Author Topic: anti-mustachian HOAs  (Read 17530 times)

nereo

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anti-mustachian HOAs
« on: September 18, 2014, 07:25:08 PM »
Your basic rant against Home Owners Associations (HOAs) - feel free to climb aboard!

No, this isn't your typical complaint about HOA fees paid for by the owners, but more about how HOA rules frustrate the efforts of law-abiding, respectful citizens to live life in a mustachian manner.

I'm on a 'working holiday' (har har - actually I'm attending conferences away from home while working remotely) NS staying with my admittedly unmustachian sister and her husband.  They have your typical upper-middle class suburban home in a housing development complete with the overly controlling HOA.  I'm grateful to stay with her as it means I don't have to live in a motel for a week, I get to visit with her and I can cook my own meals.  Unfortunately, being in suburbia I needed to bring both my car and (optimistically) my bike. 
The first night I was given a notice that I could not park my car there overnight since I wasn't a resident, or I would get a ticket.  This is in a neighborhood with absolutely no shortage of on-street parking.  I'm supposed to park in my sister's driveway, but being suburbanites they have both of their two cars parked there.
Then last night my sister did get fined because I had locked my bike outside around a pillar near her front door.  Apparently there is a rule against having *anything* (including bikes, toys, basketball hoops) left visible outside even though it is still on her property.
She was also told that they were aware that a "non-resident" (me) was staying there, and that in the future she is supposed to apply for a permit whenever a guest will be there for more than 72 hours.  It hinted that they could charge an 'additional lodger fee' to cover any stress i put on the neighborhood, like walking down the sidewalk or producing extra trash.
Earlier today I was followed - at comically slow speeds - by the neighborhood watch car as I rode my bicycle from the grocery store back to my sisters.  The driver (an elderly gentleman) looked highly suspicious of me, a guy wearing chinos and a polo, who was riding a bicycle despite being over the age of 8.

Anyone else been harassed by HOAs like this?

tipster350

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 08:35:13 PM »
Why are you railing against the HOA in a community in which you are not even an owner? If anything, you should be pissed at your sister for signing the agreement and buying a house in a community whose rules you disapprove of.

If I were a homeowner in that community, I'd be pissed if there was no enforcement of rules that everyone agreed to, and they let others flout them at will. Everyone who bought there agreed to the rules and presumably that is how they want their community run.

theonethatgotaway

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 10:51:25 PM »
Meh, seems like you'd be happier at the hotel imo.

Does your sister like her house neighbors and neighborhood? I think that's all that really matters here.

You have the choice to stay elsewhere.

RUStash

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 08:09:49 AM »
Everyone loves to rail on HOA's and how terrible they are. I don't love mine. But I will take it over my previous situation. I used to live in a neighborhood where no HOA existed. My neighbor next to me was terrible. Never, NEVER once mowed his lawn, never picked up his leaves. Parked at least 6 vehicles on his lot daily if not more. One of their ways to earn money was scraping metal. So they had a old beat up truck parked on the street full of old appliances and other scrap items daily. One of the 6 females who lived in the house (12 total people) owned a food truck and would prepare food in the truck and throw food trash in their front yard. Chicken bones, banana peels, veggie scraps, you name it. It was awful.

I reported them to the county many times. But waiting for the county to enforce the laws takes months.

I usually live by the motto to "Live and Let Live"

But when I had to live next to this pig for years I changed my mind. Especially when I had to sell my home and I could not get what I wanted for my home because of my pig neighbor.

I love my new neighborhood with an HOA and the amenities that they provide. To each their own I guess.


MrFrugalChicago

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 09:01:45 AM »
I am in an HOA. They are very sane. Never been fined. Never been yelled at. The yard that never mows has the HOA come mow it and send them a bill every 2-3 weeks, but I think that is good and keeps the neighborhood looking nicer.

The hard part when house shopping is to know if it is a "good" HOA, or a "bad" HOA...  and I suppose even a "good" HOA could eventually transform to a "bad" HOA... but if living in a fairly dense neighborhood, a "good" HOA does keep my property value higher.

ketchup

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 09:41:50 AM »
Our last place we lived had an HOA with some pretty stupid rules.  We got an official scary-looking violation notice for one of our exterior lights being burned out and not yet replaced.  Seriously.  Some people just like feeling important.  I'll never live in a place like that again.

Scandium

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 11:14:33 AM »
Meh, I don't have a problem with them, despite being generally against government nannying. It's simple; the rules can be evaluated before you move there. If you're ok with them then go ahead, if not go live somewhere else. Now if they change them random it can be a problem, but you can still just leave.

We have an HOA, they have some stupid rule (but it does keep people from letting their houses turn to shit). If I don't like it I can always move.

Rural

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 12:11:41 PM »
Threads like this make me terrified for the future of our country.

