Any early retirement fails out there?

[nicknageli]

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

[SnackDog]

I'm an ER failure because I'm failing to ER.  I'm even blogging about how much sense it makes for me to retire, and yet I feel further away from my toes in the sand than ever!  I had a really great week at work, I have a 3-day week next week, and there are all these great blogs that ER people write that I can live vicariously through...  I worry I'm going to be stuck working until they kick me out, which I keep thinking they will do sooner or later... but then I get inspired, put in a killer week, and knock their socks off.

I feel nearly the same.  If I ever really wash out at work, they'll march me back to Houston into a mind-numbing job (I have seen it happen to several).  I the mean time, I am working on fabulous projects in amazing locations, traveling the globe, and scooping up outrageous premiums. I would be nuts to retire while having so much fun largely on expense account and saving vast sums.  Retirement is likely to be a lot less fun!

[cdttmm]

ER failure here. I was 36 and I made it less than three months. I like working part time in a job that is extremely flexible. It keeps me in the game in a good way and I still have plenty of time to do all the stuff I really want to do. I don't have kids. That might have changed things.

[PC]

SwordGuy had some good points.
The way my Dad has managed his retirement transition (at 70!) was first to reduce to 40hrs, then 4 days per week, then 3 days, then contract only.

With seniority and experience employers may be quite willing to be flexible so as not to lose you.
Drop to 4 days a week with a 20% pay cut first.
See how that goes - take the next step.

[libertarian4321]

I may have failed at ER, it's a judgment call.

I ER'd in 2006, but a couple of years later started a friend asked me to help out doing the occasional "piece" work for a small consulting firm, then I started working 3 days a week in 2010, and eventually went back to work full time.

But it wasn't because I needed the money, I just did it because I wanted to and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I get to pretty much do what I want- work from home, NEVER work over 40-hours/week.  Work does not suck when you can do it on your own terms.

Does that count as an ER fail?

[uppy]

I once decided to stop working as long as I could, just to see what I could accomplish. I didn't have a ton of savings, but at the time I was living with extremely low expenses ($200/mo rent, tiny little refrigerator, cabin in the woods with no plumbing or TV or anything to spend money on). I made it about 6 months, finished a draft of a novel, and generally enjoyed the hell out of myself. The rest of my working life will probably consist of getting back to that state.

Wasn't true ER since I knew I still had debt (SL) and it would only be temporary. I also don't see it as a failure since I had such a good time.  But it was definitely unsustainable.

[MayDay]

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

I am trying to convince DH to get on this bandwagon.  But he is the sole income earner so he is scared about a potential sudden loss of income if his employer is not amused and lays him off.  Which points to me getting a job, but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms that I won't get into here.  Blech.

[Eric]

I may have failed at ER, it's a judgment call.

I ER'd in 2006, but a couple of years later started a friend asked me to help out doing the occasional "piece" work for a small consulting firm, then I started working 3 days a week in 2010, and eventually went back to work full time.

But it wasn't because I needed the money, I just did it because I wanted to and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I get to pretty much do what I want- work from home, NEVER work over 40-hours/week.  Work does not suck when you can do it on your own terms.

Does that count as an ER fail?

Nope.  Sorry.

[needmyfi]

Quit a high paying engineering job to start a gardening business.  My husband also went part time doing electrical work.  At the time our triplex was paid off and I had rent coming in from the other two apts that covered all Fixed spending, plus had about 70 k in investments and 20 k in retirement accounts.  First couple of years went great and we had four day weekends at least every month and several longer trips every year and we were still saving money. Then our lives became a crap storm of epic proportions.  First was Hurricane Katrina, moved to an area we didn't know anyone , paid cash for two houses at the height of the market, pipe burst in rental property and flooded it.  We basically made alot of snap decisions and they were all really bad.plus my mom got terminal cancer, brother got arrested, husband got gall bladder surgery and we had no insurance

Would quit all over again.  The thing I would change would be to not make any rash decisions for at least 6 months after a major event.

[Cassie]

How did it all turn out? I really hope ok.

[SweetLife]

About 10 years ago, I'd read an magazine article about a woman who took a "package" from her corporate job, called herself retired (in her 30s I believe) and immediately ramped up spending...had a personal trainer come to her house, adopted a kid, luxury vacations.  She had to go back to work within the year.  My first thought was what a terrible failure.  Yet now I think if we should be so lucky to fail early enough, while we still have our health and our willingness to work, it could be looked at as a learning experience.

