think about all the what-if scenarios (what if I become disabled or get cancer, what if my house burns down, what if I get pregnant or have to take in my godchildren). It's not just money that plays into those scenarios. There's also the planning, stress, time management, and emotional burden. There's something to be said for the peace of mind a partner brings when planning for the future.

On the flip side, I know my what-ifs can go the other way. What if I have a partner that gets ill, wastes money, wants to stay in an area I don't want to live in, doesn't support my emotional/mental/physical needs? And that's without considering children.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 08:34:41 PM »
sharing a bed means a 2 for 1 deal on rent/mortgage. It would also mean having the option to choose between two employer provided insurance options to get the best deal.
You romantic ;-)


GoConfidently

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2016, 08:56:28 PM »
sharing a bed means a 2 for 1 deal on rent/mortgage. It would also mean having the option to choose between two employer provided insurance options to get the best deal.
You romantic ;-)

I'm practically a 90's fucking rom com hahaha

big_slacker

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2016, 08:56:48 PM »
Why can't you downsize, or live in an rv with your kids and spouse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZjQF2ZxL8

Do you one better:

http://www.magpictures.com/surfwise/

Hopefully you didn't take my OP as wholesale rejecting the idea, but if you watch the above documentary (it's on netflix) several or most IIRC of the kids felt they were not well prepared for life and were kind of bitter about how they were raised. A mobile life makes it very difficult to make long term friendships, be part of a community and lack of stability is the downside to greater experience, I know this well as a traveler myself and as someone married to a former military brat. I've personally weighed it for my situation and know it's not as ideal as what I have, but it could be for others.

If you just mean living in a small space not prob. I grew up with 6 people in a 1k sq ft place so I figure I know the ins and outs. But again for current situation to find land that would make it financially viable I'd be moving WAAAAAAY out. And that would mean a massive sacrifice in commute time, school quality and I'd probably get divorced as well, haha!

Here in town almost everything is developed already. A piece of land would be $250k-$300k (add cost of tiny house or RV, getting permits and utils to the land, etc...) and 1500 sq ft house 500k, so all in there wouldn't be a massive savings.

I've fantasized a bit over those options as well FWIW, no scenario isn't worth making up a story about in my book. Beats watching TV, haha!


fdhs_runner

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2016, 11:32:10 PM »
The child support thread got me thinking/doing another round of this. I do this every once in a while as the breadwinner for a single income home, breaking out my excel budget, copying the sheet and doing an alternate universe where I'm single. Holy crap does the budget look different, mostly due to housing costs, $1k a month right there even in this area. But also regular things like food, phones, car and so on. Plowing that into savings/investments would massively accelerate FIRE for me, like I could be done with work in well under 10 years.

...

Anyone else do this? What do your scenarios look like? How would they help or hinder your financial goals?

I did near the end of my marriage, turns out I'm saving even more than I thought I'd be at the time. In my case it wasn't fantasizing though, I was contingency planning. I'd be lying if I said financial differences weren't part of the divorce but that was only a small part.

It wasn't so much housing I'm saving on though. It's groceries, cell phone plans (she was on of those people who just has to have the newest shiniest iPhone and thinks nothing of financing it), cars, cable TV, eating out, costly trips to IKEA and Bed Bath & Beyond, etc etc.