Eric

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 12:49:51 PM »

seattlecyclone

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 01:29:21 PM »
I'm personally glad those places exist so that all the people who want to live in an environment of enforced uniformity and sterility move there and don't meddle in my business. My neighbors annoy me more often than I would like. They seem to have hoarding tendencies that cause their back yard to fill with worthless junk. They also have loud arguments from time to time. However, I'll take that over the suburban HOA any day. The occasional annoyance from neighbors living their lives is a worthwhile trade for the right to live my life freer as well. To each their own.

hybrid

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 01:37:46 PM »
Our neighborhood had an HOA when it was first built back in the 60s. We still have a neighborhood association I was president of for one year and those HOA rules were a thorny issue. The rules were there, they were old and a few made no sense today, and there was no real way to enforce them since membership in the HOA is entirely voluntary and a mere $25 a year. The money goes toward signage and mowing public areas and the like, the budget is only a few thousand a year. In short, no money for lawyers to enforce the rules. So in general we would simply let folks know they were violating the HOA for certain things and if they complied, great, and if not, well, not much we could do about it.

There are county ordinances, however, and one of our residents will call the county in a NY minute if a lawn hasn't been mowed and the grass is a foot high, scrap cars are in a driveway, etc. If you are a libertarian at heart and reading this you may be thinking "what a dick!", in reality our neighborhood stays very nice in large part because of his efforts. Same guy picks up trash as part of his daily walk every single day. There are pluses and minuses.

Home values are affected in part by the neighborhood you live in, so in general I am supportive of reasonable HOAs. I also understand they can be very, very controlling in certain neighborhoods and go overboard. In the Richmond area that Neighborhood (and a giant one at that, 3800 homes) is Brandermill, where my FIL lives. I sure wouldn't want to live there.

http://www.nbc12.com/story/13151146/mailbox-battle-in-chesterfields-brandermill-brings-protest?redirected=true
http://www.chesterfieldobserver.com/news/2013-08-14/News/Brandermill_gardener_wins_battle_with_HOA.html
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/chesterfield/brandermill-day-care-vote-delayed/article_2002dd17-bba6-5fff-abfe-30c98be9398b.html

DoubleDown

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 01:44:12 PM »
OP's sister's HOA sounds like a bunch of busy-bodies with too much time on their hands and little sense. I don't blame him/her for being annoyed. Really, HOA people, find something useful to do besides hassling others over incredibly minor things.

Apply for a "guest permit" for anyone who will be staying longer than 72 hours in your own house?! WTF. I think I'd tell them to sue me.

Kaspian

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2014, 01:47:03 PM »
I'm personally glad those places exist so that all the people who want to live in an environment of enforced uniformity and sterility move there and don't meddle in my business.

Hahaha...  Amen to that!  More rules and regulations that Soviet Russia?  Count me out.  Those gated communities also freak me out.  Every time I enter one it doesn't feel like it's keeping the dangerous outside world out, but it feels like I'm being locked in.  Like a zoo.  Where's my panda costume?

MayDay

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2014, 07:17:12 PM »
We love in a neighborhood with a supposedly relaxed HOA.  Yes you are technically supposed to do a. Bunch of stupid stuff like get approval before putting in anything in the yard (playset, landscaping, etc).  But no one actually does, so no big deal, and dues are really cheap, just enough to cover mowing and such. 

Well, that's super and all, but our house happens to back up to the neighborhood jerks.  They moved in to the neighborhood at the very beginning and think they should be the boss.  They took an immediate disliking to us because we put in a veggie garden complete with !!!!!!compost pile!!!!!!!!

So thanks to hem, we have had letters from the HOA (they call in ohms,plaintiffs about every piddly thing) and they even called the health department on us because our compost pile was a "vector for disease". 

The moral of the story is that no matter where we lived, these people would be dicks.  But the HOA gives them the opinion that they can be bossy and controlling and up in our business.  And we can't tell them to F off without them potentially making our live even more miserable over these stupid infractions like leaving out a baby pool (no above ground pools allowed!!!!!!). 

iris lily

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 11:37:13 PM »
I'm personally glad those places exist so that all the people who want to live in an environment of enforced uniformity and sterility move there and don't meddle in my business. My neighbors annoy me more often than I would like. They seem to have hoarding tendencies that cause their back yard to fill with worthless junk. They also have loud arguments from time to time. However, I'll take that over the suburban HOA any day. The occasional annoyance from neighbors living their lives is a worthwhile trade for the right to live my life freer as well. To each their own.
I think I agree with you, I've not liked anything I've heard about HOA's for single family dwellings. So they are likely worse than bad neighbors.

dcheesi

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 12:21:14 AM »
HOAs are like local governments, but without the checks and balances. They can enforce rules that would never pass muster as laws, and they are not responsible to anyone in terms of consistent enforcement, etc.

Someone mentioned that "sane" HOAs are okay, and that you should evaluate them before buying. But what's to stop some new busybody from getting on the board and enacting new rules, or excessively enforcing old ones? All it takes is one change in leadership to turn a reasonable HOA into one that's unbearable.

sol

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2014, 12:33:08 AM »
We have an HOA at our new place.  I like it. 