When I failed at ER, I had overestimated my income, underestimated my expenses, hadn't been aware of the Safe Withdrawal Rate, or MMM and left work just before the 2008 crash.  I lasted a year and a half until I noticed my stash getting too low for comfort.  Back to work. (different employer)

I'm again at ER.   I track my expenses and income better this time.  I'm inside the 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate.  I was lucky to leave work when the stock market was going through the roof.

This time, I have confidence I would recognize sooner if adjustments were needed.
I remember reading an MMM article with 7 potential action items if the money wasn't enough.
Does anyone else remember it?
He and/or his wife could go back to work full time, or part time.
They could decrease expenses.
They could sell a house.
They could move into a friends basement.
Over half of his potential actions were things I could do if necessary.
MMM is so right, the margins (between expenses to income) get better and better.
ala
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/14/first-retire-then-get-rich/

MMM (and you guys and gals of the forum) continues to offer ways for me to increase my badassity.  There are great ideas and inspiration for side (and full time) gigs http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/ (shhh, don't tell the Internet Retirement Police).
This time, I'm more confident that my ER will be permanent.

HattyT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING!!! I really appreciate that you wrote this post!!!

[jordanread]

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

I like that outlook, and even though I never actually thought about it this way, I've been doing that for about a year, and it makes a huge difference in Job Satisfaction.

[dude]

Great thread.  My ER plans don't include dropping out of the workforce altogether, but rather, "working" part-time doing something I really love (viz., being a rock/ice climbing guide) to (a) to keep me engaged and interacting with interesting people, and (b) to provide a cushion that will allow me to hold off on withdrawing 401k money (I'm planning to retire in the year of my 55th birthday, so will have immediate, penalty-free withdrawal option), even though I anticipate having more than enough in that account to pull 4% from forever. My plan is to use the "shoulder seasons" for spending extended periods of time in foreign countries doing other things I love to do (e.g., scuba diving, surfing, snowboarding, etc).  I do not plan to go gently into that good night.

Regarding the 4% SWR, this is a really interesting plot of a "real-life" retiree account dating back to 1994, that I find quite instructive (while of course, keeping in mind the limited sample period -- though when one considers the ups and downs of the market during this petiod, I find it pretty remarkable):

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/reallife13.html

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Regarding the 4% SWR, this is a really interesting plot of a "real-life" retiree account dating back to 1994, that I find quite instructive (while of course, keeping in mind the limited sample period -- though when one considers the ups and downs of the market during this petiod, I find it pretty remarkable):

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/reallife13.html

The most interesting part of the linked chart is how different the outcome was between retiring in 1994 vs. 2000, and how essential equities exposure is.

[jordanread]

That's kind of a cool chart. It's interesting to that things are fine looking at the long game. How many people you think freaked out after the third year of losses in 2002, and pulled their money out and lost financial independence because of assumptions? I'd be freaked, but think I'd probably just cut spending just in case, maybe pick up a touch of work if I was that scared.
I am relatively new to the investment world, but from what I understand, leaving stuff in the market (vanguard or whatever) would be the best way to capitalize on the long-term gains.
Didn't mean to get off topic, and I'll delve deeper into it in Investor Alley, but was more commenting on the data.

[Nords]

That's kind of a cool chart. It's interesting to that things are fine looking at the long game. How many people you think freaked out after the third year of losses in 2002, and pulled their money out and lost financial independence because of assumptions? I'd be freaked, but think I'd probably just cut spending just in case, maybe pick up a touch of work if I was that scared.

I retired in June of that year and the market bottomed in October.  There were some... intense... spouse discussions on asset allocation.  But of course we also picked up a slew of equity bargains during 2001-2002.

By the time you get to the pit of a multi-year recession, there's not much room left for spending cuts.  When I got a surprise job offer in early 2003, however, we'd already decided that we were going to be fine.

[jordanread]

That's kind of a cool chart. It's interesting to that things are fine looking at the long game. How many people you think freaked out after the third year of losses in 2002, and pulled their money out and lost financial independence because of assumptions? I'd be freaked, but think I'd probably just cut spending just in case, maybe pick up a touch of work if I was that scared.

I retired in June of that year and the market bottomed in October.  There were some... intense... spouse discussions on asset allocation.  But of course we also picked up a slew of equity bargains during 2001-2002.

By the time you get to the pit of a multi-year recession, there's not much room left for spending cuts.  When I got a surprise job offer in early 2003, however, we'd already decided that we were going to be fine.

Awesome! This stuff still kind of freaks me out from an intellectual standpoint. We'll see when I actually run into that after I catch FIRE.