golfreak12

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2016, 12:06:37 AM »
 Very funny that you bring this subject up.
 I think I was destined to be single forever. I was single till I was 40 and just felt that I would be for the rest of my life. I loved being single the majority of the time.
 I remembered back in 2008(38 at the time), I traveled back to Vietnam for the first time in my life and I loved it. I came back in 2009 and stayed there for 2 months and fantasized what would it be like to live here permanently. I said to someone, I only need to save $200k and with a modest 5% return I could live here easily for $1000/month. His exactly reply was "yeah, but how are you going to get $200K ???" I had no clue at the time, how much money I had but I knew it was no where near $200K.
 I would go back once or twice every year and I told myself that I would quit my job and live here if I was single by the time I'm 45. Little did I know that I would meet my future wife in 2011.
 She was quite independent when she was in VN but of course she had to start all over and it meant I was the sole supporter. She is even back in school full time and college isn't cheap. She even gets an allowance to do with whatever she wants(my purpose for that was that she can use the money to help her parents and we would never have to argue about that situation).
 Fast forward to early 2015 when I found MMM and I started calculating our NW for the 4% rule. To my surprise, it was around $500k. I was a bit shocked. How to I get from "hoping for $200K in 2009" to supporting my wife going through school with ~$500k. Most of that was the rising value of the 2 houses and my salary basically double since I got married. Not only work was better but I wasn't taking so much time off traveling like I used to.
 So pretty much the past couple of years, I kinda fantasized what it would be like if I was single. If everything else remain constant and expenses were reduced being single, I probably would be in the $700k now. I would be living like a rockstar in VN right now. Women flocking to me left and right(not like it wasn't before).
 It remains just that though. A fantasy. My wife is great. I know I could have never done any better. When she gets done with school and get a good job, I could ease up on my job. My other fantasy is us traveling the world and thats realistic. Now my only problem is if she gets the itch and demand a baby. There goes the other fantasy.

former player

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2016, 01:55:59 AM »
I plot and plan getting a van or RV of some kind for a little bolt hole. I can't quite get over the cost, though - too cheap and you get a rustbucket here. Too expensive is.. well.. too expensive.

Forget about the RV, which is merely lifestyle inflation.  The mustachian answer is the garden shed.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2016, 08:05:33 AM »
Forget about the RV, which is merely lifestyle inflation.  The mustachian answer is the garden shed.
Which you built yourself,  from materials you found in dumpsters

iwasjustwondering

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2016, 08:08:39 AM »
As my kids get older, I think about what I will be able to do when they've moved out.  I'll have much more freedom, and a lot more money.  If I can save/invest what I am now putting toward college, I will be able to retire in just a few years. 

Generally speaking, though, raising kids is the most interesting, rewarding thing I will ever do in my life.  My kids are great travel companions.  We just went to France.  It would have been much cheaper without them, but not half as fun.  Without them, what would be the point.


former player

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2016, 08:12:58 AM »
Forget about the RV, which is merely lifestyle inflation.  The mustachian answer is the garden shed.
Which you built yourself,  from materials you found in dumpsters
I thought that went without saying.

Allie

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2016, 12:05:33 PM »
When our kids are being particularly nuts, my husband and I will talk about what we could be doing if we didn't have 2 small humans dependent on us for the next 15 years.  Taking a year to travel the US; moving to less kid friendly areas; relocating to a hammock on a Central American beach.  Sigh. 

I'm sure my husband also thinks about what he could be doing if he wasn't supporting all 3 of us by himself...he just doesn't talk about it out loud!

SimplyMarvie

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2016, 12:14:57 PM »
My mother tells me regularly, "Darling, you know that you'd be utterly screwed if he left you, right?" And you know what, she ain't wrong.

Life as a single adult for me would mean alimony (Mr. Marvie put his career on hold when we had kids, and on semi-permanent hold when we became expats. I'd owe it to him, and we both know it.), and either child support or the costs of a kick-ass housekeeper/nanny/manager to keep us all fed, out of complete squalor, and mind the small ones while I was at work.

So yeah, I run those numbers. And then I bend over backwards to do something amazing for my husband because he makes our lifestyle possible. (I also regularly run the numbers on what it would cost for him to go back and get re-credentialed to teach, move the kids to the US, buy a car, and take care of all of them until he is earning money. Then I compare it to the Social Security Survivor's Benefit, our savings and life insurance policies. The paranoia of a sole-income family -- I want to make sure that should I be hit by a falling toilet seat, they're safe and taken care of.) I just don't see a whole lot of point of running a what-if scenario for if I'd never married and my kids didn't exist. Perhaps that's because we married young, but I'd probably be in BigLaw in Chicago or something else totally crazy. I like my life way better than that. :)

ender

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2016, 12:37:41 PM »
Yeah... housing is by far the biggest factor for me. Many people talk about their housing costs going down when they get married but generally that's only true if you were not already having multiple roommates.