It is run by our neighbors, who are nice people.  Mostly retired folks, it seems, maybe because they have the time to volunteer for HOA boards while us working stiffs do not.

They keep our streets in great shape.  They landscape the common areas.  Our streetlights are never burned out for more than a single night at a time.  Our common power and water lines have a contingency fund set up for when they eventually need servicing.  They host an annual easter egg hunt for the kids in the neighborhood. 

The downsides are pretty minor.  I can't let my lawn get outrageous, but what kind of prick buys a house with a big lawn and then neglects it?  I can't paint giant boobies on my house, but what kind of prick paints obscene things on his house?  In fact, I'd be hard pressed to think of something the HOA discourages that doesn't equate to being a huge prick.


taekvideo

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2014, 12:58:54 AM »
My neighborhood is the complete opposite... it's an old neighborhood, all the houses are over a century old (mine was built in 1900) so nobody really cares about property values, they can't get any lower (unless the crime rate went up I suppose, but that's not a problem in this town). The neighbors have old boats/cars/rvs parked on their lawns year round, dogs and cats wandering around without leashes, and if I forget to bring my trash can in for 3 days after trash day nobody cares in the slightest.

oinkette

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2014, 12:21:52 PM »
This is why I like my working class neighborhood.  It's just the right amount of mustachianism (laundry lines outside, TONS of home gardens, someone local who either has the tools you need or will do things for cheap) and pride in home ownership (not a single brown lawn or eye sore to be found).  Plus the fees are less than $300 a year.

HOAs do serve a purpose, but some can be oppressive.  But you get what you buy into and don't get to complain after the fact.  This is your sister's burden, not yours.

Dicey

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2014, 01:40:40 PM »
Sorry, OP, zero sympathy for your "situation" from my perspective. Your sister CHOSE to buy a house there and legally knew what she was getting into. For you to come visit and rail against the rules of her HOA is absolutely ridiculous. You have no business arguing against them because you have no skin in the game. Shame on you! This is not a responsible way to act. If you don't like that your sister chose to buy a house with an HOA, then blame HER, not the HOA. She is legally responsible for the actions of her guests with regards to the rules. Says so right there in the fine print. Please, go stay in that hotel and just visit your sister. But don't stay overnight.

This thread deserves a facepunch and a complainypants t-shirt.

Now, let it be known that I agree that HOA's can be a total PITA, which is why people should read all the supporting documents before they buy. They must understand that the rules will apply to them and to their guests. Once they purchase/rent, they should *gasp* attend those pesky monthly and annual meetings. If you don't like it, don't buy it/rent it/visit it for a week.

Dicey

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2014, 01:50:41 PM »
But wait! There's more...
Exactly how do your complaints make the HOA Anti-Mustachian? Where in the MMM Creed does it say that it gives you a free pass to be disrespectful and disobedient of the law? Doing anything unlawful that results in unnecessary fines (speeding, drunk driving, even parking tickets) is what's anti-mustachian. Being an asshole just because you don't like the rules is just being an asshole, not a Mustachian. You could have parked your bike in the garage, backyard or even in the house. All of which would have been safer, more secure, and in compliance with HOA Rules. Protecting your assets, now that's mustachian.

Eric

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2014, 08:34:59 PM »
But wait! There's more...
Exactly how do your complaints make the HOA Anti-Mustachian? Where in the MMM Creed does it say that it gives you a free pass to be disrespectful and disobedient of the law? Doing anything unlawful that results in unnecessary fines (speeding, drunk driving, even parking tickets) is what's anti-mustachian. Being an asshole just because you don't like the rules is just being an asshole, not a Mustachian. You could have parked your bike in the garage, backyard or even in the house. All of which would have been safer, more secure, and in compliance with HOA Rules. Protecting your assets, now that's mustachian.

The law?  Really?  But either way, it's right here:  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/

bacchi

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2014, 11:10:24 PM »
Why is the defense for HOAs always that they keep the place clean and home values are protected? Maybe having trash in the street is a problem when living in an unincorporated area? Do these types of neighborhoods just attract un-neighborly asses that would paint boobies on houses?

My street lights are changed. Cats wander around without a leash. The street is swept of leaves at least twice a year. I could give a fuck if someone leaves their trash can out a day past the pickup. People even park their bikes on their front porches! (This one time, someone painted their door BLUE without getting permission! I know, seriously.) Yet, values continue to rise, even when the house down the street has a door upright in their front yard as "art" (and, really, it is pretty cool).

HOA boards are only a siren call for wannabe dictators and busybodies. I've seen their capricious behavior far too often.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 12:05:57 AM by bacchi »

trailrated

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2014, 11:23:58 PM »
But wait! There's more...
Exactly how do your complaints make the HOA Anti-Mustachian? Where in the MMM Creed does it say that it gives you a free pass to be disrespectful and disobedient of the law? Doing anything unlawful that results in unnecessary fines (speeding, drunk driving, even parking tickets) is what's anti-mustachian. Being an asshole just because you don't like the rules is just being an asshole, not a Mustachian. You could have parked your bike in the garage, backyard or even in the house. All of which would have been safer, more secure, and in compliance with HOA Rules. Protecting your assets, now that's mustachian.