[Dr. Doom]

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

Thanks for the thoughts.  I agree with most of your comments.  Particularly the observations that "there aren't many true emergencies."  I came to a similar realization in 2009 or so but it took leaving start-up culture for a job with lessened expectations, as well as acquiring FU money in order to start pushing back on all of the fake ones.  Now I'm working a much more reasonable 40ish, sometimes even less, and I focus more on what I'm getting done and less on "being available."  Part of that is simply because my new job allows me to shift my focus because the expectations are different.  I completely agree that this approach results in much better job and life satisfaction.

Still, I'll beat that dead horse a bit and repeat that many of my friends remain in startup-culture software jobs and appear to work much harder  -- and they don't feel as though they have any choice in it.   Many are from overseas on work visas and they're terrified of being let go because they'll have to find alternate employment in 2 weeks, at a place that will sponsor their H1, no less, or have to return to their country of origin.  Others are very prideful and refuse to be seen as working less hard than their peers, despite being unhappy with the hours.

I'm not saying that they are actually trapped but the feeling is real enough for them.  It's possible to push back but when there's clear disapproval from others who perceive they are working harder, it's a nasty situation.   Just making the point that there's a lot of pressure to behave a certain way (i.e. work a ton of hours) at certain jobs, at certain times, and if you're sick of it, you may want to simply leave the job and re-evaluate your options rather than stay on and be viewed as a non-team-player, which can be quite unpleasant.

[partgypsy]

My father was an ER failure. He retired during the end of my HS or when I was in college. He had 100's of thousands in the bank from selling his main restaurant, and steady income from part ownership in 2 successful restaurants. Problem was, he had not planned his retirement, was previously a workaholic, and didn't know what to do with himself. After considering and ruling out even more extreme options (like moving to Oregon to buy land and start a winery) within a year he bought back the restaurant he sold and turned it into a fine dining restaurant, which did not go over well in the burbs. That failed, so he doubled down the loss, bought, renovated and started another large fine dining restaurant in the boondocks which also failed. Then he invested a bunch of money (I think it was 100K) in having a restaurant built as part of a new strip mall development. The people were crooks, took his money, disappeared and later declared bankruptcy. During this time the other restaurants he part owned bought out his shares, so no more steady income.
 
At that point he had lost all his money and then some and had to go back to work, working for someone else which is the thing he hated most. 

My father then failed at regular retirement.
Over a number of years he saved enough money and got an outside investor and ended up having his own restaurant, being successful enough to buy out the other investor. The restaurant was doing fine, he had a good living and when he was ready to retire he could have sold it and along with his soc security had a comfortable income. But he didn't feel like that was "enough" (around 80K a year income). So right before the housing meltdown he doubled down by borrowing money to open a 2nd restaurant (right when everyone stopped eating out because they were about to lose their houses) Long story short he ended up losing everything, both restaurants, his townhome, and was in debt in his 70's. He is now in his early 80's and lives extremely modestly in a rental apartment, and works a couple times a week (bookkeeping/payroll for another restaurant) to make ends meet. He can never retire.
   

[Vilgan]

Still, I'll beat that dead horse a bit and repeat that many of my friends remain in startup-culture software jobs and appear to work much harder  -- and they don't feel as though they have any choice in it.   Many are from overseas on work visas and they're terrified of being let go because they'll have to find alternate employment in 2 weeks, at a place that will sponsor their H1, no less, or have to return to their country of origin.  Others are very prideful and refuse to be seen as working less hard than their peers, despite being unhappy with the hours.

I'm not saying that they are actually trapped but the feeling is real enough for them.  It's possible to push back but when there's clear disapproval from others who perceive they are working harder, it's a nasty situation.   Just making the point that there's a lot of pressure to behave a certain way (i.e. work a ton of hours) at certain jobs, at certain times, and if you're sick of it, you may want to simply leave the job and re-evaluate your options rather than stay on and be viewed as a non-team-player, which can be quite unpleasant.

I've seen this as well in startups, although in my experience it was a "they'll take whatever they can get" approach. The main CEO skill was being charismatic, acting excited, and convincing people to work waaay too many hours. Some did, some didn't. Those who did generally did fine. Those who worked 80 hours might have gotten some appreciation, but tbh they tended to get stressed and either quit or have the stress show up in ways that reversed the goodwill they generated by working way too much.