In my case, total housing cost is a lot more as a married person than it was when I was a single person. If I was single now, I would have bought a different house and one where I could rent room(s) out to others and have a much, much different total housing cost average per month.

Realistically, a spouse only reduces your time to FIRE if your expenses increase at a lower multiplier than your savings do. Spending 2x for two people but only saving 1.5X means you actually are reducing your ability to FIRE, even if your total income goes up. This can happen if incomes are not similar, if your spending goes up per person on average (such as housing), or otherwise have family matters affect things - kids, SAHP, etc.

*shrug*

Getting married and eventually having children will significantly delay my ability to be FI and potentially RE. I try not to think about it, generally. There's not a whole ton of value in thinking about this as all it does is lead to "is my family worth X years of more work?" types of ponderings. It just isn't really beneficial to think about whether or not your family is "worth it" to you.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 03:47:36 PM »
The child support thread got me thinking/doing another round of this. I do this every once in a while as the breadwinner for a single income home, breaking out my excel budget, copying the sheet and doing an alternate universe where I'm single. Holy crap does the budget look different, mostly due to housing costs, $1k a month right there even in this area. But also regular things like food, phones, car and so on. Plowing that into savings/investments would massively accelerate FIRE for me, like I could be done with work in well under 10 years.

Other than pure financial, scenarios like going full remote work with a ski condo and a #vanlife rig for part time digital nomad work. Or buying land and doing a tiny home. These would cut down on living expenses even more and talk about work life balance!

*OR*, I used to be a travelling consultant and could go full 'up in the air' where I'd basically have a crash pad or maybe even just rent a room with someone and spend most of the time on the road. Not only is rent almost nil but so is the food budget, phone This would probably be as close to maxing out time to FIRE as possible, could bank 80-90% of income. Despite what you might think this doesn't have to be a lonely life. 

Anyone else do this? What do your scenarios look like? How would they help or hinder your financial goals?

I have done, currently do, or plan to do most of this.  I've been lonely at times.  when I am I think wouldn't it be great if I...

love my wife and kids and by most measures (even my own) have a pretty awesome life.

Grass is always greener

Inaya

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 05:32:07 PM »
Our Golden Cow is eating out--it's the largest chunk of our budget behind rent. However, I have a weird phobia of eating in restaurants alone (brings back memories of eating alone in the school cafeteria or something). So if I was single, I'd probably never eat out. Not much else would change, since we don't spend a whole lot of money on anything that I wouldn't spend it on as a solo act. (Except maybe gift giving, but that could just mean my mom's gifts would be twice as expensive.)

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 03:07:39 AM »
Married, no kids.

I've thought about this not from a fantasy perspective but from a 'God forbid' perspective.

If, God forbid, something happened to my husband, could I afford our apartment? Would I manage (financially) on my own?

Rural

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2016, 05:15:51 AM »
I don't from a financial perspective (we're both better off), but every now and again when I trip over his boots in the dark while trying to go pee in the night.... :)

MMMarbleheader

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 06:02:42 AM »
I found MMM because I was trying to reduce spending because I had a stay at home wife.

We had our first at 26 which seems about 10 years before most of the parents we are meeting. Had I known about MMM before, I probably would have done the logical thing and saved more. We are expecting another soon so we will be done with the child rearing a hair before 30.

BUT.. I really enjoy being young parents. Its not the most logical now, but having lots of life left when our kids are out of the house. (We will be empty nesters at 47) is very appealing to me. If our first has kids when we did, we will be grandparents at 52! I see these older parents with more complicated and intense careers and don't envy them at all.


coffeelover

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2016, 06:57:08 AM »
I found MMM because I was trying to reduce spending because I had a stay at home wife.