The law?  Really?  But either way, it's right here:  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/

Zing! beat me to it :)

okashira

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2014, 11:46:00 PM »
Sorry, OP, zero sympathy for your "situation" from my perspective. Your sister CHOSE to buy a house there and legally knew what she was getting into. For you to come visit and rail against the rules of her HOA is absolutely ridiculous. You have no business arguing against them because you have no skin in the game. Shame on you! This is not a responsible way to act. If you don't like that your sister chose to buy a house with an HOA, then blame HER, not the HOA. She is legally responsible for the actions of her guests with regards to the rules. Says so right there in the fine print. Please, go stay in that hotel and just visit your sister. But don't stay overnight.

This thread deserves a facepunch and a complainypants t-shirt.

Now, let it be known that I agree that HOA's can be a total PITA, which is why people should read all the supporting documents before they buy. They must understand that the rules will apply to them and to their guests. Once they purchase/rent, they should *gasp* attend those pesky monthly and annual meetings. If you don't like it, don't buy it/rent it/visit it for a week.

I understand where you are coming from, but given the level at crazy-factor of the HOA given by OP, I can sympathize with their complaining.
I mean, can't let someone stay over at your own out without permission? Please?
And following the guy because he was biking? I would have let that old guy have it.

Dicey

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2014, 01:31:23 AM »
But wait! There's more...
Exactly how do your complaints make the HOA Anti-Mustachian? Where in the MMM Creed does it say that it gives you a free pass to be disrespectful and disobedient of the law? Doing anything unlawful that results in unnecessary fines (speeding, drunk driving, even parking tickets) is what's anti-mustachian. Being an asshole just because you don't like the rules is just being an asshole, not a Mustachian. You could have parked your bike in the garage, backyard or even in the house. All of which would have been safer, more secure, and in compliance with HOA Rules. Protecting your assets, now that's mustachian.

The law?  Really?  But either way, it's right here:  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/

Not much experience with HOAs? Yes, the LAW. Run afoul enough of your HOA and you can find your ass in serious legal trouble. 

And while I loved the article you cited when it was originally published, it doesn't really apply in this situation. You see, nobody holds a gun to your head and  forces you to buy (or even visit) a property within an HOA. Should you chose to do so of your own free will, then you and your guests must bear the burden of obeying the rules. Period.

I own two homes. One has an oppressive HOA that royally pisses me off at times, but the place always looks immaculate. Our primary home does not have an HOA. It is three times more expensive and the neighborhood is plagued with assholes who park five or more non-op vehicles in their yards. My immediate neighbor (2-3 ops + 5 non-ops) trimmed a tree that grows over into our yard last May. He piled the cuttings in his driveway and threw a piece of white plastic lattice over them. Yeah, looks really nice. The rest of his yard clippings are stacked against their house in huge black plastic bags. There are at least thirty boxes stacked on their porch, plus a suitcase and an ironing board. There's a full length mirror propped haphazardly against the garage door, which is a potential fire hazard, since it's directly behind the tinder-dry tree branches. Sometimes I wonder which is worse, HOA or no HOA? No "wrong" answer unless you buy into an HOA and then proceed to think the rules shouldn't apply to you.

MooseOutFront

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2014, 07:49:12 AM »
Sorry, OP, zero sympathy for your "situation" from my perspective. Your sister CHOSE to buy a house there and legally knew what she was getting into. For you to come visit and rail against the rules of her HOA is absolutely ridiculous. You have no business arguing against them because you have no skin in the game. Shame on you! This is not a responsible way to act. If you don't like that your sister chose to buy a house with an HOA, then blame HER, not the HOA. She is legally responsible for the actions of her guests with regards to the rules. Says so right there in the fine print. Please, go stay in that hotel and just visit your sister. But don't stay overnight.

This thread deserves a facepunch and a complainypants t-shirt.

Now, let it be known that I agree that HOA's can be a total PITA, which is why people should read all the supporting documents before they buy. They must understand that the rules will apply to them and to their guests. Once they purchase/rent, they should *gasp* attend those pesky monthly and annual meetings. If you don't like it, don't buy it/rent it/visit it for a week.
strange interpretation of a perfectly reasonable rant by the OP.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2014, 10:39:39 AM »
My HOA like most is a bunch of hilarious itty-bitty Hitlers upheld by even ittier-bittier Hitlers who hide inside their houses peeping from behind drawn curtains and calling in INFRACTIONS. We got a bunch of classist nonsensical rules but my very favorite one is "no pickup trucks allowed" because when the development was built in the 1960s only unsightly and undesirable poors drove trucks. Now obviously that's not the case anymore and there have actually been a few times it's gone to court over whether the HOA is permitted to distinguish between e.g. a Cadillac Escalade (allowed) and a Cadillac Escalade EXT (FORBIDDEN!!). That was my favorite case because the judge described the rule as "farcically whimsical" in his ruling. He ruled against the HOA so they had to change that rule but they did so only for that one specific neighborhood, out of 15, so presumably there will have to be 14 more cases before they stop dicking with people for no reason.