I never had boundary issues when working for others and would be fine with keeping it to 40. However, it was tempting to work more hours when it was my business and my billable hours directly correlated to my earnings. However, I noticed that after several weeks of working long hours my effectiveness and happiness was down a bit so I cooled things back off. I'll still work 50-55 hours occasionally whereas I used to stick to a strict 40, but there's enough variety in it that I'm usually fine.

[Tom Bri]

My parents lost the majority of their assets in a very bad investment - essentially due to a lack of diversification. What they thought would be a retirement with plentiful cash is now a bit tighter as they are living off my father's pension.

The great thing is that they are frugal enough that they haven't had to change their lifestyle at all, do not work, and they travel all the time. They've told me that they basically lost my inheritance...if that's true then no harm done, I want to reach "enough" on my own anyway.

Exactly. I depended on my dad and mom all through college, and even a bit beyond. Mom has passed, but I hope my dad isn't saving a lot back for us kids. He did his part!

[davisgang90]

This is a great thread! 

My plan is to ER in summer of 2018 just shy of my 50th birthday.  I will be retiring from the Navy with 28 years of service, so a pretty solid pension.  I've been moving 4% out of my IRA to a Roth to set up the ladder, but our goal is not to depend on that money and live solely on the pension.

We plan to move away from DC to a non-military area, so I'm not sure what options will be available, but I would like to find some part time gig.  That being said, I have plenty of hobbies to keep me busy.

[spokey doke]

I may have failed at ER, it's a judgment call.

I ER'd in 2006, but a couple of years later started a friend asked me to help out doing the occasional "piece" work for a small consulting firm, then I started working 3 days a week in 2010, and eventually went back to work full time.

But it wasn't because I needed the money, I just did it because I wanted to and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I get to pretty much do what I want- work from home, NEVER work over 40-hours/week.  Work does not suck when you can do it on your own terms.

Does that count as an ER fail?

Nope.  Sorry.

amusing how members of this community are failing to fail in ER...just second and third hand stories and people deciding to work even though they don't really have to (and musing about mindset and the meaning of life)...pretty encouraging overall

[Nords]

amusing how members of this community are failing to fail in ER...just second and third hand stories and people deciding to work even though they don't really have to (and musing about mindset and the meaning of life)...pretty encouraging overall

The difference is that you can choose to work for fulfillment rather than money.  Instead of "How much could I make?" it's "Am I willing to give up a part of my life for the hassles this will create?  Is this really worth it?"

It happens on the non-profit side, too.  My spouse has volunteered with one non-profit for nearly a decade, although she's spent the last year winding it down.  There was a brief period when the CEO persuaded her to transition from "essential volunteer" to "valued headcount".  It was disappointing to see how the attitudes of both management and the rank&file employees changed toward her.  Luckily a couple years later the non-profit decided to stop paying that tier of volunteers and my spouse was able to return to doing the parts that she loved.

Next month it'll be 14 years since the last time I put on a uniform.  I still haven't found anything that makes me want to give up my daily routine or our travel flexibility. Maybe my daily routine is "self-employment" with minimal taxable income?

[partgypsy]

My father was an ER failure. He retired during the end of my HS or when I was in college. He had 100's of thousands in the bank from selling his main restaurant, and steady income from part ownership in 2 successful restaurants. Problem was, he had not planned his retirement, was previously a workaholic, and didn't know what to do with himself. After considering and ruling out even more extreme options (like moving to Oregon to buy land and start a winery) within a year he bought back the restaurant he sold and turned it into a fine dining restaurant, which did not go over well in the burbs. That failed, so he doubled down the loss, bought, renovated and started another large fine dining restaurant in the boondocks which also failed. Then he invested a bunch of money (I think it was 100K) in having a restaurant built as part of a new strip mall development. The people were crooks, took his money, disappeared and later declared bankruptcy. During this time the other restaurants he part owned bought out his shares, so no more steady income.
 
At that point he had lost all his money and then some and had to go back to work, working for someone else which is the thing he hated most. 

My father then failed at regular retirement.
Over a number of years he saved enough money and got an outside investor and ended up having his own restaurant, being successful enough to buy out the other investor. The restaurant was doing fine, he had a good living and when he was ready to retire he could have sold it and along with his soc security had a comfortable income. But he didn't feel like that was "enough" (around 80K a year income). So right before the housing meltdown he doubled down by borrowing money to open a 2nd restaurant (right when everyone stopped eating out because they were about to lose their houses) Long story short he ended up losing everything, both restaurants, his townhome, and was in debt in his 70's. He is now in his early 80's and lives extremely modestly in a rental apartment, and works a couple times a week (bookkeeping/payroll for another restaurant) to make ends meet. He can never retire.
 