We had our first at 26 which seems about 10 years before most of the parents we are meeting. Had I known about MMM before, I probably would have done the logical thing and saved more. We are expecting another soon so we will be done with the child rearing a hair before 30.

BUT.. I really enjoy being young parents. Its not the most logical now, but having lots of life left when our kids are out of the house. (We will be empty nesters at 47) is very appealing to me. If our first has kids when we did, we will be grandparents at 52! I see these older parents with more complicated and intense careers and don't envy them at all.

Ha! I realize this was a typing error but kuddos to you for having kids young and then booting them out of the nest at such a young age. I wish my kids would learn how to adult that young!

I had my first at 18, then two more kids at 33 and 35. Whoops lol.

All kids will be of age by the time I'm 52. I can't wait!
If I would have stopped having kids I would have been an empty nester at 37 years old. My daughter moved out last year.
 Kids are a joy but they are for sure a drain on our finances.

I didn't realize though that I was considered an 'old parent' now that I had my two younger kids in my 30's. I for sure feel the difference raising kids now vs when I was 18.

But you go with life and enjoy it as much as possible.

edit: grammer
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 07:03:15 AM by coffeelover »

GuitarStv

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2016, 07:00:29 AM »
From a financial perspective, marrying my wife was an obvious and awesome decision to make.  She works, and we both make a decent salary as engineers.  Having a kid . . . not so much, but we're coping.  Generally though, I'm pretty happy with my life and don't find myself playing this game very often.

Giro

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2016, 08:08:35 AM »
I do this sometimes but with the perspective that what if something happens to my spouse. I think everyone should be prepared just in case. 

ender

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 08:11:39 AM »
All of that depends on the kind of housing and lifestyle choices you make.  A dual income childless couple choosing to rent a one bedroom or studio apt (or even a room rental) or own a house and rent out their extra rooms is going to be able to live cheaper than the single person. Add to that sharing of most utilities (takes just as much energy to heat or cool a space if there's one person or 2 or more in the space), prop taxes and home insurances, shared vehicle, internet, cable, etc... However, if like the OP, you are sole income provider and have kids then you'll pay more than a single person.

yeah.....

driftwood

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 08:40:35 AM »
Anyone else do this? What do your scenarios look like? How would they help or hinder your financial goals?

Yes!  I recently realized I was doing it too much as an escape from the stress/mental fatigue of balancing my job and my family (wife & two young children). 

Current scenario:  Military, also have kids ages 2ish and 4ish.  Discovered MMM 1.5 years ago, was already aggresively paying off debt (thanks to DR).  MMM got me biking to work and gave me a structure for what to do with $$$ after/besides paying off debt.  Don't really like my job, SUPER interested in RPA pilot track.

If I continued on the military route I'd be retired at age 46 ($3kish a month).  Around $600k in retirement/investments.  No property, or deduct a mortgate/house from what I'd have accumulated.  Would have moved the kids 3-4 more times, plus one last time to wherever we want to live after retirement.  I could easily live off the retirement pay esp with the extra saved up.  The problem with this plan is that it's really hard for my wife/kids to have any type of support system when we keep moving.  Add deployments to that mix and its a sucky life for them. RPA pilot job includes the issues above and a 10 year commitment, which means NO option for bailing before retirement even if in familys best interest. 

I've spent a lot of time daydreaming about both retiring at 46 and doing the RPA job.  If I do pro's and con's with my family's needs in mind, the ONLY pro is financial security.  Any other pro's are strictly mine (job fulfillment, 20ish years less work (maybe)).

If I was single with no kids I'd definitely stick it out in the military then spend the rest of my life exploring/playing outdoors.  I actually went to school for Wilderness Leadership (thanks GI Bill), but rejoined the military because I wanted a 'real' job and I was worried about supporting a family on seasonal outdoor guide work. 