Anyway it's all fine if you have a sense of humor about it but it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite. It's no mistake that HOAs in southern states have the widest legal authority (it's common for houses to be foreclosed on against a few hundred dollars of fees, often when the homeowner is deployed overseas, sick, or otherwise unable to defend the property in court). They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 10:41:31 AM by franklin w. dixon »

franklin w. dixon

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2014, 10:45:39 AM »
My all-time favorite HOA story is this one http://consumerist.com/2013/02/11/how-a-homeowners-association-went-bankrupt-because-of-one-obama-yard-sign/

Because it's just the epitome of clowntown dumbass rule bosses that run HOAs shooting themselves in their own idiot foot for what? Literally nothing. Just bankrupt yourself for no reason. "woo hoo #yolo" HOA chairman Chuck E. Cheeze was heard to remark.

sol

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2014, 10:51:59 AM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.

zapatista

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2014, 10:57:21 AM »
I should put up a sign in my neighborhood announcing NE Park Hill Denver, A Covenant Controlled Community. It would probably take about 15 minutes for the signed to be tagged or alternatively taken apart with a shotgun. I'm very happy mowing my weeds once a month and property values have doubled since I bought here (80207 zip code) November of 2008.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2014, 11:02:29 AM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.
Race and class are obviously very tightly correlated in the United States, to the point that for practical purposes racism and classism are often the same thing. Most cities are extremely segregated by race and HOA barriers (and the almighty god of property values which HOAs worship) are a large part of why. No, HOAs are no longer permitted to have racial clauses in their bylaws, but it turns out they don't need to http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:04:45 AM by franklin w. dixon »

CDP45

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2014, 11:06:55 AM »
I would highly recommend NOT purchasing within an HOA for many reasons in addition to all the snitching and hate and discontent.

Since many mustachians plan to have a paid off home as part of their retirement, HOAs present a threat to owning it "free and clear." There are countless cases across the country where these insane complaints and fines lead to liens against the home.
Additionally HOAs have the power to levy increasing annual "dues" and also assessments. Basically if the HOA needs money, they can just send a bill to everyone. This is more of a threat in condos where there is a large value of HOA owned buildings, but some HOAs have clubhouses and pools etc.

Also if the HOA is engaged in litigation, this is often a deal-breaker for banks to lend to seller if your trying to escape the Reich, which basically eliminates most of the potential buyers of your property. The difference with HOAs if that the homeowner has very little control over the litigation and is at the mercy of the idiot board. 

Also there are many examples of HOAs taking homeowners to court to press foreclosures and auctions for unpaid dues and fees.

Therefore probably not smart to give away legal rights to your property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to a bunch of wanna-be brownshirts.

If you want better neighbors, buy in a more expensive area.

Rural

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2014, 11:08:27 AM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.


You think this, reasonably enough, because you're in the Pacific Northwest. It's probably true there.


(White, southern, and not in an HOA, FWIW)

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2014, 12:12:50 PM »
I would highly recommend NOT purchasing within an HOA for many reasons in addition to all the snitching and hate and discontent.

Since many mustachians plan to have a paid off home as part of their retirement, HOAs present a threat to owning it "free and clear." There are countless cases across the country where these insane complaints and fines lead to liens against the home.
Additionally HOAs have the power to levy increasing annual "dues" and also assessments. Basically if the HOA needs money, they can just send a bill to everyone. This is more of a threat in condos where there is a large value of HOA owned buildings, but some HOAs have clubhouses and pools etc.

Also if the HOA is engaged in litigation, this is often a deal-breaker for banks to lend to seller if your trying to escape the Reich, which basically eliminates most of the potential buyers of your property. The difference with HOAs if that the homeowner has very little control over the litigation and is at the mercy of the idiot board. 

Also there are many examples of HOAs taking homeowners to court to press foreclosures and auctions for unpaid dues and fees.

Therefore probably not smart to give away legal rights to your property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to a bunch of wanna-be brownshirts.

If you want better neighbors, buy in a more expensive area.
There are many places in the country where it's not reasonably possible to buy a home without being subject to covenants. I live where I do because it's the only place reasonably close to work that I can afford. It's all well and good to go live in the forest with bears once you don't gotta have a job but for people who work (and especially those who don't want to car commute 20 miles) there are often limited options.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2014, 12:14:14 PM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.


You think this, reasonably enough, because you're in the Pacific Northwest. It's probably true there.


(White, southern, and not in an HOA, FWIW)

White, Southern, and in an HOA and have to say that you are painting the South and HOAs with too broad of a brush.  We have white, black, Asian, and Indian neighbors, and I have never seen the racism that is being depicted by the last few posters. We have several recreational areas in our neighborhood like a pool, tennis courts, and a playground that we pay dues to maintain.  If someone is having issues, neighbors are more likely to go mow their grass for them or help them out than call the HOA to report them. 