This seems more like a self employment fail than an ER fail. Had he chose to stay retired and found some hobbies and interests he liked rather than buy restaurants, his finances might have been very different.

I agree. It was more of a psychology fail than a financial fail. When he was first retired a school wanted him to teach business classes, but he was self conscious of his accent (I thought he would have done a great job). But mainly I think he missed the "thrill" of creating businesses. If he could have found a less expensive way of doing feeling like that, it could have worked. 

[Jon_Snow]

I am also quite delighted to have failed at failing at ER. :)

[Northwestie]

That's been my experience as well.  I just find that if you are efficient you can manage to stick to 40 hrs. 

[misshathaway]

I might fail, and if I do it will be due to my fear rather than the objective facts of my finances. I did not know my REAL risk tolerance until this recent market downturn. I never bothered to check my portfolio while I was working - never knew if the market was up or down. I mistook that for risk tolerance.

I get very worried seeing my cash balance fall, along with the stash, and no money other than a trickle from eBay coming in. I've come to the conclusion that the only way this is going to work psychologically for me is if during these down years I can earn close to my living expenses. Since I've always lived below my means and I've trimmed even further these last few months, thanks to MMM tips, that is not impossible.

Also, I haven't seen this discussed much, but there is an isolation you face with your peers. At least, this is true for me. People I know who are still working, are put off by my retiring early - like I have done something immoral. I would never discuss my current anxiety with them, or the details of my finances. I have recently met some long-time non-ER retirees and they seem pretty content. Looking forward to making new friends.

[Vilgan]

My father was an ER failure. He retired during the end of my HS or when I was in college. He had 100's of thousands in the bank from selling his main restaurant, and steady income from part ownership in 2 successful restaurants. Problem was, he had not planned his retirement, was previously a workaholic, and didn't know what to do with himself. After considering and ruling out even more extreme options (like moving to Oregon to buy land and start a winery) within a year he bought back the restaurant he sold and turned it into a fine dining restaurant, which did not go over well in the burbs. That failed, so he doubled down the loss, bought, renovated and started another large fine dining restaurant in the boondocks which also failed. Then he invested a bunch of money (I think it was 100K) in having a restaurant built as part of a new strip mall development. The people were crooks, took his money, disappeared and later declared bankruptcy. During this time the other restaurants he part owned bought out his shares, so no more steady income.
 
At that point he had lost all his money and then some and had to go back to work, working for someone else which is the thing he hated most. 

My father then failed at regular retirement.
Over a number of years he saved enough money and got an outside investor and ended up having his own restaurant, being successful enough to buy out the other investor. The restaurant was doing fine, he had a good living and when he was ready to retire he could have sold it and along with his soc security had a comfortable income. But he didn't feel like that was "enough" (around 80K a year income). So right before the housing meltdown he doubled down by borrowing money to open a 2nd restaurant (right when everyone stopped eating out because they were about to lose their houses) Long story short he ended up losing everything, both restaurants, his townhome, and was in debt in his 70's. He is now in his early 80's and lives extremely modestly in a rental apartment, and works a couple times a week (bookkeeping/payroll for another restaurant) to make ends meet. He can never retire.
 

This seems more like a self employment fail than an ER fail. Had he chose to stay retired and found some hobbies and interests he liked rather than buy restaurants, his finances might have been very different.

I agree. It was more of a psychology fail than a financial fail. When he was first retired a school wanted him to teach business classes, but he was self conscious of his accent (I thought he would have done a great job). But mainly I think he missed the "thrill" of creating businesses. If he could have found a less expensive way of doing feeling like that, it could have worked.

That makes sense to me. When I think about being FI, I think about selling the existing business and starting other ones. 6-12 months to relax/travel etc, but business is really interesting. I have a hard time imagining sinking enough of my capital into a venture to risk the FI status though.

[Apples]

My in laws.   Ok, it wasn't an early retirement, he was pushed out of his law firm at 60.  They made it 15 years on their own, now they're underwater.   

I'm terrified this is going to be my husband's grandparents.  Grandpa got pushed out of an auto industry job and grandma quit her receptionist job to join him.  Constant references are made to not having much, and I'm not sure how much is pesion vs. savings they can tap in case of emergency.

[Cassie]

Miss HW: maybe working part-time might be the perfect solution so you can bring in $, feel comfortable but not give up all your free time. People don't like it when others retire and they can't which I find stupid. I never resented people that retired younger then me. 