Thanks to this site though, we've been able to work out a scenario where we get out in the next few years with a good amount of saving/investments, and no debt.  Then we piece together various jobs to make the money we need while still having a lot of freedom in our lives to do what we want.  For awhile I had the mentality that now that I have kids I can't do anything fun or risky or 'live my dreams', but it looks like I can after all.

ketchup

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2016, 09:12:25 AM »
I do this sometimes but with the perspective that what if something happens to my spouse. I think everyone should be prepared just in case.
This is kind of my thought process too.  Also borrows a bit from the stoic "negative visualization" strategy.  It helps knowing that I'd be fine money-wise without her, and she'd be fine money-wise without me.

If something were to happen to her, I'd probably rent out a bedroom, dump our second car, not spend another cent eating out, and start making really bad clothing decisions that I'm completely oblivious to.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2016, 09:17:03 AM »
I often think about how lucky my SO and I are to be DINKs with above average paying jobs.

Many of our friends outearn us yet seem to be lightyears behind us financially. The power of two incomes in a frugal couple is tremendous in terms of achieving FIRE asap.


jrhampt

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2016, 09:39:39 AM »
I often think about how lucky my SO and I are to be DINKs with above average paying jobs.

Many of our friends outearn us yet seem to be lightyears behind us financially. The power of two incomes in a frugal couple is tremendous in terms of achieving FIRE asap.

Same here.

mindaugas

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2016, 03:46:34 PM »
IT guy here too. Love my wife and family, but yeah I fantasize about finances without kids and even single. At my current salary I could FIRE in less than 10 years easy.

I found MMM because I was trying to reduce spending because I had a stay at home wife.

We had our first at 26 which seems about 10 years before most of the parents we are meeting. Had I known about MMM before, I probably would have done the logical thing and saved more. We are expecting another soon so we will be done with the child rearing a hair before 30.

BUT.. I really enjoy being young parents. Its not the most logical now, but having lots of life left when our kids are out of the house. (We will be empty nesters at 47) is very appealing to me. If our first has kids when we did, we will be grandparents at 52! I see these older parents with more complicated and intense careers and don't envy them at all.

Me too, although we had our first at 30 which I regret. I wish we had tried sooner. We used MMM so my wife could leave her job.

onlykelsey

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2016, 03:50:59 PM »
IT guy here too. Love my wife and family, but yeah I fantasize about finances without kids and even single. At my current salary I could FIRE in less than 10 years easy.

I found MMM because I was trying to reduce spending because I had a stay at home wife.

We had our first at 26 which seems about 10 years before most of the parents we are meeting. Had I known about MMM before, I probably would have done the logical thing and saved more. We are expecting another soon so we will be done with the child rearing a hair before 30.

BUT.. I really enjoy being young parents. Its not the most logical now, but having lots of life left when our kids are out of the house. (We will be empty nesters at 47) is very appealing to me. If our first has kids when we did, we will be grandparents at 52! I see these older parents with more complicated and intense careers and don't envy them at all.

Me too, although we had our first at 30 which I regret. I wish we had tried sooner. We used MMM so my wife could leave her job.

Ugh, I feel like there is no way to win, I hear envy from my younger parent friends of older parents as well.  I got pregnant at 29 with our first (due in four months and change) which I hope is a good balance, but sometimes I feel like I got the worst of both worlds (still fresh enough in the workplace not to be retired, and old enough that my career is pretty demanding and irreplaceable).   I think I've probably committed myself to work until the (first?) kid is ~5, but I may be able to be done around then if I want to be.

redbird

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2016, 05:40:28 PM »
I often think about how lucky my SO and I are to be DINKs with above average paying jobs.

Many of our friends outearn us yet seem to be lightyears behind us financially. The power of two incomes in a frugal couple is tremendous in terms of achieving FIRE asap.