BTW, I grew up in the country where it didn't really matter if your neighbor had 6 cars on blocks, never mowed their grass, or played music into the wee hours of the morning because you couldn't see them or hear them anyway.  I now live on a third of an acre sandwiched between two houses (wooded area behind the house though - woot!), and it's a whole different animal.  If my neighbor never mows their grass or parties all night long, it does affect me directly.  After living in another neighborhood without an HOA, I saw how bad it could be. 

franklin w. dixon

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2014, 12:16:45 PM »
Ironically I suspect that I can afford to live there at least in part because the HOA's arbitrary rules and notoriety for being jerks has actually driven property values down compared to other neighborhoods nearby. Excellent work, everyone. You did it.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2014, 12:55:37 PM »
HOAs are one of my favorite topics.  :-)  They're a very attractive idea at first, but then it all goes downhill...

1) They're driven by fear.  People invest all they can into their house and the promise of an HOA helps alleviate that fear of loss.

2) HOAers can't read fine print.  I don't know anyone yet that hasn't moved into one and then been mad about some rule in the big long list that they didn't bother to read before signing on the dotted line.  True about all contracts I guess, but signing a contract on where you plan on living for an extended period of time you'd think would get one to read the details...

3) Even those that do read the fine print at first are often bit years down the road due to lack of foresight.  Example is requiring all vehicles to be in the garage (a very common HOA requirement).  This works out great for the young couple with young child that moved in.  Well, right up until they have 2 teenagers that they then buy cars for and start violating the HOA by parking them outside in the driveway...

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2014, 01:07:38 PM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.


You think this, reasonably enough, because you're in the Pacific Northwest. It's probably true there.


(White, southern, and not in an HOA, FWIW)

White, Southern, and in an HOA and have to say that you are painting the South and HOAs with too broad of a brush.  We have white, black, Asian, and Indian neighbors, and I have never seen the racism that is being depicted by the last few posters. We have several recreational areas in our neighborhood like a pool, tennis courts, and a playground that we pay dues to maintain.  If someone is having issues, neighbors are more likely to go mow their grass for them or help them out than call the HOA to report them. 
A white southerner who has never seen racism?? Well case closed! Guess I won't be needing any of THESE anymore *dumps the 28,000 fair housing complaints filed in 2012 directly into the garbage*

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2014, 01:20:39 PM »
Hello all

As the OP on this thread I've been reading the responses but haven't had a chance to comment back yet.  I am trying to absorb the opinions without making fly-off-the-cuff responses.

A few points:
My post was clearly a rant, and I stated as such.  This of course means it was a bit complainy-pants.  Point taken, this was a complainy-pants post, but I did explicitly state that in the beginning.

HOWEVER
My central issue with this HOA (and with many HOAs in general) is that they frequently assume powers that they do not have, are illegal to enforce in the first place, and are answerable to no one (unless you have the time/energy/guts to take them to court, which very few people ever do).
Specifically in this case I am P*ssed off that I received threats for parking on a public street.  This is not a gated community and the streets are maintained by tax revenue by the state.  As such, I have as much right to park there as anyone, but my 10 year old dented vehicle doesn't fit their image, and so I get threatening letters left on my windshield.

Regarding the comments that I should be annoyed at my sister and not the HOA, and that she knowingly agreed to live under such restrictions, I would argue that this is not the case.  As pointed out by others, it's not easy for a buyer to know whether the neighborhood has a "good" HOA or an oppressive one.  My sister has been even more upset over this course of events.  After receiving the threatening letters she went back and looked up the HOA rules, which consist of a 2-page document with about 20 fairly broad rules.  I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the document in front of me, but the apparent rationelle for ticketing my bicycle was a rule that said "homeowners are to keep their lawns and gardens in good condition and free of debris".  Somehow, some neighborhood vigilante determined that my bike (which is shiny and in immaculate condition) was "debris" and therefore could not be kept there.
Likewise, the only mention of guests or guest permits anywhere in the document seems to be a reference that "HOA dues will be based on the number of people who reside in each home".  Again, I think someone used this to justify charging my sister for my presence there.

Finally, without going too philisophical here, but think that citizens have a duty to stand up to people abusing their power, which is exactly what I believe this HOA is doing.  I certainly conceed that "good" HOAs exist and that they can be useful for keeping order up, crime down, and people happy when run correctly.  BUt I don't believe that is what is happening here.  My sister intends to raise the issue (three months from now!) at the next HOA meeting, and I've sent my "traffic violation" notice to the DMV and gotten a response that they have absolutely no authority to ticket vehicles there.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2014, 01:22:12 PM »

There are many places in the country where it's not reasonably possible to buy a home without being subject to covenants. I live where I do because it's the only place reasonably close to work that I can afford. It's all well and good to go live in the forest with bears once you don't gotta have a job but for people who work (and especially those who don't want to car commute 20 miles) there are often limited options.
[/quote]