[soccerluvof4]

I might fail, and if I do it will be due to my fear rather than the objective facts of my finances. I did not know my REAL risk tolerance until this recent market downturn. I never bothered to check my portfolio while I was working - never knew if the market was up or down. I mistook that for risk tolerance.

I get very worried seeing my cash balance fall, along with the stash, and no money other than a trickle from eBay coming in. I've come to the conclusion that the only way this is going to work psychologically for me is if during these down years I can earn close to my living expenses. Since I've always lived below my means and I've trimmed even further these last few months, thanks to MMM tips, that is not impossible.

Also, I haven't seen this discussed much, but there is an isolation you face with your peers. At least, this is true for me. People I know who are still working, are put off by my retiring early - like I have done something immoral. I would never discuss my current anxiety with them, or the details of my finances. I have recently met some long-time non-ER retirees and they seem pretty content. Looking forward to making new friends.

Perhaps your fears is what will make you succeed. I feel alot of the same things you do but fear can be a good thing as long as it doesnt control you. As far as you peers I to have felt this but when pushed I say things like I am not retiring rich moneywise but have chosen to do with my time as I want. That seemingly goes along ways and if not there not your friends.

[misshathaway]

People don't like it when others retire and they can't which I find stupid. I never resented people that retired younger then me.

OK, so it's not just me. Thanks for that.

Perhaps your fears is what will make you succeed. I feel alot of the same things you do but fear can be a good thing as long as it doesnt control you.

I think the same way about fear, and guilt for that matter. To me, if they are persistent, they are telling you that something is wrong - like a smoke detector. I've tried it both ways in the past - ignoring it and hoping it will go away :) or taking action. Taking action usually works better.

[Cassie]

I can't remember if it was this thread or another where I stated that we lost some friends- 2 different couples that we had been friends with for about 16 years over this.  Some of our friends were happy for us. One couple that was older then us and still working kept leaving me messages at work not to do it. Then they questioned our decision to sell our bigger home and buy a smaller one. They both were life coaches that work from home and had said for years you should follow your dreams. They just didn't like that we were getting pensions from state jobs that we put up with just for the pension and that was no secret. They like to live large and we don't. Anyways about 2 years in I got sick of it and dumped both couples.

[BFGirl]

I can't remember if it was this thread or another where I stated that we lost some friends- 2 different couples that we had been friends with for about 16 years over this.  Some of our friends were happy for us. One couple that was older then us and still working kept leaving me messages at work not to do it. Then they questioned our decision to sell our bigger home and buy a smaller one. They both were life coaches that work from home and had said for years you should follow your dreams. They just didn't like that we were getting pensions from state jobs that we put up with just for the pension and that was no secret. They like to live large and we don't. Anyways about 2 years in I got sick of it and dumped both couples.

I think this is probably when you find out who your true friends are. 

[Cassie]

Never in a million years did I even think that would happen.  From the time we met I was open about wanting the pension and they kept saying we should be self-employed like they are, they work from home etc and how great it was. I would ask them if they wanted to retire someday since they were 10 years older then us and they said no-they loved their work. Fast forward to now they wish they could retire. Then they get an inheritance and immediately decide their 20 yo 1800 sq ft home is not big enough and buy a brand new 2700 sq ft home. They thought we were making a big mistake for buying a 1400 sq ft home.  Again they tried to talk us out of it.  Ugh! 

[ender]

Never in a million years did I even think that would happen.  From the time we met I was open about wanting the pension and they kept saying we should be self-employed like they are, they work from home etc and how great it was. I would ask them if they wanted to retire someday since they were 10 years older then us and they said no-they loved their work. Fast forward to now they wish they could retire. Then they get an inheritance and immediately decide their 20 yo 1800 sq ft home is not big enough and buy a brand new 2700 sq ft home. They thought we were making a big mistake for buying a 1400 sq ft home.  Again they tried to talk us out of it.  Ugh!

I am really curious if this is the prevailing mentality amongst younger people today (20s and 30s).

Nearly all the other people I know my age either are basically MMM lifestylers or people who don't think they can retire ever (and so consequentially don't plan on it).

[soccerluvof4]

Never in a million years did I even think that would happen.  From the time we met I was open about wanting the pension and they kept saying we should be self-employed like they are, they work from home etc and how great it was. I would ask them if they wanted to retire someday since they were 10 years older then us and they said no-they loved their work. Fast forward to now they wish they could retire. Then they get an inheritance and immediately decide their 20 yo 1800 sq ft home is not big enough and buy a brand new 2700 sq ft home. They thought we were making a big mistake for buying a 1400 sq ft home.  Again they tried to talk us out of it.  Ugh!