Agreed. Husband and I would not have achieved what we have if we weren't together and dual income. Since we have no kids, being together is cheaper than it would've cost us to each be single. We would not be FI or RE yet if we were single.

rocketpj

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2016, 06:07:08 PM »
I might be able to manage if DW was with me, but if I was alone I'd be on the fast track to disaster.  And my kids are awesome, really there isn't much I wouldn't give up for them.

Sure, I'd like to get out fishing a lot more often, but I have a good life so no complaints.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2016, 07:35:36 PM »
Agreed. Husband and I would not have achieved what we have if we weren't together and dual income. Since we have no kids, being together is cheaper than it would've cost us to each be single. We would not be FI or RE yet if we were single.

We are still a LOOOONG way from FIRE, but I'm 29 and SO is 25. We have only been at this for a little while. Even if our incomes end up stagnant we can be done in 8-10 years. No plans on kids, but if they happen it will definitely delay FIRE significantly, and limit our freedom to travel/do the things we want to do.

At the same time, parenthood seems like it can be very rewarding in its own way. Everyone has a different path in life.

calimom

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2016, 10:30:22 PM »
My big What If Moment came at age 31 during the extremely brief period when I was a SAHM mom and my 37 year old software developer husband was killed by a drunk driver on his way home from work. My kids at that time were 1, 5, and 14 (my husband's teenaged daughter from his first marriage who I had full custody of after his death) My life 9 years later pretty much doesn't resemble what it was, I had to do a major reset in order to salvage my kids' childhood. Thanks to a reasonable amount of life insurance, Social Security Survivors' benefits and my own stubborn scrappy ability to make a living, we're doing OK. Raising children is much, much easier with two involved parents. Don't take it for granted, whether both parents work with great jobs, crappy jobs, no jobs, part time jobs, etc. Appreciate what you have; life can turn in an instant.

Villanelle

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2016, 12:37:26 AM »
I try not to think about it, because I'd be screwed.  I gave up my career to move overseas for his.  At this point, I've been away from the workforce so long (6 years and counting) that even getting back somewhere close to what I was making would likely be rough as my skills are dated and unused. 

I would basically have to rely on alimony until I was able to find a job, and I'd likely be living pretty lean with what I could make once I did find work.   I suspect I'd get a fairly hefty amount of alimony because out our circumstances, and I'd be entitled to almost half of his retirement pay as well, which isn't that far down the road.   

I'm sure I'd find a way to make it work, but I don't entirely know what that looks like, and even though I have no reason to believe there will be any need to do so, it's a bit terrifying.   

Squirrel away

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2016, 01:28:29 AM »
My big What If Moment came at age 31 during the extremely brief period when I was a SAHM mom and my 37 year old software developer husband was killed by a drunk driver on his way home from work. My kids at that time were 1, 5, and 14 (my husband's teenaged daughter from his first marriage who I had full custody of after his death) My life 9 years later pretty much doesn't resemble what it was, I had to do a major reset in order to salvage my kids' childhood. Thanks to a reasonable amount of life insurance, Social Security Survivors' benefits and my own stubborn scrappy ability to make a living, we're doing OK. Raising children is much, much easier with two involved parents. Don't take it for granted, whether both parents work with great jobs, crappy jobs, no jobs, part time jobs, etc. Appreciate what you have; life can turn in an instant.

Sorry to read that.x

Bertram

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2016, 07:09:47 AM »
*OR*, I used to be a travelling consultant and could go full 'up in the air' where I'd basically have a crash pad or maybe even just rent a room with someone and spend most of the time on the road. Not only is rent almost nil but so is the food budget, phone This would probably be as close to maxing out time to FIRE as possible, could bank 80-90% of income. Despite what you might think this doesn't have to be a lonely life.

I think there is tendency for a lot of people to overestimate how long they would be able to cope with a life situation that does not make them happy just because it offers a single benefit in terms of X (in this case stockpiling money).