Wow that's unfortunate. For everyone reading this who does have a choice, please carefully consider the consequences of the contract your signing. Please review the thousands of cases of harassment and fines suffered by homeowners just going about their lives.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2014, 02:01:03 PM »
Quote
There are many places in the country where it's not reasonably possible to buy a home without being subject to covenants. I live where I do because it's the only place reasonably close to work that I can afford. It's all well and good to go live in the forest with bears once you don't gotta have a job but for people who work (and especially those who don't want to car commute 20 miles) there are often limited options.
[/quote]

I'd say this describes my sister's situation perfectly.  She and her husband chose this house primarily because it allows them him to walk to work, her to take public transit.  All neighborhoods in the area seem to have HOAs, and in her words their HOA "seemed to be reasonable when we signed".  It's apparently gotten much worse as a select few keep filing 'violations' using broad leaps in the HOA contract to justify them.

crispy

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2014, 02:05:50 PM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.


You think this, reasonably enough, because you're in the Pacific Northwest. It's probably true there.


(White, southern, and not in an HOA, FWIW)

White, Southern, and in an HOA and have to say that you are painting the South and HOAs with too broad of a brush.  We have white, black, Asian, and Indian neighbors, and I have never seen the racism that is being depicted by the last few posters. We have several recreational areas in our neighborhood like a pool, tennis courts, and a playground that we pay dues to maintain.  If someone is having issues, neighbors are more likely to go mow their grass for them or help them out than call the HOA to report them. 
A white southerner who has never seen racism?? Well case closed! Guess I won't be needing any of THESE anymore *dumps the 28,000 fair housing complaints filed in 2012 directly into the garbage*

Where is a eye-rolling smiley when you need it? Please save your drama for another day. Did I say I have never seen racism?  No, I said I have never seen racism in regards to my specific HOA, and pointedly stated that saying that Racism and HOAs go hand-in-hand was painting both the South and HOAs with too broad of a brush. Just like you choose to equate HOAs with racism and classism, I choose to think that most people don't want trashy neighbors no matter their race, class or creed. 

Furthermore, I have known my share of racists throughout my time (and am, unfortunately, related to a few), and amazingly, many of them are not from the South.  Shocking, I know.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2014, 03:11:43 PM »
Oh, I know of a good handful of northerners who are more racist than anyone I've encountered here since the 70s or 80s. That's definitely true, just as it's surely true that there are likely to be HOAs without any underlying racist intents or behaviors in the South. But racism here has gotten quieter and subtler over the last thirty years or so, and patches of non-racist populations are forming. It's becoming clear that things will very likely be orders of magnitude better in another thirty years. Doesn't mean there aren't racist motivations behind many HOAs in the South.


I was also responding to a poster in the Pacific Northwest, which just has a different culture than anywhere in the East, north or south. One of the good things about that culture is a distinct lack of racism, relatively speaking. Hope we get that way in my lifetime, and I'm beginning to believe it's possible, but denying the problems that still exist won't help with that.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2014, 03:27:26 PM »
My HOA like most is a bunch of hilarious itty-bitty Hitlers upheld by even ittier-bittier Hitlers who hide inside their houses peeping from behind drawn curtains and calling in INFRACTIONS. We got a bunch of classist nonsensical rules but my very favorite one is "no pickup trucks allowed" because when the development was built in the 1960s only unsightly and undesirable poors drove trucks. Now obviously that's not the case anymore and there have actually been a few times it's gone to court over whether the HOA is permitted to distinguish between e.g. a Cadillac Escalade (allowed) and a Cadillac Escalade EXT (FORBIDDEN!!). That was my favorite case because the judge described the rule as "farcically whimsical" in his ruling. He ruled against the HOA so they had to change that rule but they did so only for that one specific neighborhood, out of 15, so presumably there will have to be 14 more cases before they stop dicking with people for no reason.

Anyway it's all fine if you have a sense of humor about it but it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite. It's no mistake that HOAs in southern states have the widest legal authority (it's common for houses to be foreclosed on against a few hundred dollars of fees, often when the homeowner is deployed overseas, sick, or otherwise unable to defend the property in court). They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

LOL, this is ironically hilarious.
An HOA that bans massive trucks / SUVS. That's actually quite mustachian. LOL!!

okashira

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2014, 03:32:51 PM »
it's important to remember what HOAs are: weapons of class and race privilege against the poor and nonwhite... They were created to enforce segregation and white supremacy and to a large extent that's what they still do.

I certainly buy the classist argument, but the racist one not so much.  Despite the original intent of HOAs, I don't think most people are so worked about race anymore and would much rather have a Korean dentist for a neighbor than a white family on welfare.  Which is why HOAs make rules against signs of poverty, not against signs of race.
Race and class are obviously very tightly correlated in the United States, to the point that for practical purposes racism and classism are often the same thing. Most cities are extremely segregated by race and HOA barriers (and the almighty god of property values which HOAs worship) are a large part of why. No, HOAs are no longer permitted to have racial clauses in their bylaws, but it turns out they don't need to http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/

Ah, so because race and class have some level of correlation, I suppose we should ban all forms of "classism", too?