I am really curious if this is the prevailing mentality amongst younger people today (20s and 30s).

Nearly all the other people I know my age either are basically MMM lifestylers or people who don't think they can retire ever (and so consequentially don't plan on it).

I think its a taste that is acquired over time like a drug if you hang in the wrong circles

[Cassie]

WE are not young and neither are our friends. I was 58 and my hubby 53 when we retired and they were 10 years older then us. Why people in their late 60's wanted such a big house is beyond me.

[Nords]

I am really curious if this is the prevailing mentality amongst younger people today (20s and 30s).

Nearly all the other people I know my age either are basically MMM lifestylers or people who don't think they can retire ever (and so consequentially don't plan on it).

Pfffft.

I think it's as much a prevailing mentality among today's people in their 20s and 30s as it was with the last generation when they were in their 20s and 30s... or the 20-30 generations before that.

In the 1930s John Maynard Keynes predicted that by now we'd only need to work a 15-hour week and that we'd spend most of our time seeking ways to amuse ourselves. 

[ender]

In the 1930s John Maynard Keynes predicted that by now we'd only need to work a 15-hour week and that we'd spend most of our time seeking ways to amuse ourselves.

Well this is an ER forum.... ;-)

[ender]

In the 1930s John Maynard Keynes predicted that by now we'd only need to work a 15-hour week and that we'd spend most of our time seeking ways to amuse ourselves.

Well this is an ER forum.... ;-)

Sounds like a plan to make some splurge money in ER (if you steer clear of the retirement police).

I have an entire thread going about working part time and maximizing taxes. Which would ideally be this situation exactly.

I'm fine with the ER police arresting me if that happens :)

[ender]

In the 1930s John Maynard Keynes predicted that by now we'd only need to work a 15-hour week and that we'd spend most of our time seeking ways to amuse ourselves.

Well this is an ER forum.... ;-)

Sounds like a plan to make some splurge money in ER (if you steer clear of the retirement police).

I have an entire thread going about working part time and maximizing taxes. Which would ideally be this situation exactly.

I'm fine with the ER police arresting me if that happens :)

Link please

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/optimizing-taxes-maximizing-benefits-for-parttime-working/msg953147/#msg953147

[TomTX]

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

Love this post. Very timely for me. My (incompetent) boss is pushing me to work more than 40 hours on a regular basis not because there are emergencies but because of attrition. Two people left and the expectation is for my colleague and me to do the work.

Er, no. I don't mind working longer if there is a genuine emergency and I have done this in the past but working 60 to 80 hours because of management incompetence is not likely to happen. Not with this salary and job title (the lowest on the totem pole).

Working for a bad boss is the pits. Fortunately my employer is moving me to a new position with a great boss. Unfortunately it is in another city.

Internally re-framing longer hours along the lines of SwordGuy's post to avoid conflict in the next three to four weeks is going to be very very helpful.

"I'm happy to be a team player, and I need you to be a team player too. I can pick up Bob's workload for the next month by working extra hours - I just need you to also pay me Bob's salary at the same time. On top of my own, since I'm going to still do my own job."

[NorcalBlue]

I'm not sure I'd call mine a fail, but some might think it is.

I'd been striving for ER since my 20's and after getting laid off in Feb. 2015, after 11 years with the same company, I realized I was FI and could RE at 43.  I travelled for 5 months in the Rockies which was amazing.  Fly fishing, hiking, partying, National Parks and lots of decompressing.

But, to be honest, it just hasn't lived up to my dreams.  I'm single and all my friends are buried in their careers, so it can be lonely at times.  When I'm not travelling, my days are filled with running, lifting, hiking, motorcycling, reading, fishing, managing my finances, etc.  As bad as work could be at times, it gave me a sense of purpose and a network of friends as well.  I guess having people "need" me, was more important to me than I thought.  In addition, I've always been someone who has pushed myself in life:  sports, education, work, etc. It just feels unnatural not to be pursuing a career. Full disclosure:  I have 1.25M invested, expenses of $32k or so, no debt. Have a small pension, SS and a small inheritance waiting for me in 20-25 years or so.

Anyway, it just feels like something is missing I guess.  It's funny, you finally reach your dreams and then realize the reality doesn't live up to the dream.  I just don't feel like a success, even though I reached my goal after lots of sacrifice and dedication.  I'm not one to be outspoken about being FI so I get the sense that many people think I'm a deadbeat or a failure.  And that bothers me (as petty as that is). I think they assume I'm "living off of handouts" lol. My step dad made a crack while I was home for the holidays about getting a damn job - I wanted to blurt out that my NW was probably higher than his......but I didn't...I just swallowed it.  I've always told myself that I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks....only what I think.  Turns out that wasn't quite accurate.