"If I worked a little harder, spent a little less, lived a little worse, oh the possibilites...", and when it works for a month or a year, they think it can work for 10 or 20 years as well. More often than not, people overshoot and end up in a worse place, not a happy place.

Having said that, I am a traveling consultant, but partly because I got thrown into it, enjoyed it and followed opportunity. And because I was able to reduce work and still enjoy other aspects of life. Not something that is generally easy to arrive at in that line of work (certainly not by following a recipe). And I certainly would not have been able to do it, while living like a monk and hoarding all the monies. It takes a very special type of mind/personality to do that, and the ones I met for them it's compulsory to the point that they would be doing it regardless anyway (again, not what I consider healthy or happy; certainly wouldn't trade with them).

I used to play the what-if game while life was all about "increasing possibilites", i.e. investing in skills/connections/... to have options later. But tere comes a point, where you need to cash in those chips or they start to loose their value. No 35 year old gets drafted for the big league, there are no high potentials entering the workforce at 40 years old. So at some point in life, you make those big choices and you work it hard to see where it gets you, there's no point in playing the what-if game at that point as long as you are on a wining strategy and happy. Playing it is anti-stoic and drains energy that is better spent in the here and now, i.e., the decisions you do make now rather than for decision you could have made ten years ago...

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2016, 11:02:48 AM »
Oh sure, I play that game sometimes.  But I was a miserable single, and definitely become my best self when functioning as part of a team.

Same here. Well, I wouldn't say I was "miserable" when I was single, but I was definitely lonely. In theory, it was nice being able to do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, but in reality, I didn't get out all that much. I'm a much happier person now (wife and 3 kids, all under 5) than I was when I was single. I do more of the stuff that I love now that I have people to share it with. It ain't cheap, but it's worth every penny.

big_slacker

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2016, 09:09:29 PM »
*OR*, I used to be a travelling consultant and could go full 'up in the air' where I'd basically have a crash pad or maybe even just rent a room with someone and spend most of the time on the road. Not only is rent almost nil but so is the food budget, phone This would probably be as close to maxing out time to FIRE as possible, could bank 80-90% of income. Despite what you might think this doesn't have to be a lonely life.

I think there is tendency for a lot of people to overestimate how long they would be able to cope with a life situation that does not make them happy just because it offers a single benefit in terms of X (in this case stockpiling money).

"If I worked a little harder, spent a little less, lived a little worse, oh the possibilites...", and when it works for a month or a year, they think it can work for 10 or 20 years as well. More often than not, people overshoot and end up in a worse place, not a happy place.

I used to play the what-if game while life was all about "increasing possibilites", i.e. investing in skills/connections/... to have options later. But tere comes a point, where you need to cash in those chips or they start to loose their value. No 35 year old gets drafted for the big league, there are no high potentials entering the workforce at 40 years old. So at some point in life, you make those big choices and you work it hard to see where it gets you, there's no point in playing the what-if game at that point as long as you are on a wining strategy and happy. Playing it is anti-stoic and drains energy that is better spent in the here and now, i.e., the decisions you do make now rather than for decision you could have made ten years ago...

On your first point, when I was a road warrior I enjoyed the hell out of it. The frequent flier preferential treatment, getting to see a new city all the time, getting to work with new people all the time and solve their problems, taking the clients out for food/drinks. Running in a new place was just great. Staying the weekend or an extra day to sightsee. That's why in my post I said despite what you might think this doesn't have to be a lonely life. Granted it's not what a family man wants to do, hence the reason I don't do it anymore. But I would go out with the clients and some of them would become friends. Go back to the same city and you've got buddies to hang with. That and also people I knew long term from online and got to meet in person when I was in town.