Why don't you go ahead and blame HOA's for the causing the "correlation," too while you're at it?

okashira

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2014, 04:11:27 PM »
My HOA is not very oppressive, although they have some certainty anti-mustachian traits.
Such as, no metal roofs (nope gotta use less durable, less efficient oil&gas sourced shingles); no solar panels.

The neighborhood itself is kinda dual mustachian / anti in some ways.
It's has good schools and cheap houses/property, which is pretty mustachian. Location is decent.

However, I am 90% sure I am the ONLY one in the neighborhood who uses a manual reel lawnmower (and battery powered weed-eater).
And there are a disproportionate amount of huge SUV's and trucks. People here spend more $ on their vehicles then their houses, literally.
When the pool is open during the peak of summer, you'll see the parking lot PACKED full of massive vehicles of people who by definition choose to drive the 1/2 mile to the pool in their gas guzzler rather then bike/walk. :-(

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2014, 04:25:14 PM »
My HOA is not very oppressive, although they have some certainty anti-mustachian traits.
Such as, no metal roofs (nope gotta use less durable, less efficient oil&gas sourced shingles); no solar panels.

Having recently been through the process of installing solar panels in a neighborhood with an HOA, I can assure you that you have far more rights than you think you do.  The federal government is currently subsidizing solar panel installations to encourage adoption.  An HOA is not allowed to be in conflict with federal law.

Depending on where you live, there's a good chance that even your state or city government has specifically passed legislation guaranteeing a homeowner's right to install solar panels despite an HOA's objection.  Here in Washington, you can even install them on the street-facing roofs of buildings on the historic register.

In my case it wasn't a problem.  I sent my HOA a notice that I was installing solar panels.  A month later the HOA president called and said he thought I was setting good example for the neighborhood.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2014, 04:31:02 PM »
I feel for the OPs sister in getting fined for something not written explicitly in the HOA documents.  Makes me think that there are a second set of bylaws somewhere, or she has a good arguement that all fines need to be revoked and detailed bylaws set up.

For my dh and I, we have lived in a few HOAs.  You really can't ignore them if you want to live in an apt or townhouse.  Each community needs common rules, and shares cost like garbage or snow removal.   Our solution was to be on the committee each time yo keep it real.  The are some crazy old people out there with no life!

Funny story:

At one (townhouse), my husband was in charge of the complaints letters.  He was told one month that a unit needed a letter about a red painted front door.. Although behind a white storm door, all exterior changes required approval and this was a black or white paint only sort of complex, and the door was no longer identical.

He put it off, and next month meeting he said that he forgot, thought the owner may be argumentative, but he would do so and promised to get to it. A week later, he wrote the letter....and handed it to me.    I handed him back the paint brush and white paint.  Lol. (It was his own home).  He reported that all was resolved at his third meeting.

To your comments:
HOA regulations about street parking, and renting to Tennant's are very important because in small lot communities it causes huge problems.  Even street parking because you have teenagers and three cars takes up a lot of space and quickly intrudes on your neighbors.  The reason there was parking available for guests on the street is because of this bylaw. 

My sister has moved homes, and another friend moved because of neighborhood parking issues on the public street.  HOAs try to figure this out, albeit with draconian measures.

 Tenants add a lot of volume to water and trash, and parking, and lots of renters tend to drive up neighborhood population and noise with late night activities or arguing.  ( not a comment about renters, just density of the neighborhood drives impacts to others living there).

DMV has no ticketing there, maybe because the HOA is actually responsible for road repair and bylaws on it?  It is common here that access roads are HOA owned, even when they look like a street with no gate.

Sounds like a picky group.  I would have sis register you,  a brother should not be a problem... you offer to pay for a street parking permit, or pay for a storage locker for sis to empty garage, and park bike and vehicle there.  Meanwhile the added HOA fee is also your responsibility to pay.  Do everything you need to to make this easier for sis.

This is not a "no laundry line in backyard " or "no petunias" sort of bylaw..   The ones you mention may actually make sense if better executed and explained.

Oh, and yes, I have had police car slowly follow me as I was jogging at 6:30 am on Christmas morning..  Anything unusual to cut the boredom is grounds for being followed, so don't take it personally unless it is obvious that they only follow you and not any other cyclist.

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Re: anti-mustachian HOAs
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2014, 05:45:44 PM »
At my job, a guy who was universally known as the most asshole-ish, nitpicking, argumentative and bizarre prick who ever walked the face of the Earth -- wait... for... it... -- was in charge of one of the neighborhood HOA's. Several other work colleagues lived within that HOA community, and reported that they saw him walking the neighborhood every evening with clipboard in hand, notating violations. Many had been subject to his whims for ridiculous, so-called transgressions. I wouldn't be surprised to find that HOA's attract assholes who enjoy nitpicking others.