So, with that being said, I'm starting to look for work again.  I feel blessed I'm in the financial position I'm in and please don't take any of this as complaining.  I just think 43 is a little to young...at least for me.  I've learned a lot about myself over the past year - much of it I was unaware of.  I think this experience will prepare me for another run at RE in another 5 years or so.  Until then, onward and upward.

[FiveSigmas]

Thanks, esummers, for your open and honest account.

Do you think you'll want/need to go back full time, or would part time be enough?

BTW: Since you mention that you might actually care what other people think, I'll state the obvious: you're clearly quite the opposite of a failure. :-).

[NorcalBlue]

Appreciate that FiveSigmas,

I'd like to find something part time for starters and see how that goes.  Three days a week would be great, but I know many companies aren't necessarily open to that.  I'll see what's out there and roll with the punches I guess.  Flexibility:  One of the many beauties of being FI :).

Thanks again

[dragoncar]

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

Love this post. Very timely for me. My (incompetent) boss is pushing me to work more than 40 hours on a regular basis not because there are emergencies but because of attrition. Two people left and the expectation is for my colleague and me to do the work.

Er, no. I don't mind working longer if there is a genuine emergency and I have done this in the past but working 60 to 80 hours because of management incompetence is not likely to happen. Not with this salary and job title (the lowest on the totem pole).

Working for a bad boss is the pits. Fortunately my employer is moving me to a new position with a great boss. Unfortunately it is in another city.

Internally re-framing longer hours along the lines of SwordGuy's post to avoid conflict in the next three to four weeks is going to be very very helpful.

I'd love to simply stop working at 40 solid hours of work.  But that's impossible since I'd say in a given week I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual work.

[Basenji]

I'd love to simply stop working at 40 solid hours of work.  But that's impossible since I'd say in a given week I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual work.

LOL, I have the same "problem." I've been thinking of going part time, my boss would fuss, but I'd get the same amount of work done.

[soccerluvof4]

I'm not sure I'd call mine a fail, but some might think it is.

I'd been striving for ER since my 20's and after getting laid off in Feb. 2015, after 11 years with the same company, I realized I was FI and could RE at 43.  I travelled for 5 months in the Rockies which was amazing.  Fly fishing, hiking, partying, National Parks and lots of decompressing.

But, to be honest, it just hasn't lived up to my dreams.  I'm single and all my friends are buried in their careers, so it can be lonely at times.  When I'm not travelling, my days are filled with running, lifting, hiking, motorcycling, reading, fishing, managing my finances, etc.  As bad as work could be at times, it gave me a sense of purpose and a network of friends as well.  I guess having people "need" me, was more important to me than I thought.  In addition, I've always been someone who has pushed myself in life:  sports, education, work, etc. It just feels unnatural not to be pursuing a career. Full disclosure:  I have 1.25M invested, expenses of $32k or so, no debt. Have a small pension, SS and a small inheritance waiting for me in 20-25 years or so.

Anyway, it just feels like something is missing I guess.  It's funny, you finally reach your dreams and then realize the reality doesn't live up to the dream.  I just don't feel like a success, even though I reached my goal after lots of sacrifice and dedication.  I'm not one to be outspoken about being FI so I get the sense that many people think I'm a deadbeat or a failure.  And that bothers me (as petty as that is). I think they assume I'm "living off of handouts" lol. My step dad made a crack while I was home for the holidays about getting a damn job - I wanted to blurt out that my NW was probably higher than his......but I didn't...I just swallowed it.  I've always told myself that I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks....only what I think.  Turns out that wasn't quite accurate.

So, with that being said, I'm starting to look for work again.  I feel blessed I'm in the financial position I'm in and please don't take any of this as complaining.  I just think 43 is a little to young...at least for me.  I've learned a lot about myself over the past year - much of it I was unaware of.  I think this experience will prepare me for another run at RE in another 5 years or so.  Until then, onward and upward.

I think this is far from being a failure and more learning about what makes you happy! Remember RE has many different faces and you are just realizing more what you want yours to look like. I say kudo's to you on learning more about yourself AND for having the flexibility. I am in the same boat and while I feel sometimes what your talking about I am not at the point yet but who knows if that will come or not but I wont consider it being a failure.