On your second point keep in mind my framing for this. This isn't a regret thing, sometimes I wake up and can't believe how lucky I am. I'm also the type of guy that used to play RPG video games and HAVE to go back and beat the thing 10 different times with all the different character types/modes, etc. What would THAT level have been like if I had these skill types instead of those? For me running these scenarios is not so much out of longing for something else but just because my mind likes fleshing out scenarios. I totally agree that if you're truly dwelling on or regretting a path not taken you're not in a good headspace.

Miss Unleaded

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2016, 03:18:36 AM »
My big What If Moment came at age 31 during the extremely brief period when I was a SAHM mom and my 37 year old software developer husband was killed by a drunk driver on his way home from work. My kids at that time were 1, 5, and 14 (my husband's teenaged daughter from his first marriage who I had full custody of after his death) My life 9 years later pretty much doesn't resemble what it was, I had to do a major reset in order to salvage my kids' childhood. Thanks to a reasonable amount of life insurance, Social Security Survivors' benefits and my own stubborn scrappy ability to make a living, we're doing OK. Raising children is much, much easier with two involved parents. Don't take it for granted, whether both parents work with great jobs, crappy jobs, no jobs, part time jobs, etc. Appreciate what you have; life can turn in an instant.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been for you.

Helvegen

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2016, 10:05:13 AM »
I don't really know what it is like to live on my own or be single. I went straight from my mother's house to my husband's. I can't say I think about being single all that much because I am pretty satisfied with my marriage.

I think if I had never married, I would have been basically doing what I do now: have a decent job, but not career, that covers my living expenses with a little extra. I don't know if I could actually ever become FI living alone with my limited income potential, but I would have the ultimate flexibility to take whatever jobs I wanted to.

I occasionally think about what it might be like if I hadn't had a kid. But having a kid is such a financial mixed bag with its advantages and disadvantages, I don't know if I am better or worse off for having one, strictly financially speaking.

About the only time I spend on the 'what if' game when it comes to major life/financial decisions is my choice of college major. I'd probably do that different if I had the chance, but it is what it is and I have to make the best of it.


partgypsy

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Re: Any married/family folks guilty of playing the what if game?
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2016, 02:26:48 PM »
My mother tells me regularly, "Darling, you know that you'd be utterly screwed if he left you, right?" And you know what, she ain't wrong.

Life as a single adult for me would mean alimony (Mr. Marvie put his career on hold when we had kids, and on semi-permanent hold when we became expats. I'd owe it to him, and we both know it.), and either child support or the costs of a kick-ass housekeeper/nanny/manager to keep us all fed, out of complete squalor, and mind the small ones while I was at work.

So yeah, I run those numbers. And then I bend over backwards to do something amazing for my husband because he makes our lifestyle possible. (I also regularly run the numbers on what it would cost for him to go back and get re-credentialed to teach, move the kids to the US, buy a car, and take care of all of them until he is earning money. Then I compare it to the Social Security Survivor's Benefit, our savings and life insurance policies. The paranoia of a sole-income family -- I want to make sure that should I be hit by a falling toilet seat, they're safe and taken care of.) I just don't see a whole lot of point of running a what-if scenario for if I'd never married and my kids didn't exist. Perhaps that's because we married young, but I'd probably be in BigLaw in Chicago or something else totally crazy. I like my life way better than that. :)

Well, I am having to play the what if game except it isn't what if. Husband cheated and left. Even if I have 100% custody (which is how it is right now at least) he won't owe me much more than 400, 500 a month due to his lower income. So going from a two parent household with enough money to cover everything and child care back up, to being a single mom paying pretty much for everything but also having the kids anytime I'm not actually at work, well didn't think that was going to happen. Part of it was my fault. We were married so long I just we assumed we were on the same page for major things, like being married and staying together was important, raising our kids, providing for them was important, etc. When actually his values or interests haven't been the same for a long long while. I've done my crying but I do know this is going to mean less free time for me and a change in standard of living for my kids. And it's not like we live a super luxurious life right now, but things like no summer camps, no saving for college, and possibly renting instead of having our own home. I'm hoping to keep the house though as renting will be about the same or not much less.